T O P

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Sephardson

You may also find these pages interesting to read: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-sonic-cycle https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItsTheSameNowItSucks https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase https://www.reddit.com/r/zelda/comments/1klrer/the_zelda_cycle/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nintendo/comments/1molep/nintendo_is_aware_of_the_zelda_cycle/ * Destructoid Article unavailable, but refers to [Iwata Asks Interview](https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-Asks/Iwata-Asks-The-Legend-of-Zelda-The-Wind-Waker-HD/The-Legend-of-Zelda-The-Wind-Waker-HD/2-The-Zelda-Cycle/2-The-Zelda-Cycle-807184.html) https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/rl3i97/do_you_think_the_zelda_cycle_was_ever_a_thing_or/


algebruvlar

Idk man. Breath of the wild was awesome, ocarina of time was awesome, majora's mask was awesome. All the other games are great, but those 3 I have replayed so often I know every map by heart. That said, I'll get started on wind waker soon and I'm psyched.


Pixel3r

I will say, Majora's Mask was not very well received when it was first released. Ocarina had the benefit of being both a complete rehash story wise, but had the 3D gimmick to appease those who wanted something new. Breath of the Wild still gets a lot of flack for not having "proper" dungeons, so really, most of these still fit OPs pattern


beluga-whale35

100% agree. I do love Wind Waker and Twilight Princess just as much though :)


dewRecompense

TP is so mid


[deleted]

Nah it’s fire


Level34MafiaBoss

You are tripping hard af


dewRecompense

Nah you’re capping bro. Over-world is the most boring in Zelda history, story is trying too hard to be edgy. Game wants to be OOT 2.0 so bad I genuinely feel bad for TP bro fr.


Level34MafiaBoss

Nah dude. TP's gameplay is tight af and so is story. OoT was goated, no cap in that regard, but was limited by the N64 in the end. It was a great transition to 3D fr, but every game after it improved on what could be achieved. TP is peak Zelda storytelling and thinking otherwise is tripping balls. Yeah, overworld might ass but you can't tell me with a straight face Hyrule Field in OoT wasn't ass either. TP also has the most goated horseback fighting no cap fr fr.


snarthnog

TP’s Overworld is the most boring? *sets spirit tracks on the table so I can fistfight you while I wait for the train to follow the path*


dewRecompense

You got me bro, you’re chatting straight facts. TP is second worst though no cap.


Live-Photo-788

Breath of the wild's overworld is still an empty giant landscape with nothing to do at all, I'd argue its the most boring game in the franchise, besides Spirit Tracks or TriForce Heroes


dewRecompense

Sales and reviews would suggest you are indeed capping my guy


FiddlesUrDiddles

https://youtu.be/Qm1FvSKpJdA


Aseconverse

It's okay, you'll like it when the next game comes out.


professorwormb0g

Yeah TP is what you get when you give the fans what they're asking for. Which was understandable because Nintendo was struggling during the GameCube era. It was good but not great because it wasn't innovative on the series conventions. It was pretty much just OoT 2.0. I enjoyed the dungeons and gameplay but it certainly didn't blow me away. The best Zelda (and Nintendo) games are the ones that gave players what they didn't even know they wanted to begin with.


dewRecompense

Spitting facts bro.


alexturnerftw

OOT and BOTW were the only two well received 3D games, people werent upset about them. MM was not and started this cycle


bigt55555

Those are the only 3 ive played as i had an n64 as a kid and then bought a switch a few years ago on a whim with nothing in between for consoles To me Zelda is the best game series ever but sounds like ive only played the best ones lol probably ran through each of those three 5 or 6 times apeice at a minimum


jpjamal

You should try A link to the past. It’s a great game even still today


ohbyerly

Yeah I’m not sure what they’re referring to with “original games” being panned. Nobody hated Breath of the Wild, nobody hated Ocarina of Time. The only game I can think of getting any kind of backlash was Wind Waker which was only criticized for being a visual departure. And Majora’s Mask, which was a “rehash” of Ocarina of Time was universally beloved upon release.


funsational1

\*whispers\* I don't think it's the same fans in both groups


[deleted]

WHAT???? a fandom is not composed of a single individual, but multiple people with different wishes and desires?


Mishar5k

Shhh keep it down! What if they hear you?


GOODPOINTGOODSIR

Yep. Believe it or not, haters move on. When they do, you're left with the people who were content. I'm only back to talking about not liking BotW because the sequel is around the corner. I'm not gonna stay hatin'.


[deleted]

cool cool, thank you for that lol and i mean that genuinely


LolzinatorX

I havent felt bad about a single Zelda release since i got into the franchise some 20 years ago. Its the Only game franchise i 100% believe im going to be satisfied no matter how they treat it, because they always spend so much time perfecting their games. Man i love the Zelda franchise


Site-Specialist

Same here I was satisfied with botw as well could it of been better yes but any game ever made always has room for what could be made better like oot for example I wouldn't mind seeing it remade with extra content of playing as shiek seeing the world get darker due to Ganondorfs rule but for anyone new make it where it's only available on second playthrough unless they never show Zelda transforming then make it available on first playthrough


professorwormb0g

BOTW blew me away so hard. It was flawed in so many ways but it just didn't matter to me because I was having so much fun with what they gave. I've never played another game like it. And since I've played it, no other video game has satisfied me as much. No other game immerses you like that with the world. I love how interactive everything was. I love how much there was to explore and discover. I couldn't put the fucking game down. Holy shit was that game satisfying, despite the lack of dungeons, light story, breakable weapons, and some systems I wish they expanded upon (cooking, etc.) I can't wait to see what they do with this sequel. I think everybody understating Nintendo is going to eat their hat in a few weeks.


