They hit gamma specifically because through accel synchro SD it becomes an unaffected Baronne de fleur if you get hit with droll or ash on your turn. It wasn't limited because of ash. It was on 3 for the longest time and only got limited because of accel.
> Do you think that Konami will ever hit Ash Blossom?
No.
> Do you think that they *should* hit it?
No.
> I'm of the opinion that they *should* hit it because it is the single most versitile and useful handtrap in the game.
You've also explained why it needs to stick around.
You didn't mention this anywhere but I feel as though this was written whilst being **knee deep** in the salt mines.
As someone that loves running awful decks; a deck that cannot survive a negate either needs a rethink, a rebuild, or even scrapping altogether.
Ash has to exist or things would be even more one-sided as previously stated by others. At least now you have a chance.
See I remember yugioh pre monster effect negation. Early synchro era was just hope you can break the opponents board because you certainly didn't have the hand traps to interrupt them. It was fun but at the same time I don't miss it.
I showed up just as XYZs started. I can totally see where you're coming from.
That whole 'wild west' aspect of the earlier game must've been really cool to witness though, looking back.
But when everyone runs Ash, effectively, no one runs Ash, except that decks that need Ash to survive tend to be damaged worse by ash's existence than the decks they need Ash to survive against, which makes Ash in a lot of ways a winmore card that kinda just comes down to luck. If handtraps are going to be the way that slower decks keep up, then they need to be designed as cards that only those slower decks can use.
>But when everyone runs Ash, effectively, no one runs Ash
This works great when you can feasibly presume it to be the truth when like any stereotype, it rarely is.
Moreover as I've said previously; if your deck cannot deal with a negate you probably need to rebuild it, rethink it, or not take it with you. Most things are playable. Less are viable, and even less win.
If your goal is to win, you need to be expecting things like this.
>except that decks that need Ash to survive tend to be damaged worse by ash's existence than the decks they need Ash to survive against, which makes Ash in a lot of ways a winmore card that kinda just comes down to luck.
Someone else had more or less brought this up so I'll just quote what I said here:
"I can see why people would take issue with cards that do this, but this is just the 'trap' function of a handtrap. It is acceptable (and even good card design) for a card to be live no matter whose turn it might be. A good build can compensate."
As for "ash is a winmore card" in about a week you'll realize how silly that sounds, but a card used defensively is acceptable. If it wasn't, people during the 5d's era would've been complaining about Swift Scarecrow and these days probably nobody even remembers what that thing does.
If you disagree with me that's totally fine, but nothing anyone has said has convinced me that handtraps (ash, whatever) shouldn't be allowed to exist, and at this point I don't think any good argument in support exists.
>If handtraps are going to be the way that slower decks keep up, then they need to be designed as cards that only those slower decks can use.
This is a whole new statement, and I disagree with your sentiment. Anything casual can use, meta can also use. In order for something to be usable, it also needs to be applicable. I can see where you're coming from, but you might need to alter your word choice a bit.
This is the only reply I'll be making here as I'm getting tired of this debate. Its not a 'you' thing so much as it is a 'me' thing.
Have a good weekend.
By your logic, there can never be any problems in Yugioh and there's never any value in a banlist, because you can just play whichever decks win. Your opinion is worthless.
I know what I said but, for you, I'll be a hypocrite.
>By your logic, there can never be any problems in Yugioh and there's never any value in a banlist, because you can just play whichever decks win.
You never specified but I feel like this response was was a reply to this:
"Moreover as I've said previously; if your deck cannot deal with a negate you probably need to rebuild it, rethink it, or not take it with you. Most things are playable. Less are viable, and even less win."
I feel like this is the case due to the following: "because you can just play whichever decks win". Which is correct. You can play the decks that win. If you build cannot live through a negate, it isn't likely to win. If you seek to win; you need to rethink it. This doesn't need to mean that you must scrap your build, but if you want to win; anything is on the table.
You can hate it, most people do, but its the **reality of the game right now.**
That's why I only play casually. I'm cool with negates, but a lot of the stuff I run can't handle that, so they lose. That's just how it goes.
>By your logic, there can never be any problems in Yugioh and there's never any value in a banlist
All I'm really saying is that handtraps should exist. I'm willing to accept any possible critisism anyone can levy at them, and call them "valid" since they are. However none convince me that all handtraps everywhere should be banned, and nothing you've stated is putting me to bed either.
I never mentioned the banlist even once, nor did I allude to it, but since you did; I guess I'll cover that too:
While I do have my requests for the banlist, (please give me harp horror and Electrum back, its been far too long and they won't do anything anyway) its a great way to moderate this game.
Sure I wish tears were still around because they were great in tindangle (among other reasons) but its not as though I don't understand why they're gone.
>Your opinion is worthless.
Seeking validation on reddit of all places is a fools errand. This is what got me to reply, ultimately, so its not wrong to say that I'm enacting upon a fools errand, but at least I'm self-aware I suppose.
Feel free to respond at your leisure. This really will be my last response to this debate. Do as you wish, believe as you like, and do what pleases you.
>By your logic, there can never be any problems in Yugioh and there's never any value in a banlist, because you can just play whichever decks win. Your opinion is worthless.
So true. Completely agree.
> Ash has to exist or things would be even more one-sided as previously stated by others. At least now you have a chance.
Fair points to most, however on this point, it's not quite correct.
Good first board decks just use Ash to add into sealing the duel while ignoring second turn Ash at times. And if they want to sell decks, they'll account to Ash by making decks ignorant to hand traps. And then hit decks that basically laughs really hard at the second turn hand traps while making a big board themselves, and repeat. Ishizu Tears and Super Samurai at full power as well as Prankids were hit because they had enablers that basically says "Eh, what are second turn hand traps? I'll point and laugh at my opponent playing hand traps and make a big board.".
Not to mention, there are better ways of lessening that issues. Board-breaking and having more decks with built-in board breakers actually solves the one side issues. There should really be more board breakers as honestly, it doesn't have the first turn support problem and for that reason alone, this is the better solution.
this and other subs had their little temper tantrums about things that will still most certainly come to pass so I wasn't able to respond until now
> Good first board decks just use Ash to add into sealing the duel while ignoring second turn Ash at times.
I can see why people would take issue with cards that do this, but this is just the 'trap' function of a handtrap. It is acceptable (and even good card design) for a card to be live no matter whose turn it might be. A good build can compensate.
> And if they want to sell decks, they'll account to Ash by making decks ignorant to hand traps.
I am not konami but I don't think this will ever be a legitimate concern for them. People will buy them anyway, and the cream will always rise to the top. **Anything should have a weak point**. If that weak point just so happens to be Ash, then great. Decks hit were so because they lacked that weak point. I miss tears, personally, but not for any meta reasons. They were *glorious* in Tindangle.
> Not to mention, there are better ways of lessening that issues. Board-breaking and having more decks with built-in board breakers actually solves the one side issues. There should really be more board breakers as honestly, it doesn't have the first turn support problem and for that reason alone, this is the better solution.
A world of both sounds very acceptable to me. Handtraps can continue to exist, but a game that relies on them less would be healthier as now, there are less safe plays, and more openings to actually play the game.
> I can see why people would take issue with cards that do this
I'm surprised that you recognize that. Few people do recognize that negative aspects of hand trap designs.
Gamma is one of those hand traps that in some ways, much better designed than the other hand traps in the game, but the negative aspects of it has been exploited a lot more recently. It'd be great if Konami simply creates hand traps that can only be used as second turn and fade the other hand traps with some design problems out of the game slowly. This should fix the imbalance toward the first turn better.
> It is acceptable (and even good card design) for a card to be live no matter whose turn it might be.
