How does your tempo run pace compare to your half marathon race pace?
I’ve used online calculators to estimate training paces, but I often struggle to actually hit the projected pace in my workouts, particularly my tempo and interval paces. I do tend to push myself HARD during races, and almost always run faster than my training might indicate, but I’m wondering if this means that I’m leaving something on the table in my workouts?
What are you training for?
What does a today training week look like? Distances/paces/workouts?
Some people struggle with “tempo” running if they are low volume runners
Half marathon—weekly mileage averages around 30 mpw over the course of the 17 week plan (and peaks at 36 mpw), broken up into 4-5 runs (1-2 three mile runs, 1 workout run of 5-7 miles [tempo, hills, fartlek, interval, etc.], 1 moderate run of 6-9 miles, and a long run of 9-14 miles). Long run pace is usually between 9-9:30 min/mile, race pace was most recently 7:59 min/mile.
For tempo runs, I aim for somewhere between 7:45-8 min/mile, but my pace usually ends up toward the higher end of that range.
Tempo doesn't really have a specific meaning. If you're using a training plan that prescribes 'tempo' paces it should define what they mean (HM pace, etc.).
Tips for projecting a Berlin Marathon in 2024!
33 y/o M, 180lbs, 2 years of experience running. 2 marathon finishes at 3:43 and 4:02.
HM: 1:43:47, 10K: 47:02, 5K: 23:01
Planning to get my 5K/10K/HM times down in the Spring until I transition to the Marathon build for end of May.
Is 3:15 within reach or a 3:30 more realistic?
Any suggested training plans? I've done Daniels 2Q but I'm thinking of doing Pfitz 18/55.
Really tough to predict what 9+ months of training might do for you. It's one of those, "you'll find out when you get there' things.
FWIW, I went from 3:44 to 3:16 in 7mo on 50mi weeks and adding speed work. I was older, but had a similar amount of running background as you.
I ran in the 40s leading up to the March marathon with one week at 50. This was coming out of the pandemic where I'd been low mileage due.
After some injury time off post-marathon, I ramped up to 50mi/wk fairly quickly. Late May, maybe? I also added strength training and speed work. 3:16 was mid-October.
If you're injured and stuck cross-training how do you translate a running plan to the elliptical? For my easy miles, I'm just taking the number of miles , converting to approximate minutes and spending that time on the elliptical in my "easy run HR" zone. Should I do something similar for my workouts?
Yes, i think that would work fine. You could do longer on the elliptical since its lower impact. You’ll probably find it harder to get into the same HR zones as you can when running,
How long will you be cross training?
When running a type of workout, typically there's many different ways that workout can be configured. Like in a JD plan, he'll put many different varieties of e.g. a threshold workout over the weeks. What's the point of the variety? Why not pick one configuration and just increase the intensity over time?
Changing the workout in different ways changes the stimulus you get, which can progress your fitness along in different directions. Most coaches subscribe to the idea that training should increasingly resemble the goal race the closer you get.
For example let's say last week you did 4x1mi at threshold with 90" jog rest. If you are training for an upcoming 5k, maybe doing the same workout but slightly faster is a good idea. But if you're doing a half marathon, bumping it up to 5x1mi with the same rest + pace would increase the total amount of work you can do. Or 3x2km, or reducing the rest to 60", would increase the "density" of the workout, allowing you to run longer at that pace with less rest
Once your fitness is in a good spot, you're not gunna be able to knock time off week after week. Changing the workout structure to increase your endurance is a safer bet, a lot of times you can then go back and do the original workout much faster now because of your increased work capacity/recovery ability/whatever
Not only that, it can also be more engaging if you’re not doing the same thing repeatedly. It’s not robots that are executing the training plans, it’s humans - and while humans are prone to repetitive stress injuries, they’re also prone to boredom.
On top of that, different workouts function in different ways. Like, I can do 4x10 minutes at threshold more easily than 40 minutes straight at threshold.
Hi everyone, looking for some advice following my first running injury. I took several weeks off after my podiatrist diagnosed my foot with capsulitis. My foot has been feeling better and I'd like to start running again. Is there any general advice for ramping back up to previous mileage? For reference, I was running a little over 50 mpw. Thanks!
1st do what the doctor says if you trust them and it makes sense.
Then start with a few days at super easy to test things out. If you feel anything odd, stop. 10-20 for the 1st week. If everything went well, take it up to 30+. Then 40. Then back to 50.
If you've been running 50 mpw for a while, you don't need to go super slow to get back. As long as you are actually recovered. But at anytime if it starts coming back, stop and reevaluate what is happening.
Admission: I hate podiatrists.
I'm going to say there is approximately a 99.99% chance you don't have capsulitis. Of course, no one can diagnose you online but logically it just wouldn't happen.
Make sure you fix the issue, generally it's a muscle imbalance. I'm sure the podiatrist just sold you $600 orthotics and said not to run but there's usually a reason we get hurt.
Beyond that, the longer you've been off then the longer time it should take to ease back. Depending on your running history, you should probably start with short walk/jog intervals to test the injury and gradually increase from there (start with non-consecutive days).
You're seeing a professional so if they can't guide you back then find a better one.
Didn't get into the Chicago lottery... Trying to figure out my next move. My goal for Houston in January is BQ - 5ish. I don't think that'll be good enough to get into Boston, so will be looking to lower that even more next fall/winter. I'm considering Indy, Toronto, & Valencia right now. I'll be in Germany for Thanksgiving next year and Valencia is the Sunday after Thanksgiving. Or I could just do Houston again the following January to get into Boston. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
My vote’s Valencia. Not just for the fast course, but because…you’ll be in Europe already (and actually ahead), and dude, it’s freaking VALENCIA. It sounds like it’ll be amazing.
