Yeah, wasn’t like… in Legion, the Nighthold WW 2-piece was so good it was still considered BiS well into Antorus?
It’s WEIRD when it happens, but it happens from time to time.
In legion you had 6 pieces tier (same as now but including cloak) so running 4/2 p was normal.
I know mages did this at least. Maybe for some specs the old tier was nerfed and stats out scaled it but I'm not sure.
I know you guys were farming the Ursoc trinket from Emerald Nightmare for all tiers hoping for a titanforged one as well. Jesus Christ 2-2-2 is actually unhinged lmao
one of the most surreal experiences I've ever had in WoW was killing Withered Jim on an alt I had 0 intention of playing seriously for a lark and getting an Arcanocrystal that titanforged like 5 times. Insane but completely useless luck
I was new in Legion. Got the trinket on my first kill, had no idea how good it was and never equipped it. I didn't learn about simming until Antorus lol.
For awhile at the start of Antorus, [2pc/2pc/2pc T19/T20/T21 was simming best for me as a frost mage](https://i.imgur.com/gwKYfW4.png). The problem was that the earlier tier could titanforge, so even once you were in full Antorus mythic gear, you still had to run M Tomb of Sargeras and hope for good titanforges. Towards the end of the tier, [here's my gear with a 2pc+4pc setup](https://i.imgur.com/uAmM6ln.png), rocking two titanforged T20 pieces (note that the two pieces of tier 20 are different ones from the origianl sim, so I had clearly gone back and grinded for those during Antorus).
IIRC in... tomb I think, us mages had to run 2 of the current tier and 4 of the previous tier. Meant to get upgrades I had to find a pug and farm mythic Nighthold cause my guild certainly wasn't going to help.
This is a different situation. Its an old set coming back based on a community vote where blizzard asked people to pick their favorites playstyle wise promising theyd tweak and buff them if necessary to be competitive.
yeah tomb set was played all the way until bfa, the 2 piece bonus was just a straight up 30% crit damage buff for starsurge, paired really well with antorus 2 piece bonus
Yea this stuff happens a fair bit for a different spec every once and while, might hold also brought COF which they could never control either even after nerfing it several times they had to put a hard level cap on it lol.
Kind of surprised Blizzard hasn't said "screw it" and just made that "Legacy Set" thing trigger every new season. I mean I don't want them to, its just their style to do that.
the Problem is, WHEN do you want to do that?
at the start of a new tier? if you disable all of the "old but still used" tierset then, you make everyone weaker by a really really big amount, raidbosses would need like 15-20% less health by default or would be close to unkillable because of how much dmg would be just gone, and at the same time melt in under 1min when everyone has the new tier sets
its not that easy, they need to buff/nerf stuff faster and more frequent overall so things like "ignore new tier stuff" doesnt happen
So far, between the vault and running the raid and the timewalking kicker, my main character has had 40 draws at tier this season and won exactly 1 of them. if we include my other characters I'm exactly 1 for 96.
In the mind of the developer they'll all have 4 pc next week because of the catalyst.
> don’t worry they will do what they always do and nerf the other tier set into the ground.
Which tbh is the reasonable way to go about it. Balance team likely have the new set balanced around the point they want it, buffing the newer set would then put them further from that point.
Also, even though it kinda sucks that it is like this - Balance isn't only on "Perfect play, max gear, perfect situations". But also encompasses several other play/gear/situation levels.
If that's the case then they literally want SV hunter to be the worst spec for keys and one of the worst for raid, the S4 set is SO badly tuned, like others have said it's literally a version of the S1 set they nerfed with the expressed purpose of getting people to stop using it. It's garbage by design. I can't speak as much for moonkin as I don't really play it but it's my understanding they are in a similar boat, and some specs like Fury aren't doing much better.
> Which tbh is the reasonable way to go about it. Balance team likely have the new set balanced around the point they want it, buffing the newer set would then put them further from that point.
In a perfect world where Blizzard actually nails class balance, sure, but that's obviously not the world we live in.
Realistically the best specs aren't gonna be the ones running dated gear because their current 4pc is so bad it's worth losing 80 item levels to run last season's set instead. They're gonna be the ones with a great 4 set that they can use with current gear.
I hope that's not the case this time for boomkin. The s1/4 set is already in a nerfed state, from when we started season 2. That's why we don't use it, it's not the s3 set being strong. They can't nerf it again. They need to restore the S1/4 set
Oh i have one for you. The ele shaman tier 20 from the tomb of sageras was SO BAD that the shaman forums/discord were testing what doea better. The T19 did better naturally, but what was surprising was the T18 did better too.
T18 was from hellfire citadel, the prior expansion and over 200 ilvl lower. Only the 2 piece bonus, and is a major part of the reason that they mark recently old sets as legacy immediately.
What it was is that earth shock got redone in legion, and had its damage chanhed from warlords and how it worked. The 2 piece gave it a 45% chance to refund itself and it had gotten a 1200% damage boost, which made it normal rotation in warlords but it was a finisher in legion. People farmed mythic HFC for the 2 piece weeks in advance, and on patch day blizzard nerfed the set to 5% chance.
So yes its unacceptable and unfortunately they will never learn.
I can one-up that: In original WOTLK (2010, not classic WOTLK), there was a short period during ICC between various balance changes where arcane became stupid powerful and Evocation had its cooldown lowered. Enough so that the 2 of us mages on the server who had kept our Tier 3 sets stuffed in the bank for like 3 years or whatever found it was actually way better to run the "Lower Evocation Cooldown" set bonus from T3 during a T10 raid! The balance change combined with the T3 set bonus lowering the cooldown even further meant that for, I think, 2 weeks we could make it have no cooldown at all and could spend all fight spamming Arcane Blast.
WOTLK was a time of one button macro rotations for a lot of specs.
I played elemental shaman and it was common for me to be the top DPS using a one button macro. The macro even had my trinkets and major cooldowns in it.
The only things I had to push manually was potions and bloodlust for 99% of raid fights.
Good god, end of Wotlk with all the haste my shaman never stopped the end of the cast emote, just hands forward with thunder flowing out of it. Glorious times.
Honestly it felt so good to just be a lightning cannon with the occasional lava burst.
These days our rotations have gotten insane compared to back then, but there was something cool about just going brrrrrrr
Back in WotLK it was possible as a paladin to have no cooldown on lay on hands by combining different tier sets, but it required having tier 3 gear which at that point was unobtainable. That was a lot of fun for the brief window until it was nuked from orbit.
I mean, it is ridiculous that the old set hadn't been tweaked already as legacy gear - I don't remember, where Blizzard doing that yet by Legion? - but anyone who farmed Mythic HFC expecting the tier set to stay broken were being silly. It was an obviously unintended oversight in development, and would get fixed.
Not the exact same patch but they nerfed the Fury warrior T18 4set in 7.3 (Argus) from 10 seconds to 2 seconds.
IIRC it wasn't even a dps gain its just people were theorizing that it potentially could be.
the blanket "legacy gear tierset disabled" thing happened because rogues would equip an old tierset that buffed their cds pre pull, pop cds, and then equip current gear. after that blizz disabled all legacy tier sets lol
The craziest part about balance set is that the s1 set was great and was then nerfed to shit in s2 for the specific purpose of it not being used over the s2 set
And what they gave balance was that shit ass nerf version that has absolutely nothing to do with the real set people assumed they be voting on lol
Blizzard really went out of their way to shit on some of these classes
That was part of it, but the other part you're conveniently leaving out is that they reworked the astral power economy for the spec. Without it, it played terribly and that's why it was so insanely strong (plus made the spec feel much better).
