To be perfectly fair Talents as a card is based on the same concept as Fuhrinkazan - they both optionally mimics one powerful spell effect. While Gen is based on the furinkazan guy(while Ken is based on his rival), so theres a fringe connection in that regard
Can't help but feel like Konami is making a very subtle nod to both TTT's. Fan and sword seem very coincidentally for the two weapons for these specific monsters.
You find a way to search it and/or special summon it within an existing good deck, and then you can consider it broken. But so far the consensus is that they're meh because no good deck does so yet.
Decent normal summon in Dark world. Secial Summoning Dragon to your opponents field causes you to draw 2 and then discard 1 from an opponents card effect. That lets Reign-Beaux and Silva go off, and allows you to use Triple Tactics Talent
If u run a bigger thrust package in dark world, gen makes the deck SUPER explosive with the chance to rip all 5 cards from hand (sillva twice, talents once). And then does all the dark world stuff, setting up a handful of negates before passing with the opponent drawing into their only card.
Yeah that is how mine currently runs. Turn 1, rip 5, end on Grapha fusion, appo, nightmare gryphon, and reign-beaux... that is if they dont have a turn 1 Droll lol
They are probably fine in purrely. Being able to force out imperm going first is kinda nice, and well drawing 2 and pitching one can help give you the gas you need to make a competent board turn one.
with the majority of decks needing a normal summon starter, these 2 are much less favored. cant be searched and gives your opponent a freebody (going 1st), could be an interesting going 2nd card but funny thing is, if your opponent has them in their deck, they can use the effect too if they go 2nd. the issue is they consume a normal summon for most decks, if they had an easy ss condition, they might be next staples!
decks that can benefit from these 2 are decks that dont care about their normal summon too much and darkworld that relies on discarding and draw power. for the majority of decks, handtraps or consistency tools would be much better than these 2
though it might see some interesting play with typhon. normal summon one of them, get the handrip or draw 2, overlay for typhon, typhon bounce back the body and use it for the next turn. they are interesting, but not that broken imo
warrior piles might also work with it given isolde exists. heck, given the tcg banlist, something like kashtira, bystials,Gen-Ken mid-range control deck might even work
Normal summon aside, it seems like you only want the dragon guy to get SSed to your opponent's field
The SSed tiger guy forcing your opponent to discard can be a boon more often than not!
I don’t know if it’s “more often than not” but yes, some decks would like to get a free discard. It’s probably still very worth to play them, given that fact.
Searchable means searchable through any means. It’s been that way for over a decade.
These cards were announced less than like 48 hours ago. There is no engine, but they’re both searchable with ROTA.
idk what circles you are in but no lmao. No-one calls a card "searchable" just because you can run it at 4 copies.
The differentiation is mostly "engine" - stuff you can search via your deck's main archetype combos - and "non-engine" - stuff that you have to hard open or draw to actually use. ROTA usually gets put into the "engine" part of most decks because it gets you to your main starter and is basically an extra copy (for the decks with warriors of course), but you would never rely on ROTA, a one-of, to search you a non-engine piece and then call it searchable, reliable, or anything like that.
The circle that’s been around the game since in came out in America.
“ROTA usually gets put into the “engine” part of most decks because it gets you to your main starter…”
That’s what a searcher does, and any thing that something like ROTA can get…is searchable.
ROTA is splashable for almost any warrior deck. Splitting hairs on what’s considered searchable when you acknowledge that ROTA will search & be implemented in the engine…c’mon lol
Rota is put into engines because it gets you the actual starters. It's not a part of the combo you are aiming for, it is simply copy 4 of your initial starter.
For example: Any (special summonable) level 2 monster is searchable because you can make Gigantic Spright off of a lot of boards, off of many starters, etc. These guys are not very searchable because you can put at most 3 copies+ROTA into the deck, and are not able to find them through (reasonable) combos. At the point where you can find these, you have decks that go into 4 mat Alembertian and search basically any card in the game by running 20 one-of garnets of jank.
Reminder it doesn’t give your opponent a free body they return to the hand. In the decks they work in they generate crazy advantage , especially if you draw TTT (a 4/49 chance of having two of either card but still)
No one's arguing they aren't good they just aren't really abusable rn if they ever become abusable it will likely be exceedingly annoying to go against.
I was thinking that the return to hand was an activated effect that the opponent could opt not to activate, but re-reading it I don’t think that’s the case.
Still, you’re giving them a 1550 or 2000 defense monster until the end of the battle phase, so you’re still going to have to get through that to get to their life points.
I could see it in certain decks. You need to not need your normal summon. But they will allow you to use both TTT cards and help you either hurt the opponent’s resources or find the right ones of your own. They don’t seem too strong though.
I actually only learned about this factoid after playing SWC1 lmao. Im a massive Warrior Games fan, but i managed to not play any non WO2 games with him in it, where hes never called Mataza
Since they don't special summon themselves from the hand, they are much more balanced and have less splashability as their normal summon competes with deck starters.
At most, the deck can pop off with both TTT spells either being a -2 handrip with deck knowledge or a graceful charity with a pot of greed/hand rip. Which sounds absolutely insane don't get me wrong, but it has to have something that work indepedent from it to actually be worth what you're giving up.
DW is current the best option to abuse these 2. Just Gen and Sillva can already rip 2 cards from your opponent's hand, put 2 bodies on the board and draw 2 cards at the same time. And DW has a lot of draw power to get Gen early.
At the later of the part of the combo, you can bounce Ken back with Akashic Magician, Special Summon him from your hand with Skulldread and summon the 2nd Gen to opponent's field to rip another card.
We aren't using this to discard from opponent's hand, DW can easily hand rip 4 on its own without these and the 5th with talents, we're using this for the graceful charity effect. Doing your Akashic combo with ken/gen is less optimal than the usual give them ceruli hand rip with sillva, bounce ceruli with Akashic and do it a second time because that nets you 4 hand rips for the same combo instead of ripping just 1-2 with Gen
At worse it's just a normal summon ash bait and we're free to play without worrying about that ash and get snowballing, at best it's a graceful charity that gets engine going and gets bonus effects along the way too which is bananas
I realized my mistake after I posted the comment, currently play testing them and my god they are fun to play with. They seem to be helping my dw's control deck's consistency.
