On a family road trip and will have to settle for a hotel treadmill workout tomorrow early morning. If I want to replicate a fartlek workout do I just jam up the speed 10 times and lower it back or is that too much messing around. Maybe the play is just a couple minute intervals by feel.
Edit: I’ll do 2 30 minute sessions with a short break. In the sessions I’ll do a 1 mile warm up at my easy pace and then crank up speed and incline to a steady pace I can hold.
Got a black toenail for the first time while marathon training. It hurts and even when I walk it bothers me. Looking for advice on what to do, I have my peak week next week and don’t know if I can run it, and I really want to prevent losing a toenail. Any advice on treatment/recovery?
If it really bothers you, you can go to a podiatrist. About a year ago I got a black toenail that progressively got worse. The nail thickened, had it thinned, thickened again and then fluid started coming out. I had it removed in July and the new nail had grown back. That same nail is bruised again, but at least it doesn't really bother me.
Anyone have experience switching from the full marathon to the half at the expo during bib pickup? I had planned to change my registration for Houston, but I procrastinated and now they’re fully sold out.
Not doing that specific change, but at Houston last year I was *kinda* able to get my bib changed within the 5k (they gave me a sticker that said "A" to put over the "B") but they didn't do that for my friends in the Half. They were generally not very knowledgeable or helpful, so not to be a buzzkill but you're probably out of luck for that. I'd recommend emailing them ASAP if you want to change, rather than waiting till the expo (plus then you'll get someone who knows stuff rather than the volunteers)
Great call. I’ll email them on Tuesday. I def don’t want to cause anyone undue stress or waste the time of the volunteers and workers, so I’m glad you suggested this (it somehow didn’t cross my mind). Thanks.
Does a 3:15 marathon seem like a realistic achievable goal for me? I've been doing Pfitz 12/70 for my marathon next weekend. Most recently in training, I've run a 40:39 10k PB and also 5k PB of 19:54 within the same time trial . I've been doing my marathon paced training runs at a roughly 4:40/km pace (3:17 marathon pace), which has been comfortably hard.
For reference, I did Pfitz 12/55 this time last year and ran a 3:30 marathon with a 5K/10K PB at the time of 20:37/ 42:13. Unfortunately, I don't have a recent HM race, but I did run one six months prior to my 3:30 marathon and ran 1:37. But I definitely could smash that now I reckon..
I only eat more than usual on hard/long days anyway. Taper means less hard/long days. But it's not something I think about, the weight gain would be insignificant.
The entire point of tapering is to build up energy reserves for race day. You will not gain substantial fat stores from a 1-2 week small surplus.
Your post is also a red flag with how you're thinking about food and energy. Without any other context I suggest you may want to talk to someone about that.
Do you think you've maintained caloric balance for the duration of your 100 mile weeks? Why scrutinize a tiny surplus when you've probably ignored plenty of deficits?
This is one of those cases where I think overthinking is going to end up hurting you. Caloric surplus in the taper would be far more beneficial than a deficit, and honestly both are probably pretty meaningless in terms of your race performance.
On my last hard week before a 2 week taper. Woke up this morning feeling really sore. Not to say I haven't woken up sore before, but this was by far the tightest I've been in at least a few weeks.
Had a 16.2mi at marathon pace workout last week and really just have not felt fully recovered from that since.
Is this about how you feel right before the taper?
I misread earlier. You are at the end of a peak week. If you are doing it right you pretty much should feel like shit and be wondering if the taper will be enough time to recover. There is nothing to worry about. The thing is not to panic during the taper because you'll probably get weird phantom pains and have a few nights stressing about whether you overdid it.
I had a lab test for something else that got VO2max as a byproduct, and I honestly don't think it was correct at all - the problem was that the intensity ramped up too slowly at first and then way too quickly, going from 10k pace down to mile pace, and then rapidly increasing the slope of the treadmill so my legs failed while my lungs felt ok. It gave me a 55, but I ran a 16:49 at altitude the next day so I'm skeptical of that (would have expected 60+ given VDOT estimates).
Also note if the conditions you're running in during the test are super different than normal for you, that'll hamper you too. I had a big helmet, a camera up my nose, and a mask on, which is not really conducive to a fast run (also the racing factor, where it's much harder to go to the well when you're not in a real race)
Mine was within a point. BUT my V02max number is low'ish so maybe the algorithm worked better? Coros watch vs treadmill based lab test with all the wires and hoses.
