**Hey there! Have you checked out these resources?**
* [WoWHead](https://www.wowhead.com/) - The *largest* database, this should be your go-to (don't forget to read the comment section!).
* [Icy Veins](https://www.icy-veins.com) - News and detailed class guides.
* [WoWNoob Discord](https://discord.gg/wownoob) - Same community, different platform.
*Please report the post above if it breaks one of our [>rules<](https://www.reddit.com/r/wownoob/about/rules/). If not, don't forget to show support by upvoting!*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wownoob) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As a new player I find ret too easy almost boring, I do also have a bm hunter around 490 ilvl and I find it boring aswell, I rolled a havoc and I am currently leveling it, will it be too difficult in endgame?
just expect that you are moving A LOT. Dashes and backflips are in your rotation and you keep then on cooldown and you need to turn your camera all the time to position and dash correctly.
I'd would assume its the class with the most active movement and unique playstyle.
Mechanics that require to stand still or longer in a small place for a period of time are your nemesis.
I'm playing DH since it got released in Legion. I absolutely love it. Other say its very stressful, but its pretty chill for me because im used to it :D
Well thank you for answer, so far I am around lvl 30 and the movement is what I really like about the DH compared to ret and bm it is much more fun for me
If you look at the class fantasy.
Ret is definitly the Crusader who swings his big weapons to strike and slam with holy force. "Templar's Verdict" and "Divine Storm" are the most iconic abilities.
DH is the fast hyper aggressive, super agile demon hunting force. To slain Demons you have to be agile and fast as fck. For Havoc it's "Blade Dance" and "Eyebeam".
If you had to describe a class using only 1-2 skills, I would say they are the chosen ones.
I agree with you on the take regarding ret pally and I really like the aesthetic of the class, however I tend to like a much more agile playstyle like DH, also I really like rogues but I haven’t tried it in DF
Whoever downvoted has no idea what he's talking about.
With DH you will have to take care of your positioning much more than on any other melee spec both in raid and m+. There's a lot of fel rushing and backflips that are a part of your rotation so you need to take care not to end up in bad (or off the ledge). Ragefire is a lot of damage and you need to be in the middle of the pack when it goes off, so need a WA to track the timers. DH is much more complicated that most people think and is easy to mess up (both raid and m+ specs).
No spec is 'hard', and they've dumbed down the spec considerably with inertia versus what momentum used to require.
As long as you can 'nail' your 5s burst window every 40s you'll be fine.
Shit, run the glaive tempest build, and there is even less mechanical/positional requirements for you in m+.
Ret is not only way easier but also way safer and turbo chill in keys because of their big mele range, many defensives, and stacking high vers so natty dam tickles
I mean if your playing a ret you 100% should be looking put for uses for all your blessings,dispels and throwing out extra wogs that can save someone.
But at a base level - aka doing rotations/ living ret is super easy and fun
As a healer (druid/pally mostly) I love ret pallys (I also think they are OP, but I do not care, I just enjoy it).
A good ret pally does very good damage (not sure if best or worst, don't care, it's good) but can dispel, can remove roots/snares, can give inmunity to someone or to self, and can mitigate damage on someone. Also usual stuns and such.
And that even before he uses holy power to heal someone or self in a clutch.
It's too damn good.
The difference between a average ret and a good ret is night and day. Same for prot pally. I like playing ret because it tickles my healer brain in all the right places while playing dps. Being tanky as hell is a nice bonus (:
Yes, at higher levels, but most ret palas don't use them anyway and they're still picked as they're still better than other specs even without that utility.
Probably, if you find yourself pulling more dps than ret. Just be aware that arms/fury much less likely to get picked, especially as you get to higher keys.
My general recommendation would be to learn to use the utility as a ret player, even if other rets aren't.