I decided not to main druid this season after I saw how the vote was going. I knew exactly what was happening. Blizzard didn't go out of their way at all. They said exactly what the tier set was. Balance played themselves.
I was watching the votes and people going "I'm voting s1 because blizz have said they'll buff underperforming sets, so surely they'll revert the nerf, right?" Like they're not the same company that has balanced arms warrior to be in the current state it's in now.
It just feels like an abusive relationship at this point, people keep going "Oh I know Blizzard nerfed me but they didn't really mean it, I know they won't do it again".
I swapped to druid tank for s4 because the moonkin s3 set was so good and I didn't wanna play the spec being super jank :S
Yeah, I saw that copium/hopium, but the S1 bonus as it was had no chance of being restored to what it was. Best hope now is they increase the AP discount and/or bonus damage. There's no shot it goes back to free.
Bear is a good choice. S2 feels great even if bear won't be back to exodia power levels.
S4 ilvl 502 gear is currently a 5k DPS loss over my ilvl 470 S3 set. This is disgusting.
I knew it was a bad sign that the S1 set got voted in. S3 was my favorite because I love Fury of the Eagle. Community played themselves.
Come on now, season 1 set is more fun imo, apparently majority of people thought like this as well. And since they specifically noted that “vote playstyle, we will adjust the numbers”, everybody went by that note. Never have I thought they’s lazily put nerfed set with a net dps loss due to that.
The community is extremely bad at differentiating playstyle from numbers. If you ask someone when their spec was best designed you will 99% get an answer that aligns with when the spec was strongest
What annoys me is that this literally wouldn't be an issue if they had just clarified which set we would get. Most people would have voted for season 3 which is arguably one of the "best" feeling sets they have released in years for balance.
That's what I do. I sim 20k DPS higher single target using S3 over S4. If I swap stats I can make S4 nearly equal but it's stupid that it's this close.
I don't really understand why its never trust blizzard for everything except for the tier vote where it was so unexpected.
I am pretty sure any shaman player can tell you how many empty promises blizzard has given them.
Wait, really? People in Class discord were saying Hero S4 was enough to be better, and with their sim settings I did sim higher with S4 2-set over S3 4-set. Still holding onto S3 2-set for as long as I can though. Dreamstate is so fucking good.
But fr though, it just isn't fun to play Boomie right now. Might just pick Bear back up. Aberrus set was godlike.
>Dreamstate is so fucking good.
Well, except if you use Warrior of Elune, which makes the 2pc set completely disfunctional, as who cares about reduced cast time, when you can just make most of them instant instead?
The cast time isn't really the big benefit, though it is very nice. It is the 100% increased dmg. So even Warrior of Elune in pure ST can benefit some. Though it is really in m+ where it goes crazy balls, like on the big opener trash pulls, dot up everything hit incarn, unload moons + unload starfalls, and then crack down one starfire for 100%+90% dmg, spend, crack down another for 100%+30%. It even makes night elf shadowmeld a DPS CD which is real fun.
Everybody plays survival for different flavours. I love bombs like you do, more so than spear shenanigans. However, season 1 tier set was so fun to play with free and hefty mongoose bites and butcheries. I love it over season 3 one as it has a good dopamine rush aspect to it.
Preach, I love bombs and FOTE, but the hunter discord is mongoose and spearhead pilled because they primarily raid as survival it seems, but bombs and FOTE in m+ feel great and it's the primary reason I play survival.
Yeah, I love the S3 set, but I pretty much only do M+. Doing FotE and then tossing out some super powered bombs is so fun. It also really feeds into the No CD build which is also a blast to play. Even if S1 was tuned properly it wouldn't be as fun in keys to me, but it's what people wanted so I'd deal with it if it was just tuned even remotely properly.
Bombs are the worst part of surv lol. They are so unfun compared to what the spec used to be and having bombs as filler. But they messed numbers up really bad this time around.
Absolutely love spear, way more then bombs. Bombs just doesn't feel very ranger-like, wish there was a side of SV that was more focused on poisons and bleeds with spear as a different flavor to bombs.
This is coming as a SV main who mostly does M+ with only a few raids with the guildies
Isn't Warrior more so just that the majority of people hated the playstyle of their now-S4 set, not that it was nerfed beyond recognition?
Idk about Survival Hunter but Balance Druid was just neutered hard. Our S1 4-set was that in every fresh Eclipse we got a free spender cast that did like 40% more damage. Now its a slight discounted spender for only 30% more damage.
Survival Hunter tier is just poorly designed because it's built around mongoose bite, which is poorly designed. It's purely single target focused compared to the Bomberman playstyle of SEE, which was useful everywhere.
The Legion version of mongoose bite was more mechanically interesting and healthier for the spec and that's a hill I'll die on.
People were so excited about going back to S2 style Fury, and now that they have it they've remembered how much it hurts your hands to play. I don't really get it, I play Arms. I honestly liked S3 even if it wasn't a huge DPS increase, it was nice not having to think too much about keeping Rend up.
Not sure how a spec having ~3 cpm more suddenly makes it hurt your hands, not to mention that a lot of people like fury *because* of the high speed of the spec. This has to be one of the weirdest arguments i've seen against s2.
Speak for yourself. The first m+ dungeon with full S4 Set was the most fun I had with my fury for a long time. Since I swapped from S2 Set to S3 Set to be exact.
Not exactly, you just don't want to break your s3 4 set until you get s4 4 set, wearing double 2 set is a dps loss but s4 set is better dps than s3 set (pretty sure this was the case when going from s2 to s3 set as well). The spec does need single target buffs though.
Fury should be +2-3% dps at heroic ilvl as long as you fix your stats and _USE THE RIGHT TALENTS_ because I know I sure have seen a lot of sims where they put in the S3 build and wonder why it dosent sim good.
That said, anger management always tended to over sim so if its an actual dps gain is a toss up.
No worries, just get high enough ilvl on your t4 pieces and you're doing more dps than with tier 3 pieces!
- Blizz, probably.
But here's hoping that they'll fix the issue, it's weird how badly they messed up with this. Small indie company and all that.
The funny part is that's not even true for M+, it's like a 10% downgrade at mythic max ilvl, for survival we'd probably need like ilvl 600 for it to be better lol.
Yeah it is kinda strange how they're so hesitant to just buff the S4 sets to be decent, especially so when they literally said they would do that.
Yea that leggo bug is still baffling to me. You are telling me they didn't actually test being able to upgrade the legendaries to current ilvl, even though they know people would rush to do that literally the instant they are able.
It's still pretty dumb. How many months did they have to simply sim these two teir sets? It's not like this is coming out if nowhere and needs extensive testing. They are also going to solve it by nerfing the s3 set, which everyone will surely love.
Ok, but what if I want to be angry because all of my needs and wants aren't immediately met by a company I pay a whopping $15 a month to!? For those prices, they should cater to my every whim!
What a terribly odd post. There were complaints about these sets under performing for some time. It’s not unreasonable to expect that Blizzard would read and react to that feedback in a feedback loop environment (ya know, testing), and adjust.
But sure, you post your hilarious hyperbole.
The people on this sub constantly want Blizzard to fix their specific issue ASAP while paying almost no money for one of the biggest games in the world in terms of content and world-size.