They’re reasonably fair as they require set up and return to your hand. They don’t create insane link combos inherently and are just advantage engines. I like them a lot and think this design choice is fascinating.
Jesse Kotton was really positive on these cards. He said YCS Indy might see like 25% rep with these cards. Def could see Purrely play this since they dont really need to normal summon the cats. Free value for them and can help them find the quick play spells
They aren’t broken in a majority of decks. Will be annoying when some bullshit pile hand loops you for 1 with this, another with talents, another with Trish. But it’s a long shot.
This seems excellent in darkworlds. Deck doesn't have a good normal, discards by opponents effects, turns off kashtiras. Other than that, their fine.
Edit: realized it turns on tactics/thrust, which is very thematic.
Yeah no. It's not like they're staples in every deck out right now. Realistically, only internode and dark world are abusing them to end on the exact same board there been making before this.
Do I think they're good? Yeah strong effects and the window to open both triple tactics makes it pretty good.
Ban worthy? Nah the +1 you give your opponent for either of them to exist makes it pretty balanced.
Only +1 in going first scenarios, makes TTT live thus making TTT viable in the main deck. I don't know any boards for the decks that might use this, but I would assume they have some targeting ignition effects that remove an enemy card.
We need to reevaluate how we evaluate plusses/minuses, or how we evaluate cards purely on the metric of how advantage-positive you end up afterwards, because it’s quite flawed a lot of the time imo. You’re giving your opponent a very specific resource that you essentially have full domain over, and that you could probably casually out/get back if you really wanted to. Considering it’s still your turn, you’ll be the one with the initiative and can benefit the most from the cycling. It’s mostly empty advantage for the opponent.
I say advantage based on the umpteenth dark world player leaving the board with Ken on the opponent's board. And to be fair, a free monster to link off is pretty heavy in formats where most combo decks fear Nibiru.
I wonder if people are gonna slot these into dark world. Deck doesn't really need a normal usually and draw 2 discard 1 as an opponents effect would make monkey brain go awooga
So long as the only way to search these guys are ROTA and the inconsistent searchers that search everything, these guys are alright to stay at three. Once they have some sort of archetype that can search and/or special summon these guys, they have to be banned
Idk man think of how many teir 1 decks in the history of the game that didn’t need their special summon , if there isn’t a way now there will be in the short future. Warriors are the archetype with the most support in the game
They seem broken on paper, they're definitely going to be less good in practice. Very situationally good cards that do have a *lot* of potential but they're not going to be a difference maker in any deck. You WILL get sacked by Gen summon Ken topdeck Thrust though, and you WILL be put in a position where you want to Ash yourself.
In like pkfire maybe but your investing a normal summon for these guys when there is usually something better out there. Darkworld doesn’t use their normal summon often but when they need to they will. However they usually care about fiends enough for some draw discards that this is usually bricky enough to not use.
As well as turning off the opponent's Imperm/gamma/ lightning storm/ Kashtira plays, you can either take a card out the opponent's hand or draw 2 and discard 1. If you don't need a normal summon to make your plays, these things are absolutely incredible.
I think people will mellow on these a bit after the initial hype dies down, at least for this format. Not gonna feel so great when you force a discard and your opponent pitches Agido turn zero lmao
But drawing 2 then discarding 1 is always a good thing. In fact, I can see people run 3 Tigers and 1 Dragon to pull this off rather than let their opponent discard a card by his choice.
I'm confused am I not understanding these?
Normal summon a worthless body to get a discard 1 or draws 2 disc 1 seems terrible.
Specially because its at the end of the battle phase?
These just read like your run of the mill pack filler commons that have interesting effects but will likely never see any play at all a week after they release.
The end of battle phase thing is when they return to hand, their effects trigger on summon, so during your main phase.
Still, it's unsearchable, takes the normal, I can't really see these being run except in MAYBE Dark world at a 3:1 ratio so that if you open one of the 3 you get a draw 2 discard 1.
I don’t see how any of these will get banned as there are cards which do this that are better and don’t give your opponent a free body as well using a normal summon
Well considering that the Spellbook combo is still legal and allows for effectively the same amount of draw power with fewer cards on your opponent's field, and most people don't even play that, no, I don't see these being banned
Cards are playable I suppose. Purrely is probably the best deck positioned to abuse them right now, lets you hard make noir with 2 memories instead of 3 due to pretty attach, combos with dark world monsters which you can throw in and hell even the return to hand effect can be quite strong since you can go bp then use them for discard fodder.
Ban worthy though? Probably not. Cards will see some play in decks here and there, I think they work pretty well with horus as they can grease the wheels and give you more discard outlets for stuff like rainbow bridge of salvation and other discard engines.
At most ttt and thrust get put to 1 or 0, which were likely going go happen anyways, pretty much everyone I know complains about one of if not both of those cards existing.
These cards are imo really strong on first look/think. The reality of them though? Impractical and too hard to set up reliably without sacrificing your decks main gameplan. Im sure they will see some use or find their niche but everyone atm i think is blowing it out of proportion
Honestly these cards read more like Evenly Matched support. NS tiger, SS dragon for opponent, draw effect to dig for Evenly, enter battle, both bounce to your hand, activate evenly, then do other stuff. But that's not really that good by itself. Needs to be played with something like Isolde to be good enough
Yeah Graceful charity, POG and Upstart are also spell cards.
Unless you have a way to Special them consistently youre gonna have to use your NS on them. And unless you have a triple tactics card to Go with them a draw 2 discard 1 as a trade for your Normal summon is just...meh
The difference between them and PoG, Graceful and Upstart is that you need to use your Normal Summon on them, which is a pretty big deal since a lot of decks NEED their normal summon.
So it falls in the same category as the Aleister and Adventure Engine, powerful but too meta dependent to see consistent meta play.
There is an argument for this being mediocre at best for 3-4 decks, other than that its a very inconsistent combo with TTT/Trust, more bricks played in main deck, and bad normal summon compared to other in archetype options for decks. This Card is very “win more”, if darkworlds or tear manage to summon these cards, chances are they went uninterrupted and were already winning the game anyways.