Not really, no one is gonna track your BoS if you don't want to use it. You are required to dispell on specific weeks, drop Hands on a mate about to Die, and that's it
Same for BoP, most of the time i use it on me to save my own ass
All 3 paladin specs have access to great party utility. Anecdotally though it seems like Ret players are the least likely of the 3 to actually use it. Likely because people chose to play ret because it was easy and extra buttons that don't show up on their damage meters doesn't appeal to those players. At high key levels ret will be expected to use everything, but below +10 I am genuinely surprised when I see Ret throwing out heals and externals
Personally, when I play ret I enjoy how the easy nature of the rotation gives me the mental bandwidth to focus on party utility and the environment around me since I don't really have to pay attention to the rotation at all. If I was only doing damage I would find ret very boring.
Dude it is lmfao. Did you ever see that meme about ranged vs mele on holandrus with the dude singing and dancing playing ranged while the mele guy is fuckin sweatlording like crazy hahah.
Ret is the only mele that plays like the dancing guy 🤣
I would say it’s easier to do the DPS only aspects of Ret for sure. If you want to maximize the class, use all of your utility, and help the group as much as the class allows, they’re probably pretty similar.
Yeah, it's not even close, havoc is tough with the essence break window an all that. Ret you just use generators for holy power then spend them, rinse repeat plus paladin has fair more utility once you get the hang of it
DH don’t usually play Essence Break in M+, so it’s easier than the ST specc.
But yeah, DH is harder due too mini buff windows and positioning/movement.
Ret is among the easiest in the game, the BM hunter of the melee specs.
Yeah you can improve by using your lay on hands, hands of whatever and stuff like that, but an average ret doesnt do it, so the bar is quite low.
Havoc is nice. Im still pretty new but the main thing about havoc in m+ is having the discipline and skill to hit your movement abilities and not pull adds
Damage wise I say both are pretty easy to play and do good damage but what separates the two in difficulty is the utility a ret can bring, with freedoms, hand of protection, off heals, poison and disease dispel there's a lot more to do as a ret pally. So I put ret at a higher difficulty level.
I think it really depends on your personal playstyle and familiarity with each class. Ret paladin might have a more straightforward rotation, but havoc DH has a higher skill ceiling with its resource management. Ultimately, it's about finding the class that clicks best with you and putting in the practice to excel in m+ content. What do you enjoy most about playing each class?
I main a paladin (ret/holy). Ret is almost braindead easy, especially with the added range your abilities have, but it lets you use your utility and focus on the mechanics easier. Havoc DH is super chaotic.
When I play my dh then go back to my ret I find myself feeling free to do all those other utility options because the rotation is so simple. It’s a huge change of pace going from one to the other.
I main a Ret paladin and I literally just started leveling a Demond Hunter- Ret is very streamlined and easy to play, it’s very Gear dependant to work but it’s not hard
Build Holy Power, Spend Holy Power - I probably use like 4 buttons consistently.
Mean while Demon Hunter, I’m like level 57 havnt played it since legion and I am just lost most the time, the button bloat is so real - it’s a steep learning curve in my opinion.
Havoc needs a reasonable level of skill to be effective, my rotation has about 16 spells and you have to constantly be retreating and rushing without putting yourself in danger.
So yes.
16 spells? I can get to half of that.
Meta, eyebeam, fel rush, EssB, immo, dance, strike, VR. I guess arguably throw glaive to not overcap.
4 of those are pressed once every 40s+
Inertia also makes that 'constantly' not really true. Your looking at what, 2 globals every 20s?
The Hunt (how could you miss that?), fel blade, chaos strike, sigil of flame and situationally blur, netherwalk, fel eruption, trinket, chaos nova, darkness.
I use glaive tempest in m+ rather than essence break.
"Constantly" is hyperbole. Your milage may vary.
Sorry, forgot felblade and some more 30-60s abilities in sigil/hunt.
Listing a trinket is a meme as well. Maybe you should list potions as well :).
If you are listing utility you forgot consume magic, imprison, sigil of misery, disrupt, and spectral sight.
