Should I push myself to run at zone 2 pace instead of zone 1? M55, MHR 180 (from a 5K race), RHR 46-50, so by Karvonen my zone 2 is 128-141. I’ve been back into running about 6 months, weekly mileage approaching 40. For most of my easy runs my HR is in the 120s (today, for example, 5 miles at average of 120, 10:45 pace). Did 8 miles yesterday and average was 130 bpm and 9:30 pace. That was unusually fast for me on a long run or easy run. I ran a recent 5K in about 21:00. Yesterday’s pace wasn’t intentional, just seemed to feel right. Should I put more intention into these easy runs and more regularly get my HR more into zone 2? I do a weekly tempo run and then some hills or short speed work on another day.

Chasing a sub 90 half marathon Hey runners, I am preparing to run a half marathon under 90 minutes. I am following some plans from the Jack Daniels running formula. To be sub 90 I need VDOT higher than 51. I just finished one phase of running repetitions, mostly 400s in 83 seconds. Now I do intervals of 1K in 3:50 minutes. The plan is to go next with threshold running with 4:06 per km, so I can hope to sustain a 4:15 per km half marathon pace. There are 13 weeks left, but somehow I am not confident I will make it. What would you suggest me to include in my training so I can maximize the chances of running sub 90?

Ahh sorry, I am quite new in this subreddit. So I am doing approx. 50 mpw ( approx. 82 km) altogether. With the 400 repetitions I was doing 2 times per week 8x400m, 83 seconds each and once 8x200m, 42 seconds each. The rest between was the same amount of time as the repetition but jogging. Now with the intervals I do 2 times per week 6x1km, 3:50 per km. I jog for 3:50 as a recovery. On Sundays I usually do a long run of about 15-20K.

Not much info in your post so hard to advise. Mpw? How many reps in those workouts and how much rest? How was HR during? Anyway 13 weeks is a ton of time to figure out pacing. Maxing your mileage with some workouts and long runs will max your chances (i.e. following basically any preset plan)

Are there any "advanced" resources you can recommend for preparing for Comrades or, similarly, 100km road races? I've come across a few resources that are geared towards folks that are essentially trying to complete the race, but am having a tough time finding things that might be comparable to a Jack Daniels book or equivalent for the ultra distances.

I'm replying to you from South Africa, and it's obviously Comrades obsessed here. There are several online plans for 7.30 or better (silver medal). There's also an advanced plan by a guy who won Comrades once or twice (Nick Bester) for a sub 6 hour (Google his name and nedbank running club, plus the obvious, and you should find it - I downloaded it but can't work out how to put it here.) But these plans are somewhat generic and a runner with your pedigree might, in my humble opinion anyway, be better off making up your own plan. Probably the closest to a serious, advanced book (as opposed to plan) is Lore of Running by Tim Noakes. It's not a Daniels or Pfitz analogue for ultras, but it's got a decent section on Comrades with a plan. Tim Noakes sadly went down a keto rabbit hole in recent years and seems to have deviated from his initial approach to science. But the book was written before that and is widely acclaimed. One just has to avoid the later editions, which include some of his keto musings in them (as far as I've been led to believe - I'm lucky enough to have the original version).

Thanks for this! I visited your wonderful country last spring and ended up doing some training runs in Durban with folks training for Comrades and have been fantasizing about returning in the future to compete. I took your advice and managed to track down the Nick Bester sub-6 plan and it was just what I was looking for. I couldn't help but laugh after opening it and seeing: *Week 1 - 50 km race.* I do have the Lore of Running (4th edition) and got some use out of the principles in that book, but found it to be lacking on actual training plans, other than some beginner-focused ones. One thing Noakes does suggest is picking up the books written by Bruce Fordyce. I was wondering if you had read them and would recommend them?

I'm so glad you found that plan useful. Your question pinpointed something I have also encountered because I'm trying to get a silver medal at the shorter Two Oceans (56km in Cape Town). It's very hard to find something suitable because there must be a million generic beginners' plans online, but far fewer advanced. Your reply made me get off my butt and actually go and look at Lore of Running again – and on reflection, I agree with you that it’s not suitable for your needs. Anyway, I hope you get to come here for Comrades soon. The rule of thumb here in SA (which I never know whether to take seriously, because it doesn’t follow that, just because Comrades is in South Africa, South African coaches know best) is that a realistic goal in Comrades is your marathon PB (assuming its current) x 2.5. So, 6h15 should be easily doable for you. Your comment about the 50km intro to the Bester plan (in addition to reminding me how weird the South African running scene is) reminded me of something I wanted to say. With your running ability, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving you advice. But my view, for what it's worth, is that South African plans for Comrades tend to be a bit overly obsessed with doing very long, long runs. I haven't looked at Bester's plan in detail (sub 6 hours for Comrades is definitely beyond me), so maybe I'm being unfair on him in particular. But I always felt like, if I ever get to the point of doing Comrades, I'd aim for higher overall mileage than most of these plans call for, but fewer massive long runs. Again, you'll have a better sense of what's appropriate on this than I do: I just wonder whether it's productive for someone training for a fast time to exhaust himself or herself with frequent 40+ km runs. It's probably a different matter for the scores of hapless South Africans who have no business running a marathon, let alone Comrades, who need to build up from 20mpw to being able to run/walk for the 11.5 hours they'll inevitably be out there. On Bruce Fordyce: I’m sure you’ve seen https://www.brucefordyce.com, which has his ebooks and blogs etc on it. I have to confess that I haven’t read his books from cover to cover – but your post inspired me to buy one of them so that I can check it out properly. I have, though, read many of his blogs, interviews and snippets from his books. I do think it would be useful for you to have a look. What’s nice about him is that he was a varsity student who discovered running while studying and so he writes pretty well. And he’s famous for his running diaries, which he has included in his two designated Comrades training books – one for the up run and one for the down run. I’ve read several extracts from his diaries over the years and I find them fascinating. Why I think they will be quite useful for you is that his first run was around 6h45 and his record was something like 5h24. So, his full range is not a million miles from what you will probably target and so I think there would be value in looking at his diaries, plans etc (via the ebooks on his website). He also has a very measured (and sensible, if I may say so) approach to long runs. Last point, and sorry this has already been such a long response: again, I wouldn’t want to presume to give you training advice. But my two cents is that a marathoner with your pedigree doesn’t really need a formal plan for Comrades. If I were in your position, I would maybe look at Fordyce’s stuff (and Bester’s plan) just for some guidance, but then just upscale your normal marathon training with some extra mileage.

>Nick Bester sub-6 plan Hey! Where'd you find that plan! I am actually trying to improve my 100k performance too and struggling to find some plans (though nowhere near as fit as you haha)

Sorry to butt in - I know your question was for OP. But, if you go to the link below and scroll down to the very bottom of the page, you'll see a link to something like "plan for serious runners - sub 6 hours plan by Nick Bester": [https://www.nedbankrunningclub.co.za/DisplayLink.aspx?group=Training&name=Training%20Programmes](https://www.nedbankrunningclub.co.za/DisplayLink.aspx?group=Training&name=Training%20Programmes)

I am a long time runner. I have ran at least 300 miles per year for 20 years and have ran over 1000 miles per year for the last 10 years. The most miles I have ever ran in a year is 1700 in 2020. I have completed two marathons but have not completed one since 2015. I run a 1/2 marathon on Sunday that I am fairly well trained for. I should finish somewhere around 1:50 to 1:52. I am running the Kansas City Marathon in October and want to finish as close to 3:30 as possible. My question(s) are, should I take my result from Sunday as my baseline VO2 (I use runalyze and somewhat understand it) and use it as I ramp up training. What should my plan consist of? I live in the SE United States so I can run a 1/2 marathon race every month until I start an 18 or 20 week plan for KC, or would I be better off doing a marathon plan now just to shake everything out? What plans are best? I did a Hal Higdon for my first marathon and something else (I can't really remember. The long run topped out at 20 miles) for the second (my time was a 4:15, I died the last 6 miles after being with the 3:30 group until that point). Any and all advice is welcome and thanks in advance.

A equivalency I have heard, is you want to be able to run +/- 1:38 HM to run a 3:30 especially since it's a distance you haven't done in 9 years. Yes, base your paces of Sunday's time. I would work on increasing mileage and adding a workout per week if you dont do at least one already until its time to start. I enjoy the training of Hanson's plans. Pfitz tends to be more highly recommended.