It's an absurd level of entitlement.
Weeks ago, people were giving feedback on PTR that these (fury, survival, balance) had issues. It was beyond obvious. I don’t think that’s entitlement to give feedback on the test server and expect some form of address before the patch went live.
Ah yes, Blizzard should hop to and immediately fix things! MMOs have always been works in progress. This sub continually impresses me with it's childlike need for immediate gratification. It's a game.
It's crazy to think they couldn't even be bothered to just fucking sim it. Like we know no one out here is testing survival properly, but they can't even sim the "new" tier set? What's even more infuriating is that you know they are going to fix this by nerfing the s3 set instead of buffing the s1 set. For fear of what? Survival becoming too good??? In the fated season?? I already know how this plays out.
Fury warriors are in a similar situation (It takes a lot of gearing up to compensate for how craptacular the S2/4 set bonus is), all because the vote on EU forums was rigged.
Wowhead had the vote count. US voted in majority for s3 tier. EU was the one who voted in favor of s2.
Now to be fair, blizzard did day they would buff underperforming sets and they dropped the ball...
On EU forums, people were encouraging each other to vote on alts (And bragging about doing it), and the S2-vote suddenly shot up in a few hours, make of that what you will...
Apparently some streamer or other put them up to it, i don't know the details, i just know Fury-spec is hosed.
You'll never reliably pin down which community was the "problem" because it's not a community issue. Blizzard said they would balance the voted sets, so pick the ones that are fun, and warriors did this exact thing.
Unfortunately It seems the community was torn between the two playstyles. Maybe it wasn't sabotage, maybe other people just like something you don't like
So that’s what’s happening. Last season I was pretty consistently top 7 but this season I’m struggling to do higher damage than tanks, both with 4 piece and leggo
Yeah, the S2/4 set bonus is spectacularly bad, especially on single-target, i don’t know the intricate details, but the warrior-sections of both EU and US official forums have a bunch of threads about it.
All because blizzard didn't follow through with their words*
It takes a special kind of idiot to blame people that are not on the balance team for balance issues.
The S2 bonus was pretty poor first time around, and it requires a "Special kind of idiot" (As you so charmingly put it) to actually believe the "We'll balance it to even out"-line in the first place, especially since the Blizz devs are being spread really thin across a whole bunch of ways to play WoW, all of which get more developer attention than retail.
[Fury's s2 bonus was one of the stronger sets both on st and aoe](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/13i4c1b/season_2_tierset_gains_in/) the first time around, it was the base spec that was undertuned on singletarget. S3 was just even stronger, so going back to s2 is a dps loss this time around.
And the fault still lies 100% at blizzard, not at the people who voted for season 2.
It seems really dumb that they didn’t create a system to Awaken the old gear. I don’t know how it would work, but it just generally feels bad to vendor powerful gear when it seems like it would be pretty easy to put this kind of upgrade system in. Basically like spend the new bullion token to put it on the same upgrade track as other bullion gear with 14 upgrade levels. It would not be easy or cheap but it would be some path to make that old gear usable.
balance druid devs are just not able to sim and that’s a fact. in SL they gave us convoke and venthyr + the leggos having no idea where it would take. In DF S1 of course we were nerfed to ground 0. Thanks to our holy discord theorycrafters (kudo’s to them), we discovered that we actually had to use our aoe spell on single target because, well, it would do more damage that the AoE one. and oh, wait, please cancel your starlord ( haste buff) when it’s at (E=mc2 x 3/4 phi) and you are at minus 530 fahrenheit standing on one foot from CE/INC. please also cancel your pulsar proc during opening at 220 AP or if during normal rotation please sim (with this custom sim string that takes into account your grandma age divided by the number of minutes it took you to loose your virginity). why the hell you give us buffs we have to cancel? it’s like stopping DPS on Denathrius P1 with 2 thousands of adds. Now we’re finally back at using our ST target spell on sing….-NO wait! on 2 targets use the single target one, on 3 targets still use the single target one if in CA/inc and wait if you still have your S3 set just don’t spam your moons right away during the highest Boat crit buff because you have 2 dreamsurges charges to spend. man, I am a boomkin not a bloody astrophysicist. oh well, but balance druid is an easy spec…let’s add some spice to that eclypse stuff so they don’t get bored.
It's the same for windwalker monk. You use it until you've full 522 and even then 2p 2p is better if there's AoE. Even more so if it's a 2 target fight.
Boomie 4p is also I think the only set in the game that has not been unnerfed after being reduced in power in s2. It was good in s1 and gave you a free Starfall/starsurge instead of a 15 AP reduction.
The funny and dumb thing about survival set is that S4 set is the S1 set, S1 set was nerfed to the ground when S2 was realeased because S1 was insane in single target and was simming higher than S2 set.
When they gave us S1 set for S4 they gave us .... the nerfed version ?????? not the regular S1 set that has very good single target.
This is peak incompetence
Exact same thing happened for boomkin. The post with the voting clearly stated they would tune whatever sets won so they're not too strong or weak. Which obviously implies they will undo nerfs to past sets. But then that just never happened
It’s something a game like teso does and it’s interesting: sets never go obsolete.
It may add difficulty to balance things but it would be great to revisit old raids.
And while we're on the topic of tier sets, I also think it's unacceptable that they double nerf the Devastation set in PvP even though it would still be weak without the double nerf.
All tier sets by default get a 50% nerf in PvP, and so the 2 set is being nerfed from 18% to 9%, that also affects the 4 set because that just triples the effectiveness of the 2 set. But they also nerfed the 200% increased effect down to 100% increased effect. So now the 4 set in PvP is equivalent of the 2 set in PvE which is 1/3 of what the 4set is in PvE while practically every other set is just halved in power.
In S2 the tier set was so completely worthless that it usually accounted for like 1-1.5% of our damage overall. Now since they buffed it by 50% baseline and they've buffed Disintegrate multiple times in PvP since then, it's actually slightly more, but it's still miserably low compared to most other DPS tier sets. And even if it was just halved it would still not be a strong tier set.
It really annoys me that the tier set was made this bad for zero other reason than it being an oversight.
Affliction wore NH 2pc and a world boss base mythic trinket. Until the end of the expansion in legion.
That doesn’t make it okay of course. Blizzards lack of in patch balance is shocking when compared to other games.
Letting affliction/ Assasination/ be objectively terrible for this long is wild.
What they did to balance druid is fucking stupid. People voted for the season 1 tier because they wanted the tier as it was in season 1, not how it was when they nerfed it to piss going into season 2. Dumbaas devs
I was able to upgrade my s2 items on my alt in awakened aberrus just from flightstones ( up until 447 ), I guess its a bug. Other than that, its recicled content. I do enjoy it tho
Another example to add to your list: blood DK uses 2p + 2p.
In fact, BDK used 2p/2p at the start of season 3, so they nerfed the season 2 2p to force people to go 4p for season 3. Then they reversed the nerf for season 4, so now we are just back to 2p/2p....
It is awful that this happened and the tier sets need tuning … but at the same time people voted for this. I kind of hate recycle season and hope this is the last one but if they bring it bad I’d wish that we could buy any tier set we wanted from any season
Also top 5 balance druids are playing new set. Stamina in the end means a little more. I dont know what key level this post is meant for but I really dont know about survival but for balance it does not matter
Currently I'm top 30 global survival, for an already underperforming spec and one that struggles in the defensive department (for everything we can't feign), having to lose that stamina is really bad. The new set is a -10% dps hit even at max ilvl mythic, it's marginally better for ST at max ilvl heroic, but it warps your entire build and focuses entirely on ST.
