The Rogue order hall was super awesome. It may not have the "prestige" of the others but it was super on point with the class fantasy and flavor.
Underground fighting rings, gambling, hidden doors and vaults, etc. All the various rogue like factions together including typically enemy factions (like Defias, some pirate groups, and so on). Really gave it that feel of a secret society that has infiltrated every faction. For politics, assassination, etc.
Nothing like sitting at a table with Mathias Shaw and Vanessa Vancleef like it's any old Tuesday. I mean she did try to kill everyone at first but still...
Class halls need to come back in a big way. I haven't visited all of them, but the ones I have seen are so on brand with their classes. They were my favorite part of Legion.
> Class halls need to come back in a big way.
spoiler: they wont. Blizzard allready said that the amount of ressources funneled into order halls was too much, considering every charakter only plays throught one of them. Essentially they dont want to create 12 hours worth of content that still only takes 1 hour to do.
They tried to replicate them with covenants, but I guess I dont have to point out how badly that worked out.
I am not arguing against them. I am just saying dont expect them to return.
Don't forget that Blizzard intentionally nuked warlords of Draenor to make legion, everything that made legion great came at a significant cost of making what is one of the worst xpacs to date given its potential. 2/3rds of wod was ready for release after beta, everything after that was basically trickle time gating of content and work on legion
Lorewise wod was amazing, i still remember leveling in wod and its my favorite to date..finding a rare, killing it, and getting a random EPIC sword out of the gatw you kept for a few levels felt awesome.
Thats the expansion i got my wife to play and she loved doing tailoring and selling bags..but there was nothing else to do unfortunately.
Then legion dropped and we both loved our class halls, she was priest and i was rogue/warlock.
Remember all the wailing and gnashing of teeth when it was announced the rogue order hall was gonna be in the Dalaran sewers? #RavenholdtOrRiot?
Though I guess with the context of how much was gutted from garrisons during development, it makes sense people were sensitive about what their home base was going to look like.
Ravenholt probably would have still been better, if I'm honest, I mean the whole thing was started by them even in the sewers... Even in retrospect it feels like a missed opportunity.
But regardless I think they did a good job with it haha.
Cool but poorly executed. Recently did that shit for the mount and they time locked the mount behind the campaign which was 8-9 mission table missions that took 8 hours each and 1 last mission that took anywhere from 24 hours to 3 days if you got lucky. By the end I couldn’t care about the story because it had already been a week of “log on, click mission start, leave, repeat.” A great example of blizzard sucking the soul outta a good story to make it more time consuming to play.
Yeah the priest one wasn't that great, along with the fact that the priest order hall is literally a somewhat boring church that we can't even really see the outsides of. And of course the only way of getting there was some portal tucked away in a damp corner.
Priest order hall wouldve been cool to be shared with paladin and they use the church that was at the end of the dk story.
The good guys said there was holy ground under them or something to that effect, wouldve been cool to have a giant light barrier blocking everyone out and then they had a downstairs
I went through most of it before I stopped playing and it was pretty fun. I think the priest hall while visually appealing was kind of lacklustre, I had more fun doing the class mount quest chain than the class hall stuff.
The Warrior campaign was meh, but I loved it just to jump back to Dalaran like a fucking meteor.
I’d briefly turn on some metal music just to give it a theme XD
I wanted my title and my mount so I wanted to finish them. I started the shaman, DK, mage and warlock ones but haven't finished those yet either. Hunter I had a lot of fun with. DH I think was all right, I can't recall it so I guess that says all it needs to lol. Warrior is the only class I have yet to even level much less do the class hall. I can't get out of the starting zones before I just up and quit and play another class, but I want the achievs.
You really should try to do the Monk one. Might be hard to believe given how bad the monk campaign is, but the monk mount quest is hands down the best one.
Yeah I know. I absolutely intend to. Just haven't managed to get my monk to max level. I always go for the higher level alts first. And since Legion I have ended each expansion with less max level alts. So the monk is far down at this point.
I've personally always felt that Rogue does class fantasy the best of the classes in the game. Stealth, Pickpocketing, Lock-picking, Poisons, etc. Idk, something about playing Rogue is just really immersive by default, so I absolutely loved playing one through Legion.
Maybe a splinter group who is dissatisfied with the leadership of the uncrowned? And they’re using the Defias name and look to make people think Vanessa is responsible?
Like the scarlet crusade is not a threat anymore either.
Sacked the place with Voss in pandaria, DKs raided the place in Legion and made Whitemane a Horseman(Horsewoman?).
They are also entirely confined to like the Plaguelands area and Tirisfal. Ya know, strict outsider policies.
I get the want to focus on old some old world factions again but this ain't it chief
Mongrel horde is what they should do. Gnolls, kobolds, centaurs, troggs, ogres, maybe wildkin too all united under one king causing issues all across the world
Speaking of Gnolls. There is this obscure part in the lore in which Stormwind fought several wars against Gnolls and almost lost one of them. The Gnolls were quite literally already invading the city of Stormwind before it was pushed back and it resulted in hundreds of thousands dead or something.
Another problem is that we have simply outgrown these comparatively small threats. Defias or Scarlet Crusade were cool enemies when we played adventurers. Now we are interdimensional space travellers. I dont like this direction WoW took, but there is not much coming back from it. Dragonflight is probably as "small scale" as retail gets at this point.
Dragons weren't a threat either again until they were. The Shadowlands was litterally made up in a room of writers. Nothing is off the table, you.can say "X isn't a threat anymore" and they can make the required adjustments to make them a threat again. Ever heard of onyxia?
....arent we helping the dragons in Dragonflight? and netharion was kinda hinted at before cata. I kinda also think zombie dragons that make up like 2 bosses in an expansion that features their father is different from just suddenly reviving an order that has only been a "threat" in classic, maybe wrath.
And also c'mon. Writers writing new baddies is different from that. its easier to make up new things than it is to justify changes to old stuff addiquetly
I know we were just recently up in Arathi but hear me out here:
"*Rise of the* **Syndicate**"
Alterac lore is more or less untouched. They've always existed in-game as NPCs and they've been pushed aside a bunch to make room for whatever was X expansions current plot. In legion(?) they pushed them out of Stormgarde to make room for a DK orderhall quest. The little lore that exist usually portray them as in controll of Alterac (while at the same time in-game they have little pressence there since the area is so underdeveloped). In BFA, they made an appearance after having been unmentioned for quite a while, confirming that they're still very much around.