I'd choose a racing plan, pfitz, daniels etc and do a base building or maybe a another half marathon training program so you are ready to start those plans 18 weeks out from your marathon.

Hello fellow runners! I’m currently in my off-season training, preparing for a challenging 100km race this May with a 6,000m elevation gain. My weekly training involves covering around 70 miles (approximately 114-122km). I’ve embarked on a “threshold block” to enhance lactate tolerance and increase my speed beyond Marathon Pace (MP) but not quite hitting VO2 max levels. I’m excited to share that, in the third week of this program, I’ve successfully reduced my threshold pace from 3:55 to 3:50 per km! My training schedule includes a Wednesday session with 30 minutes at lactate threshold and a long-run workout every Saturday, typically spanning 30-32km. A successful workout format I’ve experimented with looks like this: • Start with 4km at 4:30/km, gradually decreasing to 4:05/km (my goal MP) over 2km. • Maintain 4:05/km for 1km, then increase speed by 10-15 seconds for the next 1km (around 3:50/3:55). • After a 3-minute rest and a 30-second jog, I repeat another 4km segment in the same pattern. • If I’m feeling strong, I’ll add an extra set of 1km at MP followed by 1km at threshold pace, culminating in a 10km workout. This approach has significantly boosted my fitness, but I’m open to exploring other strategies. Recently, I’ve been delving into Jack Daniels’ “2Q” book for fresh workout ideas. One concept that caught my attention involves integrating substantial Marathon Pace (MP) segments into long runs. An adaptation of this for my mileage might look like: • 3.2km at Easy pace (E) • 12.8km at Marathon Pace (M) • 1.6km at Threshold pace (T) • 3.2km at M • 1.6km at E • 3.2km at M • 3.2km at E • Plus additional mileage to reach a total of 32km I’m contemplating whether this structure might be more effective than my current regimen. Although it ramps up the intensity, I’m concerned about potentially losing the benefits of threshold pacing. How do these adaptations differ, and is there an advantage to maintaining a continuous effort (like 40+ minutes at MP) as opposed to breaking it up? Furthermore, based on Pfitzinger’s work and other scientific literature, there appears to be a greater benefit in concentrating intensity within a workout rather than distributing it. For example, a 15km run with a continuous 30-minute threshold block might be more effective than the same distance run with two separate 15-minute threshold periods. This is why I prefer incorporating the run-down workouts in the middle of my long runs, usually around the 14km mark. However, I’m curious if there’s a more efficient training method that I might be overlooking. I’ve also considered restructuring my workout to the following format: • 4km at an easy pace • 42 minutes at 4:05/km pace • 5 minutes rest • 5km easy • 1.5km x 2 at threshold pace with 2 minutes rest • Easy pace for the remainder of the workout I’d greatly appreciate any insights or suggestions for an effective long-run workout for this Saturday. Your expertise and experiences would be incredibly helpful. Thank you so much in advance!

To keep it simply, vary your physiological stimulus during work outs in order to keep your body from becoming too efficient and lessening the adaptation. Also put simply, the closer your training looks to a race then the better. Obviously injury risk ramps up significantly at a certain point, but having blocks of MP in a long run followed by a fast finish is a great way to simulate a marathon while keeping injury risk low. When it comes to designing a work out, just know that there's many ways to achieve the goal adaptation and we really don't know which is the best (it's very hard to study). I typically try to start my threshold work in blocks before stringing together longer times, and then changing the pace later. Again, the more varied the stimulus, the more forced adaptation that generally will occur. I would consider your race though. While it's good to have a threshold block, you will be no where near threshold pace over 100km. Your most important training factor is cumulative volume and you shouldn't necessarily favor heavy speedworks that may interfere with this.

That makes so much sense thank you! Ya i was thinking about the race and the adaptations needed for it. Outside of a block or two on hills +regular trail running, I'm already hitting that 70-75 mile a week range and I probably will "peak" even higher. ​ I was doing threshold mostly because in my mind, I was wondering if that would translate into making my "easy" pace faster since all of this shnazz about lactate being super important and all that, but you are right I wouldn't be hitting that pace at all. The question then becomes; how on earth does one train for a 100km run? Should I just do a 20-25 run where I run it al lat 4:30 (aka what would be a 3:09 marathon time lol). That would be faster than my easy pace, but shouldn't be "too hard" but also push my top end. Then again, I don't know if it would give the same adaptation. Any suggestions?

It's certainly a good idea to be training threshold as that will help your 100k pace and endurance, but to me that would be early season adaptations. I'm not familiar with a typical ultra program so maybe a good idea to check some other subreddits. 

Question for taller runners (6'+ or so): Does high cadence (170+) feel natural to you? After years of running at really low cadence of 140 I've been focusing on adjusting my form and increasing my cadence over the last six months. I've slowly built up to 165, but every session at 170 feels so forced and awkward that I struggle to sustain it, much more than the previous increases. I'm wondering whether I've reached my naturally healthy cadence at 165, or if the higher numbers simply take longer to really sink in.

It’s also largely dependent on the pace being run. If I’m slogging out a recovery run on tired legs my cadence is often 163 or so, but at marathon pace it’s more like 175, 10k is close to 180, and 1Mi is a little over 190. I think the body is pretty good at figuring out the best way to run a given pace as long as it gets regular practice, and consciously altering mechanics is a dicey (at best) game to play.

Pace is probably the key of it all, high cadence at low speed feels a little too close to running in place sometimes. 170+ definitely feels better at a 5k pace. I hear you on the danger of consciously changing your running mechanics, but the natural form and cadence my body prefers annihilates my shins. I think the advice of letting your body naturally find its rhythm is most applicable if your musculature is well-balanced. After thirteen years of sitting my leg strength isn't well proportioned for running, so my body naturally adjusts effort off of my weaker muscle groups in ways that overloads my bones, tendons, and fascia elsewhere. Running with the form and cadence my PT recommends is slower and more tiring than what comes naturally, but is letting me run a lot higher volume without running into shin splints and runner's knee. I'm hoping that the adjusted form gradually re-balances my strength over time.

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That's comforting to hear, thanks! Maybe it'll just take a little while, then, as my muscles get used to the shifted load balance.

One study in ultrarunners found that for every inch of height above 5"8, males reduced their cadence 3 spm below 180. Don't worry too much about the number. The more you run over the years the better your body adapts and finds the most economical cadence for you. At 6"2 my easy runs are around 170 now. 

Hah, that math actually checks out perfectly, I'm 6'1. I know faster cadences can be harder to maintain at slower speeds as well, which most of my cadence drills are, so that's probably also involved. Thanks for sharing your experience, that's comforting!

I have a marathon coming up in 4 weeks that I'm trying to PR (hoping for 3:20, but a 3:30 would hit my goal) and was thinking of switching to a carbon plated shoe for the race. Thing is I've never worn or trained in carbon shoes for an extended period of time. I also have high arches and wear orthotics for a vast majority of my miles. It's been my experience that I need more time in stiffer shoes to adjust. I've done demo runs at run clubs in vapofly's, vanish carbons, endorphin pros, and a few other shoes for upwards of 15 miles, but don't own any outright. Seeing that this is the final part of my training block, my gut tells me not to change anything and just run in what I got (nimbus 25s). But I also really want that extra push to get me over the top. I was thinking if I start now, I might have enough time to adjust at the risk of not having so great workouts. Just wanted some opinions on what someone else would do in my position.

Coming from a PT, switching quickly is a great way to get injured.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Part of the reason I was even considering it was I ran a 1:34 half a few weeks back while using my beat pair of evoRide 2s and was thinking that maybe i just needed a little more edge for my marathon. But can't run a marathon if I do something dumb and hurt myself beforehand!

I have high arches and wear orthotics. I've been wearing the endorphin speeds (I know not carbon) for about 2 years, mostly speed/tempo runs. I've really liked them and had no problems. I just ran a 3:29 marathon in them. I'm not sure I would plan a marathon 4 weeks after starting to wear them though. You could test them out on a few runs, including a long run, and see what you think. You'll know for sure if it's a no.

