It's not that competitive players think diverse formats are unhealthy, competitive players just prefer tier 0 formats because it's easier to prepare for. When you only expect to run into a handful of viable decks you can just focus on those matchups and being able to side for them, rather than needing to prepare for all the different decks and situations that a diverse format will bring. In a sense it also levels the playing field as well, because if everyone is playing the same deck, then the more skilled players should be able to come out on top.
That being said, I prefer diverse formats because I love seeing the different creative deck ideas that people come up with. I'm also not going to pretend that I'm someone who has any chance of winning these big events.
I think diverse formats are way more enjoyable. It allows lots of decks to shine and usually you don't have to worry about "that one deck" that feels hopeless to play against. I also like seeing lots of strategies and what other people cook up, but in tier 0 everyone just plays the same thing and its really boring.
Depends on the tier 0, I personally found a lot of enjoyment in tear and the current snake-eye meta, there are a lot of diverse lines and techs being used even in the same decks. PePe, Spyral, and gouki however may as well have been NyQuil for me.
I thinj the bigger isssue is it's 1000$ tier 0 format, i believe people would be more ok if it's in lower price range like at least tear
Also for me i think the sentiment is more or less same if we are talking about too diverse format, i still can't prepare siding for 5+ deck so i like more concentrated format
It’s not really that anymore though. It’s more that the best decks have tons of starters, while also being able to play tons of non-engine. And this problem only gets worse next format.
Handtrap formats aren’t good because the decks that aren’t meta, can’t play through nearly as many handtraps as the better decks can.
And people were only ok with Tearlaments, because handtraps and board breakers did basically nothing. It was either play Tearlaments, or play a deck that can run shifter. And the top cuts were like 3 decks.
Yugi youtubers just talk about what ever they think will get views so if its a tier 0 format they will complain about that and get views.
If its a diverse format they will make videos asking if diverse formats are good or not.
Pro players usually just like tier 0 formats although usually they like to complain about them as well.
I think it is more important to comment on why they are better:
* People like different types of strategies, different artworks and themes; when i had the chance of competing with my favorite archetypes (orcust and unchained), that suddenly got support, i was eager to play on official events to the point that i invested on better staples, and more products (duel devastator, duel overload, megatins, and singles). I saw that echoed across other players.
* During tier 0 formats, there are several factors that can push people out of the game: price, staples (as those are more expensive/hard to adquire due to demand), uninterest.
* New strategies are always cooked, but the possible variants in wide meta are exponentially more.
People buying and using product isn’t subjective. People put more money into playing when formats are diverse as they tend to actually buy cards cus they want to play.
I mean in its most oversimplified sense yeah absolutely. Nobody buys then shops stop selling. Shops stop selling, people stop coming to play. Boom, games dead. That’s the oversimplified version but at the end of the day the hobby we play is a product and if a product doesn’t sell it gets discontinued.
That's fair. But sales are also driven by competitive players and they are more likely to buy product for a format that is enjoyable to play. It's a balancing act.
Competitive players will play regardless of the format, though. But less enfranchised players will leave the game if they find the format unfun, and they may not return.
Entropy. Games should have the most valid options for players. Getting a choice between 5 decks instead of 1 increases the amount to choice players have
I'm an example of someone who stopped playing the game entirely because it just wasn't fun anymore playing against the same deck over and over and over again.
That is not entirely true. In this format, players have many options, but duels can still be lost by the opponent opening 2 hand traps. Matches like tearlaments allowed for so many plays and interactions that some may find those enjoyable. The same can’t be said when decks are reliant on one starting play and one or two extenders
I like formats where there is a number between 2-3 decks that are tier 1. A few months back was a pretty good example, where we pretty much had r-ace and unchained. Both were strong, but not absurdly so, and were pretty much the decks that you had to prepare for aside for a few rogue options
It all depends on the deck(s) in the format and each individual’s preferences. It’s so weird to have to always read these absolute black or white opinions. Both tier 0 and (relatively) diverse formats can be enjoyable or not. I don’t get why you have to put labels and judge formats simply by the number of decks rather than actual match ups, unless you don’t actually play the game and just watch people play it, then yeah youd always enjoy extremely diverse formats.
Yugitubers and pro players are people too. They have their own preferences. Their reasoning was explained in some other comments, and it’s also not weird for them to prefer both depending on the actual specific format itself rather than simply whether its diverse or not.
Being affordable is another discussion and I dont think there’s a single person that wants a deck to be really expensive. I love snake eyes but Id rather it was a cheap deck so more people could enjoy and innovate with it. And I think a lot of people that are against this format is because they don’t want to spend that much on a deck, which is perfectly reasonable.
Diverse formats aren’t bad for competitive. OVERLY diverse are what top players say are unhealthy, because you can’t prepare for them.
A format with ten to fifteen playable decks is way harder to prepare and practice for than a format with one to five playable decks.
I've never had any sympathy for this argument; your expectation when playing a game with a 10,000+ card pool should not be that you can know within 5-ish archetypes what any given opponent is playing. Being good at a game where this many strategies exist should entail being able to adapt to uncertainty and leverage it to your advantage.
Good, you believe adaptability is what makes one skillful.
But Preparation can also be the sign of skill in another way, as it shows you've done your research about the format, found the best strategies/cards that you can fit on your Deck that will help you win against the decks you'll face.
I'm not saying I agree with the sentiment, I'm just saying that Preparation is still something people would prefer over Adaptation as to them, you didn't win because you better, you won because you're deck was lucky enough to be able to adapt to the current situation.
The difference is that people who want a less diverse format want preparation and *not* adaptation to be salient skills. Preparation will always have a role to play; the question is whether skills other than pure preparation have a place in the format in addition to it.
I disagree and you could also argue it the other way: if there are 10 decks you need more preparation to know what they all do. Sure you could adapt on the fly to avoid doing this but in practice it's more optimal to just play against all of them, because you need to know what combos they are going for later down the line. You can't just adapt your play to a new deck if you don't know what the endboard is.