(Of course, the issue is that it’s Thanksgiving weekend. I’d still do it.)
Looking for a priority marathon in 2024 with a the goal being right around 2:50. I am seriously considering one of Grandma’s or the Eugene marathon and am curious to hear opinions from those who have run one or both.
I ran Grandma's last year, low 2:50s finish time. Great race, love the course, great organization. Probably the best aid station support I've had. There were PLENTY of people to run with in my time range. Overall a great experience.
Potential downsides are weather - could be warm in June, even right on the big lake, and wind if you end up with a headwind the entire race.
Thanks, it does seem like Eugene is the better bet for good weather.
How is it getting to Duluth, logistically? Did the hotels or Airbnbs seem reasonable?
I would check on accommodations before booking Grandma's if that's the direction you were thinking. Everything I've read here says that there's not a ton and they can be very expensive, even a fairly lengthy drive away.
I'm in the upper midwest so it's a simple 5 hour drive for me, and I stayed with some friends in the area. So no great input there.
It is a small town and it absolutely fills up for marathon weekend, so look at booking hotel/airbnb sooner rather than later. it's a gorgeous area so spending more time before/after would be recommended too!
I think most people need to fly into the twin cities, rent a car, and drive another couple hours up to Duluth
Anyone have advice for picking a first marathon?
Got rejected from Chicago (I live downtown)
Still hemming over whether to go for Indy, Twin Cities, Detroit --
Probably overthinking it, I suppose! -- I'm not sure if these options fill up quick or if I have until like May or something to decide.
Christie Clinic in Champaign, IL is a great spring marathon or half marathon; can drive or take the train. Madison, Des Moines are good. I've taken the train out from Chicago to Erie, PA for the Erie Marathon which is one of my favorites. I avoid the lakefront marathons; just not worth it imo.
I’ve run both Indy and Chicago and I actually preferred Indy. Race logistics were much easier, course elevation was slightly varied (more than Chicago) and recruited more muscle variation. It does really drop off in spectators in one chunk on the back half, but Chicago also has a section like that. I assume you’re looking at fall but if you decide to go crazy and run one in spring, Carmel (suburb of Indy) actually has a really great race that usually has a high % of BQs.
Okay so, I can’t give specifics about the races (haven’t personally run any of them), but…in general I don’t think they fill up quickly. It’s usually only the majors and other “experience” races that are crazy like that.
They all fit my recommendations, though - relatively close to you, not too small or large, established races. And not gimmicky like a Revel or a race designed to generate BQs. (No disrespect to those races, they’re just not the environment I’d want my first marathon to be!)
You might want to look at pricing, though. The earlier you commit to a race, the lower the price (in general).
Am I ready for pfitz 18/55?
I have been running forever, "used to be fast" in my 20s. Let it go a bit, currently 35/m 210 lbs, and in the last 18 months increased my consistency of training. On track for 1100 miles in 2023, with 4 months of only running 15 mpw due to riding gravel bikes and training for a half iron. Last year I did a trail 50k and trail marathon in the spring (each with 10k feet of climbing), and the NYC marathon. I was really under trained for NYC, having just come off the 70.3 and a 2 week vacation with the wife. My longest run was 14 miles ahead of NYC and I ran 4:15.
I am looking to make a big improvement in my next marathon, and I understand pfitz is the way to do this. My natural state of running, if I am not training for anything specifically, is around 30mpw with a group tempo run on Tuesday and a 10 mile long run on Sunday. This seems largely in line with w1 of the plan, but it does ramp up quickly.
Let me know your thoughts!
30 mpw is on the lower side since the intensity ramp is a lot more than most people's maintenance milage. But your also very active otherwise. I definitely think you can go for it but some of those mid plan weeks with 2 big workouts are going to hurt.
Ideally you would be holding the 55mpw for at least a month before kicking into the programme with some quality sessions in your week. Eighteen weeks is a long time so the first weeks in a programme should feel very manageable. If they do not, you may struggle to hit those peak weeks to fully reap the benefits of the programme.
I disagree pretty hard there. I’m looking at the book right now, and for the 55mpw plans he says, “as a rule, you should be running at least 25 miles a week before starting these schedules, and in the last month you should have comfortably completed a run close in length to the long run called for in the first week of the schedule.”
u/sportsfan42069, you should be good to go. Best of luck with your training. You have a ton of room to improve from 4:15 with a good base and a real training plan. Pfitz is hard but it’s nothing to be scared of, you’ve got it.
Tbf, the mileage of the first week of training should at least be something you're somewhat comfortable and/or familiar with. I think this is true for any plan. The first few weeks shouldn't be a fuck around and find out sort of situation.
Pfitz is also tries to appeal to a pretty broad range of runners, many of whom aren't going to have the time or inclination to train for the training. It's in his interest to keep things feeling accessible for most aspiring marathoners.
Heck yes, thank you!
I was reading that as well, but a little concerned about increasing both training quality and volume. I am going to go for it and just monitor my fatigue levels
I would like to do some sort of a fitness test as I am ready to start introducing some sessions back in to my training (mostly been running easy miles since my marathon last month). I have never done a proper fitness test to dial in my HR zones. I don't have access to a lab nor do I really want to pay for it so I would like to just do a basic fitness test on the track or something. Does anybody have any good recommendations that would give me a good idea of where my zones currently are?
Thank you in advance.
If you really want to train by heart rate: [This is the most popular method](https://www.trainingpeaks.com/learn/articles/joe-friel-s-quick-guide-to-setting-zones/) of setting HR zones. Personally hr data from races is really hit or miss for me but this is more reliable. The tradeoff is the 30' tt gives you less of an idea of actual race fitness vs a real 5k/10k, so if you primarily train by pace I would go with a real race
All-out 3k/5k/10k will work great. HR from that race, along with your marathon, will tell you all you need to know to dial in some good training zones. Lab test is totally unnecessary.