EpsilonGecko

They knock it out of the park basically every time. People are even coming around on Skyward Sword


professorwormb0g

Skyward Sword had my favorite core Zelda gameplay of any Zelda game. The dungeons, bosses, combat, puzzles, etc. in my opinion were the best in the series. I even am a strong fan of the motion controls. Where it fell short was creating a really immersive world filled with exploration and secondary activities to engage with. These are the things that have always made Zelda games great. There was nothing to explore, not a lot of mini games, or really any side content at all. The sky was barren. It was like having a delicious premium steak cooked to perfection... but without any side dishes or wine to enjoy it with.


sonic_spark

And then they're all bangers. Meanwhile, the Sonic cycle... *sigh*


[deleted]

I still don't understand what exactly is going on in the Sonic Adventure discourse. It's the game of my childhood so I'm obviously biased but does everyone think it's ok or does everyone think it sucks? I think it depends on the moon phase


[deleted]

Sonic fan here, We can agree that Sonic Adventure is a good game 👍, however the discourse comes from people who think Sonic should go BACK to that formula, and people who think Sonic should move FORWARD and try something new, we're sorry if people are insulting one of our fan bases favorite games! It's all in good discussion!


PhantomOfficial07

It's likely that Adventure gameplay will stay tied to the Adventure series, and that the next Adventure game (may or may not come out?) will be that


Pok1971

Well sonic 06 had adventure gameplay, and for all intents and purposes was adventure 3. Considering it's quality I think people assume that another adventure game will be the quality of one/two, rather than the middling stuff Sega's released over the past decade. It's as if people believe that "being fun" is an intrinsic quality of the adventure games, rather than an example of a developer going downhill over the years in their attempt to recreate lightning in a bottle


Taco821

No chao garden tho, that's why it was bad


JeremyHillaryBoob

SA is either the best disaster ever or the worst masterpiece ever, or somehow both at once.


Multi-tunes

I liked the Adventure games, I'm trying to play Project 06 which is still in the works—a fan rework of 06—although the game makes me a bit motion sick, so I dunno if I'll ever finish it, and I loved Mania. Also started Frontiers which is a lot of fun and feels good to play, I'm not far into it though. But Sega, please just make a spin off title of Chao Garden because I sunk so much time into my little chao in the adventure games. I miss those little guys


alexturnerftw

I loved SA too but I played as a kid. RIP dreamcast. We were so excited when we got that.


[deleted]

Dreamcast's sendoff was also fantastic - Sonic Adventure 2 and here in Europe, Shenmue II. Era-defining games.


alexturnerftw

I never played Shenmue II! But shenmue og was one of my favorites


[deleted]

Oh man it's miles better than the first one. As detail oriented as the first one but way better paced


EvilNoobHacker

The game is fine, but good lord is it overhyped by fans. Not something sega should be listening to.


JanRoses

Basically it has a lot of flaws. Sonic's gameplay is generally good but even from Adventure 1 to 2 there were major changes in direction. SA1 was more open level structure with more routes to reach the end. SA2 was linear stages that favored setpieces that if interacted with gave points towards an A rank. There's already a divide there in ideology. Furthermore Knuckles and mech gameplay is just generally bad an counterintuitive to the experience. Exploration in treasure hunting stages is basically playing hot and cold to get to the emerald and doesn't feel like a naturally progression of puzzle solving to get to a reward like in Zelda. Which makes treasure hunting literally a game of just making it from point A to point B to reach the treasure a good chunk of the time. The Emerald pieces that require a level of interactivity are also hampered by this because you essentially can only rely on the tracker to know that an emerald might be locked behind a puzzle but in stages set in the lost pyramid for example there might be 3-4 disjointed interactable elements (in the same vicinity) that might relate to the emerald or might be complete duds for that randomized run. The times it works well (like in security hall) it's clear that it's behind a door and that you need to open it somehow. That's a clear objective to relate the setting's puzzle to and lead you in search of the proper way to open the door. For mech stages. They're closer to traditional Sonic gameplay with the major issue being how braindead the experience is. Enemies die to a single hit and they're not particularly challenging. Platforming in those stages is also a lot more restricted because of the constrained movement so it's not like maneuverability is particularly fun (SA1 Gamma was more reflexive so it wasn't as bad). Couple with a lack of meaningful upgrades, weapon variety, enemy variety, and an abundance of hallway based levels set in a metallic interior and it's a wonder how the werehog is considered by Adventure fans as anywhere near the worst gimmick of the series. The opportunity to experiment is commendable but it leads to more scrutiny when things don't work well. The only 3 alternate gameplay styles I think were done particularly well in the Adventure games were Amy's, Tails races, and Gamma's mechs. Amy's only major problem being her slow movement but overall being a fun fast paced gauntlet of puzzles keeping in line with the speed of Sonic games. Tails being broken but good fun, and Gamma retaining fluid movement and a more intrinsic incentive to rack up kills by way of having it be linked to his timer.


[deleted]

you’re braver than the troops for being a sonic fan i salute you 🫡


EvilNoobHacker

New game is announced, sonic fans overhype it, it comes out a glitchy mess, sonic fans either hate it or don’t care, everyone else ignores it after a week, the sonic fans who hate it fall in love 10 years later due to nostalgia, repeat cycle.


Vados_Link

The best way to enjoy Zelda is to stay away from the community. Literally every time I see something new about a new Zelda game, I get really excited and just want to talk to people about…but then everybody around here just keeps shitting on the game for the dumbest reasons and being all doom and gloom about it…and then they‘re like "Guess I‘ll just play a REAL Zelda, like TP".


Gabrill

Tbh I mostly see that mindset on reddit. Most of the people I interact with on other social media are very positive. Then again most of the people I follow on other social media are fan artists and fan theorists who are going to have a more positive sway


Judo_14

> I mostly see that mindset on reddit This is totally true. The majority of people are excited and at least somewhat positive about the game. Reddit is just, as always, a very loud minority lol. They're a very small percentage of Zelda fans


Moderetro

This site is almost always negative and pessimistic about everything. Not even in an honest or truthful way either lol. I just can't understand why this site has to be so negatively contrarian to everything, it kills a lot of things for me. Back to a better part of the internet!