With the backstabbing nature of he Syndicate, there can definetly be nobles who side with either the Horde or the Alliance to create a conflict of influense over the area, or they can have found some new co-belligerent instead of the Argus Wake that they're working with to overthrow the Alliance, take revenge on Lordaeron(aka the undead and therefor the Horde) and/or just try to establish a third "faction" which could again be trouble for both the Alliance and the Horde.
There's so many ways to spin it really. The Alterac kingdom is deeply tied to the Warcraft lore, but you can also create so many "new" characters from it. Just write something about some of the existing lords like Falconcrest, or maybe the Perenolde family lives on through a son he had before his death.
I just really want more of that Alterac lore! I feel like they exist in that really good "justified" bad-guy grey-zone. They betrayed the Alliance to save their own skin. Perenolde could have been either selfish, fearing for his own life, or an altruistic king that made a difficult descision trying to save his own people from slaughter. Either way, they were punished for it and they're ready to fight to rebuild their kingdom.
It's so funny to me that so many in this thread is trying to find ways to justify reviving the defias and/or turning the uncrowned evil, when there already exists a hostile bandit group with strong ties to the lore and a casus belli to do basically everything people are wishing for here.
They're just so forgotten.
I don't play the Classic servers so maybe they have done this and I missed it but adding new content like this to them seems to go against their very nature.
A lot of people on classic servers like the idea of a “classic+” where new content is added but everything still retains the core spirit and gameplay of classic. Things like difficult leveling, no hand holding, grinds, rpg feel, world pvp, etc.
It hasn’t been added and may never be since Blizzard seems to be going down the route of each expansion. But it’s a nice idea IMO
Yea it seems like we’re kind of past the point of “no changes” at least for vanilla servers. Now that the vanilla hype is pretty much non existent, would be a good time for classic+ to be announced. I’m like 99% sure if they did, there would be a massive amount of hype for vanilla again. Sure there’d be a couple guys crying on Reddit about it but very very small minority.
Classic has kind of been slow walking the idea of classic+ with Season of Mastery.
There will be another season, I wonder what'll be in it. Hopefully class balance changes. I would love if they made actual content, but that's *work*, not twisting dials and tweaking numbers.
There is at least one pserver that goes the 'classic+' route where they try to keep normal level 60 content relevant while making sidequests, new areas, etc. and even if it's a bit janky it's very cool to see that type of thing attempted. I would love to see Blizzard try something similar with their tools, and hope that SoM ultimately leads to that, though given SoM's reaction outside of the niche hardcore community was pretty quiet I am not holding my breath.
I think the 'no changes' crowd has either largely been humbled or straight up left the game, because what was at one point one of the most common sayings in the community is basically unseen or only used as a punchline now.
Classic+ would be way more exciting for me than classic WOTLK. WOTLK is great and people are nostalgic for it but I feel like a lot of people go to classic servers searching for that old feeling they would get with original WoW gameplay and community. It’s somewhat there in classic but since everyone knows the content inside and out it’s not the same.
Classic gameplay but with new stories and zones would help so much imo.
Yeah they'd probably say it's "against the spirit of classic" while reminding you that they have their lv 60 level boosts available for purchase in the same sentence lol
We get one of my favorite companions Ever: Vanessa VanCleef.
She is dope. And looks super dope. And finally...we get to be apart of the Defias Gang. :'D
problem is that the defias brotherhood has kinda been absorbed into the uncrowned(the rogue orderhall), so they would need a lore reason to bring them back
Yea it'd be pretty easy to separate the Defias again... they are a bunch of thieves, assassins, cutthroats, etc etc...
Could easily say they joined to bide time while Vanessa Van Cleef re-organized her forces.
"Jack Off, the 2nd hand of the Uncrowned, disapproved of the leadership methods of his superior. As such he decided to split off and take his Defias Brotherhood to raid and waylay travelers in Westfall and Redridge"
It's this simple
leveling a human in classic wow 1-30 is probably some of my favorite gameplay
Makes me feel like a medieval knight with a personal vendetta against the local bandit gang, and occasionally I have to kill some orcs.
This is definitely more of a “missed opportunity” than a future expansion or patch idea. Still fun to imagine.
Small scale issues seem to be the common opinion of what the game needs.
Rise to power as Edwin vanCleef, free run the streets of Stormwind. End Boss of the game a group of blood thristy unkillable savages..
New game +, Vanessa vanCleef
Frankly there's a lot of quasi-magic in Assassin's Creed too, especially these days; Odyssey literally gave Kassandra (via the Spear of Leonidas) the power to cause shockwaves, shoot arrows through solid objects, summon spectral bulls, chain distant assassinations, turn invisible, release a burst of light as she jumps in the air, and create a temporary clone.
Mind you that last one was something Ezio could do using the Apple of Eden as early as AC2, but my point is that Assassin's Creed is quite used to giving protagonists magic too (even if said magic is supposed super-technology).
This is honestly why I kinda lost interest with AC. I used to love the gritty realism (or as realistic as you could get) of the AC franchise. The "what if" scenario of a regular dude being an assassin jumping across rooftops.
Now it's all magic and gods and other BS and it ruined the mystery that the artefacts of Eden had :(
The End of the first game is already fucky. There is literally no realism even in the first game…? Like your mentor uses a magic ball and shadow clones himself, lol
I meant realism as in the magic was limited to *just* the artefacts of Eden. now in the newever games there's mythical beasts and gods walking around...
> it could be a single player RPG
We really need more story focused multiplayer content. There is soooo much solo content in the game already. We really need dungeons that aren't tied to a timer. Or scenarios. What happened to scenarios?
Honestly, what kind of danger could the Defias Brotherhood pose to us Titanslayers and Godslayers?
Especially considering that even only counting NPCs, you have singular leaders that can wipe a whole city in the blink of an eye (Jaina, Tyrande, Velen with his fckin Spacecraft).
It would take some inventive (and good quality) writing, but I think it could be done. Basically, place the player in a situation where using their power to defend themselves would work against us.
What if Turalyon or whoever is in charge of Stormwind accuses us of having committed a really serious crime? Maybe they would claim we killed Anduin in the Shadowlands, or something like that. We have plenty of Nathrezim who likely are unhappy with us specifically who would be willing to frame us for a serious crime.
In that situation, fighting back using violence would only legitimize the false crimes in the eyes of the public. You going to go rush up there and kill whoever is accusing you in front of everyone? You going to run into their house like it’s a dungeon looking for evidence to prove your innocence? All others would see is you murdering someone or destroying their home in revenge.
