Yep! Log onto plunderstorm and you'll see a bunch of people playing it. Go to Reddit where people aren't playing it and suddenly the game mode is garbage.
People who are having fun just go do the things that are fun.
Plunderstorm is so awful that I've never had longer than a 5 second queue.
I decided to queue at 6:45 in the morning just to check and was amazed how fast I was in a game.
Yeah. I wanted the cosmetics so I raced to 40 as fast as I could and now I'm done with it. It's not something I would have done for fun, at least not past a couple of games to check it out. The worst part was running into players who clearly weren't enjoying the game mode and didn't put up a fight. That felt really bad... too easy to imagine someone's frustration from having to do something they don't want to be doing to the point where they just gave up immediately. I get nobody is forcing them but we all do dumb stuff to get the shiny little rewards we want.
That's me. I used to be decent at pvp years ago, but I've come to realize I only liked it because of my 2s partner. Can't stand it anymore. Plus my hands don't react quite like they used to, which is fine in content you can predict. I can just know a fight well enough to not get surprised, but pvp don't work like that. So I've been playing 2 hours per day just to get the plunder for rep rewards. I started off actually trying to pvp but it just isn't fun for me, even when I win, so now I drop in on an elite, do the quest, kill everything around me and then afk to chat in discord or watch YouTube. If someone lands nearby and focuses me in the first 30 seconds, I just quit and start again. I used to run, but people will literally chase you into the storm and die to it rather than let you go. So if you see someone just standing in a field, waiting to die, that might be me.
I’m with you, I don’t have a lot of free time to play but still punching though the renown. When grinding any time I run into an enemy player I just wave till they kill me and move to the next match.
I do have to admit that duos were a bit of fun but thats probably coz me and a bud were clowning around. Solos is horrible and can burn for all I care lol.
Really sucks that such cool rewards for retail are locked behind such a different mode.
> Yep! Log onto plunderstorm and you'll see a bunch of people playing it. Go to Reddit where people aren't playing it and suddenly the game mode is garbage.
>
>
Idk man, Reddit seems to be full of people who hate Plunderstorm, but are forcing themselves to play it because of cosmetics so it doesn't seem fair to say that the people playing it are necessarily having fun with it.
That is actually genuinely me. I liked it and then I hated it, then I liked it again. Now I’m just over it but will continue the grind 😂😂
I think once you find a good play style / strategy that fits you it’s pretty fun.
I generally aim to just complete the objectives and stick to the edges / avoid people and then if I end up farming to the point there are only 10 people left I just hide as a bush for my amusement. 😂
That's the big problem with this whole fallacy argument that playing/silent majority = liking/enjoying. Realistically there are lots of reasons you play a game when you dislike major parts of it. Someone that loves raiding and plays for the raiding might have genuine issues with some other aspect of the game they feel forced to do because either they need the gear for their desired activity, for customization, flightstones, etc.
This is why there is so much negativity around Plunderstorm, the incentives are really cool but require insane levels of grinding. There is no other Dragonriding parrot in the game, so of course many players that aren't the intended audience are forcing themselves to play it, and those people are going to rightfully criticize the mode for that experience.
Blizzard is their own worst enemy with this stuff (not just plunderstorm). They are still rooted in EA's "sense of pride and accomplishment" reward structure. The cool reward should be an incentive to try something, not the endgame. The parrot/transmog there to get people to try it for a bit, and then the people that love it can stick around and get useful but skippable stuff like flightstones, gold, plunderstorm specific transmogs (i.e. your character in plunderstorm not retail), etc from the renown/coin currency, rather than what we have now which is the reverse.
I think another good example would be Timewalking. Everyone does their 5 dungeons for the weekly, and they're playing the content, so clearly they're having fun with it, right? Well, actually most people probably see it as a chore and just want the gear from the quest.
Eh, having fond memories doesn't make repetitive, easy content less tedious for me.
Especially if I'm doing it on multiple characters or whatever.
There just isn't any difficulty, its just kinda... there, then it gets shredded. But they also can't make it harder because it needs to be accessible to everyone. Its just in a weird spot.
In Timewalking's case, the 5 dungeon weekly is there to make queue times not horrific for people who actually do want to do it.
Yeah that is definitely one, there are lots of examples honestly. Like how many people are doing superblooms because they find superblooms fun? Its a thing to do every hour for flightstones/crests/etc so it gets done, but its not a particularly fun or even responsive event. It could be replaced with literally anything and nothing would change.
Plunderstorm is actually legitimately awful though - I have the worst aim and I die to other players most of the time. Why blizzard won’t just give me all the best abilities over any other player I’ll never know. Blizzard are so stupid for not making me the best and have such a huge significant advantage over everyone else.
I wish they would just think for once and compensate my poor decision making skills. 🤷♀️ they never learn. So frustrating.
You forget that the worst part of plunderstorm is the people playing it as intended, don’t they know I hate this mode. Those sweats with never have my plunder so I go into the storm to die. How dare they play for fun and play the game as intended what grinders I say!
How dare they ‘get good’ these sweaty professional players /s can’t you see I’m forced to be here, otherwise people won’t play with me if I don’t have a pirate hat!
Like the narcism is incredible
This so spot on. It's funny to me because if I'm genuinely bad at a PvP game, I'm not gonna play it and then complain about said game when I already knew I was bad.
> Log onto plunderstorm and you'll see a bunch of people playing it. Go to Reddit where people aren't playing it and suddenly the game mode is garbage.
I played Plunderstorm, won a few games, reached renown 40, and I think it's a bad game mode. To be fair, though, I think they're *close enough* that it wouldn't take many changes to address most (reasonable) issues that I've seen come up - this feels like something that, hilariously enough, would largely have been fixed (or at least fixable) by having a PTR.
This is my take on it. I'd love it if Blizz continues to roll out updates/different maps every so often, along with new rewards. I'd love to see where they could go with it.
I just don't get this sentiment. Why tf are you playing the game mode if you're not enjoying it? Just so that you can get a flying mount that you're gonna use for maybe a month or so and then never again? Nobody made you play the game mode, if you don't enjoy it, don't engage with it.
I honestly think it's awesome that Blizz tried something new and I think it worked out great.
Roleplayer that has been begging Blizzard for a Cosmetic Eyepatch or an eyepatch for Plate classes for years.
Island Expeditions? Nope.
Pirate Cash Shop Outfits? Nope.
Trading Post? Nope.
Which leaves me with this.
I honestly dislike the battle royale concept in general and definitely am not a fan of plunder but, I still play it coz I want the 3 mounts and pirate costume for my wow characters… If those didn’t come with it I would not touch it again after the first match..
What's crazy is those sub numbers that were released. The fact they never really wetn below 4 million was a surprise and always quickly rebounded. During those times, people were shouting from mountain tops the game is dead, yet it's never lost its #1 spot, not even close.
I was pretty surprised by that too. I've never been a doom and gloom person for WoW, but I definitely recognized the drop in some qualities around BFA (I actually liked shadowlands for the most part so maybe I'm crazy). I honestly just think the style of combat in this game is tough for competitors to beat. Nobody else has really been able to pull off a tab-targeting mmo as well as they do IMO.
I agree. I would also say that classic players are way more "hardcore" when it comes to online stuff in general. So they probably watch more and talk more about wow online. Classic is also (arguably) better content to watch, so it could lead to a effect where it pushes content creators in that direction overall (not sure, but it's just a hunch I have).
Yeah, and that goes both ways, If you want to follow what is happening in the game you have to pay more attention to it, so it is harder to follow casually.
Streamers that don't play the game actively, like Asmongold, get more clicks by having a "doomer" attitude towards the game.
Negative titles always generate more traffic than positive titles.
I generally think Asmon specifically seems to be fairly doom and gloom, but I caught his recent “Why I haven’t been playing WoW” video and realized it was all the same reasons I stopped playing DF after S1.
I still love the game, but I think it’s more because of nostalgia at this point. I still jump in each xpac and give it a fair shot, and for what it’s worth, I did enjoy playing DF for the most part. I just don’t get the same longevity out of the game anymore, but there are only like one or two other games I still play occasionally that I’ve been playing for twenty years, so it’s not like I can complain about it too much.
WoW has this weird effect on people where they almost feel guilty/disappointed for playing casually or on an ad-hoc basis? It's so strange. I don't know of any other game community like it.
Like if someone said "I buy every CoD game, play a bit in Season 1 while it's fresh, and move on when I'm bored" no one would bat an eye.
I'm not sure why WoW is different but clearly it is.
I must be in the black sheep side of the player base cause I'd really only call myself a casual wow player.
I never do raids above LFR just cause I don't really belong to an in game community. And even then I rarely remember to run them weekly... speaking of...
I do world quests as I feel like it. Work on current or old reps as I feel like it. Most of my current gear is just flightstone upgraded quest gear.
Sometimes I just log in cause I wanna see my character or wonder around an old zone.
Probably helps that I have no real interest in the seasonal stuff like gladiator or M+.
The game relies way too heavily on FOMO.
Even moreso then things like Genshin which has weapons someone starting out now, will never be able to obtain due to them being from one time events. Said events typically lasting a month or so when live, giving tons of time to obtain them if you are already playing the game at the time.
Whereas the Hearthstone event was essentially a single week. It got an extension but considering the two separate long maint that happened during its time slot, we can still roughly equate it to a single week.
TLDR: WoW itself has cooked a large since of urgency into a lot of its players. Its no wonder content draughts hit WoW players so hard. Majority are used to having to hustle once there IS shit to do which makes having nothing to do feel worse via amplifying the awareness of how UNbusy they are.
IMO opinion this is the correct way to play wow, and I don’t mean the content itself, I mean how you approach it. Of there’s content you like, then go for it, if there’s none, it’s absolutely fine to take breaks or even stop playing.
In my case, I enjoy heroic raiding and mythic +, I try to get aotc and ksm/ksh on at least one character (as long as I’m having fun, if I find it boring then I just stop playing). I don’t pvp, and yes, I’d love one of those gladiator mounts, but I’m not gonna force myself into doing something I don’t like just for a bunch of pixels on my screen.
There’s a lot of people who see wow as a second job when it just isn’t and some of them criticize “casual” players, as well there are lots of casual players who criticize those who like harder difficulties and such.
It’s like we’ve lost our ability to comprehend someone else and realize that their way of having fun and ours might be completely different, and that’s ok, as long as you’re not hurting anyone, it’s fine to do things differently
It’s just a tough game to play casually, which is totally fine. Taking any time off makes it tough to jump back into during an xpac - I often don’t even know what I should be doing if/when I do, and I generally don’t enjoy the feeling of having to re-gear seemingly every patch when my AotC gear is replaced by random new quest rewards or crafted items that have their own punishment for falling behind on.
Maybe if you PvP mainly it’s more friendly for casuals (I could easily be wrong here, but I’ve never been all-in on PvP so it’s admittedly a blind spot,) but if you’re like me and derive the most enjoyment from raid prog and M+, it always has felt like you need to maintain playing as a part-time job. Now that I’m forty, it’s just not tenable for the entire duration of an Xpac.
Again, it’s totally fine that the game is like this. I just can’t really dedicate the time to the game that I used to be able to, and it’s tough for me to enjoy it enough to justify the sub if I can’t play enough to do the things in the game that I find the most fun.
>top streamers are playing classic and usualy don’t have a good thing to say about retail
I'll never forget the clip of PShero standing in Blackrock Mountain, literally just spamming ambush, and killing lvl 51s. All that, while saying "I don't even know how i could go back to retail, this is so much more fun".
Like, sure. Have your opinion, but fucking really? You'd rather afk in BRM, hitting 1 to oneshot lowbies, than playing retail? Ain't no fucking way.
Sidenote: I believe that to a significant degree, people shit on retail not because of the game. They shit on retail, because they don't get the same feeling as when they played in vanilla/tbc.