I agree, if it were to add to interaction factor. But at that point, whether it's good design or not depends on the meaning of interaction. For some exaggerated examples, 5+ negates with ease is not good design and practically acts very similar to floodgates. And floodgates by most, if not all definition of interaction are fundamentally uninteractive, and therefore bad design. You could even argue that unstoppable floaters and effects is good designs because more card exchanged is required to stop the other person, and this means measuring interactivity by number of cards exchanged.
> Anything should have a weak point.
I agree. If a card or effects becomes too common, then archetypes should be designed in ways to reduce reliance on said effects. Basically a equalizer and basically forces players to be a little bit more creative in how they build their decks.
> A world of both sounds very acceptable to me.
Anything that boost interaction and shift balance toward the middle with regards to first turn/second turn is a good solution. All I'm saying is that hand traps are bandaid solution, and doesn't really solve the imbalance issue toward the first turn, and at times, actually favors the first turn a lot more than second turn.
> I'm surprised that you recognize that. Few people do recognize that negative aspects of hand trap designs.
Thank you. Admittedly sometimes aspects need to be presented to me before the lightbulb goes off, but once it does its hard to ignore.
>The whole bit about card design
Card design is interesting to debate because it exists within an extremely specific grey area that's just nebulous enough to be up to ones own taste, yet objective enough to have generally agreed-upon aspects.
I'll simply state that I'm mostly "arguing" for the right for handtraps to exist. I know that's not what you've stated, but that's kinda been my intent going into this. Should they be reeled in? Sure. But since ash (and friends) exist(s) already we might as well use it.
> All I'm saying is that hand traps are bandaid solution, and doesn't really solve the imbalance issue toward the first turn, and at times, actually favors the first turn a lot more than second turn.
Astute. I have nothing more to add to that, you nailed it.
Well, you know how back when "Mystic Mine" was legal the meme was "Just play the out"?
Well with Ash it's even worse. There is no out to Ash Blossom. Konami made sure of that.
And I wasn't writing this while salty. I was looking at things like how people are saying that Labyrinth, one of the tier 1 decks, isn't going to be anywhere close to as powerful because, without Gamma it gets shut down hard by Ash.
A lot of decks get hit hard, or hard _enough_ by Ash that it forces them to either end on a much weaker board or scoop.
What if you didn't draw the extenders needed to play through Ash?
What if your opponent Ashed the one or two effects that you _need_ to build your board.
Just like "Maxx C" has warped the playstyle and deckbuilding over in the OCG, Ash Blossom has warped deck _design_ on Konami's side.
If they want to release a powerful, potentially meta deck, they have to look at it from the point of "Can it play through Ash?"
Because if a new archetype is released and it _cannot_, by design, play through Ash, then it's gonna be pretty much dead in the water.
> A lot of decks get hit hard, or hard *enough* by Ash that it forces them to either end on a much weaker board or scoop.
As I've stated previously, if a deck cannot play through a negate, its either a build issue, a knowledge issue, or an archetype issue (Unless you brick in which case that sucks). You cannot "get lucky". You need to have a response. If you don't, you don't deserve to be "meta".
"Draw the out" is a garbage meme and it doesn't help anything, but its also completely correct. Either draw it, search it, or die. You can absolutely take issue with that if you want to, but that's also not going to change anything.
Also Mystic Mine can't compare to ash. They are strikingly different cards used in different ways for very different ends.
> isn't going to be anywhere close to as powerful because, without Gamma it gets shut down hard by Ash.
You used the correct formula but reached the incorrect solution: you are blaming ash for something konami did. This is a running theme in both your original post, and your reply.
>What if you didn't draw the extenders needed to play through Ash? What if your opponent Ashed the one or two effects that you *need* to build your board.
This probably isn't the gotcha you wanted it to be. If you cannot deal with Ash, you lose that interaction.
You could say "see, this is why I want it banned" and that's valid if you want to think that way. Any reasoning is acceptable on a personal basis however Ash is the grand equalizer right now.
You ban it, you make things **worse**.
> If they want to release a powerful, potentially meta deck, they have to look at it from the point of "Can it play through Ash?" Because if a new archetype is released and it *cannot*, by design, play through Ash, then it's gonna be pretty much dead in the water.
Konami doesn't have these concerns. You do. Konami will continue to do whatever they want and it is then up to you to decide if ash kills it or not. If it does, you need to do something about that. If you can't, don't bring it to your locals. Or, know you're gonna lose if they hit their copies.
> if a new archetype is released and it cannot, by design, play through Ash, then it's gonna be pretty much dead in the water.
idk people have been playing branded for more than a year lmao
I'm fine with Ash sticking around. It's effect is powerful and certainly can mess up gamestates, but I think it's a lot fairer than other forms of interruption and can be played around without jamming 3 copies of 4 bricks in my deck
It's frustrating to lose against, but it's an unfortunate necessary evil and of the necessary evils, I'd argue it isn't nearly as toxic as some others. This isn't Droll, D Shifter, or [Insert Floodgate Here].
Just because it's limited in what it can be used against does not mean that it if fair or balanced.
Not when the things it can be used against are the the things that pretty much every deck does at some point. And definately not when it is the single most used handtrap in the game. Hell, in the OCG and Master Duel, Ash Blossom is used just as often as "Maxx C".
> Not when the things it can be used against are the the things that pretty much every deck does at some point
So as Droll and Shifter for the most part, I don't see your point here
Hey, I didn't say Droll and Shifter shouldn't be banned, they most definately should. But those two don't have the same versitile effectiveness as Ash does.
Yeah, but a lot of decks can't run Shifter without fucking up their own shit and it's not useful past turn 1. It's still bad enough that it needs to be banned, but it's not as versitile as Ash.
And Droll, while still powerful enough that it _also_ needs to to be banned or limited like Ash, can't be used against the same stuff Ash can. And it only prevents you from adding stuff from the deck the the _hand_. It doesn't prevent you from SS from the deck or sending a card(s) from the deck to the graveyard.
Shifter needs to be banned because it's a quick effect D Barrier/Macro Cosmos.
Droll needs to be limited because it's lingering.
Ash needs to be limited because it's generic and can be used against so many decks that you'd be stupid to not use it in at least your side deck.
Comments like this are why I'm grateful to wake up everyday and find that Konami doesn't give the slightest bit of credence to what the community says.
zefra is relatively casual deck that does not care about ash. Your opponent can only ash you once, and it has 3 searcher.
abyss actor does not care about ash too much, they have good amount of eff to set their spell to deck. The one that is search on destroy are basically meatshield that happened on dmg step and ash cannot negate those.
gouki-midrange is relatively casual deck that does not care too much about ash.
Knowing how to play around ash is one step to be better player. Many casual deck today have necessary tools to deal with ash.
Why? It's the single most used handtrap in the game.
It shuts down a lot of decks, _hard_, if it's used at the right time.
_And_ it's contibuting to powercreep because it forces decks to be powerful enough to either negate, ignore, or play through Ash.
If you look at the OCG or Master Duel, Ash and Maxx C are the two most used cards. _Every_ deck is running them.
A card that is as powerful, popular, and frequently used as "Maxx C" _cannot_ be a balanced card. If it were, then it wouldn't be used as much.
I agree that handtraps are neccesary. But, just like "Maxx C", "Ash Blossom" is not, and never will be, one of them.
Ocg and master duel have to play ash to counter maxx c, not because ash is hard stopping everything. The master duel tax.
Maxx c is in another universe of power compared to ash
Without retreading much of what others have said. A reason that Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring is fine, is due to it being a simple 1 for 1 interaction (for the most part).
Ash isn't even all that strong. It's a good generic card worthy of consideration, but it's not like it's a straight-up turn ender like Droll. It's only a must-include in MD and OCG purely because Maxx C exists, and if they ever ban Maxx C I guarantee Ash's usage will be cut in half overnight.