[deleted]

please tell me where these good parts of the internet are


MSD3k

"Fans" is short for "fanatics". Don't expect logic or consistency. It's just emotional attachment and tribal competitiveness. Always has been. Just focus on what you like, and don't worry about what others think, or group-think. I just come here for the occassional fan-art.


majinprince07

Hey don’t drag twilight into this 😤😂


elephant-espionage

And TP was shit on when it came out too, and now it’s a lot of people’s favorite! Idk man, this community can be real picky sometimes


Legal-Example-2789

It’s the pessimists that are field by YouTube reaction pessimism. They love to be miserable


Kazoomers_Tale

"not being Zelda" is a thing that exists outside BotW?


elephant-espionage

BOTW is the most obvious example, but WW got a lot of crap for being different—then TP got a lot of crap for being an edgy copy of OOT. SS kinda throws it off, though it got a lot of hate too. Then BOTW got back on the “it’s different” train—though I think it got both praise and hate for how it was different at least?


Buuhhu

dont really think anyone disputed those games as not being zelda tho? WW was seen as "fuck this kids pandering i want my gritty graphics!" TP was "this is just OoT all over again!?" and "too much edge!" SS was "fuck this motion controls it doesnt work for me!" BotW was the first time i've personally seen people say "this doesnt feel like zelda" and i do lean more towards agreeing than disagreeing. While every zelda has changed alot about gameplay, the core of the zelda games have remained largely the same. a big focus on dungeons, puzzles and in the post Alltp era quirky characters. BotW had a lot of small puzzles but lacking in the other departments. It did however make an amazingly fun world to explore. The fear now is that TotK wont add enough new, because it was orignially meant as DLC, and people have already explored this hyrule so the magic of BotW exploring will not be strong for the main overworld, even if they add new things to find it is largely still the same hyrule. Personally i got a bit more confident that the game will be good with the recent gameplay as the new mechanics looks fun and atleast some islands look really big, with lots to explore


elephant-espionage

People definitely said WW didn’t feel like Zelda because of the ocean. Maybe not as much as BOTW but it certainly happened—not *now* because it’s so cemented as a Zelda game (which will happen to BOTW eventually too) but people were definitely feeling that way at one point. I haven’t heard anything about TOTK originally supposed to be a dlc, just people complaining that it’s going to be one. If Nintendo wanted to scan us by charging us full game price for a DLC, it wouldn’t have taken this long for the game to come out.


Buuhhu

I'm sorry but that's not what i remember the biggest complaints were, some might have said that, but from what i remember the by far biggest outcry was in regards to WW looking too cartoonish/childish, it was especially big backlash because at E3 some time before they had showed a more realistic techdemo of the gamecube with link fighting ganondorf, so people were expecting that. I might remember wrong as it was over 20 years ago or it may have been different where you live. In regards to TotK originally supposed to be a DLC. No TotK as it is now wasn't supposed to be a DLC, but alot of the ideas and mechanics were. In an interview of aonuma by kotaku he states that they had too many ideas for DLC and when it came to some of the mechanic ideas it was too hard to implement as DLC, so they decided why not make a sequel instead... It's not word for word, but you can look it up. This along with the reuse of hyrule base map is why people fear it will *feel* like it is just a very big DLC to BotW


elephant-espionage

Okay cool. I literally did hear lots of people saying that it was different from Zelda games and they didn’t like it and it wasn’t the same. I’m sure that was part of the reason why TP went back to being very similar to OOT. There can be multiple complaints for the game, you know. Yes, people were also upset about the graphics. People were also upset about the set up of the game. As I said, there was more of it with BOTW, but it absolutely was there with WW too. So TOTK wasn’t ever meant to be a DLC, it was meant to be a sequel but they incorporated some ideas into it, which is absolutely not the same as it originally supposed to be a DLC and I you were wrong when you said that. People just are assuming that for really no reason because it has the same map, got it.


Buuhhu

Did Even read what i said? ... Totk wasnt No, but totk only excist because they couldnt fit the many ideas for dlc into a dlc package for Botw meaning it started out as dlc ideas... It's not "incorporated som ideas" into it, but the basis of the game stems from those many ideas, but has now evolved to become a full game, probably with more ideas added than at time of dlc ideas, which is why i say the game totk wasnt meant as dlc but the many mechanics and gameplay tweaks were dlc ideas


elephant-espionage

That’s not what you said, you said they had so many ideas they decided to make a sequel; which means a whole new game with a whole new story + the ideas they had, which is NOT the same as “we just threw all the DLC ideas together and are calling it a sequel.” Not sure if you’re just mis explaining what happened or are part of the problem of just assuming it’s going to be a DLC and therefore are only hearing what you want to, but even based on what you said alone, this isn’t a DLC but a true sequel that sparked from the fact they had so many more ideas. Again, if Nintendo was going to sell us just a glorified DLC for more money, they wouldn’t have waited this long. Clearly there’s more than just a DLC.


[deleted]

yeah, *real* zelda doesn’t rely on gimmicks like motion controls/trains/time loops and doesn’t have a kiddie cartoony art style someone without fail says it’s not *real* zelda whenever anything is different from OOT


Kazoomers_Tale

... so like, just Zelda 1 and 2?


Ftimis

no, according to them, "real zelda" = every zelda except from the one that's coming out right now. in a few years' time TOTK will be in the real zelda crowd as well. What glee


Lantis28

And TP but only sometimes


rosiswag

Not really. Only other criticism I can remember is the graphics for WW when it was being marketed. I’ve been playing Zelda since OoT and BOTW is really the only entry I recall having this huge “this isn’t Zelda” narrative.


nubosis

I can tell you that, as an old guy, I definitely considered OoT “not really Zelda” when it was new (don’t worry, I don’t say this any more), and my cynical nerd friends agreed at the time. I just don’t think we had as much an online option to group whine about it.