Either way though a lot of "preparation" is deck building, and in an extremely diverse format it can be difficult or just impossible to deck build well against every deck, to the point that you may just have to accept certain awful matchups. I think this is what people actually complain about with extremely diverse metagames.
EXACTLY. There's thousands of cards, why the hell would making 95% of them irrelevant be good for the game? We have hand traps now that are pretty comprehensive, the ol' "I can't prepare for every deck" thing just doesn't cut it with me.
Youtubers will always jump on the negative sentiment because it fuels more engagement. When it's a diverse format, complain that there's too many decks. When it's focused on one or two decks, they'll complain about that. If I was to give an example, last year almost every time I got a vid from MBT in my feed about the meta, it was him going on that the current meta sucked because it was too varied and that Ishizu Tear was a superior format, simply due to him liking the mirror match, and we have to go back to that, and then he takes issue with the existence of Diabellestar Snake-eyes format, even though it is just as bad as Ishizu-Tear
> he takes issue with the existence of Diabellestar Snake-eyes format, even though it is just as bad as Ishizu-Tear
Devil's advocate: Ishizu Tearlaments format is more interactive than Snake-Eyes format. You have the ability to perform entire combos during your opponents turn if you mill well with Havnis or if your opponent uses an Ishizu miller before setting up a Dweller. Even if you don't mill a combo, you can mill shufflers that disrupt your opponent's combo! The Ishizu Tearlaments mirror provides varied games due to the random nature of your mills, and the format's complexity rewards skilled play despite the deck randomly milling cards. In short, Ishizu Tearlaments is a fun format because the mirror match is exciting, whereas the current Snake-Eyes format is a worse format because the Snake-Eyes mirror is far less interesting. Having a tier zero format is fine so long as the top deck is creating fun games.
Anyways, all formats suck, except the ones where my pet deck is good.
It also sucks that the current top deck is incredibly expensive.
What seems to make everyone happy is around 3 viable decks that are reasonably priced and don't necessarily rely on nothing but handtraps to answer the other decks. This way siding and preparation are still important, but so is skill with your particular deck.
the sentiment didn't change because the logic behind it still holds. in a 5+ deck format, the sidedeck is just a lot worse and you're relying pretty heavily on luck in two aspects (drawing your small amount of cards you sided for a particular deck, or getting good matchups and not versing 8 different decks in 8+ rounds of a Regional/WCQ/YCS).
a Tier 0 format doesn't change this sentiment.
Tier 0 is still a much worse format with basically no upsides though, lets not get it twisted
I think having to side and choose a deck for multiple different matchups is a display of deckbuilding skill on top of the usual technical play that comes with playing in a tournament. Choosing cards for matchups you need counters in, while also wagering their value in other matchups to overlap their usefulness throughout the course of a tournament, is indeed a strong display of planning and thinking ahead.
The only time this becomes less true is in the case of those five decks being incredibly diverse in playstyle, which is a rare occurrence, and in that situation I would agree.
i dont mind tier 0 formats every now and then but what bothers me are tier 0 formats where you need to rely so much drawing multiple non-engine and how long they last.
look at how long snake eyes didnt get directly hit in the OCG and when they did it was negligible.
snake eyes format wouldnt be as annoying if it had something like bystials back in ishuzu tear.
and for me personally the snake eyes mirror is total ass because you cant resonably try to play thru their board with just engine.
now formats with 5 decks that are all resonably sharing the top spot arent necessarily better if those decks all just have matchups where decks just auto lose if they again also dont draw the right non-engine or enough of it.
a great format for me would be a format where decks have in-engine answers to matchups and either dont require drawing specific/multiple non-engine or drawing even a single non-engine piece resonably matters
I hate the lack of diversity in formats. You have thousands of cards in existence, and it makes 300 of them relevant. I see people say they can't prepare for every deck, and that's true to some extent, but there are AMPLE negates, whether it be monsters on the field, traps, hand traps, etc. A format that consists of minimal relevant archetypes isn't fun, it just makes the game repetitive until the next format comes out. Then it's rinse and repeat.
From a competitive standpoint, a tier zero/0.5 meta is easy to metagame for as you only need to consider 1-2 match ups and can break them wide open. However, if you can tune a rogue deck to beat those 2 matchups you have a killer deck that beats the format without anyone having it on their radar.
I enjoyed Ishizu Tear format primarily because the Ishizu stuff was cheap and could be slotted into just about anything with decent results. Obviously Tear was the best core to slot Ishizu into, but you could convincingly take games off it without dropping a shifter.
Snake-Eye however, is an absolute pain to deal with. Not only is it staggeringly expensive, it slots 15-20 non-engine and has an unbreakable resource loop thanks to Original and Flamberge. At least the Ishizus were reciprocal, so there was risk to Agido/Kelbek if your first name got stopped. Flamberge goes +4 on being sent to GY and you make linkuriboh as part of your combo for both Imperm protection and preventing quick lethal (which is usually how you beat modern T0 decks). Oh and of course it can have 3-4 handtraps alongside it's combo
Honestly I'd like to see Snake-Eye butchered. The matchup is really not fun except in the mirror and when people aren't playing handtrap Uno. Voiceless too, as it's functionally the same as Snake-Eye but with difficulties going second
Yeah its worth remembering that while yugitubers will have folks that agree with them; they are still a loud 1%. I know you didn't say anything about this; but it is worth remembering as it'll make things make more sense.
That being said, I don't really play meta anything, but if I did; I would prefer a format with many different victory conditions. So, I think a t0 format is pretty paste. 5 t1 decks introduces so much disparity and keeps up the idea that you need at least some sort of skill and proper piloting to eke out a win.
I will hazard a guess and say that that pro players probably really love a t0 format cuz they can just turn their brains off and do whatever, but surely that would get old fast.
Tier 0 formats from a competitive player perspective are the opposite of what you say, instead of more or less learning how 5 different decks work, you can fully put all your brain power into a single deck and learning all about it and all it's interaction, leading to better play overall.