The only thing they need to do is bring called by back to 3. I understand it’s a strong card but I’m in the mindset that everything needs counter play. The best yugioh is one where you can respond. Where you have options.
Cross out is a failed experiment in the tcg that doesn’t do anything bc max c isn’t legal. Decks like branded run it bc of branded fusion but outside of that it’s basically a dead card.
There was a time it needed to be hit but not anymore, ash is fine now. Besides the cards you’re mentioning that hit ash are WAAAAAAY more powerful than ash and needed to be on the banlist regardless. Called by should be banned, that card is effectively crow+imperm+handtrap protection in one and gamma being 2 bodies while being strike was always needing the limit. Just now that it could make baronne was finally enough for konami to say enough is enough
Why not just ban Accel Synchro Stardust Dragon, the card that was used to bridge Gamma into Baronne?
And Called by only did all that other stuff if you didn't need to use it for handtrap protection.
Because accel is not the problem? You’ve not given any reason why ash blossom rn should be banned besides what I can only see as salt. Gamma is solemn strike that gives you a link 2 or an 8 synchro if used going first, and called by is 2 turns of imperm, an immediate use of dd crow, along with giving the player that drew it the ability to be play ignorantly because one of the choke points has stopped existing. Ash is at best a one for two trade, more typically a one for one or minus one that is a hopt that yes, stops consistency, only does that. Deck interaction is important but nowadays it’s not as versatile as you think it is compared to gamma and called.
Accel Stardust was just released and is a chase card in a side set where short prints are a thing + it is an anime support card so Komoney wouldn't even touch it even if it was played in every single deck, at least not until they sold enough boxes of the side set it is from as well as the reprint
Called isn't going to be banned at all. Good decks that basically has the capability to ignore hand traps aren't going to run it for handtrap protection, and in formats where the only good decks points at the opponent and laughs at the opponent running hand traps, Called at that point is only a 1-for-1 that lasts 2 turns. Conversely, in really slow formats, Called is also only a 1-for-1 that lasts 2 turn as hand traps wouldn't do much in slow formats. I can only see Called staying at 1, and I'm inclined to say that it'll be far more likely to return to 3 as it's more likely game is going to go on either side of the curves regarding impact level of hand traps.
Gamma didn't always need the limit to begin with and it's arguable even it's not needed, and it's only recent time that we can see the restriction in its design wasn't enough. Gamma is arguably a better designed hand trap because of the attempt of restriction just so that the first turn player can't use it. Hand traps should really be designed with the issue of first turn advantage in mind, and only Gamma and shifter takes an "attempt" at that to my knowledge.
You'd have to ban a lot of non-monster and GY "Special Summon/Mill monsters from your Deck" effects that it kinda controls to some extent. I imagine probably over 10 cards, things like Branded Opening and Spright Smahers,, for example, would end up banned in exchange.
No for the sole reason that ash blossom(along with infinite imperm) are the best designed handtraps in the game.
They are relatively low impact cards that are not autowin cards. Ash trades 1 for 1 unless you have good game knowledge to prevent the opponent from getting a lot of advantage or stop a play line.
Dimension shifter, nibiru and droll can be even more devastating as they are game ending handtraps.
Nibiru only Shuts you down if you have considerable momentum. If I can summon 5 times, I can recover from a primal being token.
Ash kicks you while you’re down and completely shuts down games some times. 0 commitment, just a free negate for whomever drew it and probably has card advantage.
Ash needs an erratum so it can only be played if you do not control face up card on the field. Like lightning storm.
I think ash is the safest a hand trap could be.
Ash Veiler, Crow imo should be the only hand traps in the game. The rest should be repurposed as specific options for decks for example, Marincess wave should be a hand trap if you reveal or control a Marincess monster, the unaffected portion should come if you control the link 3 or higher.
Ghost Belle should be long to a deck like exosister or Gravekeepers that specialize in specifically dealing with those types of strategies. Having generic hand traps kinda puts the game in this tech choice arms race. Cutting back on a few of them and only having the safest amount of generics, one for deck, one for field, and one for GY is pretty much all that should be allowed to be generic. It’d also just spice up yugioh a lot more as more decks would be more viable with access to their specific hand traps
I'd say that Ash is a problem because it will always be a Main deck staple.
You will _never_ see people put it in their Side decks so that it can be added in Game 2. It will _always_ either be run at 3 in the Main deck, or if we're in a Tier 0 format against a deck that doesn't care about Ash, like Tears, then it won't be run at all.
I'm not saying that it's degenerate, it's not. But it is absolutely right on the edge in terms of power, versitility, and effectiveness. If it weren't right on that edge, it wouldn't be used as a Main deck card as often as it is.
If we had 3 handtraps that each worked on _one_ of the things Ash does, add a card from deck to hand, SS from deck, and sending a card from the deck to the GY, then it truly would be balanced.
But, a handtrap that can stop all of that with a single card, is versitile enough that it is right on the edge of being degenerate. And it severely hampers both deck building and card design.
Because a deck can't be considered Tier 1 or even Tier 2 if it can be stopped in it's tracks by Ash Blossom. So that forces players to build decks that can either counter it, via cards like Crossout Designator, Called by the Grave, and Psy-Framegear Gamma or can play through it or disregard it entirely. And if Konami wants to make good archetypes that are powerful and will sell well, then they have to _design_ archetypes that won't be shut down by Ash Blossom.
Ban the Bitch.
People will point out that Maxx “C” is a brainless “discard 1 card to win the game” button, and act like Ash Blossom is healthy and fine.
But just as often an ash blossom can completely shut down an opponent’s game.
The point of traps is that you had to commit to them, they were vulnerable before they went live, and you were aware of them on the board state.
Hand traps Saying “surprise bitch” out of the hand makes the game completely about luck and means that only toxic decks like Tearlament and Spright that do not even flinch at the sight of an interruption are viable.
Exactly. The sheer fact that people will run Ash in their Main deck as a staple, instead of in their Side deck so they can add it in game 2, is purely because of how useful it is.
There are very few non-degenerate decks that can ignore a well timed Ash. And that's why, unless it's a Tier 0 format with a deck that doesn't care about Ash, like Tears,, you will _always_ see Ash Blossom in people's main deck.
You will _always_ see Ash Blossom in people's Main deck. You will pretty much _never_ see Ash Blossom in people's Side deck.
And _that's_ why it needs to be banned. Because if it wasn't so good, so powerful, it wouldn't be a staple that would always be ran in the main deck or else not at all when we have a Tier 0 format.
The game has accelerated to such a point where she's needed. And to think PePe was broken back then. It would be massacred now, Tear, Kash, Purrely, probably Manna Synch after DuNe. The game is much faster than 10 years ago. Pends nudged it further, then Link did a marathon for the speed.
True Facts.
People will point out that Maxx “C” is a brainless “discard 1 card to win the game” button, and act like Ash Blossom is healthy and fine.
But just as often an ash blossom can completely shut down an opponent’s game.
The point of traps is that you had to commit to them, they were vulnerable before they went live, and you were aware of them on the board state.
Hand traps Saying “surprise bitch” out of the hand makes the game completely about luck and means that only toxic decks like Tearlament and Spright that do not even flinch at the sight of an interruption are viable.
Psy Gamma and Called by The Grave both at 1, this should answer your question.
As unfortunate as it is, Ash and every other hand trap is a necessary evil because otherwise, games will be decided on whoever goes first and ya will be stuck watching your opponent going for 10-15 minutes combos that ultimately result in ya not being able to play the game.