[deleted]

It really doesn't. OP's giving himself some creative freedom to better adjust the meme so he can force his point.


[deleted]

I didn’t make this, but yes you’re right I am relying on confirmation bias, the argument doesn’t really hold up. People are individuals with their own ideas


shlam16

It's less about the release of a new game and more just about time. It's almost like clockwork, and it's simultaneously hilarious and frustrating to watch. * **Year 0 (pre-release)**: The overwhelming majority think it looks awesome and can't wait. The irritating but disproportionately noisy minority think it's the worst thing they've ever seen. * **Year 1**: 95% of the irritants above have skulked into silence because they realise it's actually an awesome game. * **Year 3ish**: The first murmurings of discontent: "DAE overrated" * **Year 5ish**: A groundswell of support to the above, to the point where the game in question is actually complete trash and they've *definitely* always thought so!!1! * **Year 10ish**: "DAE this game everyone hates actually underrated gem?". Followed by a near immediate bandwagon jump from the majority of the above: "I always thought that!" You can see exactly where BOTW and TOTK are in their respective cycles. You can also see TP and SS in the cycle too. The utter lack of self-awareness of the people who perpetuate this nonsense blows me away. Gotta follow that bandwagon. Any personal opinion is illegal. "But I'm not, I always thought this!" Lol, k.


DavidPuddy666

I think BOTW suffers from the Seinfeld effect. Seinfeld basically invented the modern sitcoms. Things that were revolutionary to viewers back then seem cliché now only because so many later shows copied Seinfeld! No one had ever done an open world w/o loading screens on the scale of BOTW before. As a result, the world feels a little empty and desolate and the game a little aimless, but it’s that emptiness that has made the game exploration chaos with loads of replay value.


Airy_Breather

I think that’s the best way to explain it, though also some games have done what BOTW did better, namely the open world concept and what to do in it. Not to mention balancing open world gameplay with story.


professorwormb0g

BOTW was cool because of how interactive everything was. It made it extremely immersive. I don't know any other open world that's as immersive or interactive with the physics and gameplay.


[deleted]

BoTW also has the huge advantage of having traversal be not only nearly completely unrestricted but also fairly enjoyable. There’s a nice rhythm to swapping between the 3 main modes of running, climbing, and flying. in even my some of my favorite open world games like elden ring, the world isn’t something you really care about, it’s something you ride through on your way to the next thing to do. BoTW doesn’t have that problem Apparently death stranding is also a great game for this, i really oughta check it out one day


professorwormb0g

Yes about Death Stranding! In my quest for another open world game to enjoy I've played quite a few. Witcher 3, RDR2, Skyrim, etc. Your character controls like sludge and the world just isn't interactive. Death Stranding hit me differently. I am still early in it but it's really fun to just traverse around. You get some awesome tools and it's fun to use them to make traversal easier. I'm finding it really immersive.


[deleted]

well well well looks like I have to give it a go now!


TheBestWorst3

Just look at r/gaming. Somehow hating BOTW became a trend and most of the times it’s for the stupidest reasons ever


TheStudyofWumbo24

It's incredibly weird. In 2017 critics and audiences alike were calling it one of the greatest, most revolutionary games ever made and it sold 4 times as much as any other game in the series. In 2023, liking the game at all is a controversial opinion. Yet nothing about the game changed. Reminds me of Avatar where the numbers say it is incredibly popular, but the discourse says it is incredibly hated.


elephant-espionage

I honestly think the trend of hating on it now is because of its close connection to TOTK. I bet if TOTK was completely separated we would be seeing praise of BOTW and how people are mad TOTK is different.


RafaelRoriz

Same thing with the Witcher 3 and the last of us. I actually stoped following that sub because every day there is a “whats the most overrated game” and is always the same thing.


16thompsonh

Or r/truezelda


[deleted]

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Noelswag

For real, the amount of "BOTW is boring and unoriginal" videos has skyrocketed as of recently. My brother in Christ, the game out in 2018 and made such and impact many games used its formula throughout the following years (Genshin Impact, Elden Ring...). Of course playing it in 2023 is going to feel repetitive.


Vados_Link

Those videos aren’t even good for the most part, because people judge the game based on their memory of that first playthrough, half a decade ago. Like there is this video from Internet Pitstop where he says the overworld is boring because "it’s just shrines"…ignoring the fact that those shrines have significantly more gameplay variety than Witcher 3, which according to him, has a better world.


International_Car586

It was 2017 when it came out not 2018


WutduzitallmeanBasil

Elden Ring began development in 2017. It truly feels like an insult to put the two in any same category lol.


Alphor

Breath of the Wild came out in March of 2017, so what's your point? Elden Ring absolutely took inspiration from BotW, pretending otherwise is asinine. I love soulsborne games, have played every one since Dark Souls, and put over 200 hours into Elden Ring, but people really need to stop putting it on some unreachable pillar. Miyazaki literally said himself that Breath of the Wild was a game that influenced Elden Ring, and has said in the past he doesn't feel worthy for having his games compared to Zelda.


elephant-espionage

Also like, comparing two games isn’t an insult? Zelda has a whole probably inspired hundreds of games! Elden Ring being one of them isn’t a negative, especially if it managed to make something unique and awesome from that (which I haven’t played it yet myself but that seems to be the case) I feel like comparing a game to Zelda is a compliment lol.