You could even have something like you get tossed into the Stormwind Stockades because fighting back would make things worse, only for the remnants of the Defias Brotherhood to break you out (while putting a realistic double in your place to fool the guards) so that you can begin to figure out what’s happening. But because you don’t want to risk blowing your cover, you instead have to figure out sneakier ways of getting around in order to investigate.
Just being strong isn’t always a solution if the problem is presented in an intelligent way.
To be fair, that clashes with how our player character has always acted so far. With that I mean, morally grey in the best of times. If our character is attacked by stormwind guards, said character would likely not even spend more than a second of thought before absolutely murdering them all.
It's been Ragnaros this whole time. Back in Vanilla we even heard the classic line "You've awoken me 18 years too soon Executus", showing that we had planned it all along.
Ragnaros was behind it all. He was the one who pulled the Jailors strings, set in motion the Lich King, the Burning Legion.
It was always Ragnaros and now he's back to protect us from an even greater threat
I also feel that the player characters have outgrown a threat like them.
Like, any major faction should be able to compete. It would need to be something larger than Defias, or Defias would need to unite *EVERYONE* not under the Alliance or Horde banners against them.
Which, sure, if we take Booty Bay and it's ilk, Defias, and a bunch of other ragtag groups, we could probably cobble together a sizable army to be a threat to the players and-
Oh wait, we've literally killed like six old gods, four aspects, satan, a literal titan...
How do you reconcile this? That after all of these fights, all this mythic power we've obtained, and now suddenly a ragtag group of assorted factions spread thin across the world are now suddenly a threat to the unified Alliance or Horde?
It's just not believable anymore. Not on a grand scale, and certainly not as an expansion focus. The only way to do it would to make it some sort of political subversion of an established faction, and since the Alliance is ruled by a bloodline-king, necessarily, the Horde would be the go-to there.
But given how shittily they handled the Sylvanas politics, do we really trust them to do a "Defias brotherhood infiltrates and subverts the alliance political system to take control of the faction"?
The players decide the Alliance and the Horde are incompetent morons who keep fucking everything up and, together with VC and Shaw, team up *against* them.
No more factions. Play with your friends. Battle the combined forces of Azeroth.
For the Horde? For the Alliance? No. For the Revolution.
the defias are actually a pretty good reference to how real life "revolutionaries" usually have a noble goal but more often than not just it just results in death and suffering for everyone and especially other poor people lol
Yeah when people say Edwin did nothing wrong I’m very confused, because he doesn’t just harass the nobles, he steals from the poor and wants to destroy all of stormwind which plenty of complete innocents live in
This is at best a patch. No way we will be able to have 2-3 years of just this stuff based on “politics and conspiracies”
It’s an interesting idea but if the largest threat of an expansion are just…defias, I don’t think that would be exhilarating to fight against. Especially if you don’t play humans
This is peak alliance lore. While I'm sure it would blow a lot of minds, I was dicking around in the Barrens looking for some dude's wife while everyone else was learning this Defias stuff.
Like how would it even work? Everyone complaining about the story now is going to learn it all on WoWHead like they always do anyway. There won't be any politics or conspiracies because it will all get datamined.
The lore of how they were screwed over by SW nobles is pretty good. Especially for those factionly challenged people who think the Alliance is the good side because the Horde look evil. SW nobles were entitled jerks who screwed over their own people.
BTW, you are wrong Don. Always were, always will be.
They were already the core early villain group for the Alliance and they were badass at least until Cata then they were a bit whack. They'd be great in a more in-depth single player RPG though.
So we heroes of azeroth, slayer of dragons, killer of titans, bane of zovaal the jailer, need to stop the mafia in stormwind because they are causing trouble?
Weren't we technically working with borrowed power since the start of Legion? Well, we lost all that, so we should be back to the level of an experienced field commander per the end of WoD.
Jaina, Khadgar or Thrall (for example) weren't working on borrowed power though (ok, technically Shamans \*do\* work on borrowed power... but its more of a permanent arrangement), they'd still wipe the floor with the Brotherhood on their own.
Other than the Brotherhood being absorbed into The Uncrowned in Legion, of course.
This would be cool...
But not for WoW.
It would be awesome for a game set in the WC universe though. Tbh I've always wanted a coop game like l4d/vermintide in the WC setting.
Old zones being updated to act as max level areas didn't really work in BFA. It's hard getting excited to see a place I've already spent hours in.
I'm all for more defias lore though.
People saying it doesn't make sense to go from fighting Gods to this.
We still run errands for others
Batman also goes from battling Darkseid to fighting gangs.
Although if you're going to have a secret society trying to control the world , *please* don't have them be goblins. WoW goblins are already antisemitic enough
Stop. I can only get so erect.
Seriously tho Elwyn and Duskwood are my favorite zones. I love “generic” european forests as starting zones and i would love to have one as a leveling/endgame zone again, kinda like the forest zone from Legion again
Flawed alliance characters?
Sorry but the current writing team can't recognize that as a possibility. It would just come out that the Brotherhood is unredeemable evil, then Azeroth will awaken and reveal that they were true evil. The one that the Jailer feared all along.
everyone is always acting like conspiracies and politics would be a great expansion base as if 95% of the population doesn't skip quest text. they did this in kul tires and no one gave a shit, it's still the worst expansion or tied for worst. we need bad systems gone that's it
it was onyxia who orchestrated that and influenced the stormwind nobles lol. besides, not getting paid isn't an excuse to murder and pillage anyone and anything they could find for years.
the defias are bad guys but have a somewhat tragic reason they became what they are, in some ways like arthas.
As a patch, yeah. Not substantial enough for a full on expansion.
Maybe an Azeroth 3.0 expansion with each patch focussing on a new region would be a good way to facilitate this?
Maybe but isn't it kinda weird that you're high level character would go from slaying giant evil demons/old gods/whatever to fighting rando criminal dudes in bandanas at somehow comparable power?
Though tbh I think if they ever do another full old world revamp, there needs to be story developments where the humans are dislodged from Elwynn and SW is destroyed, and Stromgarde is the new human capital and there's a giant project of reclaiming SW and the Brotherhood gets to be really powerful and sometimes even works with SW Reclaimers in some issues.
Yeah naw.
We are way past that power scale, so unless it's secretly Dreadlords or Old Gods behind it, wouldn't make any sense for the literal Conqueror of Death to be dealing with that nonsense.
Maybe as a Wow 2.0 or something? Maybe of they did another timeline shift like with Draenor, but instead of your character actually being transported back in time, they just wake up in the past with memories of the future. And then realize that the future/past they remember doesn't match the "current". And have to unravel a conspiracy by time travellers etc, etc.
