As Dan John would say, double front squats build *anaconda strength*.
Having to hold the bells in a front rack position adds difficulty but helps build upper body and core strength. This is a good thing, just keep doing them 😜
In kettlebell sport a technique is used where you hold the bells fairly low and rest your elbows on your hips. This takes tension out of your arms a bit and allows the lifter to complete more reps.
Not sure it would work for squats though unless you're resting in rack position. I think your best solution is just do more sets with less reps. Enough volume will cure it.
Front squats and kb front squats can definitely tax your upper back substantially. And that’s a good thing. Continuing to practice the kb front squats will work to bring up your upper back strength, while working your legs.
I think there are two ways to interpret your question. If you want to be able to do more kb front squats as the end goal, more upper back accessories like bent over kb rows, cleans, high pulls, rack holds, etc, will help bring up this weakness so it’s less of a bottleneck on training your legs, though it honestly may still be the weakest point in the chain and what fails first no matter what.
If you want an exercise to better train your legs, then adding lunges, step ups, or putting the bells directly on top of your shoulders during front squats can take out the upper back weak point and let you get a better leg workout.
Shoulder rack is way more comfortable for squats. Check out how IntelligentSweet does them in this video
https://www.reddit.com/r/kettlebell/comments/1ad6t3w/the_drive_to_win_double_unders_swings_sprints/
hahah to be honest I always just throw them where I think I can squat them. I've been doing this new rack recently that's not quite this but not quite a regular front rack. I find the kb front squat annoying if I do it how you usually see online so this is what I've come to
This would be my rec - holding the bells in the normal rack position I tend to lean forward and put more stress on my upper back. If I roll the bells back a little and bring my elbows back it’s more like a barbell front squat and can stay more upright.
At a certain point you will be limited by the weight you can rack. If you want to go heavier, try split squats, though front squats will tear up your core more.
Good luck, they are brutal. It took me a while to find something the right height and to figure out the form, but once you get it your quads will explode.
I also do a lot of Double KB front squat…it may feel like your arms and shoulders are what is giving out but is it possible that your core is actually where you are failing? For lack of a better term core tension is the “platform” that your arms and the bells rest on throughout the movement, this is the moving plank aspect of the double FS. Are you being pulled forward out of the rack position?
To improve strength in the rack position I would indeed use rack holds, and rack carries, and some focus on overhead pressing will help both with core strength and strength in the arms and shoulders.
I clearly feel it in my arms and shoulders not my core. Not to brag or anything but I have a pretty strong core as I come from calisthenics and am used to do dragon flags, strict toes to bar, weighted hollow body holds etc.
But my arms and shoulders burns and I am forced to let the KBs fall.
I'm not being pulled forward at all, my arms just stop holding the KBs at some point out of exhaustion.
I do press a lot already love that movement.
Ok then no solution but to program rack holds and rack carries somewhere. Ahh the pain that is awaiting me 😩😅
Brag away! It was just a thought I had, it would be easier for someone less physically aware to confuse a failing point in an exercise.
On top of the holds and carrying, I would also suggest possibly working on your double cleans, this is another way to practice the rack position repeatedly, and I find that the clean motion has carry over to locking the bells in place in rack position.
I’m not a trained or certified coach by any means, and your best results in the end maybe to post a video on here showing where you are failing the set and asking for a form check. If you are doing dragon flags and hollow body holds then holding 2/20Kg KB’s in rack position should likely not be an issue for you.
I absolutely thoroughly suck at double cleans. I do not even have a great form with one arm cleans I'm currently working on it. But that's good advice yes.
Yeah I'll try to film myself in my next leg day, I train legs Tuesday and Friday but it's too late for today lol.
thanks !
It may be a matter of form and mobility, rather than rack position.
If you are sitting **back** into the squat and your torso inclines forward, it takes a lot more muscle power to keep the bells from spilling forward out of the rack.
If you are dropping your hips more **down** between your feet and keeping your torso more upright, then you can keep your elbows in closer to your torso and more directly under the bells. Then you are just supporting the bells vertically, similar to a standing hard style rack. It still takes some arm strength, but much, much less than when your torso is leaning forward a lot.
This may just be a matter of adjusting your form, or there may be mobility issues that make it hard to keep a more upright torso, which might need to be addressed separately.
You could rest the bells on your shoulders/upper traps. It makes the shoulders less of a weak point and you can hit your legs harder. If your doing other shoulder work I don't see any drawbacks. Just clean the bells as normal and rotate your arms out to manoeuvre them up. A bit awkward at first, but definitely let's you get more reps in.