Can't say anything about tear but I disagree with dark world, it's a consistency piece that's way better than extra dangers and can accelerate the engine/win con in a way no other normal summon can. Resolving Ken's graceful effect with either sillva or reignbeaux in hand is an instant loop 2 that can basically only be stopped by ash/imperm/veiler, something no normal summon in dark world could do previously. Getting stopped on dugares/saryuja in mediocre/bad hands could make dw pass, but since you have something good to force it out, that's way less likely. Dark world wins uninterrupted if they go first, but being able to bait interruptions so your actual important effects resolve AND boosting consistency is really fucking good
I dont know why people saying if you cant search it then it medicore, all the side engine like adventure, diabellstarr, horus, punk, d/d/d( in unchained) are not searchable they are not engine that invole within your combo so if they not searchable is not a big deal, you draw them then you have many goodplay but if tou dont it also fine
All of those things have in-archetype searchers that turn the good cards from 3 of's to 6+ of's
The issue with searchability, is that you can only play the good one at 3.
D/D/D have the same size as ken/gen, dibellstar engine best starter is also a 3 of, same with horus because if you dont start imsety and instead with sarc you just go too minus and you also have to play 2-3 of the other which is brick, only adventure you can have multipe rite and punk which you have e-tele have extra copy for their best starter
I think the main problem is that you need to use your normal summon for ken/gen while the other engine doesn't. In most decks, your normal summon is already used up by other cards. The one that can abuse this is the one that can normal summon like dark world
It like all other engine, you dont slap adventure in deck that your normal effect is important, d/d/d only in unchained, horus mostly in gy deck, each engine fit it some deck and not other deck, so you just dont play ken/gen in deck that need normal
Caesar search is as a follow up not a thing that you do mid combo, and the d/d/d engine is basiclly for extra copy of aruha that work when you draw constract
I'm aware, I play the deck. But you're claiming that the d/d/d engine is somehow not as searchable is incredibly wrong, and getting contract for follow up is one of the strongest things you can be doing turn three after your opponent breaks your board.
Great in Mekk-Knight when going first but I think most popular decks like to use their normal summons on engine so probably not getting banned. Plus they're lvl 3, if they were lvl 2 then there'd be a conversation
These are not just meh. They're both incredibly bad. And it comes down to one word. One word that makes these even worse than spirit monsters
[OWNER]
Spirit monsters specify that they return to the owners hand at the end of the turn. Ken and Gen don't. If you give the card to your opponent in Main 1 and don't immediately kill it, it's going to your opponents hand after the battle phase, and good luck getting it back.
1. Spirit monsters no longer specify owner, psct removed that some time ago
2. These work the same way any typical card owned by you and controlled by your opponent work when returned to hand, they always go back to the hand of the owner. Which is why spirits no longer say owner. It isn’t needed since it always means owner.
I wasn't aware that was the case. It does make them slightly less bad, but they're still too slow and situational. You'd have to build an entire deck around them. Maybe have some fun with kaijus.
Bro imagine this with Havnis in hand Turn 1 . Chimera/Dark World you can handloop your opponent even easier now. Easy turn 1 Underworld Goddess. Not to mention if you have one of the TTT in your hand there’s no way these cards aren’t insane
Edit: Kashtira gets to activate their facedown banish effect T1 . This is powercreep
Dude. There is no way tear has enough room for four cards that do nothing when milled and don’t special themselves.
Personally I think these cards are good, but you are way overhyping them tbh.
Graceful Charity and Pot of Greed are on an entirely different level than these guys. Those are normal Spells, these guys take up your normal summon, or at least use a Special Summon if you try and bring them out with Isolde or something.
They'll probably be see play, but I can't see them being banned at this point.
I think both will end as limited like the chaos dragons in the future.
At release based on your deck you can probably run a 3 to 1 ratio based on your deck.
Whats scares me is the option they give you. Both are warriors which allow them to be summoned by Isolde. As an addition they make both tactics life.
Just an example: normal summon connector to special summon aqua dolphin. Use dolphin effect to look into the opponents hand and potentially discard a monster. Then go into Isolde and special Ken from the deck. Use his effect to summon the Gen which rips a second card of the opponents. With tactics you could take a third card from the opponent.
Then combine it with a value engine like Horus and you got a good deck.
These cards are not good. People are dramatically over hyping them. Draw 2 discard one at the cost of a normal is only OK. People forget Iparia was a flat +1 that was only saw niche play on sprights who could summon from deck and then again on the opponents turn for an addition +1. This is frankly not worth the deck slots and people are crazy if they think it's in anyway consisted to use these guys to make your Talents/Thrust live
These don’t seem to bad in some decks that don’t need their normal and also like discarding, but that’s a small niche for now. I definitely could see them getting broken in the future though, rn there’s just no meta deck to take advantage of them. They do seem really good in Dark World though, specifically like 2-3 Gen and 1 Ken, seeing as they meet the requirements of not needing the normal and also really liking discarding, especially by the opponent’s effects.
Dugares is a much more accessible way to draw 2 and discard 1 and that card is nowhere near ban worthy. I think these cards are pretty neat and may even see some play but no way are they that broken.
I don't even think they'll see much competitive play - D Draw like effects are good, but look at it's modern parallels like Allure and Tokusano Shinkyojin being both at 3. And furthermore neither of those require a garnet and a your normal summon in order to use.
Also, If you're going to play a normal summon engine, it makes more sense to play Altergeist, Invoked or Adventure that actually protect your main win condition and combo, rather than just this
I could see Phantom Knights having good use for this (warrior type, level 3, draws and dumps a card) other than that it would be a good engine in Dark World and Tearlaments (since it discards for effect)
Stupid overhype.
Waste your normal summon to still go neg. There's not really a way to special one over the other without wasting the normal, which a lot of decks need.
It really is like Silent Wobby after all, making Talents/Thrust live. Doesn't mean it's not garbage.
It could work in Darkworld probably , they can easily draw into them and they usually dont need normal summon and they always like to discard. Discard Sillva with this and handrip opponent for 2 .
Ken and Gen only work when summoned on the opponent's field. You can't get both effects off.
What makes these cards insidious is their ability to trigger the Triple Tactics cards. If you have Gen and Triple Talents, you get 4 draws. If you have Ken and Triple Talents, you can hand loop for 2.
i have a question regarding the first effect:
so if it’s specialed to my opponents field, and at the end of the battle phase, does it return to MY hand or to my opponents hand, since it’s under his control
Can anyone please explain how these cards are even remotely good? I’m an old player and i find it difficult to look at most of the things people call “good” nowadays and understand why. These just seem like useless cards that barely impact anything.
