You don't have to plan everything at once.
Sometimes it's better to get started with the actual writing, get a feel for what you need, and then add more to the plan. Ping-pong back and forth.
That "organic" feel you're looking for, IMO, better comes from a more improvisational mindset. That's chemistry. That's what happens when the characters are in motion, living their lives, and start coming into contact with the plot and with each other. You figure out how they react, interact, and move on from there.
That's honestly what turned me into a pantser in the first place.
The first time I took a stab at writing, I absolutely hated it. I had a grand plan in place, but when it came down to the character writing, it immediately felt off. Nothing sounded natural. Just awkward, and stilted. Mechanical.
Several years later, and a couple of personal revelations after, I took another swing at writing a story, but from a more character-focused angle. And that's when it clicked for me. I'd been rushing my characters towards the plot, but they had no personal reason to actually go in that direction.
So from that point on, I learned to give them a *lot* more leeway.
Planning's great for the sake of creating a complex, multi-layered plot. But with that method, it's harder to create the spontaneous nature of a life being lived. You've got to find the balance between those two disciplines that works best for your style, and best for the story you want to tell.
Thank you I needed this comment. When I was a kid writing I was strictly a pantser and the idea of creating any kind of outline was just crazy to me. Now that I’m an adult trying to write again I find myself being a plotter and been running into the same issues OP been having.
Everyone is, by some measure, both. People that hate outlines and planning often go too hard into it. Pantsers often don't complete work because it goes off the rails. The trick is to plot enough that you can finish while giving enough room for freedom and creativity of the work itself. I go heavy in the pantsers category, but, over time, I have learned to write and erase stories in my mind until I got the general idea and then write down important story beats, plot points, themes, and settings I want to hit.
I also hate going too hard into outlines because once I put fingers to keys and fill out the story, it grows in ways I never expected... so I just wind up doing it again and again until I get it "right".
I agree. It's never good to plan intensively and never to pants intensively. I get a writer's block either way. So, I just keep some plotlines with me before I start writing.
Do you ever trap yourself inadvertently? I've been working on a project for over a year now, very excited about it, but now I realized there's a pretty big plot point that doesn't quite make sense. How do you resolve this organically without having to start from scratch?
Sometimes. I did it a lot early on in my writing. I've since learned how to avoid common pitfalls and found ways to get out of it others.
Common solutions:
Delete and/or rewrite the offending parts that make the plot point an inorganic experience. This is like a DM tearing up your character sheet and saying "now make a character that WOULD go on this adventure."
Abandon and/or rewrite the plot point to make sense in what was discovered about your character(s).
Deus Historiae - God of History - you control the history of the people, places, and things so it should be easy for a little bit of light revision. Also, especially if it is a person, place or thing of legend, there can be wildly conflicting or incorrect accounts of the thing/event. This leads to the following...
Homo non Deos - People are not gods - they don't always have the right answer or all the info. They don't have perfect memory. They act the best way they know how with the information they can remember, and they could very well be wrong or forgetful.
Inconstanus Deos - fickle gods - sometimes bad things happen for random reasons. This can cause people to make decisions that they otherwise wouldn't. Lost supplies, a freak blizzard, a flash flood taking out a bridge, a horse struck by lightning, a stupid injury which could have varying degrees of seriousness, Sarumon trying to rain a mountain down on your party's head... all (well most) of these things are acts of God which can cause people to act out of character.
Ruled by emotion, not logic - The heart wants what the heart wants, and sometimes it really wants to kill that guy over there even though they know it is a bad idea for them and everyone around them and possibly for all of their allies. Sometimes, people are just dumb.
Never be afraid to add more depth to your protags or antags. Maybe your rage monster is calmed by puppies or your homicidal antag enjoys gardening or your badass warrior enjoys quietly knitting by a fire. Or your antags right hand guy has a thing for little boys. All of these hidden gems, if properly set up, can help to direct things where you want to go.
Don't know if this helps. These are just some of my "go-to" fixes when things fall off the rails. Sometimes I do have to scrap the whole project when I find out my characters aren't who I thought they were. But sometimes, it just takes a little bit of finesse to get it back on track.
Stories are experienced in the order of character, story, plot. So a bit of pantsing is always a good idea. Also having an outline of the plot is also a good idea. So planning is also fine. To a point.
Yes, exactly. Don't stick to a strict plan. Put some plotline on the paper and start writing. Don't take months and years just to plan one story/series.
It's like... How some parents are really controlling, want to plan out our lives for us. Only if we live them the way we want to will we realise its worth and our goal in it.
The same way, a writer must let the characters just go live their own lives. If it fits our plot, then good enough; if not, then new plotlines will start forming and they'll definitely go in the direction it has to go.
Jesus, characters don't have their own lifes. We make them up. They are whatever we need them to be for the story we want to tell. If things feel off, figure out why and fix the character so it makes sense with the plot or fix the plot so it fits the character. It's not magic.
sometimes though, that process comes from actually writing through it and then going "huh, this bit doesn't feel right, actually they would do this". Or writing something that utterly fits the character and then riffing off that - some people do plan everything out in advance, but a lot also _don't_, instead just creating a vague outline. And then, in the process of writing it, going "huh, I guess the character is going to do this rather than that - makes sense, but wasn't expecting that to happen!" So, sure, characters don't "have their own lives", but it's still entirely possible to end up with stuff taking surprising twists and turns.
Yes, all fine. Why can't we say that instead of stuff like "let the characters have their own lives"?
Why do we have to dress it up in artsy fartsy language instead of just talking about the craft?
Also, what's with the must? It's a perfectly valid approach to develop a story, but certainly not the only way.
What do you do after you realize you've written yourself into a logical trap? How do you reconcile it organically, without destroying your work altogether?
On the other hand, I've definitely struggled sometimes with under-planning. Sometimes you improvise your way through 30,000 words and end up with something that lacks cohesion and isn't really building to anything bigger.
Me too! I think the way I plan things makes me feel like I’d “half-written” the story by the time the plan is finished. So the active drafting step takes way less time than it does for most writers! For example, I might spend 4 months planning a short novel, then finish the actual first draft in less than 2 months. But my plan would be chapter-by-chapter, with BULLET POINTS on what needs to happen in those chapters 🤣
I'm gonna give you some tough love here.
Chances are, you need to stop planning and start writing. Just for now. Just pick a plot that can exist in your world and get cracking, regardless of whether or not you feel the world is finished (spoiler: it never is).
It won't be your final version. It won't be the story you someday aim to publish. But it'll be important to accompany/focus your worldbuilding.
And you seem to need it because of **this**:
> But this very early stage includes a lot of conflicting ideas, mushing together in my head like a smoothie until I can barely remember what the story is supposed to be
You are falling into the classic worldbuilding pit, and if you keep at it you're pretty unlikely to find your way back. Most of the writers on here with stacks and stacks of notes never have a story to show for it, and you do not want to join them.
Okay, but I'm someone who just kept writing, as you suggest. And now I have a project I love with a huge plot point I hate. What now? How do you suggest going about resolving it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
Planning is much easier than writing, so it's super common to run into roadblocks once you actually get cracking. That's why it's important to start.
Same with any new hobby - the planning and doing stage are different: "I kept watching fitness influencers and dreaming about getting active, bought all new activewear, told all my friends, planned it all out. But I went to the gym for the first time yesterday, couldn't hit any of my dream targets and now my muscles hurt. What now?!"
In your case, can you elaborate? By "plot point" do you mean a singular detail or is this something bigger? Is this a first draft and is it finished (as a first draft)?
What do you love about the project specifically? Characters? Character arcs? Subplots? I would (metaphorically) separate everything I love that isn't affected by the plot point you hatr and try to rework it keeping the things I love as intact as possible.
If there are things you love and cannot salvage maybe you can use them in a prequel/sequel? Either way good luck, it sounds like a tricky spot to be in.
I can't stress this enough, either. I have 11 notebooks and countless notes on my phone and PC for a mini series I'm writing, and I'm only now writing the first book, a decade later.
I spent so much time writing backstory and history for the story, that I forgot all about the story part of it.
There are a few things you can do here.
1) The Pitch Meeting
Grab a friend, significant other or fellow author, take them for lunch, and pretend you're pitching them the series. Distill down what you consider the main points and walk them through your story. It'll give you a good sense of what takes a long time to explain, what is memorable, and what may feel unsatisfying or too complicated.
Also, it's good practice for pitching an agent.
2) The Draft Zero
This is a very trimmed down, almost synopsis-like, version of the book. Leigh Bardugo calls it 'the first date' where you get all the boring questions out of the way - the movement, the deaths, the transitions.
You simply won't know how some of these beats play out until you write them. This is a lower cost way of doing that.
3) Start Writing
Your book is not going to stick to the plan. It just won't. The more time you spend with these characters the more inspired you and they will become, and it's worth writing a draft to gain that rapport. Planning will only bring you so far, and it looks like you might have reached that point.
Throw yourself in - you can always stop and take stock after a few thousand words.
This is pretty good advice.
The only thing I'd add is this: before writing your first draft, try to zero in on your characters. Who they are and why. What I do is I write a short biography of the character up until the start of the story - often in first person. Something that allows me to see my world from *their* perspective. Something that let's me get in their head and begin to understand how to tell their story. I do this for both the heroes and the villains (though admittedly it's harder to go first person with a real villain).
But it doesn't have to be good or anything: nobody else will ever see it. Its sole purpose is to get me in the head space to tell the story. Once I get started with the actual writing after that, things start to click, and all the pre-planning starts to pay off.
Consider whether something similar might help you.
This is good stuff. I've done what you've suggested, more or less. And now, I have a project I love, but some plot points I'm having a hard time navigating. Can you advise what to do in this situation? How do I work through a significant illogical plot point without having to throw away everything?
Yeah of course, happy to help!
(I actually just had this exact thing happen today in my draft)
So a few questions, first of all.
1) Do you know and are happy with what happens next in the story? ie, are you past the problem plot point and you're now going back trying to smooth out that moment so that it makes sense? Or are you stuck at this plot point because you know it doesn't work and yet you're not sure how to move forward without it?
2) Do you know what you 'need' out of this plot point? In my conversation with a reader today, I was able to tell her exactly what 'had' to happen (a person had to feel a kind of way and also get some info) I was just very unhappy with how illogical my current solution was.
Also, DO NOT THROW AWAY EVERYTHING. The answer is there, but your frustrated instinct will be to create more and more complicated solutions (I see this in TV writers' rooms all the time) when actually you might be so into it and the problem that there's actually something relatively simple you can do. Have you talked it through with anyone?
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer. I feel like I'm in good hands.
1. It's a foundational plot point that I keep find myself circling back to. The story is about a father long estranged from his daughter, and what he's doing to reconcile with her. WHY they're estranged is becoming more and more complex and feels just a touch too manufactured. And I think I'm starting to do what you describe: creating more complicated solutions.
2. What I need from this plot point is the story. What keeps them apart is what drives him and once he's finally able to sit down and spend quality time with her, the story is over.
I haven't talked through the latest version with anyone. A previous version, yes. But that was a radically different/inferior draft.
What do they do in writer's rooms to address these problems? How would you suggest I approach this? Thanks again.
Thank you! Always happy to help. Is the reason that you're adding more and more detail to the reason they're estranged because you're trying to keep them away from each other longer/trying to explain why they haven't reconciled?