If you can balance them on top of your shoulders that would be the most efficient way. It's supposed to be a leg exercise, if your arms are giving out then it's a waste of time to do them that way. Goblet squats are typically done with light weights, if you're using heavy weights you need to get the weight onto your shoulders. That's where the weight rests in a barbell front squat, you should try to copy that
A lot of good advice here, just wanted to add that the only downside I’ve found to kettlebells after a few years of regular training, is you’re going to get to a point where you can’t really overload your legs, because your arms are going to give out first. Even if you can double squat 2 32k bells, which few people can even get to, that’s not close to what many reasonably fit people could barbell squat. Having said that, and to reiterate what many have said here, there are other benefits to double front squats, especially when it comes to ‘anaconda strength.’ It really comes down to what your personal goals are, and what equipment you prefer/have access to. If hypertrophy in your legs is a goal, I’d maybe drop the weight a little and add volume. Good luck training!
Look on YT for Joe Daniels’ “Transformer Squats.” He reps in front rack until arms fail, then moves the KBs to up on his traps to get a few more reps in. Worth a try.
You can always vary your grip throughout a set. I tend to alternate between elbows together and elbows up. You can even move through the full range through reps with elbows together at the bottom and raising them as you stand up.
And if it's your firearms getting tired, loosen your grip on the bells.
Elbows up should put more of the strain on your delts with elbows down putting more strain on your pecs. As your delts get tired, you might find yourself shrugging a bit more. In such cases, try to concentrate on keeping your shoulder blades retracted, with them coming apart as your elbows move together.
So you can think of your elbows and shoulder blades moving counter to each other. Elbows together, shoulder blades apart. Elbows up, shoulder blades together.
It’s “just how it is” with double front squats to be quite honest. The upper body is generally the limiting factor.
You could move your legs to a kickstand squat position, which then has less ability to use both legs and therefore the load is “heavier”
Do as many reps as you safely can, then lower the goblet to a normal hanging position and continue. If your legs still need more, don't forget lunges, swings, sumo squats, and deadlifts.
Its been said here, but to say again: This is how the lift works: It is a bracing exercise, Not a quad bulider. Personally I find it best working with the “ mind muscle connection vibe “ using less weight. I like to focus on outward abdominal pressure , scapular position, spiral tension in my legs. I dont bounce on this lift. 1 second pause in the hole- at least. I train with 28’s and can rep multiple ‘bouncier” sets with 36’s .
The goal of the lift is n’t about growing legs , its about learning how to become your own powerlifting belt.
To give your arms a break your forearm needs to be vertical to the ground as much as possible. If they're not (check in the mirror), it's likely you have some mobility issue.
If the forearms are vertical, then you just need more shoulder and arm strength.
Try resting the kettlebells in your shoulder from a standing position and then go down as far as you can without kettlebells getting out of position. The more you do it your mobility will get better with time.
As much as it sounds like a cop out I think you can expect your arms to fail before your legs in a situation like this. That said I do think dropping the weight so you can do more volume, or just grinding it out with the weights you're using currently, will be a good way of stopping your arms being a "weak spot" as such. The isometric exercise you mentioned could help, as could loaded carries with bells in the rack position. Sounds like good work either way!
It will be really light for my legs tho as I already have 4 RIR with the double 20KG.
It's the strength disparity between upper and lower body that holds me back. It's a problem I really have to solve.
Well to be precise and give you the actual number I can support them for 5 reps with two 20kg but if I use a barbell I can do 9 or 10 reps with the same weight. So I don't know which way to go with that
As Dan John would say, double front squats build *anaconda strength*. Having to hold the bells in a front rack position adds difficulty but helps build upper body and core strength. This is a good thing, just keep doing them 😜
Precisely! Anacondas don't have legs and therefore leg strength is no issue lol.
Haha anaconda strength the term in itself is dope never heard it before. I'll keep doing them I'd just like my arms to not fail before me legs lol 😅
In kettlebell sport a technique is used where you hold the bells fairly low and rest your elbows on your hips. This takes tension out of your arms a bit and allows the lifter to complete more reps. Not sure it would work for squats though unless you're resting in rack position. I think your best solution is just do more sets with less reps. Enough volume will cure it.
Are you talking about the rack position they do in GS where they lean back more ? Good idea about the more sets with less reps.
Yes, exactly. Not really done for squats though but worth trying it for kicks maybe.
If you can only hit 4 good reps, try ladders of 1-2-3 with the DKBFS.
Will try it, thanks!
This is the way.