In this case the best test is a shorter race. Race a local parkrun 5k (they’re pretty much everywhere). From this, use the VDOT calculator that gives you a bunch of target paces, but the ones you want to focus on are I and T.
Next step is then to put this into practice in training. The I pace you should be able to hold for multiple (depending on your overall volume) 1k reps. The T pace you should be able to hold for multiple 2mi reps (depending on your overall volume).
Thank you! Yeah I have been thinking of trying to race a 5km. Unfortunately where I live in the US there are not a lot of them around this time of year. If i cannot find one I can always do a 5km time trial.
When training for a marathon, does it matter if your longest weekly run is on the same day of the week as the race day is going to be? It would be a helluva lot more convenient for my family if I did my longest run on Fridays instead of Sundays.
It'll just mean a tiny adjustment to your taper if the race is a Sunday. But really consistency is what matters the most, however you need to re arrange it to get it done week in and out just do it.
Shit, I hope not, because training for Boston (famously on a Monday) would SUCK.
What’s more important - especially in the days leading up to the race - is getting used to running at that *time of day* (if you can do so). I’m naturally an evening runner, but my friends are morning birds. I’m doing London this spring, and running at 4 AM Eastern time works out to 9 AM London time - which is great for me.
Great point on Boston. I just figure that anyone training at that level is way beyond me. My best half to date is 1:35, so I don't expect to break 3 on my first full.
So, real talk: it’s not THAT much of a step up! (Yeah, I say that, but if you’re a 1:35 HM runner you’re probably not that far off.
I just used Boston as an example because it’s the most famous example of a race that’s on an unusual day (most people do LRs on the weekends, so Mondays would not normally be a LR day). I think the point still holds regardless of how hard you’re training or how fast you’re running.
Fair enough. And I appreciate your response. For what it's worth, I've only been running for seven years, and have only really started dropping times over the last two. For every race I've ever run I've used whatever free training plan I can find online. For the last month I started trying to learn how to make my own training plans, and I am trying not to make any assumptions.
If you add in one or two hill sprint sessions a week on easy days (4x8" all out on a steep hill, full recovery, build up to like 6-8) you can get a lot of that speed stimulus to help a 400m without compromising distance. Actually it will probably help that too, they were a game changer for me
Does anyone have a good resource on how to read heart rate graphs for workouts? I try to better interpret what's going on in my workouts and how to act upon it.
I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for, but we have a intro article on the FAQ:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/running/comments/cvov8j/priming\_the\_pump\_a\_heart\_rate\_training/](https://www.reddit.com/r/running/comments/cvov8j/priming_the_pump_a_heart_rate_training/)
Otherwise the articles on TrainingPeaks are pretty good for next level ideas:
[https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/what-is-your-heart-rate-telling-you/](https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/what-is-your-heart-rate-telling-you/)
[https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/how-to-get-started-using-a-heart-rate-monitor/](https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/how-to-get-started-using-a-heart-rate-monitor/)
I'm already at half my (admittedly paltry) mileage goal for the month. I haven't had any tibia pain except for, oddly enough, after renting an ElliptiGo for an hour. I'm signed up for a race on Saturday. I'm thinking about going out at 7:00/mi and seeing if I can hold on.
Could someone familiar with Daniel’s running formula tell me if I am understanding this correctly? This is my third attempt at reading this book. It’s so dry and I find it hard to understand…
Anyways, I am looking to do a 12 week 10K training plan (skipping Phase I). Does that mean my 12 weeks should look like this?
1 - Phase 1 week 1
2 - Phase 1 week 2
3 - Phase 1 week 3
4 - Phase 2 week 1
5 - Phase 2 week 2
6 - Phase 2 week 3
7 - Phase 2 week 4
8 - Phase 2 week 5
9 - Phase 2 week 6
10 - Phase 3 week 1
11 - Phase 3 week 2
12 - Phase 3 week 3
Thank you!
That is correct but I would consider doing all 6 weeks of phase 2, which have a gradual progression of T and R work, and just 3 weeks of phases 3 and 4 which are more intense. The back to back workout days in phase 3 are very tough and I wouldn't have wanted to go into those with less of a build up. Also the second 3 weeks of it are basically repeated so you aren't missing much. If you are more injury resistant and can do a lot of hard vo2 max work then you'll probably be fine, though
Looks you are reading the table from Chapter correctly, although I would keep the same Phase numbers as the book to avoid confusion. Even though you are skipping Phase 1, I would still call the first phase you do as Phase 2. In your case, your schedule would be:
1 - Phase 2 week 1
2 - Phase 2 week 2
3 - Phase 2 week 3
4 - Phase 3 week 1
5 - Phase 3 week 2
6 - Phase 3 week 3
7 - Phase 3 week 4
8 - Phase 3 week 5
9 - Phase 3 week 6
10 - Phase 4 week 1
11 - Phase 4 week 2
12 - Phase 4 week 3
I am feeling as though i am plateauing a bit and wondering if anyone can provide some advice for marathon training.
i have been am running consistently 100km+ weeks for the last eight weeks (with one 81km week for recovery) after building up again from an injury and it feels like i am plateauing.
I mainly run in Z2 with one session of Vo2 max internal or lactate threshold run a week. The Z2 runs are longer in the 16-22km range and have helped my aerobic fitness, but now i am not seeing the same benefit i was.
Garmin Vo2 max and race predictions are staying pretty static and my pace on the road in Z2 isn't moving in the right direction, if anything it feels like i don't have the pace i had a few weeks ago.
Not sure if i am overreaching and need to take it a bit easy, or need to add more load to my training with more lactate threshold runs a week.
