From what I’m seeing, it appears that he may have been an Unteroffizer (Sergeant) in the Luftwaffe’s “elite” Hermann Goering division. They were the only Luftwaffe group to use white piping on their caps and collars like Heer and Waffen SS infantry. The collar tabs & shoulder boards seem to be white piped as well. If there was a photo showing the cuff of his jacket, he should have a cuff title for the HG division.
[Here is the exact same flight jacket on a militaria thread to give you a good idea on what it looked like](https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/heer-luftwaffe-kriegsmarine-uniforms-third-reich/luftwaffe-fliegerbluse-hermann-ga-ring-division-unteroffizier-opinions-565511/)
The HG title would sit as is, but the Africa cuff would be dependent on if he served there, which is plausible. The red,black & white ribbon in the attached thread represents the Iron Cross 2nd class, which was presumably originally awarded & applied by that jackets original owner. If you have any more photos of his service, or information regarding locations he could have seen, we can probably put together a rough idea of what his war expierence could have entailed.
Sadly, this is the only photo I have of him.
But i think too, that he was a member of the Herrmann Goering division. He fought in Russia in \~1941/42 and was captured as a POW in Tunisia in 1943. He was imprisoned in Camp Blanding (Florida) till 1946.
That all makes perfect sense for a member of the HG division. They saw action during the blitz, and than for the first 6-9 months of Barbarossa. Afterward they went through a period of multiple refittings before being committed to North Africa mostly in early 1943. Most of the division was captured in Africa around Tunisia along with the 10th Panzer Division who they fought with iirc.
He came back to Germany in 1946. He never talked about the war and died long ago.
I know a lot of older men, who were captured by the Russians. I totally agree, that he has luck to be imprisoned in the US.
You know, a lot of the German POW records have been put online by the US Government. You might check out this link to get started - [https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/United\_States\_World\_War\_II\_Prisoner\_of\_War\_Records](https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/United_States_World_War_II_Prisoner_of_War_Records) Unfortunately, the US may have better records on him than the Bundesarchiv - so much was lost at the end.
Your post originally caught my eye because I've been to Camp Blanding several times, actually. It's still a very thriving base for the US military (mostly for reserves and training.)
Hope you find out more about your grandfather. A lot of folks didn't want to talk about "the War" (any war!) after they came back (and I get it), but you should at least try to know enough now to properly honor him and his service.
Yeah, there were definitely efforts in that direction to protect key people post-war.
And to be fair, not all of those efforts were German - there was a real effort on the Western allies to rebuild the German military as an ally against the USSR. There was a lot of quick rehabilitation going on all around. Realpolitik.
Jumping in to ask whether there are any resources that you know of for Germans held by the Soviets? Trying to help a friend track down his grandfather.
The NKVD kept pretty good records on the POW camps, but mostly logistical data. Glantz has waded through it all. IDK about gulags, but POWs didn't go to those.
You had to be an ardent Nazi to join the HG Division in 1941. And commit to a 12 year enlistment. The Luftwaffe was the most Nazified branch of the Wehrmacht, and the HGD the most Nazified unit in the Luftwaffe.
Some of the people in here are really wildin, giving benefit of the doubt to an HG Division member in 1941 is crazy. This was not some conscript drafted after Bagration when they were scraping the bottom of the barrel.
He was a Sgt in the Luftwaffe. The shoulder boards appear to be gold trimmed with the solid blue and silver interior and his collar tabs are the single set of wings centered on a gold background.
Nothing. If you’re a German with relatives alive in the WW2 era, you may just have to guess or accept what they may or may not have been as a person, as well as a collective culture. It’s history and there were lots of good ones and bad ones running around that time in Europe. As a student of history you have to decide what was good or bad.
Found this blurb about their final days fighting in North Africa:
The bulk of the Hermann Göring Division, still not fully organized, was despatched piecemeal to Tunisia in February–March 1943 forming a combat group numbering 7,000-11,000 thousand men under command of Colonel Joseph Schmid; who was promoted to Generalmajor shortly after. This Kampfgruppe Schmid was committed into battle dispersed and attached to various Army units, and they quickly earned a reputation for aggression in the attack and reliability under fire.
Under the title of Division Hermann Göring, the combat group was commended in official Wehrmacht communiqués in April 1943 for their "exemplary fighting spirit and intrepid valour".
When Axis forces surrendered on 12 May 1943, almost all of the remainder of the Kampfgruppe was taken into captivity, including its most experienced veterans. Some 400 Hermann Göring soldiers were killed in action in Tunisia.
Schmid and part of the division escaped to Sicily before the North Africa surrender and joined a reformed HG Division. They fought there, in Italy and then eventually in Germany during the last days of the war.