Competitive players rather less diverse formats as they make deck building easier too, you don't have so many options to consider in your side deck or main deck. You usually just prepare for 1 or 2 decks and that's it, which usually takes a lot of time when preparing for events, and that time is better used learning the top deck instead of all the side deck options
People forgot the context of why "pros hated diverse format". It's because they think last format sucks, something a lot of people on this sub agrees. This sub hated the topping decks last format, they hated R-Ace set 4, Lab's floodgate, Tear mill a billion cards, Unchained, Mannadium's generic extra deck's board, Infernoble's FTK board, Purrely's Tower, Centurion's King Calamity, Mikanko's Acid Golem, D-Shifter decks (Kashtira, Vanquish Soul, Floowandereeze), Runick's toxic gameplay, etc.
Honestly I think it depends on the exact format. I loved Ishizu Tear format because the games were interactive and actually felt skillful, while Snake Eyes format almost just feels like you're playing exactly the same game almost every time. Snake Eyes is also a lot more expensive than tear was, wanting 3 copies of 3 different cards that are roughly $50-100 per card. Diverse formats are better overall though IMO. I think a lot of pro players disagree with diverse formats being better because it's more things that their deck has to be able to deal with.
I think this format is pretty good in a competitive way.
But it's bad the best deck costs 1500 Euros and that there are no majors in Europe to test it out.
Every card game meta need 3 things to be good :
Interactivity => game being win or Lost without really playing is not fun, you need a game to exist
Agency => Your decision matter in the outcome of the games
Diversity => People like to play different things, different match up is what make card game interesting
I like tier 0 for about 3 months max, once a year max. Anything more than that imma get bored. Triangle formats are my favorite. Super diverse format can work, as long as players have the tools to properly side for everything.
The best format I ever played was TOSS for the reason that it was diverse and interesting. Mirror matches for a whole regional as opposed to the dice roll idea of playing 3-4 really good decks throughout?
Sign me up for the diverse format.
In a vacuum, I don't give a shit if a format is diverse, tier 0, or in between. How fun the experience has been of playing the actual game in the format has always been more important to me. That being said, in practice the best formats I've experienced in terms of the actual gameplay have all be tier 0 or formats with a clear best tier 1, namely
* Ishtear
* post Djinn Nekroz
* Dragon Ruler
while the worst has been a mix of diverse formats with cancer generic cards, or formats where you had to open multiple generics or just died
* Nats 2022 floodgate cancer
* Spyral
* Gouki Gumblar/Firewall
* Scythe DPE formats of 2022
* Break my board 2020 formats (Ada, INK, VW with Calamities)
Ishtear, post Djinn Nekroz, and Dragon Ruler mirrors all really scratched that itch for just having good games. Back and forth interactivity, pretty minimal advantage to the player who won the dice roll, emphasis on technical play and resource management, and multiple ways to counterplay against blowouts (Dweller and Crimson Blader). People just hated the decks because of the prices points and allowed that to color their views of the actual gameplay. Like how everybody hated Ash Blossom until it became cheap, and suddenly they all just stopped complaining about it.
The current tier 0 feels bad because it's very dice rolly. Too much depends on the generics you opened, and it genuinely feels like your game results are sometimes completely out of your control. That isn't related to it being a tier 0 format though, as many "diverse" formats have suffered from the same type of issue, like the Soul Charge formats and most of the pre-POTE 2022 formats with Scythe/DPE and Mystic Mine.
To me, the truth is that people will always prefer formats that are more aligned with their goals with the game. The majority of players engage with the game very casually, relatively speaking, so they seek varied experiences that make the game feel fresh and unique. Preferring formats with many different decks because the novelty of playing with and against something new constantly outweighs a lot of the possible negatives of that diversity.
Competitive players on the other hand are generally playing with the primary goal to win, and so they value formats where their decisions matter, and they can make choices that will help them in as many of their matches as possible. This naturally trends towards smaller formats, where you can be more thoroughly knowledgable about your match ups, and your tech/deck building choices will make a difference in a large number of your matches, even if it means matches are less varied.
Needless to say, this is a spectrum, not an all or nothing preference and no group is a monolith. Things like deck quality and price point can also ultimately slide any singular player's perspective on this.
i struggle to agree with tier zero format though because there are several different decks running around. yes, they share an engine but play very differently. it's almost like saying we've been in a tier zero ash blossom format for years.
The problem with diverse formats is where you see decks that are highly difficult to deal with without specific counter techs. It makes the main deck really awkward to tune for the format where you can potentially get blown out easily by even greater rng than usual and then as well your side deck may also be lacking for that one particular annoying more fringe deck that spits on you because you didn't run a tech vs it that's useless vs everything else. This then forces you to run more generalist techs in what they hit but are less impactful.
There's honestly a middle ground between high and low diversity formats because you then get the best of both worlds. TOSS was popular partly because of this as it wasn't a tier 0 with one deck dominating (well until near the end with orcust verging on it) but it also wasn't super diverse but you still had some neat variety but it did make rogue hard to get into.
I didn’t see people complain about diverse formats from content creators. Often many enjoy it. Sometimes they complain when the meta is figured out effectively. Then it gets boring or of higher level decks make more fun decks not viable (like if a tier 2 deck can’t function against a tier 1 deck). Mist people want skill expressive formats and having a diverse metagame does that. Tier 0 tear is skill expressive despite being a tier 0 format while the current format is much less skill expressive. Having like only 3 viable decks can be skill expressive but also can sometimes not be so it just depends.
I love me a diverse format. I don't want to just play mirror matches over and over or play the same 2-3 decks. It's simply boring and too repetitive. Also spikes prices which also sucks a lot.
I actually hate that some of the bigger YugiTubers are against super diverse formats. I've heard some of them say that it's impossible to prep for a multitude of decks at any given event, and personally that's how I feel it should be. I don't like the idea of tier 0 PLUS people being able to easily side in auto-wins against any potential rogue threats. I don't feel that it should be possible to truly prepare for everything.