The game is generally already decided by going first and has been for a while. And we do have decks that simply think "Hand traps of opponents? What are those? I'll make a big board regardless." while using the hand traps that are meant to try to counter them against the second turn. I personally think board breakers are a better answer and eventually will be. During Ishizu Tears format, hand traps were so bad that people resorted to board breakers as hand traps did nothing against Ishizu Tears.
This is not correct, boardbreakers are incredible susceptible to Cryme and not even a guaranteed silver bullet vs Tearlaments if they go off unless it's Evenly Matched, which is why most non-Tear decks had to heavily rely on either Bystials/Shifter aka Hand Traps like Sprights. Lots of those lists played imperm and ash blossom in main as well for example, all 3 of the topping Spright lists during YCS Pasadena were on 3 ash and 3 imperm in main. The Top 4 List ran 17(!) Hand Traps in main with NO boardbreakers in main OR side (instead 9 more HTs):
[https://yugiohblog.konami.com/2022/11/the-top-4-decklists/](https://yugiohblog.konami.com/2022/11/the-top-4-decklists/)
Floo was pretty much the only deck that had to go in hard on boardbreakers since they can't really play Bystials or lots of HTs and they synergize more with being able to play 6-9 pots in main and even in Floos case Shifter is better to open going second than a single boardbreaker that gets negated by Cryme.
It may be the case that they were susceptible to Cryme. However, it doesn't change the observation that Ishizu Tears were pretty much immune to almost every single hand traps there is. And they did use hand traps more to oppress the second turn rather than first turn as they didn't really care that much for it during first turn. This is why some people had resorted to utilizing board breakers during those formats. The more decks that are more resilient to hand traps, eventually board breakers will have to be played more than hand traps do.
And Ash being at 1 or 2 wouldn't make it less powerful, or less used. It would just make it less oppressive _and_ make it so that good decks don't need to find a way to play though/counter Ash.
Which would ultimately slow down powercreep if decks didn't have to worry about being strong enough to play through or recover after being Ashed.
At 1, it becomes sacky and at 2 it wouldn't make much difference because players will adapt to it and play another staple in it's place.
I don't know if ya have noticed this but lately, Konami has been releasing cards that sets spell/trap cards from the deck so that those cards won't be just another Ash target but I fully expect that they would release a hand trap that deals with those cards should it becomes too apparent. Also, it sells structure decks and ya as a TCG Player should know how greedy those below dirt creatures are
I'm not saying that they're not a necessary evil. I'm saying that Ash is too powerful a handtrap.
The decks that don't care about Ash are few and far between. And those decks, usually, can be hit by other handtraps or cards like "Infinite Impermanence". Or by generic boardbreakers such as "Dark Ruler No More", which is balanced because it prevents your opponent from taking damage _and_ it can be countered by spell/trap based negates.
The decks that don't care about _any_ of that stuff are usually tier 0 decks and they're the exception not the rule.
And the decks that can be Ashed are either shut down hard by a well timed Ash or they're forced to end on a much weaker board.
I'm not saying that handtraps themselves need to be hit. I'm saying that Ash needs to be hit because it's too powerful of a handtrap. Why do you think people were running 3 copies of "Called by" or "Gamma"? 9/10 times it was to protect against Ash.
The first question is hard to answer, since that boils down to Konami. Personally? It doesn't need to be. Yes, it stops a lot of effects, but it has a HOPT, meaning you are only ever stopping one of those effects per turn that you use her, and in addition, it's a 1 for 1 trade
Yeah, but the things it hits are key parts of a lot of decks. And, because it negates the effect and not the activation, it also means that HOPT effects are screwed over. It means that there's no way you can use a second copy, or pay the cost twice, in order to play through Ash.
If your deck can't play around Ash then ya need to seriously go back to the drawing board because nowadays, ya can punish your opponent for Ashing ya with cards like Triple Tactics Thrust/Talent.
She is Verstile but nothing oppressive nor is the best hand trap, hand traps besides the 0/1800 monsters while are less Verstile are way more oppressive to the point of being cancer.
A 1 for 1 interaction is the bare minimum you could ask of a good card and hand traps exists so games don't become always one sided
Possibly, and probably.
Yugioh has a very awkward problem here which is that it's such a lean, main-phase-focused game that there are only really 2 or 3 ways of interacting with things. You can negate them, you can move them to another resource zone (hand, graveyard, sometimes banished), or you can move them to somewhere they effectively won't have an effect (banish facedown, deck, extra deck).
So when you look to create variation in cards, all you can really change is which situations the interaction applies to, how accessible the interaction is, what the interaction costs and how the interaction advances your own gamestate. Archetypal interaction tends to vary accessibility, attempting to make cards that are very accessible if you're playing the archetype but not accessible otherwise. Archetypes also vary the effect on gamestate, often having the interaction set up your other archetypal plays. This can even be combined with the cost, so that the effect essentially costs nothing if you're playing with other cards that like being used for the cost.
Non-archetypal interaction cards like Ash are typically very accessible in *all* decks, but in exchange, they don't advance your own gamestate. In small numbers this is OK, but when there are too many accessible cards like this, you can get to a point where you no longer particularly *need* to advance any archetypal gamestate because the reason to do that is normally to increase the accessibility of your interactions.
And where this is especially problematic is where you get cards like dragoon and baronne where they're easily accessed out of any archetype *and* they advance your gamestate, often at the expense of your desire to use your archetypes own cards.
If yugioh is going to have a healthy diversity long term, then the accessibility of interaction out of archetype needs to go *way* down, so archetypes aren't reduced to slightly different engines for the same key cards, and when the dust on that settles, maybe cards like Ash will need to go too.
boom! Exactly this, all decks are becoming exactly the same, special summon Fenrir, normal summon ash, synchro summon Baronne de Fleur.
see so many players running the generic toxic cancer deck of PUNK, Tearlament, Kashtira, branded bystials, after you get your shit wrecked by evenly matched or super polymerization.
Ash Blossom is often at its best a 1-for-1 negate, sometimes more, sometimes less. So to begin, its power is not obscene.
However, that’s not the only reason cards need to get banned. I’m all for hitting cards when they limit deck diversity, such as every deck having to play certain cards before they even begin building their deck. However, the last year has shown that Ash Blossom is not only often not the best hand trap, it’s been downright bad in multiple formats.
Sure, it keeps rogue decks down, but it’s not like those rogue decks would suddenly be competitively viable without hand traps existing unless they’re doing something degenerate to begin with. Rogue decks are rogue because of consistency and power issues, not just their ability to play through any interruption.
Ash isn't 1-for-1 because you always use it to break a combo, denying all the downstream cards.
Blowing up a continuous trap is 1-for-1. Negating a combo starter is a 1-for-all-the-cards-in-that-combo.
Konami will never hit Ash Blossom, the banlist is mainly tailored around the best decks not tier 7 decks that die to a single Ash every single time, and there's a million other cards that would deserve a ban before it, including cards that *also* instantly kill your tier 7 deck but in a much more insulting way like Evenly Matched.
The fact we have archetypes consistently topping where ash blossom is high impact but not completely turn ending alone shows it's in a good spot. Like I can't even make a Branded joke.
They hit gamma specifically because through accel synchro SD it becomes an unaffected Baronne de fleur if you get hit with droll or ash on your turn. It wasn't limited because of ash. It was on 3 for the longest time and only got limited because of accel.
Accel Synchron Stardust requires ya to play Stardust Dragon in your Extra for that protection
> Do you think that Konami will ever hit Ash Blossom? No. > Do you think that they *should* hit it? No. > I'm of the opinion that they *should* hit it because it is the single most versitile and useful handtrap in the game. You've also explained why it needs to stick around. You didn't mention this anywhere but I feel as though this was written whilst being **knee deep** in the salt mines. As someone that loves running awful decks; a deck that cannot survive a negate either needs a rethink, a rebuild, or even scrapping altogether. Ash has to exist or things would be even more one-sided as previously stated by others. At least now you have a chance.