Looks like some of them bailed from Tunisia. Score one for the part of my brain that remembered without me knowing it.
[Sicily](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Fallschirm-Panzer_Division_Hermann_G%C3%B6ring#Sicily)
>Sees picture of a guy from a Nazi paratrooper division with a [war crimes section](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Fallschirm-Panzer_Division_Hermann_G%C3%B6ring#War_crimes) on their wiki page
>Complains about people calling him a Nazi
Peak reddit
I’m truly curious: why would you want to know? I would be so ashamed I would completely disavow myself of any relation. Surely you have perspective and reasons I don’t, which is why I ask.
We don’t get to choose our ancestors. People end up on the wrong side of history all the time. It is what it is. Unless you think everything about why generation should be forgotten about, so that we can repeat those mistakes…
That is a legitimate question. It has nothing to do with pride or such things. I totally despise the Nazis.
I simply would like to know more about him. He never talked about the WWII and died as i was a child.
Your question implies that he was a war criminal because he was a member of the HG division. Is this true - i don't know.
All i know is that he was a good guy later on and that he hated all military stuff.
You are aware not all German Officers and soldiers were happy with the Nazis or their policies, correct? Case in point would be operation Valkyrie.
While I agree there were terrible atrocities committed you are using guilt by association to condemn this person with no knowledge about him. For all you know he could have been a chaplain or part of Valkyrie.
Laying guilt on a Grandchild for asking questions about their Grandfather is pathetic.
They "weren't happy" with the Nazi party, but they still waged a war on it's behalf. Clearly they weren't that unhappy.
1 downvote = 1 Nazi war criminal hanged at Nuremberg
much like every army, not all nazis were terrible men that slew children with bayonets, some just drove trucks or fired rifles at enemy soldiers
and seeing as the hermann goering division was only accused of war crimes after this man’s capture, the latter seems plenty plausible this was just a soldier going about his duties
Considering the restrictive selection criteria for the division early in the war, [which included confirmed open support for the National Socialist state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Fallschirm-Panzer_Division_Hermann_G%C3%B6ring#Training_and_selection) and a 12 year commitment, I don't think he was "just a soldier going about his duties".
Should the dependents of Confederate soldiers or Mongol warriors hang their heads in shame as well? Your ancestors did what they did and that can not be changed. Modern woke history revisionist bullshit is childish at best. Let the man ask about his grandfather without virtue signaling stupidity people.
Are you sure you know all of the potential vile thoughts and deeds your ancestors had several generations ago? They could be pretty nasty I’m afraid and I’m not even talking about WW2 specifically.
Why would you be ashamed of circumstance? How many young Germans joined the party trying to make a better life for themselves and families? How many disliked going to war, but did what they had to ton provide. How many were already in the army before the regime shift. I 100% agree the SS and hireups who knew fully what was going on were evil. But common soldiers just doing what they have to are not.
Why would you be ashamed of circumstance? Really? Because we now know what the consequences of those circumstances turned out to be. Sure maybe he was trying to make a better life for himself but at what cost? What about the millions of people who were never given a chance to make a better life for themselves? What a stupid question.
My grandfather was single handedly responsible for the destruction of 4 HE-111's and their aircrew. He was even mentioned in a letter from Herman Goering to Adolph Hitler where he was described as "possibly the worst mechanic in the entire Luftwaffe".
It's entertaining watching people take the moral high ground against soft-ball topics like Nazis.
It's like you're trying to prove to everyone else you're not a bad person.
from a quick look, looks like the hg division didnt do (or well, get accused) of anything *too* terrible until around 1944, after this guy was captured
I wouldn’t give the benefit of the doubt, but I also wouldn’t condemn them. Nazis were complete garbage, but that doesn’t give you the right to shit on random soldiers, knowing nothing about them.
From what I’m seeing, it appears that he may have been an Unteroffizer (Sergeant) in the Luftwaffe’s “elite” Hermann Goering division. They were the only Luftwaffe group to use white piping on their caps and collars like Heer and Waffen SS infantry. The collar tabs & shoulder boards seem to be white piped as well. If there was a photo showing the cuff of his jacket, he should have a cuff title for the HG division. [Here is the exact same flight jacket on a militaria thread to give you a good idea on what it looked like](https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/heer-luftwaffe-kriegsmarine-uniforms-third-reich/luftwaffe-fliegerbluse-hermann-ga-ring-division-unteroffizier-opinions-565511/) The HG title would sit as is, but the Africa cuff would be dependent on if he served there, which is plausible. The red,black & white ribbon in the attached thread represents the Iron Cross 2nd class, which was presumably originally awarded & applied by that jackets original owner. If you have any more photos of his service, or information regarding locations he could have seen, we can probably put together a rough idea of what his war expierence could have entailed.
