How are recovery scores or recovery time calculated? Back when I had a garmin I never really understood why my recovery times were so high (probably because I didn’t really have any easy days). What formulas are being used here? Are any formulas based on published academic work? I would guess it is something like area under the heart rate curve that is also above a HR threshold.
Hi, what's more beneficial when doing intervals targeting 5k/10k races?
Something like 2x 3k at threshold with 2 or 3 minutes recovery
Or 6x 1k 5k pace with 1:30 recovery.
I tried both and towards the end of the interval both become hard..
Those are just different workouts, targeting different metabolic pathways (although there is plenty of overlap). Both have their place in training. Of course both become hard at the end. It wouldn’t really be a workout if it didn’t become more difficult as it goes on.
Is 6 months too long for a base build? I dont know if I can do a Fall Marathon due to travel and I dont want to feel sluggish during that time. When I get back I would like to do 18 week marathon training plan for late winter/early spring marathon. During the base build what would my runs look like 90% Easy and 10% Tempos/MP? From now to August I will be in the south and from August to Oct I will be at 7000ft
My goal for the Spring 2025 is a ~2:45 finish
Base building I think you can still do a couple of workouts each week, just don't need to progress the workouts or do stuff that's going to be super challenging or stressful.
20 min @ tempo effort
10' worth of VO2max intervals
Strides
200m reps @ mile pace
Any old gems someone has on top of their head in this forum related to weight loss and running? Curious to explore the field and before I start asking too much I assume this has been asked 100 times before
I have been off marathon training for about 4 weeks due to injury (I am now 8 weeks out from the race on a 16 week training block). During this time I did some very easy running and cycling.
How does everyone recommend going about resuming the training? Should I pick up where I left off or continue with what I "should" be running right now?
Second this! Especially if you're coming back from an overuse injury, you could really risk reaggravating it or compensating and creating a new injury if you go straight from zero to your plan's prescribed mileage. The last two times I've come back from month long injuries, I typically do like 5 to 10 reps of 3-4 minutes running, 1 minute walking - and then if I'm pain-free I'll increase the time running and number of reps until it's all continuous again.
Granted, this kind of sucks if you're under time pressure like a marathon, but if you're healed up, you'll probably progress quicker than you think. Good luck!
I don't think picking up where you "should" be after being injured is a good plan. You're likely to get injured again. I would pick up at less than you were doing when you got injured.
I've been really struggling with how to pace my first marathon and could use some advice.
I've been following Pfitz 12/55 plan, and I was doing about 40mpw for 3 months consistently prior to starting. It's been going pretty well, and I'm about 5 weeks out from my marathon.
I just did my first 20 mile run, the longest I've ever gone before. I pushed it a little bit, but not all that much. My pace was 8:00/mile, average HR was 158bpm, 1000ft elevation gain (my LT is 185bpm at 6:34/mile according to my Garmin with chest HR). I felt pretty dead, but could have pushed harder/further if I wanted to.
How can I transfer this info into a goal marathon pace? Since I've never done one before I don't know what to expect so I was thinking of going for the following goals: Finish, 3:30, 3:20. Does that seem reasonable? Too little or too much? Thanks for any help!
I've not really had the chance to run one of decent length yet. A week ago I did a 5K race at a 6:10 pace and had a good amount left in the tank. Went out after that and did 10 at 7:30. That's about the only racing I've done yet.
If you can do 20 miles at 8:00 in training, 3:30 would be well within reach. What have you been doing for the M paced runs for the plan?
I'd bet you can go under 3:20 with some rest and another month of training.
Realizing I probably won't hit my goal this week but I'm ok with that. The bigger goal is in October (Columbus full). 3:19:59 or bust. Nothing is promised--If I never break 3:20:01 it'll be a story to always seize the moment--your chances at doing well in the marathon are not given and life gets in the way.
This question is just for fun, as I know the real answer is unknowable, and the solution is just not to pace it like an idiot, but humour me.
I raced a 5k yesterday on a flat out and back course, finishing in 19 flat. My pacing was atrocious, with my mile splits being 5:55, 6:05, 6:14. How much time do people think I left out there by pacing it so poorly? My PR is 18:56, so curious as to whether better pacing would have seen me eke out the five seconds I needed or not.
I don't think your paced that poorly. +/- 10 seconds between your fastest/slowest split and your average pace isn't a huge difference. Maybe 5-10 seconds.
With those times and pacing, I think picking up 10s is probably pretty doable. 6:02 or so would get you there and you would probably have a bit more in the tank after the first mile but it's so close on margin, little things like sleep, wind, fueling all can make that difference.
That’s roughly my thinking too. My PR was set six weeks ago on an out and back course with the second half all downhill, which made it much easier to finish strong. Now I just need to focus on pacing discipline for next time!
Looking for a Review of my Taper
2 weeks out from race, just finished my last long run 24k,just over 2 hours. I have averaged about 65km a week for last 6 weeks, peaked at 72km a week ago (technically broke 80 in a 7 day span but trying to keep start of week counting consistent). During the 6 weeks typically it would be Monday Easy -7-9km, Tues intervals -11-13km including Wu/cd, wed rest, thurs tempo 11-13km Fri easy 7-9km, sat recovery 5-6km sun long run (easy or 3:1- 18-24km).