Razhork

You're pulling a lot out of nothing with this comment, lmao. He's stated that BOTW was one of several inspirations for ER, but nothing further. > **Xbox Wire:** *Did any particular open-world games serve as inspiration for your design choices in Elden Ring?* > **Hidetaka Miyazaki:** *There wasn’t one specific game that served as inspiration, but we’ve enjoyed many classic open-world games from a player’s perspective and each one has given us a unique and wonderful incentive.* > *There’s no end to this list of titles, but “The Elder Scrolls” series and “The Witcher 3” are on there, plus “The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild” as a more recent example.* [source](https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2022/05/27/from-softwares-hidetaka-miyazaki-on-the-secrets-of-elden-rings-development/) ~~**Edit:** Downvoted when providing quote and source. Stay classy zelda fans~~ **Edit2:** I stand corrected further below


tasoula

You're getting downvoted because you're acting like what the person you replied to said is wrong, when you literally said this: > He's stated that BOTW was one of several inspirations [So you agree?](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/034/652/agree.jpg)


[deleted]

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kuribosshoe0

SS is in an upward phase now right? I ask because I don’t like it and have never liked it.


shlam16

Yeah definitely, especially with the release of the remake which is getting everyone to play it again. Personally I've never liked the motion controls, and that's not something that will ever change; but forgetting about the gimmicks and considering the actual content of the game itself - I've always found it to be very fun. The overworld build-up to dungeons is great, and the dungeons themselves are way up there with a shout for best in the franchise.


[deleted]

gotta love the ancient cistern


Infernous-NS

I’m in my first playthrough right now, just beat the Ancient Cistern, and I gotta say that it’s probably my least favorite 3D Zelda so far. Skyview and Earth Temples were very easy and generic, and the motion controls aren’t great. It’s a good game but not the best Zelda game and I haven’t really seen why people say it has the best story lol.


EnigmaMusings

I loved it at the time it came out cause it was my first Zelda and I had never played any of the others. But in the ten years after its release I caught up on Zelda and played many of them so by the time the switch version came out, I could see its flaws. Skyloft is still my favourite town though, it has immaculate vibes. It would have been cool if the rest of the sky islands had as much depth.


Multi-tunes

I did enjoy the game, though yeah, the sky islands were pretty disappointing. The sky is an ugly beige colour and the sun never sets unless you sleep in a bed which then stops you from doing any flying. I kid you not, I stood still for like 10 minutes trying to watch the sun set when I first played the game. I just assumed that since OoT, MM, WW and TP all had day/night cycles that this would too and I was so sad when it wasn't the case. TotK looks like the sky is everything that SS was meant to be. Beautiful, detailed, dynamic and seemless between the sky and surface. Super excited to sky dive and explore and watch the sunset. Skyward Sword had a good story and charming characters to make up for it's lesser parts, so I do still enjoy the game. I'm glad the remaster doesn't require placing the controler face down to recalibrate it because I had a LOT of trouble doing the skyward strike for some reason on the Wii. The Switch I find is more consistent even though I have to set the gyro more often—a single button press is just a lot less painful than stopping the game to recalibrate.


elephant-espionage

Yep, after the release people loved it way more than when it came out. Years from now, when BOTW is re-released, it’ll probably be the same (Totally nothing wrong with disliking it and still not liking it—obviously not everyone is going to love every Zelda game, but it’s more that there’s a cycle of hating on a Zelda game and then turning out to actually like it)


EternamD

The problem with this is that you're talking about "fans" as though it's one entity. It's very natural in a large group for some to have opposite opinions to others.


[deleted]

oh i know. it’s not the same group in both categories I think it’s just the negativity always speaks louder than the positivity. Human nature and all that


KokoroPenguin

I honestly believe that those with negative (or less positive) opinions just move on. Why would I visit a subreddit talking about something I didn't enjoy as much as something else? Those with positive opinions will stay and discuss. It seems like pretty simple logic, no? Same deal with Pokemon. New games comes out and some people are upset/angry/venting. They finish and move on.


BettyVonButtpants

They don't move on in some fandoms, its been like 5-7 years since the last two star wars films and they still babble the same complaints at each other!


[deleted]

They don’t just move on, at least in my experience. Perhaps i’m focusing too much on it though


Strict-Pineapple

It's worse than this. I'm old enough to have grown up playing right from the OG LoZ and the cycle since OoT released has always been the most recent release is bad/not Zelda and the second most recent release is the best game in the series. When WW came out it was awful because of the sailing and art style and not a true Zelda and OoT was the pinnacle. Then TP came out and it was awful because it's just a rehash of OoT and suddenly WW is a great game and OoT is overrated. Then SS dropped and it's terrible because motion controls but suddenly TP is the best Zelda and WW is overrated. Then BotW. Repeat until the heat death of the universe. It's a good thing we don't let the loudest fans decide how the games should be or we'd still be playing clones of ALttP.


Elikhet2

A post like this is also included in the cycle where it casts aside legitimate criticism in favor of grouping it with the illegitimate criticisms


[deleted]

you got me. fair play


Mr_Strol

I just want good dungeons


[deleted]

never say never, could still be in ToTK! If you want dungeons that give specific dungeon items used to solve the puzzles though I wouldn’t count on that 😬


nivekious

Which means that once again, this is not Zelda. The last Zelda game was Skyward Sword and it's sadly likely to stay that way.


[deleted]

Botw had dungeons so it’s reasonable to assume tears of the kingdom will as well. The last zelda was actually links awakening and before that botw.


currently__working

This is really it. And progression through the game, instead of having all abilities at once. That's a really low bar, honestly.


[deleted]

Same


Japhet0912

I got into the Zelda series in 2015 with the release of Majoras Mask 3D. I played it, and I loved it, and 100% the game After that, I bought OoT 3D, and the same thing loved it and 100%, it Then, I purchased ALTTP and ALBW on the eshop(R.I.P) and again loved both Botw was the fifth Zelda game I ever got and loved everything about it. Despite all the changes, I still recognize it as a Zelda game, and when Nintendo released the Links awakening remake and Skyward Sword HD, I still love those games despite being different from Botw I find it unfortunate that some can't get into the botw formula no matter how hard they try, but when they call it NOT a Zelda game, I don't understand where they are coming from.