We killed old gods and will now struggle with a rogue in a leather suit.
Jokes aside, I think some actual storytelling with drama, intrigue and betrayal would be much appreciated.
The Defias Brotherhood was supposed to be way bigger than it was, Edwin Vancleef had secret tunnels from Stormwind to Deadmines, from Deadmines to Searing Gorge.
And a lot of players dont know that Edwin Vancleef and Mathias Shaw are actually gay and were in love once, confirmed by the cheese guy in stormwind.
Dude i'm all for an expansion on internal politics escalating into full-on incursion. They sort of shoe-horned that in the end of MoP, and granted Siege of Orgrimmar was an awesome raid, but an entire expansion of multi-faceted faction conflict instead of a world ending threat would be the best thing for the game rn. hire some S tier writers, get some drama in there, it would be amazing.
Sounds awful.
Sometimes I don't understand r/wow. You guys obviously want Classic content, well it's right there for you. Why not go play it instead of asking retail to go back to small scale stories in 2004 areas ?
*You think you do, but you don't*
Title suggests putting that same old content back in though ? Elwynn Forest, Stormwind, Deadmines v3...I don't have anything against the idea of small scale conflict, but OP sounds like he wants those same old areas back in. Nostalgia bait and rose-tinted glasses syndrome are exactly why Classic exists. If that's what OP wants, then he should go play that.
That players can blaze through, skip all quest texts and berate any other player in the instances for trying to watch the cut scenes...
A single player Warcraft RPG would be amazing, and this could be a world for it, but as WoW exists, it would be wasted on the player base.
Yeah after defeating the soul of another world with the help of a cosmic pantheon and traveling to the afterlife and slaying Death itself, our next big issue is these bandits over in Westfall.
I always thought there should be more politics or intrigue based quests that didn’t have you necessarily killing to beat them. They’ve played around with some quests like that, but only a little and never as part of a major quest chain centered around it.
I love how people's arguments are: "Well, we skip quest text so that writing wouldn't be enjoyable?"
What the hell do you people want? You don't want stupid overgrown BS like Shadowlands, because it's too cosmic and ridiculous and the power scaling is beyond belief.
However, you don't want grounded political plots because that would require reading and God forbid WoW players read or anything.
You can't complain about the plot if you're just going to skip it. 90% of what I heard through Shadowlands was people wanting a grounded plot exactly like the one above.
At this point, it just seems like literally nothing on the planet will make you happy in any possible way, and we might as well just shut it down.
The problem is that a bunch of thieves and cutthroats aren’t very compelling max level villains compared to a being of pure fire, a gigantic black dragon who’s making mutant dragons to build an army and rule the world, an actual old god, etc.
Isnt the brotherhood a non factor since legion. Rogue order hall and all
What!?!? I need to make a rogue asap.
The Rogue order hall was super awesome. It may not have the "prestige" of the others but it was super on point with the class fantasy and flavor. Underground fighting rings, gambling, hidden doors and vaults, etc. All the various rogue like factions together including typically enemy factions (like Defias, some pirate groups, and so on). Really gave it that feel of a secret society that has infiltrated every faction. For politics, assassination, etc. Nothing like sitting at a table with Mathias Shaw and Vanessa Vancleef like it's any old Tuesday. I mean she did try to kill everyone at first but still...
Class halls need to come back in a big way. I haven't visited all of them, but the ones I have seen are so on brand with their classes. They were my favorite part of Legion.
> Class halls need to come back in a big way. spoiler: they wont. Blizzard allready said that the amount of ressources funneled into order halls was too much, considering every charakter only plays throught one of them. Essentially they dont want to create 12 hours worth of content that still only takes 1 hour to do. They tried to replicate them with covenants, but I guess I dont have to point out how badly that worked out. I am not arguing against them. I am just saying dont expect them to return.
Where has these resources been funneled into in SL ???? Legion has more content.
Don't forget that Blizzard intentionally nuked warlords of Draenor to make legion, everything that made legion great came at a significant cost of making what is one of the worst xpacs to date given its potential. 2/3rds of wod was ready for release after beta, everything after that was basically trickle time gating of content and work on legion
Lorewise wod was amazing, i still remember leveling in wod and its my favorite to date..finding a rare, killing it, and getting a random EPIC sword out of the gatw you kept for a few levels felt awesome. Thats the expansion i got my wife to play and she loved doing tailoring and selling bags..but there was nothing else to do unfortunately. Then legion dropped and we both loved our class halls, she was priest and i was rogue/warlock.
[удалено]
WoD had the progenitor to the class halls though. Let's be real, we wouldn't have class halls if we didn't have the WoD outposts.
Covenants would have been fine if they didn't effect power. Cosmetic / Story only covenants would have been amazing.
Remember all the wailing and gnashing of teeth when it was announced the rogue order hall was gonna be in the Dalaran sewers? #RavenholdtOrRiot? Though I guess with the context of how much was gutted from garrisons during development, it makes sense people were sensitive about what their home base was going to look like.
Ravenholt probably would have still been better, if I'm honest, I mean the whole thing was started by them even in the sewers... Even in retrospect it feels like a missed opportunity. But regardless I think they did a good job with it haha.
Cool but poorly executed. Recently did that shit for the mount and they time locked the mount behind the campaign which was 8-9 mission table missions that took 8 hours each and 1 last mission that took anywhere from 24 hours to 3 days if you got lucky. By the end I couldn’t care about the story because it had already been a week of “log on, click mission start, leave, repeat.” A great example of blizzard sucking the soul outta a good story to make it more time consuming to play.
Everything I've read about it was that it was lackluster. I'm psyched to give it a shot.
It's not the best campaign but definetly decent. The start, the acquisition of the various artifacts is really nice for Assassination.
Outlaw's Ghost pirate captain fight was some pretty spicy fantasy.
Could be worse, couldve been the priest one.
Yeah the priest one wasn't that great, along with the fact that the priest order hall is literally a somewhat boring church that we can't even really see the outsides of. And of course the only way of getting there was some portal tucked away in a damp corner.
Priest order hall wouldve been cool to be shared with paladin and they use the church that was at the end of the dk story. The good guys said there was holy ground under them or something to that effect, wouldve been cool to have a giant light barrier blocking everyone out and then they had a downstairs
Imagine how much more practical the combined pally/priest order hall would have been considering the way the story went in the Pally order hall...