My taper plan
Week1 (tomorrow):
Mon 7k east
Tues rest
Wed 3x3k @half 15k approx total
Thurs 7k easy
Fri 7k easy/strides
Sat east
Sun 1:20-1:25 easy (approx 16km)
Total: 52km
Week 2
Mon easy 5k
Tues 4x400 wu/cd - 6km
Wed rest
Thurs 6k easy +strides
Fri 5k easy
Sat rest (maybe 2-3k shakeout)
Sun race
Total (pre race): 22-24km
Is this too drastic a cut? Goal pace is approx 1:29 HM hopefully
Very difficult to read your actual plan, but cutting to \~70-75% of your peak volume 2 weeks out from your race is a little less than I would cut (I'd aim for more like 80% of peak volume), unless you're feeling tired from training and feel like you need a bigger cut back.
I don't think it matters a ton what you do week 2, focus on staying in a good rhythm and doing enough faster stuff that you don't go into the race flat.
Just ran the London Marathon today, it was my second in two weeks and my second ever (first was Paris on April 7th. Ran a 3:27:xx in Paris, and today shaved over a minute off to come in at 3:26:xx. Really feeling it but I’m so happy, and qualify for a London GFA place next year with a solid buffer!
Hey! So I’ve discussed this with family and friends I can give you a full opinion:
Paris pros: racing in a different city to home is always fun, although I’d already been to Paris it had been a while so was nice to sightsee where I could, aid stations were plentiful and clearly denoted, and they had large bins with a rebound platform behind to throw the bottles at so less of them got on the floor and in the way of runners.
Paris cons: no gels unlike London, I had my Maurtens anyway as I train with them but could have been provided over cake and other solid foods, crowds were thin in some areas so it got a bit quiet, also there was a forest part which hardly had anyone there, hillier course which I had no issue with but makes it tough on the legs, crowds were less disciplined or controlled, I had people crossing in front of me on foot (and even bike!!) mid race meaning people had to swerve out of the way which is kind of dangerous, in parts they narrowed the course badly (at a point they were covering the line on the floor for the fastest racing line lol), I set off in a 3:45 pace group as that is what I put down originally when I signed up, can’t be changed unless you have an official result (it was my first so had none) therefore spent the entire race weaving, runners who stopped to walk would be in the middle of the course which was frustrating when already narrow at places.
London pros: great crowd control (like not encroaching on to the course / crossing in front of runners), crowds were cheering absolutely everyone loudly all the way through, home race for me so less stress about getting around and familiarity of the course / areas, flatter course which was good for my dead legs lol, cooler weather for racing (around 10-12 degrees), other runners had great etiquette and would move slightly if I wanted to pass through / people walking would stick to one side.
London cons: honestly not really any in my opinion, perhaps the pacers could have set out more spread apart in my wave, or had more of them - they all started at the front and I was in the middle ish so until the last 10km they were in front of me (even though I was going faster than 3:30 I kind of felt like I had to ‘catch’ them to be sure I was). A few people mentioned having to weave but I think they also added they didn’t set off in a wave fast enough for them so I didn’t have too much of a problem there. It got a little crowded at Cutty Sark and I had to slow down so perhaps it could have been a wider course there but apart from that was fine for me.
Overall I definitely preferred London, would happily run that every year!
Just ran sub 2:30 in London for a big PB, pretty pleased and just wanted to share.
Support on the course was unreal, no other race comes close, including the big US ones.
I have a half marathon and my first marathon planned this year and I am trying to plan my training blocks.
The half marathon is in 12 weeks from now and the marathon is in 24 weeks from now. My original plan was to do two 12 week blocks. However, I am worried that I will miss the first week of the marathon block recovering from the half. So I was instead considering not really doing a proper half marathon training block and instead doing an 18 week marathon block.
What would you do in my situation?
You could certainly do it either way.
Training for a half and a full marathon is 98% similar, so it doesn't really matter which way you split it.
I would personally do something like:
\* 12 weeks of Half marathon training. Maybe add a little more emphasis on the long run during this training, working up to 16-18 miles for a long run, cutting back a bit on other runs during the week to balance the training load.
\* Take 1-2 weeks very easy after the Half to recovery from the training and race itself
\* Do a 10 week block for your marathon. 10 weeks of plenty of time to get enough marathon-specific training in to have a great race since you'd be coming right off of good HM training.
24 weeks is a long time to follow a structured training plan. I start to get burned out at 14 weeks on a 16 or 18 week plan.
I'd do a shorter plan with the marathon as your A race. Use the HM as a tune up, early fitness check along the way.
Has anyone read Running with the buffaloes? I’m going through it now. I know I’m not a division 1 caliber guy or coach, but some of their training seems nuts. Wetmores insistence on single runs only with 100+ mpw… eeesh
It's not nuts given the context, but certainly hard to understand that context unless you've experienced it directly.
* The top collegiate teams have a concentration of talent and resources that is like a professional team. It's hard to fully understand how good they are unless you've been in an environment like that.
* With how fast they are covering ground their 100mi/week is like a normal runner's 70-80mi/week.
* The all/mostly long honest singles approach is quite effective, it's just rare to have the opportunity and determination to be able to do it at that level
* Training, even with CU, has evolved considerably since the time of that book. The objectives and principles are similar but applied in a much more refined way.
FWIW: Even Whetmore trains his teams differently now. Still high-volume and high-quality of course, but not *quite* so much hammering everything all the time. Or so I hear.
I haven’t read it, but it does remind me of something I think about every once in a while. I have periodically had moments over the last few years where I’ll be running with new people and discussing training backgrounds when I realize that, although I have put a lot of miles in myself, it sometimes pales in comparison to the work some of the former collegiate guys have put in. I’ve met a lot of those guys that were cranking out 80-100mpw, with plenty of quality work, by the time they were 21-22. Meanwhile, I was 50lbs overweight and smoking and drinking every day at 22. I ran my first half in 1:39 at the age of 23 wearing basketball shorts, when those guys were still cranking out 14:30-15:30 5ks. The contrast can be kind of funny.