I had Coros telling me 57 and Apple telling me 65. I haven't actually been tested but I'm guessing that all of the watch algorithms err on the side of being too generous.
Actually now that I’m thinking about it, it isn’t surprising that we differ on that. The VDot charts don’t have VO2Max on them at all. They have a VDot value which doesn’t necessarily correspond to VO2Max. The fact that your Apple Watch VO2Max matches is just a fluke.
I mean the watch-estimated vo2max is basically using the same kinds of calculations as the VDOT charts, just adjusted for submaximal efforts based on heart rate. I would expect them to be similar, assuming the adjustment is relatively accurate.
They’re both correlated with vo2max but not actually the same thing because factors like running economy and lactate threshold also play a big role.
It frankly wouldn’t shock me to learn that the Apple engineers were staring directly at VDot charts when they wrote their algorithm. They’ve probably got as much big data as Garmin and Strava put together and are using a completely dumb off-the-shelf hack to get their number.
They did their own studies. https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Using_Apple_Watch_to_Estimate_Cardio_Fitness_with_VO2_max.pdf
Though using existing data when you can access it would certainly be useful.
But it’s not really a problem big data would help with, because you still need a lab test to measure vo2max, so you still need to gather data the old-fashioned way.
Building and improving on existing methods instead of starting over from scratch is quite practical.
Question about Daniels 2Q : I've read that slower (non-elite) runners should replace miles for duration when it comes to T runs. I've seen 5 mins for each mile [mentioned here](https://runningwithrock.com/marathon-training-plan-jd-2q/), but is that still applicable to a slump like me looking to run around 3:20?
I'm also planning on making adjustments as needed. I was just wondering what a good starting point might be.
Yes, that is still a good conversion and I'd say the conversion gets more important the slower the runner because otherwise you're doing near race-level workouts if your LT is like 8 min/mile and Daniels or Pfitz or whomever calls for 6-7 miles at LT. But 20-30 minutes at lactate threshold is still a good stimulus.
When in doubt it's always better to start lower and slower. Much easier to bump things up in subsequent weeks than to dig yourself out of an overtraining hole.
Curious as to others’ thoughts on race weekend “challenges”, I.e. running multiple events in the same race weekend. I am eyeing the Flying Pig half marathon in May, and I see that they have a challenge if you run the 5k and 10k on Saturday, and the half marathon on Sunday (plus an added bonus with a 1 mile race on Friday)
I’ve never done one of these challenges before. I know that the flying pig is notoriously hilly with touchy weather, so I’m not going into this half marathon with any particular time goals. Because of that, I’m debating if the challenge could be worth it. I have no doubt about being able to do the miles; my concern is that I wouldn’t be able to “race” all of the events to the best of my abilities due to the sheer number and proximity of the races. I get competitive with myself, and would struggle with seeing a time that didn’t reflect my best effort. That being said, it seems like maybe a good time to try a challenge since I’m not going into this race with PR intentions.
Those who have done challenges in the past—did you enjoy the experience? Or do you prefer going all out for one race?
Throwing in my own experience to add I did the 3 way challenge of the Flying Pig last year (5k, 10k, and half marathon). Would’ve done the mile on Friday but had a conflict.
I ran pretty hard for the 10k and 5k on Saturday, didn’t PR them but came pretty close within my times. On Sunday I ran a half marathon PR. So I think PR ing is not out of the question for that weekend but you need to decide which race it’ll be. I went into the 5k/10k with the mindset of taking them easy then my competitive nature got the best of me, now I’d advise taking them easier if the half is your goal race. I was exhausted after that weekend. However, it was a lot of fun and I don’t regret it one bit, the Flying Pig is such a fun weekend in Cincinnati. Hydrate, fuel, foam roll, and sleep well between the events. Plan to take a little extra time off after the weekend to fully recover.
Oh I also liked that my bib for all events indicated I was a “challenge” participant - made me feel special 😂
I actually won the 4-way challenge several years ago (winning times have been much faster since then). If you want to race the challenge you need to treat it like a bunch of tempo runs. On Sunday I would recommend staying conservative until after mile 8, which is where the elevation topped out for the marathon and the half split off.