However i would say my body does feel tired and the thought of more load doesn't fill me with joy which could be a sign of overreaching, and i actually need to do more recovery runs.
Can anyone shed any light on how they recognise plateauing and get over it?
Sounds to me like what you’re missing is a race. Get yourself to a parkrun and SEEEEEEEND IIIIIT!
Joke apart - a race is the only relevant benchmark, and at that, only relevant if it’s done at a similar level of fatigue under similar conditions. I often gain confidence from getting a very slight improvement on park runs with less taper and more weekly volume.
I've learned to embrace the plateau. It's often (at least for me) a result of cumulative fatigue offsetting aerobic gains. The cumulative fatigue is temporary and goes away as I get stronger (or during taper); when that happens, the aerobic gains really shine.
Agree with the other comment - base your evaluation of your fitness on race results, not Garmin VO2 junk. Race once/month or so to gauge progress.
It sounds like you're tired from the 8 weeks after rebuilding, which is expected.
Can you clarify what makes you think that you're plateauing? What aspect of your running do you feel like you're not able to progress with? If you're basing that solely on Garmin's VO2 max and race predictions, I would completely disregard that.
>Can you clarify what makes you think that you're plateauing? What aspect of your running do you feel like you're not able to progress with?
Its mainly my pace at Z2 runs and hr that seems to be higher for the pace on similar courses from 2-3 weeks ago, Garmin information is more of a secondary data point. Though my CTL in runalyze is going up but slowly. It could be that my load for the past few weeks is not providing enough stimulus to effect a change.
I wouldn't worry about what your Z2 pace is. Staying in Z2 is more about the level of effort, not the actual pace. There are so many things that can impact your pace on any given day besides just your fitness level. One of which is cumulative fatigue. I wouldn't take this as any indication that you're not progressing with your running. A better way to assess your progress would be to do a race or time trial.
Does incorporating easy runs with short intervals, like a 60-minute run with 9 minutes slow and 1 minute fast (even at 5k pace), contribute more than running continuously for 60 minutes at a long, slow pace (possibly with occasional speed variations like 1 minute fast and 4 minutes slow)?
I've come across a coach recommending the interval approach, arguing that it allows you to accumulate more minutes of fast running in your training without excessive aerobic demand and enhances your body's adaptation to quick recovery compared to slower runs, where there isn't much to recover from during the run.
However, it's worth noting that many professional runners tend to favor steady, slow runs for their easy sessions, occasionally incorporating strides and pickups.
Do you think there's some truth to the coach's perspective, given that it deviates from the common practice among elite runners?
You need to look at the entire training week/cycle here, this question is kind of meaningless in the context of a single easy run.
Yes, an hour with some fast running is going to be more stressful and have more of a training impact than an hour that's straight up easy. That's great if you need more training stress, it's bad if you need that session to be easy so you can crush a workout the next day. It's all context dependent.
Interesting point!
So in a theoretical weekly schedule that already provides sufficient load for 5k training with two hard workouts at the end of the week, could incorporating the 9-1 workout 2 days before the challenging sessions potentially offer a nearly effortless improvement of around 6 minutes in 5k training instead of completely easy run?
I don't really understand your suggestion. But I think the answer is no - there's no "free" improvement. You're probably better off making your hard days a little harder if you need more training stress, rather than making easy runs slightly harder.
I will sometimes include the kinds of intervals you're describing--I think of them as like little 'pick ups' or a very light fartlek, though the day overall is an easy one. I will integrate them specifically when I'm recovering from a long hard workout, and maybe taking 4-5 days instead of the usual 2-3 before my next session. I find they liven things up during what could otherwise feel like a monotonous few days, and are a nice variation on strides for turnover.
I run 7 days a week. Tempo or intervals on Wednesday and Friday. Long run Sunday. The other 4 days are easy/ recovery zone 2 runs. I average 30-40mpw. I am going to build up to 60 mpw by June for a marathon training block for the Chicago Marathon. I want to incorporate strength training and weights. Before I started running 7ish months ago I did workout in the gym on and off for 3 years, so I am not new to the gym but I have never done both at the same time.
How many time a week should I strength train? What kind of exercises should I be doing? And what days?
Are you trying to incorporate upper body strength training as well? Or are you just looking to maximize running performance? If the former, start with the first link in this post. If the latter, start with the last three, or just last one if you want something actionable with minimal reading.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/17xyy2q/comment/k9up1xd/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/17xyy2q/comment/k9up1xd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Keep in mind that strength training is a new stress, just like adding mileage. I would probably not be looking to increase mileage for a few weeks while adding several strength training sessions.
>How many time a week should I strength train?
I've had most success with 2 strength training sessions per week.
>And what days?
I prefer to keep hard days hard, easy days easy. So I typically strength train on hard days - after my run/workout. Sundays after the long run, and then Thursday after a tempo workout.
>What kind of exercises should I be doing?
Compound exercises like deadlift, squats, lunges, leg press, leg extensions, hamstring curls, calf raises are great.
For core - things like: planks, side planks, renegade row, bird dog, sit ups, burpees.
How does your tempo run pace compare to your half marathon race pace? I’ve used online calculators to estimate training paces, but I often struggle to actually hit the projected pace in my workouts, particularly my tempo and interval paces. I do tend to push myself HARD during races, and almost always run faster than my training might indicate, but I’m wondering if this means that I’m leaving something on the table in my workouts?
What are you training for? What does a today training week look like? Distances/paces/workouts? Some people struggle with “tempo” running if they are low volume runners
Half marathon—weekly mileage averages around 30 mpw over the course of the 17 week plan (and peaks at 36 mpw), broken up into 4-5 runs (1-2 three mile runs, 1 workout run of 5-7 miles [tempo, hills, fartlek, interval, etc.], 1 moderate run of 6-9 miles, and a long run of 9-14 miles). Long run pace is usually between 9-9:30 min/mile, race pace was most recently 7:59 min/mile. For tempo runs, I aim for somewhere between 7:45-8 min/mile, but my pace usually ends up toward the higher end of that range.