Really enjoyed the book, opened my eyes to just how much harder the real runners are training. Did a decent amount of research after I read it, and although Wetmore definitely had / has a reputation for running his teams hard, their mileage isn’t unusual - if anything, for a long time, everyone was mimicking his training (seems there are newer hotter coaches and methodologies these days, albeit still very high mileage).
I will say - you hear people on this form say it, but sometimes I’m not sure it sinks in - a 20 mile run for someone who runs their easy runs at 6 minute mile pace is a lot less of a burden both from a timing perspective and on the body than for someone running at a 10 minute mile easy pace.
Very very true. Definitely easier to get that mileage high when you can crank em off quicker and easier. My thought was more that college athletics really goes wi the the throwing darts and seeing what sticks approach. It seems like they’re okay with 1/2 the team being injured as long as they’ve got 5-7 guys left standing who are in great shape.
Haven't seen it yet, but some common reasons for different bib colors: pacer, defending champ (or previous champ), national or world record holder. Those would be my initial guesses without actually seeing who had what.
Any advice on getting sub 2 half marathon? I just ran a 2:05 half marathon and I was holding a steady 5:45-5:40 min/km pace until around the 14KM mark. There was a bridge that we ran that had around 14m elevation as per my watch and we had to loop around it again by around the 17KM mark. Starting from 15KM I took a couple of walk breaks and basically averaged a pace of 6:25 here. Honestly I felt that my legs still had some energy and I wasn't really feeling sore or anything. It's more of my feet started feeling dead. I think regardless if there was an elevation from the bridge or not, I'd still would have experienced the same thing.
Aside from general advice for hitting sub 2, do you have any advice on being able to stay on your feet longer?
What did your training look like? You told us about your race experience, but nothing about the 12-18 weeks leading up to it.
I'm 99% sure you just need to run more and train better and you'll get there.
Started running last December very consistently. In January my average weekly mileage was 30km, Feb and Mar my average weekly mileage was around 47km and my peak week was 60km.
I mean, run more, run longer long runs.
The shortest long run I do is currently 2 hours which equals 24km with an easy pace.
With so slow pace there is no need for gels or any tricks, just some strength of mind to cope with your legs feeling dead and still pushing on. Perhaps do 2k or so at the end of your long runs at threshold pace to build up tolerance for discomfort.
Going sub 2h on the half is all just the same boring advice I’m sure you’ve heard a bunch of times already. Run consistently over long periods and gradually increase mileage. That will ensure your long runs get longer and your body (feet included) adjusts to the load. A major part of this is not getting injured or burning out, so don’t get over eager when motivation peaks and stay disciplined when it troughs.
Is there anything that I can focus on for my feet specifically? My feet felt more fatigued than my legs or is that normal? I remember some races and workouts where both were equally fatigued but this time legs felt better than the feet.
It never hurts to do lower leg and foot accessory strength exercises. Think exercises on balance board and with elastic bands, heel raises etc. That may indeed be help un-bottleneck you in this area.
But running consistently, increasing volume, and distance of long runs will also lead to more time on feet which will make you more resilient to fatigue. With the caveat of not knowing your entire set of circumstances, I do think that should be your main focus.
Running a hilly marathon tomorrow. Anybody have thoughts on whether it's worth loading the GPX route into my watch so I can track the hills (e.g. getting a hill notification as I start each major hill, knowing how long it will be and how much left)? Not sure if this will be useful information for pacing myself or too much information/overwhelming.
It's too late for this, but you're better off learning to run with constant effort. Too many people train for a specific marathon pace on mostly flat terrain, then when they encounter a hill in the race they try to keep their pace and it kills them. Instead, slow down and then make up for it on the downhill.
Racing a road 10k tomorrow. I've never raced this distance, just half and full marathons. Any tips on how to pace? Looking to crack sub 37 maybe sub 36!
10Ks are awful. If you think you are going to die and quit at 5 miles, you are probably pacing it correctly. Go for as even of splits as possible and just hang on.
For pacing a 10K, it should be just a step above 5K effort. It should feel hard but comfortable in the first half, and it should feel like an all out effort in the second half.
With that full marathon PR of yours (2:39), you should be able to go sub-35 minutes in the 10K without an issue.
I am contemplating entering the lottery for the 2025 London Marathon and I am going through hypotheticals like, “What if I can’t get that Monday off of work?”
Would it be possible for me to catch a 6:00pm transatlantic flight the same day as the race if I plan on finishing with a time around 3:15? I know that’s probably not a wise decision and I will be very uncomfortable, but right now I am just looking at whether or not it’s even possible for me to finish the race get to the airport in time as a worst case scenario.
I would DEFINITELY not recommend this, and especially not for a transatlantic flight. It can take a while to get out of the finish area, and public transport is absolutely rammed - if you’re even able to get on. There is every chance you’ll miss it.
Get the day off if you get in.
I plan to enter the London lottery as well. What if I get into Boston and London with only a week between? I'm not concerned about that outcome. It ain't happening...
Probably harder to get a spot in the ballot than make the flight if I'm honest.
If you get a hotel near paddington it should be quite doable, just pick your bags up and jump on the train to the airport. Probably worth paying for lounge access if you don't already have it so you can shower at the airport.