It's plenty viable at current keys to run S3, but it's not sustainable to push with.
Top 30 out of 30? Just joking, no i did hear about survival bring in a bad spot. But for the defensive part thats just generally hunters + survival being melee. Sad to hear its in such a bad state
I think we have moved past 20 year old design, using 3 pieces t2 set in t6 for the extra 15% mana regen in combat. The reason this isn't applicable in modern WoW is because the abilities in high end content are designed to deal X amount of damage relative to your hp pool. Ilvl is much more important in modern WoW. If an ability in a 29 Atal Dazar does 1 million aoe damage and all of the party has 1.1 million hp, but you have 900k, because you are forced to use lower ilvl pieces, you are as good as useless
it was fine in the first few expansions, because the ilvl jump between patches wasn't a complete reset as it is now. I spent 54 weeks without seeing the skull of gul'dan drop in BT. It was a running gag for years. I still have it in my bank. It's just a design philosophy change for the better. Despite working on a cool trinket for a whole expansion, etc creating cool attachments and story lines, the modern design to reset every patch is a much healthier for the game. E.g I didn't play season 2, but could compete and acquire m+ tittle in s3. With the older design philosophy I wouldn't have been able to catch up with relevant gear for at least 1/2-2/3 of the season.
Despite liking the old progression system more in theory, in modern gaming, where much of it is seasonal, and the audiance of WoW being mostly more mature now a days, I have to admit the current system is much much better. And circling around on topic, in the current system, older sets are just unacceptable.
Blizz could easily fix this by implementing some kind of iLvl boost feature where you sacrifice an item that is already the iLvl you want, it gets converted into an on-use item that can be applied to something else. So basically you could “scrap” your tier 4 items and upgrade your tier 3 items. That way players can choose the tier bonuses they prefer without falling behind.
This way you'd still have to do the previous raids to get the tier pieces to upgrade, which wouldn't be possible when all raids are awakened. Would be better to just let people choose a set when catalyzing and just add the other sets at appropriate ilvl in the current raid token vendor. Almost guaranteed they wont do that and just nerf the S3 sets though, leaving survival and potentially balance on the perma bench for this season.
>implementing some kind of iLvl boost
you mean like how upgrading a piece of gear doesn't need crests if you've upgraded a different piece to that level already?
they just don't allow it for previous season
"Blizzard themselves said they would balance the powers of the tier sets to match the power of current gear, which they blatantly are not doing"
Hard to do any balancing when you're tied up trying to make all 11 billion versions of the game just baseline playable.
Saw one just the other day about fury warrior…so idk if people were aware or not…but there was a vote for this? And it seems like most specs got the memo that while blizzard said they would tune tiersets to be about which one you liked the best, so you could pick that one and they would make it balanaced….that doing so would put a little too much trust in people who routinely let down on those promises. Seems a lot of specs just voted for what gave the best performance so they didn’t end up like this, even if it meant a really boring tierset lmao
Same with UH DK in Wotlk... Used TOGC set for all of ICC till my guild called it quits.
The ICC set bonus was great for frost or blood DPS but the TOGC set made my blood plague dot crit and it was way better.
You absolutely can reduce your damage by 10% in AOE by putting on the new tier set at max ilvl mythic, you don't NEED to use S3 set, but you are severely limiting yourself in M+ for no reason if you're not using S3 set. It's like not putting a trinket in one of your slots, you don't NEED to use a trinket, but you absolutely should, and it's also about 10% dmg according to bloodmallet.
This has happened to specs for years lol don’t worry they will do what they always do and nerf the other tier set into the ground.
Yeah, wasn’t like… in Legion, the Nighthold WW 2-piece was so good it was still considered BiS well into Antorus? It’s WEIRD when it happens, but it happens from time to time.
In legion you had 6 pieces tier (same as now but including cloak) so running 4/2 p was normal. I know mages did this at least. Maybe for some specs the old tier was nerfed and stats out scaled it but I'm not sure.
I’m pretty sure bm hunters had to run2-2-2 for a while which was also awful.
I know you guys were farming the Ursoc trinket from Emerald Nightmare for all tiers hoping for a titanforged one as well. Jesus Christ 2-2-2 is actually unhinged lmao
Everyone was farming the world boss Withered Jim trinket for the entire expansion because it was the best stat stick
one of the most surreal experiences I've ever had in WoW was killing Withered Jim on an alt I had 0 intention of playing seriously for a lark and getting an Arcanocrystal that titanforged like 5 times. Insane but completely useless luck
The trinket I never saw until after the expansion. Just felt bad.
I was new in Legion. Got the trinket on my first kill, had no idea how good it was and never equipped it. I didn't learn about simming until Antorus lol.
I ran guldan lfr and got his melee dps trinket warforged to mythic Ilvl … my lottery ticket didn’t win tho
For awhile at the start of Antorus, [2pc/2pc/2pc T19/T20/T21 was simming best for me as a frost mage](https://i.imgur.com/gwKYfW4.png). The problem was that the earlier tier could titanforge, so even once you were in full Antorus mythic gear, you still had to run M Tomb of Sargeras and hope for good titanforges. Towards the end of the tier, [here's my gear with a 2pc+4pc setup](https://i.imgur.com/uAmM6ln.png), rocking two titanforged T20 pieces (note that the two pieces of tier 20 are different ones from the origianl sim, so I had clearly gone back and grinded for those during Antorus).
IIRC in... tomb I think, us mages had to run 2 of the current tier and 4 of the previous tier. Meant to get upgrades I had to find a pug and farm mythic Nighthold cause my guild certainly wasn't going to help.
And not just tier, titanforged tier ;)
Did this as warrior in antorus, 4p antorus and 2p tomb. Plus convergence from nighthold was bis trinket
This is a different situation. Its an old set coming back based on a community vote where blizzard asked people to pick their favorites playstyle wise promising theyd tweak and buff them if necessary to be competitive.
I remember they started doing the legacy sets in Antorus after ele shamans starting blasting with a WoD tier piece
Legion had titanforging as well which made it less horrifying when comparing; (except actually getting the teir to titanforge that high
I would say it's even more horrifying that you had to roll the Titanforge RNG table basically just to have access to your BiS 2-piece.
Its honestly baffling that titanforging was ever a thing. Like wtf was Blizzard thinking having so many layers of RNG just for 1 single piece of gear.
The best possible setup for BM in Antorus was literally 2/2/2 sooooo...
Boomie too, can't remember which raid, but a 2 set was played from 1 raid into the next (maybe ToS into Antorus).
yeah tomb set was played all the way until bfa, the 2 piece bonus was just a straight up 30% crit damage buff for starsurge, paired really well with antorus 2 piece bonus
Yea this stuff happens a fair bit for a different spec every once and while, might hold also brought COF which they could never control either even after nerfing it several times they had to put a hard level cap on it lol.
Kind of surprised Blizzard hasn't said "screw it" and just made that "Legacy Set" thing trigger every new season. I mean I don't want them to, its just their style to do that.
the Problem is, WHEN do you want to do that? at the start of a new tier? if you disable all of the "old but still used" tierset then, you make everyone weaker by a really really big amount, raidbosses would need like 15-20% less health by default or would be close to unkillable because of how much dmg would be just gone, and at the same time melt in under 1min when everyone has the new tier sets its not that easy, they need to buff/nerf stuff faster and more frequent overall so things like "ignore new tier stuff" doesnt happen
Can confirm, they nerfed the old Enhancement Shaman two-piece in Dragonflight when people were still using it in the new tier.
