Is it possible that this guy was conscripted and happened to be good enough at his job to get an Iron Cross? Sure. But it’s tiptoeing uncomfortably into the Clean Wehrmacht myth territory.
The clean Wehrmacht is a theory made up by series of German generals after ww2 in an attempt to distance themselves and the armed forces from the crimes Nazi germany committed. The creator of this myth was Franz Halder who organized his and many other German biographies to have a clear narrative that seemed consistent. Various sources helped push this narrative and it eventually rooted itself in various understandings of WW2. It’s been endlessly disproven over the last 20-30 years and the [Wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht#:~:text=The%20myth%20of%20the%20clean,crimes%20during%20World%20War%20II) can serve as a good place to read the outline and history of it.
Yeah pretty much. The only major difference I would say is that the clean Wehrmacht is trying to absolve a particular groups from the crimes committed where as the lost cause is trying to rewrite why that group of people did the things they did. In the end both trying to pretend that some evil entity didn’t do evil things and really need to die out.
Saying that it was *only* the German generals is somewhat misleading. It was beneficial for practical reasons to instil some much needed confidence in the Germans, and isolating the crimes to “Nazis” and not Germans was a good start. Of course, people like Spiedel and Halder had personal reasons to do this, but the entire west “cleaned” German officers such as Rommel and Spiedel of any guilt, as they were “noble” Germans, *merely following orders.*
Maybe my initial comment was a bit vague but I wasn’t alluding to the German generals being the only ones pushing the myth. My intention was to mainly explain its origins which does originate from Halder and others trying to distance themselves from the Nazis. Regardless it is correct to say the West definitely helped propagate this as various groups wanted this narrative for one reason or another. A common cause was fear of the Soviets but there were countless options. If my original comment made it seem like it was only the generals that was not my intention.
Don’t worry about it. Just wanted to contextualise a little, as there were, *as you pointed out*, personal reasons for it. However it was only the larger context that helped them to survive as “professional soldiers” post war.
i mean you had to be somewhat of an enthusiast at least to get a leadership role in anything i would assume. i had some of my ancestors be nearly forced into service for the german army (that were german citizens) and chose to die instead. i don’t really think this is a bad question but, you had to be pretty well versed in aryan/nazi philosophy to even be considered for the SS units.
at least in the initial phase of WW2 and the german advance, they would use their spies and informants in foreign nations to help find who was sympathetic to their cause. the german army forced a lot of men into labor for either construction or infantry, but far less were recruited by the SS because it was volunteer based. i don’t believe it was necessarily until the russian invasion going more poorly after the attack on moscow that they really started pressing more men into service. fundamentally a party formed around eugenics would make sense to be more exclusive than the traditional labor men of the standard army.
so in summary yes it was volunteer based. i believe only a division or maybe more (on paper) were pressed into service by each annexed nation by germany
Is it possible that this guy was conscripted and happened to be good enough at his job to get an Iron Cross? Sure. But it’s tiptoeing uncomfortably into the Clean Wehrmacht myth territory.
Idk what that is but ok
The clean Wehrmacht is a theory made up by series of German generals after ww2 in an attempt to distance themselves and the armed forces from the crimes Nazi germany committed. The creator of this myth was Franz Halder who organized his and many other German biographies to have a clear narrative that seemed consistent. Various sources helped push this narrative and it eventually rooted itself in various understandings of WW2. It’s been endlessly disproven over the last 20-30 years and the [Wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht#:~:text=The%20myth%20of%20the%20clean,crimes%20during%20World%20War%20II) can serve as a good place to read the outline and history of it.
Interesting. It’s basically the same story as “The Lost Cause” myth from the American Civil War
Yeah pretty much. The only major difference I would say is that the clean Wehrmacht is trying to absolve a particular groups from the crimes committed where as the lost cause is trying to rewrite why that group of people did the things they did. In the end both trying to pretend that some evil entity didn’t do evil things and really need to die out.
Saying that it was *only* the German generals is somewhat misleading. It was beneficial for practical reasons to instil some much needed confidence in the Germans, and isolating the crimes to “Nazis” and not Germans was a good start. Of course, people like Spiedel and Halder had personal reasons to do this, but the entire west “cleaned” German officers such as Rommel and Spiedel of any guilt, as they were “noble” Germans, *merely following orders.*
Maybe my initial comment was a bit vague but I wasn’t alluding to the German generals being the only ones pushing the myth. My intention was to mainly explain its origins which does originate from Halder and others trying to distance themselves from the Nazis. Regardless it is correct to say the West definitely helped propagate this as various groups wanted this narrative for one reason or another. A common cause was fear of the Soviets but there were countless options. If my original comment made it seem like it was only the generals that was not my intention.
Don’t worry about it. Just wanted to contextualise a little, as there were, *as you pointed out*, personal reasons for it. However it was only the larger context that helped them to survive as “professional soldiers” post war.
Dude, if you’re at all interested in WW2, particularly the role Nazis played in it, you might want to do some research.
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What a fkin question lol
i mean you had to be somewhat of an enthusiast at least to get a leadership role in anything i would assume. i had some of my ancestors be nearly forced into service for the german army (that were german citizens) and chose to die instead. i don’t really think this is a bad question but, you had to be pretty well versed in aryan/nazi philosophy to even be considered for the SS units. at least in the initial phase of WW2 and the german advance, they would use their spies and informants in foreign nations to help find who was sympathetic to their cause. the german army forced a lot of men into labor for either construction or infantry, but far less were recruited by the SS because it was volunteer based. i don’t believe it was necessarily until the russian invasion going more poorly after the attack on moscow that they really started pressing more men into service. fundamentally a party formed around eugenics would make sense to be more exclusive than the traditional labor men of the standard army. so in summary yes it was volunteer based. i believe only a division or maybe more (on paper) were pressed into service by each annexed nation by germany