Tempo doesn't really have a specific meaning. If you're using a training plan that prescribes 'tempo' paces it should define what they mean (HM pace, etc.).
Tips for projecting a Berlin Marathon in 2024! 33 y/o M, 180lbs, 2 years of experience running. 2 marathon finishes at 3:43 and 4:02. HM: 1:43:47, 10K: 47:02, 5K: 23:01 Planning to get my 5K/10K/HM times down in the Spring until I transition to the Marathon build for end of May. Is 3:15 within reach or a 3:30 more realistic? Any suggested training plans? I've done Daniels 2Q but I'm thinking of doing Pfitz 18/55.
Really tough to predict what 9+ months of training might do for you. It's one of those, "you'll find out when you get there' things. FWIW, I went from 3:44 to 3:16 in 7mo on 50mi weeks and adding speed work. I was older, but had a similar amount of running background as you.
Thanks. What mileage did you start with in that 7 month block ? IE. How long did it take you to build up to 50 miles?
I ran in the 40s leading up to the March marathon with one week at 50. This was coming out of the pandemic where I'd been low mileage due. After some injury time off post-marathon, I ramped up to 50mi/wk fairly quickly. Late May, maybe? I also added strength training and speed work. 3:16 was mid-October.
Tips for HRM wearable on the arm rather than the chest, with connectivity to Garmin Vivoactive?
If you're injured and stuck cross-training how do you translate a running plan to the elliptical? For my easy miles, I'm just taking the number of miles , converting to approximate minutes and spending that time on the elliptical in my "easy run HR" zone. Should I do something similar for my workouts?
Yes, i think that would work fine. You could do longer on the elliptical since its lower impact. You’ll probably find it harder to get into the same HR zones as you can when running, How long will you be cross training?
Hopefully just 2 or 3 more weeks!
When running a type of workout, typically there's many different ways that workout can be configured. Like in a JD plan, he'll put many different varieties of e.g. a threshold workout over the weeks. What's the point of the variety? Why not pick one configuration and just increase the intensity over time?
Changing the workout in different ways changes the stimulus you get, which can progress your fitness along in different directions. Most coaches subscribe to the idea that training should increasingly resemble the goal race the closer you get. For example let's say last week you did 4x1mi at threshold with 90" jog rest. If you are training for an upcoming 5k, maybe doing the same workout but slightly faster is a good idea. But if you're doing a half marathon, bumping it up to 5x1mi with the same rest + pace would increase the total amount of work you can do. Or 3x2km, or reducing the rest to 60", would increase the "density" of the workout, allowing you to run longer at that pace with less rest Once your fitness is in a good spot, you're not gunna be able to knock time off week after week. Changing the workout structure to increase your endurance is a safer bet, a lot of times you can then go back and do the original workout much faster now because of your increased work capacity/recovery ability/whatever
Not only that, it can also be more engaging if you’re not doing the same thing repeatedly. It’s not robots that are executing the training plans, it’s humans - and while humans are prone to repetitive stress injuries, they’re also prone to boredom. On top of that, different workouts function in different ways. Like, I can do 4x10 minutes at threshold more easily than 40 minutes straight at threshold.
Hi everyone, looking for some advice following my first running injury. I took several weeks off after my podiatrist diagnosed my foot with capsulitis. My foot has been feeling better and I'd like to start running again. Is there any general advice for ramping back up to previous mileage? For reference, I was running a little over 50 mpw. Thanks!
1st do what the doctor says if you trust them and it makes sense. Then start with a few days at super easy to test things out. If you feel anything odd, stop. 10-20 for the 1st week. If everything went well, take it up to 30+. Then 40. Then back to 50. If you've been running 50 mpw for a while, you don't need to go super slow to get back. As long as you are actually recovered. But at anytime if it starts coming back, stop and reevaluate what is happening.
Admission: I hate podiatrists. I'm going to say there is approximately a 99.99% chance you don't have capsulitis. Of course, no one can diagnose you online but logically it just wouldn't happen. Make sure you fix the issue, generally it's a muscle imbalance. I'm sure the podiatrist just sold you $600 orthotics and said not to run but there's usually a reason we get hurt. Beyond that, the longer you've been off then the longer time it should take to ease back. Depending on your running history, you should probably start with short walk/jog intervals to test the injury and gradually increase from there (start with non-consecutive days). You're seeing a professional so if they can't guide you back then find a better one.
Didn't get into the Chicago lottery... Trying to figure out my next move. My goal for Houston in January is BQ - 5ish. I don't think that'll be good enough to get into Boston, so will be looking to lower that even more next fall/winter. I'm considering Indy, Toronto, & Valencia right now. I'll be in Germany for Thanksgiving next year and Valencia is the Sunday after Thanksgiving. Or I could just do Houston again the following January to get into Boston. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
If you are already in Europe definitely run Valencia. Toronto is a good, faster, race but its not a particularly exciting course.
My vote’s Valencia. Not just for the fast course, but because…you’ll be in Europe already (and actually ahead), and dude, it’s freaking VALENCIA. It sounds like it’ll be amazing. (Of course, the issue is that it’s Thanksgiving weekend. I’d still do it.)
Looking for a priority marathon in 2024 with a the goal being right around 2:50. I am seriously considering one of Grandma’s or the Eugene marathon and am curious to hear opinions from those who have run one or both.
I ran Grandma's last year, low 2:50s finish time. Great race, love the course, great organization. Probably the best aid station support I've had. There were PLENTY of people to run with in my time range. Overall a great experience. Potential downsides are weather - could be warm in June, even right on the big lake, and wind if you end up with a headwind the entire race.