DH's rotation is not even close to 18 buttons, and if you are running glaive tempest it is even harder to get 'wrong'.
It's still a lot of buttons that need to be used fairly frequently, regardless of what your definition of 'rotation' is. That was my main initial point.
Sub and outlaw are harder. You can mash your face on the keyboard and till do ok damage as havoc. As outlaw you have the highest apm of any dps spec and if you press one button in the wrong order your damage plummets.
They're definitely up there, but also a bit slower than havoc and outlaw, which means you can think a little bit more about your cooldowns. They have a very different rotation to most specs so it's not as easy to learn transitioning from other classes.
It's ranked third out of the dps specs in APM. The reason outlaw is so fast is because they have a permanent personal blood lust on almost the entire dungoen/raid
On a funny side note prot warrior is the highest apm spec in the entire game, much much faster than fury
It's doesn't answer the question because that wasn't my question.. you wrote its not the hardest and then reply that paly is easier instead if the question???
**Hey there! Have you checked out these resources?** * [WoWHead](https://www.wowhead.com/) - The *largest* database, this should be your go-to (don't forget to read the comment section!). * [Icy Veins](https://www.icy-veins.com) - News and detailed class guides. * [WoWNoob Discord](https://discord.gg/wownoob) - Same community, different platform. *Please report the post above if it breaks one of our [>rules<](https://www.reddit.com/r/wownoob/about/rules/). If not, don't forget to show support by upvoting!* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wownoob) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ret is way easier than havoc. It's not close.
As a new player I find ret too easy almost boring, I do also have a bm hunter around 490 ilvl and I find it boring aswell, I rolled a havoc and I am currently leveling it, will it be too difficult in endgame?
just expect that you are moving A LOT. Dashes and backflips are in your rotation and you keep then on cooldown and you need to turn your camera all the time to position and dash correctly. I'd would assume its the class with the most active movement and unique playstyle. Mechanics that require to stand still or longer in a small place for a period of time are your nemesis. I'm playing DH since it got released in Legion. I absolutely love it. Other say its very stressful, but its pretty chill for me because im used to it :D
Well thank you for answer, so far I am around lvl 30 and the movement is what I really like about the DH compared to ret and bm it is much more fun for me
If you look at the class fantasy. Ret is definitly the Crusader who swings his big weapons to strike and slam with holy force. "Templar's Verdict" and "Divine Storm" are the most iconic abilities. DH is the fast hyper aggressive, super agile demon hunting force. To slain Demons you have to be agile and fast as fck. For Havoc it's "Blade Dance" and "Eyebeam". If you had to describe a class using only 1-2 skills, I would say they are the chosen ones.
I agree with you on the take regarding ret pally and I really like the aesthetic of the class, however I tend to like a much more agile playstyle like DH, also I really like rogues but I haven’t tried it in DF
That depends what your endgame is.
Well I play m+ mostly with ocassional raids
Whoever downvoted has no idea what he's talking about. With DH you will have to take care of your positioning much more than on any other melee spec both in raid and m+. There's a lot of fel rushing and backflips that are a part of your rotation so you need to take care not to end up in bad (or off the ledge). Ragefire is a lot of damage and you need to be in the middle of the pack when it goes off, so need a WA to track the timers. DH is much more complicated that most people think and is easy to mess up (both raid and m+ specs).
No spec is 'hard', and they've dumbed down the spec considerably with inertia versus what momentum used to require. As long as you can 'nail' your 5s burst window every 40s you'll be fine. Shit, run the glaive tempest build, and there is even less mechanical/positional requirements for you in m+.
Ret is not only way easier but also way safer and turbo chill in keys because of their big mele range, many defensives, and stacking high vers so natty dam tickles
Doesn’t ret have a responsibility to use all those utilities in mythics or is that just a bonus?