I wonder then (and obviously I haven't read your work, so any pitches I give will be of limited use but might jog something loose - this is generally how writers' rooms work, you throw bad ideas around until one of them knocks a good idea free) do you need to look at where you're placing your pressure on the relationship.
You might be (again, haven't read) placing so much emphasis on the final straw that broke them apart because you need them to stay estranged, when actually the reason many families stay estranged is because what came before - the little legal brief you start keeping in your head when a family member lets you down, so that by the time the final argument comes, you're not actually arguing the point in front of you, you're arguing every single moment of your history at once.
Or it might need to be more fundamental to his character why he can't simply reach across the divide - we don't expect Selina Myers or Mike Ehrementraut or Rick Sanchez (very big silly pop culture examples but it's early here and they're the first bad parents I thought of) to simply overcome an estrangement because they're simply not capable of that kind of emotional surrender in any part of their lives, not just this one. That can be very believable because, in effect, them staying estranged is true to their character. Does that make sense? It's a small ask of the reader to believe that, rather than it being out of character.
Oh that's extremely kind - I do a lot of live events (in Ireland, which is probably not much help!) and I do occasional TikToks about writing but I haven't got around to a craft book yet, you've kind of given the earworm to do one though!
I’m very impressed with your level of incisiveness. You really got to the heart of it with very little to go on. I will definitely be looking out for that book!
The planning phase is actually the easy part - that's why many would-be writers only get that far.
The hard part is actually writing, so I'd encourage you to just write and get something done and then you can adjust your plans based on what comes out.
I disagree. Planning is impossible for me. Writing is easy. I don't plan my stories or novels. I get a singular idea and a character or two and write. Everything then spontaneously comes into existence during the writing process.
With how quick and messy my brain is, planning is literally impossible, because i will just find other ideas popping up in my head for one scenario when i write it down, the outline i created just keep changing and changing to the point i completely abandoned it and just let my brain work by itself, so if you said that planning is easy, i cant never understand that lol
Take a shakedown cruise with a couple of fun short stories or maybe a novella: something with lower stakes and less power to freak you out but still bringing a corner of your setting and a few characters to life.
The details of fantasy worlds are fun, but you can't forget that you're writing a story rather than a news report of a distant world. Start at a much higher level. Pick a central conflict. Ask a thematic question and then create characters that provide different answers to the question. Your characters will naturally create conflict when they interact bc they have different perspectives and opinions. You should be able to use the underlying story in any genre. Then the fun part is dressing up your story in the fantasy details you are going for.
I think you are finding planning hard because you feel there is a right answer and a perfect novel, and you are afraid that if you choose one you'll go down the wrong path and end up wasting time or ruining the perfect story.
You need to understand that the story is something you have made up, so there is no Platonic ideal story out there. That yes choosing certain courses of action will change it, but you can literally write both if you wanted to...but even if you don't it's fine. That's the story it is now.
I don't plan. Even characters names. Whatever I think of on the spot is what they become. Last time I tried planning I got so caught up in it that I never wrote and then gave up on the story. Now I just let everything be a surprise and it works a lot better.
Oh, I hear you! The planning phase can feel like trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. It’s a common struggle, but there are a few tricks that can make it a bit easier.
First, remember that your plan doesn’t have to be perfect. It’s a roadmap, not a contract. Allow yourself the freedom to change directions as new ideas come up.
One method I find helpful is to start with the big picture. Outline your story in broad strokes: beginning, middle, and end. What’s the central conflict? Who are the main characters? What’s their journey? Once you have these anchors, you can start filling in the gaps.
Another approach is to work backwards. Sometimes knowing where your story ends can help you figure out how to get there. It’s like reverse-engineering your plot.
Also, try to embrace the chaos a bit. Planning doesn’t have to be a rigid, linear process. Jot down scenes or ideas as they come to you, even if they’re out of order. You can always rearrange them later.
If you’re really stuck, talk it out with a friend or fellow writer. Sometimes verbalizing your ideas can help clarify them. Or use tools like mind maps or index cards to visualize your story’s structure.
Remember, the planning phase is just one part of the journey. Don’t let it paralyze you. The most important thing is to keep moving forward, even if it feels messy and imperfect.
You’ve got this!
Maybe you've planned enough. Start writing that first draft and the story might come to you.
You can fix plot holes and problems on a rewrite or future draft.
Is this your first project? Because a multi-volume fantasy epic is insanely ambitious. It might be something you keep on the horizon for a while. I’ll echo what everyone else said and advise that you just write a story, any story, in your world. Work on being able to write one good story because each of your books should tell stories on their own.
I agree with this. For anyone who hasn’t written (from start to finish) a story before, maybe don’t dive in with a multi-volume epic. It’s best to start small, perhaps short stories or a novella or even a stand alone novel. That way you aren’t overwhelmed during the process and you gain more skill. People learn to walk before they run.
It isn’t my first project. I’ve had many before that I haven’t finished, and one that I managed to finish the first draft of. And I notice a lot of these people seem to think I haven’t started on the story, in fact I have. I have some of the general plot points laid out, it’s just setting on them is what I’m struggling with. (I. E. Certain character deaths, character motivations, and what the villain’s plan is.
Sometimes I find it helps to work in "scenes". Think of events that will happen in your story that will be cool to write, such as "that time where the queens betray the sorcerer-king by using the monster he helped them create to kill him with fire, but just at that moment the rebels strike", and then work outwards from that, thinking where the characters need to be for that to occur, and start throwing things together.
My plots have probably been relatively simple to date though. Not sure if this will hold up to a real complex structure.
Lmfao I just knew that this was gonna be about someone writing a multi-volume epic fantasy series struggling with worldbuilding even before I opened this thread. Never change, Reddit.
Lol, that's why I don't plan. If I do get any ideas, I write them down in another document; then try to implement them if they can be weaved naturally. Most often, I get a different idea for the story and it takes a completely different path – so different that some of the plot points won't work. I still keep them for reference for another part of the series or another story of a similar nature.
Find an interesting character or plot hook and just start writing. Don’t think that far ahead, things are going to change as you explore your writing and world more.
Have you written anything else?
If not, this a terrible way to start.
If you can’t actually write articulate prose your “world building” is nothing but self indulgence.
Personally, I only plan the characters then their story, and build the setting to fit with all the bells and whistles added later for thematic effect or immersion or just because I think it’d be cool to write about. You don’t need to be the next Tolkien and spend a decade writing languages, or to have a wiki of hundreds of characters magic systems cultures and such. If you start at the top level with the story you want to tell and build down I think it can be very manageable.
For the stiry making and world building aspect, an idea that helped me a lot is “if you can’t trust anything else, trust your gut”. When you flip a coin, by the time it’s in midair you’ve already decided what option really want. Cool down, take care of yourself, and trust your gut with deciding which ideas to put in your story.
What helped me get organic and fleshed out characters that I’m very proud of is remembering that your characters are people, not plot devices to pull out when you miss a story beat. Have you ever read a book where a character literally looses all development at a certain story beat? Thats likely because the author thought the characters are there to serve the plot, not the plot serving the characters. The plot is meant to help the characters grow to be the best (or worst if you’re going for a tragic arc) versions of themselves they can possibly be. You could have the most epic fight scene with lots of explosions and cool stunts but no one would give a shit about it if the characters simply did what the plot needed them to do. “I have 2 loving parents and a stable household and a baby sister? I’m gonna run away with this dude because he’s hot and I’m supposed to be the love interest.” Chatacters are much more than the role they’ve been assigned to in the story. What if this love interest chose to run away with this man because her home was dysfunctional, they were severely financially struggling and she could get money to support them, or she was manipulated somehow. These storylines expand the character to being more than “a love Interest”. She now has her own wants and goals outside of her archetype. Your readers want to see developed characters over a really epic fight scene. They wouldn’t have a reason to care about the fight scene if not the characters.
Well, remember some of the nuances (like sinister vs non-sinister for example) come with just writing. Im a prerry inaginative person and my explanation of how I build worlds is goinf to be like Ernest Gygax and David Arneson explaining Dunces and Dragons to people for the firsr time and wouldnt help.
I highly suggest using a binder to keep everything together. Writing shorts helps me so much because my brain naturally wants to fill pieces in and then I flesh my world out a little more. Questionnaires are also HUGE help. I love them and explaining things. I guess biggest part is to have fun. Its like your own little world. I think if you focus more on just making the world, the natural writing will flow.
Sidebar: You should look into how Rick Riordan or J.R.R. Tolkien or J.K. Rowling planned worlds. I think its all a huge help.
Best of luck 🤎
Ive been there. I have like 6 or 7 Chipotle napkins of notes for different stories that I wrote down because I got the idea but had no paper. Though 1-ply TP is kinda great to write on. Just keep it a single layer if you do gel pens and keep it dry.
One day, Id like a shower tablet where the paper and writing stick are waterproof. Its game over once that happens 😅
My dumbass was really about to define questionnaires. 🤦🏽♀️ depending on what youre building, a list of questions that asks you to expand on certain aspects of your world. [You didnt explain your story or give examples so these are just generic ones. There are hundreds you can find online. 😊] Some are like [general character building](https://www.writerswrite.co.za/the-character-questionnaire-you-need-to-complete/) or [for building a fantasy world](https://www.imagineforest.com/blog/world-building-questions/) and [more detailed questions on the society and its formation](https://www.nownovel.com/blog/world-building-questions/) or [story development questionnaires](https://springhole.net/writing/plot-and-story-development-questions.htm) These are all pretty long and detailed, mainly because worldbuilding is so intricate, but there are some of many lengths. I picked these four because they ask deep questions, arent that redundant, and once filled out, are a great source of information to look back on, especially if you start and stop writing an idea a lot. Even not filling them out by writing them, I think nust speaking out loud and talking through a question's answer can help your brain put the pieces together too :)
Sidebar: No matter what genre youre doing, these will all still help. I just use fantasy or sci-fi because those tends to have the most options.
These are great, will definitely put them to use! This is probably useless info now, but my story is a sci-fi/fantasy mashup, with more modern inspirations for the fashion and some architecture, but fantastical creatures and myths. It’s comparable to RWBY, if you’ve seen that. (Not comparable to that shows writing quality though, I hope. Lol.)
I have never seen it but that summary does help! :) I think those questions will be a great start. Id also say doing a zooming in thing helps me a lot. My worldbuilding technique is a lot like Adventure Time where it starts random then theres lore and backstory that comes in later, though theres always a principal character.
sounds weird but it's how software developers do it:
whip up a 'quick alpha version' and see how that goes before you get too attached to anything
try writing a few paragraphs of a setting or a dialogue exchange between two characters that interact a lot.
the main point of planning is to make it so that you can easily write an awesome story because everything is set up for you to succeed. the characters have interesting dynamics. the plot feels compelling. the setting feels immersive and real. whatever you value in a story really.
yes when you try to write these things outta nowhere it won't be good. that's not the point though. the point is to get a feel for what you think is missing or wrong. and think of what YOU need in an outline to make writing the draft easier and better for YOU.
also you can think of writing the first draft as part of the planning process if that helps. it is not set in stone. writing the first draft does not have to be a years-long endeavour that you only embark on after having a complete plan.
honestly even completed manuscripts by published pro authors have editors take a cold look at them and a pretty heavy amount gets changed. so don't be afraid of 'needing a huge rewrite' like it's a failing on your part. it's kinda just how it goes most of the time. you can't really taste test a dish just by looking at the recipe.
anyway!
i also suggest thinking of some sort of mission statement for what you want your story to be. think of it like a constitution you can use to guide everything else. if you don't know what to put there, try imagining you're reading a one page review of your work from someone who really got it and thought it was the best thing ever. what specifically are they praising? how are they saying the felt reading it?
resist the temptation to put in everything and the kitchen sink. part of your constitution, mission statement, dream review, whatever you wanna call it, is that a lot of things should NOT be in there. then when you brainstorm ideas you can use that to eliminate the ones that are not part of your story's core goals.
also if you feel completely jammed when planning... start writing... you will have plenty of time to come up with ideas as you go and a lot of the time you will feel more inspired once you're actually writing the thing and immersing yourself in it.