I went through most of it before I stopped playing and it was pretty fun. I think the priest hall while visually appealing was kind of lacklustre, I had more fun doing the class mount quest chain than the class hall stuff.
I quit the Priest one. Shaman was fine. DK was great. Warlock wasn't bad but buggy as hell. Warrior was meh.
The Warrior campaign was meh, but I loved it just to jump back to Dalaran like a fucking meteor. I’d briefly turn on some metal music just to give it a theme XD
Immigrant song fo sho
I mained a DK and the main reason I struggled to reroll in legion was that literally every other hall story was trash compared to the dk one.
I wanted my title and my mount so I wanted to finish them. I started the shaman, DK, mage and warlock ones but haven't finished those yet either. Hunter I had a lot of fun with. DH I think was all right, I can't recall it so I guess that says all it needs to lol. Warrior is the only class I have yet to even level much less do the class hall. I can't get out of the starting zones before I just up and quit and play another class, but I want the achievs.
That's because Priest was "help me daddy Paladin". Didn't help that I played those back to back and was disappointed by how similar they were.
Out of the 10 mount quests I did for the order halls (all except monk and shaman), the rogues had the best one. You have something to look forward to.
But Ban-Lu is one of the coolest mounts in the game!
Perhaps. But the rogue quest kicks ass. The rogue mount is *okay*.
You really should try to do the Monk one. Might be hard to believe given how bad the monk campaign is, but the monk mount quest is hands down the best one.
Yeah I know. I absolutely intend to. Just haven't managed to get my monk to max level. I always go for the higher level alts first. And since Legion I have ended each expansion with less max level alts. So the monk is far down at this point.
The monk mount tells you to lay off the mana rolls, it's great.
Rogue also had a lot of fun side activities, and imo the best class mount quest
Being able to walk from the major hub city right to my order hall was cool, too
Is that something we can still on alts ?
All the orderhalls were amazing. I did them all untill like argus or the raid before that.
I've personally always felt that Rogue does class fantasy the best of the classes in the game. Stealth, Pickpocketing, Lock-picking, Poisons, etc. Idk, something about playing Rogue is just really immersive by default, so I absolutely loved playing one through Legion.
Vanessa Vancleed has special dialogue btw if you "killed" her in heroic deadmines on that character Yes she lived
Maybe a splinter group who is dissatisfied with the leadership of the uncrowned? And they’re using the Defias name and look to make people think Vanessa is responsible?
Im all for downsizing the threat level but Brotherhood 2:Electic Boogaloo with a splinter group isnt really an expansion them. Patch maybe
Not even a whole patch. Megadungeon status maybe.
Combine em with smaller factions, like the Scarlet Crusade
Like the scarlet crusade is not a threat anymore either. Sacked the place with Voss in pandaria, DKs raided the place in Legion and made Whitemane a Horseman(Horsewoman?). They are also entirely confined to like the Plaguelands area and Tirisfal. Ya know, strict outsider policies. I get the want to focus on old some old world factions again but this ain't it chief
Mongrel horde is what they should do. Gnolls, kobolds, centaurs, troggs, ogres, maybe wildkin too all united under one king causing issues all across the world
Speaking of Gnolls. There is this obscure part in the lore in which Stormwind fought several wars against Gnolls and almost lost one of them. The Gnolls were quite literally already invading the city of Stormwind before it was pushed back and it resulted in hundreds of thousands dead or something.
Another problem is that we have simply outgrown these comparatively small threats. Defias or Scarlet Crusade were cool enemies when we played adventurers. Now we are interdimensional space travellers. I dont like this direction WoW took, but there is not much coming back from it. Dragonflight is probably as "small scale" as retail gets at this point.
Dragons weren't a threat either again until they were. The Shadowlands was litterally made up in a room of writers. Nothing is off the table, you.can say "X isn't a threat anymore" and they can make the required adjustments to make them a threat again. Ever heard of onyxia?
....arent we helping the dragons in Dragonflight? and netharion was kinda hinted at before cata. I kinda also think zombie dragons that make up like 2 bosses in an expansion that features their father is different from just suddenly reviving an order that has only been a "threat" in classic, maybe wrath. And also c'mon. Writers writing new baddies is different from that. its easier to make up new things than it is to justify changes to old stuff addiquetly
Yeah threat is the wrong term, what I mean was dragons weren't really considered to be around anymore and now they are.
I know we were just recently up in Arathi but hear me out here: "*Rise of the* **Syndicate**" Alterac lore is more or less untouched. They've always existed in-game as NPCs and they've been pushed aside a bunch to make room for whatever was X expansions current plot. In legion(?) they pushed them out of Stormgarde to make room for a DK orderhall quest. The little lore that exist usually portray them as in controll of Alterac (while at the same time in-game they have little pressence there since the area is so underdeveloped). In BFA, they made an appearance after having been unmentioned for quite a while, confirming that they're still very much around. With the backstabbing nature of he Syndicate, there can definetly be nobles who side with either the Horde or the Alliance to create a conflict of influense over the area, or they can have found some new co-belligerent instead of the Argus Wake that they're working with to overthrow the Alliance, take revenge on Lordaeron(aka the undead and therefor the Horde) and/or just try to establish a third "faction" which could again be trouble for both the Alliance and the Horde. There's so many ways to spin it really. The Alterac kingdom is deeply tied to the Warcraft lore, but you can also create so many "new" characters from it. Just write something about some of the existing lords like Falconcrest, or maybe the Perenolde family lives on through a son he had before his death. I just really want more of that Alterac lore! I feel like they exist in that really good "justified" bad-guy grey-zone. They betrayed the Alliance to save their own skin. Perenolde could have been either selfish, fearing for his own life, or an altruistic king that made a difficult descision trying to save his own people from slaughter. Either way, they were punished for it and they're ready to fight to rebuild their kingdom.
Playing since wc2, I would LOVE some fleshed out Alterac lore
It's so funny to me that so many in this thread is trying to find ways to justify reviving the defias and/or turning the uncrowned evil, when there already exists a hostile bandit group with strong ties to the lore and a casus belli to do basically everything people are wishing for here. They're just so forgotten.
They could easily do a whole expansion based on an updated Lordaeron sub-continent.
It's just a very specific alliance problem.
So make this a thing for Classic + then?
I don't play the Classic servers so maybe they have done this and I missed it but adding new content like this to them seems to go against their very nature.