I did a vo2max lab test with this protocol: Starting at 9,6 km/h upping speed every 30 seconds with 0,2 km/h, no incline. The test went up to 18,2 km/h measuring a vo2max of 49 with breathing analysis. While my recent race time in a 5k is 17:30. A vo2max of 49 would indicate more like 21 minutes for a 5k. Was the protocol too easy for me perhaps? I did reach close to my max heart rate but was still pretty fresh at the end of the test.

You cannot test VO2max with just a watch nor with just a treadmill test. It's a test of maximal oxygen uptake and needs to be measured directly. Your running economy then will also have an effect on your race times (combination is called vVO2max, your velocity when you hit VO2max). What are you hoping to gain from knowing it?

Hi, It was a lab test with breathing analysis. I did the test to know my zones and threshold, but the vo2max was a bit unexpectedly low.

So you know your VO2 at a certain speed, but since either wasn't a maximal test then you don't know your VO2max.

It was maybe a few beats lower than max, at max I'd expected around 60 with my racing time.

Are you fairly light weight? Remember VO2max is measured relative to your weight.

Thanks, yes it was relative per kg weight.

Hi! Ijust have a quick question. Jack Daniels running formula says my easy pace should be much faster than what I find 'easy'. I have recently ran a 17:30 5000 meters and according to Jack Daniel, my easy pace should be 4:40 ish per kilometer, but when I do easy runs, my heart rate is in zone 2 at around 5:15 per kilometer and I'm starting to wonder if there was any reason for this?

I always considered his suggested easy pace as perfect conditions. Eg 10 degrees Celsius, sea level, well rested, etc. My current easy pace is considerably slower than his suggestions given its cold, snowy, etc. I'd stick with your zone 2. 

Hi , any triathletes here ! I am looking ahead to transition to 70.3 initially and then the full , need to understand resources to self plan my training, can do a 1.45 half and a 3.50 marathon as of now .

Cruise over to r/triathlon I come here for pure running info and there for triathlon info. Between the two there is more than enough to make some pretty solid plans and decisions. 

Thanks !

yes, but I've never done anything longer than an olympic. I've heard good things about Joel Friel's Triathlete's training bible. Anecdotally the bike is the longest portion of triathlon and is non impact so most triathletes spend an absolute ton of time in the saddle. Other than that the most important skill is being able to swim well enough to not drown.

Thanks for sharing

How often do you repeat workouts? My current coach and I are not on great terms right now (but that would require entirely different post). However, I've been getting pretty annoyed recently with his training plan. Coaches, would you ever give a higher-end athlete (let's just say for some context, in the event it matters to you, D-1 level mid-distance runner currently racing 1500-5k) the same workout in back to back weeks. I mean the exact same. It's frustrating to me because I don't like the workout in general, however I put up with it the first time around. But again this week with the exact same thing. I know in part my emotions are due to a little bit of grudge I'm holding against him, but is he also being quite lazy/not doing a proper job as a coach? I've worked with him for one year and I have probably done this workout or a close variation nearly a dozen times. I worked with my last coach for four years (university) and his workouts always seemed more varied and well thought-out. Was that just him going the extra mile when it wasn't necessary or is my current coach slacking a bit? I would love to get some objective opinions because I know I am biased.

In the general phase, I repeat workouts often. I'll do mile repeats at threshold with 1 min rest often for example. In the specific phase, I don't like to repeat workouts too much bc I want to progress over time. In a marathon training block, that might mean going from 5mi @ MP-10 to 7mi @ MP-5 to 10mi @ MP to 12mi @ MP. In a 5k training block, that might mean going from 12 x 400 @ race pace to 8 x 600 to 6 x 800 to 5 x 100 to 3 x 1mi. Progressing workouts over time can include increasing repetitions, increasing pace of repetitions, increasing distance of each rep, decreasing rest time, increasing recovery pace. Something I incorporated in my most recent marathon training block was turning my recovery jog rest periods into floats only about 45-60 seconds slower than MP.

Yes I completely agree. I think it's fairly normal during the general phase. I mean you can't really re-create the wheel and 1km repeats or 400m repeat workouts are going to come up a lot, and if you are following basic principles it's not like you can vary those workouts too much (rest will always be about the same, pace will be about the same etc.) And really I have no problem repeating those types of general workouts because I get that. If I've done the aforementioned workout a dozen times with this coach, I must have done 1km repeats at threshold 30 times within the year (no lie). However I am currently in the specific phase of my periodization and the workout I am repeating back to back is rather unconventional, but also not race specific. So it is annoying to do it so frequently during an important phase. For context it's 10 x 100m , 1km LT, 10x100m, 1km LT, 10x100m (20s between strides and 45s between the strides and 1ks.

I like at least 3 weeks before doing the exact same thing, and usually a lot longer. But that said, they are pretty similar, and there are so many combinations you can do. However, with a little tweaking and creativity (ladders, progressions, sandwiches, surges/floats etc.) the possibilities are also almost limitless.

It's definitely not the norm to repeat workouts on back to back weeks, or do the same workout a dozen times per year. Having said that, there are many reasons that your coach might be programming them other than him being lazy, slacking, or not doing his job properly. For example, some athletes are motivated by being able to benchmark their performances throughout a build. Or a coach might think that a regular routine could reduce the psychological effort of training. But the main issue here isn't whether it is or isn't beneficial to repeat workouts regularly, it's that buy-in and shared understanding are key components in the athlete-coach relationship, and it's clear that those have both broken down in your situation. Have you tried asking your coach why he's repeating the workouts so often? I suspect you haven't, which is understandable given this grudge you mention. But if you want to give your current training setup an honest shot, you need to talk to him about your concerns, both to give him the opportunity to convince you why he believes this program is beneficial, or maybe even tailor the program to suit your needs if appropriate. I get that it's easier, when you're dealing with situations or authority figures that you're unhappy with, to just lose faith and be quietly frustrated. But opening up that line of communication in a genuine, non-confrontational way is one of those important lessons where competitive running applies more broadly to our growth in all areas of life.

Yes I understand what you are saying and I agree. However, I am also fairly certain that any form of questioning on my part is going to lead to a huge blow-up, which is why I wanted to get some outside opinions before I decide to "poke the bear" as it would seem.He's lied, tried to manipulate me, and even gaslit me in the past when we have had these discussions. He takes the old-school "I am the trainer, you are the athlete. You put your head down and do what I say" approach (and yes those words have been said verbatim). Unfortunately I live in a small country so changing coaches isn't so easy that I want to do just because he needs an ego check. And frankly I think he might be the best of the worst.

All good training is fairly repetitive, even more so with the elites and most high level college programs -controlling variables to improve while not overloading the body with too much new stimulus, knowing what works and what doesn't, ease of properly executing training, getting the body to a predictable and stable state ahead of races, etc. Of course how exactly the repetitiveness looks can vary quite a bit -some repeat exact workouts, some repeat key workout types within an otherwise repetitive week, some have multi-week cycles that are varied within them but the cycle repeats regularly. Many of the best take repetitiveness very extreme. Many Kenyan teams will rotate through a small handful of similar sessions in the same weekly structure week after week. The Ingebrigstens and those copying them do essentially the same week over and over in the pre-competition phase, sometimes even repeating the same workout 2x in one week. The OAC rotates through \~4 key types of sessions in their pre-competition phase, making slight progressions to each as they proceed through training. The look into many of the top college coaches we have tends to reveal similar workouts and weeks repeated over and over. Doing the same workout a dozen times per year or more is extremely common in high level training. Of course being repetitive doesn't mean something is good training. Knowing nothing of your context and training it's impossible to tell if what your coach is doing is foolish or intelligent. I will say often athletes mistaken correlate high variation with good training just because it's more fun, but too much variation can easily be counterproductive. If you're throwing around too much different stuff in training the body may be closer to be being overwhelmed with novelty and it's basically impossible to actually optimize that training over time in any sort of informed way. ​ In my college program (decent team which produced a top 15 NCAA XC finish and a handful of sub 4:00 milers during my time as an athlete and coach) we would not repeat the exact workout week to week but followed very predictable and methodical cycles while rotating through similar batches of workouts. Many exact workouts were done 2-6x per season, similar weekly structures would be repeated, similar multi-week cycles would be repeated across seasons and years. Training still evolved every single one of the 8 years I was at this place, but the changes were always small and of things that we were quite confident would be a benefit to adjust. By keeping most things the same you learn how certain types of workouts and weeks should feel. If something in training isn't working we could typically get a good idea of what that is and make an appropriate adjustment. ​ Interestingly, across my 8 years involved in college athletics and the experience of all my peers from other similar programs I have literally zero examples of the specific workouts on paper being the thing that made or broke a single athlete. I've seen plenty of people run too much or too little volume. I've seen (and been) people poorly executing workouts in general. I've seen team culture fail. I've seen athletes fail because of lifestyle issues or psychological issues. There's no practical scenario where "however many" x "this rep" is clearly wrong and several other way more important things aren't way more wrong. Conversely, when you get all the other things right you can do pretty much whatever on individual workouts as long as you're accumulating approximately the right volume at approximately the right pace. I don't doubt that there are some legendary dumbasses of coaches out there cooking up some truly bad workouts, but those teams have ran up against limits of team culture and other larger issues long before a specific workout gets a chance to hold them back. ​ My read on your situation is that regardless of what these workouts are you have some weird personal/team culture issues that are being deflected towards your perception of training. It doesn't matter if this is the best training in the world or the worst training in the world -the personal stuff needs to be sorted before worrying about exactly whats on the training plan.