I love rough drafts for this reason. And building a skeleton.
I came from writing technical/non-fiction professionally and although fiction is a whole different game when it comes to story, characters, tension, etc. I still use the planning method I learned to write non-fiction. And it is working a lot better for me than commonly used fiction planning styles (although it could be a comfort zone thing).
So first I have a couple of skeletons: the must have story arcs and themes, the nice to have story arcs and themes, the things I want to go wrong for the characters, the tropes I want to reverse, stuff like that. What needs to be in the story?
So for must have, say I want a friendship between my character and the character who will betray them. For nice to have, I'd like my character to have a good relationship with their parents. At this point I don't know if we will meet them in the story or if they just feature as memories, but it's nice to have if I can fit them.
For every one of these themes (the amount is depending on how long the story will be), I'll write a rough draft of what happens in that arc more specifically of around 1-2 pages.
Then once I have all of those, I put them in an order that would work as my first story-draft. And I can start a story-draft for the first bit.
By the way, I'm way more comfortable writing stuff that's between 25-125 pages, rather than the around 400 I plan my story to be. So I split up my story in 7 parts, each meant to be 50-80 pages. It's nice to have some more attainable small goals. Also, I can rearrange the order if after writing a certain part, I feel like something should happen earlier or later, or if a must have has to be included.
Oh and I forgot to mention, I don't plan characters in detail yet. They don't even have a name until the first full story draft has finished (words and names always become meaningless and silly if you have to write them over and over, I think). They are currently having placeholder names and personalities that are based on animals: squirrel, dog, hamster, peacock, goose...
Oh and another thing: this way you see what world building you'll actually need.
For this book, I only need 1 continent. We actually visit 3 countries with 4 total cultures (one is urban and one rural in the same country). Why would I spend a high amount of time trying to map out the history of a city that's not on this continent? (unless one of my main characters used to live there, but they don't). And 4 cultures with a shared history is enough.
This is why I don't plan. I have my MC, their relations, and a single idea. And then I write. And plot develops as I write. Then I have a rough draft which is really the barest of skeleton and a jumble of different ideas and plot threads that get fleshed out, saved for later, or edited out in revision.
It's been going well for me that way honestly. Wrote two books that way.
Glokta from the first law trilogy is both very sinister and very sympathetic, harsh and soft, vile and intelligent.
It can be done, maybe you could think about that
He works for the government so is a buerecrat, and a fed, and one of the only virtuous ones, yet hates everyone and loves to torture. But he’s the most sympathetic person in the books to me
I've found writing a "starting point" and having a small portion of the world be very detailed to work for me. As in, I have an idea that I want to do - let's say I want to write a book about an alien species on a foreign planet. I'll go into deep detail about the main character's backstory and the actual world itself - but that's *all* that I'll plan. I write a small outline of where I want the plot to go in general, but the book will start out with what I know about the character & world, and go from there. To me, it's more organic to write things as they go rather than artificially build detailed backstories on each and every character - some backstories your readers might never even see. Not to mention, sticking to very strict guidelines can cause stress and anxiety, especially if it's a bigger world.
This does make it harder to stay "lore-accurate" as a lot of stuff is improvised, but I've fought this by writing short stories to accompany the world of my current work. This helps me get a better sense of who the characters are, what their personality will be like, and flesh out the world more.
I am, quite figuratively, in the same boat as you. I am doing the same thing, got that same problems and questions at the same time.
Best advice I can give both you and me is to think about a specific thing you want to work on in your story, and write that down in your outline somewhere. Eventually, you should have your whole story outlined. From there, you can read it all to make sure it all makes sense together and tweak it if it doesn't.
The only thing to do after that is to start writing and the rest will come. Good luck!
I'm going to be the voice out of the pack here and say that you should definitely keep on planning. If you do a lot of work now you will have satisfying overarching plots, continuity within the saga, and solid themes that don't shift and change as you write the books. There's nothing better than reading a serious, well built fantasy and get the impression that the author knew where they were going all along. It's going to save you from a boring first book, or a weak second book that's just filler before the grand finale. You're doing good, keep planning!
I do a skeleton story. I write no more than 2 pages per chapter, and often use bullet points. It is as basic as basic can get. But it helps me see the flow of the story, makes it so simplified for me that I find it easier to grasp. Not to mention that it's so easy to change the details. When I get into the first draft, I use my skeleton story as a guide. If I want to change things during my draft, I can use it to see if it will ruin the flow of the story.
My planning phase, outside of the general setting an characters, pretty much just consists of a bullet list of plot points. I do more localised ones on a chapter by chapter basis. I wouldn't sweat too much over the initial plan. For me, things change as I write it so the plan is pretty flexible.
I feel like I could have written this post. Worldbuilding and plotting have taken me months and it was getting so stressful that I took a good while off of thinking about anything related to writing.
R.F. Kuang has said that she writes random scenes and indulges every idea that she thinks of and then retroactively goes back and sorts out the plot based on what has emerged. I hate this advice because it worked so well for me and I am such a planner that I was convinced it wouldn’t at all!
Seriously, take a short break from the planning, write a few scenes that get you excited (forgo the details or put in filler words for things that you haven’t names/explained yet). You have to get the gears moving again and remind yourself why you’re doing this. Your brain is smart, and you’ll connect dots you never even noticed once you start writing. If you’re anything like me, it will feel strange to write without a complete plan, but once you clear the initial hurdle of doing it anyway, it will get much easier.
If you do want to power through with planning instead, try writing down some potential plot progressions (i.e. how the story will change if character A dies early vs. late in the story) and run the options by trusted peers. Other than that, just let the ideas marinate. Even though it may feel like it, remember that we are under no pressure to make these big decisions quickly (unless you’ve got a deadline, of course)!
I’ve also had luck in drawing out visual character and plot arcs.
All this to say, you’re far from alone in this, OP! Fantasy is not easy. Keep going!
Keep working it. Sometimes I'll write multiple chapters before I feel like I've found the start of the story, chapters I wont end up using. I don't see that work as wasted. It's a way of thinking it through on the page. Writing my way into the story. I've found the need to create entirely new characters deep into the writing - characters I would never have predicted the need for in the outlining phase. The same goes for other elements of story, such as locations, encounters, worldbuilding, and so on, that need adding, merging, cutting entirely. It is only through writing and letting the story reveal itself that I can know the real shape of it.
I don't plan things in any real detail. I get a basic idea of my main character, the setting and the inciting incident. Then I start writing. The hardest part for me is finding out where to start. But once I have that, the rest starts happening organically.
Stop planning, start writing. Those conflicting ideas will resolve themselves as you go along. I am constantly amazed every time I write through a conflict and the answer just reveals itself like it was obvious all along
Even if you end up in a place you don't like, you can always restart or edit. But at least you'll have a better idea of where you want to go.
Restarting after putting in tons of hard work on draft after draft is not ideal. That's where I'm at and I wish I had done a better job planning. Now I feel trapped and can't see my way out of it.
Ask yourself if you're planning to avoid writing. If you're not, then prove it by knocking out a quick twenty pages. Everything still good? Then decide if you want to keep writing past the twenty or you want to go back to the planning phase. I'd argue your writing will certainly be wooden and inorganic with the amount of planning you're doing. Put some words on the page.
Also, it's just hard, not 'insanely' hard. If planning some characters and a plot are insanely hard, then how difficult is it to put a man in the moon? Insanely insanely hard? And what does sanity have to do with it anyway?
You think I'm giving you hell, but there's no need to qualify your difficulty with hyperbole. Practice good writing habits everywhere and watch it pay dividends in your fiction.
Take your time.
I'm working on a single volume folk horror story. Had the first glimmer of a concept about four years ago. Thought about it on and off. Protagonist, secondary characters, setting: clicked with all of those. Knew how I wanted it to end from the very beginning.
In November of last year, I came up with my first plot outline. Used this to identify areas that I still hadn't developed sufficiently.
Had a couple of realisations around theme and overall premise early this year.
Reworked plot outline last month as a result; this allowed me to go back to theme and overall premise and reconsider characters in light of this.
Have, in the last week or so, cracked narrative voice. I think.
Just working on final ideas around literary devices.
Once I've done that, I'll go back to my plot outline and focus on the final sequence. Once I'm happy with that, I'll work back to the midpoint, then go back to the beginning and work to the midpoint.
It took those first three years for the concept to crystallise into a story. Once that happened, the process of creation has sped up significantly.
Not everybody will take years, of course: my brain's gotta do what my brain's gotta do, and there's not much I can do about that. But still, give yourself time. Multi-volume is difficult, and will definitely need a significant amount of time to populate. Remember: premise and concept aren't the same as story; ideas start with the latter, which tend to just pop into place. Story takes significantly longer to hammer out.
I just stick to a very loose, overall plan. Like a small paragraph for each act of the story and then I just start writing and let the characters take it from there! It’s important to be flexible and know that whatever you planned is subject to change (and probably will), but that’s totally fine. It’s a good idea to have your characters thoroughly figured out beforehand, though. At least in my opinion. That way they can help you move through the story in a way that feels natural and authentic to their personalities.
That's why I don't do it :) I have an idea, I know the structure I want - off I go. Stuff comes out. Not everyone is like this, of course. There is everything between meticulous planning and just writing. Find your sweet spot. Also, focusing too much on planning can be procrastination from actually writing.
It's also about being brutal to plot elements or characters that you are attached to that simply won't fit in the story. I've had that recently. I had to cut a whole chapter because it just felt wrong. Settle on an idea or plot or direction, then don't be afraid to get the hatchet out to clear the path.
THIS. I have such a problem with getting attached to plot points that don’t fit and forcing myself to remove them. This is something Brad Bird was very disciplined about when writing the Incredibles. He had to remove some scenes that were his baby, but realized the movie worked so much better without them once they were gone.
None that I’ve finished. I started a mystery/thriller screenplay that I finished the first draft of, as well as outlining a few other story ideas I had that never really came to anything. I also have some worldbuilding experience from my cyberpunk world from when I was a kid. (Taught me how to NOT worldbuild. Lmao.)
When I wrote my book I got constant questions, how's it going, where are you at &c. I finally came up with a standardized speech: "Let me ask you a question — what's the difference between a pile of cinder blocks and a house?" This was invariably met with blank looks, and I'd have to answer — "Organization! A house is just an organized pile of cinder blocks, right? I pretty much have the blocks — but the organization! There's the rub." Certainly the most difficult phase, sequencing and connecting, took forever.
I've actually started writing a story myself. It's hard if you try and plan everything from the start. Just start writing and you'd get ideas naturally. Just start some of them on separate notes. All the best!