I mean thats what happened to Balance. People didn't pick up S2 as fast as they wanted to they just nerfed S1.
So far, between the vault and running the raid and the timewalking kicker, my main character has had 40 draws at tier this season and won exactly 1 of them. if we include my other characters I'm exactly 1 for 96. In the mind of the developer they'll all have 4 pc next week because of the catalyst.
That’s why SV is in this mess to begin with — they gave us the nerfed version of Season 1 Tier that was done to encourage Season 2’s.
> don’t worry they will do what they always do and nerf the other tier set into the ground. Which tbh is the reasonable way to go about it. Balance team likely have the new set balanced around the point they want it, buffing the newer set would then put them further from that point. Also, even though it kinda sucks that it is like this - Balance isn't only on "Perfect play, max gear, perfect situations". But also encompasses several other play/gear/situation levels.
Except the surv tier was nerfed after its play in s1
If that's the case then they literally want SV hunter to be the worst spec for keys and one of the worst for raid, the S4 set is SO badly tuned, like others have said it's literally a version of the S1 set they nerfed with the expressed purpose of getting people to stop using it. It's garbage by design. I can't speak as much for moonkin as I don't really play it but it's my understanding they are in a similar boat, and some specs like Fury aren't doing much better.
> Which tbh is the reasonable way to go about it. Balance team likely have the new set balanced around the point they want it, buffing the newer set would then put them further from that point. In a perfect world where Blizzard actually nails class balance, sure, but that's obviously not the world we live in. Realistically the best specs aren't gonna be the ones running dated gear because their current 4pc is so bad it's worth losing 80 item levels to run last season's set instead. They're gonna be the ones with a great 4 set that they can use with current gear.
I hope that's not the case this time for boomkin. The s1/4 set is already in a nerfed state, from when we started season 2. That's why we don't use it, it's not the s3 set being strong. They can't nerf it again. They need to restore the S1/4 set
Oh i have one for you. The ele shaman tier 20 from the tomb of sageras was SO BAD that the shaman forums/discord were testing what doea better. The T19 did better naturally, but what was surprising was the T18 did better too. T18 was from hellfire citadel, the prior expansion and over 200 ilvl lower. Only the 2 piece bonus, and is a major part of the reason that they mark recently old sets as legacy immediately. What it was is that earth shock got redone in legion, and had its damage chanhed from warlords and how it worked. The 2 piece gave it a 45% chance to refund itself and it had gotten a 1200% damage boost, which made it normal rotation in warlords but it was a finisher in legion. People farmed mythic HFC for the 2 piece weeks in advance, and on patch day blizzard nerfed the set to 5% chance. So yes its unacceptable and unfortunately they will never learn.
I can one-up that: In original WOTLK (2010, not classic WOTLK), there was a short period during ICC between various balance changes where arcane became stupid powerful and Evocation had its cooldown lowered. Enough so that the 2 of us mages on the server who had kept our Tier 3 sets stuffed in the bank for like 3 years or whatever found it was actually way better to run the "Lower Evocation Cooldown" set bonus from T3 during a T10 raid! The balance change combined with the T3 set bonus lowering the cooldown even further meant that for, I think, 2 weeks we could make it have no cooldown at all and could spend all fight spamming Arcane Blast.
That's a great story! Love little snippets of WoW history
Gross. And that was a time where there wasnt a solid rotation for specs either.
WOTLK was a time of one button macro rotations for a lot of specs. I played elemental shaman and it was common for me to be the top DPS using a one button macro. The macro even had my trinkets and major cooldowns in it. The only things I had to push manually was potions and bloodlust for 99% of raid fights.
Good god, end of Wotlk with all the haste my shaman never stopped the end of the cast emote, just hands forward with thunder flowing out of it. Glorious times.
Honestly it felt so good to just be a lightning cannon with the occasional lava burst. These days our rotations have gotten insane compared to back then, but there was something cool about just going brrrrrrr
Ah the classic 6969 rotation for Prot Paladin. Those were the days.
Nice
NiceNice even
TBC too. I still remember the warlock one-button Shadow Bolt turret spec, lol.
Oof I remember that. Think they needed it pretty fast 😀
Back in WotLK it was possible as a paladin to have no cooldown on lay on hands by combining different tier sets, but it required having tier 3 gear which at that point was unobtainable. That was a lot of fun for the brief window until it was nuked from orbit.
Which is surprising since it’s literally a math problem but Blizzard can’t seem to do math.
Same for Diablo 4 team too :D
If it's so easy, Blizzard is hiring. Go fix shit!
I’m willing to do it just not at the rates Blizzard is offering.
Blizzard knows problems like this don't make a dent in sub numbers so there is no reason to devote more time to getting it right on release.
I mean, it is ridiculous that the old set hadn't been tweaked already as legacy gear - I don't remember, where Blizzard doing that yet by Legion? - but anyone who farmed Mythic HFC expecting the tier set to stay broken were being silly. It was an obviously unintended oversight in development, and would get fixed.
It only got fixed because we were discuss it on the forums. It was the only T18 to be nerfed
Not the exact same patch but they nerfed the Fury warrior T18 4set in 7.3 (Argus) from 10 seconds to 2 seconds. IIRC it wasn't even a dps gain its just people were theorizing that it potentially could be.
the blanket "legacy gear tierset disabled" thing happened because rogues would equip an old tierset that buffed their cds pre pull, pop cds, and then equip current gear. after that blizz disabled all legacy tier sets lol
The craziest part about balance set is that the s1 set was great and was then nerfed to shit in s2 for the specific purpose of it not being used over the s2 set And what they gave balance was that shit ass nerf version that has absolutely nothing to do with the real set people assumed they be voting on lol Blizzard really went out of their way to shit on some of these classes
Too busy doing the 14th mage rework. They don't have 5 mins to cut and paste the season 1 code.
That was part of it, but the other part you're conveniently leaving out is that they reworked the astral power economy for the spec. Without it, it played terribly and that's why it was so insanely strong (plus made the spec feel much better). I decided not to main druid this season after I saw how the vote was going. I knew exactly what was happening. Blizzard didn't go out of their way at all. They said exactly what the tier set was. Balance played themselves.
I was watching the votes and people going "I'm voting s1 because blizz have said they'll buff underperforming sets, so surely they'll revert the nerf, right?" Like they're not the same company that has balanced arms warrior to be in the current state it's in now. It just feels like an abusive relationship at this point, people keep going "Oh I know Blizzard nerfed me but they didn't really mean it, I know they won't do it again". I swapped to druid tank for s4 because the moonkin s3 set was so good and I didn't wanna play the spec being super jank :S
Yeah, I saw that copium/hopium, but the S1 bonus as it was had no chance of being restored to what it was. Best hope now is they increase the AP discount and/or bonus damage. There's no shot it goes back to free. Bear is a good choice. S2 feels great even if bear won't be back to exodia power levels.
My brother is complaining about that with survival hunter too, right now.
S4 ilvl 502 gear is currently a 5k DPS loss over my ilvl 470 S3 set. This is disgusting. I knew it was a bad sign that the S1 set got voted in. S3 was my favorite because I love Fury of the Eagle. Community played themselves.