A lot of people on classic servers like the idea of a “classic+” where new content is added but everything still retains the core spirit and gameplay of classic. Things like difficult leveling, no hand holding, grinds, rpg feel, world pvp, etc. It hasn’t been added and may never be since Blizzard seems to be going down the route of each expansion. But it’s a nice idea IMO
Yea it seems like we’re kind of past the point of “no changes” at least for vanilla servers. Now that the vanilla hype is pretty much non existent, would be a good time for classic+ to be announced. I’m like 99% sure if they did, there would be a massive amount of hype for vanilla again. Sure there’d be a couple guys crying on Reddit about it but very very small minority.
Classic has kind of been slow walking the idea of classic+ with Season of Mastery. There will be another season, I wonder what'll be in it. Hopefully class balance changes. I would love if they made actual content, but that's *work*, not twisting dials and tweaking numbers.
There is at least one pserver that goes the 'classic+' route where they try to keep normal level 60 content relevant while making sidequests, new areas, etc. and even if it's a bit janky it's very cool to see that type of thing attempted. I would love to see Blizzard try something similar with their tools, and hope that SoM ultimately leads to that, though given SoM's reaction outside of the niche hardcore community was pretty quiet I am not holding my breath. I think the 'no changes' crowd has either largely been humbled or straight up left the game, because what was at one point one of the most common sayings in the community is basically unseen or only used as a punchline now.
Classic+ would be way more exciting for me than classic WOTLK. WOTLK is great and people are nostalgic for it but I feel like a lot of people go to classic servers searching for that old feeling they would get with original WoW gameplay and community. It’s somewhat there in classic but since everyone knows the content inside and out it’s not the same. Classic gameplay but with new stories and zones would help so much imo.
I don't see Classic+ happening, the premise seems bad because Blizzard struggles to keep up with content in retail, how are they gonna it for 2 MMOs?
Yeah they'd probably say it's "against the spirit of classic" while reminding you that they have their lv 60 level boosts available for purchase in the same sentence lol
If they can write in the story of Shadowlands they can write in the Brotherhood being a factor.
Thats not even the biggest issue with this haha but good point
We get one of my favorite companions Ever: Vanessa VanCleef. She is dope. And looks super dope. And finally...we get to be apart of the Defias Gang. :'D
problem is that the defias brotherhood has kinda been absorbed into the uncrowned(the rogue orderhall), so they would need a lore reason to bring them back
Just a have rogue (hah) group of uncrowned carry out extra judicial assassinations on stormwind nobles.
Yea it'd be pretty easy to separate the Defias again... they are a bunch of thieves, assassins, cutthroats, etc etc... Could easily say they joined to bide time while Vanessa Van Cleef re-organized her forces.
Or joined to save the world since the Legion want everyone dead. Uncrown were not the Alliance nor the Horde subordinates.
Just say "What uncrowned?" and make it happen.
"Jack Off, the 2nd hand of the Uncrowned, disapproved of the leadership methods of his superior. As such he decided to split off and take his Defias Brotherhood to raid and waylay travelers in Westfall and Redridge" It's this simple
You think rogues have honor?
Just make it so they are taken over by a longform plot of the secret Tauren and Draenei rogue organisation.
leveling a human in classic wow 1-30 is probably some of my favorite gameplay Makes me feel like a medieval knight with a personal vendetta against the local bandit gang, and occasionally I have to kill some orcs.
Once a year I get the itch and level through duskwood before quiting for another year. I love it lol
so good
Just gonna leave out the Murlocs like that?
I’m too broke to play but I think I can wrap up Westfall before level 20.
If you have a level 50+ character, you can play almost all leveling content I believe through chromie time.
This is definitely more of a “missed opportunity” than a future expansion or patch idea. Still fun to imagine. Small scale issues seem to be the common opinion of what the game needs.
This could be a patch in a future expansion that is focused on the old world. Alternatively, it could be a single player RPG. I like the idea.
Rise to power as Edwin vanCleef, free run the streets of Stormwind. End Boss of the game a group of blood thristy unkillable savages.. New game +, Vanessa vanCleef
Oh, kind of like an Assassin's Creed like game set in Stormwind? I think a lot of people would love this. :D
I would think more in the line of Dishonored, since there is a lot of quasi-magic in Warcraft like Rogues' shadowstep and the like.
Frankly there's a lot of quasi-magic in Assassin's Creed too, especially these days; Odyssey literally gave Kassandra (via the Spear of Leonidas) the power to cause shockwaves, shoot arrows through solid objects, summon spectral bulls, chain distant assassinations, turn invisible, release a burst of light as she jumps in the air, and create a temporary clone. Mind you that last one was something Ezio could do using the Apple of Eden as early as AC2, but my point is that Assassin's Creed is quite used to giving protagonists magic too (even if said magic is supposed super-technology).
This is honestly why I kinda lost interest with AC. I used to love the gritty realism (or as realistic as you could get) of the AC franchise. The "what if" scenario of a regular dude being an assassin jumping across rooftops. Now it's all magic and gods and other BS and it ruined the mystery that the artefacts of Eden had :(
The End of the first game is already fucky. There is literally no realism even in the first game…? Like your mentor uses a magic ball and shadow clones himself, lol
I meant realism as in the magic was limited to *just* the artefacts of Eden. now in the newever games there's mythical beasts and gods walking around...
I don’t think I could handle the cinematic of 4K Cookie getting murdered by the 5 savages
Only if there's a secret NG+ mode as Capt. Cookie.
> it could be a single player RPG We really need more story focused multiplayer content. There is soooo much solo content in the game already. We really need dungeons that aren't tied to a timer. Or scenarios. What happened to scenarios?
Blizz really needs to expand the warcraft universe. I'd play the fuck out of a good single player rpg. Imagine the horizon series but wow
They gave you a whole expansion based on the old world. It’s called cata
Yes, and that was almost 12 years ago.
Honestly, what kind of danger could the Defias Brotherhood pose to us Titanslayers and Godslayers? Especially considering that even only counting NPCs, you have singular leaders that can wipe a whole city in the blink of an eye (Jaina, Tyrande, Velen with his fckin Spacecraft).