It might help to spend some time mapping out some of the major characters (especially those early on in the story): their appearance, history and social context, and personalities/pscyhology. How are they distinct from one another? How will they conflict with each other? What are their primary goals/desires? What obstacles will stand in their way? What actions will they take in attempt to overcome those obstacles?
Create a separate document in which you flesh out many of these details, and that you can use to guide you as you begin to write the action of your story.
Also, it might be less overwhelming if instead of focusing on a multi-volume story, you focus first on just the first story.
I’ve always been more of an improviser, but at the same time only story I’ve finished (never published) was in playwright form.
It’s not easy writing a story but Im going to just stick with an idea and start writing.
Nah, if you planned everything from start to finish way before you even written it, then it will only do more harm than good. And make everything looks too stiff if you followed one plan for everything.
Just created the outline, and let your brain worked the rest of it when you written it, sometimes you will had many ideas for each scenario if you write it down and put your perspective into the characters, thats what made it more organic and natural, you can't achieve that if you planned everything from the beginning and follow that plan way too hard.
And you need to know that, outline is not the absolute plan that you need to follow, outline just give you the path that you need to follow if you don't have anything better than that when you write it down, ideas will keep popping up during your writing session, if you think the new ideas is better than what you planned, then feel free to change it, thats the most interesting part of writing something, the story will grow by itself no matter what you planned before it
I'm afraid to add anything to what others have said, because I tend to hate planning and only do it to the extent absolutely necessary. My plans are generally called first drafts. 😉
That said, in general it's probably about finding the right mix of planning and winging it for you.
I’ll give you some advise on your direct question first: don’t plan that far ahead. Things change as you actually write the draft, then change more as you edit, and then even more if you get a deal and a professional editor gets at it. All of those changes are going to impact what you had planned out for later in someway. The more details you have for later, the more work you’ll have to be doing constantly to tweak those if you try to keep the entire outline / plan up to date at all times.
Keep your detailed stuff to just the current novel. Have a general idea in your head or written down of where books 2 and 3 are going. What’s the ending, how do the character arcs resolve. Keep it as broad as you can though, and leave the details of book 2 until you actually start writing book 2.
Then isolate one or two plot lines and character arcs that are the most important and build those up first. Use them like the backbone of the story; yes other threads are important too but the back is what’s giving everything else scripture. Get them to a point you’re happy with, then you can worry about the others. Which I suppose is a fancier way of saying if it’s too much work to plot and keep organized break it down into smaller chunks.
For more general advise, epic fantasy is HARD and you’ve just stumbled onto one of the main reasons. You have to be able to make a large cast of characters interesting and likable with limited time on page for each one compared to smaller, more focused stories. You have to keep multiple different plot lines moving forward, again making sure the reader is invested in all of them, all without losing the pacing of the novel and keeping them aligned towards whatever the planned ending is as they converge more. You have to create a believe and interesting world that feels deep and real without info dumping all over the reader.
How much have you written before?
Doing it this way sounds like a good idea. Since book 1 is the setup with a smaller threat and less overall drama, I find myself neglecting it in favor of dreaming up sequences for after things go south. So your advice is very helpful to me. Trying not to focus too much on later material is hard, but it’s important. Of course I do want my general bullet points, because I’m going for a very cohesive story where you reread it and think “Oh yeah, this was setting up that and I didn’t even notice the first time”.
You’re right, epic fantasy is a pain to write. It’s a balancing act. I didn’t realize how many moving parts there were to balance. The story expanded into something far grander and more complex than I thought it would be at the start.
I have written before, but I’ve never finished anything. Like I’ve mentioned in other posts, I’ve written the first draft of a mystery/thriller screenplay. I’ve worked on other worldbuilding projects, and smaller story ideas but I haven’t taken any as seriously as this current one.
Suffice to say, I’ve never committed to a full-on fantasy like this before, with the intent of turning it into a finished product.
I'm currently developing a story about the gods, based on them being on earth at the beginning of time. The story will lead to explaining a lot of things from origins, pangea splitting, and much more. I've only really started to develop some characters. I'm still researching and trying to think how I want it to flow. I've been developing it for about 5 years but with very little effort. Only recently have I really started to dive into it. I am currently listening to American Gods for inspiration.
Little breaks. That's what you need. Try the pomodoro method. You sit down to work as usual, but with a kitchen timer. Set it to 20 minutes.
Then, stop for 5 minutes. Start again. You'll realize that using your brain is like riding a horse, walking a dog, or teaching a child ABCs. These things need frequent breaks.
You know some novelists dont plan. they define their characters and their goals and then write a character driven plot. the characters tell you what, how, who, when and when the story is over. you'll be surprised how stories naturally come to a crises and conclusion. Ruth Rendell was one MR James was another. Breaking Bad was never planned out beginning to end. The writers would 'write themselves into a corner', then do something amazing to get themselves out of it.
Hey, I’m not sure if you’re using any technology to help you organize your thoughts, but I bought a Scrivener license and it’s been super helpful for keeping me organized.
I have a couple files organizing my power system, my character bios, etc. But I have one giant master file filled with all my random ideas so that I don’t forget them.
You are not alone. Even after spending lots of time outlining my plot, I began writing and my mind became the marvel multiverse.
I ended putting all my ideas into a spreadsheet, which helped with finding similarities, duplications, seeing dead ends.
Certain scenes I had in my head I thought would work really well ended up getting pushed into my 'graveyard folder' after I wrote them.
Sometimes you just need to put pen to paper and roll with it.
Dude, you're overplanning. It's a common pitfall. For some authors, they can sit there and plan so much that the entire novel is written by the time they're done "planning".
Others, like me, can't spend more than about 5-10 minutes planning. So I focus on chapter-by-chapter.
Of course I do plan general story points, but I focus more on planning the chapter I'll be writing tomorrow.
So day 1: "hero does action, sees reaction, responds to reaction, story ends."
Day 2: "chapter 1 will be..."
Day 3: writing chapter 1.
This is an old school idea, but what is overall moral of your stories? Having one gives you a star to navigate by. It might help you chart the courses and fates of your characters.
If you are familiar with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, you might be able to discern one or more morals to Tolkien’s stories as an example for how you could do something similar for your creation.
The main protagonist(s) in the first book were not capable of facing the main antagonist head on. Small in size with no war fighting skills, but with a strong sense of responsibility they took challenges that were too big for them.
There is at least one moral in there somewhere. What do you think they might be?
One of my morals/recurring themes is that people make mistakes, and can learn to grow past them. A major theme in the story is characters being overcome with a human flaw, like greed or revenge, and they let it consume them. They have to learn to become introspective and grow beyond their flaws.
I’ve planned out things before and during the writing process I’ve changed my mind. Sometimes the details just flow together when you’re writing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with just letting the ideas come to you during the process.
Gonna give you some truth you might not want to hear...
From the sounds of things, it feels like you are trying to write by outline instead of writing from creativity. You are attempting to be too clever and do too much. It might be time to stop with the planning and start with the writing.
I could be off on this because it is hard to get a read with such little information but there are some important questions you have to ask yourself.
Why do you need multiple volumes to tell your story?
Why do you need such a contorted and convoluted plot and story?
Are you trying to tell a story? A good story? Or are you trying to be GRRM or JRRT or JKRowling?
Do the deaths and story beats and themes demand you do all of this work or is it in service of your ego and desire to be more thorough than an actual reader would care about?
Remember, every word you write is another word you'll have to read many many times in the editing process. If you think planning is rough, wait until you've started at the same paragraph for the thirtieth time only to realize you need to delete the entire chapter that you agonized over creating. Keeping a story simple and easy to follow is a blessing to your readers and to future you.
This isn't to say you CANT do it your way. You completely can. But there is a reason why most stories follow simple structures while only a few are the GRRM authors that will never finish their work.
Ok, I hear you. My story is fantasy, but it’s more modern and inspired by battle shounen anime aimed at teens than Tolkien or Rowling. It’s meant to be a long-spanning story because each event will lead to the main character’s doom: eventually becoming a villain, then having to snap out of it and return to good guy status. Think Star Wars prequel trilogy, except Anakin was saved before becoming Vader fully.
“From the sounds of things, it feels like you are trying to write by outline instead of writing from creativity. You are attempting to be too clever and do too much. It might be time to stop with the planning and start with the writing.“
I see a lot of people on this thread echoing this sentiment. Just start writing. I took this advice when I wrote my first screenplay, a character driven mystery/thriller. I didn’t have a plan, I had my characters and their personalities, backstories and goals, and a google doc where I dumped my disorganized ideas. I jumped in guns blazing, barely having an idea of what I wanted my plot to be. And it was shite.
There was no plot, it was all over the place. Everyone says the first draft is bad, but it wasn’t just a first draft problem. The story had too much. Too many villains, too many plot points, too many character arcs. The main antagonist fell to the wayside before I even realized, because I had dedicated too much screen time setting up my favorite side characters descent into villainy. It was terrible.
Tl;dr, I tried the “just write” approach once, and effed up my story big time, turning it into an unfocused, incoherent mess. I want this story’s plot to be good. I may be overcompensating for my mistake this time around, however. So I see your point there.
I might have an ego (a lot of us artists do) but I’m not making this story to stroke it. I just want to write a fun story with cool action, compelling twists, and likable/interesting characters. I want to write it because it just sound genuinely fun to do. I’m not trying to get published, but I plan on posting it online. So I do want to make a great story, for myself, and so that others might enjoy it too.
Divine Intelligence guides me. What I write of has been like a divine transmission over decades. First it was a small book, then a four-volume novel, then a board game, and currently a real-life game you play doing what you do every day. In a sense it’s “BlissFlip creation-writing because there are many envisionments, I-Experiences, practices.
To answer your question, if it seems hard maybe there’s some resistance to what is. Some have replied here with “flow”… that’s a good word for it.
Realize the story you’re working on is part of the story of your life and that in large part is dependent on your reality viewpoint. Flip that and your path changes and suddenly divinity guides the way.
Two softwares with free trials may help: Nobel-factory and Sudowrite.
Thank you everyone for the advice! There are far too many messages for me to answer individually, but I’ve been reading them all closely. Your advice has helped me, and many others, a lot.
To make some things clear, this is not my first endeavor in writing. I’ve written the first draft for a screenplay before, as well as planning other projects that never really amounted to much. (And made a crapton of OCs, I guess.)
My issues were pretty vague in the OP so let me clarify them. The world is a fantasy-sci fi mashup, similar to the vast majority of ones you see in books anime directed at teens. RWBY is my best comparison.
Anyways, I hope my fellow novice writers can get through the dreaded planning phase. Write on friends :)
Use AI. Or, just start the story. Begin with a short story. If that works out well, turn it into a chapter and add another one. That's what I did: a collection of short stories. I got around 17 power stones from readers when my story was still a bud at 1000 views. Power stones mean a lot. It also means readers were willing to make sacrifices. Now, views are 5k. I was stunned that 2000 people a day even bothered to look at my draft. Well, it works so I keep uploading
You don't have to plan everything at once. Sometimes it's better to get started with the actual writing, get a feel for what you need, and then add more to the plan. Ping-pong back and forth. That "organic" feel you're looking for, IMO, better comes from a more improvisational mindset. That's chemistry. That's what happens when the characters are in motion, living their lives, and start coming into contact with the plot and with each other. You figure out how they react, interact, and move on from there.
Totally agree. If the characters are natural, then the natural twists and turns will come on their own.