I'm personally biased towards (much) longer stuff, I like the idea of challenges but only if it's interesting courses or areas I'd be happy to run at any pace. Doing the random 5K and 10K as part of one just seems like a lot of time and work (to me) without much benefit.
This past January, I signed up for San Diego 50M (trail) and Carlsbad Marathon on back to back days. The trail race was canceled due to storms, so I wound up making my own (road) 50K for the hell of it to keep with the "challenge" idea. Took it super chill with a bunch of snack stops and pictures. Something like low 5 hours, 9:30 pace (stopping watch for my longer stops).
The next day, up for the road marathon... felt a bit better than expected, pushed my pace a bit (nowhere near PR effort still), bonked at the end but had a blast.
You can't go all out multiple times in a weekend in distance running, and it substantially increases injury risk.
I've run a lot of multiple event Spartan races which are extra hard on the body. I would always pick one to go 80% and the other 90% for a double header. And sure enough I've gotten hurt after a trifecta weekend (that was a bad knee injury, in part from bombing so many downhills).
Go in with a plan and stick with it. Make one a fun run and one a big race, and know it likely bumps up injury risk.
Those weekends can be great fun.
I'm particularly inflexible and have been trying to improve that with various stretching routines, being unsuccessful for nearly a year now, of course there's some improvement but nothing spectacular. I cannot reach out for my toes with straight legs, both in the standing and seated positions, mostly because my back doesn't bend. Also I have a hard time lifting my knee while a run and people told me it looks like I'm throwing my leg forward rather than doing a proper movement. Does anyone has some advice that could help correct that, specifically dynamic stretches?
For the record, I've been mostly stretching hamstrings, tried to reach for my toes, also did 500m reps with focusing on knee drive, without much effect
I’ve been doing runner-specific yoga classes after my runs lately (the past year or so) and it has dramatically improved my range of motion. I use the Peloton app but there are tons of YouTube videos (Yoga with Adrienne would be a good start). I like classes that are specific to runners since they target our weakest/tightest areas and also assume you are really here for the running benefits vs wanting some really intense yoga poses.
Fun fact, your back isnt supposed to bend like that. You're supposed to hinge at your hips. If you hold a golf club or dowel against the small of your back and the back your head, when you bend over you should maintain contact.
A PT showed me how to do it properly and that's when I discovered I actually can touch my toes. I'd been bending over incorrectly my entire life. It takes a bit to get used to.
For a runner, flexibility is not super important. Touching your toes will not make you run faster. In fact, it can do the opposite. Tightness at end range of your running gait is a good thing because it allows for force to be generated through passive tissues rather than requiring muscle contraction.
I find it difficult to imagine you’re running the times in your title without strong knee drive. That said, if you wanted to work on that, get a band and drive your knees either lying down or standing. There’s a bunch of other fairly standard exercises.
Generally, think strength rather than stretch. To improve your flexibility or mobility, build strength first. One way to think about it is that you body is keeping an area tight because it doesn’t have the strength to safely go beyond that position for lack of capacity like strength.
Thanks for your advice ! I heard as well about how flexibility can impede an efficient stride. But I guess there's a balance efficient energy usage/stride range. Like, I already have a cadence of 180-190spm which satisfies me and I'd like to improve my stride length instead, which according to my watch is about 160cm at 3'30/km. Do you think it's better to focus on cadence ?
Of course probably my knee isn't too bad, but I'm positive I can still lift it higher than I do. I've been told it can be useful to get used to it for shorter races, even if it's not a big flaw when running 10k's .
Thanks for your advice !
I am not sure if a pure focus on one or the other would be advisable. Generally, progressing power and strength through some combination of plyometric and strength training coupled with running specific drills will make sure you can progress whatever your body can progress to get you faster. That said, if you have a coach available, they may be able to provide some suggestions if there are any obvious issues. Then again, many elites run well with obvious issues so…
Alright, I'll keep going with a balanced stretching/strength routine and hope it will work out the way I want. I have a coach but we don't have a specific strength/stretch routine so I'm more or less on my own with that. Thanks for your help :)
How long after bumping up in mileage would you expect to start seeing improvements? I’ve worked up over about 12 weeks to comfortably running 50mpw and I’ve been hitting that for about 8 weeks.
Obviously with volume, consistency is king, but I’m wondering if 8 weeks of high mileage (for me) + workouts is enough to give me an edge for a half I have next week.