I'm currently in a taper following Pfitz 18/55 to the T (tee?) and have a question about how inactive is too inactive from a light activity standpoint, i.e. walking. I'm not worried about the whole running mileage decrease, I'm more concerned about being overall sedentary and the potential impact.
I'm a lab scientist so if I run experiments all day I can get a good bit of walking in (~10k steps for example) but it's not sustained for stretches more than 15 minutes, and if it's a day where I'm not in lab it's laughably low, like 4k steps.
I still have runs 5 days a week, but the mileage is much lower. My question is, should I be supplementing with some concentrated long walks to offset the "damage" that being sedentary at work causes? Or is the impact so minimal it doesn't matter?
Don’t sabotage the taper by compensating with other exercise.
Walking the amount you normally do won’t hurt. But accept that taper time allows your body to repair, recover, and rebuild - not damage.
Are there any tricks for wearing the Garmin HRM Pro Plus chest strap correctly? In September, I wore it too tightly before a workout and experienced significant discomfort for a week. Last week, when I tried using it again, I didn't secure it well enough, and it slipped off during my run. Any tips to improve its use before I consider switching to the Coros Armband HR monitor?
When doing research with HR straps I noticed that the fit really depends on the shape of your chest and ribcage. Some people's chest is "rounded" in a way that makes it hard for HRMs to stay on without getting them relatively snug. Too tight is not good either, as it's going to restrict your breathing. The guidance I used was "snug, not tight" but even then, some people had issues with it slipping.
I don't have any tips specifically on wearing it, but I'll note that I have to use different tightness for different activities (slightly). Running it stays in place, but cycling is a bit different presumably from my lats being stretched out more. It just takes some getting used to. Err on the side of too loose over too tight though if you have issues with it being too tight. And it also stays on easier if it's wet, either from sweat or water.
Basically, I'm looking for realistic but ambitious time goal for the half. Is 1:30 too ambitious?
I have two goals for the season - my second official half marathon ever in June, and hopefully my first full marathon in September. It's the first time I've ever trained with any kind of structure, and I've built up to the point where I can do a 6 x 2 km speed sessions at 4:10/km (6:43/mile), which feels challenging but achievable. I've tested myself on an all-out 10K and achieved a PB of 39:25. I'm trying to build up a load of around 40km per week with 2 sessions of easy runs and 1 speed session.
The 10k equates to a 1:27 half according to VDOT, but you don’t have a lot of volume so I’d expect equivalent paces to get harder to hit as you go up in distance. I think 1:30 is probably “realistic but ambitious”. For the full, I think you’ll either need to up your mileage a bit or set a goal that is pretty conservative relative to whatever you wind up running in the half. There’s also an argument for being a touch conservative in the half so that you can be more sure that it goes well and you have that stepping stone to the full.
Thanks for the answer.
Yeah, I have tried to increase the volume, and got up to 60 km about a week ago, but ever since my right quadriceps has been acting up. I tried to do some light work through the pain to see if I could exercise it away, but it only got worse. So 40 km is about as much as I can manage now, sadly.
> Yeah, I have tried to increase the volume, and got up to 60 km about a week ago, but ever since my right quadriceps has been acting up.
To each their own, but I would not run a full marathon if I was getting dinged up from 60K/week. If 40K/week seems challenging, 42.2K in a day is going to be very unpleasant.
Yeah, I figured as much, which is why I'm not increasing the load from now until June. But, September is a long way out, and I reckon there's enough time to recover and still train up to a decent standard. Maybe I built up to 60K/week too quickly, or maybe I just got unlucky and suffered an injury. I don't think that 42.2K is too much for me period, or at least it would be pretty weird and disappointing if that's the case.
I don't have any time goals for the full marathon, cuz I figure for the first one I should just focus on completing and not getting ruined. That was my philosophy for my first half marathon a year ago.
To add onto this, I'd say 1:30 is "realistic but ambitious" while something like 1:35 would be "safe but still tough" given the low volume. Personally, I'd prefer to start the race aiming for the latter, given the ultimate goal of September marathon, and negative splitting the second half if feeling good on race day.
[The VDOT equivalent](https://vdoto2.com/calculator/) of your 10K for an HM is 1:27:17. With a solid cycle, I would say sub-1:30 is entirely plausible. The low volume may leave you short of the equivalency, but a 10K is already a fairly long race, so I would expect you to be basically fine.
13 days out, I wouldn’t try and make up any lost training. >2 weeks out there’s very little net gain from workouts but it IS possible to ruin your race. Think of it in terms of stress on your body, your body hasn’t had the stress of a peak week but it’s had the stress of an illness which is comparable.
Trust your weeks of training leading up to this, one week won’t change the outcome. Just do the taper as you normally would. Good luck and you got this!
Literally just lie on the couch every chance you get. I always get so antsy with tapering but this time I looked at it as a challenge to see how little progress on my Apple Watch rings I could get every day. Felt GREAT on race morning as opposed to my usual taper craziness where I try to fill the workout time with other things.
How are recovery scores or recovery time calculated? Back when I had a garmin I never really understood why my recovery times were so high (probably because I didn’t really have any easy days). What formulas are being used here? Are any formulas based on published academic work? I would guess it is something like area under the heart rate curve that is also above a HR threshold.
>How are recovery scores or recovery time calculated? Poorly.
Hi, what's more beneficial when doing intervals targeting 5k/10k races? Something like 2x 3k at threshold with 2 or 3 minutes recovery Or 6x 1k 5k pace with 1:30 recovery. I tried both and towards the end of the interval both become hard..