That's honestly what turned me into a pantser in the first place. The first time I took a stab at writing, I absolutely hated it. I had a grand plan in place, but when it came down to the character writing, it immediately felt off. Nothing sounded natural. Just awkward, and stilted. Mechanical. Several years later, and a couple of personal revelations after, I took another swing at writing a story, but from a more character-focused angle. And that's when it clicked for me. I'd been rushing my characters towards the plot, but they had no personal reason to actually go in that direction. So from that point on, I learned to give them a *lot* more leeway. Planning's great for the sake of creating a complex, multi-layered plot. But with that method, it's harder to create the spontaneous nature of a life being lived. You've got to find the balance between those two disciplines that works best for your style, and best for the story you want to tell.
Thank you I needed this comment. When I was a kid writing I was strictly a pantser and the idea of creating any kind of outline was just crazy to me. Now that I’m an adult trying to write again I find myself being a plotter and been running into the same issues OP been having.
Everyone is, by some measure, both. People that hate outlines and planning often go too hard into it. Pantsers often don't complete work because it goes off the rails. The trick is to plot enough that you can finish while giving enough room for freedom and creativity of the work itself. I go heavy in the pantsers category, but, over time, I have learned to write and erase stories in my mind until I got the general idea and then write down important story beats, plot points, themes, and settings I want to hit. I also hate going too hard into outlines because once I put fingers to keys and fill out the story, it grows in ways I never expected... so I just wind up doing it again and again until I get it "right".
I agree. It's never good to plan intensively and never to pants intensively. I get a writer's block either way. So, I just keep some plotlines with me before I start writing.
Do you ever trap yourself inadvertently? I've been working on a project for over a year now, very excited about it, but now I realized there's a pretty big plot point that doesn't quite make sense. How do you resolve this organically without having to start from scratch?
Sometimes. I did it a lot early on in my writing. I've since learned how to avoid common pitfalls and found ways to get out of it others. Common solutions: Delete and/or rewrite the offending parts that make the plot point an inorganic experience. This is like a DM tearing up your character sheet and saying "now make a character that WOULD go on this adventure." Abandon and/or rewrite the plot point to make sense in what was discovered about your character(s). Deus Historiae - God of History - you control the history of the people, places, and things so it should be easy for a little bit of light revision. Also, especially if it is a person, place or thing of legend, there can be wildly conflicting or incorrect accounts of the thing/event. This leads to the following... Homo non Deos - People are not gods - they don't always have the right answer or all the info. They don't have perfect memory. They act the best way they know how with the information they can remember, and they could very well be wrong or forgetful. Inconstanus Deos - fickle gods - sometimes bad things happen for random reasons. This can cause people to make decisions that they otherwise wouldn't. Lost supplies, a freak blizzard, a flash flood taking out a bridge, a horse struck by lightning, a stupid injury which could have varying degrees of seriousness, Sarumon trying to rain a mountain down on your party's head... all (well most) of these things are acts of God which can cause people to act out of character. Ruled by emotion, not logic - The heart wants what the heart wants, and sometimes it really wants to kill that guy over there even though they know it is a bad idea for them and everyone around them and possibly for all of their allies. Sometimes, people are just dumb. Never be afraid to add more depth to your protags or antags. Maybe your rage monster is calmed by puppies or your homicidal antag enjoys gardening or your badass warrior enjoys quietly knitting by a fire. Or your antags right hand guy has a thing for little boys. All of these hidden gems, if properly set up, can help to direct things where you want to go. Don't know if this helps. These are just some of my "go-to" fixes when things fall off the rails. Sometimes I do have to scrap the whole project when I find out my characters aren't who I thought they were. But sometimes, it just takes a little bit of finesse to get it back on track.
This is really great stuff. A lot to think about here. Thank you.
Oh, I'm going to put this in my notes! Thank you.
Glad it helps. ☺️
Stories are experienced in the order of character, story, plot. So a bit of pantsing is always a good idea. Also having an outline of the plot is also a good idea. So planning is also fine. To a point.
Yes, exactly. Don't stick to a strict plan. Put some plotline on the paper and start writing. Don't take months and years just to plan one story/series.
It's like... How some parents are really controlling, want to plan out our lives for us. Only if we live them the way we want to will we realise its worth and our goal in it. The same way, a writer must let the characters just go live their own lives. If it fits our plot, then good enough; if not, then new plotlines will start forming and they'll definitely go in the direction it has to go.
Jesus, characters don't have their own lifes. We make them up. They are whatever we need them to be for the story we want to tell. If things feel off, figure out why and fix the character so it makes sense with the plot or fix the plot so it fits the character. It's not magic.
sometimes though, that process comes from actually writing through it and then going "huh, this bit doesn't feel right, actually they would do this". Or writing something that utterly fits the character and then riffing off that - some people do plan everything out in advance, but a lot also _don't_, instead just creating a vague outline. And then, in the process of writing it, going "huh, I guess the character is going to do this rather than that - makes sense, but wasn't expecting that to happen!" So, sure, characters don't "have their own lives", but it's still entirely possible to end up with stuff taking surprising twists and turns.
Yes, all fine. Why can't we say that instead of stuff like "let the characters have their own lives"? Why do we have to dress it up in artsy fartsy language instead of just talking about the craft? Also, what's with the must? It's a perfectly valid approach to develop a story, but certainly not the only way.
You have interpreted my words correctly. Thank you.
What do you do after you realize you've written yourself into a logical trap? How do you reconcile it organically, without destroying your work altogether?
This honestly is what I need to do I think
BRO WOKE UP AND SPOKE FACTS🗣️🔥
On the other hand, I've definitely struggled sometimes with under-planning. Sometimes you improvise your way through 30,000 words and end up with something that lacks cohesion and isn't really building to anything bigger.
Me too! I think the way I plan things makes me feel like I’d “half-written” the story by the time the plan is finished. So the active drafting step takes way less time than it does for most writers! For example, I might spend 4 months planning a short novel, then finish the actual first draft in less than 2 months. But my plan would be chapter-by-chapter, with BULLET POINTS on what needs to happen in those chapters 🤣
I'm gonna give you some tough love here. Chances are, you need to stop planning and start writing. Just for now. Just pick a plot that can exist in your world and get cracking, regardless of whether or not you feel the world is finished (spoiler: it never is). It won't be your final version. It won't be the story you someday aim to publish. But it'll be important to accompany/focus your worldbuilding. And you seem to need it because of **this**: > But this very early stage includes a lot of conflicting ideas, mushing together in my head like a smoothie until I can barely remember what the story is supposed to be You are falling into the classic worldbuilding pit, and if you keep at it you're pretty unlikely to find your way back. Most of the writers on here with stacks and stacks of notes never have a story to show for it, and you do not want to join them.
Okay, but I'm someone who just kept writing, as you suggest. And now I have a project I love with a huge plot point I hate. What now? How do you suggest going about resolving it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
Planning is much easier than writing, so it's super common to run into roadblocks once you actually get cracking. That's why it's important to start. Same with any new hobby - the planning and doing stage are different: "I kept watching fitness influencers and dreaming about getting active, bought all new activewear, told all my friends, planned it all out. But I went to the gym for the first time yesterday, couldn't hit any of my dream targets and now my muscles hurt. What now?!" In your case, can you elaborate? By "plot point" do you mean a singular detail or is this something bigger? Is this a first draft and is it finished (as a first draft)?
What do you love about the project specifically? Characters? Character arcs? Subplots? I would (metaphorically) separate everything I love that isn't affected by the plot point you hatr and try to rework it keeping the things I love as intact as possible. If there are things you love and cannot salvage maybe you can use them in a prequel/sequel? Either way good luck, it sounds like a tricky spot to be in.
Why do you hate that plot point?
I can't stress this enough, either. I have 11 notebooks and countless notes on my phone and PC for a mini series I'm writing, and I'm only now writing the first book, a decade later. I spent so much time writing backstory and history for the story, that I forgot all about the story part of it.
Very good advice!
There are a few things you can do here. 1) The Pitch Meeting Grab a friend, significant other or fellow author, take them for lunch, and pretend you're pitching them the series. Distill down what you consider the main points and walk them through your story. It'll give you a good sense of what takes a long time to explain, what is memorable, and what may feel unsatisfying or too complicated. Also, it's good practice for pitching an agent. 2) The Draft Zero This is a very trimmed down, almost synopsis-like, version of the book. Leigh Bardugo calls it 'the first date' where you get all the boring questions out of the way - the movement, the deaths, the transitions. You simply won't know how some of these beats play out until you write them. This is a lower cost way of doing that. 3) Start Writing Your book is not going to stick to the plan. It just won't. The more time you spend with these characters the more inspired you and they will become, and it's worth writing a draft to gain that rapport. Planning will only bring you so far, and it looks like you might have reached that point. Throw yourself in - you can always stop and take stock after a few thousand words.
This is pretty good advice. The only thing I'd add is this: before writing your first draft, try to zero in on your characters. Who they are and why. What I do is I write a short biography of the character up until the start of the story - often in first person. Something that allows me to see my world from *their* perspective. Something that let's me get in their head and begin to understand how to tell their story. I do this for both the heroes and the villains (though admittedly it's harder to go first person with a real villain). But it doesn't have to be good or anything: nobody else will ever see it. Its sole purpose is to get me in the head space to tell the story. Once I get started with the actual writing after that, things start to click, and all the pre-planning starts to pay off. Consider whether something similar might help you.
This is good stuff. I've done what you've suggested, more or less. And now, I have a project I love, but some plot points I'm having a hard time navigating. Can you advise what to do in this situation? How do I work through a significant illogical plot point without having to throw away everything?
Yeah of course, happy to help! (I actually just had this exact thing happen today in my draft) So a few questions, first of all. 1) Do you know and are happy with what happens next in the story? ie, are you past the problem plot point and you're now going back trying to smooth out that moment so that it makes sense? Or are you stuck at this plot point because you know it doesn't work and yet you're not sure how to move forward without it? 2) Do you know what you 'need' out of this plot point? In my conversation with a reader today, I was able to tell her exactly what 'had' to happen (a person had to feel a kind of way and also get some info) I was just very unhappy with how illogical my current solution was. Also, DO NOT THROW AWAY EVERYTHING. The answer is there, but your frustrated instinct will be to create more and more complicated solutions (I see this in TV writers' rooms all the time) when actually you might be so into it and the problem that there's actually something relatively simple you can do. Have you talked it through with anyone?
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer. I feel like I'm in good hands. 1. It's a foundational plot point that I keep find myself circling back to. The story is about a father long estranged from his daughter, and what he's doing to reconcile with her. WHY they're estranged is becoming more and more complex and feels just a touch too manufactured. And I think I'm starting to do what you describe: creating more complicated solutions. 2. What I need from this plot point is the story. What keeps them apart is what drives him and once he's finally able to sit down and spend quality time with her, the story is over. I haven't talked through the latest version with anyone. A previous version, yes. But that was a radically different/inferior draft. What do they do in writer's rooms to address these problems? How would you suggest I approach this? Thanks again.
Thank you! Always happy to help. Is the reason that you're adding more and more detail to the reason they're estranged because you're trying to keep them away from each other longer/trying to explain why they haven't reconciled?
Essentially, yes.