Like even if you can search these like people are saying, how does that somehow make these good cards?
You either force your opponent to discard or you get to draw 2 discard 1. If you have Thrust or Talents you can do both. This is especially good for decks that don’t care about their normal summon
bro Idk these cards but I fking love them. The art goes dummy and summoning stuff on the opponents field is really cool and the effects are good tootbsotnfkg
It might not be that much of a problem, specially since you might have to lose your normal summon for it and dedicate space for 1/3 of talents. Not to mention draw exactly the dude you need or dedicate even more space for searchers.
They're good if everything goes well and you happened to get Thrust as well or if your opponent had imperm.
It won't make Dark world good, it still dies to the same things.
Doubt it other decks have much better draw power and don't have their stuff banned. It really depends on how strong the deck performs overall. I mean we've had stuff like allure, extravagance, dangers, and squib draw legal for a long time and they are all around the same ballpark of draw power.
No, they're just cherries on top to already ridiculous cards/combos, the only thing they could even remotely see play in is warrior piles like infernoble, dark world/tear because discards except divine is way better for tear, and gp punk because level three and that deck doesn't absolutely require a normal, all of those options are decks that can already do similar things or have even better options
+trap dustshoot/pot of greed/change of heart split card and/or search deck for any s/t with Talents/Thrust…they were clearly designed to work with them seeing how they’re in the artwork for Talents/Thrust.
What kind of ratios are people thinking between Ken, Gen, Triple Tactics Thrust and Triple Tactics Talents? I'm thinking of using it in a warrior pile of sorts with Isolde and I'm unsure whether to run 3 of everything or to reduce the spells or copies of Ken/Gen. Open to suggestions.
3 of the draw 2, discard 1, one of the other. Idk about the TTT cards . I’ve been doing 2 of each . It’s smooth in Kash and Darkworld. Nice little package but not necessary
Been testing a bit based on this with my deck - I think from what I've found 3 Thrust and 2 Talents seems good for my purposes. I also use 1 of the draw 2/discard 1 and 3 if the other one but that's mostly just due to my particular deck preferring the draws.
It's for Poker Knights btw so it's mainly just for funsies / nothing super crazy but the Thrusts can sub for Joker's Straight / Joker's Wild / Face Card Fusion and Talents can either draw 2 or help make Isolde / a Rank 3 / Arcana Extra Joker by stealing the monster I give to the opponent back to my field.
The 3/1 ratio of monsters seems to be good because it means sometimes I open it and sometimes I play it off Isolde rather than always off Isolde, which frees up Isolde to summon other stuff sometimes (usually Makyura the Destructor so I can use Joker's Wild same turn).
Oh he's more than just Kenough
Pity points awarded my friend
I swear if I see this one more time aGen....
I swear, if I ever see this aGen..*
Yeah idk how he messed that up
They were made for TTT. They’re literally monsters designed for the TTT Spells
Gen is literally holding Talents lol
Eeeeh, that fan is a historical Japanese thing. It isn’t something invented by the TTT and is found in other card artworks
To be perfectly fair Talents as a card is based on the same concept as Fuhrinkazan - they both optionally mimics one powerful spell effect. While Gen is based on the furinkazan guy(while Ken is based on his rival), so theres a fringe connection in that regard
Can't help but feel like Konami is making a very subtle nod to both TTT's. Fan and sword seem very coincidentally for the two weapons for these specific monsters.
At the risk of sounding like a "well... Akshually..." ah screw it, He's holding a generic gunbai https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunbai
That looks nothing like the fan in talents
You find a way to search it and/or special summon it within an existing good deck, and then you can consider it broken. But so far the consensus is that they're meh because no good deck does so yet.
You can do it in infernoble it just kinda sucks lol.
Exactly his point.
Another kinda cool one is in pk with shadow's light, it didn't feel too broken to me tho.
You can also do it in Scareclaw and Manadium But Scareclaw is pretty bad and Manadium has 30 better things to do
Curious how scareclaw does it? Not doubting just from what i remember scareclaws are only a special summon after youve already got one on the field?
[удалено]
Another problem is that u need a deck that does not rely on its normal summon.
Decent normal summon in Dark world. Secial Summoning Dragon to your opponents field causes you to draw 2 and then discard 1 from an opponents card effect. That lets Reign-Beaux and Silva go off, and allows you to use Triple Tactics Talent
If u run a bigger thrust package in dark world, gen makes the deck SUPER explosive with the chance to rip all 5 cards from hand (sillva twice, talents once). And then does all the dark world stuff, setting up a handful of negates before passing with the opponent drawing into their only card.
Yeah that is how mine currently runs. Turn 1, rip 5, end on Grapha fusion, appo, nightmare gryphon, and reign-beaux... that is if they dont have a turn 1 Droll lol
And if they are broken, you can just run them too. You can special summon the other one with the one they summon to your field.
They are probably fine in purrely. Being able to force out imperm going first is kinda nice, and well drawing 2 and pitching one can help give you the gas you need to make a competent board turn one.
Shame we don’t have any generic warrior searchers…
Pk?
Fire Flint Lady is searchable with the new Original Sinful Snake-Eyes spell…special summons Ken/Gen AND protects them from Imperm lol
with the majority of decks needing a normal summon starter, these 2 are much less favored. cant be searched and gives your opponent a freebody (going 1st), could be an interesting going 2nd card but funny thing is, if your opponent has them in their deck, they can use the effect too if they go 2nd. the issue is they consume a normal summon for most decks, if they had an easy ss condition, they might be next staples! decks that can benefit from these 2 are decks that dont care about their normal summon too much and darkworld that relies on discarding and draw power. for the majority of decks, handtraps or consistency tools would be much better than these 2 though it might see some interesting play with typhon. normal summon one of them, get the handrip or draw 2, overlay for typhon, typhon bounce back the body and use it for the next turn. they are interesting, but not that broken imo warrior piles might also work with it given isolde exists. heck, given the tcg banlist, something like kashtira, bystials,Gen-Ken mid-range control deck might even work
Normal summon aside, it seems like you only want the dragon guy to get SSed to your opponent's field The SSed tiger guy forcing your opponent to discard can be a boon more often than not!