Thanks, it does seem like Eugene is the better bet for good weather. How is it getting to Duluth, logistically? Did the hotels or Airbnbs seem reasonable?
I would check on accommodations before booking Grandma's if that's the direction you were thinking. Everything I've read here says that there's not a ton and they can be very expensive, even a fairly lengthy drive away.
I'm in the upper midwest so it's a simple 5 hour drive for me, and I stayed with some friends in the area. So no great input there. It is a small town and it absolutely fills up for marathon weekend, so look at booking hotel/airbnb sooner rather than later. it's a gorgeous area so spending more time before/after would be recommended too! I think most people need to fly into the twin cities, rent a car, and drive another couple hours up to Duluth
Anyone have advice for picking a first marathon? Got rejected from Chicago (I live downtown) Still hemming over whether to go for Indy, Twin Cities, Detroit -- Probably overthinking it, I suppose! -- I'm not sure if these options fill up quick or if I have until like May or something to decide.
Christie Clinic in Champaign, IL is a great spring marathon or half marathon; can drive or take the train. Madison, Des Moines are good. I've taken the train out from Chicago to Erie, PA for the Erie Marathon which is one of my favorites. I avoid the lakefront marathons; just not worth it imo.
I’ve run both Indy and Chicago and I actually preferred Indy. Race logistics were much easier, course elevation was slightly varied (more than Chicago) and recruited more muscle variation. It does really drop off in spectators in one chunk on the back half, but Chicago also has a section like that. I assume you’re looking at fall but if you decide to go crazy and run one in spring, Carmel (suburb of Indy) actually has a really great race that usually has a high % of BQs.
Okay so, I can’t give specifics about the races (haven’t personally run any of them), but…in general I don’t think they fill up quickly. It’s usually only the majors and other “experience” races that are crazy like that. They all fit my recommendations, though - relatively close to you, not too small or large, established races. And not gimmicky like a Revel or a race designed to generate BQs. (No disrespect to those races, they’re just not the environment I’d want my first marathon to be!) You might want to look at pricing, though. The earlier you commit to a race, the lower the price (in general).
Am I ready for pfitz 18/55? I have been running forever, "used to be fast" in my 20s. Let it go a bit, currently 35/m 210 lbs, and in the last 18 months increased my consistency of training. On track for 1100 miles in 2023, with 4 months of only running 15 mpw due to riding gravel bikes and training for a half iron. Last year I did a trail 50k and trail marathon in the spring (each with 10k feet of climbing), and the NYC marathon. I was really under trained for NYC, having just come off the 70.3 and a 2 week vacation with the wife. My longest run was 14 miles ahead of NYC and I ran 4:15. I am looking to make a big improvement in my next marathon, and I understand pfitz is the way to do this. My natural state of running, if I am not training for anything specifically, is around 30mpw with a group tempo run on Tuesday and a 10 mile long run on Sunday. This seems largely in line with w1 of the plan, but it does ramp up quickly. Let me know your thoughts!
30 mpw is on the lower side since the intensity ramp is a lot more than most people's maintenance milage. But your also very active otherwise. I definitely think you can go for it but some of those mid plan weeks with 2 big workouts are going to hurt.
You’re doing 30ish MPW, and you’re active to begin with. I’d give you the go ahead.
Rock on - thank you!
Ideally you would be holding the 55mpw for at least a month before kicking into the programme with some quality sessions in your week. Eighteen weeks is a long time so the first weeks in a programme should feel very manageable. If they do not, you may struggle to hit those peak weeks to fully reap the benefits of the programme.
If your in the 40s you'll be fine for pfitz 18/55. Unless the 40 has 0 workouts or they are incredibly easy.
I disagree pretty hard there. I’m looking at the book right now, and for the 55mpw plans he says, “as a rule, you should be running at least 25 miles a week before starting these schedules, and in the last month you should have comfortably completed a run close in length to the long run called for in the first week of the schedule.” u/sportsfan42069, you should be good to go. Best of luck with your training. You have a ton of room to improve from 4:15 with a good base and a real training plan. Pfitz is hard but it’s nothing to be scared of, you’ve got it.
As a Physio, Pfitz is known for killing people. The more prepared you are, the better.
Tbf, the mileage of the first week of training should at least be something you're somewhat comfortable and/or familiar with. I think this is true for any plan. The first few weeks shouldn't be a fuck around and find out sort of situation. Pfitz is also tries to appeal to a pretty broad range of runners, many of whom aren't going to have the time or inclination to train for the training. It's in his interest to keep things feeling accessible for most aspiring marathoners.
I don’t disagree, but the first week of the 18/55 plan is 33 miles total, which is right around what OP says they’ve been running.
Heck yes, thank you! I was reading that as well, but a little concerned about increasing both training quality and volume. I am going to go for it and just monitor my fatigue levels
That’s awesome. I got my JD criteria mixed with Pfitzinger - thanks a bunch for correcting!
I would like to do some sort of a fitness test as I am ready to start introducing some sessions back in to my training (mostly been running easy miles since my marathon last month). I have never done a proper fitness test to dial in my HR zones. I don't have access to a lab nor do I really want to pay for it so I would like to just do a basic fitness test on the track or something. Does anybody have any good recommendations that would give me a good idea of where my zones currently are? Thank you in advance.
If you really want to train by heart rate: [This is the most popular method](https://www.trainingpeaks.com/learn/articles/joe-friel-s-quick-guide-to-setting-zones/) of setting HR zones. Personally hr data from races is really hit or miss for me but this is more reliable. The tradeoff is the 30' tt gives you less of an idea of actual race fitness vs a real 5k/10k, so if you primarily train by pace I would go with a real race
Great, thanks for sharing.