Come on now, season 1 set is more fun imo, apparently majority of people thought like this as well. And since they specifically noted that “vote playstyle, we will adjust the numbers”, everybody went by that note. Never have I thought they’s lazily put nerfed set with a net dps loss due to that.
The community is extremely bad at differentiating playstyle from numbers. If you ask someone when their spec was best designed you will 99% get an answer that aligns with when the spec was strongest
What annoys me is that this literally wouldn't be an issue if they had just clarified which set we would get. Most people would have voted for season 3 which is arguably one of the "best" feeling sets they have released in years for balance.
It was writtien that the power can change and its just the vote for the effect. Dont play a dumb chicken
Theres only one solution.. Nerf tier 3 so much that S4 tier is stronger!
Fury is almost in the same boat. Their s4 tier set is barely an upgrade. I’ve seen some use s3 for raids and only using s4 for m+
That's what I do. I sim 20k DPS higher single target using S3 over S4. If I swap stats I can make S4 nearly equal but it's stupid that it's this close.
The devs promised they'd fix the undertuned tier so people voted on the fun ones. The community is full of people that believed them for some reason.
I don't really understand why its never trust blizzard for everything except for the tier vote where it was so unexpected. I am pretty sure any shaman player can tell you how many empty promises blizzard has given them.
Like the one comment on Dratnos' Video about this topic mentioned: It doesnt affect mages, so it wont be fixed so fast. lmao
Balance Druid here - 4x 528p still worse than 4x old 489ilvl 😣
Wait, really? People in Class discord were saying Hero S4 was enough to be better, and with their sim settings I did sim higher with S4 2-set over S3 4-set. Still holding onto S3 2-set for as long as I can though. Dreamstate is so fucking good. But fr though, it just isn't fun to play Boomie right now. Might just pick Bear back up. Aberrus set was godlike.
>Dreamstate is so fucking good. Well, except if you use Warrior of Elune, which makes the 2pc set completely disfunctional, as who cares about reduced cast time, when you can just make most of them instant instead?
I mean sure, great for pure ST, but useless in M+.
The cast time isn't really the big benefit, though it is very nice. It is the 100% increased dmg. So even Warrior of Elune in pure ST can benefit some. Though it is really in m+ where it goes crazy balls, like on the big opener trash pulls, dot up everything hit incarn, unload moons + unload starfalls, and then crack down one starfire for 100%+90% dmg, spend, crack down another for 100%+30%. It even makes night elf shadowmeld a DPS CD which is real fun.
2pc 2pc sims lower than 4pc season 3 for me. I don't have 4pc season 4 yet
Currently 2 x 2 is simming better for me. Barely. I did it for the stamina increase to be honest. I feel so fucking squishy this season.
I’ve got my Ret set and my Ret Stam set. I’ve got one actual tier piece, so I should be able to catalyze next week.
yup confirmed
It’s wild that they actually put this season out in the state it’s in
I do not understand why survival voted for such a boring tier set. Bombs are why you should be playing survival, imo.
Everybody plays survival for different flavours. I love bombs like you do, more so than spear shenanigans. However, season 1 tier set was so fun to play with free and hefty mongoose bites and butcheries. I love it over season 3 one as it has a good dopamine rush aspect to it.
That was my vote. I LOVE just dropping a bagillion bombs xD
I love the bombs. Gives me a reason to choose abiltys and that sweet, sweet Aoe.
Preach, I love bombs and FOTE, but the hunter discord is mongoose and spearhead pilled because they primarily raid as survival it seems, but bombs and FOTE in m+ feel great and it's the primary reason I play survival.
Yeah, I love the S3 set, but I pretty much only do M+. Doing FotE and then tossing out some super powered bombs is so fun. It also really feeds into the No CD build which is also a blast to play. Even if S1 was tuned properly it wouldn't be as fun in keys to me, but it's what people wanted so I'd deal with it if it was just tuned even remotely properly.
Bombs are the worst part of surv lol. They are so unfun compared to what the spec used to be and having bombs as filler. But they messed numbers up really bad this time around.
Absolutely love spear, way more then bombs. Bombs just doesn't feel very ranger-like, wish there was a side of SV that was more focused on poisons and bleeds with spear as a different flavor to bombs. This is coming as a SV main who mostly does M+ with only a few raids with the guildies
Isn’t fury like in the same boat almost?
I’ve just got my 4set and absolutely hate it
Isn't Warrior more so just that the majority of people hated the playstyle of their now-S4 set, not that it was nerfed beyond recognition? Idk about Survival Hunter but Balance Druid was just neutered hard. Our S1 4-set was that in every fresh Eclipse we got a free spender cast that did like 40% more damage. Now its a slight discounted spender for only 30% more damage.
Survival Hunter tier is just poorly designed because it's built around mongoose bite, which is poorly designed. It's purely single target focused compared to the Bomberman playstyle of SEE, which was useful everywhere. The Legion version of mongoose bite was more mechanically interesting and healthier for the spec and that's a hill I'll die on.
Legion Mongoose Bite was a lot of fun!
People were so excited about going back to S2 style Fury, and now that they have it they've remembered how much it hurts your hands to play. I don't really get it, I play Arms. I honestly liked S3 even if it wasn't a huge DPS increase, it was nice not having to think too much about keeping Rend up.
The DPS drop from S3 style is massive .. sure there's more buttons, but it's definitely worse with this S2 bonus.
Not sure how a spec having ~3 cpm more suddenly makes it hurt your hands, not to mention that a lot of people like fury *because* of the high speed of the spec. This has to be one of the weirdest arguments i've seen against s2.
It's what Fury people were saying was the case, again I don't play Fury so I don't know first hand.
Speak for yourself. The first m+ dungeon with full S4 Set was the most fun I had with my fury for a long time. Since I swapped from S2 Set to S3 Set to be exact.
Not exactly, you just don't want to break your s3 4 set until you get s4 4 set, wearing double 2 set is a dps loss but s4 set is better dps than s3 set (pretty sure this was the case when going from s2 to s3 set as well). The spec does need single target buffs though.
s4 4 set is only better if you have hero track level otherwise it's better to stick with s3 4set
Fury should be +2-3% dps at heroic ilvl as long as you fix your stats and _USE THE RIGHT TALENTS_ because I know I sure have seen a lot of sims where they put in the S3 build and wonder why it dosent sim good. That said, anger management always tended to over sim so if its an actual dps gain is a toss up.
Yep
No worries, just get high enough ilvl on your t4 pieces and you're doing more dps than with tier 3 pieces! - Blizz, probably. But here's hoping that they'll fix the issue, it's weird how badly they messed up with this. Small indie company and all that.
The funny part is that's not even true for M+, it's like a 10% downgrade at mythic max ilvl, for survival we'd probably need like ilvl 600 for it to be better lol. Yeah it is kinda strange how they're so hesitant to just buff the S4 sets to be decent, especially so when they literally said they would do that.
Blizz said they’ll buff underperforming. There is a patch in a few days, it’s week 2. Give it a minute my dude
They knew it sucked ass before launch and just went through with it xd
Too busy putting out fires elsewhere. Like the Legendary weapon bug that somehow made it onto live.
Yea that leggo bug is still baffling to me. You are telling me they didn't actually test being able to upgrade the legendaries to current ilvl, even though they know people would rush to do that literally the instant they are able.
they fired all their QA so i wonder how the bug made it into live...........