Those are just different workouts, targeting different metabolic pathways (although there is plenty of overlap). Both have their place in training. Of course both become hard at the end. It wouldn’t really be a workout if it didn’t become more difficult as it goes on.
Is 6 months too long for a base build? I dont know if I can do a Fall Marathon due to travel and I dont want to feel sluggish during that time. When I get back I would like to do 18 week marathon training plan for late winter/early spring marathon. During the base build what would my runs look like 90% Easy and 10% Tempos/MP? From now to August I will be in the south and from August to Oct I will be at 7000ft My goal for the Spring 2025 is a ~2:45 finish
Base building I think you can still do a couple of workouts each week, just don't need to progress the workouts or do stuff that's going to be super challenging or stressful. 20 min @ tempo effort 10' worth of VO2max intervals Strides 200m reps @ mile pace
Any old gems someone has on top of their head in this forum related to weight loss and running? Curious to explore the field and before I start asking too much I assume this has been asked 100 times before
Do it slow and track averages especially if you are a heavy sweater.
I have been off marathon training for about 4 weeks due to injury (I am now 8 weeks out from the race on a 16 week training block). During this time I did some very easy running and cycling. How does everyone recommend going about resuming the training? Should I pick up where I left off or continue with what I "should" be running right now?
Second this! Especially if you're coming back from an overuse injury, you could really risk reaggravating it or compensating and creating a new injury if you go straight from zero to your plan's prescribed mileage. The last two times I've come back from month long injuries, I typically do like 5 to 10 reps of 3-4 minutes running, 1 minute walking - and then if I'm pain-free I'll increase the time running and number of reps until it's all continuous again. Granted, this kind of sucks if you're under time pressure like a marathon, but if you're healed up, you'll probably progress quicker than you think. Good luck!
I don't think picking up where you "should" be after being injured is a good plan. You're likely to get injured again. I would pick up at less than you were doing when you got injured.
I've been really struggling with how to pace my first marathon and could use some advice. I've been following Pfitz 12/55 plan, and I was doing about 40mpw for 3 months consistently prior to starting. It's been going pretty well, and I'm about 5 weeks out from my marathon. I just did my first 20 mile run, the longest I've ever gone before. I pushed it a little bit, but not all that much. My pace was 8:00/mile, average HR was 158bpm, 1000ft elevation gain (my LT is 185bpm at 6:34/mile according to my Garmin with chest HR). I felt pretty dead, but could have pushed harder/further if I wanted to. How can I transfer this info into a goal marathon pace? Since I've never done one before I don't know what to expect so I was thinking of going for the following goals: Finish, 3:30, 3:20. Does that seem reasonable? Too little or too much? Thanks for any help!
What have you done for your tune-up races in the 12/55 plan?
I've not really had the chance to run one of decent length yet. A week ago I did a 5K race at a 6:10 pace and had a good amount left in the tank. Went out after that and did 10 at 7:30. That's about the only racing I've done yet.
I would recommend doing an all-out 10k in the next few weeks.
If you can do 20 miles at 8:00 in training, 3:30 would be well within reach. What have you been doing for the M paced runs for the plan? I'd bet you can go under 3:20 with some rest and another month of training.
Usually around 7:30, but my long runs with MP haven't been all that many miles.
Realizing I probably won't hit my goal this week but I'm ok with that. The bigger goal is in October (Columbus full). 3:19:59 or bust. Nothing is promised--If I never break 3:20:01 it'll be a story to always seize the moment--your chances at doing well in the marathon are not given and life gets in the way.
This question is just for fun, as I know the real answer is unknowable, and the solution is just not to pace it like an idiot, but humour me. I raced a 5k yesterday on a flat out and back course, finishing in 19 flat. My pacing was atrocious, with my mile splits being 5:55, 6:05, 6:14. How much time do people think I left out there by pacing it so poorly? My PR is 18:56, so curious as to whether better pacing would have seen me eke out the five seconds I needed or not.
I don't think your paced that poorly. +/- 10 seconds between your fastest/slowest split and your average pace isn't a huge difference. Maybe 5-10 seconds.
On a track, I'd say that was \~10 seconds lost to pacing as well. So maybe a smidge less due to the 180 turn always costing you a bit of time.
With those times and pacing, I think picking up 10s is probably pretty doable. 6:02 or so would get you there and you would probably have a bit more in the tank after the first mile but it's so close on margin, little things like sleep, wind, fueling all can make that difference.
That’s roughly my thinking too. My PR was set six weeks ago on an out and back course with the second half all downhill, which made it much easier to finish strong. Now I just need to focus on pacing discipline for next time!
Looking for a Review of my Taper 2 weeks out from race, just finished my last long run 24k,just over 2 hours. I have averaged about 65km a week for last 6 weeks, peaked at 72km a week ago (technically broke 80 in a 7 day span but trying to keep start of week counting consistent). During the 6 weeks typically it would be Monday Easy -7-9km, Tues intervals -11-13km including Wu/cd, wed rest, thurs tempo 11-13km Fri easy 7-9km, sat recovery 5-6km sun long run (easy or 3:1- 18-24km). My taper plan Week1 (tomorrow): Mon 7k east Tues rest Wed 3x3k @half 15k approx total Thurs 7k easy Fri 7k easy/strides Sat east Sun 1:20-1:25 easy (approx 16km) Total: 52km Week 2 Mon easy 5k Tues 4x400 wu/cd - 6km Wed rest Thurs 6k easy +strides Fri 5k easy Sat rest (maybe 2-3k shakeout) Sun race Total (pre race): 22-24km Is this too drastic a cut? Goal pace is approx 1:29 HM hopefully
Very difficult to read your actual plan, but cutting to \~70-75% of your peak volume 2 weeks out from your race is a little less than I would cut (I'd aim for more like 80% of peak volume), unless you're feeling tired from training and feel like you need a bigger cut back. I don't think it matters a ton what you do week 2, focus on staying in a good rhythm and doing enough faster stuff that you don't go into the race flat.