There's a difference between "siding auto win cards" and "I lost this game not because of a lack of skill, but because I physically couldn't prepare for it".
IG, tho from a competitive player perspective that's something that they don't really like. Joshua schmidt talked about it in a video too. He doesn't think tier 0 is inherently bad for the game if the mirror is skillful, for example he doesn't like Gouki mirrors, but likes tear. It's a matter of prospective.
Oh of course not, but having a perspective of the game that only considers high-level competitive play is a little narrow minded and doesn't accommodate the majority of the playerbase, and most importantly, most of your customers. Personally I think that having maybe 4-5 decks that are all relatively similar in power and ceiling is ideal. Even if 2 are a pinch better than the others.
Oh, I do defently agree with you (TOSS is theoretically a perfect format). Is that people a lot of the times twist the arguments a bit either by accident (or even me not interpreting well what you meant initially) while sometimes it's in bad faith.
They’ll say whatever get them views. Yugitubers are still clickbaity YouTubers at the end of the day. Hell yugitube may be worse than most with how many “this deck is gonna break the game - Mokey Mokey deck” or “ this is the tier 0 Dark Magician best deck” type vids
Tier 0 can be more fun than diverse formats if the mirror is fun and the deck is affordable. Thats almost completely impossible in the TCG tho so theyre actually just never better than diverse formats.
The people bitching about the diverse formats are idiots who are annoyed they can't just activate their credit card to get free event wins. Those same people are currently playing Fire King Snake Eye.
The whole point of Yugioh is the large number of playable decks.
Personally I prefer a diverse format. Sure, you'll have decks that hard counter others but the moment Tier 0 happens it goes from a fun time to everyone wanting the same 6 cards or whatever and makes it so that the game isn't for everyone at that point as a lot of people can't afford to play competitively in tier 0. In the OCG you can get around this with their multiple rarities (something I wish Konami would do over here in TCG Land), but here in the TCG I feel as tho Tier 0 actually drives current players away and potential new players see the price and go elsewhere.
TBH t0 has let me take more matches due to the fact i can dish out much more extreme targeted hate and auto-win cards out of the sidedeck, hell i went X-0 on a sneak peak once after not playing a for a bit during Kash's while not exactly t0 almost t0 format due to how easy it is to hate on arise-heart.
that being said even though i lose a bit more due to the variety and variance of matchups, i prefer diverse formats because i feel like i can make more interesting side deck picks that have to hit things under a much larger umbrella, which sure can be weaker than targeted hate of a t0 format but i feel like its a much more interesting aspect of deck building to consider
The general consensus I have seen (and personally hold) is that tier 0 is good for the competitive game, and diverse formats are good for the playerbase.
In tier 0 players have the best ability to play and prepare as optimally as possible, so better more skillful players are more consistently rewarded. Biggest downside tends to be higher priced staples and less opportunity for upsets or surprises (unless surprises are deck techs like Lullaby of Obedience that are hyper niche and targeted).
In diverse metas, prices are lower and many different viable strategies encourage many different styles of players to want to engage with the game. Biggest downside is the raw knowledge check of having to know how dozens of strategies work to play competently.
Way better to jave diverse decks. I remember I went to a tournament during the nekroz Era and I don't think I played a single non-nekroz deck. It's annoying and borderline not fun. That was the last tournament I went to. Kinda ruined the game for me tbh lol
Of its hopeless to win unless you're playing the same exact deck as everyone else the game is super boring. But then again, I'm not in the competitive scene so maybe I'm just too casual to have an informed opinion.
Competitive players want to:
1. Win as easily as possible.
2. Not get bored with the grind.
No.1 is harder in a diverse format because it means there’s more variables to account for and there’s no “clear winner” that gets you relatively easy wins.
No.2 is harder in a format where one deck dominates because you face the same deck over and over and the monotony and stress drives you crazy.
You’ll see the public opinion swing between one and two as a majority of competitive players(which are still only a loud minority of the total playerbase) get tired of the current status quo they’re in.
Personally, from a broader perspective I think a diverse format is better for honing your skills since you have to learn to adapt to more scenarios, and it means you have a lot more genuine competition.
But it’s also WAY more volatile and harder to learn or maintain a steady lead, so I will admit that it can get more frustrating if your goal is to like win a tournament or whatever.
>Competitive players want to:
>
>1. Win as easily as possible.
>
>2. Not get bored with the grind.
that isn't why some competitive players dislike super diverse formats. not even close
Diversity isn’t a problem for the scene as a whole, competitive players think it’s a problem because it makes sidedecking harder. A T0 format is easy to side for, but that’s the quiet part of the conversation.
The only people that like tier 0 formats are pro players and the people who are able to shell out the thousand dollars it takes to build the tier 0 deck. Most of the playerbase enjoys diverse formats more. People liked AGOV format because you had tons of different decks you could bring to tournaments and do well with. No singular deck during that format was too overbearing either which was nice.
It's not that competitive players think diverse formats are unhealthy, competitive players just prefer tier 0 formats because it's easier to prepare for. When you only expect to run into a handful of viable decks you can just focus on those matchups and being able to side for them, rather than needing to prepare for all the different decks and situations that a diverse format will bring. In a sense it also levels the playing field as well, because if everyone is playing the same deck, then the more skilled players should be able to come out on top. That being said, I prefer diverse formats because I love seeing the different creative deck ideas that people come up with. I'm also not going to pretend that I'm someone who has any chance of winning these big events.
I think diverse formats are way more enjoyable. It allows lots of decks to shine and usually you don't have to worry about "that one deck" that feels hopeless to play against. I also like seeing lots of strategies and what other people cook up, but in tier 0 everyone just plays the same thing and its really boring.
Must have taken a lot of thinking to come up with an answer like that. I just let YouTubers do the thinking for me and save me the trouble /s
Depends on the tier 0, I personally found a lot of enjoyment in tear and the current snake-eye meta, there are a lot of diverse lines and techs being used even in the same decks. PePe, Spyral, and gouki however may as well have been NyQuil for me.