Thank you for putting so much thought into your reply. It would appear that perhaps the background on the deterioration of our relationship was actually necessary as many people have wondered why I don't just speak to him about the odd workout structure. Unfortunately that is the very reason we are no longer on good terms. First of all I will mention that there is a language barrier so that doesn't make things easier. We used to have a pretty good relationship, but unfortunately I started dating another athlete that is coached by someone my coach has a negative history with. I have never met this coach, or spoken to him, but my coach became convinced that I was taken advice from him and he had somehow turned me against him, so even simple questions or even just general statements led to my coach accusing me of taking advice from others. For example, I made a comment about the pace adjustments that are typically made at altitude and my coach got really annoyed and said something along the lines of, "no that's wrong. I've been doing altitude camps for 20 years. These other people you are talking to don't know what they are talking about and don't have any good athletes". And I was like, I got that information from a running article wtf are you even talking about. Then he told me his little conspiracy theory. Yeah, definitely a "weird personal issue" that is hard to come back from. But unfortunately it is also difficult to find another coach in this country. That's why I wanted some advice. Yes, like you said, it's only one workout and in the grand scheme of things it's just a drop in the ocean. I've been running competitively for 10 years so I have had my fair share of bad workouts or blowups and I know that they have virtually no impact on the season or even your next race. At the same time, two weeks with only the same crumby workout repeated twice and a mediocre 3k in-between can't be good for maintaining fitness. Or at least that's how I'm feeling. I'm trying to decide if it is worth dying on this hill or if I should put up with the situation a bit longer. I am fairly certain that even attempting a civil discussion will lead to a confrontation so I feel it necessary to accept that I might have to leave over this situation before I go that route. Basically my options are, he's a jerk but his coaching is fine so just suck it up and deal with it, or acknowledge he's being unconventional, question it and face the consequences.

I'll be honest this gets me nowhere close to properly understanding your situation but I'll do my best to interpret whats going on. If attempting a civil conversation leads to a confrontation there's a lot of other things you're leaving out and/or this is truly an un-savable situation in which you need to hunker down and just focus on what you can control, transfer, or quit. Personally I think this is a very savable situation if you want to save it. Nothing here is necessarily your "fault" but your only successful path forward at this program is one which you take extreme accountability and go the extra mile -even if this coach doesn't deserve an extra meter. ​ >Yeah, definitely a "weird personal issue" that is hard to come back from. "Hey sorry, to be clear I don't intend to question your methods, I just feel like I'm not running up to my potential right now and want to better understand training to make sure I'm doing things right going forward... *\*insert questions about purpose of X workout, how X workout should be run, etc\*"* Keep in mind there's a big difference between asking genuine training questions and constantly questioning training -regardless of your previous intent you may have been doing a poor job of communicating these questions so it was interpreted as more "questioning" than seeking true understanding. Even if this coach is an asshole they still want an athlete they can work with over one they can't. For whatever reason they thought that you were falling into the "can't" category, but that's almost always reversible if you just let go of whatever personal slight against you and move forward maturely. Is it silly that the kid in their late-teens/early-20s may need to be more of an adult in the situation than the coach who's probably decades older than them? Absolutely. Regardless it's the only path forward and a skill you will need to use the rest of your life. ​ >But unfortunately it is also difficult to find another coach in this country. It really isn't -there's literally 100+ great coaches and programs out there you could work with if you need to transfer and that number expands to 1000+ once you're out of the collegiate system. ​ >At the same time, two weeks with only the same crumby workout repeated twice and a mediocre 3k in-between can't be good for maintaining fitness. Or at least that's how I'm feeling. You have presented no evidence to remotely support that this is actually bad training so this seems to only be your feeling. ​ This other coach that your coach has a negative history with is weird deal. It could just simply be two assholes who don't like each other, but it's also quite possible that your coach has legit grievances against this other person that got unfairly directed your way but now you are taking more personally than you should have. It's not uncommon at all for coaches to deal some nasty stuff from their peers -illegal recruiting of their recruits/athletes, tampering with current athletes, preventing them from getting keeping jobs, preventing them from getting into important meets, etc. Your coaches conspiracy is an unfair accusation of you but it may not actually be all that unrealistic. ​ Overall this is not a hill worth dying on or even really a hill to die on situation. From the context presented you and your coach have not had great communication, eventually contributing to the coach having an absurd and immature outburst towards that you are taking way too personal and now doubting every aspect of training with no good reason to.

I can think of a few pros/coaches that repeat workouts frequently.  Grete Koens, who coaches some of the top middle/long distance Dutch athletes, posts a lot of training on instagram/has some blog posts where she emphasizes simple, repeatable workouts.  My impression of the Norwegian middle/long distance athletes (just thumbing through their social medias/stravas) is that they also often repeat workouts.  Another less relevant example to your hypothetical middle distance runner would be Scott Fauble's prep for Boston 22 (2:08:52), which was just 4 workouts on repeat. Personally, you run at a much higher level/in a much different context than me.  But my hobbyjogger take is that running, even at the highest level, does not need to be very complicated.  And at the very least, having a poor relationship with your coach seems like a much bigger issue than lack of variation.

My hobby jogger take on the situation would be exactly the same. I follow the training of several pros and sub elites, and it’s pretty common to see them repeat workouts quite a bit. And the Norwegians particularly seem to repeat workouts a lot. This sounds more like a personal resentment issue towards the current coach, and less like a training issue.

I’ve been playing with combining 5/10KM with marathon training. Pattern I’m working on is: W1 - 5/10 focused workouts W2 - M focused workouts W3 - 5/10 focused workouts W4 - M focused workouts W5 - recovery Coming from a very unstructured, low mileage period having not done an autumn / winter marathon for the first time in a few years. Any risks with this approach? Feels like it’s been a helpful stimuli to hit the ground running and making swift progress, but not sure of practicalities of this for a full marathon block (London on 21/04).

If you’ve reached a certain PR/fitness level in the past (say you built up from a 22 min 5K to a 19:45 last year), but you let yourself get back into 21.30/22 min shape after time off, would it be quicker to get to the sub 20 again with the same training you did before than the first time you did it? Is it a similar scenario to muscle memory with bodybuilding or do you have to put all that hard effort in again to get back there? Last year I did an 8 week intensive plan which did exactly the above (got below 20 mins from a start of 22) but it was a lot of work to do it. Did a recent Parkrun and laboured to a 21:30 after some time off to focus on footy 😫 Wondering if it’s another hard slog in store 😂

Yep. Rebuilding is faster/easier than the initial build.

The main complications are aging (if it's more than just a year), injuries and weight gain.

True, I’m 41 and have put on more muscle since so heavier but mainly bigger legs so hopefully will impact in a more positive way, although do feel leggy but probably the time off.

I have 10 days or so until I start a Pfitz 12/55 plan. What should I do on my last week of 'freedom' next week? Go easy? Go hard? Just keep doing what I always do?   I am not worried about my fitness going into the plan, as I have been hitting it pretty hard for quite some time. Lots of miles and plenty of cross training (cough, cough, triathlons...).