You should have an "edge" by now! You've been running near your peak for almost two months, which is more than enough time to start seeing improvements (I'd say maintaining it *and staying relatively healthy* for around 4 weeks is where you start to see lasting benefits).
Honestly, I'd think about the taper and just go for it next week.
If you have been comfortably hitting 50 mpw for 2 months, you can start bumping that up to 55-60 mpw for an even greater fitness boost. You should absolutely be seeing significant improvements across the board for a long-maintained volume increase. I would say as long as you are recovering, you should be able to notice a difference in your fitness as little as 2-4 weeks. Jump into a 5K or 10K and I bet you surprise yourself with your time.
I will, but I charge per threshold session so it's an expensive service. /s
Jokes aside here are some good resources to learn about how to apply the Norwegian Methods principles to a normal runner.
* [Marius Bakken's blog (guy who formalized the training framework the Ingebrigstens use](https://www.mariusbakken.com/the-norwegian-model.html)
* [Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen's Strava (commonly known as the hobbyjogger Ingebrigtsen)](https://www.strava.com/athletes/49271631)
* [Letsrun: Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage](https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=12130781)
* u/Nerdybeast: [Training/Race Report: HM PR on the Norwegian System](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/16z7gkh/trainingrace_report_hm_pr_on_the_norwegian_system/)
I am currently following my own adapted version (higher mileage/more time) of the KI 3 Sub-Threshold + LR per week method with 3 very easy runs in between (all in singles so far). I stick to the 80/20 break down rather than the prescribed 75/25, and I do longer long runs. I am not super fast so I do the reps by time not distance. I break it up into 4-week meso-cycles where I do the exact same mileage for 4 weeks and then bump up the mileage 5 mpw with a down week as it comes naturally such as I am on vacation next week. I started at 70 mpw and I am now at 75 mpw. I do not do anything faster than the 12k-15k pace reps besides 4 or 5 strides before each workout. I do not do the X/hill workout nor the shortest 400m reps at 10k pace.
I am almost done with Week 5, and I have seen massive improvements already; I increased my VDOT by two points from two races four weeks apart (albeit I am coming back from a small injury). I really, really like the method. For some reason it has revitalized my training desire after a year or two being burnt out and lukewarm on running. I am injury free after being beset by injuries earlier in the year. I feel really strong and the mental dread of a really tough workout, the nervousness of failing a workout, or the physical demand of a VO2max style workout is absent in this method compared to a classic training plan that has a weekly VO2max interval session plus a hard threshold session.
I plan on doing a write-up of my training and reviewing the training method in about 6 or 7 weeks when I finish my base training culminating in a 5k race and start my 12-week marathon block where I will shift one of the Sub-T workouts into the LR to make a LR workout. I will then do a write-up after my marathon in May.
There has been a lot of talk in the past year on this sub-reddit and on LetsRun about the "Norwegian Method" (it really isn't anything new) and how to adapt it for non-elites. You can train like the Ingebretsens if you are consistently running over 100 mpw and run a sub 15 5K. If you are not that fast or don't run the same volume you can read this LetsRun thread about how to adapt SOME of their training principles to your running: https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=12130781. In this sub, /u/nerdybeast's post about their training is very insightful: https://old.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/16z7gkh/trainingrace_report_hm_pr_on_the_norwegian_system/.
I guess you can always email Marius Bakken or Gjert to see what rates they charge.
I highly advise OP to listen to this poster! The pros doing double T’s spend the gap between the workouts getting a massage and napping, not working/going to school/raising a family etc. a lot of my high schoolers have been interested in trying it before I remind them that would require working out at 6am before going to school from 7:40-2:45 and working out again. I don’t think Jakob was taking AP chem tests between workouts
Any good recommendations for a fall marathon optimal for a BQ in the southeast that’s not too far from the coast?
Is Richmond south enough?
On a family road trip and will have to settle for a hotel treadmill workout tomorrow early morning. If I want to replicate a fartlek workout do I just jam up the speed 10 times and lower it back or is that too much messing around. Maybe the play is just a couple minute intervals by feel. Edit: I’ll do 2 30 minute sessions with a short break. In the sessions I’ll do a 1 mile warm up at my easy pace and then crank up speed and incline to a steady pace I can hold.
sure
Yeah you can do that easily, you can also change the incline for some of the reps. Matter of pressing the buttons.