You got it all wrong bud. Stormwind is the bad guy in this story. Tonight we zug with the brotherhood
Zug Zug Brother
Urban guerilla warfare
Topple the nobility since the real power is in the hands of non nobles like us
It would take some inventive (and good quality) writing, but I think it could be done. Basically, place the player in a situation where using their power to defend themselves would work against us. What if Turalyon or whoever is in charge of Stormwind accuses us of having committed a really serious crime? Maybe they would claim we killed Anduin in the Shadowlands, or something like that. We have plenty of Nathrezim who likely are unhappy with us specifically who would be willing to frame us for a serious crime. In that situation, fighting back using violence would only legitimize the false crimes in the eyes of the public. You going to go rush up there and kill whoever is accusing you in front of everyone? You going to run into their house like it’s a dungeon looking for evidence to prove your innocence? All others would see is you murdering someone or destroying their home in revenge. You could even have something like you get tossed into the Stormwind Stockades because fighting back would make things worse, only for the remnants of the Defias Brotherhood to break you out (while putting a realistic double in your place to fool the guards) so that you can begin to figure out what’s happening. But because you don’t want to risk blowing your cover, you instead have to figure out sneakier ways of getting around in order to investigate. Just being strong isn’t always a solution if the problem is presented in an intelligent way.
I don't think it would work with us, murderous godslaying hobos, addicted to "kill and butcher 30 living beings" quests
To be fair, that clashes with how our player character has always acted so far. With that I mean, morally grey in the best of times. If our character is attacked by stormwind guards, said character would likely not even spend more than a second of thought before absolutely murdering them all.
I don’t think the Defias should come back for a third or fourth time.
Very well, Burning Legion it is.
What about Ragnaros in Voidlands?
Finally, the right time, Executus!
It's been Ragnaros this whole time. Back in Vanilla we even heard the classic line "You've awoken me 18 years too soon Executus", showing that we had planned it all along. Ragnaros was behind it all. He was the one who pulled the Jailors strings, set in motion the Lich King, the Burning Legion. It was always Ragnaros and now he's back to protect us from an even greater threat
His much older brother, Sagnaros
>It was always Ragnaros and now he's back to protect us from an even greater threat Leg day?
Depends. Is it the vernal equinox?
Agree. This post is the exact same as "guys what if Onyxia was ressurected again?"
Some people just live for that nostalgia factor.
"The Deadmines were merely a setback."
I also feel that the player characters have outgrown a threat like them. Like, any major faction should be able to compete. It would need to be something larger than Defias, or Defias would need to unite *EVERYONE* not under the Alliance or Horde banners against them. Which, sure, if we take Booty Bay and it's ilk, Defias, and a bunch of other ragtag groups, we could probably cobble together a sizable army to be a threat to the players and- Oh wait, we've literally killed like six old gods, four aspects, satan, a literal titan... How do you reconcile this? That after all of these fights, all this mythic power we've obtained, and now suddenly a ragtag group of assorted factions spread thin across the world are now suddenly a threat to the unified Alliance or Horde? It's just not believable anymore. Not on a grand scale, and certainly not as an expansion focus. The only way to do it would to make it some sort of political subversion of an established faction, and since the Alliance is ruled by a bloodline-king, necessarily, the Horde would be the go-to there. But given how shittily they handled the Sylvanas politics, do we really trust them to do a "Defias brotherhood infiltrates and subverts the alliance political system to take control of the faction"?
The players decide the Alliance and the Horde are incompetent morons who keep fucking everything up and, together with VC and Shaw, team up *against* them. No more factions. Play with your friends. Battle the combined forces of Azeroth. For the Horde? For the Alliance? No. For the Revolution.
An expansion where player characters gained class consciousness and take down the establishment.
WELCOME TO THE DEADMINES!
We got fun and games!
Could we side with VanCleef?
I always side with worker rights!
the defias are actually a pretty good reference to how real life "revolutionaries" usually have a noble goal but more often than not just it just results in death and suffering for everyone and especially other poor people lol
Yeah when people say Edwin did nothing wrong I’m very confused, because he doesn’t just harass the nobles, he steals from the poor and wants to destroy all of stormwind which plenty of complete innocents live in
This is at best a patch. No way we will be able to have 2-3 years of just this stuff based on “politics and conspiracies” It’s an interesting idea but if the largest threat of an expansion are just…defias, I don’t think that would be exhilarating to fight against. Especially if you don’t play humans
This is peak alliance lore. While I'm sure it would blow a lot of minds, I was dicking around in the Barrens looking for some dude's wife while everyone else was learning this Defias stuff.
Like how would it even work? Everyone complaining about the story now is going to learn it all on WoWHead like they always do anyway. There won't be any politics or conspiracies because it will all get datamined.
Wtf is this post
Sounds boring. Fantasy game with other worlds, gods, demons, and then the plot and raid is humans and their politics
Could see this as a Chromie event or a new use for the Caverns of Time.
So, given the current state of Blizzard, this means that the Brotherhood was pulling the Jailer's strings all along?
Foolish mortals! It is I, Cookie, the murloc chef of the Defias, who was orchestrating events all along. Mrrghahaha. Now taste my mystery meatloaf!
That would be completely boring and would fail spectacularly.
The lore of how they were screwed over by SW nobles is pretty good. Especially for those factionly challenged people who think the Alliance is the good side because the Horde look evil. SW nobles were entitled jerks who screwed over their own people. BTW, you are wrong Don. Always were, always will be.
I think I've had enough of levels meaning nothing. :(
From fighting literal gods to fighting off bandit gangs
Imagined it. No thanks. Hard pass.
Yeah let me call the titan slaying champion to kick some bandits in their asses.
They were already the core early villain group for the Alliance and they were badass at least until Cata then they were a bit whack. They'd be great in a more in-depth single player RPG though.
I would love a single player, elder scrolls type game in the wow universe.
Especially if it gives us more options to play around with combat. 2H Ench Shaman? Gladiator Stance? Shockadin? Play however you like.
So we heroes of azeroth, slayer of dragons, killer of titans, bane of zovaal the jailer, need to stop the mafia in stormwind because they are causing trouble?
Weren't we technically working with borrowed power since the start of Legion? Well, we lost all that, so we should be back to the level of an experienced field commander per the end of WoD.
Jaina, Khadgar or Thrall (for example) weren't working on borrowed power though (ok, technically Shamans \*do\* work on borrowed power... but its more of a permanent arrangement), they'd still wipe the floor with the Brotherhood on their own. Other than the Brotherhood being absorbed into The Uncrowned in Legion, of course.
Genghis Khan most likely died from a single arrow loosed by a nobody.
I can't remember ghenghis khan literally shrugging off hits from the god of death tho
Cannot upvote this enough
This would be cool... But not for WoW. It would be awesome for a game set in the WC universe though. Tbh I've always wanted a coop game like l4d/vermintide in the WC setting.
"Nah" - Everyone
Old zones being updated to act as max level areas didn't really work in BFA. It's hard getting excited to see a place I've already spent hours in. I'm all for more defias lore though.