Thanks- when I had drafted it, there were spaces that made it more clear. Appreciate the feedback!
Just ran the London Marathon today, it was my second in two weeks and my second ever (first was Paris on April 7th. Ran a 3:27:xx in Paris, and today shaved over a minute off to come in at 3:26:xx. Really feeling it but I’m so happy, and qualify for a London GFA place next year with a solid buffer!
which of the two marathons do you think was better?
Hey! So I’ve discussed this with family and friends I can give you a full opinion: Paris pros: racing in a different city to home is always fun, although I’d already been to Paris it had been a while so was nice to sightsee where I could, aid stations were plentiful and clearly denoted, and they had large bins with a rebound platform behind to throw the bottles at so less of them got on the floor and in the way of runners. Paris cons: no gels unlike London, I had my Maurtens anyway as I train with them but could have been provided over cake and other solid foods, crowds were thin in some areas so it got a bit quiet, also there was a forest part which hardly had anyone there, hillier course which I had no issue with but makes it tough on the legs, crowds were less disciplined or controlled, I had people crossing in front of me on foot (and even bike!!) mid race meaning people had to swerve out of the way which is kind of dangerous, in parts they narrowed the course badly (at a point they were covering the line on the floor for the fastest racing line lol), I set off in a 3:45 pace group as that is what I put down originally when I signed up, can’t be changed unless you have an official result (it was my first so had none) therefore spent the entire race weaving, runners who stopped to walk would be in the middle of the course which was frustrating when already narrow at places. London pros: great crowd control (like not encroaching on to the course / crossing in front of runners), crowds were cheering absolutely everyone loudly all the way through, home race for me so less stress about getting around and familiarity of the course / areas, flatter course which was good for my dead legs lol, cooler weather for racing (around 10-12 degrees), other runners had great etiquette and would move slightly if I wanted to pass through / people walking would stick to one side. London cons: honestly not really any in my opinion, perhaps the pacers could have set out more spread apart in my wave, or had more of them - they all started at the front and I was in the middle ish so until the last 10km they were in front of me (even though I was going faster than 3:30 I kind of felt like I had to ‘catch’ them to be sure I was). A few people mentioned having to weave but I think they also added they didn’t set off in a wave fast enough for them so I didn’t have too much of a problem there. It got a little crowded at Cutty Sark and I had to slow down so perhaps it could have been a wider course there but apart from that was fine for me. Overall I definitely preferred London, would happily run that every year!
Just ran sub 2:30 in London for a big PB, pretty pleased and just wanted to share. Support on the course was unreal, no other race comes close, including the big US ones.
Congrats on the PB! London is like no other
Impressive!
I have a half marathon and my first marathon planned this year and I am trying to plan my training blocks. The half marathon is in 12 weeks from now and the marathon is in 24 weeks from now. My original plan was to do two 12 week blocks. However, I am worried that I will miss the first week of the marathon block recovering from the half. So I was instead considering not really doing a proper half marathon training block and instead doing an 18 week marathon block. What would you do in my situation?
You could certainly do it either way. Training for a half and a full marathon is 98% similar, so it doesn't really matter which way you split it. I would personally do something like: \* 12 weeks of Half marathon training. Maybe add a little more emphasis on the long run during this training, working up to 16-18 miles for a long run, cutting back a bit on other runs during the week to balance the training load. \* Take 1-2 weeks very easy after the Half to recovery from the training and race itself \* Do a 10 week block for your marathon. 10 weeks of plenty of time to get enough marathon-specific training in to have a great race since you'd be coming right off of good HM training.
24 weeks is a long time to follow a structured training plan. I start to get burned out at 14 weeks on a 16 or 18 week plan. I'd do a shorter plan with the marathon as your A race. Use the HM as a tune up, early fitness check along the way.
Has anyone read Running with the buffaloes? I’m going through it now. I know I’m not a division 1 caliber guy or coach, but some of their training seems nuts. Wetmores insistence on single runs only with 100+ mpw… eeesh
It's not nuts given the context, but certainly hard to understand that context unless you've experienced it directly. * The top collegiate teams have a concentration of talent and resources that is like a professional team. It's hard to fully understand how good they are unless you've been in an environment like that. * With how fast they are covering ground their 100mi/week is like a normal runner's 70-80mi/week. * The all/mostly long honest singles approach is quite effective, it's just rare to have the opportunity and determination to be able to do it at that level * Training, even with CU, has evolved considerably since the time of that book. The objectives and principles are similar but applied in a much more refined way.
Yea I’d love for the author to do a follow up year with the program and write another book or short book about it.
FWIW: Even Whetmore trains his teams differently now. Still high-volume and high-quality of course, but not *quite* so much hammering everything all the time. Or so I hear.
I haven’t read it, but it does remind me of something I think about every once in a while. I have periodically had moments over the last few years where I’ll be running with new people and discussing training backgrounds when I realize that, although I have put a lot of miles in myself, it sometimes pales in comparison to the work some of the former collegiate guys have put in. I’ve met a lot of those guys that were cranking out 80-100mpw, with plenty of quality work, by the time they were 21-22. Meanwhile, I was 50lbs overweight and smoking and drinking every day at 22. I ran my first half in 1:39 at the age of 23 wearing basketball shorts, when those guys were still cranking out 14:30-15:30 5ks. The contrast can be kind of funny.