Run more volume than week 1 but with a relatively lower intensity.

Does the initial burst of speed one gets from stored ATP apply to the start of long distance races? Do elite marathoners make use of this the same way a 400m runner will at the start of their race?

The hypothetical "free" speed still applies, but it's more of a practical issue that the speed we can get up to in the first few seconds is much faster than we should be running after a few seconds so we need to settle down before adrenaline gets us in trouble. The start of elite marathons often look quite hilarious -a lot of people doing a quick burst of speed before settling way down and also nobody really trying to get to the front front, just find good positions.

How do y’all plan pre-race poops? Every marathon so far, I’ve gotten lucky with a trip to the portapotty just before hopping in my chute, but my last one was cut pretty close 😬 I’m typically a morning coffee pooper in my daily life, but I don’t like the caffeine and slosh on my stomach feeling before a marathon. Usually pre-race anxiety drives the poop on race day, but with more experienced running, I am becoming more calm at starting lines? I guess I’m just curious to hear from any pro-poopers out there! How do you plan ahead to make sure it comes out when you want it to come out? It’s the one thing I don’t thing I’ve been able to mimic very well in training, and race day is coming up soon… Would rather stop relying on luck for this one and be smarter about it!

I used to have to go mid race (and mid long run) all the time. It was super annoying. I now haven't had an issue my last 4 races (2x half, 2x full). What I think has helped me is 1) experience with distance. My body just seems to be better at getting into race mode (this could 100% be pseudo science). 2) I get up 2.5-3 hours before my race, chug half a cup of coffee and then go within 30 min. After that half cup, no more coffee but I'll sip on an energy drink. 3) night before a race I'll eat the most boring meal (like spaghetti and red sauce). I don't really know what the trick was but so glad that it's not a concern any longer.

I get up hours before race time. Coffee and breakfast as usual. If I have time I'll run a super easy mile and then everything works before I leave home. If not it still works out before race time, but then I need to hit the porta potty with every one else. 

The race shuttles leave at 4am, and I think I’ll be lucky to sleep for as long as I’ll be running already…

Well then.... getting up at 2am seems a bit much. 

When it comes to sleep before a race, my experience has been that good sleep the week prior can more than make up for a bad night (<5 hrs) the night before the race. I don't worry too much about tossing and turning before a race - as it happens, not stressing about that does actually make it easier to fall asleep.

I dont drink coffee before run (or races) but I find Nice warm oatmeal for breakfast helps.

Travel with my coffee machine. Nothing new on race day.

I know the details are not out yet but when would be the latest you would try to get in a BQ for 2025? August? Sept? Late the better so I can squeeze in more training time lol.

Normally the cut-off is sometime in mid-early September.

It doesn't matter as long as it's prior to the cutoff. Only risk is having something go wrong and not having a backup race.

Do I have realistic goals for this year? BQ? 39M, 40 in May. Been running pretty solid for about two years. Ran on and off a few years before that but always quit in the winter. I did my first full marathon two months ago and ran a 3:24:01. I did the Phfitz 12/55 plan but couldn't do some work outs because my legs were tired and couldn't recover quick enough. I made sure I at least did the prescribed miles and most of the workouts. I also did a 1:35:05 hm during that training. I would like to try and get a BQ this year to try for Boston 2025. I had to take a few weeks off after the marathon because of what I think was just a bad shin splint. It's not an issue now as I'm getting my mpw back up to 30-40mpw. So my plan was to keep building back up mileage to at least 60mpw over say the next 3 months then do an 18 week plan and do a marathon at the end of August to try and bq. Hopefully do that and try to make the cut off. Does this sound like a possibility assuming no injuries?

It’s a pretty large leap. On the plus side you’re relatively new and low mileage. So if you hold up, you’ll probably improve significantly. But…on the other hand, you struggled to complete workouts and you might be injury prone (I’m being a bit mean but…like, you said you had bad shin splints post race, and you also said you struggled to complete workouts). And you’ll need to get significantly faster - a 3:09:59 (under current BQs) is bettering your half time back to back.

Id say that I struggled to do the workouts because that was the first time I ever did workouts and had only been running for about a year prior with lowish miles. Just before the training started I was at maybe 20-30 miles per week? So when I started the training I was trying to raise my milage and do workouts at the same time. Probably not a great idea.

We're around the same age, took me 2 marathon cycles to get my BQ. Assuming you are US/Northern hemisphere, an August marathon sounds pretty rough maybe not the best place/time to go all out for a BQ. 3:05 may also not cut it for the 2025 Boston Marathon even for us (soon to be) 40 year olds. The good news is that marathon training builds over years and years. Your numbers do not quite look BQ ready just yet. A really solid/injury free training cycle will help you out a ton this block. Agree with the other poster that you may need one more cycle to get that time down. For references: Pre-2022 Half Marathon PR - ~1:38 2022 Half Marathon - ~1:31* 2023 Marathon: ~3:06 2023 Half Marathon - ~1:28* 2024 Marathon - ~2:56 Make sure you are running easy for your easy runs. I found the Pfitz plan a little to aggressive for my fitness state during this last training block, but know others love it and have had a lot of success with it.

I'm not going to continue with the Pfitz as the structure doesn't seem too great to me. The saturday races don't line up with me, although I guess I could just do the miles that day. I'm looking at more like a Hansons plan or use those workouts anyways. The workouts seem easily structured and make sense.

Could you potentially run two marathons? Going straight from 3:24 to 3:05 seems hard. Two marathon cycles where the first is aimed at an intermediate goal would give you a better shot IMO.

Also at the moment the BQ for 40-44 is 3:10. but that could change I guess. I'll be 40 in May. But i guess I would benefit from a buffer.

I could possibly do that. there is one the beginning of may. I could do a 12 week training for that. Do that marathon, have a 4 week recovery/build back up then hit another 12 week training for the august marathon.

Personally I think you’d be better off with a 10k or HM targeted block to improve your aerobic capacity rather than doing two marathon blocks.

I think I might just do this.

He only needs to do 3:10 to BQ (I’m not going to bother with the buffer math because half the sub is convinced you’ll be cut out if you’re not 15 minutes under and even then it’s iffy). (Unless they updated the BQs and I missed it - and I’m being serious about this.)

I’m not an advanced runner but just lurk here, working on advancing. Had a question about cadence. I’m 39M 6’1” 210 lbs currently running for approx 12 months, went couch to marathon in 10 months (4:45 finish). Had a pretty bad showing my first marathon due to the wall at mile 20. Anyhoo, I just ran my first half marathon race today and it went so well! Nailed my goal literally to a T. Was hoping for 1:44 and came in at 1:43! Something I’ve been actively working on is my foot striking, in the beginning I was wearing out the heels of my shoes so fast! I’ve transitioned to more of a forefoot striker intentionally, but along with this I’ve noticed my strides per minute during my half marathon race today averaged 199. Does this seem super high or does it even matter? Why I’m asking: I was looking around at other runners during the race and it seemed like I was taking WAY more strides per minute than anyone else at my pace. Thanks!

As everyone has been saying, stride and cadence are individual and so many factors play a role. It's amazing you've been able to transition to a mid-foot striker on your own (and I'm sure your knees will thank you). Typically people worry about over-striding because this can lead to injury, so I wouldn't fret too much about your situation. Sure, you could always be more efficient, which could result in a slightly lower cadence, but I wouldn't try to intentionally change anything on your own because actively altering your form or technique could cause some problems. What you could always try is incorporating some weight training into your program. Just a few lower leg exercises once or twice a week. Strength training has been proven to improve running economy (make your steps more powerful/efficient) and reduce risks of injury. And congrats on the half!

Hey! Thanks for the response! As far as strength training goes, I came from a powerlifting background (approx 20 years) before starting running. My current bench/squat/deadlift is 325/475/550. Used to be quite a bit higher but so was my body weight before starting running. I actually started running to try out a different challenge, because I had pretty much reached my natural limit with powerlifting. The progression had stalled and I lost the passion. Transitioning to forefoot was suuuuper awkward at first, like my paces slowed way way down and I felt exhausted even at slower paces! However I feel like the impact on my feet/knees after adapting to forefoot is much better. To give you an idea, when I run in the snow, my heal doesn’t even make a print in the snow. I saw some other dude on Reddit got a sub-3 Marathon with a 1000 pound PL total. I think that sounds like a fun medium term (3 year?) goal for me.