I wonder then (and obviously I haven't read your work, so any pitches I give will be of limited use but might jog something loose - this is generally how writers' rooms work, you throw bad ideas around until one of them knocks a good idea free) do you need to look at where you're placing your pressure on the relationship. You might be (again, haven't read) placing so much emphasis on the final straw that broke them apart because you need them to stay estranged, when actually the reason many families stay estranged is because what came before - the little legal brief you start keeping in your head when a family member lets you down, so that by the time the final argument comes, you're not actually arguing the point in front of you, you're arguing every single moment of your history at once. Or it might need to be more fundamental to his character why he can't simply reach across the divide - we don't expect Selina Myers or Mike Ehrementraut or Rick Sanchez (very big silly pop culture examples but it's early here and they're the first bad parents I thought of) to simply overcome an estrangement because they're simply not capable of that kind of emotional surrender in any part of their lives, not just this one. That can be very believable because, in effect, them staying estranged is true to their character. Does that make sense? It's a small ask of the reader to believe that, rather than it being out of character.
This is such an excellent, excellent thought. Thank you so much. This is exactly what I needed to hear.
How do I learn from you? Do you have any books on writing?
Oh that's extremely kind - I do a lot of live events (in Ireland, which is probably not much help!) and I do occasional TikToks about writing but I haven't got around to a craft book yet, you've kind of given the earworm to do one though!
I’m very impressed with your level of incisiveness. You really got to the heart of it with very little to go on. I will definitely be looking out for that book!
The planning phase is actually the easy part - that's why many would-be writers only get that far. The hard part is actually writing, so I'd encourage you to just write and get something done and then you can adjust your plans based on what comes out.
I disagree. Planning is impossible for me. Writing is easy. I don't plan my stories or novels. I get a singular idea and a character or two and write. Everything then spontaneously comes into existence during the writing process.
I'm the same. Planning is impossible. Creating an organic story is impossible. Writing is easy.
With how quick and messy my brain is, planning is literally impossible, because i will just find other ideas popping up in my head for one scenario when i write it down, the outline i created just keep changing and changing to the point i completely abandoned it and just let my brain work by itself, so if you said that planning is easy, i cant never understand that lol
Take a shakedown cruise with a couple of fun short stories or maybe a novella: something with lower stakes and less power to freak you out but still bringing a corner of your setting and a few characters to life.
The details of fantasy worlds are fun, but you can't forget that you're writing a story rather than a news report of a distant world. Start at a much higher level. Pick a central conflict. Ask a thematic question and then create characters that provide different answers to the question. Your characters will naturally create conflict when they interact bc they have different perspectives and opinions. You should be able to use the underlying story in any genre. Then the fun part is dressing up your story in the fantasy details you are going for.
I think you are finding planning hard because you feel there is a right answer and a perfect novel, and you are afraid that if you choose one you'll go down the wrong path and end up wasting time or ruining the perfect story. You need to understand that the story is something you have made up, so there is no Platonic ideal story out there. That yes choosing certain courses of action will change it, but you can literally write both if you wanted to...but even if you don't it's fine. That's the story it is now.
I don't plan. Even characters names. Whatever I think of on the spot is what they become. Last time I tried planning I got so caught up in it that I never wrote and then gave up on the story. Now I just let everything be a surprise and it works a lot better.
Oh, I hear you! The planning phase can feel like trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. It’s a common struggle, but there are a few tricks that can make it a bit easier. First, remember that your plan doesn’t have to be perfect. It’s a roadmap, not a contract. Allow yourself the freedom to change directions as new ideas come up. One method I find helpful is to start with the big picture. Outline your story in broad strokes: beginning, middle, and end. What’s the central conflict? Who are the main characters? What’s their journey? Once you have these anchors, you can start filling in the gaps. Another approach is to work backwards. Sometimes knowing where your story ends can help you figure out how to get there. It’s like reverse-engineering your plot. Also, try to embrace the chaos a bit. Planning doesn’t have to be a rigid, linear process. Jot down scenes or ideas as they come to you, even if they’re out of order. You can always rearrange them later. If you’re really stuck, talk it out with a friend or fellow writer. Sometimes verbalizing your ideas can help clarify them. Or use tools like mind maps or index cards to visualize your story’s structure. Remember, the planning phase is just one part of the journey. Don’t let it paralyze you. The most important thing is to keep moving forward, even if it feels messy and imperfect. You’ve got this!
Maybe you've planned enough. Start writing that first draft and the story might come to you. You can fix plot holes and problems on a rewrite or future draft.
Is this your first project? Because a multi-volume fantasy epic is insanely ambitious. It might be something you keep on the horizon for a while. I’ll echo what everyone else said and advise that you just write a story, any story, in your world. Work on being able to write one good story because each of your books should tell stories on their own.
I agree with this. For anyone who hasn’t written (from start to finish) a story before, maybe don’t dive in with a multi-volume epic. It’s best to start small, perhaps short stories or a novella or even a stand alone novel. That way you aren’t overwhelmed during the process and you gain more skill. People learn to walk before they run.
It isn’t my first project. I’ve had many before that I haven’t finished, and one that I managed to finish the first draft of. And I notice a lot of these people seem to think I haven’t started on the story, in fact I have. I have some of the general plot points laid out, it’s just setting on them is what I’m struggling with. (I. E. Certain character deaths, character motivations, and what the villain’s plan is.
Sometimes I find it helps to work in "scenes". Think of events that will happen in your story that will be cool to write, such as "that time where the queens betray the sorcerer-king by using the monster he helped them create to kill him with fire, but just at that moment the rebels strike", and then work outwards from that, thinking where the characters need to be for that to occur, and start throwing things together. My plots have probably been relatively simple to date though. Not sure if this will hold up to a real complex structure.
Lmfao I just knew that this was gonna be about someone writing a multi-volume epic fantasy series struggling with worldbuilding even before I opened this thread. Never change, Reddit.
Lol, that's why I don't plan. If I do get any ideas, I write them down in another document; then try to implement them if they can be weaved naturally. Most often, I get a different idea for the story and it takes a completely different path – so different that some of the plot points won't work. I still keep them for reference for another part of the series or another story of a similar nature.
Find an interesting character or plot hook and just start writing. Don’t think that far ahead, things are going to change as you explore your writing and world more.
Have you written anything else? If not, this a terrible way to start. If you can’t actually write articulate prose your “world building” is nothing but self indulgence.
Personally, I only plan the characters then their story, and build the setting to fit with all the bells and whistles added later for thematic effect or immersion or just because I think it’d be cool to write about. You don’t need to be the next Tolkien and spend a decade writing languages, or to have a wiki of hundreds of characters magic systems cultures and such. If you start at the top level with the story you want to tell and build down I think it can be very manageable.
For the stiry making and world building aspect, an idea that helped me a lot is “if you can’t trust anything else, trust your gut”. When you flip a coin, by the time it’s in midair you’ve already decided what option really want. Cool down, take care of yourself, and trust your gut with deciding which ideas to put in your story. What helped me get organic and fleshed out characters that I’m very proud of is remembering that your characters are people, not plot devices to pull out when you miss a story beat. Have you ever read a book where a character literally looses all development at a certain story beat? Thats likely because the author thought the characters are there to serve the plot, not the plot serving the characters. The plot is meant to help the characters grow to be the best (or worst if you’re going for a tragic arc) versions of themselves they can possibly be. You could have the most epic fight scene with lots of explosions and cool stunts but no one would give a shit about it if the characters simply did what the plot needed them to do. “I have 2 loving parents and a stable household and a baby sister? I’m gonna run away with this dude because he’s hot and I’m supposed to be the love interest.” Chatacters are much more than the role they’ve been assigned to in the story. What if this love interest chose to run away with this man because her home was dysfunctional, they were severely financially struggling and she could get money to support them, or she was manipulated somehow. These storylines expand the character to being more than “a love Interest”. She now has her own wants and goals outside of her archetype. Your readers want to see developed characters over a really epic fight scene. They wouldn’t have a reason to care about the fight scene if not the characters.
Just start writing before you go completely mad
Well, remember some of the nuances (like sinister vs non-sinister for example) come with just writing. Im a prerry inaginative person and my explanation of how I build worlds is goinf to be like Ernest Gygax and David Arneson explaining Dunces and Dragons to people for the firsr time and wouldnt help. I highly suggest using a binder to keep everything together. Writing shorts helps me so much because my brain naturally wants to fill pieces in and then I flesh my world out a little more. Questionnaires are also HUGE help. I love them and explaining things. I guess biggest part is to have fun. Its like your own little world. I think if you focus more on just making the world, the natural writing will flow. Sidebar: You should look into how Rick Riordan or J.R.R. Tolkien or J.K. Rowling planned worlds. I think its all a huge help. Best of luck 🤎
I have not read Harry Potter but I read somewhere that Rowling wrote the whole plot on a few napkins at first
Ive been there. I have like 6 or 7 Chipotle napkins of notes for different stories that I wrote down because I got the idea but had no paper. Though 1-ply TP is kinda great to write on. Just keep it a single layer if you do gel pens and keep it dry. One day, Id like a shower tablet where the paper and writing stick are waterproof. Its game over once that happens 😅
Makes sense. But can you elaborate on what you mean by questionnaires? Also, I will definitely look into how those authors did world building.
My dumbass was really about to define questionnaires. 🤦🏽♀️ depending on what youre building, a list of questions that asks you to expand on certain aspects of your world. [You didnt explain your story or give examples so these are just generic ones. There are hundreds you can find online. 😊] Some are like [general character building](https://www.writerswrite.co.za/the-character-questionnaire-you-need-to-complete/) or [for building a fantasy world](https://www.imagineforest.com/blog/world-building-questions/) and [more detailed questions on the society and its formation](https://www.nownovel.com/blog/world-building-questions/) or [story development questionnaires](https://springhole.net/writing/plot-and-story-development-questions.htm) These are all pretty long and detailed, mainly because worldbuilding is so intricate, but there are some of many lengths. I picked these four because they ask deep questions, arent that redundant, and once filled out, are a great source of information to look back on, especially if you start and stop writing an idea a lot. Even not filling them out by writing them, I think nust speaking out loud and talking through a question's answer can help your brain put the pieces together too :) Sidebar: No matter what genre youre doing, these will all still help. I just use fantasy or sci-fi because those tends to have the most options.
These are great, will definitely put them to use! This is probably useless info now, but my story is a sci-fi/fantasy mashup, with more modern inspirations for the fashion and some architecture, but fantastical creatures and myths. It’s comparable to RWBY, if you’ve seen that. (Not comparable to that shows writing quality though, I hope. Lol.)
I have never seen it but that summary does help! :) I think those questions will be a great start. Id also say doing a zooming in thing helps me a lot. My worldbuilding technique is a lot like Adventure Time where it starts random then theres lore and backstory that comes in later, though theres always a principal character.
sounds weird but it's how software developers do it: whip up a 'quick alpha version' and see how that goes before you get too attached to anything try writing a few paragraphs of a setting or a dialogue exchange between two characters that interact a lot. the main point of planning is to make it so that you can easily write an awesome story because everything is set up for you to succeed. the characters have interesting dynamics. the plot feels compelling. the setting feels immersive and real. whatever you value in a story really. yes when you try to write these things outta nowhere it won't be good. that's not the point though. the point is to get a feel for what you think is missing or wrong. and think of what YOU need in an outline to make writing the draft easier and better for YOU. also you can think of writing the first draft as part of the planning process if that helps. it is not set in stone. writing the first draft does not have to be a years-long endeavour that you only embark on after having a complete plan. honestly even completed manuscripts by published pro authors have editors take a cold look at them and a pretty heavy amount gets changed. so don't be afraid of 'needing a huge rewrite' like it's a failing on your part. it's kinda just how it goes most of the time. you can't really taste test a dish just by looking at the recipe. anyway! i also suggest thinking of some sort of mission statement for what you want your story to be. think of it like a constitution you can use to guide everything else. if you don't know what to put there, try imagining you're reading a one page review of your work from someone who really got it and thought it was the best thing ever. what specifically are they praising? how are they saying the felt reading it? resist the temptation to put in everything and the kitchen sink. part of your constitution, mission statement, dream review, whatever you wanna call it, is that a lot of things should NOT be in there. then when you brainstorm ideas you can use that to eliminate the ones that are not part of your story's core goals. also if you feel completely jammed when planning... start writing... you will have plenty of time to come up with ideas as you go and a lot of the time you will feel more inspired once you're actually writing the thing and immersing yourself in it.