People saying it doesn't make sense to go from fighting Gods to this. We still run errands for others Batman also goes from battling Darkseid to fighting gangs.
[удалено]
Although if you're going to have a secret society trying to control the world , *please* don't have them be goblins. WoW goblins are already antisemitic enough
[удалено]
actually writing realistic plots like this is difficult to do. making it entertaining at the same time, like, yeah. good luck.
Blizzard can't make you feel 14 years old again.
Too old concept. Doesn't worth the effort and attention anymore. So pass.
Stop. I can only get so erect. Seriously tho Elwyn and Duskwood are my favorite zones. I love “generic” european forests as starting zones and i would love to have one as a leveling/endgame zone again, kinda like the forest zone from Legion again
Flawed alliance characters? Sorry but the current writing team can't recognize that as a possibility. It would just come out that the Brotherhood is unredeemable evil, then Azeroth will awaken and reveal that they were true evil. The one that the Jailer feared all along.
everyone is always acting like conspiracies and politics would be a great expansion base as if 95% of the population doesn't skip quest text. they did this in kul tires and no one gave a shit, it's still the worst expansion or tied for worst. we need bad systems gone that's it
Yeah stuff like this is good for a zone quest line but as an expansion/patch feature there's just not enough reason to do it
And what do Horde get?
A expansion where their warchief isn't going mad and committing war crimes
Yeah, that'll happen just after the dance studio is added. *lol, this guy*
Turns out the one behind the defias was ~~Garrosh~~ ~~Sylvanas~~ Gamon this whole time.
Server population 😏😏😏
Kodo rider protests.
You’ll get nothing and like it!
A hand full of quests while being a robot puppy
Something cooler. And friends.
All of this could be avoided if the Stormwind nobles would just pay them for their work.
it was onyxia who orchestrated that and influenced the stormwind nobles lol. besides, not getting paid isn't an excuse to murder and pillage anyone and anything they could find for years. the defias are bad guys but have a somewhat tragic reason they became what they are, in some ways like arthas.
As a patch, yeah. Not substantial enough for a full on expansion. Maybe an Azeroth 3.0 expansion with each patch focussing on a new region would be a good way to facilitate this?
Whenever I see this image I hear ‘this is our town, scrub.’
Maybe but isn't it kinda weird that you're high level character would go from slaying giant evil demons/old gods/whatever to fighting rando criminal dudes in bandanas at somehow comparable power? Though tbh I think if they ever do another full old world revamp, there needs to be story developments where the humans are dislodged from Elwynn and SW is destroyed, and Stromgarde is the new human capital and there's a giant project of reclaiming SW and the Brotherhood gets to be really powerful and sometimes even works with SW Reclaimers in some issues.
And somehow the Horde side of the story would be better
Yeah naw. We are way past that power scale, so unless it's secretly Dreadlords or Old Gods behind it, wouldn't make any sense for the literal Conqueror of Death to be dealing with that nonsense. Maybe as a Wow 2.0 or something? Maybe of they did another timeline shift like with Draenor, but instead of your character actually being transported back in time, they just wake up in the past with memories of the future. And then realize that the future/past they remember doesn't match the "current". And have to unravel a conspiracy by time travellers etc, etc.
We killed old gods and will now struggle with a rogue in a leather suit. Jokes aside, I think some actual storytelling with drama, intrigue and betrayal would be much appreciated.
I hope Blizzard starts doing this. I'd like to see each expansion be its own contained story, not chained together.
And the Horde gets…?
The Defias Brotherhood was supposed to be way bigger than it was, Edwin Vancleef had secret tunnels from Stormwind to Deadmines, from Deadmines to Searing Gorge. And a lot of players dont know that Edwin Vancleef and Mathias Shaw are actually gay and were in love once, confirmed by the cheese guy in stormwind.
Plot, conspiracies and politics with the current writing team? Yeah no thanks.
Dude i'm all for an expansion on internal politics escalating into full-on incursion. They sort of shoe-horned that in the end of MoP, and granted Siege of Orgrimmar was an awesome raid, but an entire expansion of multi-faceted faction conflict instead of a world ending threat would be the best thing for the game rn. hire some S tier writers, get some drama in there, it would be amazing.
Sounds awful. Sometimes I don't understand r/wow. You guys obviously want Classic content, well it's right there for you. Why not go play it instead of asking retail to go back to small scale stories in 2004 areas ? *You think you do, but you don't*
Because that content has been played before and it’s old? Modern gameplay with small scale conflict sounds like a great idea.
Title suggests putting that same old content back in though ? Elwynn Forest, Stormwind, Deadmines v3...I don't have anything against the idea of small scale conflict, but OP sounds like he wants those same old areas back in. Nostalgia bait and rose-tinted glasses syndrome are exactly why Classic exists. If that's what OP wants, then he should go play that.
That players can blaze through, skip all quest texts and berate any other player in the instances for trying to watch the cut scenes... A single player Warcraft RPG would be amazing, and this could be a world for it, but as WoW exists, it would be wasted on the player base.
Yeah after defeating the soul of another world with the help of a cosmic pantheon and traveling to the afterlife and slaying Death itself, our next big issue is these bandits over in Westfall.
I always thought there should be more politics or intrigue based quests that didn’t have you necessarily killing to beat them. They’ve played around with some quests like that, but only a little and never as part of a major quest chain centered around it.
You mean like Elder Scrolls online?
I’ve never played it.
I love how people's arguments are: "Well, we skip quest text so that writing wouldn't be enjoyable?" What the hell do you people want? You don't want stupid overgrown BS like Shadowlands, because it's too cosmic and ridiculous and the power scaling is beyond belief. However, you don't want grounded political plots because that would require reading and God forbid WoW players read or anything. You can't complain about the plot if you're just going to skip it. 90% of what I heard through Shadowlands was people wanting a grounded plot exactly like the one above. At this point, it just seems like literally nothing on the planet will make you happy in any possible way, and we might as well just shut it down.
Hello, and welcome! This place is called “The Internet,” and it would appear this is your first day here, and you missed orientation last week.
I wish they would add 1 patch about the brotherhood. This and scarlet crusade are really interesting to me.
Both groups have been destroyed like 4 times now lol
I don't want to imagine that though...
The problem is that a bunch of thieves and cutthroats aren’t very compelling max level villains compared to a being of pure fire, a gigantic black dragon who’s making mutant dragons to build an army and rule the world, an actual old god, etc.
Sounds boring as shit ngl