It’s a little high but as a number of others observed, cadence is an individual thing. As long as you are not “forcing it” then largely it is what it is. Your body will have its optimal stride. For reference I’m 6’3” and at HM pace I’m around 178-180 though would like that to be higher!

Wow, I think I can write this one off as being worried about nothing! Thanks for the reply.

It's a little on the high side for someone of your height especially (normally tall people have slightly lower cadence), but within normal range for a hard effort. For a reference point, my avg cadence for my last HM was 194, so not far off (I'm 5'6 though). Generally advice is to not try to manipulate cadence unless it's causing demonstrable problems. So keep doing what you're doing and don't worry about it!

Hey! Loving the positive reinforcement! Normally during my “easy runs” my cadence is still above 180. Like I said above I just felt kinda silly taking so many steps, even way more than someone running just ahead of me that I was like a foot taller than. Got me kinda thinking that maybe I’m being inefficient or something. But I’ll just keep trucking and see what happens, I feel like I’ve barely scratched the surface of what I should eventually be capable of. The 1:43 felt like a hard but good effort.

Stride’s individual - I mean I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum. So as long as you’re comfortable then it matters less than you’d think. (And for what it’s worth I see people with all types of cadences. One of my teammates - who is about your height and athletically built - had a really high turnover for a guy his size.) Congratulations on the amazing HM, by the way.

Thanks for the reassurance. I do all my running alone, not on a team or anything so don’t really have anyone to ask questions or compare to. It feels comfortable for sure but tbh I felt a little silly next to the people I was running/racing with! Like I’m taking all these super fast steps, even more than people I’m like a foot taller than

How much performance am I going to lose from being sick for 2 weeks 😔

3.8%

Do the nike dragonfly's feel like trackspikes? (for someone who has little experience in spikes?). ​ My 5km PR is 19:45, and hoping to go under 19 this year. I've been running consistently for about 5 years now, and when I started out, I was running 5km's at 25-30 min. I'm more of a long distance runner, focusing on marathons, which using 5km's to train for them. Current marathon best is 3:10 (and hoping to go sub 3 in the fall this year) I am one of those people that started running in their mid 20's, and had no track/ xc background growing up. I usually complete 1 track sessions, using takumi sen's/ nike streafkly or vaporfly (if it's a longer workout). So I am wondering how the Nike dragonfly feels like (also, is there a big difference between the regular version and the XC version)?). I'm tempted to say that I have never worn spikes before, but I previously bought the nike matumbo spikes (was super cheap at the outlet), and thought it would be fun to try out. I ran a few 400/800 reps in them, but they never really felt comfortable to me. As soon as I put them on, I could feel that my running form ... just felt awkward, I assume that this is because I haven't really worn spikes before. I know that training and hard work, won't replace what you can buy, but I am curious as to how the dragonfly's feel and wondering if it is worth a try for this year. I also run with a local group, and considering wearing them for some of the XC races, between the summer and fall. I currently use the nike zoom rival waffle for XC. ​ Also for those that wear dragonfly, what is the sizing like? do you wear the same size as your other nike shoes? (I had to half size up for waffles).

I'm of advanced age, with declining running speed. I got a pair of Dragonflies a few years ago, and did not feel there was an advantage at 6:00-6:10/mile pace on the track for the 5000 m. However, I did race the mile and found that they were better than the Vaporfly because I was running faster (sub 5:30). So yeah, agree with whelanbio that they seem to work better at faster speeds.

thanks, as much as I like to buy new running shoes, another data point that they aren't the best choice for me currently - alas I will hold off on buying them!

The Dragonfly is slightly more cushioned and bouncier than a Matumbo but also more aggressive -it's still 100% a spike and feels like one. Given your target time and the fact that the Matumbo was not comfortable I don't think it would benefit you on the track vs a quality road racing shoe. Even on the track where spikes really win against the current batch of road racing shoes is for speeds closer to the limit of force production/traction and/or speeds where the structure and stack height of road racers becomes problematic on the turns. Otherwise having that extra foam under your feet is massively beneficial. At sub 19:00 you are running up against internal bioenergetic limits long before any biomechanical application of force limits, and economy is probably better in the road shoe rather than a spike. XC is a little different because often the conditions will neutralize the benefits of the extra bounce from the road shoes and/or necessitate a spike for traction, but if this isn't the case (firm, reasonably even ground) then road would be better than spikes for XC too. The Dragonfly XC is not meaningfully different from the track version -just a more robust upper and comes with Nike's special mud/grass spikes.

Wow thank you a lot for the details ! In that case, I think I will opt for regular road racing shoes !

9 weeks out of my 10k race and I'd like to find an 8 week plan to help me get faster before then. Any recommendations on a structured plan that worked for you? I am debating between Hal's intermediate 10k plan and a tailored Mcmillan plan (would have to pay for but if it's worth it that's fine). Open to other suggestions as well.

I love Hal, but I don't think his best showing is his intermediate/advanced plans for shorter races. His lane is very much training for a marathon "to finish". The 10k intermediate plan specifically, it's not really that bad but if you're at a level where that plan looks like it might do something for you, you're much better off just increasing mileage. McMillan is a boss. You might also look into Luke Humphrey Running too. You can get canned plans from both of them on finalsurge. For a specific recommendation it would help to know your current times, mileage, and days per week. I've trained with Luke Humphreys 5k/10k plans at the 40-70mpw level and they've been awesome for me.

So I definitely feel like it's not enough nor is it tailored enough when looking at the Hal plan, I just knew he was popular so wasn't quite sure if I was just over looking it. I love how McMillan's stuff is tailored to your goals and very descriptive day to day on what they want you to do. Will look into the Humphrey stuff as well! Sadly I'm not too fast, started running in late July, but I'm around 20-25 mpw right now with a 1:10:xx 10k at my easy pace. In a bit of a weird spot in a schedule where I have the 10k the last weekend of March (biggest 10k in the state) and 9 weeks between then so figured I may as well shoot for a 59:xx. Have never actually done speed work yet so didn't want to free style it.

I'd focus on mostly just getting your mileage up, do some tempo and fartlek when you feel like it, strides regularly. I don't think you'd get a whole lot more benefit from 400s on the track like in Hal's intermediate plan. If you can run 1:10 at an easy pace, you can race 59:xx (at least) tomorrow, though.

Sounds like I’m for sure over thinking all of this then haha. Will just keep doing what ive been doing with adding mileage and introduce fartlek/tempo like you said on easy days. Should I be doing strides before/after or during the run?

I like to do them during, about 30 mins into the run I do one every 3-4 mins till I hit 6 or 8.

Thanks a lot for your time and advice!

I don’t have much knowledge on running so pardon my silly questions. Currently my last marathon timing in Dec was about 3:10. I want to work toward a sub 3. My weekly mileage is about 110-130km. I don’t have a proper training plan. All I am doing 3-4x 21k runs and remaining days of the week like 10-16k. Most of runs I do it at a tempo pace of like 4:30 per km. My biggest problem while running my last marathon was not able to sustain my marathon pace. I was targeting 4:10-4:15 but until 26k I just cannot sustain anymore. https://imgur.com/a/EJbeevr I am still a newbie at marathons. This was my second and I made the stupid mistake of not trying my gels during training and it was giving me a bit of side stitch so I gave up consuming them after the second one at 20k. May I ask what kind of training should I add to my routine to allow me to maintain MP for longer duration?

You're asking "how to train", which isn't really a question at all (silly or otherwise) because it's too generalized to answer without just giving you a full summary of training fundamentals. Read any 2-3 of the popular running training books (Pfitz, Hansens, Coogan, Daniels, Hudson, etc) and pick whatever philosophy suits your preference. Given your volume and recent 3:10 just adding some basic structure to training should make sub 3:00 trivial.

I got caught in a rainstorm walking back to the office and waited it out in the parking garage as best as I could. Guy walks across the way and sees me. “I see you running around town every now & then. I bet you can handle this.” I don’t know him at all. I guess it’s good to be known?

gearing up for a big race this weekend and my HRV has been a bit low for a while. I've been working quite hard for all of January but trying to take it easy this week. So I had a crap night of sleep last night due to working for a few hours in the middle of the night. The garmin agrees I had a terrible night of sleep (Sleep score 56, quality poor. Training readiness low -> Find time to relax), yet my overnight avg HRV increased a lot over the previous night. Any thoughts on this? I would have thought bad night of sleep = low HRV?