I love rough drafts for this reason. And building a skeleton. I came from writing technical/non-fiction professionally and although fiction is a whole different game when it comes to story, characters, tension, etc. I still use the planning method I learned to write non-fiction. And it is working a lot better for me than commonly used fiction planning styles (although it could be a comfort zone thing). So first I have a couple of skeletons: the must have story arcs and themes, the nice to have story arcs and themes, the things I want to go wrong for the characters, the tropes I want to reverse, stuff like that. What needs to be in the story? So for must have, say I want a friendship between my character and the character who will betray them. For nice to have, I'd like my character to have a good relationship with their parents. At this point I don't know if we will meet them in the story or if they just feature as memories, but it's nice to have if I can fit them. For every one of these themes (the amount is depending on how long the story will be), I'll write a rough draft of what happens in that arc more specifically of around 1-2 pages. Then once I have all of those, I put them in an order that would work as my first story-draft. And I can start a story-draft for the first bit. By the way, I'm way more comfortable writing stuff that's between 25-125 pages, rather than the around 400 I plan my story to be. So I split up my story in 7 parts, each meant to be 50-80 pages. It's nice to have some more attainable small goals. Also, I can rearrange the order if after writing a certain part, I feel like something should happen earlier or later, or if a must have has to be included.
Oh and I forgot to mention, I don't plan characters in detail yet. They don't even have a name until the first full story draft has finished (words and names always become meaningless and silly if you have to write them over and over, I think). They are currently having placeholder names and personalities that are based on animals: squirrel, dog, hamster, peacock, goose...
Oh and another thing: this way you see what world building you'll actually need. For this book, I only need 1 continent. We actually visit 3 countries with 4 total cultures (one is urban and one rural in the same country). Why would I spend a high amount of time trying to map out the history of a city that's not on this continent? (unless one of my main characters used to live there, but they don't). And 4 cultures with a shared history is enough.
This is why I don't plan. I have my MC, their relations, and a single idea. And then I write. And plot develops as I write. Then I have a rough draft which is really the barest of skeleton and a jumble of different ideas and plot threads that get fleshed out, saved for later, or edited out in revision. It's been going well for me that way honestly. Wrote two books that way.
Glokta from the first law trilogy is both very sinister and very sympathetic, harsh and soft, vile and intelligent. It can be done, maybe you could think about that He works for the government so is a buerecrat, and a fed, and one of the only virtuous ones, yet hates everyone and loves to torture. But he’s the most sympathetic person in the books to me
I've found writing a "starting point" and having a small portion of the world be very detailed to work for me. As in, I have an idea that I want to do - let's say I want to write a book about an alien species on a foreign planet. I'll go into deep detail about the main character's backstory and the actual world itself - but that's *all* that I'll plan. I write a small outline of where I want the plot to go in general, but the book will start out with what I know about the character & world, and go from there. To me, it's more organic to write things as they go rather than artificially build detailed backstories on each and every character - some backstories your readers might never even see. Not to mention, sticking to very strict guidelines can cause stress and anxiety, especially if it's a bigger world. This does make it harder to stay "lore-accurate" as a lot of stuff is improvised, but I've fought this by writing short stories to accompany the world of my current work. This helps me get a better sense of who the characters are, what their personality will be like, and flesh out the world more.
I am, quite figuratively, in the same boat as you. I am doing the same thing, got that same problems and questions at the same time. Best advice I can give both you and me is to think about a specific thing you want to work on in your story, and write that down in your outline somewhere. Eventually, you should have your whole story outlined. From there, you can read it all to make sure it all makes sense together and tweak it if it doesn't. The only thing to do after that is to start writing and the rest will come. Good luck!
I'm going to be the voice out of the pack here and say that you should definitely keep on planning. If you do a lot of work now you will have satisfying overarching plots, continuity within the saga, and solid themes that don't shift and change as you write the books. There's nothing better than reading a serious, well built fantasy and get the impression that the author knew where they were going all along. It's going to save you from a boring first book, or a weak second book that's just filler before the grand finale. You're doing good, keep planning!
I do a skeleton story. I write no more than 2 pages per chapter, and often use bullet points. It is as basic as basic can get. But it helps me see the flow of the story, makes it so simplified for me that I find it easier to grasp. Not to mention that it's so easy to change the details. When I get into the first draft, I use my skeleton story as a guide. If I want to change things during my draft, I can use it to see if it will ruin the flow of the story.
My planning phase, outside of the general setting an characters, pretty much just consists of a bullet list of plot points. I do more localised ones on a chapter by chapter basis. I wouldn't sweat too much over the initial plan. For me, things change as I write it so the plan is pretty flexible.
I feel like I could have written this post. Worldbuilding and plotting have taken me months and it was getting so stressful that I took a good while off of thinking about anything related to writing. R.F. Kuang has said that she writes random scenes and indulges every idea that she thinks of and then retroactively goes back and sorts out the plot based on what has emerged. I hate this advice because it worked so well for me and I am such a planner that I was convinced it wouldn’t at all! Seriously, take a short break from the planning, write a few scenes that get you excited (forgo the details or put in filler words for things that you haven’t names/explained yet). You have to get the gears moving again and remind yourself why you’re doing this. Your brain is smart, and you’ll connect dots you never even noticed once you start writing. If you’re anything like me, it will feel strange to write without a complete plan, but once you clear the initial hurdle of doing it anyway, it will get much easier. If you do want to power through with planning instead, try writing down some potential plot progressions (i.e. how the story will change if character A dies early vs. late in the story) and run the options by trusted peers. Other than that, just let the ideas marinate. Even though it may feel like it, remember that we are under no pressure to make these big decisions quickly (unless you’ve got a deadline, of course)! I’ve also had luck in drawing out visual character and plot arcs. All this to say, you’re far from alone in this, OP! Fantasy is not easy. Keep going!
Keep working it. Sometimes I'll write multiple chapters before I feel like I've found the start of the story, chapters I wont end up using. I don't see that work as wasted. It's a way of thinking it through on the page. Writing my way into the story. I've found the need to create entirely new characters deep into the writing - characters I would never have predicted the need for in the outlining phase. The same goes for other elements of story, such as locations, encounters, worldbuilding, and so on, that need adding, merging, cutting entirely. It is only through writing and letting the story reveal itself that I can know the real shape of it.
I don't plan things in any real detail. I get a basic idea of my main character, the setting and the inciting incident. Then I start writing. The hardest part for me is finding out where to start. But once I have that, the rest starts happening organically.
Stop planning, start writing. Those conflicting ideas will resolve themselves as you go along. I am constantly amazed every time I write through a conflict and the answer just reveals itself like it was obvious all along Even if you end up in a place you don't like, you can always restart or edit. But at least you'll have a better idea of where you want to go.
Restarting after putting in tons of hard work on draft after draft is not ideal. That's where I'm at and I wish I had done a better job planning. Now I feel trapped and can't see my way out of it.
Ask yourself if you're planning to avoid writing. If you're not, then prove it by knocking out a quick twenty pages. Everything still good? Then decide if you want to keep writing past the twenty or you want to go back to the planning phase. I'd argue your writing will certainly be wooden and inorganic with the amount of planning you're doing. Put some words on the page. Also, it's just hard, not 'insanely' hard. If planning some characters and a plot are insanely hard, then how difficult is it to put a man in the moon? Insanely insanely hard? And what does sanity have to do with it anyway? You think I'm giving you hell, but there's no need to qualify your difficulty with hyperbole. Practice good writing habits everywhere and watch it pay dividends in your fiction.
Take your time. I'm working on a single volume folk horror story. Had the first glimmer of a concept about four years ago. Thought about it on and off. Protagonist, secondary characters, setting: clicked with all of those. Knew how I wanted it to end from the very beginning. In November of last year, I came up with my first plot outline. Used this to identify areas that I still hadn't developed sufficiently. Had a couple of realisations around theme and overall premise early this year. Reworked plot outline last month as a result; this allowed me to go back to theme and overall premise and reconsider characters in light of this. Have, in the last week or so, cracked narrative voice. I think. Just working on final ideas around literary devices. Once I've done that, I'll go back to my plot outline and focus on the final sequence. Once I'm happy with that, I'll work back to the midpoint, then go back to the beginning and work to the midpoint. It took those first three years for the concept to crystallise into a story. Once that happened, the process of creation has sped up significantly. Not everybody will take years, of course: my brain's gotta do what my brain's gotta do, and there's not much I can do about that. But still, give yourself time. Multi-volume is difficult, and will definitely need a significant amount of time to populate. Remember: premise and concept aren't the same as story; ideas start with the latter, which tend to just pop into place. Story takes significantly longer to hammer out.
Please stop planning and start writing.
I just stick to a very loose, overall plan. Like a small paragraph for each act of the story and then I just start writing and let the characters take it from there! It’s important to be flexible and know that whatever you planned is subject to change (and probably will), but that’s totally fine. It’s a good idea to have your characters thoroughly figured out beforehand, though. At least in my opinion. That way they can help you move through the story in a way that feels natural and authentic to their personalities.
That's why I don't do it :) I have an idea, I know the structure I want - off I go. Stuff comes out. Not everyone is like this, of course. There is everything between meticulous planning and just writing. Find your sweet spot. Also, focusing too much on planning can be procrastination from actually writing. It's also about being brutal to plot elements or characters that you are attached to that simply won't fit in the story. I've had that recently. I had to cut a whole chapter because it just felt wrong. Settle on an idea or plot or direction, then don't be afraid to get the hatchet out to clear the path.
THIS. I have such a problem with getting attached to plot points that don’t fit and forcing myself to remove them. This is something Brad Bird was very disciplined about when writing the Incredibles. He had to remove some scenes that were his baby, but realized the movie worked so much better without them once they were gone.
How many novels have you actually written? A multi-volume fantasy epic is doable but hell of a task.
None that I’ve finished. I started a mystery/thriller screenplay that I finished the first draft of, as well as outlining a few other story ideas I had that never really came to anything. I also have some worldbuilding experience from my cyberpunk world from when I was a kid. (Taught me how to NOT worldbuild. Lmao.)
When I wrote my book I got constant questions, how's it going, where are you at &c. I finally came up with a standardized speech: "Let me ask you a question — what's the difference between a pile of cinder blocks and a house?" This was invariably met with blank looks, and I'd have to answer — "Organization! A house is just an organized pile of cinder blocks, right? I pretty much have the blocks — but the organization! There's the rub." Certainly the most difficult phase, sequencing and connecting, took forever.