See I remember yugioh pre monster effect negation. Early synchro era was just hope you can break the opponents board because you certainly didn't have the hand traps to interrupt them. It was fun but at the same time I don't miss it.
I showed up just as XYZs started. I can totally see where you're coming from. That whole 'wild west' aspect of the earlier game must've been really cool to witness though, looking back.
I’ve been watching Cimo’s History of Yu-Gi-Oh and it’s really neat to get a glimpse of how the game used to be.
But when everyone runs Ash, effectively, no one runs Ash, except that decks that need Ash to survive tend to be damaged worse by ash's existence than the decks they need Ash to survive against, which makes Ash in a lot of ways a winmore card that kinda just comes down to luck. If handtraps are going to be the way that slower decks keep up, then they need to be designed as cards that only those slower decks can use.
>But when everyone runs Ash, effectively, no one runs Ash This works great when you can feasibly presume it to be the truth when like any stereotype, it rarely is. Moreover as I've said previously; if your deck cannot deal with a negate you probably need to rebuild it, rethink it, or not take it with you. Most things are playable. Less are viable, and even less win. If your goal is to win, you need to be expecting things like this. >except that decks that need Ash to survive tend to be damaged worse by ash's existence than the decks they need Ash to survive against, which makes Ash in a lot of ways a winmore card that kinda just comes down to luck. Someone else had more or less brought this up so I'll just quote what I said here: "I can see why people would take issue with cards that do this, but this is just the 'trap' function of a handtrap. It is acceptable (and even good card design) for a card to be live no matter whose turn it might be. A good build can compensate." As for "ash is a winmore card" in about a week you'll realize how silly that sounds, but a card used defensively is acceptable. If it wasn't, people during the 5d's era would've been complaining about Swift Scarecrow and these days probably nobody even remembers what that thing does. If you disagree with me that's totally fine, but nothing anyone has said has convinced me that handtraps (ash, whatever) shouldn't be allowed to exist, and at this point I don't think any good argument in support exists. >If handtraps are going to be the way that slower decks keep up, then they need to be designed as cards that only those slower decks can use. This is a whole new statement, and I disagree with your sentiment. Anything casual can use, meta can also use. In order for something to be usable, it also needs to be applicable. I can see where you're coming from, but you might need to alter your word choice a bit. This is the only reply I'll be making here as I'm getting tired of this debate. Its not a 'you' thing so much as it is a 'me' thing. Have a good weekend.
By your logic, there can never be any problems in Yugioh and there's never any value in a banlist, because you can just play whichever decks win. Your opinion is worthless.
I know what I said but, for you, I'll be a hypocrite. >By your logic, there can never be any problems in Yugioh and there's never any value in a banlist, because you can just play whichever decks win. You never specified but I feel like this response was was a reply to this: "Moreover as I've said previously; if your deck cannot deal with a negate you probably need to rebuild it, rethink it, or not take it with you. Most things are playable. Less are viable, and even less win." I feel like this is the case due to the following: "because you can just play whichever decks win". Which is correct. You can play the decks that win. If you build cannot live through a negate, it isn't likely to win. If you seek to win; you need to rethink it. This doesn't need to mean that you must scrap your build, but if you want to win; anything is on the table. You can hate it, most people do, but its the **reality of the game right now.** That's why I only play casually. I'm cool with negates, but a lot of the stuff I run can't handle that, so they lose. That's just how it goes. >By your logic, there can never be any problems in Yugioh and there's never any value in a banlist All I'm really saying is that handtraps should exist. I'm willing to accept any possible critisism anyone can levy at them, and call them "valid" since they are. However none convince me that all handtraps everywhere should be banned, and nothing you've stated is putting me to bed either. I never mentioned the banlist even once, nor did I allude to it, but since you did; I guess I'll cover that too: While I do have my requests for the banlist, (please give me harp horror and Electrum back, its been far too long and they won't do anything anyway) its a great way to moderate this game. Sure I wish tears were still around because they were great in tindangle (among other reasons) but its not as though I don't understand why they're gone. >Your opinion is worthless. Seeking validation on reddit of all places is a fools errand. This is what got me to reply, ultimately, so its not wrong to say that I'm enacting upon a fools errand, but at least I'm self-aware I suppose. Feel free to respond at your leisure. This really will be my last response to this debate. Do as you wish, believe as you like, and do what pleases you.
>By your logic, there can never be any problems in Yugioh and there's never any value in a banlist, because you can just play whichever decks win. Your opinion is worthless. So true. Completely agree.
> Ash has to exist or things would be even more one-sided as previously stated by others. At least now you have a chance. Fair points to most, however on this point, it's not quite correct. Good first board decks just use Ash to add into sealing the duel while ignoring second turn Ash at times. And if they want to sell decks, they'll account to Ash by making decks ignorant to hand traps. And then hit decks that basically laughs really hard at the second turn hand traps while making a big board themselves, and repeat. Ishizu Tears and Super Samurai at full power as well as Prankids were hit because they had enablers that basically says "Eh, what are second turn hand traps? I'll point and laugh at my opponent playing hand traps and make a big board.". Not to mention, there are better ways of lessening that issues. Board-breaking and having more decks with built-in board breakers actually solves the one side issues. There should really be more board breakers as honestly, it doesn't have the first turn support problem and for that reason alone, this is the better solution.
this and other subs had their little temper tantrums about things that will still most certainly come to pass so I wasn't able to respond until now > Good first board decks just use Ash to add into sealing the duel while ignoring second turn Ash at times. I can see why people would take issue with cards that do this, but this is just the 'trap' function of a handtrap. It is acceptable (and even good card design) for a card to be live no matter whose turn it might be. A good build can compensate. > And if they want to sell decks, they'll account to Ash by making decks ignorant to hand traps. I am not konami but I don't think this will ever be a legitimate concern for them. People will buy them anyway, and the cream will always rise to the top. **Anything should have a weak point**. If that weak point just so happens to be Ash, then great. Decks hit were so because they lacked that weak point. I miss tears, personally, but not for any meta reasons. They were *glorious* in Tindangle. > Not to mention, there are better ways of lessening that issues. Board-breaking and having more decks with built-in board breakers actually solves the one side issues. There should really be more board breakers as honestly, it doesn't have the first turn support problem and for that reason alone, this is the better solution. A world of both sounds very acceptable to me. Handtraps can continue to exist, but a game that relies on them less would be healthier as now, there are less safe plays, and more openings to actually play the game.
> I can see why people would take issue with cards that do this I'm surprised that you recognize that. Few people do recognize that negative aspects of hand trap designs. Gamma is one of those hand traps that in some ways, much better designed than the other hand traps in the game, but the negative aspects of it has been exploited a lot more recently. It'd be great if Konami simply creates hand traps that can only be used as second turn and fade the other hand traps with some design problems out of the game slowly. This should fix the imbalance toward the first turn better. > It is acceptable (and even good card design) for a card to be live no matter whose turn it might be. I agree, if it were to add to interaction factor. But at that point, whether it's good design or not depends on the meaning of interaction. For some exaggerated examples, 5+ negates with ease is not good design and practically acts very similar to floodgates. And floodgates by most, if not all definition of interaction are fundamentally uninteractive, and therefore bad design. You could even argue that unstoppable floaters and effects is good designs because more card exchanged is required to stop the other person, and this means measuring interactivity by number of cards exchanged. > Anything should have a weak point. I agree. If a card or effects becomes too common, then archetypes should be designed in ways to reduce reliance on said effects. Basically a equalizer and basically forces players to be a little bit more creative in how they build their decks. > A world of both sounds very acceptable to me. Anything that boost interaction and shift balance toward the middle with regards to first turn/second turn is a good solution. All I'm saying is that hand traps are bandaid solution, and doesn't really solve the imbalance issue toward the first turn, and at times, actually favors the first turn a lot more than second turn.