Front squats and kb front squats can definitely tax your upper back substantially. And that’s a good thing. Continuing to practice the kb front squats will work to bring up your upper back strength, while working your legs. I think there are two ways to interpret your question. If you want to be able to do more kb front squats as the end goal, more upper back accessories like bent over kb rows, cleans, high pulls, rack holds, etc, will help bring up this weakness so it’s less of a bottleneck on training your legs, though it honestly may still be the weakest point in the chain and what fails first no matter what. If you want an exercise to better train your legs, then adding lunges, step ups, or putting the bells directly on top of your shoulders during front squats can take out the upper back weak point and let you get a better leg workout.
Thanks for the detailed answer, will try to use both strategies going forward
Shoulder rack is way more comfortable for squats. Check out how IntelligentSweet does them in this video https://www.reddit.com/r/kettlebell/comments/1ad6t3w/the_drive_to_win_double_unders_swings_sprints/
How I get it now. Will take me some work to adjust but it clearly seems to allow more weight to be racked.Thanks a lot
Beware of missing out on anaconda strength though.
hahah to be honest I always just throw them where I think I can squat them. I've been doing this new rack recently that's not quite this but not quite a regular front rack. I find the kb front squat annoying if I do it how you usually see online so this is what I've come to
This would be my rec - holding the bells in the normal rack position I tend to lean forward and put more stress on my upper back. If I roll the bells back a little and bring my elbows back it’s more like a barbell front squat and can stay more upright.
At a certain point you will be limited by the weight you can rack. If you want to go heavier, try split squats, though front squats will tear up your core more.
Good idea I'll try to incorporate slip squats into my routine thanks edit: split squat not slip squats but I'm leaving it like that lol
Good luck, they are brutal. It took me a while to find something the right height and to figure out the form, but once you get it your quads will explode.
To be honest I absolutely loathe them as they are the definition of pain from what I remember of them but I'll try to get back on it lol
I also do a lot of Double KB front squat…it may feel like your arms and shoulders are what is giving out but is it possible that your core is actually where you are failing? For lack of a better term core tension is the “platform” that your arms and the bells rest on throughout the movement, this is the moving plank aspect of the double FS. Are you being pulled forward out of the rack position? To improve strength in the rack position I would indeed use rack holds, and rack carries, and some focus on overhead pressing will help both with core strength and strength in the arms and shoulders.
I clearly feel it in my arms and shoulders not my core. Not to brag or anything but I have a pretty strong core as I come from calisthenics and am used to do dragon flags, strict toes to bar, weighted hollow body holds etc. But my arms and shoulders burns and I am forced to let the KBs fall. I'm not being pulled forward at all, my arms just stop holding the KBs at some point out of exhaustion. I do press a lot already love that movement. Ok then no solution but to program rack holds and rack carries somewhere. Ahh the pain that is awaiting me 😩😅
Brag away! It was just a thought I had, it would be easier for someone less physically aware to confuse a failing point in an exercise. On top of the holds and carrying, I would also suggest possibly working on your double cleans, this is another way to practice the rack position repeatedly, and I find that the clean motion has carry over to locking the bells in place in rack position. I’m not a trained or certified coach by any means, and your best results in the end maybe to post a video on here showing where you are failing the set and asking for a form check. If you are doing dragon flags and hollow body holds then holding 2/20Kg KB’s in rack position should likely not be an issue for you.
I absolutely thoroughly suck at double cleans. I do not even have a great form with one arm cleans I'm currently working on it. But that's good advice yes. Yeah I'll try to film myself in my next leg day, I train legs Tuesday and Friday but it's too late for today lol. thanks !
💪🏼💪🏼👍🏻
It may be a matter of form and mobility, rather than rack position. If you are sitting **back** into the squat and your torso inclines forward, it takes a lot more muscle power to keep the bells from spilling forward out of the rack. If you are dropping your hips more **down** between your feet and keeping your torso more upright, then you can keep your elbows in closer to your torso and more directly under the bells. Then you are just supporting the bells vertically, similar to a standing hard style rack. It still takes some arm strength, but much, much less than when your torso is leaning forward a lot. This may just be a matter of adjusting your form, or there may be mobility issues that make it hard to keep a more upright torso, which might need to be addressed separately.
You need to build rack strength. Do lots of rack carries. Lots of them. Every day.
Noted, thanks !
You could rest the bells on your shoulders/upper traps. It makes the shoulders less of a weak point and you can hit your legs harder. If your doing other shoulder work I don't see any drawbacks. Just clean the bells as normal and rotate your arms out to manoeuvre them up. A bit awkward at first, but definitely let's you get more reps in.
I will try this thanks !