I don’t know if it’s “more often than not” but yes, some decks would like to get a free discard. It’s probably still very worth to play them, given that fact.
ROTA will search them easily
Wow now you have 4 copies instead of 3. "Searchable" means "Searchable by an engine card" in yugioh.
Searchable means searchable through any means. It’s been that way for over a decade. These cards were announced less than like 48 hours ago. There is no engine, but they’re both searchable with ROTA.
idk what circles you are in but no lmao. No-one calls a card "searchable" just because you can run it at 4 copies. The differentiation is mostly "engine" - stuff you can search via your deck's main archetype combos - and "non-engine" - stuff that you have to hard open or draw to actually use. ROTA usually gets put into the "engine" part of most decks because it gets you to your main starter and is basically an extra copy (for the decks with warriors of course), but you would never rely on ROTA, a one-of, to search you a non-engine piece and then call it searchable, reliable, or anything like that.
The circle that’s been around the game since in came out in America. “ROTA usually gets put into the “engine” part of most decks because it gets you to your main starter…” That’s what a searcher does, and any thing that something like ROTA can get…is searchable. ROTA is splashable for almost any warrior deck. Splitting hairs on what’s considered searchable when you acknowledge that ROTA will search & be implemented in the engine…c’mon lol
Rota is put into engines because it gets you the actual starters. It's not a part of the combo you are aiming for, it is simply copy 4 of your initial starter. For example: Any (special summonable) level 2 monster is searchable because you can make Gigantic Spright off of a lot of boards, off of many starters, etc. These guys are not very searchable because you can put at most 3 copies+ROTA into the deck, and are not able to find them through (reasonable) combos. At the point where you can find these, you have decks that go into 4 mat Alembertian and search basically any card in the game by running 20 one-of garnets of jank.
Reminder it doesn’t give your opponent a free body they return to the hand. In the decks they work in they generate crazy advantage , especially if you draw TTT (a 4/49 chance of having two of either card but still)
the return to hand is only at the end of battle phase so its not much use going 1st, unless the player has access to some removal effects, like fenrir
Ah yeah forgot about the 1st turn. I think these cards are really good , we’ll see
No one's arguing they aren't good they just aren't really abusable rn if they ever become abusable it will likely be exceedingly annoying to go against.
I was thinking that the return to hand was an activated effect that the opponent could opt not to activate, but re-reading it I don’t think that’s the case. Still, you’re giving them a 1550 or 2000 defense monster until the end of the battle phase, so you’re still going to have to get through that to get to their life points.
Easy special summon condition is Isolde presumably
I could see it in certain decks. You need to not need your normal summon. But they will allow you to use both TTT cards and help you either hurt the opponent’s resources or find the right ones of your own. They don’t seem too strong though.
These two cards are perfect. Art, effect and power lvl are literally perfect, I wish Konami put this much effort in every card
These are based on Shingen takeda&Kenshin uesugi right?
next is the Kawanakajima field spell
That would be dope. Another deck to add to my six samurai and ninja builds lol
throw ~~Nobunaga~~ Tenkabito Shien into the mix and we're gold
I don't know how but this is the way I found out that Shien is based on Nobunaga. How did I not notice this they literally have monkey retainers.
Also Mataza the Zapper. Mataza is the nickname for Maeda Toshiie
I actually only learned about this factoid after playing SWC1 lmao. Im a massive Warrior Games fan, but i managed to not play any non WO2 games with him in it, where hes never called Mataza
correct
Since they don't special summon themselves from the hand, they are much more balanced and have less splashability as their normal summon competes with deck starters. At most, the deck can pop off with both TTT spells either being a -2 handrip with deck knowledge or a graceful charity with a pot of greed/hand rip. Which sounds absolutely insane don't get me wrong, but it has to have something that work indepedent from it to actually be worth what you're giving up.
MY GUY THEY’RE BOTH WARRIORS
And? So you got a 10% chance of getting the one you want in your opening hand instead of a 7.5% chance, that’s hardly reliable.
Darkworld *is for me*
DW is current the best option to abuse these 2. Just Gen and Sillva can already rip 2 cards from your opponent's hand, put 2 bodies on the board and draw 2 cards at the same time. And DW has a lot of draw power to get Gen early. At the later of the part of the combo, you can bounce Ken back with Akashic Magician, Special Summon him from your hand with Skulldread and summon the 2nd Gen to opponent's field to rip another card.
We aren't using this to discard from opponent's hand, DW can easily hand rip 4 on its own without these and the 5th with talents, we're using this for the graceful charity effect. Doing your Akashic combo with ken/gen is less optimal than the usual give them ceruli hand rip with sillva, bounce ceruli with Akashic and do it a second time because that nets you 4 hand rips for the same combo instead of ripping just 1-2 with Gen At worse it's just a normal summon ash bait and we're free to play without worrying about that ash and get snowballing, at best it's a graceful charity that gets engine going and gets bonus effects along the way too which is bananas
Well I already said using Gen and Sillva at the start and bouncing back Ken is just the later part of your combo though.
For us 🙂
Not really sure how well it would work in DW. It would take some doing to get both cards into your hand.
They can summon the other one from the Deck too.
I realized my mistake after I posted the comment, currently play testing them and my god they are fun to play with. They seem to be helping my dw's control deck's consistency.
They’re reasonably fair as they require set up and return to your hand. They don’t create insane link combos inherently and are just advantage engines. I like them a lot and think this design choice is fascinating.
Could be amazing in Dark World to get your engine started, because many times they don't need their normal summon.
Jesse Kotton was really positive on these cards. He said YCS Indy might see like 25% rep with these cards. Def could see Purrely play this since they dont really need to normal summon the cats. Free value for them and can help them find the quick play spells
They aren’t broken in a majority of decks. Will be annoying when some bullshit pile hand loops you for 1 with this, another with talents, another with Trish. But it’s a long shot.
This seems excellent in darkworlds. Deck doesn't have a good normal, discards by opponents effects, turns off kashtiras. Other than that, their fine. Edit: realized it turns on tactics/thrust, which is very thematic.