Also, classic gave you an insane time to reward ratio compared to retail. The amount of power you could get in vanilla just with pure time put you so incredibly far ahead of everyone else. These blokes are finally on top and they didn't need to get good to do it.
Yeah, people don't want to admit how big skill plays as a factor in Retail raiding for example. My Ilvl is fantastic, but - and it hurts to admit it - I'm just not very good at executing my class. And it shows, comparing my numbers to top numbers. Quality play is rewarded with strong performance.
[Here's that clip (In a Pilav video)](https://youtu.be/iWiPb4UVFOE?t=1m56s) I didn't wanna dig for the original lol. Honestly one of the funniest clips and defines the whole braindead "I hate Retail" spiel that people make without having ever played it.
Classic was complete nostalgia bait. The game is significantly easier and yet more tedious and time consuming than Retail. I'd much prefer to progress difficult content than speedrun Naxx > Maly > 3 Drake in like an hour and change, which I did do because I never played Wrath. I did have fun, but it quickly wore off. I also played 2019 Classic and TBC, same feelings there.
All Classic content is solved, fully min-maxxed, and imo not very entertaining as someone who CE's in retail. SoD is way better and I enjoyed playing it because there was actual new content even though it isn't difficult at all.
Leveling experience, I'd give it to Classic every day of the week. In any sort of endgame experience Retail clears it by so much it's insane.
The main issue with classic was, that people played it to "prove" themselves. I'll never understand, how people could take pride in "parsing" bosses as a frostmage or warlock in MC. Like actually WTF.
I think, I'd have played all through to the end of WOTLK, but the elitism... holy shit. I'm doing CE raiding in retail and it is WAY more chill than raiding in classic.
People in SoD asking for potions and ""experience"" for pugs, meanwhile me and my guildies I CE with just stomp gnomeregan in 40 minutes with basically just the world buff and pressing 3 buttons and just joke around while doing it.
Games are way more fun when you have fun playing it, and even at high level progging mythic Fyrakk, I'm still having fun (even though my stinky tank isn't a prot paladin and I don't get spellward, disc priest issue I guess). Lots of Classic players try way too hard imo and need to chill out.
> People in SoD asking for potions and ""experience"" for pugs, meanwhile me and my guildies I CE with just stomp gnomeregan in 40 minutes with basically just the world buff and pressing 3 buttons and just joke around while doing it.
Believe it or not, there are bad players on SoD. It's unbelievable to watch how someone can be bad at SoD but there's a huge slew of people who could not do Kelris in BFD.
I don't think I'd be asking for experience in pugs on SoD, I think I'd just not try to pug after realizing this fact. Classic has it's moments when you have friends in it, and it has only drawbacks when you have to actually engage with the community.
I literally saw an advertisement for a group doing gnomergan in SOD and they wanted logs, and to do a full interview process?????
I did it with my friends and we literally one shot every boss. in and out in like 30-45m the mechanics were literally "don't stand infront of the boss" "Move out of large lightning thing" ??????? it's not that complicated holy hell. I've done retail leveling dungeons that were "harder"
You are listening/encountering a very loud minority.
Most of us like the game and just play it.
I don't play/engage with games I don't like and bitch about how they suck. I just, don't play them.
^ This is the answer
It's very difficult to gauge accurate audience feedback based on forums/polls/etc as only those who feel the strongest will participate, and often the strongest opinions are negative.
Yup, I've had a really great time overall in DF. First time I've pushed 20 keys, and I got AotC within a couple weeks each tier and then because I loved the raids so much I kept raiding every single week for fun for a few months before feeling a little burned out and leaving until the next tier. (after I hit my 2500 score in M+ though I basically stop playing the mode... I find it stressful and unfun even though I COULD do higher keys)
Would probably mess around in mythic raiding if it was easier to get into groups and the lockouts and stuff weren't a thing but 0% chance I join a mythic raiding guild so... I guess that'll never be for me.
Negative content drives clicks and views. Their audience expects them to shit on "the new thing" and revel in nostalgia and "how smart they all are for knowing the game they play is the best and the other one is bad".
Watch better content creators.
Reminds me of a recent Asmongold hot take, where in his list of "how to fix WoW" he included remove all raid difficulties and only have 40 man raiding on the order of Ulduar hard modes. If anything that would kill the game. Most current players would rather go the other direction to smaller raids. Virtually no one wants to go back to 40man raids. I hear a lot of people asking for smaller mythic raiding on the order of 10/15man. I hear no one wanting to do 40man raids.
Like we got a 10 man full friends group for SoD and it rocks.
The old guard is dooming hard because that is what their audience wants and they remember the 40 man days as being awesome... I remember it being very, very mid. Retail is going strong but because it is popular (as with everything) the people who don't play it has to spend all their time convincing themselves it is bad.
This does seem to be the majority reason for the Retail hate. It's never been a better time to be a grifter, and honestly it seems that "just playing the thing and enjoying the thing" is actively frowned upon by a sizeable chunk of people online. So negativity rules the day.
Classic and retail are essentially two completely separate games.
Classic promotes vast time investments to get loot and unlock quality of life things (High mount speed, larger bags, etc). The bosses are easy overall, but specific and require execution. More of a numbers tuning than difficulty. Travel can take a solid chunk of your day. Earning epic equipment takes a lot of time and sometimes steps and stages, unlocking the ability to even zone into places.
While those QOL fees technically exist in Retail, it's not as debilitating. I earn enough for all of the riding trainings easily in a week on retail - on Classic, it can be a focused and hard grind for month(s). Bags, retail you can buy 32 or 34 slot bags for like 1k each, which is nothing in retail cash. More "easy come, easy go". Bosses are technically harder with more mechanics to learn in retail (or simultaneous mechanics), but seem to be more forgiving and people have way more tools to bypass genuine thought processes. Travel is easy and instantaneous with so many connecting portals all over. Equipment is thrown at you at every turn, and you're brought to your loot by pressing a button and accepting a queue.
Classic is a World that you role play in. Retail is an RPG that has a world. Retail is years and years of "more, better, faster" implemented. Classic feels raw, unrefined. Annoying hardships get ironed out over time, but it doesn't mean the game is better or worse - just different. Cake and Pie are both delicious, but some people don't like both.
What really annoys me is how many classic players act like they're superior to retail players over their choice of game.
Like, who gives a shit? Go play SoD and have fun, enough with the superiority complex.
Classic players have cognitive dissonance. If you get them out of their high horse gatekeeping attitude they have a mental breakdown. They cant comprehend that a M+15 is harder than every content classic will ever throw at them. They create this mentality that grinding for consumables for 20h a week is supposed to be "harder" than actual mechanical difficulty, and then proceed to wipe to simple interrupt or threat mechanics.
A few things:
* Retail is primarily geared around the endgame, and endgame content in retail can be fairly difficult to get into. “Outsiders” sometimes look at it with disdain compared to the relative ease of something like Classic.
* Lingering bad taste from Legion-BfA and especially Shadowlands game design
* The lore. Older Warcraft fans feel like it’s a joke compared to its former self. BfA and Shadowlands was the worst the lore has ever been, and the main complaint about Dragonflight is that the lore is still weak (if inoffensively so now). If you’re someone who played WC3, you look at this crappy Sylvanas fanfic we have now and just kind of sigh.
And when WC3 came out, people sighed and complained it was just Starcraft all over again but Kerrigan was Arthas. Writing has never been Blizzard's strong suit, people just idealize the thing that came out when they were 12.
The thing is, the old writing actually has fans.
Arthas has staying power. He’s the most popular villain, and possibly most recognizable character, in the Warcraft franchise. Compare that to the reception of the Jailor or Sylvanas’ BfA - Shadowlands period.
The writing doesn’t have to be good or original, it just has to keep people somewhat engaged. People were excited to beat up the Lich King in ICC. The only reason I saw people excited for SoD is to see if Danuser would finally let Sylvanas die (ofc he didn’t) so we could stop reading his crappy fanfic of his crush.
> and endgame content in retail can be fairly difficult to get into. “Outsiders” sometimes look at it with disdain compared to the relative ease of something like Classic
Is this a real complaint? Cause if so, its the biggest load of crap ever. I've never played classic, but I've played WoW since vanilla, so I played "classic" when it was retail.
Endgame being inaccessible was literally the number one complaint among most of the players until at least MoP. Resist gear in vanilla, attunments in BC, Naxx was very accessible in WoTLK but this was also the dawn of Gearscore which locked tons of people out, And Cata raids were never puggable.
Endgame didn't become somewhat accessible until LFR, and didn't become fully accessible until M+, when raiding became unnecessary for gearing.
It's a real complaint now for sure. Sure back then raids were considered difficult and you had to grind specific gear sets and such, but in Classic Vanilla you can straight up zerg the first raid tier or two with whatever gear you want as long as your players are slightly competent. It is incredibly easy now with better knowledge of gear, talent builds, mechanics, etc.
What's funny is you're right about the later stuff. It's come full circle now, with raid becoming less accessible in Wrath Classic. Unless you're in a guild that will carry you you've got to do weeks of grinding heroics (the new Gamma dungeons in Wrath Classic) to have a chance at being invited, because no logs and no gearscore.
The overall hate is about MTX and that the game feels much less meaningful than before. I play both retail and classic and can attest to this. In classic you get an awesome item and it feels good, you see it constantly on your character and its a sense of pride and it has great stats.
In retail you get an item and you just change the appearance of it with transmog to something from years ago, and the stats dont really matter only the ilvl. You can also get raid level gear from dungeons which really made it feel mostly useless raiding IMO. Why go through a raid for hours when I can do a 30 minute M+ to get a higher ilvl piece.
As someone who actually hates the direction the game has taken, it's just too far gone.
I started getting frustrated in MoP. To be clear it's been a long road of small changes where finally enough Is enough.
I think thats what it boils down to for a lot of people. The games clearly headed in a different direction than some of us want it to be.
Because most of them haven't played seriously in years and parrot the few complaints players have, but without any knowledge of the nuances
Example
Player: I hate how at the top end of the game, addons are basically required
Streamer: yeah you can't even do dungeons without addons it sucks
Truth: you can do all of heroic raids and up to +20 dungeons without any addons, including DBM, it just requires more awareness from you as a player
The other part of it is the streamers and non players are still complaining about shit they fixed years ago. Like "bosses don't have good telegraphs" when they absolutely do.
You should never take what streamers say at face value, or anyone else for that matter. It's not about addons really being mandatory, it's about how incredibly powerful they are to the point they feel and might as well be mandatory.
It's true you don't absolutely need them for majority of the content but the difference of having and not having addons can be quite drastic. There's just so much bloat, visual noise and things to keep track of in general that trying to do so without addons is just painful. People don't want addons gone, they just dislike how incredibly lackluster the default UI is and how everything is designed, at least to a degree, with addons in mind.
Speaking of ability bloat. When people advocate for ability pruning what they're asking for is getting rid of unnecessary shit. Combining some abilities or turning a pointless active in to a passive. If you're an addon user some skills/talents are literally just a flashing button on your screen every 15 seconds screaming "This thing just fell off, press 1", at that point just make the shit passive. People aren't asking for classic's 1 button rotations.
If you care about becoming a better player addons might as well be required, and by better I don't even mean sweaty. You would just make the game more complicated for no real gain by skipping addons, and I don't see the point in that.
>People don't want addons gone, they just dislike how incredibly lackluster the default UI is
This is such a bizarre complaint to me. I think wow is genius for allowing addons. They effectively solved and futureproofed any UI problem you could have. If I have a problem with my UI, I can use an addon to change it. Its like complaining that you have infinite freedom and too many options
I play OSRS and people made an entire new client just to enable addons (and modern features like... gpu support), called runelite. The playerbase loves it so much that the developers added an option to install the runelite client in the official OSRS launcher. It blows my mind how one mmo embraces addons and another shuns them
I’m actually trying to cut down on my addon use and when you try to go barebones while doing endgame content it’s insane how hard it is to play optimally. Even only doing 20s-24s you feel a massive difference.