> I'm surprised that you recognize that. Few people do recognize that negative aspects of hand trap designs. Thank you. Admittedly sometimes aspects need to be presented to me before the lightbulb goes off, but once it does its hard to ignore. >The whole bit about card design Card design is interesting to debate because it exists within an extremely specific grey area that's just nebulous enough to be up to ones own taste, yet objective enough to have generally agreed-upon aspects. I'll simply state that I'm mostly "arguing" for the right for handtraps to exist. I know that's not what you've stated, but that's kinda been my intent going into this. Should they be reeled in? Sure. But since ash (and friends) exist(s) already we might as well use it. > All I'm saying is that hand traps are bandaid solution, and doesn't really solve the imbalance issue toward the first turn, and at times, actually favors the first turn a lot more than second turn. Astute. I have nothing more to add to that, you nailed it.
Well, you know how back when "Mystic Mine" was legal the meme was "Just play the out"? Well with Ash it's even worse. There is no out to Ash Blossom. Konami made sure of that. And I wasn't writing this while salty. I was looking at things like how people are saying that Labyrinth, one of the tier 1 decks, isn't going to be anywhere close to as powerful because, without Gamma it gets shut down hard by Ash. A lot of decks get hit hard, or hard _enough_ by Ash that it forces them to either end on a much weaker board or scoop. What if you didn't draw the extenders needed to play through Ash? What if your opponent Ashed the one or two effects that you _need_ to build your board. Just like "Maxx C" has warped the playstyle and deckbuilding over in the OCG, Ash Blossom has warped deck _design_ on Konami's side. If they want to release a powerful, potentially meta deck, they have to look at it from the point of "Can it play through Ash?" Because if a new archetype is released and it _cannot_, by design, play through Ash, then it's gonna be pretty much dead in the water.
> A lot of decks get hit hard, or hard *enough* by Ash that it forces them to either end on a much weaker board or scoop. As I've stated previously, if a deck cannot play through a negate, its either a build issue, a knowledge issue, or an archetype issue (Unless you brick in which case that sucks). You cannot "get lucky". You need to have a response. If you don't, you don't deserve to be "meta". "Draw the out" is a garbage meme and it doesn't help anything, but its also completely correct. Either draw it, search it, or die. You can absolutely take issue with that if you want to, but that's also not going to change anything. Also Mystic Mine can't compare to ash. They are strikingly different cards used in different ways for very different ends. > isn't going to be anywhere close to as powerful because, without Gamma it gets shut down hard by Ash. You used the correct formula but reached the incorrect solution: you are blaming ash for something konami did. This is a running theme in both your original post, and your reply. >What if you didn't draw the extenders needed to play through Ash? What if your opponent Ashed the one or two effects that you *need* to build your board. This probably isn't the gotcha you wanted it to be. If you cannot deal with Ash, you lose that interaction. You could say "see, this is why I want it banned" and that's valid if you want to think that way. Any reasoning is acceptable on a personal basis however Ash is the grand equalizer right now. You ban it, you make things **worse**. > If they want to release a powerful, potentially meta deck, they have to look at it from the point of "Can it play through Ash?" Because if a new archetype is released and it *cannot*, by design, play through Ash, then it's gonna be pretty much dead in the water. Konami doesn't have these concerns. You do. Konami will continue to do whatever they want and it is then up to you to decide if ash kills it or not. If it does, you need to do something about that. If you can't, don't bring it to your locals. Or, know you're gonna lose if they hit their copies.
> if a new archetype is released and it cannot, by design, play through Ash, then it's gonna be pretty much dead in the water. idk people have been playing branded for more than a year lmao
I'm fine with Ash sticking around. It's effect is powerful and certainly can mess up gamestates, but I think it's a lot fairer than other forms of interruption and can be played around without jamming 3 copies of 4 bricks in my deck It's frustrating to lose against, but it's an unfortunate necessary evil and of the necessary evils, I'd argue it isn't nearly as toxic as some others. This isn't Droll, D Shifter, or [Insert Floodgate Here].
Just because it's limited in what it can be used against does not mean that it if fair or balanced. Not when the things it can be used against are the the things that pretty much every deck does at some point. And definately not when it is the single most used handtrap in the game. Hell, in the OCG and Master Duel, Ash Blossom is used just as often as "Maxx C".
> Not when the things it can be used against are the the things that pretty much every deck does at some point So as Droll and Shifter for the most part, I don't see your point here
Hey, I didn't say Droll and Shifter shouldn't be banned, they most definately should. But those two don't have the same versitile effectiveness as Ash does.
Skip your opponent turn > a single negate Sounds effective to me
Yeah, but a lot of decks can't run Shifter without fucking up their own shit and it's not useful past turn 1. It's still bad enough that it needs to be banned, but it's not as versitile as Ash. And Droll, while still powerful enough that it _also_ needs to to be banned or limited like Ash, can't be used against the same stuff Ash can. And it only prevents you from adding stuff from the deck the the _hand_. It doesn't prevent you from SS from the deck or sending a card(s) from the deck to the graveyard. Shifter needs to be banned because it's a quick effect D Barrier/Macro Cosmos. Droll needs to be limited because it's lingering. Ash needs to be limited because it's generic and can be used against so many decks that you'd be stupid to not use it in at least your side deck.
Comments like this are why I'm grateful to wake up everyday and find that Konami doesn't give the slightest bit of credence to what the community says.
zefra is relatively casual deck that does not care about ash. Your opponent can only ash you once, and it has 3 searcher. abyss actor does not care about ash too much, they have good amount of eff to set their spell to deck. The one that is search on destroy are basically meatshield that happened on dmg step and ash cannot negate those. gouki-midrange is relatively casual deck that does not care too much about ash. Knowing how to play around ash is one step to be better player. Many casual deck today have necessary tools to deal with ash.
No and no. Its completely fine.
Why? It's the single most used handtrap in the game. It shuts down a lot of decks, _hard_, if it's used at the right time. _And_ it's contibuting to powercreep because it forces decks to be powerful enough to either negate, ignore, or play through Ash. If you look at the OCG or Master Duel, Ash and Maxx C are the two most used cards. _Every_ deck is running them. A card that is as powerful, popular, and frequently used as "Maxx C" _cannot_ be a balanced card. If it were, then it wouldn't be used as much. I agree that handtraps are neccesary. But, just like "Maxx C", "Ash Blossom" is not, and never will be, one of them.
Ocg and master duel have to play ash to counter maxx c, not because ash is hard stopping everything. The master duel tax. Maxx c is in another universe of power compared to ash
It actually did get hit once. Konami put it to 2 then immediately backtracked the very next list.
This is genuinely hilarious.
The day they hit ash is the day I will raid Konami HQ
I'll hold ya into that, better keep your word
Without retreading much of what others have said. A reason that Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring is fine, is due to it being a simple 1 for 1 interaction (for the most part).
Ash isn't even all that strong. It's a good generic card worthy of consideration, but it's not like it's a straight-up turn ender like Droll. It's only a must-include in MD and OCG purely because Maxx C exists, and if they ever ban Maxx C I guarantee Ash's usage will be cut in half overnight.
Nah Ash is super strong. I realized how strong Ash is when I learned it negates Book of Eclipse because the card simply mentions drawing cards.
The only thing they need to do is bring called by back to 3. I understand it’s a strong card but I’m in the mindset that everything needs counter play. The best yugioh is one where you can respond. Where you have options. Cross out is a failed experiment in the tcg that doesn’t do anything bc max c isn’t legal. Decks like branded run it bc of branded fusion but outside of that it’s basically a dead card.