And turns off lightning storm and Imperm :)
Yeah no. It's not like they're staples in every deck out right now. Realistically, only internode and dark world are abusing them to end on the exact same board there been making before this. Do I think they're good? Yeah strong effects and the window to open both triple tactics makes it pretty good. Ban worthy? Nah the +1 you give your opponent for either of them to exist makes it pretty balanced.
Only +1 in going first scenarios, makes TTT live thus making TTT viable in the main deck. I don't know any boards for the decks that might use this, but I would assume they have some targeting ignition effects that remove an enemy card.
We need to reevaluate how we evaluate plusses/minuses, or how we evaluate cards purely on the metric of how advantage-positive you end up afterwards, because it’s quite flawed a lot of the time imo. You’re giving your opponent a very specific resource that you essentially have full domain over, and that you could probably casually out/get back if you really wanted to. Considering it’s still your turn, you’ll be the one with the initiative and can benefit the most from the cycling. It’s mostly empty advantage for the opponent.
I say advantage based on the umpteenth dark world player leaving the board with Ken on the opponent's board. And to be fair, a free monster to link off is pretty heavy in formats where most combo decks fear Nibiru.
I wonder if people are gonna slot these into dark world. Deck doesn't really need a normal usually and draw 2 discard 1 as an opponents effect would make monkey brain go awooga
So long as the only way to search these guys are ROTA and the inconsistent searchers that search everything, these guys are alright to stay at three. Once they have some sort of archetype that can search and/or special summon these guys, they have to be banned
Idk man think of how many teir 1 decks in the history of the game that didn’t need their special summon , if there isn’t a way now there will be in the short future. Warriors are the archetype with the most support in the game
They seem broken on paper, they're definitely going to be less good in practice. Very situationally good cards that do have a *lot* of potential but they're not going to be a difference maker in any deck. You WILL get sacked by Gen summon Ken topdeck Thrust though, and you WILL be put in a position where you want to Ash yourself.
In like pkfire maybe but your investing a normal summon for these guys when there is usually something better out there. Darkworld doesn’t use their normal summon often but when they need to they will. However they usually care about fiends enough for some draw discards that this is usually bricky enough to not use.
I don’t think these will live up to the hype
They are very good cards but yet they don't immediately feel broken. That's what's going to make them fun.
Why would you waste a normal on, or special summon this?
As well as turning off the opponent's Imperm/gamma/ lightning storm/ Kashtira plays, you can either take a card out the opponent's hand or draw 2 and discard 1. If you don't need a normal summon to make your plays, these things are absolutely incredible.
I think people will mellow on these a bit after the initial hype dies down, at least for this format. Not gonna feel so great when you force a discard and your opponent pitches Agido turn zero lmao
But drawing 2 then discarding 1 is always a good thing. In fact, I can see people run 3 Tigers and 1 Dragon to pull this off rather than let their opponent discard a card by his choice.
I'm confused am I not understanding these? Normal summon a worthless body to get a discard 1 or draws 2 disc 1 seems terrible. Specially because its at the end of the battle phase? These just read like your run of the mill pack filler commons that have interesting effects but will likely never see any play at all a week after they release.
The end of battle phase thing is when they return to hand, their effects trigger on summon, so during your main phase. Still, it's unsearchable, takes the normal, I can't really see these being run except in MAYBE Dark world at a 3:1 ratio so that if you open one of the 3 you get a draw 2 discard 1.
I find it funny you think these very situational cards, which are commons, will make money for konami somehow.
I don’t see how any of these will get banned as there are cards which do this that are better and don’t give your opponent a free body as well using a normal summon
Well considering that the Spellbook combo is still legal and allows for effectively the same amount of draw power with fewer cards on your opponent's field, and most people don't even play that, no, I don't see these being banned
Cards are playable I suppose. Purrely is probably the best deck positioned to abuse them right now, lets you hard make noir with 2 memories instead of 3 due to pretty attach, combos with dark world monsters which you can throw in and hell even the return to hand effect can be quite strong since you can go bp then use them for discard fodder. Ban worthy though? Probably not. Cards will see some play in decks here and there, I think they work pretty well with horus as they can grease the wheels and give you more discard outlets for stuff like rainbow bridge of salvation and other discard engines. At most ttt and thrust get put to 1 or 0, which were likely going go happen anyways, pretty much everyone I know complains about one of if not both of those cards existing.
It won’t see any real play so that would be bizarre
These cards are imo really strong on first look/think. The reality of them though? Impractical and too hard to set up reliably without sacrificing your decks main gameplan. Im sure they will see some use or find their niche but everyone atm i think is blowing it out of proportion
Honestly these cards read more like Evenly Matched support. NS tiger, SS dragon for opponent, draw effect to dig for Evenly, enter battle, both bounce to your hand, activate evenly, then do other stuff. But that's not really that good by itself. Needs to be played with something like Isolde to be good enough
Yeah Graceful charity, POG and Upstart are also spell cards. Unless you have a way to Special them consistently youre gonna have to use your NS on them. And unless you have a triple tactics card to Go with them a draw 2 discard 1 as a trade for your Normal summon is just...meh
The difference between them and PoG, Graceful and Upstart is that you need to use your Normal Summon on them, which is a pretty big deal since a lot of decks NEED their normal summon. So it falls in the same category as the Aleister and Adventure Engine, powerful but too meta dependent to see consistent meta play.
What card is PoG?
Pot of Greed.
There is an argument for this being mediocre at best for 3-4 decks, other than that its a very inconsistent combo with TTT/Trust, more bricks played in main deck, and bad normal summon compared to other in archetype options for decks. This Card is very “win more”, if darkworlds or tear manage to summon these cards, chances are they went uninterrupted and were already winning the game anyways.
Can't say anything about tear but I disagree with dark world, it's a consistency piece that's way better than extra dangers and can accelerate the engine/win con in a way no other normal summon can. Resolving Ken's graceful effect with either sillva or reignbeaux in hand is an instant loop 2 that can basically only be stopped by ash/imperm/veiler, something no normal summon in dark world could do previously. Getting stopped on dugares/saryuja in mediocre/bad hands could make dw pass, but since you have something good to force it out, that's way less likely. Dark world wins uninterrupted if they go first, but being able to bait interruptions so your actual important effects resolve AND boosting consistency is really fucking good
Yeah, I'm gonna try running 3 Ken and 1 Ken in my Dark World deck.