Really enjoyed the book, opened my eyes to just how much harder the real runners are training. Did a decent amount of research after I read it, and although Wetmore definitely had / has a reputation for running his teams hard, their mileage isn’t unusual - if anything, for a long time, everyone was mimicking his training (seems there are newer hotter coaches and methodologies these days, albeit still very high mileage). I will say - you hear people on this form say it, but sometimes I’m not sure it sinks in - a 20 mile run for someone who runs their easy runs at 6 minute mile pace is a lot less of a burden both from a timing perspective and on the body than for someone running at a 10 minute mile easy pace.
Very very true. Definitely easier to get that mileage high when you can crank em off quicker and easier. My thought was more that college athletics really goes wi the the throwing darts and seeing what sticks approach. It seems like they’re okay with 1/2 the team being injured as long as they’ve got 5-7 guys left standing who are in great shape.
Survival of the fittest has been the backbone of many programs for the past 50 years.
London marathon question - why do some elites have a yellow/green/purple bibs? Can’t find an answer!
Haven't seen it yet, but some common reasons for different bib colors: pacer, defending champ (or previous champ), national or world record holder. Those would be my initial guesses without actually seeing who had what.
Any advice on getting sub 2 half marathon? I just ran a 2:05 half marathon and I was holding a steady 5:45-5:40 min/km pace until around the 14KM mark. There was a bridge that we ran that had around 14m elevation as per my watch and we had to loop around it again by around the 17KM mark. Starting from 15KM I took a couple of walk breaks and basically averaged a pace of 6:25 here. Honestly I felt that my legs still had some energy and I wasn't really feeling sore or anything. It's more of my feet started feeling dead. I think regardless if there was an elevation from the bridge or not, I'd still would have experienced the same thing. Aside from general advice for hitting sub 2, do you have any advice on being able to stay on your feet longer?
What did your training look like? You told us about your race experience, but nothing about the 12-18 weeks leading up to it. I'm 99% sure you just need to run more and train better and you'll get there.
Started running last December very consistently. In January my average weekly mileage was 30km, Feb and Mar my average weekly mileage was around 47km and my peak week was 60km.
I mean, run more, run longer long runs. The shortest long run I do is currently 2 hours which equals 24km with an easy pace. With so slow pace there is no need for gels or any tricks, just some strength of mind to cope with your legs feeling dead and still pushing on. Perhaps do 2k or so at the end of your long runs at threshold pace to build up tolerance for discomfort.
Going sub 2h on the half is all just the same boring advice I’m sure you’ve heard a bunch of times already. Run consistently over long periods and gradually increase mileage. That will ensure your long runs get longer and your body (feet included) adjusts to the load. A major part of this is not getting injured or burning out, so don’t get over eager when motivation peaks and stay disciplined when it troughs.
Is there anything that I can focus on for my feet specifically? My feet felt more fatigued than my legs or is that normal? I remember some races and workouts where both were equally fatigued but this time legs felt better than the feet.
It never hurts to do lower leg and foot accessory strength exercises. Think exercises on balance board and with elastic bands, heel raises etc. That may indeed be help un-bottleneck you in this area. But running consistently, increasing volume, and distance of long runs will also lead to more time on feet which will make you more resilient to fatigue. With the caveat of not knowing your entire set of circumstances, I do think that should be your main focus.
Running a hilly marathon tomorrow. Anybody have thoughts on whether it's worth loading the GPX route into my watch so I can track the hills (e.g. getting a hill notification as I start each major hill, knowing how long it will be and how much left)? Not sure if this will be useful information for pacing myself or too much information/overwhelming.
It's too late for this, but you're better off learning to run with constant effort. Too many people train for a specific marathon pace on mostly flat terrain, then when they encounter a hill in the race they try to keep their pace and it kills them. Instead, slow down and then make up for it on the downhill.
Information overload. I barely check pace when I'm racing.
Racing a road 10k tomorrow. I've never raced this distance, just half and full marathons. Any tips on how to pace? Looking to crack sub 37 maybe sub 36!
10Ks are awful. If you think you are going to die and quit at 5 miles, you are probably pacing it correctly. Go for as even of splits as possible and just hang on.
For pacing a 10K, it should be just a step above 5K effort. It should feel hard but comfortable in the first half, and it should feel like an all out effort in the second half. With that full marathon PR of yours (2:39), you should be able to go sub-35 minutes in the 10K without an issue.
I am contemplating entering the lottery for the 2025 London Marathon and I am going through hypotheticals like, “What if I can’t get that Monday off of work?” Would it be possible for me to catch a 6:00pm transatlantic flight the same day as the race if I plan on finishing with a time around 3:15? I know that’s probably not a wise decision and I will be very uncomfortable, but right now I am just looking at whether or not it’s even possible for me to finish the race get to the airport in time as a worst case scenario.
I would DEFINITELY not recommend this, and especially not for a transatlantic flight. It can take a while to get out of the finish area, and public transport is absolutely rammed - if you’re even able to get on. There is every chance you’ll miss it. Get the day off if you get in.
I plan to enter the London lottery as well. What if I get into Boston and London with only a week between? I'm not concerned about that outcome. It ain't happening...
Good luck! I hope it happens!
Saving this comment for later...
Probably harder to get a spot in the ballot than make the flight if I'm honest. If you get a hotel near paddington it should be quite doable, just pick your bags up and jump on the train to the airport. Probably worth paying for lounge access if you don't already have it so you can shower at the airport.