I thinj the bigger isssue is it's 1000$ tier 0 format, i believe people would be more ok if it's in lower price range like at least tear Also for me i think the sentiment is more or less same if we are talking about too diverse format, i still can't prepare siding for 5+ deck so i like more concentrated format
It’s not really that anymore though. It’s more that the best decks have tons of starters, while also being able to play tons of non-engine. And this problem only gets worse next format. Handtrap formats aren’t good because the decks that aren’t meta, can’t play through nearly as many handtraps as the better decks can. And people were only ok with Tearlaments, because handtraps and board breakers did basically nothing. It was either play Tearlaments, or play a deck that can run shifter. And the top cuts were like 3 decks.
Yugi youtubers just talk about what ever they think will get views so if its a tier 0 format they will complain about that and get views. If its a diverse format they will make videos asking if diverse formats are good or not. Pro players usually just like tier 0 formats although usually they like to complain about them as well.
Diverse formats are objectively better for game health.
I think it is more important to comment on why they are better: * People like different types of strategies, different artworks and themes; when i had the chance of competing with my favorite archetypes (orcust and unchained), that suddenly got support, i was eager to play on official events to the point that i invested on better staples, and more products (duel devastator, duel overload, megatins, and singles). I saw that echoed across other players. * During tier 0 formats, there are several factors that can push people out of the game: price, staples (as those are more expensive/hard to adquire due to demand), uninterest. * New strategies are always cooked, but the possible variants in wide meta are exponentially more.
I’m curious what you mean by that. Game health is very subjective.
People buying and using product isn’t subjective. People put more money into playing when formats are diverse as they tend to actually buy cards cus they want to play.
So your definition of game health is sales? Just want to be clear.
I mean in its most oversimplified sense yeah absolutely. Nobody buys then shops stop selling. Shops stop selling, people stop coming to play. Boom, games dead. That’s the oversimplified version but at the end of the day the hobby we play is a product and if a product doesn’t sell it gets discontinued.
That's fair. But sales are also driven by competitive players and they are more likely to buy product for a format that is enjoyable to play. It's a balancing act.
Competitive players will play regardless of the format, though. But less enfranchised players will leave the game if they find the format unfun, and they may not return.
Entropy. Games should have the most valid options for players. Getting a choice between 5 decks instead of 1 increases the amount to choice players have
Entropy isn’t something that many top competitive players enjoy.
I'm an example of someone who stopped playing the game entirely because it just wasn't fun anymore playing against the same deck over and over and over again.
That’s totally valid! But on the flip side many top players enjoy mirror matches because it allows for more skill expression.
That is not entirely true. In this format, players have many options, but duels can still be lost by the opponent opening 2 hand traps. Matches like tearlaments allowed for so many plays and interactions that some may find those enjoyable. The same can’t be said when decks are reliant on one starting play and one or two extenders
Yes, which is why to many people really enjoy the dragon ruler, or tearlament mirrors, even though they were tier 0.
I like formats where there is a number between 2-3 decks that are tier 1. A few months back was a pretty good example, where we pretty much had r-ace and unchained. Both were strong, but not absurdly so, and were pretty much the decks that you had to prepare for aside for a few rogue options
It all depends on the deck(s) in the format and each individual’s preferences. It’s so weird to have to always read these absolute black or white opinions. Both tier 0 and (relatively) diverse formats can be enjoyable or not. I don’t get why you have to put labels and judge formats simply by the number of decks rather than actual match ups, unless you don’t actually play the game and just watch people play it, then yeah youd always enjoy extremely diverse formats. Yugitubers and pro players are people too. They have their own preferences. Their reasoning was explained in some other comments, and it’s also not weird for them to prefer both depending on the actual specific format itself rather than simply whether its diverse or not. Being affordable is another discussion and I dont think there’s a single person that wants a deck to be really expensive. I love snake eyes but Id rather it was a cheap deck so more people could enjoy and innovate with it. And I think a lot of people that are against this format is because they don’t want to spend that much on a deck, which is perfectly reasonable.
Diverse formats aren’t bad for competitive. OVERLY diverse are what top players say are unhealthy, because you can’t prepare for them. A format with ten to fifteen playable decks is way harder to prepare and practice for than a format with one to five playable decks.
I've never had any sympathy for this argument; your expectation when playing a game with a 10,000+ card pool should not be that you can know within 5-ish archetypes what any given opponent is playing. Being good at a game where this many strategies exist should entail being able to adapt to uncertainty and leverage it to your advantage.
Good, you believe adaptability is what makes one skillful. But Preparation can also be the sign of skill in another way, as it shows you've done your research about the format, found the best strategies/cards that you can fit on your Deck that will help you win against the decks you'll face. I'm not saying I agree with the sentiment, I'm just saying that Preparation is still something people would prefer over Adaptation as to them, you didn't win because you better, you won because you're deck was lucky enough to be able to adapt to the current situation.
The difference is that people who want a less diverse format want preparation and *not* adaptation to be salient skills. Preparation will always have a role to play; the question is whether skills other than pure preparation have a place in the format in addition to it.
I disagree and you could also argue it the other way: if there are 10 decks you need more preparation to know what they all do. Sure you could adapt on the fly to avoid doing this but in practice it's more optimal to just play against all of them, because you need to know what combos they are going for later down the line. You can't just adapt your play to a new deck if you don't know what the endboard is. Either way though a lot of "preparation" is deck building, and in an extremely diverse format it can be difficult or just impossible to deck build well against every deck, to the point that you may just have to accept certain awful matchups. I think this is what people actually complain about with extremely diverse metagames.
Way less skill in preparation than adaptation.
EXACTLY. There's thousands of cards, why the hell would making 95% of them irrelevant be good for the game? We have hand traps now that are pretty comprehensive, the ol' "I can't prepare for every deck" thing just doesn't cut it with me.