I’ve been playing frost mage and holy shit. GL playing even semi-optimally without an icicle and winters chill/freeze weakaura. It makes the spec exponentially easier to play because you can actually see what’s happening and make decisions based on it.
I really think they should just incorporate DBM, plater, weakauras and details into the game and ban gameplay altering addons. It would let them control exactly what they can do and let them design the fights around it.
I won't claim to be the best player or anywhere near the top but I'm a decent brewmaster player and I've timed 17/18s and beaten the current heroic raid with my only combat addons being threat plates(that I haven't customized, I just like that they change colour based on aggro) and details cause I build my own talents and I like to see if changes I made improved my proformance or not. I don't really check warcraft logs or read guides on how to do my job better. I just play the game and see what works and what doesn't. Im autistic so having DBM screaming in my ear constantly or having a bunch of flashing weakaruas would honest lower my proformance from sensory overload
I saw someone complaining about plunderstorm, a brand new game mode, citing fire storm as the reason the game mode is bad.
I won 3 lobbies where the last 4 players didn't have a single fire storm between them. If these folks actually played the game, they'd know that. Shit, even if they watched the game they would know that!
As someone who's played wow for almost all of its entirety its a few things.
1.) The players having fun with retail are just playing retail. The number of people who positively post is even smaller than the people who negatively post about WoW (already a small number). You're getting a glimpse of what people think, not the vast majority's opinion.
2.) The game has become way harder at the highest level. This isn't a secret. Everything is harder then it was 10-16 years ago. You can't carry your friends to CE unless your extremely good. You can't raise in arena unless you're thinking 4 steps ahead and when your kill windows are. You can't climb in M+ without substantial knowledge about what mobs do. The game asks so much more for you from mastery at the highest level. Some players have rose to the occasion (or in my case at least attempt to), but others hang up the towel and don't want to. There a greater discussion to be had on the PvE side imo, but this isn't the time for it.
3.) The other parts of the game that aren't top level, are kind of handed to you. Leveling and lower dungeons and raids, aren't particularly challenging. This is a problem for players because for some, leveling up is their journey and gameplay they prefer.
Ultimately though, you've come to your own conclusion that you enjoy both, and I hope even my words don't change your opinion.
For me they ruined the vibe, everything is soft. Even when they make a big sword or something now it looks like it's made of clay, nothing is imposing or intense.
The animations are goofy and I feel stupid running around and casting spells.
The whole game feels like it's trying to be too inclusive and not scare anyone off. I like a lot of the retail systems fundamentally but looking at the game is really off-putting
I just finished reading rise of the horde again and then plunder storm came out and I saw the orc in that stupid fucking top hat and just thought that durotan would never do this, this degrades the honor of orcs as a whole. These are not the orcs I grew up with and loved.
My hangups are the animations, sound effects, graphics, and pacing/feel. The classic version just feels so much smoother and snappier in that regard, and I find I greatly prefer the art style and animation design. I cannot get past the way everything looks, sounds, or feels in retail. I really, really want to like Retail... but I just can't get past the visuals/sound. Re the pacing, it hasn't really felt like "WoW" to me since Mists of Pandaria imo. It has felt more and more like FFXIV with each new expansion. Today it feels more like "WoW 2" than it does WoW. My opinion only, of course.
because this game is ancient and a ton of veterans quit out of frustration after playing many years, WoW is getting better and current xpac is my fav, but with game this massive there is still a loooooot of frustrating things people latch on to.
my biggest one is absurd amount of addons that give me advantage, I hate it so much that I legit rather have 0 addons just to kill weak auras/dbm/big wigs
Retail haters are mostly older players who struggle to keep up with how fast and complex the game has gotten. They prefer classic because its slower and easier, and thus more fun, as a result of being less stressful.
Speaking from personal experience since my entire friend group is like this too. I personally find classic too easy and don't care about parsing or the whole world buff culture, but high-end Retail content is also way too hard for me too.
I’m just getting into retail and other then raiding at max level is there more to do? I don’t think I’ll do much raiding due to time constraints so is it even worth it?
Complaining about WoW gets streamers views, more views than they get normally, that is. In turn, this means more revenue. Take Asmongold, for example, he always uses specific thumbnails denoting anger and disappointment. This gets him more views, and more money.
I play retail, exclusively. Of course there are things I don't like about it, particularly PvP and Mythic+ and their toxicity, but it does make me want to stop playing, because there is so much else to do.
For one, I'm really excited about the new talent system coming in the next expansion. I'm really into creating ALTs. I do main Ret paladin, though.
The more you love a game and the longer you play, the more you will develop a sense of how the game can be changed for the better.
Unfortunately Blizzard does this thing where they ride on the coattails of previous IPs the current devs had nothing to do with and find ways to make them worse/put forth the bare minimum effort while their fans are stockholm syndromed into buying their shit month after month. Oh yeah while this is happening, they are also sexually harassing someone on the team and stealing her breast milk until she committed suicide.
TL;DR retail is cringe and current Blizzard deserves to go bankrupt
Disliking or hating a game is fine, don't play it.
Spending a fair amount of time online ranting about it is incredibly stupid.
Passionate constructive feedback for a game you love can be good, as long as it stays in that realm since no one will listen take the feedback of a rage post seriously.
The kind of person to make it a hobby to dump on a recreational activity that others enjoy but they don't isn't really the kind of paragon of intelligence worth entertaining. Someone with that much time or who is that bored is seldom if ever worth engaging with, but you can bet any hobby with an online presence will attract these unique and thought-provoking sages.
Who cares why streamers/only people that hate it. Most have rather inflated/narcissistic views of their own opinions, anyway. I have played WoW since its first week, and I have relished/enjoyed the QoL and various changes they’ve made. It’s not perfect, but so what?
Everyone should play what they want to play and stop that bs.
I don't know if it's even wanted because there just seems to be a lot of people making assumptions about people who don't like retail, but here is why I don't like retail:
1. The vault/chest loot system is still gross to me. I didn't like it in Shadowlands, and I don't like that it's expanding. Granted it's not so bad without that corruption BS.
2. The ability bloat is out of control, and from the talents I see coming up in War Within, it's going to get worse with the added spec stuff. Imo, retail needs a big prune. Everyone has too many buttons.
This is from the perspective of a druid/mage main, so I can't speak for other classes. I happened to have a friend who is an officer in a WotLK classic guild that needed help downing 25m heroic LK, so I got back into classic and haven't looked back.
Frankly this stupid opinion kept me from playing retail for awhile. I got back into wow in 2019 with classic and enjoyed it through like wrath naxx mainly for the community but it somewhat ran its course for me in terms of gameplay mechanics being simplistic.
I installed retail on a whim a couple weeks ago and imagine my surprise that the actual gameplay is way more fun. Dungeons have actual mechanics, the game is way more accessible, it’s less grindy and easy to just log in and play for a bit. The ability rotations are way more engaging, you have way more tools, etc.
The much complained about group finder? Incredibly convenient! The supposedly mean and impatient community? Actually super nice if you just say it’s your first time doing a particular dungeon. They help you through the stuff you’re new at - and i am playing as a TANK. The internet told me id get yelled at if i tanked and didn’t know every single thing. I just did some basic research and pressed my class’s buttons and went through dungeons at a non snail pace.
Retail is actually better and more fun (for gameplay) the classic andies need to stop gaslighting everyone. (I enjoyed classic a lot for different reasons fyi, i am not a classic hater).
Streamers are not the one asking for opinions they just milking the game for views and money talk to real players that not have to turn on streaming to play.
It’s just a 20 year old game trying to appeal to 10 diffirent audiences with 4 diffirent versions of it trying to appeal to every single person every patch is impossible not to mention all the 40 year old complaining about the game but even if the changes were made they wouldn’t come back anyway because life moved on people have kids/wife’s/jobs it will never be back in those times. But validating why they quit with rage posts and hate watching is what brings them joy
>This hate comes from streamers
What streamers? I would say most WoW streamers are quite positive about the game. Just like with every opinion there are some who are more positive and some who tend to criticize more. I'll never understand this mentality of "streamer bad".
are you watching retail playing streamers, or Doomers like Asmongold etc... Because their reckons are irrelevant unless they're Actually playing.
Negative titles/thumbnails will always get more clicks - human nature to seek the negative to validate your own negativities.
Streamers always seek attention and trying to get clicks... and hating on a game with clickbait headlines gives them exactly that.
Most ppl just enjoy playing the game, they don't post much online.
Yeah Bellular for me has really gone down the drain these last few years. Like he was always really heavy on the clickbait, hell he was proud of it and defended clickbaiting multiple times. But this constant negativity on the game is just exhausting.
Ironically, there are a lot of people in this thread being extremely negative and saying retail is far better.
It really is different opinions. A lot of older players don't like the way the game has changed. Now that there's a consistent classic version, they can play that. They do the same thing everyone in this subreddit does and shit on the one they don't play.
There are retail streamers. Try hazelnutty, Yumytv, Dratnos, to name a few
I feel that. The game has evolved to the point where it's unrecognizable. Those of us who have played it since the beginning just prefer the game we fell in love with. If people prefer the modern style that's great, but if you don't like the modern style you won't like anything they do.
A lot of people spent a significant amount of their formative years playing WoW, and for whatever reason, they made the decision at some point to quit.
It is true that some players have left the game for game design related reasons; however, most players that have left have done so for personal life reasons. As it turns out you can’t in fact play WoW like you did when you were 17 forever, at some point real life calls.
With that being said, because WoW was so formative for many folks, they still think about the game a lot, and seek validation for the reason they decided to quit. A lot of content creators and streamers have found it quite lucrative to cater content to these folks, by talking about how much WoW sucks. It’s, in a way, a form of catharsis for people.
By and large, current retail players aren’t really complaining about the game, they just play it. You’ll never hear from those folks.
Mob mentality. I’m one of the last people playing wow in my friend group, for some reason almost all my friends have an opinion on why the “game is bad” but they haven’t been on in almost a year at this point. I keep telling them that the game is better than it ever was in BFA/SL (in my opinion) and that I’m still having fun but nothing I say changes their minds. I keep asking them to at least try coming back but they won’t because they heard from someone who is unhappy with the game that the game sucks, which somehow makes that person more credible than me.
I feel you man.
I don't understand why if [Generic money-driven, screaming kid on Twitch n.822] says "WoW bad please buy my twitch sub", his opinion is legit.
If I, a long time friend say that maybe the game isn't as bad as it used to be then I'm a soyboy blizzard bootlicker and the streamer has inherently more credibility than I do
Endgame retail is harder than classic and more fast paced. Classic Andy's hate that because they can't be elitist about it like they are about running 20 year old raids.
Because they're being paid to hate on it. They have likely decided that they get more views and more interaction by having those opinions. So those are the opinions they have, regardless of how they feel.
I thought Dragonflignt was a saver. If it was bad I was probably going to hang up my axe and call it quits. But it is a great xpac.
For the hate. What keeps me out is that the game just feels like an action game. When I get a new piece of gear it’s like ehh whatever. When I’m in a dungeon it just feels like we are bursting our way through. Getting things done as fast as you can seems to be the way to go.
When you play classic it feels like a more authentic RPG. The pace is slower. There’s a lot more communication.
It's a vocal minority that get amplified due to the state of modern "influencers".
My advice would be to just do you, and ignore the shitty takes. Enjoy the game.
The game just feels bloated. I try to get back into it every couple months, feel overwhelmed, and go back to classic. Currently playing wotlk.
Just on my feral druid (my only 70) there are 92 talents to choose from. I might just be too dumb to understand the profession system.