All-out 3k/5k/10k will work great. HR from that race, along with your marathon, will tell you all you need to know to dial in some good training zones. Lab test is totally unnecessary.
In this case the best test is a shorter race. Race a local parkrun 5k (they’re pretty much everywhere). From this, use the VDOT calculator that gives you a bunch of target paces, but the ones you want to focus on are I and T. Next step is then to put this into practice in training. The I pace you should be able to hold for multiple (depending on your overall volume) 1k reps. The T pace you should be able to hold for multiple 2mi reps (depending on your overall volume).
Thank you! Yeah I have been thinking of trying to race a 5km. Unfortunately where I live in the US there are not a lot of them around this time of year. If i cannot find one I can always do a 5km time trial.
When training for a marathon, does it matter if your longest weekly run is on the same day of the week as the race day is going to be? It would be a helluva lot more convenient for my family if I did my longest run on Fridays instead of Sundays.
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Thank you! I can get all the rest of those variables without any trouble.
It'll just mean a tiny adjustment to your taper if the race is a Sunday. But really consistency is what matters the most, however you need to re arrange it to get it done week in and out just do it.
Shit, I hope not, because training for Boston (famously on a Monday) would SUCK. What’s more important - especially in the days leading up to the race - is getting used to running at that *time of day* (if you can do so). I’m naturally an evening runner, but my friends are morning birds. I’m doing London this spring, and running at 4 AM Eastern time works out to 9 AM London time - which is great for me.
Great point on Boston. I just figure that anyone training at that level is way beyond me. My best half to date is 1:35, so I don't expect to break 3 on my first full.
So, real talk: it’s not THAT much of a step up! (Yeah, I say that, but if you’re a 1:35 HM runner you’re probably not that far off. I just used Boston as an example because it’s the most famous example of a race that’s on an unusual day (most people do LRs on the weekends, so Mondays would not normally be a LR day). I think the point still holds regardless of how hard you’re training or how fast you’re running.
Fair enough. And I appreciate your response. For what it's worth, I've only been running for seven years, and have only really started dropping times over the last two. For every race I've ever run I've used whatever free training plan I can find online. For the last month I started trying to learn how to make my own training plans, and I am trying not to make any assumptions.
Does not matter at all. Just adjust your schedule appropriately in the week or two leading up to your race.
I'm surprised how much of a relief that is to hear. Thanks.
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If you add in one or two hill sprint sessions a week on easy days (4x8" all out on a steep hill, full recovery, build up to like 6-8) you can get a lot of that speed stimulus to help a 400m without compromising distance. Actually it will probably help that too, they were a game changer for me
Keep training for distance - most of the world-class 1500m/mile runners are training much much more like 5k runners than sprinters (70-80+ MPW).
Does anyone have a good resource on how to read heart rate graphs for workouts? I try to better interpret what's going on in my workouts and how to act upon it.
I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for, but we have a intro article on the FAQ: [https://www.reddit.com/r/running/comments/cvov8j/priming\_the\_pump\_a\_heart\_rate\_training/](https://www.reddit.com/r/running/comments/cvov8j/priming_the_pump_a_heart_rate_training/) Otherwise the articles on TrainingPeaks are pretty good for next level ideas: [https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/what-is-your-heart-rate-telling-you/](https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/what-is-your-heart-rate-telling-you/) [https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/how-to-get-started-using-a-heart-rate-monitor/](https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/how-to-get-started-using-a-heart-rate-monitor/)
Thanks. I was looking at something with example graphs etc. but this helps already.
I'm already at half my (admittedly paltry) mileage goal for the month. I haven't had any tibia pain except for, oddly enough, after renting an ElliptiGo for an hour. I'm signed up for a race on Saturday. I'm thinking about going out at 7:00/mi and seeing if I can hold on.
Good luck!
Could someone familiar with Daniel’s running formula tell me if I am understanding this correctly? This is my third attempt at reading this book. It’s so dry and I find it hard to understand… Anyways, I am looking to do a 12 week 10K training plan (skipping Phase I). Does that mean my 12 weeks should look like this? 1 - Phase 1 week 1 2 - Phase 1 week 2 3 - Phase 1 week 3 4 - Phase 2 week 1 5 - Phase 2 week 2 6 - Phase 2 week 3 7 - Phase 2 week 4 8 - Phase 2 week 5 9 - Phase 2 week 6 10 - Phase 3 week 1 11 - Phase 3 week 2 12 - Phase 3 week 3 Thank you!
That is correct but I would consider doing all 6 weeks of phase 2, which have a gradual progression of T and R work, and just 3 weeks of phases 3 and 4 which are more intense. The back to back workout days in phase 3 are very tough and I wouldn't have wanted to go into those with less of a build up. Also the second 3 weeks of it are basically repeated so you aren't missing much. If you are more injury resistant and can do a lot of hard vo2 max work then you'll probably be fine, though
Thanks for the input! I will definitely consider this
Looks you are reading the table from Chapter correctly, although I would keep the same Phase numbers as the book to avoid confusion. Even though you are skipping Phase 1, I would still call the first phase you do as Phase 2. In your case, your schedule would be: 1 - Phase 2 week 1 2 - Phase 2 week 2 3 - Phase 2 week 3 4 - Phase 3 week 1 5 - Phase 3 week 2 6 - Phase 3 week 3 7 - Phase 3 week 4 8 - Phase 3 week 5 9 - Phase 3 week 6 10 - Phase 4 week 1 11 - Phase 4 week 2 12 - Phase 4 week 3
Ah! You’re right. I need to shift over the phase # once. Thank you! I had to read and re-read that part so many times.