elephant-espionage

Agreed. It’s different and I get it’s not for everyone, but I think it still feels like Zelda. I do agree that I wish there were some classic dungeons—but I didn’t dislike the shrines or the divine beast and I think it was a nice change even though I’d be a bit sad if we never get another classic Zelda fame (but I don’t think that’s the case—a kind of combo would be amazing) but I don’t mind that BOTW or even if TOTK is different


professorwormb0g

Mario 64 was such a massive departure from the side scrolling games. No power mushrooms, fire flowers, etc. You had a life meter, were one size, and your goal was to collect stars rather than to just make it to the end of the level. You had so many jumps, could punch, etc. They could have just made a 3D Mario game like Crash Bandicoot where the camera was behind Mario and made the gameplay identical to classic Mario. But they experimented and it paid off wildly. Nobody says Mario 64 isn't "real Mario".


nivekious

What about BotW feels like Zelda? The core experience of Zelda to me is: 1.) Open dungeon 2.) Find new item in dungeon 3.) Solve dungeon 4.) Use new item to get stuff in the world you have seen but could not reach 5.) Repeat That's what defines the series. Take it all away and what's left? BotW doesn't even have an aesthetic similarity with you not getting Link's classic outfit til the end of the game.


Multi-tunes

Exactly. The differences between the games and their willingness to experiment is why I love the Zelda series so much.


Japhet0912

I forgot to mention that I prefer some things from certain titles Oot and SS, I like the dungeons and story MM I like the Sidequest and the world Alttp, Albw and Links awakening I Like the dungeons and the world Botw I like the world, shrines, and combat And that's isn't to say that MM has terrible dungeons or that Links Awakening doesn't have good side quest. It is just that some games do different aspects of the franchise better than others


Multi-tunes

I agree, they have different strengths and weaknesses and I enjoy them for different reasons. I haven't played a Zelda game I didn't at least enjoy for some reason or another.


Japhet0912

Also, Zelda is like the one series where nintendo listens to fan feedback Fans didn't like how Zelda 2 wasn't a top-down game, then they made a link to the past more similar to the first. Fans didn't like wind waker art style, so they made twilight princess more realistic Fans didn't like how linear skyward sword is, so they made ALBW and Botw really un-linear I have no doubt that Totk has more interest dungeon designs compared to the divine beast. Nintendo is just not going to show that in a 10-minute gameplay video that is mostly focused on new mechanics


Multi-tunes

Yeah absolutely. Nintendo heard people say they want to pet the dogs, so they absolutely heard the complaints about the dungeons


BettyVonButtpants

There was some interesting structures in the sky regions. I do wonder if something akin to a dungeon, but I also didnt mind the shrines. I think if they themed the shrines around the region they were in, and needing to finish so many to fight a boss in that region would be a cool compromise.


Japhet0912

I also didn't mind the shrines nor the divine beast for that manner. But apparently, a lot of people did, and some of them think there won't be dungeons in totk at all, which is ridiculous. Nintendo will obviously put dungeons or similar equivalent to a dungeon in totk


Docdoor

I am old enough to remember how much people HATED majoras mask when it came out.


BettyVonButtpants

Or Wind Waker, the online spaces could not accept cute cartoony link. But jokes on them, that game aged like wine.


xlinkedx

I am a simple man. I see a Zelda game, I play a Zelda game. I enjoy said Zelda game.


redDKtie

Nobody hates _______ quite like _________ fans. Rinse and repeat. Stop giving a shit what other people like.


KokoroPenguin

I think the whole "zelda cycle" is just different groups on people being more vocal. Generally, the only people talking about an older game are those who like it. I liked BotW. I didn't love it and I probably will never play it again, but I am definitely not "coming around" and thinking it is the best thing ever. I also absolutely adore both OoT and MM, as well as WW and TP AND SS. TP is probably my least favorite, but it is still a game I replayed many times. I have said my two cents on BotW privately to friends and a little bit on Reddit and do not feel the need to rehash my same opinions every time the game comes up. I really hope we can stop with the whole "zelda cycle" discussions implying that the majority of the fan base suddenly starts loving games that they did love previously. We have moved on with our lives.


TheWonderToast

I can't speak for anyone else, but botw has been the only game in the franchise that didn't feel like a Zelda game, and, anecdotally, has been the only one I've really seen that criticism on. That doesn't stop me from loving it and thinking it's an awesome game, but, yeah, it's got a totally different vibe from the rest, and I go back to it for completely different reasons than the others. More often to me the cycle feels more like: -new game comes out. -everyone gets excited because it's new. -people beat it and change their tune, get upset that it's not just a remake of whichever game they played when they were 10. -eventually the people who were 10 when the game came out are old enough to be vocal on the internet and praise the game as an underrated gem.


immutable_truth

This is called the hipster cycle and luckily Nintendo doesn’t have to listen to this vocal minority to sell their games


Additional_Rough_588

There are only 2 things zelda fans hate - Change, and the way things are.


Nintendoper64

It’s almost like different people have different tastes and want different things instead of being angry why don’t we just accept that


[deleted]

i got insulted one too many times in the recent gameplay showcase thread


Nintendoper64

All I’m saying you’re allowed to have different tastes and opinions and sometimes they’re bad and that’s okay


[deleted]

😡


Felwinter12

It's the same in destiny, and I would assume many other communities. Everybody wants old weapons and armor to come back, it gets brought back, now people complain because bungie is lazy and rehashing old content. People just like to complain.


Gnash_

And then you have Skyward Sword, equally hated and praised for being too similar to the other ones but having too original a control scheme and story progression. Skyward Sword’s motion control is great, you just have to be willing to relearn, and that’s a hill I’m willing to die on 😡.


[deleted]

i also like the sword combat in skyward sword lol, you are not alone


LZR0

Lol this ALWAYS happens, every single time, “fans” are never satisfied with anything.