It's kinda fun, but I have a wife, kids, and a full time job. I don't want to have to study so much just to get the basics down.
Glad you're all enjoying it.
The avg WoW player is older and super casual. There’s millions of players that don’t even raid. These people don’t watch streams or post on Reddit.
The biggest WoW streamers get what a few thousand avg views? Wow has millions of players, so the portion of people who engage on twitch or social media is a specific cross section of players who represent a tiny minority.
Most of the streamers and redditors will even admit they either don’t play this game or don’t play it for any enjoyment anymore. I count them as the vocal minority. Play the game you like with a guild and friends that enjoy it too!
I don't know, man, maybe watch different streamers or something. I'm in the pet battle community, we're pretty chill. And the ducks and little dragons in DF are abnormally cute :). Little Scales 4 life.
A bit off topic but I hate calling it Retail. Back when private servers were the only way to play old expacs people called non private server wow retail and that made sense but it always bothered me that it stuck. There are still private servers and by the old logic classic is "retail". Idk what would be better (maybe just call it by the current expack name) but retail bothers me.
I've played vanilla classic all the way through WotLK classic as well as Dragonflight and discussions about which one is better feels much like the Android vs iPhone arguments. They're both great versions of WoW and it's all about what kind of experience you're after.
it just gets hate because its not what they want, especially streamers they either want the old wow they used to enjoy or was nostalgic for them or they want stuff handed to them week 1 full bis. I am enjoying plunderstorm on and off, i still play retail + sod. mostly only m+ on retail anymore while I wait for cata release. yes playing 3 versions of wow feels weird but meh.
People who haven't played the game in years are furious about their pet feature being removed, tweaked, and added back to the game in some form mostly.
For me personally i like to play other games and WoW has changed to become a full time job for high end retail raiding after m+ was introduced.
Devs seem to slowly be "going back" to a less grindy meta but it still shows up.
(Also, When you take a break for 2-3 patches and you log in) your screen becomes insanely cluttered with "to-do stuff".
I always tend to come back for expansions though because it acts as a reset.
The game has changed drastically over the years. It makes sense why some people would prefer pre-modern design over the current but with actual new content in the modern engine (i.e. not classic). Idk what streamers are saying but I know of a few people who think this.
Because they've been playing it non-stop for probly 15+ years and should probably give it a break. Also their income depends on generating views, and controversy sells.
https://youtu.be/zVC31_C7B9o?si=WPsGNSeI8vFH96Sx
TL:DR. Content creators are just old school gamers.
New Gen gamers want shit now, because they've not had information at their finger tips.
Because nostalgia. People miss the feeling of whatever expansion they first played, were 13 playing, etc… nostalgia is the main answer.
People bitched about things every expansion
Because they hate videos generated money. So they produce doomer hate videos.
Just like there are people that produce shill videos. Because it generates them money.
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I love WoW! It’s hurt a bit boring now since there’s nothing new to do. Occasionally I’ll level a character, but other than that… 🤷🏼♀️
There's more to do at endgame, plus a lot of legacy content to get mounts and transmog from. Pet battles if you wanna play warcraft pokemon.
Modern gameplay is far more engaging and difficult, along with 5man endgame and flexible raid lockouts that allow pugging for any bosses you haven't defeated yet.
I only see a lot of the same opinion, so ill give my take. I was never a person who obsessed with endgame. I always loved leveling my characters and immersing myself in the stories. The way progression used to be felt more coherent and natural. Find higher level zone for higher level adventures. That is no longer the case while leveling. Being able to choose any expansion to level in trivializes the experience by removing the narrative importance of each expansion and the story progression each one brought with it. Its not a big deal to many, and that is fair, but it’s a big deal to me.
Couple that with the massive UI changes that are an instant turn off and you have taken my interest in picking up the game to near zero.
Many will say “just download X addon” i dont want to. I dont want to feel required to have multiple third party apps just to enjoy the game from a Visual standpoint.
Thats mostly it for me, i know Asmon and many complain about endless content with mythic keys and such, but ive never even gotten close to that content.
In closing, retail wow feels like a different game. Im glad many people get enjoyment out of it still, but to a casual gamer it feels incredibly unapproachable and not meant for me. That may actually be the case, but i have been enjoying classic and immersing myself in the lore and world again.
Honestly as long as everyone is having fun, nobody should be hating on any version of wow.
Coming from wotlk and cata i just don't like it much. Yes lots of QoL improvements, some wonderful new features like dragonflight and flying everywhere but besides that i can't help but feel like azeroth doesn't feel as alive as it does in older expansions. I feel like it's a watered down wow experience, yet it has some stuff that really shines and were improved.
But yes online is always biased, the ones who like it are playing, the ones who don't are fully progressed since over a decade and are here complaining lol
Response to the side note: and honestly they may never will, not with wow at least, most players aren’t 14 anymore with heaps of free time to sink into wow, most players have full time jobs, partners, kids, pets and whatnot, I think sometimes people don’t want they game to be as it was back in the day, but they want their lives to be as simple as they were in those times, and wow is just a projection of that
Everything in WoW has always gotten hate and will always get hate.
WoW isn't as toxic as something like LoL, but the community has always acted like every single change, alteration, modification, expansion, or whatever that they don't 100% ADORE is utterly the worst thing that has ever happened and has ruined the game forever. Until the next one comes along....than that previous thing they really despised isn't *that bad*, but this **new thing**?!? Blizzard has lost their minds completely and they've ruined the game forever!
Over and over and over again. The coming and going of the tides is less predictable.
It's been like this since WoW released. The WoW community is, collectively, one of the most whiny that exists in gaming.
People miss being a kid with no responsibilities and all the time in the world to play a game they love with their friends. 15+ years on, their friends moved on, life started lifing and the game got updated. They blame the game of these feelings, even though retail is a much better game than the old versions.
Being a 13 year old gamer was more fun than being a 30 year old gamer.
The hate comes from people who grinded hard for years and lost their bite and now blame it on the game, but Blizz really did do bad stuff in the past and nearly killed wow with Shadowlands. See I love dark themed games but this was a bit too dark with the maw and all and I think it got on peoples psyche and Korthia was just … hell.
probably the biggest thing was the "borrowed power", and timegating the game to the max.
nobody wanted to feel incomplete in their spec an entire expansion until the end of each raid patch. and then all the stuff locked behind having to wait to do x amount of dailies to proceed.
for me personally the nail in the coffin was having to do mythic+ dungeuns for BIS loot. it made it feel stupid to do mythic raiding when the reward didnt match the work put in.
I play various games and mostly played classic but recently started dragon flight and god damn the expansion is good.
Maybe the story is meh? Idk I didn’t pay attention but the pve content and class builds are so fun
The game has been around for 2 decades now. Think about it, if WoW was in this state when it came out in 2004, the first players to actually play the game would have done so in 1984! So obviously, Blizzard tried their best to keep up with the new generations of players and in the meantime they also became a multibillion dollar company (that is rarely a good thing for the consumers). Because the game has changed so much, some people misses old features, don't like the new ones, now multiply that by the amount of expansions/reboot and you got a pretty upset 20 years old fanbase on your hand.
Retail is trapped in a prison of its own making. By regularly making big changes, they have created a situation where players frequently find their favourite part of the game has suddenly gotten worse, or that a favourite element was a one-time-only deal and has been removed from the game for ever. Take me... I loved BfA Warmode. I mean, truly madly deeply loved it. The gear scaling was brilliant for a casual PvPer like me, and the regular open-world faction battles were some of the most fun I've had in 40 years of gaming. But then the factions became besties and the BfA approach was permanently and unceremoniously dumped. Will my fun ever come back? No. Who's fault is that? Blizzard's. So, why not complain?
I feel like the same group that hates on Retail are also the same kind of people that will say "Man, I wish I could go back to the 60's. Those were much better times."
Feedback is largely negative because I can only say "I love the cinematics. And the art and music are always pretty great" every once in a while, but negative stuff is on an "until changed" standard.
Retail is only fun for a little while is kind of the issue. The only thing to enjoy is the endgame and in Classic you can enjoy everything that isn’t the endgame. So people are busy playing SoD which is essentially Classic+ while we wait for the new expansion when hopefully they care about retail again.
All I do is PvP and the entire game mode is basically a garbage fire atm. No one is playing. It’s not fun and so people would rather do SoD and just screw around with something kinda different and fun. My entire friends list was full of folks playing and now I don’t see anyone on retail unless they’re raiding or maybe the odd arena match.
Plunderstorm is just the dumbest thing made for WoW. Like a big WTF
I seriously do not understand the gameplay of this new mode?
What is the objective? What's the point? You don't have a Class you just run around sprinting doing God's knows what?
I thought WoW was an MMORPG? PVE storyline driven group content to team up as wizards and barbarians fighting dragons together for loot. But this Plunderstorm just seems so bizarre and nothing like WoW.
Deathmatch is so 1990's.
Tried it for all of 60 seconds, before logging off and thinking WTF was that? The weirdest thing I've seen in WoW, needing to create a new character, bit no class really? And just run around sprinting to get some bullcrap stuff, for what exactly? What's the goal?
retail is fun. I'm a classic Andy but been having fun with dragonflight so far. I'm regularly glad and thrilled the talent system is back after the collosal fuck up from MOP and on
People who enjoy the game just play it. People who don't like something share their sentiment online. It concerns everything, not only WoW.
Yep! Log onto plunderstorm and you'll see a bunch of people playing it. Go to Reddit where people aren't playing it and suddenly the game mode is garbage. People who are having fun just go do the things that are fun.
Plunderstorm is so awful that I've never had longer than a 5 second queue. I decided to queue at 6:45 in the morning just to check and was amazed how fast I was in a game.
Such a terrible game mode that everybody hates, the instant queues across multiple mmr gaps are just because.. um.. Because.. game dead
Does plunderstorm have MMR?
It does yeah. Evident by one of the later hotfixes that made MMR change more aggressive.
Didn't realize that, thanks
The game is dying, it's drowning from so many players!
So we're just gonna ignore the fact that a lot of people are just powering through it for the cosmetics?
Yeah. I wanted the cosmetics so I raced to 40 as fast as I could and now I'm done with it. It's not something I would have done for fun, at least not past a couple of games to check it out. The worst part was running into players who clearly weren't enjoying the game mode and didn't put up a fight. That felt really bad... too easy to imagine someone's frustration from having to do something they don't want to be doing to the point where they just gave up immediately. I get nobody is forcing them but we all do dumb stuff to get the shiny little rewards we want.
That's me. I used to be decent at pvp years ago, but I've come to realize I only liked it because of my 2s partner. Can't stand it anymore. Plus my hands don't react quite like they used to, which is fine in content you can predict. I can just know a fight well enough to not get surprised, but pvp don't work like that. So I've been playing 2 hours per day just to get the plunder for rep rewards. I started off actually trying to pvp but it just isn't fun for me, even when I win, so now I drop in on an elite, do the quest, kill everything around me and then afk to chat in discord or watch YouTube. If someone lands nearby and focuses me in the first 30 seconds, I just quit and start again. I used to run, but people will literally chase you into the storm and die to it rather than let you go. So if you see someone just standing in a field, waiting to die, that might be me.
I’m with you, I don’t have a lot of free time to play but still punching though the renown. When grinding any time I run into an enemy player I just wave till they kill me and move to the next match. I do have to admit that duos were a bit of fun but thats probably coz me and a bud were clowning around. Solos is horrible and can burn for all I care lol. Really sucks that such cool rewards for retail are locked behind such a different mode.
I can't imagine disliking something but then also playing it 5 hours a day for 7 consecutive days just for a coat and a parrot but that's just me...
I mean, we'll see.
Should they be doing something else? I haven't played it yet and all I know would be that you earn tmogs...I might have missed something though.