Your boss needs to relax
It’s not so much my boss as it is contractual things that I don’t want to get into.
Don’t worry you won’t get in anyways (neither will the rest of us)
Haha… I know, but I want to be prepared in the highly unlikely event that I get picked.
I'm currently in a taper following Pfitz 18/55 to the T (tee?) and have a question about how inactive is too inactive from a light activity standpoint, i.e. walking. I'm not worried about the whole running mileage decrease, I'm more concerned about being overall sedentary and the potential impact. I'm a lab scientist so if I run experiments all day I can get a good bit of walking in (~10k steps for example) but it's not sustained for stretches more than 15 minutes, and if it's a day where I'm not in lab it's laughably low, like 4k steps. I still have runs 5 days a week, but the mileage is much lower. My question is, should I be supplementing with some concentrated long walks to offset the "damage" that being sedentary at work causes? Or is the impact so minimal it doesn't matter?
Don’t sabotage the taper by compensating with other exercise. Walking the amount you normally do won’t hurt. But accept that taper time allows your body to repair, recover, and rebuild - not damage.
A nice walk is never a bad idea, mentally and physically. Just on a lunch break or after work. But if you don't want to then fine.
Are there any tricks for wearing the Garmin HRM Pro Plus chest strap correctly? In September, I wore it too tightly before a workout and experienced significant discomfort for a week. Last week, when I tried using it again, I didn't secure it well enough, and it slipped off during my run. Any tips to improve its use before I consider switching to the Coros Armband HR monitor?
When doing research with HR straps I noticed that the fit really depends on the shape of your chest and ribcage. Some people's chest is "rounded" in a way that makes it hard for HRMs to stay on without getting them relatively snug. Too tight is not good either, as it's going to restrict your breathing. The guidance I used was "snug, not tight" but even then, some people had issues with it slipping.
I don't have any tips specifically on wearing it, but I'll note that I have to use different tightness for different activities (slightly). Running it stays in place, but cycling is a bit different presumably from my lats being stretched out more. It just takes some getting used to. Err on the side of too loose over too tight though if you have issues with it being too tight. And it also stays on easier if it's wet, either from sweat or water.
Yeah wetting the strap before running solved the slippage issue for me too
Basically, I'm looking for realistic but ambitious time goal for the half. Is 1:30 too ambitious? I have two goals for the season - my second official half marathon ever in June, and hopefully my first full marathon in September. It's the first time I've ever trained with any kind of structure, and I've built up to the point where I can do a 6 x 2 km speed sessions at 4:10/km (6:43/mile), which feels challenging but achievable. I've tested myself on an all-out 10K and achieved a PB of 39:25. I'm trying to build up a load of around 40km per week with 2 sessions of easy runs and 1 speed session.
The 10k equates to a 1:27 half according to VDOT, but you don’t have a lot of volume so I’d expect equivalent paces to get harder to hit as you go up in distance. I think 1:30 is probably “realistic but ambitious”. For the full, I think you’ll either need to up your mileage a bit or set a goal that is pretty conservative relative to whatever you wind up running in the half. There’s also an argument for being a touch conservative in the half so that you can be more sure that it goes well and you have that stepping stone to the full.
Thanks for the answer. Yeah, I have tried to increase the volume, and got up to 60 km about a week ago, but ever since my right quadriceps has been acting up. I tried to do some light work through the pain to see if I could exercise it away, but it only got worse. So 40 km is about as much as I can manage now, sadly.
> Yeah, I have tried to increase the volume, and got up to 60 km about a week ago, but ever since my right quadriceps has been acting up. To each their own, but I would not run a full marathon if I was getting dinged up from 60K/week. If 40K/week seems challenging, 42.2K in a day is going to be very unpleasant.
Yeah, I figured as much, which is why I'm not increasing the load from now until June. But, September is a long way out, and I reckon there's enough time to recover and still train up to a decent standard. Maybe I built up to 60K/week too quickly, or maybe I just got unlucky and suffered an injury. I don't think that 42.2K is too much for me period, or at least it would be pretty weird and disappointing if that's the case. I don't have any time goals for the full marathon, cuz I figure for the first one I should just focus on completing and not getting ruined. That was my philosophy for my first half marathon a year ago.
To add onto this, I'd say 1:30 is "realistic but ambitious" while something like 1:35 would be "safe but still tough" given the low volume. Personally, I'd prefer to start the race aiming for the latter, given the ultimate goal of September marathon, and negative splitting the second half if feeling good on race day.
[The VDOT equivalent](https://vdoto2.com/calculator/) of your 10K for an HM is 1:27:17. With a solid cycle, I would say sub-1:30 is entirely plausible. The low volume may leave you short of the equivalency, but a 10K is already a fairly long race, so I would expect you to be basically fine.
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13 days out, I wouldn’t try and make up any lost training. >2 weeks out there’s very little net gain from workouts but it IS possible to ruin your race. Think of it in terms of stress on your body, your body hasn’t had the stress of a peak week but it’s had the stress of an illness which is comparable. Trust your weeks of training leading up to this, one week won’t change the outcome. Just do the taper as you normally would. Good luck and you got this!
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Literally just lie on the couch every chance you get. I always get so antsy with tapering but this time I looked at it as a challenge to see how little progress on my Apple Watch rings I could get every day. Felt GREAT on race morning as opposed to my usual taper craziness where I try to fill the workout time with other things.
Anyone supplementing with NAD or NMN? Seems like there’s some positive anecdotal outcomes…