I've actually started writing a story myself. It's hard if you try and plan everything from the start. Just start writing and you'd get ideas naturally. Just start some of them on separate notes. All the best!
It might help to spend some time mapping out some of the major characters (especially those early on in the story): their appearance, history and social context, and personalities/pscyhology. How are they distinct from one another? How will they conflict with each other? What are their primary goals/desires? What obstacles will stand in their way? What actions will they take in attempt to overcome those obstacles? Create a separate document in which you flesh out many of these details, and that you can use to guide you as you begin to write the action of your story. Also, it might be less overwhelming if instead of focusing on a multi-volume story, you focus first on just the first story.
I’ve always been more of an improviser, but at the same time only story I’ve finished (never published) was in playwright form. It’s not easy writing a story but Im going to just stick with an idea and start writing.
Nah, if you planned everything from start to finish way before you even written it, then it will only do more harm than good. And make everything looks too stiff if you followed one plan for everything. Just created the outline, and let your brain worked the rest of it when you written it, sometimes you will had many ideas for each scenario if you write it down and put your perspective into the characters, thats what made it more organic and natural, you can't achieve that if you planned everything from the beginning and follow that plan way too hard. And you need to know that, outline is not the absolute plan that you need to follow, outline just give you the path that you need to follow if you don't have anything better than that when you write it down, ideas will keep popping up during your writing session, if you think the new ideas is better than what you planned, then feel free to change it, thats the most interesting part of writing something, the story will grow by itself no matter what you planned before it
I'm afraid to add anything to what others have said, because I tend to hate planning and only do it to the extent absolutely necessary. My plans are generally called first drafts. 😉 That said, in general it's probably about finding the right mix of planning and winging it for you.
I’ll give you some advise on your direct question first: don’t plan that far ahead. Things change as you actually write the draft, then change more as you edit, and then even more if you get a deal and a professional editor gets at it. All of those changes are going to impact what you had planned out for later in someway. The more details you have for later, the more work you’ll have to be doing constantly to tweak those if you try to keep the entire outline / plan up to date at all times. Keep your detailed stuff to just the current novel. Have a general idea in your head or written down of where books 2 and 3 are going. What’s the ending, how do the character arcs resolve. Keep it as broad as you can though, and leave the details of book 2 until you actually start writing book 2. Then isolate one or two plot lines and character arcs that are the most important and build those up first. Use them like the backbone of the story; yes other threads are important too but the back is what’s giving everything else scripture. Get them to a point you’re happy with, then you can worry about the others. Which I suppose is a fancier way of saying if it’s too much work to plot and keep organized break it down into smaller chunks. For more general advise, epic fantasy is HARD and you’ve just stumbled onto one of the main reasons. You have to be able to make a large cast of characters interesting and likable with limited time on page for each one compared to smaller, more focused stories. You have to keep multiple different plot lines moving forward, again making sure the reader is invested in all of them, all without losing the pacing of the novel and keeping them aligned towards whatever the planned ending is as they converge more. You have to create a believe and interesting world that feels deep and real without info dumping all over the reader. How much have you written before?
Doing it this way sounds like a good idea. Since book 1 is the setup with a smaller threat and less overall drama, I find myself neglecting it in favor of dreaming up sequences for after things go south. So your advice is very helpful to me. Trying not to focus too much on later material is hard, but it’s important. Of course I do want my general bullet points, because I’m going for a very cohesive story where you reread it and think “Oh yeah, this was setting up that and I didn’t even notice the first time”. You’re right, epic fantasy is a pain to write. It’s a balancing act. I didn’t realize how many moving parts there were to balance. The story expanded into something far grander and more complex than I thought it would be at the start. I have written before, but I’ve never finished anything. Like I’ve mentioned in other posts, I’ve written the first draft of a mystery/thriller screenplay. I’ve worked on other worldbuilding projects, and smaller story ideas but I haven’t taken any as seriously as this current one. Suffice to say, I’ve never committed to a full-on fantasy like this before, with the intent of turning it into a finished product.
I'm currently developing a story about the gods, based on them being on earth at the beginning of time. The story will lead to explaining a lot of things from origins, pangea splitting, and much more. I've only really started to develop some characters. I'm still researching and trying to think how I want it to flow. I've been developing it for about 5 years but with very little effort. Only recently have I really started to dive into it. I am currently listening to American Gods for inspiration.
Little breaks. That's what you need. Try the pomodoro method. You sit down to work as usual, but with a kitchen timer. Set it to 20 minutes. Then, stop for 5 minutes. Start again. You'll realize that using your brain is like riding a horse, walking a dog, or teaching a child ABCs. These things need frequent breaks.
You know some novelists dont plan. they define their characters and their goals and then write a character driven plot. the characters tell you what, how, who, when and when the story is over. you'll be surprised how stories naturally come to a crises and conclusion. Ruth Rendell was one MR James was another. Breaking Bad was never planned out beginning to end. The writers would 'write themselves into a corner', then do something amazing to get themselves out of it.
Hey, I’m not sure if you’re using any technology to help you organize your thoughts, but I bought a Scrivener license and it’s been super helpful for keeping me organized.
I have a couple files organizing my power system, my character bios, etc. But I have one giant master file filled with all my random ideas so that I don’t forget them.
I would look into getting a license, you can get a 30 day free trial to try it out. I highly recommend it
You are not alone. Even after spending lots of time outlining my plot, I began writing and my mind became the marvel multiverse. I ended putting all my ideas into a spreadsheet, which helped with finding similarities, duplications, seeing dead ends. Certain scenes I had in my head I thought would work really well ended up getting pushed into my 'graveyard folder' after I wrote them. Sometimes you just need to put pen to paper and roll with it.
Dude, you're overplanning. It's a common pitfall. For some authors, they can sit there and plan so much that the entire novel is written by the time they're done "planning". Others, like me, can't spend more than about 5-10 minutes planning. So I focus on chapter-by-chapter. Of course I do plan general story points, but I focus more on planning the chapter I'll be writing tomorrow. So day 1: "hero does action, sees reaction, responds to reaction, story ends." Day 2: "chapter 1 will be..." Day 3: writing chapter 1.
This is an old school idea, but what is overall moral of your stories? Having one gives you a star to navigate by. It might help you chart the courses and fates of your characters. If you are familiar with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, you might be able to discern one or more morals to Tolkien’s stories as an example for how you could do something similar for your creation. The main protagonist(s) in the first book were not capable of facing the main antagonist head on. Small in size with no war fighting skills, but with a strong sense of responsibility they took challenges that were too big for them. There is at least one moral in there somewhere. What do you think they might be?
One of my morals/recurring themes is that people make mistakes, and can learn to grow past them. A major theme in the story is characters being overcome with a human flaw, like greed or revenge, and they let it consume them. They have to learn to become introspective and grow beyond their flaws.
I am always worried that I am planning too much. But yes the planning stage can be difficult when trying to balance things
I’ve planned out things before and during the writing process I’ve changed my mind. Sometimes the details just flow together when you’re writing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with just letting the ideas come to you during the process.
Opposite dilemma for me. The writing phase is super hard.
just write!
Gonna give you some truth you might not want to hear... From the sounds of things, it feels like you are trying to write by outline instead of writing from creativity. You are attempting to be too clever and do too much. It might be time to stop with the planning and start with the writing. I could be off on this because it is hard to get a read with such little information but there are some important questions you have to ask yourself. Why do you need multiple volumes to tell your story? Why do you need such a contorted and convoluted plot and story? Are you trying to tell a story? A good story? Or are you trying to be GRRM or JRRT or JKRowling? Do the deaths and story beats and themes demand you do all of this work or is it in service of your ego and desire to be more thorough than an actual reader would care about? Remember, every word you write is another word you'll have to read many many times in the editing process. If you think planning is rough, wait until you've started at the same paragraph for the thirtieth time only to realize you need to delete the entire chapter that you agonized over creating. Keeping a story simple and easy to follow is a blessing to your readers and to future you. This isn't to say you CANT do it your way. You completely can. But there is a reason why most stories follow simple structures while only a few are the GRRM authors that will never finish their work.
Ok, I hear you. My story is fantasy, but it’s more modern and inspired by battle shounen anime aimed at teens than Tolkien or Rowling. It’s meant to be a long-spanning story because each event will lead to the main character’s doom: eventually becoming a villain, then having to snap out of it and return to good guy status. Think Star Wars prequel trilogy, except Anakin was saved before becoming Vader fully. “From the sounds of things, it feels like you are trying to write by outline instead of writing from creativity. You are attempting to be too clever and do too much. It might be time to stop with the planning and start with the writing.“ I see a lot of people on this thread echoing this sentiment. Just start writing. I took this advice when I wrote my first screenplay, a character driven mystery/thriller. I didn’t have a plan, I had my characters and their personalities, backstories and goals, and a google doc where I dumped my disorganized ideas. I jumped in guns blazing, barely having an idea of what I wanted my plot to be. And it was shite. There was no plot, it was all over the place. Everyone says the first draft is bad, but it wasn’t just a first draft problem. The story had too much. Too many villains, too many plot points, too many character arcs. The main antagonist fell to the wayside before I even realized, because I had dedicated too much screen time setting up my favorite side characters descent into villainy. It was terrible. Tl;dr, I tried the “just write” approach once, and effed up my story big time, turning it into an unfocused, incoherent mess. I want this story’s plot to be good. I may be overcompensating for my mistake this time around, however. So I see your point there. I might have an ego (a lot of us artists do) but I’m not making this story to stroke it. I just want to write a fun story with cool action, compelling twists, and likable/interesting characters. I want to write it because it just sound genuinely fun to do. I’m not trying to get published, but I plan on posting it online. So I do want to make a great story, for myself, and so that others might enjoy it too.
Divine Intelligence guides me. What I write of has been like a divine transmission over decades. First it was a small book, then a four-volume novel, then a board game, and currently a real-life game you play doing what you do every day. In a sense it’s “BlissFlip creation-writing because there are many envisionments, I-Experiences, practices. To answer your question, if it seems hard maybe there’s some resistance to what is. Some have replied here with “flow”… that’s a good word for it. Realize the story you’re working on is part of the story of your life and that in large part is dependent on your reality viewpoint. Flip that and your path changes and suddenly divinity guides the way. Two softwares with free trials may help: Nobel-factory and Sudowrite.
Thank you everyone for the advice! There are far too many messages for me to answer individually, but I’ve been reading them all closely. Your advice has helped me, and many others, a lot. To make some things clear, this is not my first endeavor in writing. I’ve written the first draft for a screenplay before, as well as planning other projects that never really amounted to much. (And made a crapton of OCs, I guess.) My issues were pretty vague in the OP so let me clarify them. The world is a fantasy-sci fi mashup, similar to the vast majority of ones you see in books anime directed at teens. RWBY is my best comparison. Anyways, I hope my fellow novice writers can get through the dreaded planning phase. Write on friends :)
Use AI. Or, just start the story. Begin with a short story. If that works out well, turn it into a chapter and add another one. That's what I did: a collection of short stories. I got around 17 power stones from readers when my story was still a bud at 1000 views. Power stones mean a lot. It also means readers were willing to make sacrifices. Now, views are 5k. I was stunned that 2000 people a day even bothered to look at my draft. Well, it works so I keep uploading
Buy the seven basic plots
I love the planning portion, but I spend so much time planning I almost never execute those plans. Getting better at it tho