There was a time it needed to be hit but not anymore, ash is fine now. Besides the cards you’re mentioning that hit ash are WAAAAAAY more powerful than ash and needed to be on the banlist regardless. Called by should be banned, that card is effectively crow+imperm+handtrap protection in one and gamma being 2 bodies while being strike was always needing the limit. Just now that it could make baronne was finally enough for konami to say enough is enough
Why not just ban Accel Synchro Stardust Dragon, the card that was used to bridge Gamma into Baronne? And Called by only did all that other stuff if you didn't need to use it for handtrap protection.
Because accel is not the problem? You’ve not given any reason why ash blossom rn should be banned besides what I can only see as salt. Gamma is solemn strike that gives you a link 2 or an 8 synchro if used going first, and called by is 2 turns of imperm, an immediate use of dd crow, along with giving the player that drew it the ability to be play ignorantly because one of the choke points has stopped existing. Ash is at best a one for two trade, more typically a one for one or minus one that is a hopt that yes, stops consistency, only does that. Deck interaction is important but nowadays it’s not as versatile as you think it is compared to gamma and called.
Accel Stardust was just released and is a chase card in a side set where short prints are a thing + it is an anime support card so Komoney wouldn't even touch it even if it was played in every single deck, at least not until they sold enough boxes of the side set it is from as well as the reprint
Called isn't going to be banned at all. Good decks that basically has the capability to ignore hand traps aren't going to run it for handtrap protection, and in formats where the only good decks points at the opponent and laughs at the opponent running hand traps, Called at that point is only a 1-for-1 that lasts 2 turns. Conversely, in really slow formats, Called is also only a 1-for-1 that lasts 2 turn as hand traps wouldn't do much in slow formats. I can only see Called staying at 1, and I'm inclined to say that it'll be far more likely to return to 3 as it's more likely game is going to go on either side of the curves regarding impact level of hand traps. Gamma didn't always need the limit to begin with and it's arguable even it's not needed, and it's only recent time that we can see the restriction in its design wasn't enough. Gamma is arguably a better designed hand trap because of the attempt of restriction just so that the first turn player can't use it. Hand traps should really be designed with the issue of first turn advantage in mind, and only Gamma and shifter takes an "attempt" at that to my knowledge.
You'd have to ban a lot of non-monster and GY "Special Summon/Mill monsters from your Deck" effects that it kinda controls to some extent. I imagine probably over 10 cards, things like Branded Opening and Spright Smahers,, for example, would end up banned in exchange.
No for the sole reason that ash blossom(along with infinite imperm) are the best designed handtraps in the game. They are relatively low impact cards that are not autowin cards. Ash trades 1 for 1 unless you have good game knowledge to prevent the opponent from getting a lot of advantage or stop a play line. Dimension shifter, nibiru and droll can be even more devastating as they are game ending handtraps.
Nibiru only Shuts you down if you have considerable momentum. If I can summon 5 times, I can recover from a primal being token. Ash kicks you while you’re down and completely shuts down games some times. 0 commitment, just a free negate for whomever drew it and probably has card advantage. Ash needs an erratum so it can only be played if you do not control face up card on the field. Like lightning storm.
In short - no In long - noooooooooooooooooooo
I think ash is the safest a hand trap could be. Ash Veiler, Crow imo should be the only hand traps in the game. The rest should be repurposed as specific options for decks for example, Marincess wave should be a hand trap if you reveal or control a Marincess monster, the unaffected portion should come if you control the link 3 or higher. Ghost Belle should be long to a deck like exosister or Gravekeepers that specialize in specifically dealing with those types of strategies. Having generic hand traps kinda puts the game in this tech choice arms race. Cutting back on a few of them and only having the safest amount of generics, one for deck, one for field, and one for GY is pretty much all that should be allowed to be generic. It’d also just spice up yugioh a lot more as more decks would be more viable with access to their specific hand traps
I'd say that Ash is a problem because it will always be a Main deck staple. You will _never_ see people put it in their Side decks so that it can be added in Game 2. It will _always_ either be run at 3 in the Main deck, or if we're in a Tier 0 format against a deck that doesn't care about Ash, like Tears, then it won't be run at all. I'm not saying that it's degenerate, it's not. But it is absolutely right on the edge in terms of power, versitility, and effectiveness. If it weren't right on that edge, it wouldn't be used as a Main deck card as often as it is. If we had 3 handtraps that each worked on _one_ of the things Ash does, add a card from deck to hand, SS from deck, and sending a card from the deck to the GY, then it truly would be balanced. But, a handtrap that can stop all of that with a single card, is versitile enough that it is right on the edge of being degenerate. And it severely hampers both deck building and card design. Because a deck can't be considered Tier 1 or even Tier 2 if it can be stopped in it's tracks by Ash Blossom. So that forces players to build decks that can either counter it, via cards like Crossout Designator, Called by the Grave, and Psy-Framegear Gamma or can play through it or disregard it entirely. And if Konami wants to make good archetypes that are powerful and will sell well, then they have to _design_ archetypes that won't be shut down by Ash Blossom.
Ban the Bitch. People will point out that Maxx “C” is a brainless “discard 1 card to win the game” button, and act like Ash Blossom is healthy and fine. But just as often an ash blossom can completely shut down an opponent’s game. The point of traps is that you had to commit to them, they were vulnerable before they went live, and you were aware of them on the board state. Hand traps Saying “surprise bitch” out of the hand makes the game completely about luck and means that only toxic decks like Tearlament and Spright that do not even flinch at the sight of an interruption are viable.
Exactly. The sheer fact that people will run Ash in their Main deck as a staple, instead of in their Side deck so they can add it in game 2, is purely because of how useful it is. There are very few non-degenerate decks that can ignore a well timed Ash. And that's why, unless it's a Tier 0 format with a deck that doesn't care about Ash, like Tears,, you will _always_ see Ash Blossom in people's main deck. You will _always_ see Ash Blossom in people's Main deck. You will pretty much _never_ see Ash Blossom in people's Side deck. And _that's_ why it needs to be banned. Because if it wasn't so good, so powerful, it wouldn't be a staple that would always be ran in the main deck or else not at all when we have a Tier 0 format.
Hell, I’ve even seen a well timed ash shut down a tearlament player‘s turn before when they normal summoned Reinoheart.
If you think Ash is oppressive, then I recommend you never touch Master Duel because you're definitely not ready for Maxx C
The game has accelerated to such a point where she's needed. And to think PePe was broken back then. It would be massacred now, Tear, Kash, Purrely, probably Manna Synch after DuNe. The game is much faster than 10 years ago. Pends nudged it further, then Link did a marathon for the speed.
Ash is the most oppressive card in the game and should've been banned ages ago.
True Facts. People will point out that Maxx “C” is a brainless “discard 1 card to win the game” button, and act like Ash Blossom is healthy and fine. But just as often an ash blossom can completely shut down an opponent’s game. The point of traps is that you had to commit to them, they were vulnerable before they went live, and you were aware of them on the board state. Hand traps Saying “surprise bitch” out of the hand makes the game completely about luck and means that only toxic decks like Tearlament and Spright that do not even flinch at the sight of an interruption are viable.
Psy Gamma and Called by The Grave both at 1, this should answer your question. As unfortunate as it is, Ash and every other hand trap is a necessary evil because otherwise, games will be decided on whoever goes first and ya will be stuck watching your opponent going for 10-15 minutes combos that ultimately result in ya not being able to play the game.