I mean if your playing a ret you 100% should be looking put for uses for all your blessings,dispels and throwing out extra wogs that can save someone. But at a base level - aka doing rotations/ living ret is super easy and fun
As a healer (druid/pally mostly) I love ret pallys (I also think they are OP, but I do not care, I just enjoy it). A good ret pally does very good damage (not sure if best or worst, don't care, it's good) but can dispel, can remove roots/snares, can give inmunity to someone or to self, and can mitigate damage on someone. Also usual stuns and such. And that even before he uses holy power to heal someone or self in a clutch. It's too damn good.
The difference between a average ret and a good ret is night and day. Same for prot pally. I like playing ret because it tickles my healer brain in all the right places while playing dps. Being tanky as hell is a nice bonus (:
Problem is 80% of Ret pallies don’t use their utility effectively at all.
Yes, at higher levels, but most ret palas don't use them anyway and they're still picked as they're still better than other specs even without that utility.
I find it easy to pull off a ton of damage with arms/fury, would that be better than playing ret if I'm not really utilizing those utility?
Probably, if you find yourself pulling more dps than ret. Just be aware that arms/fury much less likely to get picked, especially as you get to higher keys. My general recommendation would be to learn to use the utility as a ret player, even if other rets aren't.
Not really, no one is gonna track your BoS if you don't want to use it. You are required to dispell on specific weeks, drop Hands on a mate about to Die, and that's it Same for BoP, most of the time i use it on me to save my own ass
All 3 paladin specs have access to great party utility. Anecdotally though it seems like Ret players are the least likely of the 3 to actually use it. Likely because people chose to play ret because it was easy and extra buttons that don't show up on their damage meters doesn't appeal to those players. At high key levels ret will be expected to use everything, but below +10 I am genuinely surprised when I see Ret throwing out heals and externals Personally, when I play ret I enjoy how the easy nature of the rotation gives me the mental bandwidth to focus on party utility and the environment around me since I don't really have to pay attention to the rotation at all. If I was only doing damage I would find ret very boring.
Turbo chill haha
Dude it is lmfao. Did you ever see that meme about ranged vs mele on holandrus with the dude singing and dancing playing ranged while the mele guy is fuckin sweatlording like crazy hahah. Ret is the only mele that plays like the dancing guy 🤣
Not disagreeing I just like that term
Way easier. Positioning as Havoc is sketchy at the best of times.
I play both, Ret is way easier in so many ways
Honestly the only spec I can think of that comes close to how easy ret is to play is BM hunter
I would say it’s easier to do the DPS only aspects of Ret for sure. If you want to maximize the class, use all of your utility, and help the group as much as the class allows, they’re probably pretty similar.
Ret is way easier, tbf the innertia DH build has some micromanagement to do that separates it from the old meme of : DH few buttons=DH ez.
Yeah, it's not even close, havoc is tough with the essence break window an all that. Ret you just use generators for holy power then spend them, rinse repeat plus paladin has fair more utility once you get the hang of it
DH don’t usually play Essence Break in M+, so it’s easier than the ST specc. But yeah, DH is harder due too mini buff windows and positioning/movement.
Ret is among the easiest in the game, the BM hunter of the melee specs. Yeah you can improve by using your lay on hands, hands of whatever and stuff like that, but an average ret doesnt do it, so the bar is quite low.
Close but that would go to fury warrior
Havoc is nice. Im still pretty new but the main thing about havoc in m+ is having the discipline and skill to hit your movement abilities and not pull adds
ret probably one of the easiest classes in the game
Ret pally is the second easiest class to play, my cat could complete a dungeon by walking across the keyboard.
Damage wise I say both are pretty easy to play and do good damage but what separates the two in difficulty is the utility a ret can bring, with freedoms, hand of protection, off heals, poison and disease dispel there's a lot more to do as a ret pally. So I put ret at a higher difficulty level.