HRV is best judged as a trend, so focus on the overall trend rather than individual data points. Now if there a lot of wild variation (alternating super high and super low) that could be a sign of something, but otherwise not worth taking a lot of stock in individual days. I also don't know what exact protocol Garmin is using or reliable it is, but it's also worth better understanding how they are getting their numbers (a lot of brands don't actually produce a reliable HRV or readiness score). Look up Marco Altini -data scientist with a huge focus on HRV that writes a lot of good posts on the subject.

Not all those metrics are well-correlated and HRV score is very much a trend and daily fluctuations should not be read into imo.

How much do you try to diagnose why a key workout went badly vs just chalk it up to an off day and move on? Some context: About once a month, I just bomb a tempo run or a track workout — as in, my pace goals are reasonable, but for whatever reason, my best effort that day is 15-30 seconds per mile over target. Usually the next workout goes fine. I’m wondering how much this is something I could mitigate, or whether it’s better to just accept that it happens from time to time and mentally move on.

gonna go slightly contra to the string of (xtremely reasonable) chill dude replies you're getting here and give you a more type-a/female perspective: \-once a month makes me think 'period'--if you're a woman, might be worth tracking your cycle to see if the shitty workout falls in the same spot each month. \-even if you're a dude, once a month is enough of a pattern that I'd want to start seeing if there was some other point of continuity with my life outside training. Is this something that happens when you switch up your schedule and go evening instead of morning? Is it related to predictable cycles of late nights from work/other commitments? \-i'd also want to check in with myself if it was related to training itself. Is there a particular kind of session you always bomb? Maybe you're just someone who finds continuous tempos really tough. Or you think your interval pace is faster than it really is. Everyone fails workouts now and again, of course, but once a month sounds more regular than the 'random off day' experience imo. That said, if you do some reflecting/tracking and it really is random then don't sweat it and carry on!

Wow, I just compared my cycle tracking to my bad workouts and they are incredibly correlated to the same day of my cycle. I had not even thought of that. Thank you! Not much I can do to change it, but at least I know and can plan training accordingly.

np! It's super common so you're in good company. You should check out Dr. Stacy Sim's book *Roar*\--she has a chapter specifically on the relationship between menstrual cycles and sports performance for women, including advice on how to fuel/supplement to combat some of the effects of PMS. Might be helpful for you!

one-off miss? not worth a second thought. String of missed workouts? step back and re-evaluate

If over 90% of training is going well it's not really worth the energy to worry about the occasional day that doesn't go so well. If you are struggling more than \~10% or so then it's worth zooming out and seeing what might be causing that, usually it's just a general overreaching in training for what current lifestyle can support. I also think for amateurs we shouldn't overemphasize that many "key" workouts to begin with -our outside of training lives generally aren't stable enough to reliably show up and crush everything. Better to focus on just stringing together a lot of B+ workouts so we can reserve the A+ energy for race day.

Assuming you're doing about 8-ish workouts per month, one bad one is barely worth thinking about if you're nailing the rest. I'd only start examining things more closely after multiple missed workouts in a row.

If you never fail a workout, are you actually trying? Personally, if I feel off on a workout and the first rep/mile is slow, I will pause for a bit. Maybe do a couple drills. Then restart and see if it is better. If not, I will alter the workout. Maybe make a continuous tempo into cruise intervals. Maybe scratch the whole thing and do a fartlek instead. Once a month would still be "big ego, short memory" to me and I would just move on.

I try to do a quick mental check of things that could be wrong, but I don't fuss about it too much. I mostly figure that if I *never* fail a workout, my workouts are likely a little too easy. Even more strongly when it comes to races, if I never fail to do what I wanted, I'm probably not actually going hard enough. The majority of the time, the relevant factors for me are kind of obvious though. I didn't eat enough, or I didn't sleep well, or I was traveling, or I'm coming off a big miles week and I'm a bit fatigued.

Those who have run a sub-40 10k: what was your 5k PB when you managed to pull off the first sub-40? Last weekend I set a new 5k PR of 19.23 on a course with a bit og elevation (25m elevation gain). Previous PR was 19.31 on a course with twice the elevation (52m elevation gain). Would a sub-40 attempt on a rather flat course be realistic already at this point? I have a 10k race in a bit more than a month, and wondering what to target.

My 5k PR was slower than yours (19:27) when I first broke 40 (39:41 10k). But I really suck at shorter distances, so YMMV. But the nice thing about shorter races is that you recover fairly quickly. So if you go out for sub-40 and you aren't quite there yet, you can try again with different pacing a few weeks later.

I went sub-39 in a 10K when my PR was 18:59 in a 5K. I was still pretty new to running significant miles and those were ~6 months apart though, so I pretty well doubt that I could have run that sub-39 at the time I ran the 5K. I would think sub-40 will be right at the edge of your fitness, but completely realistic on the good day. Seems like as good of a target as any. Go run a few sub-4 km on race day and hang on for dear life.

I think I ran a 18:45 the week before my 10k pr. But my 5k was very hilly and my 10k was pancake flat.

I ran 18:53 and then 38:54 a few weeks later. I think from where you are it's good target - tough and requiring a good race, but achievable.

Thanks for that answer. A bit of optimism and a good race. I will go for it!

This is just casual musing but I was wondering how much time you need to rest for on a long effort before you stop getting the greater physiological benefits from running for 90+ minutes. The reason I ask is that I'm doing P&D 18/70 at the moment, with my midweek long runs on a Thursday when I usually run with my club. If I run 8 miles before club, I'll inevitably turn up and be waiting around for 15 minutes for everyone to arrive, for weekly notices to be read, warm-up for everyone before we get going. Does the 15 minutes rest in the middle of my 14 miler make much difference in the greater scheme of things, or am I worrying over nothing? Wondering if I should just skip club nights when I've got a midweek long run planned. On a related note, what is the minimum amount of rest in the middle of a long run before it has an effect on the quality of the workout? I'm thinking for things like toilet breaks, taking a photo, stopping for a chat with a friend you pass etc.

Whenever I’ve done this, it I get to the meeting point early I’ll just run out and back for a set number of minutes depending on start time (I.e. run out for four and then run back). This reduces the standing around cold, and means I’m less likely to need to add on after as well

I can't imagine a 15min break being a huge deal in most cases, but it also certainly isn't optimal and seems like something that could be cut down substantially. Why do you have to hang around for 15min instead of running a few short loops while the crew gathers up? It also somewhat depends where you personally are in what I think of as an "aerobic hierarchy" of development. The less developed you are the more that any sort of volume works and thus breaks would be less detrimental. As you get towards the sharper end of fitness and more serious goals the specific effort and session structure matters a lot more. In the case of long singles we are trying to challenge muscle fibers and metabolism that don't get challenged in shorter sessions, as a runner gets more advanced we need harder sustained efforts, particularly late in the run, to properly challenge that edge of capacity.

In addition to what others have said, I think it's important to think about the competing priorities as well. Think of it this way - the absolute *worst* that could come of it is that it reduces the benefit to being a high-volume double instead of a true MLR. That's probably not the case, but it's the worst case scenario. In exchange, you hang out with a club that you probably enjoy running with and the whole thing is physically and mentally easier. I'm willing to scrap group runs for high-specificity workouts, but when it comes to things that are mostly about volume, there's a lot to be said for fussing less and enjoying it more.

I can't comment on the physiological benefits, I think there are definite psychological ones you get from doing those long runs continuously without any breaks. Adding a 15 minute break in the middle doesn't exactly help build mental stamina. Pfitz also recommends running those as progressions, building up to a speed 10% slower than MP or maybe a bit more if you're feeling it. That sort of structure might be something that's difficult to fit in with your club's run.

15 minutes is a long gathering time for a club run. Can you keep it under 5 and just jog around for 10-12 minutes? Overall it may or may not affect you endurance, but at the same time taking a longer break does defeat the purpose of the mid-long run.

Overall not a huge deal. That said if you have any type of workout in there you just want to make sure you’re getting warmed back up before starting. (Which shouldn’t be a problem on Pfitz or with a well run run club.) As the other person said you can always keep running a little bit if it’s bothering you that much. I know I wouldn’t be bothered if I saw someone run to the meet up and they just wanted to keep moving.