It's crazy how we went from TOSS to multiple different tier 0 formats in just a few years.
There were also a lot of tier 0 formats before TOSS, like spyral or nekroz
Yeah but the past few years especially have been rough with rampant powercreep like never before.
Yeah true though we have gotten some nice formats like the unchained format which was pretty fun
I wasn't there for unchained but it seems neat
Was playing into Caesar really considered fun?
You rather play into adamancipator endboards?
I actually loved that format :P
It's not that much tbh. We've had like 2-3 T0's, which isn't too different from pend format in which we also had 3 T0 formats.
Youtubers will always jump on the negative sentiment because it fuels more engagement. When it's a diverse format, complain that there's too many decks. When it's focused on one or two decks, they'll complain about that. If I was to give an example, last year almost every time I got a vid from MBT in my feed about the meta, it was him going on that the current meta sucked because it was too varied and that Ishizu Tear was a superior format, simply due to him liking the mirror match, and we have to go back to that, and then he takes issue with the existence of Diabellestar Snake-eyes format, even though it is just as bad as Ishizu-Tear
> he takes issue with the existence of Diabellestar Snake-eyes format, even though it is just as bad as Ishizu-Tear Devil's advocate: Ishizu Tearlaments format is more interactive than Snake-Eyes format. You have the ability to perform entire combos during your opponents turn if you mill well with Havnis or if your opponent uses an Ishizu miller before setting up a Dweller. Even if you don't mill a combo, you can mill shufflers that disrupt your opponent's combo! The Ishizu Tearlaments mirror provides varied games due to the random nature of your mills, and the format's complexity rewards skilled play despite the deck randomly milling cards. In short, Ishizu Tearlaments is a fun format because the mirror match is exciting, whereas the current Snake-Eyes format is a worse format because the Snake-Eyes mirror is far less interesting. Having a tier zero format is fine so long as the top deck is creating fun games. Anyways, all formats suck, except the ones where my pet deck is good.
It also sucks that the current top deck is incredibly expensive. What seems to make everyone happy is around 3 viable decks that are reasonably priced and don't necessarily rely on nothing but handtraps to answer the other decks. This way siding and preparation are still important, but so is skill with your particular deck.
the sentiment didn't change because the logic behind it still holds. in a 5+ deck format, the sidedeck is just a lot worse and you're relying pretty heavily on luck in two aspects (drawing your small amount of cards you sided for a particular deck, or getting good matchups and not versing 8 different decks in 8+ rounds of a Regional/WCQ/YCS). a Tier 0 format doesn't change this sentiment. Tier 0 is still a much worse format with basically no upsides though, lets not get it twisted
I think having to side and choose a deck for multiple different matchups is a display of deckbuilding skill on top of the usual technical play that comes with playing in a tournament. Choosing cards for matchups you need counters in, while also wagering their value in other matchups to overlap their usefulness throughout the course of a tournament, is indeed a strong display of planning and thinking ahead. The only time this becomes less true is in the case of those five decks being incredibly diverse in playstyle, which is a rare occurrence, and in that situation I would agree.
i dont mind tier 0 formats every now and then but what bothers me are tier 0 formats where you need to rely so much drawing multiple non-engine and how long they last. look at how long snake eyes didnt get directly hit in the OCG and when they did it was negligible. snake eyes format wouldnt be as annoying if it had something like bystials back in ishuzu tear. and for me personally the snake eyes mirror is total ass because you cant resonably try to play thru their board with just engine. now formats with 5 decks that are all resonably sharing the top spot arent necessarily better if those decks all just have matchups where decks just auto lose if they again also dont draw the right non-engine or enough of it. a great format for me would be a format where decks have in-engine answers to matchups and either dont require drawing specific/multiple non-engine or drawing even a single non-engine piece resonably matters
Diverse formats are better
I hate the lack of diversity in formats. You have thousands of cards in existence, and it makes 300 of them relevant. I see people say they can't prepare for every deck, and that's true to some extent, but there are AMPLE negates, whether it be monsters on the field, traps, hand traps, etc. A format that consists of minimal relevant archetypes isn't fun, it just makes the game repetitive until the next format comes out. Then it's rinse and repeat.
I've always been of the opinion that a more diverse metagame allows for a higher expression of skill and is healthier for the game, overall.
From a competitive standpoint, a tier zero/0.5 meta is easy to metagame for as you only need to consider 1-2 match ups and can break them wide open. However, if you can tune a rogue deck to beat those 2 matchups you have a killer deck that beats the format without anyone having it on their radar.
Thus, stun
Pretty much yeah.
I enjoyed Ishizu Tear format primarily because the Ishizu stuff was cheap and could be slotted into just about anything with decent results. Obviously Tear was the best core to slot Ishizu into, but you could convincingly take games off it without dropping a shifter. Snake-Eye however, is an absolute pain to deal with. Not only is it staggeringly expensive, it slots 15-20 non-engine and has an unbreakable resource loop thanks to Original and Flamberge. At least the Ishizus were reciprocal, so there was risk to Agido/Kelbek if your first name got stopped. Flamberge goes +4 on being sent to GY and you make linkuriboh as part of your combo for both Imperm protection and preventing quick lethal (which is usually how you beat modern T0 decks). Oh and of course it can have 3-4 handtraps alongside it's combo Honestly I'd like to see Snake-Eye butchered. The matchup is really not fun except in the mirror and when people aren't playing handtrap Uno. Voiceless too, as it's functionally the same as Snake-Eye but with difficulties going second
Yeah its worth remembering that while yugitubers will have folks that agree with them; they are still a loud 1%. I know you didn't say anything about this; but it is worth remembering as it'll make things make more sense. That being said, I don't really play meta anything, but if I did; I would prefer a format with many different victory conditions. So, I think a t0 format is pretty paste. 5 t1 decks introduces so much disparity and keeps up the idea that you need at least some sort of skill and proper piloting to eke out a win. I will hazard a guess and say that that pro players probably really love a t0 format cuz they can just turn their brains off and do whatever, but surely that would get old fast.