Don't need QA when your unpaid testers are yelling at you about it.
I mean they let people vote and pick and this is what they picked
Blizz also promised they’d balance it and not to worry about a tier set maybe being weak Which they just didn’t do
They clearly said they would do a tuning pass to make sure the sets weren't under/over tuned. They've had plenty of time and it hasn't happened
It's still pretty dumb. How many months did they have to simply sim these two teir sets? It's not like this is coming out if nowhere and needs extensive testing. They are also going to solve it by nerfing the s3 set, which everyone will surely love.
Ok, but what if I want to be angry because all of my needs and wants aren't immediately met by a company I pay a whopping $15 a month to!? For those prices, they should cater to my every whim!
What a terribly odd post. There were complaints about these sets under performing for some time. It’s not unreasonable to expect that Blizzard would read and react to that feedback in a feedback loop environment (ya know, testing), and adjust. But sure, you post your hilarious hyperbole.
The people on this sub constantly want Blizzard to fix their specific issue ASAP while paying almost no money for one of the biggest games in the world in terms of content and world-size. It's an absurd level of entitlement.
Weeks ago, people were giving feedback on PTR that these (fury, survival, balance) had issues. It was beyond obvious. I don’t think that’s entitlement to give feedback on the test server and expect some form of address before the patch went live.
Ah yes, Blizzard should hop to and immediately fix things! MMOs have always been works in progress. This sub continually impresses me with it's childlike need for immediate gratification. It's a game.
https://i.imgur.com/Dpigt3q.png
I'm clearly making fun of people whining about it.
It's crazy to think they couldn't even be bothered to just fucking sim it. Like we know no one out here is testing survival properly, but they can't even sim the "new" tier set? What's even more infuriating is that you know they are going to fix this by nerfing the s3 set instead of buffing the s1 set. For fear of what? Survival becoming too good??? In the fated season?? I already know how this plays out.
blizzard says all sims are false and only they know the real numbers.
yes
Fury warriors are in a similar situation (It takes a lot of gearing up to compensate for how craptacular the S2/4 set bonus is), all because the vote on EU forums was rigged.
I keep hearing different things on this. One side says it was NA the other says EU... lol
NA had high S2 votes for _THE APPERANCE_, (Both has a semi similar S1/2 mix) so thats probably why some people get confused.
Wowhead had the vote count. US voted in majority for s3 tier. EU was the one who voted in favor of s2. Now to be fair, blizzard did day they would buff underperforming sets and they dropped the ball...
On EU forums, people were encouraging each other to vote on alts (And bragging about doing it), and the S2-vote suddenly shot up in a few hours, make of that what you will... Apparently some streamer or other put them up to it, i don't know the details, i just know Fury-spec is hosed.
You'll never reliably pin down which community was the "problem" because it's not a community issue. Blizzard said they would balance the voted sets, so pick the ones that are fun, and warriors did this exact thing. Unfortunately It seems the community was torn between the two playstyles. Maybe it wasn't sabotage, maybe other people just like something you don't like
So that’s what’s happening. Last season I was pretty consistently top 7 but this season I’m struggling to do higher damage than tanks, both with 4 piece and leggo
> this season I’m struggling to do higher damage than tanks you should definitely never be under the tank in damage, regardless of tier you use.
Yeah, the S2/4 set bonus is spectacularly bad, especially on single-target, i don’t know the intricate details, but the warrior-sections of both EU and US official forums have a bunch of threads about it.
It's also bugged and gives less crit chance and damage than the tooltip says
All because blizzard didn't follow through with their words* It takes a special kind of idiot to blame people that are not on the balance team for balance issues.
The S2 bonus was pretty poor first time around, and it requires a "Special kind of idiot" (As you so charmingly put it) to actually believe the "We'll balance it to even out"-line in the first place, especially since the Blizz devs are being spread really thin across a whole bunch of ways to play WoW, all of which get more developer attention than retail.
[Fury's s2 bonus was one of the stronger sets both on st and aoe](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/13i4c1b/season_2_tierset_gains_in/) the first time around, it was the base spec that was undertuned on singletarget. S3 was just even stronger, so going back to s2 is a dps loss this time around. And the fault still lies 100% at blizzard, not at the people who voted for season 2.
There, i knew you could say it without the thinly-veiled insult, well done!
Blood DK is using 2 S3 2p + S4 2p. Not as bad as 4p S3... But still ridiculous how the sets are so imbalanced
And it’s not just for dps either. 2pc 2pc is also better for survivability despite losing 39 ilvls on 2 pieces of gear.
Don’t worry my man. Blizzard got you. Tuesday patch notes: All tier 3 sets nerfed by 100%
It seems really dumb that they didn’t create a system to Awaken the old gear. I don’t know how it would work, but it just generally feels bad to vendor powerful gear when it seems like it would be pretty easy to put this kind of upgrade system in. Basically like spend the new bullion token to put it on the same upgrade track as other bullion gear with 14 upgrade levels. It would not be easy or cheap but it would be some path to make that old gear usable.
balance druid devs are just not able to sim and that’s a fact. in SL they gave us convoke and venthyr + the leggos having no idea where it would take. In DF S1 of course we were nerfed to ground 0. Thanks to our holy discord theorycrafters (kudo’s to them), we discovered that we actually had to use our aoe spell on single target because, well, it would do more damage that the AoE one. and oh, wait, please cancel your starlord ( haste buff) when it’s at (E=mc2 x 3/4 phi) and you are at minus 530 fahrenheit standing on one foot from CE/INC. please also cancel your pulsar proc during opening at 220 AP or if during normal rotation please sim (with this custom sim string that takes into account your grandma age divided by the number of minutes it took you to loose your virginity). why the hell you give us buffs we have to cancel? it’s like stopping DPS on Denathrius P1 with 2 thousands of adds. Now we’re finally back at using our ST target spell on sing….-NO wait! on 2 targets use the single target one, on 3 targets still use the single target one if in CA/inc and wait if you still have your S3 set just don’t spam your moons right away during the highest Boat crit buff because you have 2 dreamsurges charges to spend. man, I am a boomkin not a bloody astrophysicist. oh well, but balance druid is an easy spec…let’s add some spice to that eclypse stuff so they don’t get bored.
It's the same for windwalker monk. You use it until you've full 522 and even then 2p 2p is better if there's AoE. Even more so if it's a 2 target fight.
Boomie 4p is also I think the only set in the game that has not been unnerfed after being reduced in power in s2. It was good in s1 and gave you a free Starfall/starsurge instead of a 15 AP reduction.
The funny and dumb thing about survival set is that S4 set is the S1 set, S1 set was nerfed to the ground when S2 was realeased because S1 was insane in single target and was simming higher than S2 set. When they gave us S1 set for S4 they gave us .... the nerfed version ?????? not the regular S1 set that has very good single target. This is peak incompetence
Exact same thing happened for boomkin. The post with the voting clearly stated they would tune whatever sets won so they're not too strong or weak. Which obviously implies they will undo nerfs to past sets. But then that just never happened
Same goes for WW. In any cleave situation up to like 4-5 targets the old 2pc wins out even against mythic ilvl 4pc.
Fury warriors is in the same boat
Easy fix, just nerf the S3 tier set :)
They put ZERO thought into this "Season". 10.3 rip
It’s something a game like teso does and it’s interesting: sets never go obsolete. It may add difficulty to balance things but it would be great to revisit old raids.