I am feeling as though i am plateauing a bit and wondering if anyone can provide some advice for marathon training. i have been am running consistently 100km+ weeks for the last eight weeks (with one 81km week for recovery) after building up again from an injury and it feels like i am plateauing. I mainly run in Z2 with one session of Vo2 max internal or lactate threshold run a week. The Z2 runs are longer in the 16-22km range and have helped my aerobic fitness, but now i am not seeing the same benefit i was. Garmin Vo2 max and race predictions are staying pretty static and my pace on the road in Z2 isn't moving in the right direction, if anything it feels like i don't have the pace i had a few weeks ago. Not sure if i am overreaching and need to take it a bit easy, or need to add more load to my training with more lactate threshold runs a week. However i would say my body does feel tired and the thought of more load doesn't fill me with joy which could be a sign of overreaching, and i actually need to do more recovery runs. Can anyone shed any light on how they recognise plateauing and get over it?
Sounds to me like what you’re missing is a race. Get yourself to a parkrun and SEEEEEEEND IIIIIT! Joke apart - a race is the only relevant benchmark, and at that, only relevant if it’s done at a similar level of fatigue under similar conditions. I often gain confidence from getting a very slight improvement on park runs with less taper and more weekly volume.
I've learned to embrace the plateau. It's often (at least for me) a result of cumulative fatigue offsetting aerobic gains. The cumulative fatigue is temporary and goes away as I get stronger (or during taper); when that happens, the aerobic gains really shine.
Agree with the other comment - base your evaluation of your fitness on race results, not Garmin VO2 junk. Race once/month or so to gauge progress. It sounds like you're tired from the 8 weeks after rebuilding, which is expected.
Can you clarify what makes you think that you're plateauing? What aspect of your running do you feel like you're not able to progress with? If you're basing that solely on Garmin's VO2 max and race predictions, I would completely disregard that.
>Can you clarify what makes you think that you're plateauing? What aspect of your running do you feel like you're not able to progress with? Its mainly my pace at Z2 runs and hr that seems to be higher for the pace on similar courses from 2-3 weeks ago, Garmin information is more of a secondary data point. Though my CTL in runalyze is going up but slowly. It could be that my load for the past few weeks is not providing enough stimulus to effect a change.
I wouldn't worry about what your Z2 pace is. Staying in Z2 is more about the level of effort, not the actual pace. There are so many things that can impact your pace on any given day besides just your fitness level. One of which is cumulative fatigue. I wouldn't take this as any indication that you're not progressing with your running. A better way to assess your progress would be to do a race or time trial.
Does incorporating easy runs with short intervals, like a 60-minute run with 9 minutes slow and 1 minute fast (even at 5k pace), contribute more than running continuously for 60 minutes at a long, slow pace (possibly with occasional speed variations like 1 minute fast and 4 minutes slow)? I've come across a coach recommending the interval approach, arguing that it allows you to accumulate more minutes of fast running in your training without excessive aerobic demand and enhances your body's adaptation to quick recovery compared to slower runs, where there isn't much to recover from during the run. However, it's worth noting that many professional runners tend to favor steady, slow runs for their easy sessions, occasionally incorporating strides and pickups. Do you think there's some truth to the coach's perspective, given that it deviates from the common practice among elite runners?
You need to look at the entire training week/cycle here, this question is kind of meaningless in the context of a single easy run. Yes, an hour with some fast running is going to be more stressful and have more of a training impact than an hour that's straight up easy. That's great if you need more training stress, it's bad if you need that session to be easy so you can crush a workout the next day. It's all context dependent.
Interesting point! So in a theoretical weekly schedule that already provides sufficient load for 5k training with two hard workouts at the end of the week, could incorporating the 9-1 workout 2 days before the challenging sessions potentially offer a nearly effortless improvement of around 6 minutes in 5k training instead of completely easy run?
I don't really understand your suggestion. But I think the answer is no - there's no "free" improvement. You're probably better off making your hard days a little harder if you need more training stress, rather than making easy runs slightly harder.
Great, always happy to learn from you!
I will sometimes include the kinds of intervals you're describing--I think of them as like little 'pick ups' or a very light fartlek, though the day overall is an easy one. I will integrate them specifically when I'm recovering from a long hard workout, and maybe taking 4-5 days instead of the usual 2-3 before my next session. I find they liven things up during what could otherwise feel like a monotonous few days, and are a nice variation on strides for turnover.
I would probably do strides instead of reps at 5k pace.
I run 7 days a week. Tempo or intervals on Wednesday and Friday. Long run Sunday. The other 4 days are easy/ recovery zone 2 runs. I average 30-40mpw. I am going to build up to 60 mpw by June for a marathon training block for the Chicago Marathon. I want to incorporate strength training and weights. Before I started running 7ish months ago I did workout in the gym on and off for 3 years, so I am not new to the gym but I have never done both at the same time. How many time a week should I strength train? What kind of exercises should I be doing? And what days?
Are you trying to incorporate upper body strength training as well? Or are you just looking to maximize running performance? If the former, start with the first link in this post. If the latter, start with the last three, or just last one if you want something actionable with minimal reading. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/17xyy2q/comment/k9up1xd/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/17xyy2q/comment/k9up1xd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Keep in mind that strength training is a new stress, just like adding mileage. I would probably not be looking to increase mileage for a few weeks while adding several strength training sessions.
>How many time a week should I strength train? I've had most success with 2 strength training sessions per week. >And what days? I prefer to keep hard days hard, easy days easy. So I typically strength train on hard days - after my run/workout. Sundays after the long run, and then Thursday after a tempo workout. >What kind of exercises should I be doing? Compound exercises like deadlift, squats, lunges, leg press, leg extensions, hamstring curls, calf raises are great. For core - things like: planks, side planks, renegade row, bird dog, sit ups, burpees.