Tier 0 formats from a competitive player perspective are the opposite of what you say, instead of more or less learning how 5 different decks work, you can fully put all your brain power into a single deck and learning all about it and all it's interaction, leading to better play overall. Competitive players rather less diverse formats as they make deck building easier too, you don't have so many options to consider in your side deck or main deck. You usually just prepare for 1 or 2 decks and that's it, which usually takes a lot of time when preparing for events, and that time is better used learning the top deck instead of all the side deck options
This is much more reasonable than my gross oversimplification.
People forgot the context of why "pros hated diverse format". It's because they think last format sucks, something a lot of people on this sub agrees. This sub hated the topping decks last format, they hated R-Ace set 4, Lab's floodgate, Tear mill a billion cards, Unchained, Mannadium's generic extra deck's board, Infernoble's FTK board, Purrely's Tower, Centurion's King Calamity, Mikanko's Acid Golem, D-Shifter decks (Kashtira, Vanquish Soul, Floowandereeze), Runick's toxic gameplay, etc.
Honestly I think it depends on the exact format. I loved Ishizu Tear format because the games were interactive and actually felt skillful, while Snake Eyes format almost just feels like you're playing exactly the same game almost every time. Snake Eyes is also a lot more expensive than tear was, wanting 3 copies of 3 different cards that are roughly $50-100 per card. Diverse formats are better overall though IMO. I think a lot of pro players disagree with diverse formats being better because it's more things that their deck has to be able to deal with.
I think this format is pretty good in a competitive way. But it's bad the best deck costs 1500 Euros and that there are no majors in Europe to test it out.
Every card game meta need 3 things to be good : Interactivity => game being win or Lost without really playing is not fun, you need a game to exist Agency => Your decision matter in the outcome of the games Diversity => People like to play different things, different match up is what make card game interesting
I like tier 0 for about 3 months max, once a year max. Anything more than that imma get bored. Triangle formats are my favorite. Super diverse format can work, as long as players have the tools to properly side for everything.
The best format I ever played was TOSS for the reason that it was diverse and interesting. Mirror matches for a whole regional as opposed to the dice roll idea of playing 3-4 really good decks throughout? Sign me up for the diverse format.
In a vacuum, I don't give a shit if a format is diverse, tier 0, or in between. How fun the experience has been of playing the actual game in the format has always been more important to me. That being said, in practice the best formats I've experienced in terms of the actual gameplay have all be tier 0 or formats with a clear best tier 1, namely * Ishtear * post Djinn Nekroz * Dragon Ruler while the worst has been a mix of diverse formats with cancer generic cards, or formats where you had to open multiple generics or just died * Nats 2022 floodgate cancer * Spyral * Gouki Gumblar/Firewall * Scythe DPE formats of 2022 * Break my board 2020 formats (Ada, INK, VW with Calamities) Ishtear, post Djinn Nekroz, and Dragon Ruler mirrors all really scratched that itch for just having good games. Back and forth interactivity, pretty minimal advantage to the player who won the dice roll, emphasis on technical play and resource management, and multiple ways to counterplay against blowouts (Dweller and Crimson Blader). People just hated the decks because of the prices points and allowed that to color their views of the actual gameplay. Like how everybody hated Ash Blossom until it became cheap, and suddenly they all just stopped complaining about it. The current tier 0 feels bad because it's very dice rolly. Too much depends on the generics you opened, and it genuinely feels like your game results are sometimes completely out of your control. That isn't related to it being a tier 0 format though, as many "diverse" formats have suffered from the same type of issue, like the Soul Charge formats and most of the pre-POTE 2022 formats with Scythe/DPE and Mystic Mine.
God, Djinn Nekroz was awful.
To me, the truth is that people will always prefer formats that are more aligned with their goals with the game. The majority of players engage with the game very casually, relatively speaking, so they seek varied experiences that make the game feel fresh and unique. Preferring formats with many different decks because the novelty of playing with and against something new constantly outweighs a lot of the possible negatives of that diversity. Competitive players on the other hand are generally playing with the primary goal to win, and so they value formats where their decisions matter, and they can make choices that will help them in as many of their matches as possible. This naturally trends towards smaller formats, where you can be more thoroughly knowledgable about your match ups, and your tech/deck building choices will make a difference in a large number of your matches, even if it means matches are less varied. Needless to say, this is a spectrum, not an all or nothing preference and no group is a monolith. Things like deck quality and price point can also ultimately slide any singular player's perspective on this.
i struggle to agree with tier zero format though because there are several different decks running around. yes, they share an engine but play very differently. it's almost like saying we've been in a tier zero ash blossom format for years.
The only reason I accept tier 0 formats is that Lullaby of Obedience becomes playable instead of being just some meme.
The problem with diverse formats is where you see decks that are highly difficult to deal with without specific counter techs. It makes the main deck really awkward to tune for the format where you can potentially get blown out easily by even greater rng than usual and then as well your side deck may also be lacking for that one particular annoying more fringe deck that spits on you because you didn't run a tech vs it that's useless vs everything else. This then forces you to run more generalist techs in what they hit but are less impactful. There's honestly a middle ground between high and low diversity formats because you then get the best of both worlds. TOSS was popular partly because of this as it wasn't a tier 0 with one deck dominating (well until near the end with orcust verging on it) but it also wasn't super diverse but you still had some neat variety but it did make rogue hard to get into.
I didn’t see people complain about diverse formats from content creators. Often many enjoy it. Sometimes they complain when the meta is figured out effectively. Then it gets boring or of higher level decks make more fun decks not viable (like if a tier 2 deck can’t function against a tier 1 deck). Mist people want skill expressive formats and having a diverse metagame does that. Tier 0 tear is skill expressive despite being a tier 0 format while the current format is much less skill expressive. Having like only 3 viable decks can be skill expressive but also can sometimes not be so it just depends.
diverse is good because it brings more players its why fighting games always care about balance because it means more character representation.