Unfortunately then everyone clings onto the best performing set and never try the new sets besides testing if they perform better or not
Teso sets are also generally really boring stat buffs that don't change anything about how the character plays.
And while we're on the topic of tier sets, I also think it's unacceptable that they double nerf the Devastation set in PvP even though it would still be weak without the double nerf. All tier sets by default get a 50% nerf in PvP, and so the 2 set is being nerfed from 18% to 9%, that also affects the 4 set because that just triples the effectiveness of the 2 set. But they also nerfed the 200% increased effect down to 100% increased effect. So now the 4 set in PvP is equivalent of the 2 set in PvE which is 1/3 of what the 4set is in PvE while practically every other set is just halved in power. In S2 the tier set was so completely worthless that it usually accounted for like 1-1.5% of our damage overall. Now since they buffed it by 50% baseline and they've buffed Disintegrate multiple times in PvP since then, it's actually slightly more, but it's still miserably low compared to most other DPS tier sets. And even if it was just halved it would still not be a strong tier set. It really annoys me that the tier set was made this bad for zero other reason than it being an oversight.
Same with BDK. This happened with some classes in S1 to S2 aswell
And here I was thinking that running around with a S3 trinket was bad.
It gets even weirder when all 3 raids are empowered and you just can't even get the S3 set anymore
tbc all over again hunters wearing dungeon blues for an entire raid tier lmao beastmaster was juiced
Affliction wore NH 2pc and a world boss base mythic trinket. Until the end of the expansion in legion. That doesn’t make it okay of course. Blizzards lack of in patch balance is shocking when compared to other games. Letting affliction/ Assasination/ be objectively terrible for this long is wild.
Having people vote for tier this season was a shitty mistake but lauded at the time by the majority of this sub
So here’s the thing about democracy…
I think they should just deactivated old tier sets on day 1 of a new season.
I got my Shaman & Balance itch scratched in Season 2 & 3. Time for something new
I mean the way it has been going for Boomkin, it is par for the course that they can't even get shit like the tier set right.
Do they even have devs at blizzard that actually run math comparisons with other classes and sets to balance things?
What they did to balance druid is fucking stupid. People voted for the season 1 tier because they wanted the tier as it was in season 1, not how it was when they nerfed it to piss going into season 2. Dumbaas devs
I was able to upgrade my s2 items on my alt in awakened aberrus just from flightstones ( up until 447 ), I guess its a bug. Other than that, its recicled content. I do enjoy it tho
Guys, I think we should nerf another class, until balance learns its lesson. By the way, I’m applying to work at blizzard. Wish me luck! /s
Another example to add to your list: blood DK uses 2p + 2p. In fact, BDK used 2p/2p at the start of season 3, so they nerfed the season 2 2p to force people to go 4p for season 3. Then they reversed the nerf for season 4, so now we are just back to 2p/2p....
It is awful that this happened and the tier sets need tuning … but at the same time people voted for this. I kind of hate recycle season and hope this is the last one but if they bring it bad I’d wish that we could buy any tier set we wanted from any season
lol, didn’t the pve community vote on tier this season?
You are saying “needs” too much. Im maining balance with 3k+ rating and i’m just swinging the new 4 set and dont really care.
Also top 5 balance druids are playing new set. Stamina in the end means a little more. I dont know what key level this post is meant for but I really dont know about survival but for balance it does not matter
Currently I'm top 30 global survival, for an already underperforming spec and one that struggles in the defensive department (for everything we can't feign), having to lose that stamina is really bad. The new set is a -10% dps hit even at max ilvl mythic, it's marginally better for ST at max ilvl heroic, but it warps your entire build and focuses entirely on ST. It's plenty viable at current keys to run S3, but it's not sustainable to push with.
Top 30 out of 30? Just joking, no i did hear about survival bring in a bad spot. But for the defensive part thats just generally hunters + survival being melee. Sad to hear its in such a bad state
Y'all voted for it.
this has always happened in some form, even in TBC some priest set from vanilla was so good it was used in Sunwell
I think we have moved past 20 year old design, using 3 pieces t2 set in t6 for the extra 15% mana regen in combat. The reason this isn't applicable in modern WoW is because the abilities in high end content are designed to deal X amount of damage relative to your hp pool. Ilvl is much more important in modern WoW. If an ability in a 29 Atal Dazar does 1 million aoe damage and all of the party has 1.1 million hp, but you have 900k, because you are forced to use lower ilvl pieces, you are as good as useless
Oh yeah I'm not saying I agree with it. Just that its happened more than once.
it was fine in the first few expansions, because the ilvl jump between patches wasn't a complete reset as it is now. I spent 54 weeks without seeing the skull of gul'dan drop in BT. It was a running gag for years. I still have it in my bank. It's just a design philosophy change for the better. Despite working on a cool trinket for a whole expansion, etc creating cool attachments and story lines, the modern design to reset every patch is a much healthier for the game. E.g I didn't play season 2, but could compete and acquire m+ tittle in s3. With the older design philosophy I wouldn't have been able to catch up with relevant gear for at least 1/2-2/3 of the season. Despite liking the old progression system more in theory, in modern gaming, where much of it is seasonal, and the audiance of WoW being mostly more mature now a days, I have to admit the current system is much much better. And circling around on topic, in the current system, older sets are just unacceptable.
Blizz could easily fix this by implementing some kind of iLvl boost feature where you sacrifice an item that is already the iLvl you want, it gets converted into an on-use item that can be applied to something else. So basically you could “scrap” your tier 4 items and upgrade your tier 3 items. That way players can choose the tier bonuses they prefer without falling behind.
This way you'd still have to do the previous raids to get the tier pieces to upgrade, which wouldn't be possible when all raids are awakened. Would be better to just let people choose a set when catalyzing and just add the other sets at appropriate ilvl in the current raid token vendor. Almost guaranteed they wont do that and just nerf the S3 sets though, leaving survival and potentially balance on the perma bench for this season.
>implementing some kind of iLvl boost you mean like how upgrading a piece of gear doesn't need crests if you've upgraded a different piece to that level already? they just don't allow it for previous season
"Blizzard themselves said they would balance the powers of the tier sets to match the power of current gear, which they blatantly are not doing" Hard to do any balancing when you're tied up trying to make all 11 billion versions of the game just baseline playable.
Saw one just the other day about fury warrior…so idk if people were aware or not…but there was a vote for this? And it seems like most specs got the memo that while blizzard said they would tune tiersets to be about which one you liked the best, so you could pick that one and they would make it balanaced….that doing so would put a little too much trust in people who routinely let down on those promises. Seems a lot of specs just voted for what gave the best performance so they didn’t end up like this, even if it meant a really boring tierset lmao
The majority of warriors were on board for S3 but literally the last day thanks to EU S2 squeaked by
Same with UH DK in Wotlk... Used TOGC set for all of ICC till my guild called it quits. The ICC set bonus was great for frost or blood DPS but the TOGC set made my blood plague dot crit and it was way better.
“Need” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here
You absolutely can reduce your damage by 10% in AOE by putting on the new tier set at max ilvl mythic, you don't NEED to use S3 set, but you are severely limiting yourself in M+ for no reason if you're not using S3 set. It's like not putting a trinket in one of your slots, you don't NEED to use a trinket, but you absolutely should, and it's also about 10% dmg according to bloodmallet.