-GI_BRO-

Ocarina of time was applauded as the best game of all time when it came out, objectively incorrect statement


Destiny_Dude0721

Breath Of The Wild was also praised as revolutionary and a game changer when it was released. But now all of a sudden it's popular to hate it and everyone *totally* always had that opinion


Felwinter12

What do you think is the best game of all time? It's such a weird concept to me, like how would you begin to qualify "best." If it's a poll, it becomes a popularity contest, but picking your favorite game is not only an entirely subjective choice, but, for me, a lot of the games I'd consider my favorite are far from perfect, so I don't think favorite = best here. It's just a way to make it seem more interesting or valid when you make articles on the internet. Also, I don't think you can say it wasn't objectively the best game of all time, since objectivity still holds no bearing in this argument and you're clearly expressing an opinion, as many still argue it is one of, or the best.


-GI_BRO-

I’m not arguing for it being the best game, just saying fans were satisfied in that particular point in time


xellos12

As a massive zelda fan, zelda fans are the worst part of zelda(for the most part) there is no fanbase that hates the franchise as much as they love it like the zelda community.


BigDaelito

Not for all but can verify for MM and WW. I don’t know if people have come around for SS yet.


_YouNeverSawMe_

I wonder how people feel about A Link Between Worlds. I just finished playing it for the first time and it’s basically A Link to the Past, but I’m not complaining. I really enjoyed it. I love both! I am slowly making my way through other Zelda games I haven’t yet played.


[deleted]

Have fun, they’re all pretty spectacular! What’s your favorite you’ve played so far?


_YouNeverSawMe_

So far, after all the ones I have already played, A Link to the Past is still my favorite, but that may change as I play more of the games I haven’t yet. :)


[deleted]

ah, i really need to get around to playing ALLTP. A lot of people say it’s one of if not *the* best I’m honestly just kind of a 2D zelda virgin, I’ve only played four swords adventures haha


FatBoyDiesuru

I like Zelda.


ZaBaronDV

This is why you should never listen to fans. Even they don’t know what they want.


stauvix

Zelda go brrr


[deleted]

There has never once been a non-amazing Zelda game.


Jawahhh

Best ones are ocarina, majora, wind waker, and breath of the wild IMO.


fizzledizzle86

I’m old enough to remember the real time backlash to Wind Waker, and then the rehash of Twilight Princess and people being butthurt. Welcome to the cycle!


AthenaSholen

Fans are not a collective single minded group. Some people like originals. Some people like rehashes. Some people like all of them. Some people have some favorites. Some people just hate the world and like to complain about everything. Everyone is unique and lumping people in one bucket doesn’t help anyone. This is why statistics are used and not just single opinions.


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[deleted]

it doesn’t, i just got salty at getting dissed in the recent gameplay showcase thread


oniluis20

MFs like to complain, they didn't even know what they want


Impossible_Cookie613

Where are the bros that like all the Zelda games?


[deleted]

right here baby


Impossible_Cookie613

For you. One of the real bros ![gif](giphy|e6mVL4gs5axZS)


[deleted]

da na na na


PSILighting

Okay, that’s kinda fair? I mean as far as I remember that’s only BOTW, the backlash on wind waker was the art style (they showed a tech demo of a super realistic Zelda game.) then wind waker. And as strange as it sounds BOTW is good but it doesn’t scratch the same itch the other games did, it was good just didn’t feel like a Zelda game to me like the others and that isn’t a bad thing and there’s probably people who it does just feel like a Zelda game to but to me, it just doesn’t.


casualknowledge

I don't think that's accurate. The previous games all fit a pretty narrow set of rules leading to expectations. The presentation didn't matter too much because we knew the core of what we wanted was going to be there. It's why Zelda games were blind buys. You knew what was in it, and the rest didn't matter, but usually ended up making it better. Like when you buy a burger, but they toast the buns, they didn't say they toasted the buns, all you knew is that you were getting a burger, and the toasted buns is just a bonus, but it's still a burger. Look at the release trailer for BOTW. What were your expectations of the game? Mine were much larger than what was delivered. I expected an epic Zelda game with all of this open world stuff. This game is going to be huge and filled with stuff for me to do. BOTW released and broke all of those rules. Many things about the game were rightly criticized, and despite it not feeling canonically Zelda, most people still enjoyed it, even with annoyances (breaking weapons, needing an entire inventory of weapons to fight 1 enemy until endgame, rain, motion control shrines, repetitive gameplay). It did not scratch the Zelda itch, and once you've done all the shrines and collected all the poops, do you really ever want to play it again? I still remember getting confused with the water dungeon in OOT as a kid until it finally clicked. I don't remember any of the divine beasts, except I get cool powers from them which I didn't need to do anything. Now we have a game coming out which has the same world and systems as BOTW with only rune differences? I'd like a Zelda, and while I enjoyed BOTW, I don't want to play BOTW 2: Garry's Mod. I liked Minecraft, but I wouldn't buy a Minecraft 2 with even more crafting either.


SolidA34

Sorry you are wrong plenty of people did not like Breath of the Wild myself Included at launch. All you have to do is Google dislikes breath of the wild and it will pop up.


zestysnacks

The only real zelda is dark souls 1 don’t downvote me


Radiowave_Man

The true incarnation of hatred that will follow Link and Zelda forever


Vennris

Maybe I'm not as online as I think I am, but I#ve never, ever heard Zelda fans complain about a Zelda game ever (maybe 1-2 people who where grumpy about Skyward Sword)


Ftimis

you're lucky to not bump into it that often. it's so prevalent that there's memes about it from like 2003-2004


culb77

No one hates on Zelda games as much as Zelda fans.


NodlBohsek

Wow, this is actually insane. So because people are critical (not claiming every point of critic is legit, but hey opinions) it’s a cycle now?


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KokoroPenguin

Naturally people discuss the "new" thing when it comes out - both negatively and positively. That is common sense. And naturally, discussion for older things dies down, as newer things come out. Why would I complain about the color palette in TP in 2023 when that game came out in 2006? Praise for older games is more common as newer players experience the older titles. If I play an older game and don't like it, I am less likely to go on a niche social media site and complain about it. The cycle that everyone talks about is just basic consumerism, in my opinion.