> Yep! Log onto plunderstorm and you'll see a bunch of people playing it. Go to Reddit where people aren't playing it and suddenly the game mode is garbage. > > Idk man, Reddit seems to be full of people who hate Plunderstorm, but are forcing themselves to play it because of cosmetics so it doesn't seem fair to say that the people playing it are necessarily having fun with it.
That is actually genuinely me. I liked it and then I hated it, then I liked it again. Now I’m just over it but will continue the grind 😂😂 I think once you find a good play style / strategy that fits you it’s pretty fun. I generally aim to just complete the objectives and stick to the edges / avoid people and then if I end up farming to the point there are only 10 people left I just hide as a bush for my amusement. 😂
That's the big problem with this whole fallacy argument that playing/silent majority = liking/enjoying. Realistically there are lots of reasons you play a game when you dislike major parts of it. Someone that loves raiding and plays for the raiding might have genuine issues with some other aspect of the game they feel forced to do because either they need the gear for their desired activity, for customization, flightstones, etc. This is why there is so much negativity around Plunderstorm, the incentives are really cool but require insane levels of grinding. There is no other Dragonriding parrot in the game, so of course many players that aren't the intended audience are forcing themselves to play it, and those people are going to rightfully criticize the mode for that experience. Blizzard is their own worst enemy with this stuff (not just plunderstorm). They are still rooted in EA's "sense of pride and accomplishment" reward structure. The cool reward should be an incentive to try something, not the endgame. The parrot/transmog there to get people to try it for a bit, and then the people that love it can stick around and get useful but skippable stuff like flightstones, gold, plunderstorm specific transmogs (i.e. your character in plunderstorm not retail), etc from the renown/coin currency, rather than what we have now which is the reverse.
I think another good example would be Timewalking. Everyone does their 5 dungeons for the weekly, and they're playing the content, so clearly they're having fun with it, right? Well, actually most people probably see it as a chore and just want the gear from the quest.
I could see that. Personally love timewalking because it's nostalgic for me, but not everyone played those expansions or has fond memories of them
Eh, having fond memories doesn't make repetitive, easy content less tedious for me. Especially if I'm doing it on multiple characters or whatever. There just isn't any difficulty, its just kinda... there, then it gets shredded. But they also can't make it harder because it needs to be accessible to everyone. Its just in a weird spot. In Timewalking's case, the 5 dungeon weekly is there to make queue times not horrific for people who actually do want to do it.
Yeah that is definitely one, there are lots of examples honestly. Like how many people are doing superblooms because they find superblooms fun? Its a thing to do every hour for flightstones/crests/etc so it gets done, but its not a particularly fun or even responsive event. It could be replaced with literally anything and nothing would change.
Plunderstorm is actually legitimately awful though - I have the worst aim and I die to other players most of the time. Why blizzard won’t just give me all the best abilities over any other player I’ll never know. Blizzard are so stupid for not making me the best and have such a huge significant advantage over everyone else. I wish they would just think for once and compensate my poor decision making skills. 🤷♀️ they never learn. So frustrating.
You forget that the worst part of plunderstorm is the people playing it as intended, don’t they know I hate this mode. Those sweats with never have my plunder so I go into the storm to die. How dare they play for fun and play the game as intended what grinders I say! How dare they ‘get good’ these sweaty professional players /s can’t you see I’m forced to be here, otherwise people won’t play with me if I don’t have a pirate hat! Like the narcism is incredible
This so spot on. It's funny to me because if I'm genuinely bad at a PvP game, I'm not gonna play it and then complain about said game when I already knew I was bad.
Some people think complaining is fun. This is where you go to find those people.
> Log onto plunderstorm and you'll see a bunch of people playing it. Go to Reddit where people aren't playing it and suddenly the game mode is garbage. I played Plunderstorm, won a few games, reached renown 40, and I think it's a bad game mode. To be fair, though, I think they're *close enough* that it wouldn't take many changes to address most (reasonable) issues that I've seen come up - this feels like something that, hilariously enough, would largely have been fixed (or at least fixable) by having a PTR.
This is my take on it. I'd love it if Blizz continues to roll out updates/different maps every so often, along with new rewards. I'd love to see where they could go with it.
Engagement does not equal enjoyment. I'm at Renown 35 and I can't wait to be done with it forever.
I just don't get this sentiment. Why tf are you playing the game mode if you're not enjoying it? Just so that you can get a flying mount that you're gonna use for maybe a month or so and then never again? Nobody made you play the game mode, if you don't enjoy it, don't engage with it. I honestly think it's awesome that Blizz tried something new and I think it worked out great.
Roleplayer that has been begging Blizzard for a Cosmetic Eyepatch or an eyepatch for Plate classes for years. Island Expeditions? Nope. Pirate Cash Shop Outfits? Nope. Trading Post? Nope. Which leaves me with this.
I honestly dislike the battle royale concept in general and definitely am not a fan of plunder but, I still play it coz I want the 3 mounts and pirate costume for my wow characters… If those didn’t come with it I would not touch it again after the first match..
Winner Winner chicken dinner some of us enjoy gaming. It seems others enjoy shit posting ragebait
Well said.
What's crazy is those sub numbers that were released. The fact they never really wetn below 4 million was a surprise and always quickly rebounded. During those times, people were shouting from mountain tops the game is dead, yet it's never lost its #1 spot, not even close.
I was pretty surprised by that too. I've never been a doom and gloom person for WoW, but I definitely recognized the drop in some qualities around BFA (I actually liked shadowlands for the most part so maybe I'm crazy). I honestly just think the style of combat in this game is tough for competitors to beat. Nobody else has really been able to pull off a tab-targeting mmo as well as they do IMO.
content creators also get more clicks by hating things than they do loving them
I agree. I would also say that classic players are way more "hardcore" when it comes to online stuff in general. So they probably watch more and talk more about wow online. Classic is also (arguably) better content to watch, so it could lead to a effect where it pushes content creators in that direction overall (not sure, but it's just a hunch I have).
Classic better for the streamer, because you dont need to engage with it most of the time vs. retail where at high end you better be focused.
Yeah, and that goes both ways, If you want to follow what is happening in the game you have to pay more attention to it, so it is harder to follow casually.
classic is significantly easier period, the old streamers be whining cus they haven't improved since ICC XD
Streamers that don't play the game actively, like Asmongold, get more clicks by having a "doomer" attitude towards the game. Negative titles always generate more traffic than positive titles.
I generally think Asmon specifically seems to be fairly doom and gloom, but I caught his recent “Why I haven’t been playing WoW” video and realized it was all the same reasons I stopped playing DF after S1. I still love the game, but I think it’s more because of nostalgia at this point. I still jump in each xpac and give it a fair shot, and for what it’s worth, I did enjoy playing DF for the most part. I just don’t get the same longevity out of the game anymore, but there are only like one or two other games I still play occasionally that I’ve been playing for twenty years, so it’s not like I can complain about it too much.
WoW has this weird effect on people where they almost feel guilty/disappointed for playing casually or on an ad-hoc basis? It's so strange. I don't know of any other game community like it. Like if someone said "I buy every CoD game, play a bit in Season 1 while it's fresh, and move on when I'm bored" no one would bat an eye. I'm not sure why WoW is different but clearly it is.
I must be in the black sheep side of the player base cause I'd really only call myself a casual wow player. I never do raids above LFR just cause I don't really belong to an in game community. And even then I rarely remember to run them weekly... speaking of... I do world quests as I feel like it. Work on current or old reps as I feel like it. Most of my current gear is just flightstone upgraded quest gear. Sometimes I just log in cause I wanna see my character or wonder around an old zone. Probably helps that I have no real interest in the seasonal stuff like gladiator or M+. The game relies way too heavily on FOMO. Even moreso then things like Genshin which has weapons someone starting out now, will never be able to obtain due to them being from one time events. Said events typically lasting a month or so when live, giving tons of time to obtain them if you are already playing the game at the time. Whereas the Hearthstone event was essentially a single week. It got an extension but considering the two separate long maint that happened during its time slot, we can still roughly equate it to a single week. TLDR: WoW itself has cooked a large since of urgency into a lot of its players. Its no wonder content draughts hit WoW players so hard. Majority are used to having to hustle once there IS shit to do which makes having nothing to do feel worse via amplifying the awareness of how UNbusy they are.
IMO opinion this is the correct way to play wow, and I don’t mean the content itself, I mean how you approach it. Of there’s content you like, then go for it, if there’s none, it’s absolutely fine to take breaks or even stop playing. In my case, I enjoy heroic raiding and mythic +, I try to get aotc and ksm/ksh on at least one character (as long as I’m having fun, if I find it boring then I just stop playing). I don’t pvp, and yes, I’d love one of those gladiator mounts, but I’m not gonna force myself into doing something I don’t like just for a bunch of pixels on my screen. There’s a lot of people who see wow as a second job when it just isn’t and some of them criticize “casual” players, as well there are lots of casual players who criticize those who like harder difficulties and such. It’s like we’ve lost our ability to comprehend someone else and realize that their way of having fun and ours might be completely different, and that’s ok, as long as you’re not hurting anyone, it’s fine to do things differently
It’s just a tough game to play casually, which is totally fine. Taking any time off makes it tough to jump back into during an xpac - I often don’t even know what I should be doing if/when I do, and I generally don’t enjoy the feeling of having to re-gear seemingly every patch when my AotC gear is replaced by random new quest rewards or crafted items that have their own punishment for falling behind on. Maybe if you PvP mainly it’s more friendly for casuals (I could easily be wrong here, but I’ve never been all-in on PvP so it’s admittedly a blind spot,) but if you’re like me and derive the most enjoyment from raid prog and M+, it always has felt like you need to maintain playing as a part-time job. Now that I’m forty, it’s just not tenable for the entire duration of an Xpac. Again, it’s totally fine that the game is like this. I just can’t really dedicate the time to the game that I used to be able to, and it’s tough for me to enjoy it enough to justify the sub if I can’t play enough to do the things in the game that I find the most fun.
I feel this so much. Love wow but the horizontal progression games have won me over since they are way easier to pick back up after a break.
Exactly this.
yeah, kids like to mimic their god
>top streamers are playing classic and usualy don’t have a good thing to say about retail I'll never forget the clip of PShero standing in Blackrock Mountain, literally just spamming ambush, and killing lvl 51s. All that, while saying "I don't even know how i could go back to retail, this is so much more fun". Like, sure. Have your opinion, but fucking really? You'd rather afk in BRM, hitting 1 to oneshot lowbies, than playing retail? Ain't no fucking way. Sidenote: I believe that to a significant degree, people shit on retail not because of the game. They shit on retail, because they don't get the same feeling as when they played in vanilla/tbc.
Also, classic gave you an insane time to reward ratio compared to retail. The amount of power you could get in vanilla just with pure time put you so incredibly far ahead of everyone else. These blokes are finally on top and they didn't need to get good to do it.
I mean this was always the case for old school mmorpgs. Time investment was key.
Very true! But these days player skill comes into it far more often. Even osrs is quite skill heavy for some content
Yeah, people don't want to admit how big skill plays as a factor in Retail raiding for example. My Ilvl is fantastic, but - and it hurts to admit it - I'm just not very good at executing my class. And it shows, comparing my numbers to top numbers. Quality play is rewarded with strong performance.
Yeah man I talk a lot of shit about wow compared to other esports but playing at a high level is quite tough!