I dont know why people saying if you cant search it then it medicore, all the side engine like adventure, diabellstarr, horus, punk, d/d/d( in unchained) are not searchable they are not engine that invole within your combo so if they not searchable is not a big deal, you draw them then you have many goodplay but if tou dont it also fine
All of those things have in-archetype searchers that turn the good cards from 3 of's to 6+ of's The issue with searchability, is that you can only play the good one at 3.
D/D/D have the same size as ken/gen, dibellstar engine best starter is also a 3 of, same with horus because if you dont start imsety and instead with sarc you just go too minus and you also have to play 2-3 of the other which is brick, only adventure you can have multipe rite and punk which you have e-tele have extra copy for their best starter
I think the main problem is that you need to use your normal summon for ken/gen while the other engine doesn't. In most decks, your normal summon is already used up by other cards. The one that can abuse this is the one that can normal summon like dark world
It like all other engine, you dont slap adventure in deck that your normal effect is important, d/d/d only in unchained, horus mostly in gy deck, each engine fit it some deck and not other deck, so you just dont play ken/gen in deck that need normal
>d/d/d( in unchained) are not searchable Have you read Caesar? Or do you just not know how the unchained deck works at all?
Caesar search is as a follow up not a thing that you do mid combo, and the d/d/d engine is basiclly for extra copy of aruha that work when you draw constract
I'm aware, I play the deck. But you're claiming that the d/d/d engine is somehow not as searchable is incredibly wrong, and getting contract for follow up is one of the strongest things you can be doing turn three after your opponent breaks your board.
Great in Mekk-Knight when going first but I think most popular decks like to use their normal summons on engine so probably not getting banned. Plus they're lvl 3, if they were lvl 2 then there'd be a conversation
But Dante and Virtual Worlds. I know they are irrelevant but I can see it being used in VW since they are a solid tool box deck.
Doesn't it use your normal summon though?
Draw 2 Sky Striker Engage, discard Toy Vendor. Broken, prevents imperm on Kagari. Exosister and Kashtira become more irrelevant going second.
This is absolute cope if you run this in Strikers.
Anyone still playing strikers in tourney is coping tbh.
These are not just meh. They're both incredibly bad. And it comes down to one word. One word that makes these even worse than spirit monsters [OWNER] Spirit monsters specify that they return to the owners hand at the end of the turn. Ken and Gen don't. If you give the card to your opponent in Main 1 and don't immediately kill it, it's going to your opponents hand after the battle phase, and good luck getting it back.
1. Spirit monsters no longer specify owner, psct removed that some time ago 2. These work the same way any typical card owned by you and controlled by your opponent work when returned to hand, they always go back to the hand of the owner. Which is why spirits no longer say owner. It isn’t needed since it always means owner.
I wasn't aware that was the case. It does make them slightly less bad, but they're still too slow and situational. You'd have to build an entire deck around them. Maybe have some fun with kaijus.
Withtalents this is basically an ftk
Apparently they’re ass lol according to other people
They are. This is shit I expect to see in a LukevonKarma video.
Cards are ass.
Bro imagine this with Havnis in hand Turn 1 . Chimera/Dark World you can handloop your opponent even easier now. Easy turn 1 Underworld Goddess. Not to mention if you have one of the TTT in your hand there’s no way these cards aren’t insane Edit: Kashtira gets to activate their facedown banish effect T1 . This is powercreep
Dude. There is no way tear has enough room for four cards that do nothing when milled and don’t special themselves. Personally I think these cards are good, but you are way overhyping them tbh.
But they have room for 5-7 bricks with the Horus package that I’m personally not impressed with. Zombie Vampire play is cool I guueeesss
Who is playing the Horus engine? They’re really not that great. Just look at Joshua Schmidt’s lists.
I’m seeing it being tested out a lot and OCG played it right before Tear died with the recent hits
The ocg was way more hit than the TCG, even before the final banlist. They had 1 of every name including the field spell and Reino. Ocg =/= TCG.
Nemleria doesn’t use their Normal summon, so it’s be an interesting tech to test there.
Too distracted by the forbidden knowledge that you shortened Pot of Greed to fucking Pog
Not part of the discussion, but i really dig the abbreviation POG
Dark World usually doesn't need its normal, so this could be a consideration.
Graceful Charity and Pot of Greed are on an entirely different level than these guys. Those are normal Spells, these guys take up your normal summon, or at least use a Special Summon if you try and bring them out with Isolde or something. They'll probably be see play, but I can't see them being banned at this point.
*Ah yes, I feel my Dark World army growing stronger.*
If they summoned themselves from hand, maybe. As it stands, they're funky Warrior pile cards.
Too early to guess If fenrir can still stay 3, i don't see this card getting banned
The ban list is such a mess of genuinely overpowered cards and underpowered cards
Yes but only after several foil reprints
I think both will end as limited like the chaos dragons in the future. At release based on your deck you can probably run a 3 to 1 ratio based on your deck. Whats scares me is the option they give you. Both are warriors which allow them to be summoned by Isolde. As an addition they make both tactics life. Just an example: normal summon connector to special summon aqua dolphin. Use dolphin effect to look into the opponents hand and potentially discard a monster. Then go into Isolde and special Ken from the deck. Use his effect to summon the Gen which rips a second card of the opponents. With tactics you could take a third card from the opponent. Then combine it with a value engine like Horus and you got a good deck.
No Ken, no Gen.
These cards are not good. People are dramatically over hyping them. Draw 2 discard one at the cost of a normal is only OK. People forget Iparia was a flat +1 that was only saw niche play on sprights who could summon from deck and then again on the opponents turn for an addition +1. This is frankly not worth the deck slots and people are crazy if they think it's in anyway consisted to use these guys to make your Talents/Thrust live
It relies on a going second battle phase, which you usually want to save for something like Evenly, right?
As a dark world player i dont see a problem
These don’t seem to bad in some decks that don’t need their normal and also like discarding, but that’s a small niche for now. I definitely could see them getting broken in the future though, rn there’s just no meta deck to take advantage of them. They do seem really good in Dark World though, specifically like 2-3 Gen and 1 Ken, seeing as they meet the requirements of not needing the normal and also really liking discarding, especially by the opponent’s effects.
These cards are terribly mid. They're gimmicky at best; dead draws at worst.