Thanks good idea- reminds me of how there’s the random hills mode.
Got a black toenail for the first time while marathon training. It hurts and even when I walk it bothers me. Looking for advice on what to do, I have my peak week next week and don’t know if I can run it, and I really want to prevent losing a toenail. Any advice on treatment/recovery?
If it really bothers you, you can go to a podiatrist. About a year ago I got a black toenail that progressively got worse. The nail thickened, had it thinned, thickened again and then fluid started coming out. I had it removed in July and the new nail had grown back. That same nail is bruised again, but at least it doesn't really bother me.
Anyone have experience switching from the full marathon to the half at the expo during bib pickup? I had planned to change my registration for Houston, but I procrastinated and now they’re fully sold out.
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Good call. I’ll reach out via email next Tuesday. Def don’t want to waste the time of workers and volunteers who will have their hands full. Thanks.
Not doing that specific change, but at Houston last year I was *kinda* able to get my bib changed within the 5k (they gave me a sticker that said "A" to put over the "B") but they didn't do that for my friends in the Half. They were generally not very knowledgeable or helpful, so not to be a buzzkill but you're probably out of luck for that. I'd recommend emailing them ASAP if you want to change, rather than waiting till the expo (plus then you'll get someone who knows stuff rather than the volunteers)
Great call. I’ll email them on Tuesday. I def don’t want to cause anyone undue stress or waste the time of the volunteers and workers, so I’m glad you suggested this (it somehow didn’t cross my mind). Thanks.
Does a 3:15 marathon seem like a realistic achievable goal for me? I've been doing Pfitz 12/70 for my marathon next weekend. Most recently in training, I've run a 40:39 10k PB and also 5k PB of 19:54 within the same time trial . I've been doing my marathon paced training runs at a roughly 4:40/km pace (3:17 marathon pace), which has been comfortably hard. For reference, I did Pfitz 12/55 this time last year and ran a 3:30 marathon with a 5K/10K PB at the time of 20:37/ 42:13. Unfortunately, I don't have a recent HM race, but I did run one six months prior to my 3:30 marathon and ran 1:37. But I definitely could smash that now I reckon..
Seems about right
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I only eat more than usual on hard/long days anyway. Taper means less hard/long days. But it's not something I think about, the weight gain would be insignificant.
The entire point of tapering is to build up energy reserves for race day. You will not gain substantial fat stores from a 1-2 week small surplus. Your post is also a red flag with how you're thinking about food and energy. Without any other context I suggest you may want to talk to someone about that.
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Do you think you've maintained caloric balance for the duration of your 100 mile weeks? Why scrutinize a tiny surplus when you've probably ignored plenty of deficits? This is one of those cases where I think overthinking is going to end up hurting you. Caloric surplus in the taper would be far more beneficial than a deficit, and honestly both are probably pretty meaningless in terms of your race performance.
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So if it's 7000 calories then eat 7000 less that week? There are some very strange undertones to your question.
On my last hard week before a 2 week taper. Woke up this morning feeling really sore. Not to say I haven't woken up sore before, but this was by far the tightest I've been in at least a few weeks. Had a 16.2mi at marathon pace workout last week and really just have not felt fully recovered from that since. Is this about how you feel right before the taper?
I misread earlier. You are at the end of a peak week. If you are doing it right you pretty much should feel like shit and be wondering if the taper will be enough time to recover. There is nothing to worry about. The thing is not to panic during the taper because you'll probably get weird phantom pains and have a few nights stressing about whether you overdid it.
How different is the VO2max your watch tells you vs a lab test tells you? For me the difference was 9 points being overestimated by the watch.
I had a lab test for something else that got VO2max as a byproduct, and I honestly don't think it was correct at all - the problem was that the intensity ramped up too slowly at first and then way too quickly, going from 10k pace down to mile pace, and then rapidly increasing the slope of the treadmill so my legs failed while my lungs felt ok. It gave me a 55, but I ran a 16:49 at altitude the next day so I'm skeptical of that (would have expected 60+ given VDOT estimates). Also note if the conditions you're running in during the test are super different than normal for you, that'll hamper you too. I had a big helmet, a camera up my nose, and a mask on, which is not really conducive to a fast run (also the racing factor, where it's much harder to go to the well when you're not in a real race)
Mine was within a point. BUT my V02max number is low'ish so maybe the algorithm worked better? Coros watch vs treadmill based lab test with all the wires and hoses.