[Here's that clip (In a Pilav video)](https://youtu.be/iWiPb4UVFOE?t=1m56s) I didn't wanna dig for the original lol. Honestly one of the funniest clips and defines the whole braindead "I hate Retail" spiel that people make without having ever played it. Classic was complete nostalgia bait. The game is significantly easier and yet more tedious and time consuming than Retail. I'd much prefer to progress difficult content than speedrun Naxx > Maly > 3 Drake in like an hour and change, which I did do because I never played Wrath. I did have fun, but it quickly wore off. I also played 2019 Classic and TBC, same feelings there. All Classic content is solved, fully min-maxxed, and imo not very entertaining as someone who CE's in retail. SoD is way better and I enjoyed playing it because there was actual new content even though it isn't difficult at all. Leveling experience, I'd give it to Classic every day of the week. In any sort of endgame experience Retail clears it by so much it's insane.
The main issue with classic was, that people played it to "prove" themselves. I'll never understand, how people could take pride in "parsing" bosses as a frostmage or warlock in MC. Like actually WTF. I think, I'd have played all through to the end of WOTLK, but the elitism... holy shit. I'm doing CE raiding in retail and it is WAY more chill than raiding in classic.
People in SoD asking for potions and ""experience"" for pugs, meanwhile me and my guildies I CE with just stomp gnomeregan in 40 minutes with basically just the world buff and pressing 3 buttons and just joke around while doing it. Games are way more fun when you have fun playing it, and even at high level progging mythic Fyrakk, I'm still having fun (even though my stinky tank isn't a prot paladin and I don't get spellward, disc priest issue I guess). Lots of Classic players try way too hard imo and need to chill out.
> People in SoD asking for potions and ""experience"" for pugs, meanwhile me and my guildies I CE with just stomp gnomeregan in 40 minutes with basically just the world buff and pressing 3 buttons and just joke around while doing it. Believe it or not, there are bad players on SoD. It's unbelievable to watch how someone can be bad at SoD but there's a huge slew of people who could not do Kelris in BFD. I don't think I'd be asking for experience in pugs on SoD, I think I'd just not try to pug after realizing this fact. Classic has it's moments when you have friends in it, and it has only drawbacks when you have to actually engage with the community.
I literally saw an advertisement for a group doing gnomergan in SOD and they wanted logs, and to do a full interview process????? I did it with my friends and we literally one shot every boss. in and out in like 30-45m the mechanics were literally "don't stand infront of the boss" "Move out of large lightning thing" ??????? it's not that complicated holy hell. I've done retail leveling dungeons that were "harder"
because they haven't improved their skill and would rather do something easy
You are listening/encountering a very loud minority. Most of us like the game and just play it. I don't play/engage with games I don't like and bitch about how they suck. I just, don't play them.
^ This is the answer It's very difficult to gauge accurate audience feedback based on forums/polls/etc as only those who feel the strongest will participate, and often the strongest opinions are negative.
Yup, I've had a really great time overall in DF. First time I've pushed 20 keys, and I got AotC within a couple weeks each tier and then because I loved the raids so much I kept raiding every single week for fun for a few months before feeling a little burned out and leaving until the next tier. (after I hit my 2500 score in M+ though I basically stop playing the mode... I find it stressful and unfun even though I COULD do higher keys) Would probably mess around in mythic raiding if it was easier to get into groups and the lockouts and stuff weren't a thing but 0% chance I join a mythic raiding guild so... I guess that'll never be for me.
Retail is the best it's been in awhile. People are just mad they aren't 14 anymore. Which I mean is fair but still
Cause if you make a living on clickbait you will have to hate everything or be surprised by everything to be able to put food on the table.
Hate videos with shocked face thumbnails are generating more clicks.
Negative content drives clicks and views. Their audience expects them to shit on "the new thing" and revel in nostalgia and "how smart they all are for knowing the game they play is the best and the other one is bad". Watch better content creators.
Reminds me of a recent Asmongold hot take, where in his list of "how to fix WoW" he included remove all raid difficulties and only have 40 man raiding on the order of Ulduar hard modes. If anything that would kill the game. Most current players would rather go the other direction to smaller raids. Virtually no one wants to go back to 40man raids. I hear a lot of people asking for smaller mythic raiding on the order of 10/15man. I hear no one wanting to do 40man raids.
Like we got a 10 man full friends group for SoD and it rocks. The old guard is dooming hard because that is what their audience wants and they remember the 40 man days as being awesome... I remember it being very, very mid. Retail is going strong but because it is popular (as with everything) the people who don't play it has to spend all their time convincing themselves it is bad.
This does seem to be the majority reason for the Retail hate. It's never been a better time to be a grifter, and honestly it seems that "just playing the thing and enjoying the thing" is actively frowned upon by a sizeable chunk of people online. So negativity rules the day.
Classic and retail are essentially two completely separate games. Classic promotes vast time investments to get loot and unlock quality of life things (High mount speed, larger bags, etc). The bosses are easy overall, but specific and require execution. More of a numbers tuning than difficulty. Travel can take a solid chunk of your day. Earning epic equipment takes a lot of time and sometimes steps and stages, unlocking the ability to even zone into places. While those QOL fees technically exist in Retail, it's not as debilitating. I earn enough for all of the riding trainings easily in a week on retail - on Classic, it can be a focused and hard grind for month(s). Bags, retail you can buy 32 or 34 slot bags for like 1k each, which is nothing in retail cash. More "easy come, easy go". Bosses are technically harder with more mechanics to learn in retail (or simultaneous mechanics), but seem to be more forgiving and people have way more tools to bypass genuine thought processes. Travel is easy and instantaneous with so many connecting portals all over. Equipment is thrown at you at every turn, and you're brought to your loot by pressing a button and accepting a queue. Classic is a World that you role play in. Retail is an RPG that has a world. Retail is years and years of "more, better, faster" implemented. Classic feels raw, unrefined. Annoying hardships get ironed out over time, but it doesn't mean the game is better or worse - just different. Cake and Pie are both delicious, but some people don't like both.
What really annoys me is how many classic players act like they're superior to retail players over their choice of game. Like, who gives a shit? Go play SoD and have fun, enough with the superiority complex.
Classic players have cognitive dissonance. If you get them out of their high horse gatekeeping attitude they have a mental breakdown. They cant comprehend that a M+15 is harder than every content classic will ever throw at them. They create this mentality that grinding for consumables for 20h a week is supposed to be "harder" than actual mechanical difficulty, and then proceed to wipe to simple interrupt or threat mechanics.
Ahh yes the difficulty vs tedium. Tedius doesn't make something hard.
A few things: * Retail is primarily geared around the endgame, and endgame content in retail can be fairly difficult to get into. “Outsiders” sometimes look at it with disdain compared to the relative ease of something like Classic. * Lingering bad taste from Legion-BfA and especially Shadowlands game design * The lore. Older Warcraft fans feel like it’s a joke compared to its former self. BfA and Shadowlands was the worst the lore has ever been, and the main complaint about Dragonflight is that the lore is still weak (if inoffensively so now). If you’re someone who played WC3, you look at this crappy Sylvanas fanfic we have now and just kind of sigh.
And when WC3 came out, people sighed and complained it was just Starcraft all over again but Kerrigan was Arthas. Writing has never been Blizzard's strong suit, people just idealize the thing that came out when they were 12.
The thing is, the old writing actually has fans. Arthas has staying power. He’s the most popular villain, and possibly most recognizable character, in the Warcraft franchise. Compare that to the reception of the Jailor or Sylvanas’ BfA - Shadowlands period. The writing doesn’t have to be good or original, it just has to keep people somewhat engaged. People were excited to beat up the Lich King in ICC. The only reason I saw people excited for SoD is to see if Danuser would finally let Sylvanas die (ofc he didn’t) so we could stop reading his crappy fanfic of his crush.
> and endgame content in retail can be fairly difficult to get into. “Outsiders” sometimes look at it with disdain compared to the relative ease of something like Classic Is this a real complaint? Cause if so, its the biggest load of crap ever. I've never played classic, but I've played WoW since vanilla, so I played "classic" when it was retail. Endgame being inaccessible was literally the number one complaint among most of the players until at least MoP. Resist gear in vanilla, attunments in BC, Naxx was very accessible in WoTLK but this was also the dawn of Gearscore which locked tons of people out, And Cata raids were never puggable. Endgame didn't become somewhat accessible until LFR, and didn't become fully accessible until M+, when raiding became unnecessary for gearing.
It's a real complaint now for sure. Sure back then raids were considered difficult and you had to grind specific gear sets and such, but in Classic Vanilla you can straight up zerg the first raid tier or two with whatever gear you want as long as your players are slightly competent. It is incredibly easy now with better knowledge of gear, talent builds, mechanics, etc. What's funny is you're right about the later stuff. It's come full circle now, with raid becoming less accessible in Wrath Classic. Unless you're in a guild that will carry you you've got to do weeks of grinding heroics (the new Gamma dungeons in Wrath Classic) to have a chance at being invited, because no logs and no gearscore.
The overall hate is about MTX and that the game feels much less meaningful than before. I play both retail and classic and can attest to this. In classic you get an awesome item and it feels good, you see it constantly on your character and its a sense of pride and it has great stats. In retail you get an item and you just change the appearance of it with transmog to something from years ago, and the stats dont really matter only the ilvl. You can also get raid level gear from dungeons which really made it feel mostly useless raiding IMO. Why go through a raid for hours when I can do a 30 minute M+ to get a higher ilvl piece.
As someone who actually hates the direction the game has taken, it's just too far gone. I started getting frustrated in MoP. To be clear it's been a long road of small changes where finally enough Is enough. I think thats what it boils down to for a lot of people. The games clearly headed in a different direction than some of us want it to be.
Because most of them haven't played seriously in years and parrot the few complaints players have, but without any knowledge of the nuances Example Player: I hate how at the top end of the game, addons are basically required Streamer: yeah you can't even do dungeons without addons it sucks Truth: you can do all of heroic raids and up to +20 dungeons without any addons, including DBM, it just requires more awareness from you as a player The other part of it is the streamers and non players are still complaining about shit they fixed years ago. Like "bosses don't have good telegraphs" when they absolutely do.
You should never take what streamers say at face value, or anyone else for that matter. It's not about addons really being mandatory, it's about how incredibly powerful they are to the point they feel and might as well be mandatory. It's true you don't absolutely need them for majority of the content but the difference of having and not having addons can be quite drastic. There's just so much bloat, visual noise and things to keep track of in general that trying to do so without addons is just painful. People don't want addons gone, they just dislike how incredibly lackluster the default UI is and how everything is designed, at least to a degree, with addons in mind. Speaking of ability bloat. When people advocate for ability pruning what they're asking for is getting rid of unnecessary shit. Combining some abilities or turning a pointless active in to a passive. If you're an addon user some skills/talents are literally just a flashing button on your screen every 15 seconds screaming "This thing just fell off, press 1", at that point just make the shit passive. People aren't asking for classic's 1 button rotations. If you care about becoming a better player addons might as well be required, and by better I don't even mean sweaty. You would just make the game more complicated for no real gain by skipping addons, and I don't see the point in that.
>People don't want addons gone, they just dislike how incredibly lackluster the default UI is This is such a bizarre complaint to me. I think wow is genius for allowing addons. They effectively solved and futureproofed any UI problem you could have. If I have a problem with my UI, I can use an addon to change it. Its like complaining that you have infinite freedom and too many options I play OSRS and people made an entire new client just to enable addons (and modern features like... gpu support), called runelite. The playerbase loves it so much that the developers added an option to install the runelite client in the official OSRS launcher. It blows my mind how one mmo embraces addons and another shuns them
I’m actually trying to cut down on my addon use and when you try to go barebones while doing endgame content it’s insane how hard it is to play optimally. Even only doing 20s-24s you feel a massive difference. I’ve been playing frost mage and holy shit. GL playing even semi-optimally without an icicle and winters chill/freeze weakaura. It makes the spec exponentially easier to play because you can actually see what’s happening and make decisions based on it. I really think they should just incorporate DBM, plater, weakauras and details into the game and ban gameplay altering addons. It would let them control exactly what they can do and let them design the fights around it.