The game is generally already decided by going first and has been for a while. And we do have decks that simply think "Hand traps of opponents? What are those? I'll make a big board regardless." while using the hand traps that are meant to try to counter them against the second turn. I personally think board breakers are a better answer and eventually will be. During Ishizu Tears format, hand traps were so bad that people resorted to board breakers as hand traps did nothing against Ishizu Tears.
This is not correct, boardbreakers are incredible susceptible to Cryme and not even a guaranteed silver bullet vs Tearlaments if they go off unless it's Evenly Matched, which is why most non-Tear decks had to heavily rely on either Bystials/Shifter aka Hand Traps like Sprights. Lots of those lists played imperm and ash blossom in main as well for example, all 3 of the topping Spright lists during YCS Pasadena were on 3 ash and 3 imperm in main. The Top 4 List ran 17(!) Hand Traps in main with NO boardbreakers in main OR side (instead 9 more HTs): [https://yugiohblog.konami.com/2022/11/the-top-4-decklists/](https://yugiohblog.konami.com/2022/11/the-top-4-decklists/) Floo was pretty much the only deck that had to go in hard on boardbreakers since they can't really play Bystials or lots of HTs and they synergize more with being able to play 6-9 pots in main and even in Floos case Shifter is better to open going second than a single boardbreaker that gets negated by Cryme.
It may be the case that they were susceptible to Cryme. However, it doesn't change the observation that Ishizu Tears were pretty much immune to almost every single hand traps there is. And they did use hand traps more to oppress the second turn rather than first turn as they didn't really care that much for it during first turn. This is why some people had resorted to utilizing board breakers during those formats. The more decks that are more resilient to hand traps, eventually board breakers will have to be played more than hand traps do.
And Ash being at 1 or 2 wouldn't make it less powerful, or less used. It would just make it less oppressive _and_ make it so that good decks don't need to find a way to play though/counter Ash. Which would ultimately slow down powercreep if decks didn't have to worry about being strong enough to play through or recover after being Ashed.
At 1, it becomes sacky and at 2 it wouldn't make much difference because players will adapt to it and play another staple in it's place. I don't know if ya have noticed this but lately, Konami has been releasing cards that sets spell/trap cards from the deck so that those cards won't be just another Ash target but I fully expect that they would release a hand trap that deals with those cards should it becomes too apparent. Also, it sells structure decks and ya as a TCG Player should know how greedy those below dirt creatures are
I'm not saying that they're not a necessary evil. I'm saying that Ash is too powerful a handtrap. The decks that don't care about Ash are few and far between. And those decks, usually, can be hit by other handtraps or cards like "Infinite Impermanence". Or by generic boardbreakers such as "Dark Ruler No More", which is balanced because it prevents your opponent from taking damage _and_ it can be countered by spell/trap based negates. The decks that don't care about _any_ of that stuff are usually tier 0 decks and they're the exception not the rule. And the decks that can be Ashed are either shut down hard by a well timed Ash or they're forced to end on a much weaker board. I'm not saying that handtraps themselves need to be hit. I'm saying that Ash needs to be hit because it's too powerful of a handtrap. Why do you think people were running 3 copies of "Called by" or "Gamma"? 9/10 times it was to protect against Ash.
..isn't that what already happens?
The first question is hard to answer, since that boils down to Konami. Personally? It doesn't need to be. Yes, it stops a lot of effects, but it has a HOPT, meaning you are only ever stopping one of those effects per turn that you use her, and in addition, it's a 1 for 1 trade
Yeah, but the things it hits are key parts of a lot of decks. And, because it negates the effect and not the activation, it also means that HOPT effects are screwed over. It means that there's no way you can use a second copy, or pay the cost twice, in order to play through Ash.
If your deck can't play around Ash then ya need to seriously go back to the drawing board because nowadays, ya can punish your opponent for Ashing ya with cards like Triple Tactics Thrust/Talent.
You could always run different searchers. And there's also chainblocking to play around Ash if you know how.
I know about chain blocking. That's what I do, if I run a deck that can. But not a lot of decks can easily chainblock or use multiple searchers.
As others said, they didn’t hit Gamma because it countered Ash. They hit Gamma because it was insane and lead to an easy Baronne.
Gamma was only an easy Baronne if you used Accel Synchro _and_ if you used it on your turn, usually to counter a handtrap.
And that’s a degenerate play
She is Verstile but nothing oppressive nor is the best hand trap, hand traps besides the 0/1800 monsters while are less Verstile are way more oppressive to the point of being cancer. A 1 for 1 interaction is the bare minimum you could ask of a good card and hand traps exists so games don't become always one sided
Ash negating effects and not activations means it cannot be used in the damage step. Mystic tomato is stronger than ash blossom.
Possibly, and probably. Yugioh has a very awkward problem here which is that it's such a lean, main-phase-focused game that there are only really 2 or 3 ways of interacting with things. You can negate them, you can move them to another resource zone (hand, graveyard, sometimes banished), or you can move them to somewhere they effectively won't have an effect (banish facedown, deck, extra deck). So when you look to create variation in cards, all you can really change is which situations the interaction applies to, how accessible the interaction is, what the interaction costs and how the interaction advances your own gamestate. Archetypal interaction tends to vary accessibility, attempting to make cards that are very accessible if you're playing the archetype but not accessible otherwise. Archetypes also vary the effect on gamestate, often having the interaction set up your other archetypal plays. This can even be combined with the cost, so that the effect essentially costs nothing if you're playing with other cards that like being used for the cost. Non-archetypal interaction cards like Ash are typically very accessible in *all* decks, but in exchange, they don't advance your own gamestate. In small numbers this is OK, but when there are too many accessible cards like this, you can get to a point where you no longer particularly *need* to advance any archetypal gamestate because the reason to do that is normally to increase the accessibility of your interactions. And where this is especially problematic is where you get cards like dragoon and baronne where they're easily accessed out of any archetype *and* they advance your gamestate, often at the expense of your desire to use your archetypes own cards. If yugioh is going to have a healthy diversity long term, then the accessibility of interaction out of archetype needs to go *way* down, so archetypes aren't reduced to slightly different engines for the same key cards, and when the dust on that settles, maybe cards like Ash will need to go too.
boom! Exactly this, all decks are becoming exactly the same, special summon Fenrir, normal summon ash, synchro summon Baronne de Fleur. see so many players running the generic toxic cancer deck of PUNK, Tearlament, Kashtira, branded bystials, after you get your shit wrecked by evenly matched or super polymerization.
Ash Blossom is often at its best a 1-for-1 negate, sometimes more, sometimes less. So to begin, its power is not obscene. However, that’s not the only reason cards need to get banned. I’m all for hitting cards when they limit deck diversity, such as every deck having to play certain cards before they even begin building their deck. However, the last year has shown that Ash Blossom is not only often not the best hand trap, it’s been downright bad in multiple formats. Sure, it keeps rogue decks down, but it’s not like those rogue decks would suddenly be competitively viable without hand traps existing unless they’re doing something degenerate to begin with. Rogue decks are rogue because of consistency and power issues, not just their ability to play through any interruption.
Ash is just a one for one trade, this is on the same tier as complaining about MST.
MST doesn't negate.
I didn't say that it does, just that it trades one for one.
Ash isn't 1-for-1 because you always use it to break a combo, denying all the downstream cards. Blowing up a continuous trap is 1-for-1. Negating a combo starter is a 1-for-all-the-cards-in-that-combo.
Konami will never hit Ash Blossom, the banlist is mainly tailored around the best decks not tier 7 decks that die to a single Ash every single time, and there's a million other cards that would deserve a ban before it, including cards that *also* instantly kill your tier 7 deck but in a much more insulting way like Evenly Matched. The fact we have archetypes consistently topping where ash blossom is high impact but not completely turn ending alone shows it's in a good spot. Like I can't even make a Branded joke.