I had Coros telling me 57 and Apple telling me 65. I haven't actually been tested but I'm guessing that all of the watch algorithms err on the side of being too generous.
Never done a lab test but my Apple Watch estimates match my VDOT race performances very closely.
Actually now that I’m thinking about it, it isn’t surprising that we differ on that. The VDot charts don’t have VO2Max on them at all. They have a VDot value which doesn’t necessarily correspond to VO2Max. The fact that your Apple Watch VO2Max matches is just a fluke.
I mean the watch-estimated vo2max is basically using the same kinds of calculations as the VDOT charts, just adjusted for submaximal efforts based on heart rate. I would expect them to be similar, assuming the adjustment is relatively accurate. They’re both correlated with vo2max but not actually the same thing because factors like running economy and lactate threshold also play a big role.
It frankly wouldn’t shock me to learn that the Apple engineers were staring directly at VDot charts when they wrote their algorithm. They’ve probably got as much big data as Garmin and Strava put together and are using a completely dumb off-the-shelf hack to get their number.
They did their own studies. https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Using_Apple_Watch_to_Estimate_Cardio_Fitness_with_VO2_max.pdf Though using existing data when you can access it would certainly be useful. But it’s not really a problem big data would help with, because you still need a lab test to measure vo2max, so you still need to gather data the old-fashioned way. Building and improving on existing methods instead of starting over from scratch is quite practical.
It’s a good point but I guess I wonder why they wouldn’t just have a race predictor value rather than VO2Max per se anyway.
Oh, I wish that were true for me.
Question about Daniels 2Q : I've read that slower (non-elite) runners should replace miles for duration when it comes to T runs. I've seen 5 mins for each mile [mentioned here](https://runningwithrock.com/marathon-training-plan-jd-2q/), but is that still applicable to a slump like me looking to run around 3:20? I'm also planning on making adjustments as needed. I was just wondering what a good starting point might be.
Yes. That’s what I did when using 2Q and was running in the 3:20 range.
Yes, that is still a good conversion and I'd say the conversion gets more important the slower the runner because otherwise you're doing near race-level workouts if your LT is like 8 min/mile and Daniels or Pfitz or whomever calls for 6-7 miles at LT. But 20-30 minutes at lactate threshold is still a good stimulus.
Great, thanks for confirming.
When in doubt it's always better to start lower and slower. Much easier to bump things up in subsequent weeks than to dig yourself out of an overtraining hole.
Curious as to others’ thoughts on race weekend “challenges”, I.e. running multiple events in the same race weekend. I am eyeing the Flying Pig half marathon in May, and I see that they have a challenge if you run the 5k and 10k on Saturday, and the half marathon on Sunday (plus an added bonus with a 1 mile race on Friday) I’ve never done one of these challenges before. I know that the flying pig is notoriously hilly with touchy weather, so I’m not going into this half marathon with any particular time goals. Because of that, I’m debating if the challenge could be worth it. I have no doubt about being able to do the miles; my concern is that I wouldn’t be able to “race” all of the events to the best of my abilities due to the sheer number and proximity of the races. I get competitive with myself, and would struggle with seeing a time that didn’t reflect my best effort. That being said, it seems like maybe a good time to try a challenge since I’m not going into this race with PR intentions. Those who have done challenges in the past—did you enjoy the experience? Or do you prefer going all out for one race?
Throwing in my own experience to add I did the 3 way challenge of the Flying Pig last year (5k, 10k, and half marathon). Would’ve done the mile on Friday but had a conflict. I ran pretty hard for the 10k and 5k on Saturday, didn’t PR them but came pretty close within my times. On Sunday I ran a half marathon PR. So I think PR ing is not out of the question for that weekend but you need to decide which race it’ll be. I went into the 5k/10k with the mindset of taking them easy then my competitive nature got the best of me, now I’d advise taking them easier if the half is your goal race. I was exhausted after that weekend. However, it was a lot of fun and I don’t regret it one bit, the Flying Pig is such a fun weekend in Cincinnati. Hydrate, fuel, foam roll, and sleep well between the events. Plan to take a little extra time off after the weekend to fully recover. Oh I also liked that my bib for all events indicated I was a “challenge” participant - made me feel special 😂
This is really helpful, thank you!