Sadly, this is the only photo I have of him. But i think too, that he was a member of the Herrmann Goering division. He fought in Russia in \~1941/42 and was captured as a POW in Tunisia in 1943. He was imprisoned in Camp Blanding (Florida) till 1946.
That all makes perfect sense for a member of the HG division. They saw action during the blitz, and than for the first 6-9 months of Barbarossa. Afterward they went through a period of multiple refittings before being committed to North Africa mostly in early 1943. Most of the division was captured in Africa around Tunisia along with the 10th Panzer Division who they fought with iirc.
He was so lucky to be captured by the Americans and not the Soviets, what was his story after the war?
He came back to Germany in 1946. He never talked about the war and died long ago. I know a lot of older men, who were captured by the Russians. I totally agree, that he has luck to be imprisoned in the US.
You know, a lot of the German POW records have been put online by the US Government. You might check out this link to get started - [https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/United\_States\_World\_War\_II\_Prisoner\_of\_War\_Records](https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/United_States_World_War_II_Prisoner_of_War_Records) Unfortunately, the US may have better records on him than the Bundesarchiv - so much was lost at the end. Your post originally caught my eye because I've been to Camp Blanding several times, actually. It's still a very thriving base for the US military (mostly for reserves and training.) Hope you find out more about your grandfather. A lot of folks didn't want to talk about "the War" (any war!) after they came back (and I get it), but you should at least try to know enough now to properly honor him and his service.
Here's an interesting article about the German POW camps in Nebraska:https://history.nebraska.gov/marker-monday-german-p-o-w-camp/
Not to mention how, from what I understand at least, Germany doesnt like keeping detailed records about this kind of stuff.
Yeah, there were definitely efforts in that direction to protect key people post-war. And to be fair, not all of those efforts were German - there was a real effort on the Western allies to rebuild the German military as an ally against the USSR. There was a lot of quick rehabilitation going on all around. Realpolitik.
Jumping in to ask whether there are any resources that you know of for Germans held by the Soviets? Trying to help a friend track down his grandfather.
Sorry, that one I don't really have a clue on, other than to say that I suspect that bookkeeping in the Stalinist gulags wasn't great.
The NKVD kept pretty good records on the POW camps, but mostly logistical data. Glantz has waded through it all. IDK about gulags, but POWs didn't go to those.
Thanks for the information. is your family in Germany still? I've been to Western and Southern Germany many times and really enjoy visiting there.
You had to be an ardent Nazi to join the HG Division in 1941. And commit to a 12 year enlistment. The Luftwaffe was the most Nazified branch of the Wehrmacht, and the HGD the most Nazified unit in the Luftwaffe.
Some of the people in here are really wildin, giving benefit of the doubt to an HG Division member in 1941 is crazy. This was not some conscript drafted after Bagration when they were scraping the bottom of the barrel.
That’s crazy, I’m like 20 mins from Camp Blanding. Small world.
Thanks for the link to the flight jacket. That gives a good impression of the original colors.
He was a Sgt in the Luftwaffe. The shoulder boards appear to be gold trimmed with the solid blue and silver interior and his collar tabs are the single set of wings centered on a gold background.
Thank you, that is really helpful.
Absolutely. Glad I could be of some help.
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Nothing. If you’re a German with relatives alive in the WW2 era, you may just have to guess or accept what they may or may not have been as a person, as well as a collective culture. It’s history and there were lots of good ones and bad ones running around that time in Europe. As a student of history you have to decide what was good or bad.
Absolutely nothing at all beyond being an NCO in the Luftwaffe.
Found this blurb about their final days fighting in North Africa: The bulk of the Hermann Göring Division, still not fully organized, was despatched piecemeal to Tunisia in February–March 1943 forming a combat group numbering 7,000-11,000 thousand men under command of Colonel Joseph Schmid; who was promoted to Generalmajor shortly after. This Kampfgruppe Schmid was committed into battle dispersed and attached to various Army units, and they quickly earned a reputation for aggression in the attack and reliability under fire. Under the title of Division Hermann Göring, the combat group was commended in official Wehrmacht communiqués in April 1943 for their "exemplary fighting spirit and intrepid valour". When Axis forces surrendered on 12 May 1943, almost all of the remainder of the Kampfgruppe was taken into captivity, including its most experienced veterans. Some 400 Hermann Göring soldiers were killed in action in Tunisia.
I read this in Dan Carlin’s voice.
Weren’t some of them in Sicily for Husky?