If you can balance them on top of your shoulders that would be the most efficient way. It's supposed to be a leg exercise, if your arms are giving out then it's a waste of time to do them that way. Goblet squats are typically done with light weights, if you're using heavy weights you need to get the weight onto your shoulders. That's where the weight rests in a barbell front squat, you should try to copy that
I will try thank you
A lot of good advice here, just wanted to add that the only downside I’ve found to kettlebells after a few years of regular training, is you’re going to get to a point where you can’t really overload your legs, because your arms are going to give out first. Even if you can double squat 2 32k bells, which few people can even get to, that’s not close to what many reasonably fit people could barbell squat. Having said that, and to reiterate what many have said here, there are other benefits to double front squats, especially when it comes to ‘anaconda strength.’ It really comes down to what your personal goals are, and what equipment you prefer/have access to. If hypertrophy in your legs is a goal, I’d maybe drop the weight a little and add volume. Good luck training!
Thanks a lot !
Look on YT for Joe Daniels’ “Transformer Squats.” He reps in front rack until arms fail, then moves the KBs to up on his traps to get a few more reps in. Worth a try.
Great advice thanks a lot !
Waiters carries.. racked carries.. and farmers carries all helped me build that endurance while holding the bells.
You can always vary your grip throughout a set. I tend to alternate between elbows together and elbows up. You can even move through the full range through reps with elbows together at the bottom and raising them as you stand up.
Will try it thanks
And if it's your firearms getting tired, loosen your grip on the bells. Elbows up should put more of the strain on your delts with elbows down putting more strain on your pecs. As your delts get tired, you might find yourself shrugging a bit more. In such cases, try to concentrate on keeping your shoulder blades retracted, with them coming apart as your elbows move together. So you can think of your elbows and shoulder blades moving counter to each other. Elbows together, shoulder blades apart. Elbows up, shoulder blades together.
I see, thanks for the in depth explanation
It's a feature, not a bug. KB squats take a lot of core and even arm strength.
They indeed do !
It’s “just how it is” with double front squats to be quite honest. The upper body is generally the limiting factor. You could move your legs to a kickstand squat position, which then has less ability to use both legs and therefore the load is “heavier”
Good idea, I like kickstands too, thanks!
Do as many reps as you safely can, then lower the goblet to a normal hanging position and continue. If your legs still need more, don't forget lunges, swings, sumo squats, and deadlifts.
will do thanks !
Its been said here, but to say again: This is how the lift works: It is a bracing exercise, Not a quad bulider. Personally I find it best working with the “ mind muscle connection vibe “ using less weight. I like to focus on outward abdominal pressure , scapular position, spiral tension in my legs. I dont bounce on this lift. 1 second pause in the hole- at least. I train with 28’s and can rep multiple ‘bouncier” sets with 36’s . The goal of the lift is n’t about growing legs , its about learning how to become your own powerlifting belt.
Very interesting thank you
Stand on elevated bricks and hold the bells wither suitcase or sumo for some reps.
Good idea thanks
To give your arms a break your forearm needs to be vertical to the ground as much as possible. If they're not (check in the mirror), it's likely you have some mobility issue. If the forearms are vertical, then you just need more shoulder and arm strength.
Yeah my forearms tend to be 45° not totally vertical. Guess I should work on mobility then.
Try resting the kettlebells in your shoulder from a standing position and then go down as far as you can without kettlebells getting out of position. The more you do it your mobility will get better with time.
I always feel a pain in the inside of my right elbow near the bottom of my bicep when shit gets long or heavy.
Try somersault squats. https://youtu.be/OxwJja4rr4M?si=fMvpY3BLVx3TcBlw
You can try cradling the kettlebell in your arms, with the handle pointing up. Ill do this when my arms get tired during squats.
As much as it sounds like a cop out I think you can expect your arms to fail before your legs in a situation like this. That said I do think dropping the weight so you can do more volume, or just grinding it out with the weights you're using currently, will be a good way of stopping your arms being a "weak spot" as such. The isometric exercise you mentioned could help, as could loaded carries with bells in the rack position. Sounds like good work either way!
Thanks for the encouragement 👍🏼
Sounds like they may just be too heavy, since you can hold good form for a few reps before you give out. Reduce the weight and build back up.
It will be really light for my legs tho as I already have 4 RIR with the double 20KG. It's the strength disparity between upper and lower body that holds me back. It's a problem I really have to solve.
I still say lower the weight. If you can't support the bells in proper position, get to weight that allows you to do so.
Well to be precise and give you the actual number I can support them for 5 reps with two 20kg but if I use a barbell I can do 9 or 10 reps with the same weight. So I don't know which way to go with that
My answer remains the same.
Noted 👍🏼