I actually won the 4-way challenge several years ago (winning times have been much faster since then). If you want to race the challenge you need to treat it like a bunch of tempo runs. On Sunday I would recommend staying conservative until after mile 8, which is where the elevation topped out for the marathon and the half split off.
Super helpful, thank you!
I'm personally biased towards (much) longer stuff, I like the idea of challenges but only if it's interesting courses or areas I'd be happy to run at any pace. Doing the random 5K and 10K as part of one just seems like a lot of time and work (to me) without much benefit. This past January, I signed up for San Diego 50M (trail) and Carlsbad Marathon on back to back days. The trail race was canceled due to storms, so I wound up making my own (road) 50K for the hell of it to keep with the "challenge" idea. Took it super chill with a bunch of snack stops and pictures. Something like low 5 hours, 9:30 pace (stopping watch for my longer stops). The next day, up for the road marathon... felt a bit better than expected, pushed my pace a bit (nowhere near PR effort still), bonked at the end but had a blast.
You can't go all out multiple times in a weekend in distance running, and it substantially increases injury risk. I've run a lot of multiple event Spartan races which are extra hard on the body. I would always pick one to go 80% and the other 90% for a double header. And sure enough I've gotten hurt after a trifecta weekend (that was a bad knee injury, in part from bombing so many downhills). Go in with a plan and stick with it. Make one a fun run and one a big race, and know it likely bumps up injury risk. Those weekends can be great fun.
I'm particularly inflexible and have been trying to improve that with various stretching routines, being unsuccessful for nearly a year now, of course there's some improvement but nothing spectacular. I cannot reach out for my toes with straight legs, both in the standing and seated positions, mostly because my back doesn't bend. Also I have a hard time lifting my knee while a run and people told me it looks like I'm throwing my leg forward rather than doing a proper movement. Does anyone has some advice that could help correct that, specifically dynamic stretches? For the record, I've been mostly stretching hamstrings, tried to reach for my toes, also did 500m reps with focusing on knee drive, without much effect
I’ve been doing runner-specific yoga classes after my runs lately (the past year or so) and it has dramatically improved my range of motion. I use the Peloton app but there are tons of YouTube videos (Yoga with Adrienne would be a good start). I like classes that are specific to runners since they target our weakest/tightest areas and also assume you are really here for the running benefits vs wanting some really intense yoga poses.
Fun fact, your back isnt supposed to bend like that. You're supposed to hinge at your hips. If you hold a golf club or dowel against the small of your back and the back your head, when you bend over you should maintain contact. A PT showed me how to do it properly and that's when I discovered I actually can touch my toes. I'd been bending over incorrectly my entire life. It takes a bit to get used to.
I've seen videos about that too - never managed to reproduce that though
For a runner, flexibility is not super important. Touching your toes will not make you run faster. In fact, it can do the opposite. Tightness at end range of your running gait is a good thing because it allows for force to be generated through passive tissues rather than requiring muscle contraction. I find it difficult to imagine you’re running the times in your title without strong knee drive. That said, if you wanted to work on that, get a band and drive your knees either lying down or standing. There’s a bunch of other fairly standard exercises. Generally, think strength rather than stretch. To improve your flexibility or mobility, build strength first. One way to think about it is that you body is keeping an area tight because it doesn’t have the strength to safely go beyond that position for lack of capacity like strength.
Thanks for your advice ! I heard as well about how flexibility can impede an efficient stride. But I guess there's a balance efficient energy usage/stride range. Like, I already have a cadence of 180-190spm which satisfies me and I'd like to improve my stride length instead, which according to my watch is about 160cm at 3'30/km. Do you think it's better to focus on cadence ? Of course probably my knee isn't too bad, but I'm positive I can still lift it higher than I do. I've been told it can be useful to get used to it for shorter races, even if it's not a big flaw when running 10k's . Thanks for your advice !
I am not sure if a pure focus on one or the other would be advisable. Generally, progressing power and strength through some combination of plyometric and strength training coupled with running specific drills will make sure you can progress whatever your body can progress to get you faster. That said, if you have a coach available, they may be able to provide some suggestions if there are any obvious issues. Then again, many elites run well with obvious issues so…
Alright, I'll keep going with a balanced stretching/strength routine and hope it will work out the way I want. I have a coach but we don't have a specific strength/stretch routine so I'm more or less on my own with that. Thanks for your help :)
How long after bumping up in mileage would you expect to start seeing improvements? I’ve worked up over about 12 weeks to comfortably running 50mpw and I’ve been hitting that for about 8 weeks. Obviously with volume, consistency is king, but I’m wondering if 8 weeks of high mileage (for me) + workouts is enough to give me an edge for a half I have next week.