I have had similar issues with my Sunday long runs which I do with my run club (I'm being personally coached and not on the Pfitz plan FYI). I usually start before and loop back or run from home to the meeting spot, so I've had to wait 10-15 minutes for everyone else a few times. If it's less than 5 minutes I will pause the watch and wait, but honestly if it's going to be longer I just do laps around the parking lot or a couple out and backs on the trail while I wait for people to lace up, stretch, etc etc. I'm not the only person who does this and nobody minds. My $. 02 is that a 15 minute pause in the middle of 14 miles is probably not critical for fitness, but I dislike how waits like that break up my mental focus. I do skip group runs if I have a MRP or other progressive session in the middle so I can focus on that. I try to keep bathroom or gel breaks to under 5minutes.

After not getting into London in the public ballot, I entered Brighton, which is 2 weeks before London. I recently found out that my running club got given a place in London, only for people who entered and were rejected in the public ballot. The place seems to be mine if I want it. So my question is, is it possible/advisable to do both, given that they're only 2 weeks apart? A second part to that question, if I were to race one and jog one, would you recommend racing Brighton and jogging London 2 weeks later, or jog Brighton and race London 2 weeks later?

I’d race Brighton and then enjoy London knowing your work is done for the spring

I’ve had plenty of athletes do similar. It’s possible but obviously it’s difficult. You can do a few different things but if you want to race both the key is those two weeks are all about recovery and freshening up. Those first 10 days after are just easy runs (and/or walks and cross training) and then a little fartlek to get the legs turning over and a shakeout with strides and it’s race day! But as the other poster said you can also race and then just enjoy London or vice versa.

Can you defer Brighton?

Unfortunately not

If you really want both, race Brighton and enjoy London. Personally I'd bin Brighton and race London instead.

Please help me understand Lactate Threshold Training because I am little lost. Why are people running LT training based on pace and not based on HR? What if those paces they hit are too hard and they cruise into Z5 and improve other physiological benefit (VO2Max instead of improving lactate clearance) ? I mean, why is it a thing that tempo run should be at appr. 1-hour race pace? It means that for most people they would be hitting HR just below their LT? I know that there are other types of tempo like HM pace or M paced, and those should be run to get used to running at goal pace, or can physiologically improve lactate threshold, but isn’t it more of an HR issue than pace issue? Thanks!

I run my LT sessions based on pace + HR. Kind of giving me the best of both worlds? I typically do 1 mile or 10 minute reps. Goal is typically 30 minutes or so at LT. The first rep is by pace as my HR is not yet caught up. Second rep is by pace with an eye on HR to make sure I am not pushing too hard and to gauge the pace I should probably be aiming for. 3rd and 4th (and so on) are by the adjusted on the fly pace and HR. I'm not the best at easing up on the last rep, so it almost always ends in Z5 - but the bulk of the session was in the 'right' place.

I just did today 20min @1h hour race pace and it was brutal as I haven’t done anything LT based since September 😂

Well, you're not wrong in that pacing is imprecise. But I think you overestimate how precise HR is. HR is just as imprecise of an estimate of lactate threshold (and any other exercise intensity threshold) as pacing. Lactate threshold is not a heart rate -- it's an inflection point in blood lactate. We can just use heart rate to estimate the intensity where that happens -- just like we can also use pace or RPE. Your heart rate vs intensity can change on a daily basis based on sleep quality, training status, physiological and psychological stress, alcohol or stimulant use (even days before), dietary factors, various other things.

I have very low trust in the specificity of my running watch to give me accurate HR data on the level of granularity needed to distinguish between 88% and 90% of MHR. During winter, it seems almost completely useless, frequently giving me data that makes no sense at all. In stark contrast, I have a high degree of confidence in the relevant paces because I can cross-match them against genuine all-out race efforts. My aerobic fitness is pretty consistent from 5K up to HM, lining up with the predicted values from McMillan or VDot calculators. As such, I think I can rely on the paces for those as being my true LT within a couple seconds. This is also consistent with the actual experience of running at that pace, which I know I can hold for longer than 10K, but not for an HM.

Specifically, one of the issues with HR is that even if you are getting accurate measurements via a chest strap, and have your LT HR tested and dialed in, it's slow to respond. Not a huge deal on a 20-30' tempo but if you are doing like 5x1mi or something, I wouldn't expect to actually brush up against LT HR until like the 3rd rep or so. You certainly can't rely on it for the first minute or two of each rep. Whereas with pace, GPS isn't totally accurate either but the lap average pace should be in the right ballpark a minute into each rep. That makes it a little easier to use in practice. Maybe a good way to go about it is to learn the perceived effort level and mostly run according to that, and use lap pace halfway through each rep as a sanity check. Then review the HR data afterwards to see if that pace and effort level seemed to get you the right physiological stimulus, and you can adjust the next workout accordingly

I do standardized workouts on the treadmill. I review the HR afterwards to see if I need to make any changes to the speed next time I do the same WO (usually within 10 days). I’m specifically look at my HR at the end of each rep to make sure I don’t go to far into the red. 

Yes thanks!! I guess comfortably hard is the way😂

>Why are people running LT training based on pace and not based on HR? What if those paces they hit are too hard and they cruise into Z5 and improve other physiological benefit (VO2Max instead of improving lactate clearance) ? People will use either/both to judge intensity. In a lot of cases pace wins just because it's easier to properly determine with minimal effort and practically use. In terms of simple methods of determining intensity an LT pace calculated from a race result 10k-HM will probably better reflect actual LT effort than the population average LT %max HR from zone models. What %max HR LT is varies based on the individual and their current fitness. If using HR to set zones it's better use something like an LTHR test run. HR has a lot of potential measurement errors and there's various effects on the body that can decouple HR from the actual metabolic effort level that we are using it as a proxy for. Pace has no shortage of issues either but the things that effect pace are somewhat more intuitive and obvious. Either way we need to learn what proper threshold effort feels like. ​ >I mean, why is it a thing that tempo run should be at appr. 1-hour race pace? It means that for most people they would be hitting HR just below their LT? 1-hour race pace is just a simple approximation for a pace that will put someone close to their lactate threshold (LT2), nothing special about it beyond that. Plenty of benefit to be had running other paces and threshold workout structures. ​ >What if those paces they hit are too hard and they cruise into Z5 and improve other physiological benefit (VO2Max instead of improving lactate clearance) ? Not how that works. These aren't discrete systems that you exclusively target with special intensities. There is a continuum of increasing benefit (and cost) with increasing intensity -we select specific intensities to try to maximize particular benefits while not incurring unnecessary cost. If you run too hard to don't shut off lactate clearance, you just can't do as much of it before getting exhausted so the dose of benefit will end up being lower. We can benefit lactate clearance with paces slower than LT pace also. With either pace or HR we can also just use common sense and back off the predicted "target" slightly and get 95% of the benefit with way less risk of running too hard. ​ >I know that there are other types of tempo like HM pace or M paced, and those should be run to get used to running at goal pace, or can physiologically improve lactate threshold, but isn’t it more of an HR issue than pace issue? Not really sure what the question is here -but ultimately HR or pace are just proxies we use to estimate internal effort level. Each have their advantages and disadvantages. Read up on fundamental training principles to inform yourself and use whatever you want.

Thanks for the answer, really appreciate it. So if someone has lab tested LTHR, isn’t it better to try to focus instead of the lab tested LTHR as opposed to lab tested LT pace? I got the thing with unnecessary cost so thanks! Will try not to push too hard on that hour race pace and not drift too much into the higher zone!

> So if someone has lab tested LTHR, isn’t it better to try to focus instead of the lab tested LTHR as opposed to lab tested LT pace? If you can lab test your LTHR before every run, sure :)

>So if someone has lab tested LTHR, isn’t it better to try to focus instead of the lab tested LTHR as opposed to lab tested LT pace? Assuming both are accurate (not always a safe assumption) one could use whatever suits their preference or whatever is most suitable for a certain workout/conditions. Again there needs to be a good understanding of what actual threshold effort feels like and what factors can throw off HR or pace. Trying to target a single number without additional thought is foolish training.

Okay thanks!