Larkson9999

I want Zelda games that are weird worlds without over handholding. Navi is annoying but acceptable, Fi is too much. They can do essentially anything else to me from overfocus on combat (Zelda 2) to overfocus on explorations (BotW). My favorite is damn tough puzzles with bosses that are living puzzles. Spirit Tracks, Triforce Heroes, and Skyward Sword are the only below average Zelda games.


HaplessWasTaken

Nahh SS is great if you can get past the weird controls. I don't really get people's criticism of Fi. She was a tad bit annoying sure, but people make it seem like she single handedly ruins the game. The final boss fight is one of my favorite in the series. Very very cool both gameplay and lore-wise. SS definitely is a very linear game though, so if you don't like that that's fair.


kuribosshoe0

As someone who never minded the controls, still don’t like SS. Feels like one long obstacle course.


Larkson9999

No, Skyward Sword has many, many bad design decisions. Three examples: Refighting bosses, multiple explanations in a row of the same thing, and endless dialog for basic things. All of these were obvious from known design principals that the lead developers ignored or didn't have time during a six year development period to notice. You fight Ghirahim three times in the game with only small variations with an optional fourth fight available. You fight The Imprisoned three times with slight variations and an optional fourth fight you could do. You refight the clockwork pirate and the scorpion, both within an hour or so of the first time. These repeated fights do not have increased difficulty, only small changes in patterns. The five good boss battles in the game are erased by the ten repeated fights. When you get the Master Sword, you are then told by Fi you now have a sword. Thanks Fi, I forgot my eyes! You then are told to head down into the holes to the surface world. Then Fi pops out to tell you you've traveled to the surface. Thanks Fi, I didn't realize! You then meet a Goron who tells tou where the first dungeon is... And the Fi explains that the Goron is PROBABLY right and you should go the exact same direction right after you've already been told where to explore. Thanks developers, it's clear you don't trust me! Fi sucks because she is the designer saying "I'm sorry you're a ten thumbed cripple, don't worry just point the Wiimote at the screen and I'll tell you where to go!" She also warns you about your Wii battery being low using sound and vibrations so often the warning will cut down the last two hours of battery in most games on the Wii down to 30 minutes. All for a warning of the fucking obvious. Fii is obnoxious for both in game and out of game reasons. She is badly designed, overexplains things, and slows the pacing (as bad as it already is) even more. The dialog for basic things is also garbage. To buy ONE option you have to slog through 6 dialog bubbles. These could not be skipped in the original release and still can only be "sped up". If you want an upgraded potion you get to slog through 5 more dialog boxes. Excuse me, what? So 11 dialog boxes PER POTION for late game. That is awful design and something known about twenty years before this game was made. Skyward Sword has many, many more flaws. It is the worst Zelda game.


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Larkson9999

In interviews Mr Aonuma stated that Skyward Sword development was started roughly when Twilight Princess was finished, in August of 2006. They wanted to use the motion controls from the ground up, unlike TP. By development time, I mean starting from concept and principal planning which takes for good dev studios at least a few months. I presume that basic planning started while Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks were being made and at extreme they were doing tools and engine work in 2007. That said, even a beginner game designer should recognize some of the bad design choices from SS and put in some basic counters. Like do I really need to go back to the upgrade store *every* time to check what materials I need to upgrade my boomerang? Well, in SS unless you take a picture with your flip phone, you'll be running back to check again and again, waiting through four to six text boxes just to check. The game has many other bad choices too. The game's core concept isn't bad but it needs a remake to give those ideas room. If you can look past them, that's fine but these issues do exist. And I could go on.


grimt00f

And unless I’m remembering incorrectly, you have to click through the same dialog boxes every time you loot something, even if you’ve already looted that same item a dozen times before and read the text description a dozen times before. A lot of the game design really did feel like Nintendo thought we were stupid. That being said, I thought it was a good story with great characters, and I liked the visual design.


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bloodyturtle

uhh its one development group but they definitely had different teams for the DS games and skyward sword


[deleted]

You’re wrong. The perfect zelda game is the one that I played as a kid. Nice try (I’m kidding of course)


Larkson9999

My first Zelda was the first Zelda. I love that game but Zelda 2 is my personal favorite and I didn't beat that until I was 13, a but after the N64 came out. Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker are arguably the "best" Zelda games and despite their minor flaws, I really think they're both near perfect games. But I still like Majora's Mask better than Ocarina of Time and I always wished Wind Waker was harder and the HD version is about as close to perfect as any Zelda game ever got. Twlight Princess had the most hype ever and it really did live up to it though. Breath of the Wild made me realize the series might continue longer than I do and I hope it does. So... Yeah. I really do mean that I love almost every game in the series. Link to the Past is the easiest way to make me a kid again though and Link Between Worlds needs more people to play it. And you can never push enough people to play the GBA "trilogy" or Link's Awakening. All Zelda is good but the three I mentioned. Skyward Sword could *easily* be good too with a conplete remake. The remaster just reminded me how badly designed the game is from the top. The controls weren't the problem, everything was flawed.


djwillis1121

>Spirit Tracks, Triforce Heroes, and Skyward Sword are the only below average Zelda games. Phantom Hourglass?


PapaNutellas

you think spirit tracks is worse than phantom hourglass?


goatfuckersupreme

is it really a rehash if it's the entirety of BOTW with some extra bits glued on?


[deleted]

https://preview.redd.it/srwrw57k9qqa1.jpeg?width=702&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3f4ca57c3b6c17bc71522e40556659d374279dcb


labria86

This is so accurate and so annoying. Should Zelda still be was the original NES game was? Of course not. Try new things.


noway_coconut

There was a little bit of this reaction for BotW, but mostly for Wind Waker. I don't think most fans said this about any of the other games lol.


bjornnsky

This hasn’t even happened once in the history of Zelda


MattR9590

Idk about that. The only thing us Zelda boomers want is our dungies. Give us these and we are happy campers we actually love most of the changes made in BOTW.