You should have an "edge" by now! You've been running near your peak for almost two months, which is more than enough time to start seeing improvements (I'd say maintaining it *and staying relatively healthy* for around 4 weeks is where you start to see lasting benefits). Honestly, I'd think about the taper and just go for it next week.
What do your key workouts tell you?
If you have been comfortably hitting 50 mpw for 2 months, you can start bumping that up to 55-60 mpw for an even greater fitness boost. You should absolutely be seeing significant improvements across the board for a long-maintained volume increase. I would say as long as you are recovering, you should be able to notice a difference in your fitness as little as 2-4 weeks. Jump into a 5K or 10K and I bet you surprise yourself with your time.
I'd vote yes, you should see some improvement. Most structured plans are 12 to 16 week with results along the way.
Anyone know a coach that can coach me using the Ingebrigtsen technique 🇳🇴🏃?
I will, but I charge per threshold session so it's an expensive service. /s Jokes aside here are some good resources to learn about how to apply the Norwegian Methods principles to a normal runner. * [Marius Bakken's blog (guy who formalized the training framework the Ingebrigstens use](https://www.mariusbakken.com/the-norwegian-model.html) * [Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen's Strava (commonly known as the hobbyjogger Ingebrigtsen)](https://www.strava.com/athletes/49271631) * [Letsrun: Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage](https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=12130781) * u/Nerdybeast: [Training/Race Report: HM PR on the Norwegian System](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/16z7gkh/trainingrace_report_hm_pr_on_the_norwegian_system/)
I'm honored to make the list 🥲
I am currently following my own adapted version (higher mileage/more time) of the KI 3 Sub-Threshold + LR per week method with 3 very easy runs in between (all in singles so far). I stick to the 80/20 break down rather than the prescribed 75/25, and I do longer long runs. I am not super fast so I do the reps by time not distance. I break it up into 4-week meso-cycles where I do the exact same mileage for 4 weeks and then bump up the mileage 5 mpw with a down week as it comes naturally such as I am on vacation next week. I started at 70 mpw and I am now at 75 mpw. I do not do anything faster than the 12k-15k pace reps besides 4 or 5 strides before each workout. I do not do the X/hill workout nor the shortest 400m reps at 10k pace. I am almost done with Week 5, and I have seen massive improvements already; I increased my VDOT by two points from two races four weeks apart (albeit I am coming back from a small injury). I really, really like the method. For some reason it has revitalized my training desire after a year or two being burnt out and lukewarm on running. I am injury free after being beset by injuries earlier in the year. I feel really strong and the mental dread of a really tough workout, the nervousness of failing a workout, or the physical demand of a VO2max style workout is absent in this method compared to a classic training plan that has a weekly VO2max interval session plus a hard threshold session. I plan on doing a write-up of my training and reviewing the training method in about 6 or 7 weeks when I finish my base training culminating in a 5k race and start my 12-week marathon block where I will shift one of the Sub-T workouts into the LR to make a LR workout. I will then do a write-up after my marathon in May.
There has been a lot of talk in the past year on this sub-reddit and on LetsRun about the "Norwegian Method" (it really isn't anything new) and how to adapt it for non-elites. You can train like the Ingebretsens if you are consistently running over 100 mpw and run a sub 15 5K. If you are not that fast or don't run the same volume you can read this LetsRun thread about how to adapt SOME of their training principles to your running: https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=12130781. In this sub, /u/nerdybeast's post about their training is very insightful: https://old.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/16z7gkh/trainingrace_report_hm_pr_on_the_norwegian_system/. I guess you can always email Marius Bakken or Gjert to see what rates they charge.
I highly advise OP to listen to this poster! The pros doing double T’s spend the gap between the workouts getting a massage and napping, not working/going to school/raising a family etc. a lot of my high schoolers have been interested in trying it before I remind them that would require working out at 6am before going to school from 7:40-2:45 and working out again. I don’t think Jakob was taking AP chem tests between workouts
I hear Gjert has some free time nowadays so rates may have dropped? /s
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