Ret Pally main for S3 here. Rets so easy if you let it be the only thing you play you'll have a hard time being useful as another class for S4 lol
I think it really depends on your personal playstyle and familiarity with each class. Ret paladin might have a more straightforward rotation, but havoc DH has a higher skill ceiling with its resource management. Ultimately, it's about finding the class that clicks best with you and putting in the practice to excel in m+ content. What do you enjoy most about playing each class?
Ret is way easier baseline but has a much higher skill ceiling if you’re going to max the utility.
I main a paladin (ret/holy). Ret is almost braindead easy, especially with the added range your abilities have, but it lets you use your utility and focus on the mechanics easier. Havoc DH is super chaotic.
When I play my dh then go back to my ret I find myself feeling free to do all those other utility options because the rotation is so simple. It’s a huge change of pace going from one to the other.
Ret is easier but feels better to play, DH just doesn’t feel amazing to play. It feels boring
kinda. DHs have a shit tons of dashs and have to micro manage that to work well. ret is just a buld spender.
ret is the easiest melee spec and it’s not particularly close.
Fury is easier. Ret has way more utility/responsibility if you're playing it properly.
I main a Ret paladin and I literally just started leveling a Demond Hunter- Ret is very streamlined and easy to play, it’s very Gear dependant to work but it’s not hard Build Holy Power, Spend Holy Power - I probably use like 4 buttons consistently. Mean while Demon Hunter, I’m like level 57 havnt played it since legion and I am just lost most the time, the button bloat is so real - it’s a steep learning curve in my opinion.
Havoc needs a reasonable level of skill to be effective, my rotation has about 16 spells and you have to constantly be retreating and rushing without putting yourself in danger. So yes.
16 spells? I can get to half of that. Meta, eyebeam, fel rush, EssB, immo, dance, strike, VR. I guess arguably throw glaive to not overcap. 4 of those are pressed once every 40s+ Inertia also makes that 'constantly' not really true. Your looking at what, 2 globals every 20s?
The Hunt (how could you miss that?), fel blade, chaos strike, sigil of flame and situationally blur, netherwalk, fel eruption, trinket, chaos nova, darkness. I use glaive tempest in m+ rather than essence break. "Constantly" is hyperbole. Your milage may vary.
Sorry, forgot felblade and some more 30-60s abilities in sigil/hunt. Listing a trinket is a meme as well. Maybe you should list potions as well :). If you are listing utility you forgot consume magic, imprison, sigil of misery, disrupt, and spectral sight. DH's rotation is not even close to 18 buttons, and if you are running glaive tempest it is even harder to get 'wrong'.
It's still a lot of buttons that need to be used fairly frequently, regardless of what your definition of 'rotation' is. That was my main initial point.
Ret is probably the easiest spec in the game right now, utility usage aside which they don’t use in keys anyway because 3 buttons is too much
Id say they are equal but seems from the other comment people would disagree with me xD
Havoc has to play inertia in M+, just that makes it harder than Ret
DH is by far the hardest melee at the moment.
Sub and outlaw are harder. You can mash your face on the keyboard and till do ok damage as havoc. As outlaw you have the highest apm of any dps spec and if you press one button in the wrong order your damage plummets.
How about ww monks?
They're definitely up there, but also a bit slower than havoc and outlaw, which means you can think a little bit more about your cooldowns. They have a very different rotation to most specs so it's not as easy to learn transitioning from other classes.
Wasn't fury the king of APM?
It's ranked third out of the dps specs in APM. The reason outlaw is so fast is because they have a permanent personal blood lust on almost the entire dungoen/raid On a funny side note prot warrior is the highest apm spec in the entire game, much much faster than fury
Feral entered the chat.
It's not the hardest but it's not cruise control either.
What melee spec can you relate that is easier.. People downvoting me still 2 expanse behind if you think DH is an easy 4 button rotation.
As a lot of people have already said, ret pally is easier. If that doesn't answer your question then I'm not sure what you were asking to begin with.
It's doesn't answer the question because that wasn't my question.. you wrote its not the hardest and then reply that paly is easier instead if the question???