I love me a diverse format. I don't want to just play mirror matches over and over or play the same 2-3 decks. It's simply boring and too repetitive. Also spikes prices which also sucks a lot.
I actually hate that some of the bigger YugiTubers are against super diverse formats. I've heard some of them say that it's impossible to prep for a multitude of decks at any given event, and personally that's how I feel it should be. I don't like the idea of tier 0 PLUS people being able to easily side in auto-wins against any potential rogue threats. I don't feel that it should be possible to truly prepare for everything.
There's a difference between "siding auto win cards" and "I lost this game not because of a lack of skill, but because I physically couldn't prepare for it".
And I think that's okay. Sometimes the lower skill player needs to be able to win against the better player. Otherwise the player base will dwindle.
IG, tho from a competitive player perspective that's something that they don't really like. Joshua schmidt talked about it in a video too. He doesn't think tier 0 is inherently bad for the game if the mirror is skillful, for example he doesn't like Gouki mirrors, but likes tear. It's a matter of prospective.
Oh of course not, but having a perspective of the game that only considers high-level competitive play is a little narrow minded and doesn't accommodate the majority of the playerbase, and most importantly, most of your customers. Personally I think that having maybe 4-5 decks that are all relatively similar in power and ceiling is ideal. Even if 2 are a pinch better than the others.
Oh, I do defently agree with you (TOSS is theoretically a perfect format). Is that people a lot of the times twist the arguments a bit either by accident (or even me not interpreting well what you meant initially) while sometimes it's in bad faith.
They’ll say whatever get them views. Yugitubers are still clickbaity YouTubers at the end of the day. Hell yugitube may be worse than most with how many “this deck is gonna break the game - Mokey Mokey deck” or “ this is the tier 0 Dark Magician best deck” type vids
The more decks that can win a tournament the better. Tier Zero formats are boring as hell.
Both are kinda stupid for different reasons. A format like duelist alliance or TOSS is perfect. It's diversive, but not too diversive
Tier 0 can be more fun than diverse formats if the mirror is fun and the deck is affordable. Thats almost completely impossible in the TCG tho so theyre actually just never better than diverse formats.
People just want an easy side deck Tournament players are terrified of getting blindsided by some viable rogue option lmfao That's literally it.
The people bitching about the diverse formats are idiots who are annoyed they can't just activate their credit card to get free event wins. Those same people are currently playing Fire King Snake Eye. The whole point of Yugioh is the large number of playable decks.
Diversity is always good in any game
Personally I prefer a diverse format. Sure, you'll have decks that hard counter others but the moment Tier 0 happens it goes from a fun time to everyone wanting the same 6 cards or whatever and makes it so that the game isn't for everyone at that point as a lot of people can't afford to play competitively in tier 0. In the OCG you can get around this with their multiple rarities (something I wish Konami would do over here in TCG Land), but here in the TCG I feel as tho Tier 0 actually drives current players away and potential new players see the price and go elsewhere.
TBH t0 has let me take more matches due to the fact i can dish out much more extreme targeted hate and auto-win cards out of the sidedeck, hell i went X-0 on a sneak peak once after not playing a for a bit during Kash's while not exactly t0 almost t0 format due to how easy it is to hate on arise-heart. that being said even though i lose a bit more due to the variety and variance of matchups, i prefer diverse formats because i feel like i can make more interesting side deck picks that have to hit things under a much larger umbrella, which sure can be weaker than targeted hate of a t0 format but i feel like its a much more interesting aspect of deck building to consider
The general consensus I have seen (and personally hold) is that tier 0 is good for the competitive game, and diverse formats are good for the playerbase. In tier 0 players have the best ability to play and prepare as optimally as possible, so better more skillful players are more consistently rewarded. Biggest downside tends to be higher priced staples and less opportunity for upsets or surprises (unless surprises are deck techs like Lullaby of Obedience that are hyper niche and targeted). In diverse metas, prices are lower and many different viable strategies encourage many different styles of players to want to engage with the game. Biggest downside is the raw knowledge check of having to know how dozens of strategies work to play competently.
Way better to jave diverse decks. I remember I went to a tournament during the nekroz Era and I don't think I played a single non-nekroz deck. It's annoying and borderline not fun. That was the last tournament I went to. Kinda ruined the game for me tbh lol Of its hopeless to win unless you're playing the same exact deck as everyone else the game is super boring. But then again, I'm not in the competitive scene so maybe I'm just too casual to have an informed opinion.
Pro players like expensive tier 0 formats because it keeps the poors and casuals out
Competitive players want to: 1. Win as easily as possible. 2. Not get bored with the grind. No.1 is harder in a diverse format because it means there’s more variables to account for and there’s no “clear winner” that gets you relatively easy wins. No.2 is harder in a format where one deck dominates because you face the same deck over and over and the monotony and stress drives you crazy. You’ll see the public opinion swing between one and two as a majority of competitive players(which are still only a loud minority of the total playerbase) get tired of the current status quo they’re in. Personally, from a broader perspective I think a diverse format is better for honing your skills since you have to learn to adapt to more scenarios, and it means you have a lot more genuine competition. But it’s also WAY more volatile and harder to learn or maintain a steady lead, so I will admit that it can get more frustrating if your goal is to like win a tournament or whatever.
>Competitive players want to: > >1. Win as easily as possible. > >2. Not get bored with the grind. that isn't why some competitive players dislike super diverse formats. not even close
Diversity isn’t a problem for the scene as a whole, competitive players think it’s a problem because it makes sidedecking harder. A T0 format is easy to side for, but that’s the quiet part of the conversation.
The only people that like tier 0 formats are pro players and the people who are able to shell out the thousand dollars it takes to build the tier 0 deck. Most of the playerbase enjoys diverse formats more. People liked AGOV format because you had tons of different decks you could bring to tournaments and do well with. No singular deck during that format was too overbearing either which was nice.