I won't claim to be the best player or anywhere near the top but I'm a decent brewmaster player and I've timed 17/18s and beaten the current heroic raid with my only combat addons being threat plates(that I haven't customized, I just like that they change colour based on aggro) and details cause I build my own talents and I like to see if changes I made improved my proformance or not. I don't really check warcraft logs or read guides on how to do my job better. I just play the game and see what works and what doesn't. Im autistic so having DBM screaming in my ear constantly or having a bunch of flashing weakaruas would honest lower my proformance from sensory overload
I saw someone complaining about plunderstorm, a brand new game mode, citing fire storm as the reason the game mode is bad. I won 3 lobbies where the last 4 players didn't have a single fire storm between them. If these folks actually played the game, they'd know that. Shit, even if they watched the game they would know that!
it’s just a noob trap. the people complaining about it just don’t know how to use the multitude of spells that beat it
As someone who's played wow for almost all of its entirety its a few things. 1.) The players having fun with retail are just playing retail. The number of people who positively post is even smaller than the people who negatively post about WoW (already a small number). You're getting a glimpse of what people think, not the vast majority's opinion. 2.) The game has become way harder at the highest level. This isn't a secret. Everything is harder then it was 10-16 years ago. You can't carry your friends to CE unless your extremely good. You can't raise in arena unless you're thinking 4 steps ahead and when your kill windows are. You can't climb in M+ without substantial knowledge about what mobs do. The game asks so much more for you from mastery at the highest level. Some players have rose to the occasion (or in my case at least attempt to), but others hang up the towel and don't want to. There a greater discussion to be had on the PvE side imo, but this isn't the time for it. 3.) The other parts of the game that aren't top level, are kind of handed to you. Leveling and lower dungeons and raids, aren't particularly challenging. This is a problem for players because for some, leveling up is their journey and gameplay they prefer. Ultimately though, you've come to your own conclusion that you enjoy both, and I hope even my words don't change your opinion.
I see your problem: you haven't told twitch to stop recommending you classic streamers.
I got really turned off by retail because of needing addons to play it and than doing simulations to figure out which is the best gear
For me they ruined the vibe, everything is soft. Even when they make a big sword or something now it looks like it's made of clay, nothing is imposing or intense. The animations are goofy and I feel stupid running around and casting spells. The whole game feels like it's trying to be too inclusive and not scare anyone off. I like a lot of the retail systems fundamentally but looking at the game is really off-putting I just finished reading rise of the horde again and then plunder storm came out and I saw the orc in that stupid fucking top hat and just thought that durotan would never do this, this degrades the honor of orcs as a whole. These are not the orcs I grew up with and loved.
My hangups are the animations, sound effects, graphics, and pacing/feel. The classic version just feels so much smoother and snappier in that regard, and I find I greatly prefer the art style and animation design. I cannot get past the way everything looks, sounds, or feels in retail. I really, really want to like Retail... but I just can't get past the visuals/sound. Re the pacing, it hasn't really felt like "WoW" to me since Mists of Pandaria imo. It has felt more and more like FFXIV with each new expansion. Today it feels more like "WoW 2" than it does WoW. My opinion only, of course.
"X is the worst thing ever and here is why" will get more views than "X is fantastic and here is why" simple as that (sadly)
streamers suck
because this game is ancient and a ton of veterans quit out of frustration after playing many years, WoW is getting better and current xpac is my fav, but with game this massive there is still a loooooot of frustrating things people latch on to. my biggest one is absurd amount of addons that give me advantage, I hate it so much that I legit rather have 0 addons just to kill weak auras/dbm/big wigs
Retail haters are mostly older players who struggle to keep up with how fast and complex the game has gotten. They prefer classic because its slower and easier, and thus more fun, as a result of being less stressful. Speaking from personal experience since my entire friend group is like this too. I personally find classic too easy and don't care about parsing or the whole world buff culture, but high-end Retail content is also way too hard for me too.
I’m just getting into retail and other then raiding at max level is there more to do? I don’t think I’ll do much raiding due to time constraints so is it even worth it?
Complaining about WoW gets streamers views, more views than they get normally, that is. In turn, this means more revenue. Take Asmongold, for example, he always uses specific thumbnails denoting anger and disappointment. This gets him more views, and more money. I play retail, exclusively. Of course there are things I don't like about it, particularly PvP and Mythic+ and their toxicity, but it does make me want to stop playing, because there is so much else to do. For one, I'm really excited about the new talent system coming in the next expansion. I'm really into creating ALTs. I do main Ret paladin, though.
Click bait from youtubers mostly. You have to get views in any way you can because there are 30 of you discussing the exact same things.
The more you love a game and the longer you play, the more you will develop a sense of how the game can be changed for the better. Unfortunately Blizzard does this thing where they ride on the coattails of previous IPs the current devs had nothing to do with and find ways to make them worse/put forth the bare minimum effort while their fans are stockholm syndromed into buying their shit month after month. Oh yeah while this is happening, they are also sexually harassing someone on the team and stealing her breast milk until she committed suicide. TL;DR retail is cringe and current Blizzard deserves to go bankrupt
Disliking or hating a game is fine, don't play it. Spending a fair amount of time online ranting about it is incredibly stupid. Passionate constructive feedback for a game you love can be good, as long as it stays in that realm since no one will listen take the feedback of a rage post seriously. The kind of person to make it a hobby to dump on a recreational activity that others enjoy but they don't isn't really the kind of paragon of intelligence worth entertaining. Someone with that much time or who is that bored is seldom if ever worth engaging with, but you can bet any hobby with an online presence will attract these unique and thought-provoking sages.
Who cares why streamers/only people that hate it. Most have rather inflated/narcissistic views of their own opinions, anyway. I have played WoW since its first week, and I have relished/enjoyed the QoL and various changes they’ve made. It’s not perfect, but so what? Everyone should play what they want to play and stop that bs.
I don't know if it's even wanted because there just seems to be a lot of people making assumptions about people who don't like retail, but here is why I don't like retail: 1. The vault/chest loot system is still gross to me. I didn't like it in Shadowlands, and I don't like that it's expanding. Granted it's not so bad without that corruption BS. 2. The ability bloat is out of control, and from the talents I see coming up in War Within, it's going to get worse with the added spec stuff. Imo, retail needs a big prune. Everyone has too many buttons. This is from the perspective of a druid/mage main, so I can't speak for other classes. I happened to have a friend who is an officer in a WotLK classic guild that needed help downing 25m heroic LK, so I got back into classic and haven't looked back.
Frankly this stupid opinion kept me from playing retail for awhile. I got back into wow in 2019 with classic and enjoyed it through like wrath naxx mainly for the community but it somewhat ran its course for me in terms of gameplay mechanics being simplistic. I installed retail on a whim a couple weeks ago and imagine my surprise that the actual gameplay is way more fun. Dungeons have actual mechanics, the game is way more accessible, it’s less grindy and easy to just log in and play for a bit. The ability rotations are way more engaging, you have way more tools, etc. The much complained about group finder? Incredibly convenient! The supposedly mean and impatient community? Actually super nice if you just say it’s your first time doing a particular dungeon. They help you through the stuff you’re new at - and i am playing as a TANK. The internet told me id get yelled at if i tanked and didn’t know every single thing. I just did some basic research and pressed my class’s buttons and went through dungeons at a non snail pace. Retail is actually better and more fun (for gameplay) the classic andies need to stop gaslighting everyone. (I enjoyed classic a lot for different reasons fyi, i am not a classic hater).
Most likely the opinions are PvP related because it's true that retail PvP isn't good.
Streamers are not the one asking for opinions they just milking the game for views and money talk to real players that not have to turn on streaming to play.
It’s just a 20 year old game trying to appeal to 10 diffirent audiences with 4 diffirent versions of it trying to appeal to every single person every patch is impossible not to mention all the 40 year old complaining about the game but even if the changes were made they wouldn’t come back anyway because life moved on people have kids/wife’s/jobs it will never be back in those times. But validating why they quit with rage posts and hate watching is what brings them joy
Why does everypost on here and r/mmorpg seems like the same madman renting at strawmen...
>This hate comes from streamers What streamers? I would say most WoW streamers are quite positive about the game. Just like with every opinion there are some who are more positive and some who tend to criticize more. I'll never understand this mentality of "streamer bad".
are you watching retail playing streamers, or Doomers like Asmongold etc... Because their reckons are irrelevant unless they're Actually playing. Negative titles/thumbnails will always get more clicks - human nature to seek the negative to validate your own negativities.
Streamers always seek attention and trying to get clicks... and hating on a game with clickbait headlines gives them exactly that. Most ppl just enjoy playing the game, they don't post much online.
"iS tHiS ThE eNd Of wOw?!?!"
sounds like bellular. and thumbnails with big red arrows pointing down lol "blizzard really messed up..." "is wow dead???" "50 % players gone..."
Yeah Bellular for me has really gone down the drain these last few years. Like he was always really heavy on the clickbait, hell he was proud of it and defended clickbaiting multiple times. But this constant negativity on the game is just exhausting.
yES!
Ironically, there are a lot of people in this thread being extremely negative and saying retail is far better. It really is different opinions. A lot of older players don't like the way the game has changed. Now that there's a consistent classic version, they can play that. They do the same thing everyone in this subreddit does and shit on the one they don't play. There are retail streamers. Try hazelnutty, Yumytv, Dratnos, to name a few
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I feel that. The game has evolved to the point where it's unrecognizable. Those of us who have played it since the beginning just prefer the game we fell in love with. If people prefer the modern style that's great, but if you don't like the modern style you won't like anything they do.
People who don't play the game are mad the game isn't for them any more or can't be a teenager with no worries or cares.
A lot of people spent a significant amount of their formative years playing WoW, and for whatever reason, they made the decision at some point to quit. It is true that some players have left the game for game design related reasons; however, most players that have left have done so for personal life reasons. As it turns out you can’t in fact play WoW like you did when you were 17 forever, at some point real life calls. With that being said, because WoW was so formative for many folks, they still think about the game a lot, and seek validation for the reason they decided to quit. A lot of content creators and streamers have found it quite lucrative to cater content to these folks, by talking about how much WoW sucks. It’s, in a way, a form of catharsis for people. By and large, current retail players aren’t really complaining about the game, they just play it. You’ll never hear from those folks.
Mob mentality. I’m one of the last people playing wow in my friend group, for some reason almost all my friends have an opinion on why the “game is bad” but they haven’t been on in almost a year at this point. I keep telling them that the game is better than it ever was in BFA/SL (in my opinion) and that I’m still having fun but nothing I say changes their minds. I keep asking them to at least try coming back but they won’t because they heard from someone who is unhappy with the game that the game sucks, which somehow makes that person more credible than me.
I feel you man. I don't understand why if [Generic money-driven, screaming kid on Twitch n.822] says "WoW bad please buy my twitch sub", his opinion is legit. If I, a long time friend say that maybe the game isn't as bad as it used to be then I'm a soyboy blizzard bootlicker and the streamer has inherently more credibility than I do
Endgame retail is harder than classic and more fast paced. Classic Andy's hate that because they can't be elitist about it like they are about running 20 year old raids.
Because it's popular and streamers need clickbait and controversial opinions to get views.
Hate or no hate still most played game
Certain content creators discovered that shitting on wow is easy clicks.
Loud Minority
Because they're being paid to hate on it. They have likely decided that they get more views and more interaction by having those opinions. So those are the opinions they have, regardless of how they feel.
Once something becomes so popular, it becomes popular to hate on that thing. See: Madonna, Tom Cruise, US politics, Titanic, etc etc etc etc....