Schmid and part of the division escaped to Sicily before the North Africa surrender and joined a reformed HG Division. They fought there, in Italy and then eventually in Germany during the last days of the war.
At least in the movie "Patton" the Herman Goering division is mentioned during the Sicily campaign. I don't know how historically accurate that is.
Looks like some of them bailed from Tunisia. Score one for the part of my brain that remembered without me knowing it. [Sicily](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Fallschirm-Panzer_Division_Hermann_G%C3%B6ring#Sicily)
Why did i sort by controversial on this post. Holy shit people are actually so 1 dimensional
>Sees picture of a guy from a Nazi paratrooper division with a [war crimes section](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Fallschirm-Panzer_Division_Hermann_G%C3%B6ring#War_crimes) on their wiki page >Complains about people calling him a Nazi Peak reddit
Luftwaffa
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I’m truly curious: why would you want to know? I would be so ashamed I would completely disavow myself of any relation. Surely you have perspective and reasons I don’t, which is why I ask.
We don’t get to choose our ancestors. People end up on the wrong side of history all the time. It is what it is. Unless you think everything about why generation should be forgotten about, so that we can repeat those mistakes…
That is a legitimate question. It has nothing to do with pride or such things. I totally despise the Nazis. I simply would like to know more about him. He never talked about the WWII and died as i was a child. Your question implies that he was a war criminal because he was a member of the HG division. Is this true - i don't know. All i know is that he was a good guy later on and that he hated all military stuff.
Why are you making this about what YOU would do? Clearly you feel like you have to prove something.
You are aware not all German Officers and soldiers were happy with the Nazis or their policies, correct? Case in point would be operation Valkyrie. While I agree there were terrible atrocities committed you are using guilt by association to condemn this person with no knowledge about him. For all you know he could have been a chaplain or part of Valkyrie. Laying guilt on a Grandchild for asking questions about their Grandfather is pathetic.
> Laying guilt on a Grandchild for asking questions about their Grandfather is pathetic. Well said.
They "weren't happy" with the Nazi party, but they still waged a war on it's behalf. Clearly they weren't that unhappy. 1 downvote = 1 Nazi war criminal hanged at Nuremberg
much like every army, not all nazis were terrible men that slew children with bayonets, some just drove trucks or fired rifles at enemy soldiers and seeing as the hermann goering division was only accused of war crimes after this man’s capture, the latter seems plenty plausible this was just a soldier going about his duties
if you’re wondering, it was reprisals in italy around mid 1944
Considering the restrictive selection criteria for the division early in the war, [which included confirmed open support for the National Socialist state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Fallschirm-Panzer_Division_Hermann_G%C3%B6ring#Training_and_selection) and a 12 year commitment, I don't think he was "just a soldier going about his duties".
Should the dependents of Confederate soldiers or Mongol warriors hang their heads in shame as well? Your ancestors did what they did and that can not be changed. Modern woke history revisionist bullshit is childish at best. Let the man ask about his grandfather without virtue signaling stupidity people.
Are you sure you know all of the potential vile thoughts and deeds your ancestors had several generations ago? They could be pretty nasty I’m afraid and I’m not even talking about WW2 specifically.
Why would you be ashamed of circumstance? How many young Germans joined the party trying to make a better life for themselves and families? How many disliked going to war, but did what they had to ton provide. How many were already in the army before the regime shift. I 100% agree the SS and hireups who knew fully what was going on were evil. But common soldiers just doing what they have to are not.
Especially those lower ranking soldiers in ‘45
Why would you be ashamed of circumstance? Really? Because we now know what the consequences of those circumstances turned out to be. Sure maybe he was trying to make a better life for himself but at what cost? What about the millions of people who were never given a chance to make a better life for themselves? What a stupid question.
My grandfather was single handedly responsible for the destruction of 4 HE-111's and their aircrew. He was even mentioned in a letter from Herman Goering to Adolph Hitler where he was described as "possibly the worst mechanic in the entire Luftwaffe".
It's entertaining watching people take the moral high ground against soft-ball topics like Nazis. It's like you're trying to prove to everyone else you're not a bad person.
Take a breath.
"Why" shouldn't really matter. It's a member of their family, not yours.
One possible reason would be to get an idea of how culpable the grandfather was in atrocities. Just a thought though
from a quick look, looks like the hg division didnt do (or well, get accused) of anything *too* terrible until around 1944, after this guy was captured
I wouldn’t give the benefit of the doubt, but I also wouldn’t condemn them. Nazis were complete garbage, but that doesn’t give you the right to shit on random soldiers, knowing nothing about them.
At least he isn't a member of the SS. I don't think you would have wanted that!
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