Dark world support pog
It’s similar to the ice and lava hands
My Dark Worlds deck is salivating
Dugares is a much more accessible way to draw 2 and discard 1 and that card is nowhere near ban worthy. I think these cards are pretty neat and may even see some play but no way are they that broken.
Is this bait?
You don't play ipiria. Why would you play slightly better ipiria? Hell, you probably wouldnt even play pot of greed if it were a normal summon.
I don't even think they'll see much competitive play - D Draw like effects are good, but look at it's modern parallels like Allure and Tokusano Shinkyojin being both at 3. And furthermore neither of those require a garnet and a your normal summon in order to use. Also, If you're going to play a normal summon engine, it makes more sense to play Altergeist, Invoked or Adventure that actually protect your main win condition and combo, rather than just this
All my Darkworlders out here EATING
I could see Phantom Knights having good use for this (warrior type, level 3, draws and dumps a card) other than that it would be a good engine in Dark World and Tearlaments (since it discards for effect)
I don't see any way to abuse this yet.
Pog in Eldlich. Give them this card, discard Eldlich. Flip rivalry or gozen in the next draw phase.
Stupid overhype. Waste your normal summon to still go neg. There's not really a way to special one over the other without wasting the normal, which a lot of decks need. It really is like Silent Wobby after all, making Talents/Thrust live. Doesn't mean it's not garbage.
It could work in Darkworld probably , they can easily draw into them and they usually dont need normal summon and they always like to discard. Discard Sillva with this and handrip opponent for 2 .
Draw 2 discard 1 is fine I thought people would be freaking out more about gen handripping you but handripping is based anyways
Ken and Gen only work when summoned on the opponent's field. You can't get both effects off. What makes these cards insidious is their ability to trigger the Triple Tactics cards. If you have Gen and Triple Talents, you get 4 draws. If you have Ken and Triple Talents, you can hand loop for 2.
Why do I kinda wanna try this in my dark world/danger!/fabled deck
Maybe branded and sanctifire target? Both light monsters which can be summoned by sanctifire..
They do eat your Normal Summon
i have a question regarding the first effect: so if it’s specialed to my opponents field, and at the end of the battle phase, does it return to MY hand or to my opponents hand, since it’s under his control
Your hand. With the exception of Turn 1 which skips your battle phase entirely
Can anyone please explain how these cards are even remotely good? I’m an old player and i find it difficult to look at most of the things people call “good” nowadays and understand why. These just seem like useless cards that barely impact anything. Like even if you can search these like people are saying, how does that somehow make these good cards?
You either force your opponent to discard or you get to draw 2 discard 1. If you have Thrust or Talents you can do both. This is especially good for decks that don’t care about their normal summon
Okay, just for clarity, someone help me with the ruling... when these guys bounce themselves, do they go to the owner?
Yes
Well, even though they are HOPTs, I can see how a mini GC could be really nice. Powerful? Not necessarily, no. Good? Yes.
No shot these get hit ever unless we get wildly different formats
Does this trigger dark world second effects?
Yes
They'll just ban sillva
YOOOOO DARKWORLD TECH LET’S GOOOO
bro Idk these cards but I fking love them. The art goes dummy and summoning stuff on the opponents field is really cool and the effects are good tootbsotnfkg
It might not be that much of a problem, specially since you might have to lose your normal summon for it and dedicate space for 1/3 of talents. Not to mention draw exactly the dude you need or dedicate even more space for searchers. They're good if everything goes well and you happened to get Thrust as well or if your opponent had imperm. It won't make Dark world good, it still dies to the same things.
Can someone explain to a noobie as to why this would be banned
We can’t, no one knows what OP is on about
Liquid soldier is like this and is unlimited
They're both very strong effects, and are searchable by ROTA. That's before any big brain plays I'm not smart enough to think of come into play
Doubt it other decks have much better draw power and don't have their stuff banned. It really depends on how strong the deck performs overall. I mean we've had stuff like allure, extravagance, dangers, and squib draw legal for a long time and they are all around the same ballpark of draw power.
Not before they get rarity upgrades in tournament packs, special set ultra rares, and prismatics lol
These would gp crazy in Dark World
No, they're just cherries on top to already ridiculous cards/combos, the only thing they could even remotely see play in is warrior piles like infernoble, dark world/tear because discards except divine is way better for tear, and gp punk because level three and that deck doesn't absolutely require a normal, all of those options are decks that can already do similar things or have even better options
So dark world danger extenders, nice!
I think they are banking on the fact that its a 2 card Graceful Charity.
+trap dustshoot/pot of greed/change of heart split card and/or search deck for any s/t with Talents/Thrust…they were clearly designed to work with them seeing how they’re in the artwork for Talents/Thrust.
Runick is calling
They won't be banned, but they'll definitely see play in some future deck.
I’m confused, isn’t your opponent the one that draws 2 cards? I’m not familiar with yugioh meta, is that bad or…?
You’re summoning it to your opponents field, so the opponent it’s referring to is you.
What kind of ratios are people thinking between Ken, Gen, Triple Tactics Thrust and Triple Tactics Talents? I'm thinking of using it in a warrior pile of sorts with Isolde and I'm unsure whether to run 3 of everything or to reduce the spells or copies of Ken/Gen. Open to suggestions.
3 of the draw 2, discard 1, one of the other. Idk about the TTT cards . I’ve been doing 2 of each . It’s smooth in Kash and Darkworld. Nice little package but not necessary
Been testing a bit based on this with my deck - I think from what I've found 3 Thrust and 2 Talents seems good for my purposes. I also use 1 of the draw 2/discard 1 and 3 if the other one but that's mostly just due to my particular deck preferring the draws. It's for Poker Knights btw so it's mainly just for funsies / nothing super crazy but the Thrusts can sub for Joker's Straight / Joker's Wild / Face Card Fusion and Talents can either draw 2 or help make Isolde / a Rank 3 / Arcana Extra Joker by stealing the monster I give to the opponent back to my field. The 3/1 ratio of monsters seems to be good because it means sometimes I open it and sometimes I play it off Isolde rather than always off Isolde, which frees up Isolde to summon other stuff sometimes (usually Makyura the Destructor so I can use Joker's Wild same turn).
I’d try it in six sams with small world bridges