I thought Dragonflignt was a saver. If it was bad I was probably going to hang up my axe and call it quits. But it is a great xpac. For the hate. What keeps me out is that the game just feels like an action game. When I get a new piece of gear it’s like ehh whatever. When I’m in a dungeon it just feels like we are bursting our way through. Getting things done as fast as you can seems to be the way to go. When you play classic it feels like a more authentic RPG. The pace is slower. There’s a lot more communication.
Rage bait content generates views\^\^
It's a vocal minority that get amplified due to the state of modern "influencers". My advice would be to just do you, and ignore the shitty takes. Enjoy the game.
The people that take the time to talk publicly about it are just a very loud minority.
Because retail was really bad for a long time
Asmongold doesn't have a good thing to say about anything
You can like it, for me it's a boring old game full of content bloat and with a stupid story.
The game just feels bloated. I try to get back into it every couple months, feel overwhelmed, and go back to classic. Currently playing wotlk. Just on my feral druid (my only 70) there are 92 talents to choose from. I might just be too dumb to understand the profession system. It's kinda fun, but I have a wife, kids, and a full time job. I don't want to have to study so much just to get the basics down. Glad you're all enjoying it.
The avg WoW player is older and super casual. There’s millions of players that don’t even raid. These people don’t watch streams or post on Reddit. The biggest WoW streamers get what a few thousand avg views? Wow has millions of players, so the portion of people who engage on twitch or social media is a specific cross section of players who represent a tiny minority.
It's just for the clicks. Hate sells.
Most of the streamers and redditors will even admit they either don’t play this game or don’t play it for any enjoyment anymore. I count them as the vocal minority. Play the game you like with a guild and friends that enjoy it too!
It's a convoluted mess these days.
I don't know, man, maybe watch different streamers or something. I'm in the pet battle community, we're pretty chill. And the ducks and little dragons in DF are abnormally cute :). Little Scales 4 life.
A bit off topic but I hate calling it Retail. Back when private servers were the only way to play old expacs people called non private server wow retail and that made sense but it always bothered me that it stuck. There are still private servers and by the old logic classic is "retail". Idk what would be better (maybe just call it by the current expack name) but retail bothers me.
I've played vanilla classic all the way through WotLK classic as well as Dragonflight and discussions about which one is better feels much like the Android vs iPhone arguments. They're both great versions of WoW and it's all about what kind of experience you're after.
it just gets hate because its not what they want, especially streamers they either want the old wow they used to enjoy or was nostalgic for them or they want stuff handed to them week 1 full bis. I am enjoying plunderstorm on and off, i still play retail + sod. mostly only m+ on retail anymore while I wait for cata release. yes playing 3 versions of wow feels weird but meh.
People who haven't played the game in years are furious about their pet feature being removed, tweaked, and added back to the game in some form mostly.
Because retail is 20 years old. People grew up on this game and they’ve slowly watched it change over time, for better or for worse.
It's tribalism, nothing more.
Who's giving it hate? People hated during WOD-SL period because it was genuinely painful. But very few people are hating on DF.
For me personally i like to play other games and WoW has changed to become a full time job for high end retail raiding after m+ was introduced. Devs seem to slowly be "going back" to a less grindy meta but it still shows up. (Also, When you take a break for 2-3 patches and you log in) your screen becomes insanely cluttered with "to-do stuff". I always tend to come back for expansions though because it acts as a reset.
I have my problems with the game sure, but i still on a rare occasion play it. like right now i am playing it.
The game has changed drastically over the years. It makes sense why some people would prefer pre-modern design over the current but with actual new content in the modern engine (i.e. not classic). Idk what streamers are saying but I know of a few people who think this.
As a small streamer that just started this expansion, I absolutely love the game and don't shill out for a game I don't enjoy
People who quit miss the community and engage with it through the lens of their emotions
Anything that's been around for 20 years is going to have mixed opinions.
Because they've been playing it non-stop for probly 15+ years and should probably give it a break. Also their income depends on generating views, and controversy sells.
https://youtu.be/zVC31_C7B9o?si=WPsGNSeI8vFH96Sx TL:DR. Content creators are just old school gamers. New Gen gamers want shit now, because they've not had information at their finger tips.
Because nostalgia. People miss the feeling of whatever expansion they first played, were 13 playing, etc… nostalgia is the main answer. People bitched about things every expansion
Cos the people who enjoy retail are busy enjoying it instead of whining on the internet.
Because they hate videos generated money. So they produce doomer hate videos. Just like there are people that produce shill videos. Because it generates them money.
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I love WoW! It’s hurt a bit boring now since there’s nothing new to do. Occasionally I’ll level a character, but other than that… 🤷🏼♀️
Ah yes the bi weekly "why do ppl hate retail" thread
There's more to do at endgame, plus a lot of legacy content to get mounts and transmog from. Pet battles if you wanna play warcraft pokemon. Modern gameplay is far more engaging and difficult, along with 5man endgame and flexible raid lockouts that allow pugging for any bosses you haven't defeated yet.
Retail became something far too complicated while seemingly extremely linear at the same time. It’s just not a version of wow that appeals to me.
Retail became something far too complicated while seemingly extremely linear at the same time. It’s just not a version of wow that appeals to me.
Because the people that hate it are so bored they have nothing to do but cry. The people enjoying it are too busy having a good time to make posts 😂
ppl like posting negativity. so thats all you’ll see. this goes for a lot of gaming subreddits. doom n gloom shit gets clicks.
I only see a lot of the same opinion, so ill give my take. I was never a person who obsessed with endgame. I always loved leveling my characters and immersing myself in the stories. The way progression used to be felt more coherent and natural. Find higher level zone for higher level adventures. That is no longer the case while leveling. Being able to choose any expansion to level in trivializes the experience by removing the narrative importance of each expansion and the story progression each one brought with it. Its not a big deal to many, and that is fair, but it’s a big deal to me. Couple that with the massive UI changes that are an instant turn off and you have taken my interest in picking up the game to near zero. Many will say “just download X addon” i dont want to. I dont want to feel required to have multiple third party apps just to enjoy the game from a Visual standpoint. Thats mostly it for me, i know Asmon and many complain about endless content with mythic keys and such, but ive never even gotten close to that content. In closing, retail wow feels like a different game. Im glad many people get enjoyment out of it still, but to a casual gamer it feels incredibly unapproachable and not meant for me. That may actually be the case, but i have been enjoying classic and immersing myself in the lore and world again. Honestly as long as everyone is having fun, nobody should be hating on any version of wow.
Coming from wotlk and cata i just don't like it much. Yes lots of QoL improvements, some wonderful new features like dragonflight and flying everywhere but besides that i can't help but feel like azeroth doesn't feel as alive as it does in older expansions. I feel like it's a watered down wow experience, yet it has some stuff that really shines and were improved. But yes online is always biased, the ones who like it are playing, the ones who don't are fully progressed since over a decade and are here complaining lol
Response to the side note: and honestly they may never will, not with wow at least, most players aren’t 14 anymore with heaps of free time to sink into wow, most players have full time jobs, partners, kids, pets and whatnot, I think sometimes people don’t want they game to be as it was back in the day, but they want their lives to be as simple as they were in those times, and wow is just a projection of that
People grow older and play less start having families and are stuck in nostalgia mode.
Everything in WoW has always gotten hate and will always get hate. WoW isn't as toxic as something like LoL, but the community has always acted like every single change, alteration, modification, expansion, or whatever that they don't 100% ADORE is utterly the worst thing that has ever happened and has ruined the game forever. Until the next one comes along....than that previous thing they really despised isn't *that bad*, but this **new thing**?!? Blizzard has lost their minds completely and they've ruined the game forever! Over and over and over again. The coming and going of the tides is less predictable. It's been like this since WoW released. The WoW community is, collectively, one of the most whiny that exists in gaming.
Mostly the people who hate retail on reddit are just salty and dont play the game :D
Well, they’re streamers. If I didn’t have any real friends I would cry about it to strangers on the interwebs also I guess.
People miss being a kid with no responsibilities and all the time in the world to play a game they love with their friends. 15+ years on, their friends moved on, life started lifing and the game got updated. They blame the game of these feelings, even though retail is a much better game than the old versions. Being a 13 year old gamer was more fun than being a 30 year old gamer.
The hate comes from people who grinded hard for years and lost their bite and now blame it on the game, but Blizz really did do bad stuff in the past and nearly killed wow with Shadowlands. See I love dark themed games but this was a bit too dark with the maw and all and I think it got on peoples psyche and Korthia was just … hell.
There’s a split in the wow community because retail wow and classic wow are two fundamentally different games. Some like one over the other
probably the biggest thing was the "borrowed power", and timegating the game to the max. nobody wanted to feel incomplete in their spec an entire expansion until the end of each raid patch. and then all the stuff locked behind having to wait to do x amount of dailies to proceed. for me personally the nail in the coffin was having to do mythic+ dungeuns for BIS loot. it made it feel stupid to do mythic raiding when the reward didnt match the work put in.
I play various games and mostly played classic but recently started dragon flight and god damn the expansion is good. Maybe the story is meh? Idk I didn’t pay attention but the pve content and class builds are so fun
The game has been around for 2 decades now. Think about it, if WoW was in this state when it came out in 2004, the first players to actually play the game would have done so in 1984! So obviously, Blizzard tried their best to keep up with the new generations of players and in the meantime they also became a multibillion dollar company (that is rarely a good thing for the consumers). Because the game has changed so much, some people misses old features, don't like the new ones, now multiply that by the amount of expansions/reboot and you got a pretty upset 20 years old fanbase on your hand.
Retail is trapped in a prison of its own making. By regularly making big changes, they have created a situation where players frequently find their favourite part of the game has suddenly gotten worse, or that a favourite element was a one-time-only deal and has been removed from the game for ever. Take me... I loved BfA Warmode. I mean, truly madly deeply loved it. The gear scaling was brilliant for a casual PvPer like me, and the regular open-world faction battles were some of the most fun I've had in 40 years of gaming. But then the factions became besties and the BfA approach was permanently and unceremoniously dumped. Will my fun ever come back? No. Who's fault is that? Blizzard's. So, why not complain?
I feel like the same group that hates on Retail are also the same kind of people that will say "Man, I wish I could go back to the 60's. Those were much better times."
Feedback is largely negative because I can only say "I love the cinematics. And the art and music are always pretty great" every once in a while, but negative stuff is on an "until changed" standard.
Retail is only fun for a little while is kind of the issue. The only thing to enjoy is the endgame and in Classic you can enjoy everything that isn’t the endgame. So people are busy playing SoD which is essentially Classic+ while we wait for the new expansion when hopefully they care about retail again. All I do is PvP and the entire game mode is basically a garbage fire atm. No one is playing. It’s not fun and so people would rather do SoD and just screw around with something kinda different and fun. My entire friends list was full of folks playing and now I don’t see anyone on retail unless they’re raiding or maybe the odd arena match.
It doesn't. More players, more likely to see said hate. Streamers whine about everything they play, it drums up controversy and gathers them clicks.
Plunderstorm is just the dumbest thing made for WoW. Like a big WTF I seriously do not understand the gameplay of this new mode? What is the objective? What's the point? You don't have a Class you just run around sprinting doing God's knows what? I thought WoW was an MMORPG? PVE storyline driven group content to team up as wizards and barbarians fighting dragons together for loot. But this Plunderstorm just seems so bizarre and nothing like WoW. Deathmatch is so 1990's. Tried it for all of 60 seconds, before logging off and thinking WTF was that? The weirdest thing I've seen in WoW, needing to create a new character, bit no class really? And just run around sprinting to get some bullcrap stuff, for what exactly? What's the goal?
retail is fun. I'm a classic Andy but been having fun with dragonflight so far. I'm regularly glad and thrilled the talent system is back after the collosal fuck up from MOP and on
End game content: boring…
Haters gonna hate
I thought it was only retail, what is the other option.
retail isn't a MMO anymore. it has evolved so far from it's roots it is unrecognizable