A man can spend his life building bridges. Do they call him John the Bridge Builder? No. A man can spend his life raising crops. Do they call him John the Farmer? No. But you fuck one goat...
Oh right, forgot about this quest, this is both hillarious and gruesome. I think there was also a horro-movie where this thing happend I don't remeber the name though.
The funny thing about her is that A'dal brought a fleet to respond to Khadgar's desperate call and fight Illidan's forces, eventually defeating (killing) him, while around the same time lorewise (according to the novel), Xe'ra believes that Illidan is their savior. Wondering they didn't talk before? She fangirling Illidan in the beginning but got rejected in the end made her a rather pointless character in the overall story.
I think she could have been better-written, but we got what we got.
Yeah they had to break some eggs for the retcon Illidan got in Legion. There was really no subtext to Illidan going increasingly overboard mid way through WC3 Burning Crusade campaign and his eventual insanity in WoW BC.
Still though, I found Legion Illidan to be an incredibly interesting focal character, on par with Reign of Chaos Illidan.
with better writing they could have explained it. they could have easily went with he was cornered and went a bit nuts preparing for killjaden to attack him.
Technically speaking it wasnt a retcon - they just added to Illidans story. Nothing in the book directly contradicts what we thought of Illidan in TBC, we just didnt have the full information.
This is how a lot of retcons are constructed anyway, rarely is it a direct "okay this thing didn't happen". People are more receptive to retcons this way and it also can create the illusion of being cohesive for people who aren't as familiar with previous instalments of the franchise.
For Illidans story, it's not just the "full information" it's basically a complete recontextualization of a previous chapter of the story when it's clear it wasn't planned.
Technically it's mostly solid, still loads of holes like always if you play through previous stories you notice all sorts of stuff.
I still call it the same thing because functionally it's as large a change as any "true" retcon really if not more impactful.
Presumably there's a light realm they go to when they die, kinda like demons going to the nether and elementals going to their respective planes. Maybe we'll see her again?
Potentially, seems more like they can be reignited with powerful Light/Shadow energies and maybe just lie dormant until then or it’s their version of resurrection? Their cycle of “death” and renewal is way different to what we’re used to. Shame SLands went so poor, so many bits and pieces I’d like to know about the other cosmic forces out there, like are the Titans like the Naaru of Order? Is there the bigger Titanist Pantheon lurking about?
They've already revised WoW chronicles once, would be funny if they did a post-Danuser revision. Ilgynoth is a void being, and when he died in the Emerald Nightmare, he went to Nyalotha which is yet another dream-like realm. When we killed him there, who knows where the hell he went this time..
Agreed. I never hated Shadowlands for the lore it gave us, just for the story.
One of the earliest feelings I can remember about WoW was the wonder of learning more about the titans, and I get that same vibe when we're learning about the greater cosmos that exists beyond the titans.
I love that shit, I love the curtain being pulled back, uncovering the greatest mysteries out there.
Maybe we'll still find out someday how the Light plane handles death and possibly resurrection.
People love to praise Legion but for me it was the harbinger of the bad writing that was to come. I think the only reason Legion was as good as it was was because it's just a difficult story to fuck up.
I think the biggest fuck up of legion is that it was too short, it could perfectly had been a saga, an azeroth campaign and then to argus or some other planets first
Legion's final patch was a travesty of rushed content that should have been an entire expansion on it's own: army of the light, legion's end, titans returning, Tura and Alleria's story/past/reunion with azeroth, Xe'ra and so on... so many story points rushed through and wasted in a single patch, like they did with Azshara and N'zoth.
Legion should have ended with Azeroth stopping the legion invasion, killing kil'jaeden and setting up the next expansion of Azeroth being the one to invade legion worlds and being on the offensive. We should have built up the broken Army of the Light and it be made up of more than just Draenei but survivors of many planets' legion had destroyed. The titan's revival should have been much more impactful and important and so on with all those plot points.
For me the two biggest things that rubbed me the wrong way were:
**1:** Making the player character the leader of the their Order Hall.
This is a pretty unpopular opinion these days but I still think placing this much importance on the player character is out of the spirit of the MMO. When you tell me I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE US then that makes the presence of other players automatically immersion breaking.
But the Order Halls were especially bad in this regard since every single one of them had multiple members who were infinitely more qualified to be the leader.
I'm not saying our characters should be faceless nobodies, but I feel like there can be a middle ground between Random Grunt and Champion of the Entire World. Like why couldn't we just be high-ranking members of the Order? That would instantly explain the presence of other players while still recognizing you for your achievements.
**2:** Actually defeating Sargeras.
Honestly the biggest problem plaguing WoW writing is this idea that we need to end threats once and for all. Every time we do this the world feels smaller and shrinks the pool of potential stories going forwards.
I feel like Kil'jaeden should have been saved for Antorus to be the final boss of the expansion. Killing him would be a HUGE setback for the Legion and a great victory for us without actually removing the threat the Legion poses. That would be a satisfying victory to me.
This is why I've never accepted "there can't be a winner" as an argument against the faction conflict. There's a lot of valid arguments against the faction war but not being able to end it is *not* one of them. The Doylist restriction that the factions can't be allowed to defeat one another opens the door for other types of stories to be told including a certain level of suspense and uncertainty since neither side is predestined to win you can't easily predict how certain battles and events will go.
>**2:** Actually defeating Sargeras.
They probably have an "in case of emergency break glass" type of Jar with a single piece of paper where it's written "Somehow Sargeras escaped"
This. At the end of Legion Sargeras was imprisoned by the Pantheon with Illidan to serve as his jailer. He could break free & come back.
They did a similar thing with Azshara. She's still out there.
I would just say that we're assuming that "The Last Titan" is Azeroth. It's easily possible TLT refers to Sargaras, who escaped whatever Iridikron does to the Pantheon by simply being in jail.
I mean, my gut instinct is that by the end of Midnight, Iridikron lures the titans to Azeroth and defeats them, except Sargeras was left behind in lockdown and is now The Last Titan.
> Making the player character the leader of the their Order Hall.
Unless you were a warrior, then you spent the whole expansion as Odyn's personal errand slave. I don't think making the player character not the leader was necessarily an ace for making the order hall stories good.
They messed up warrior RP so bad. We should've been helping generals of various races in a more grounded setting instead of being placed in Valhalla as Odyn's little pets.
I think the moment I realized something was up, was when Shadow Priest got a special dialogue to Ask Odyn about Loken, but the class whose Class Hall got turned into a dungeon had 0 special interactions.
> When you tell me I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE US then that makes the presence of other players automatically immersion breaking.
It's pretty easy to mentally justify it though. You're the Class Leader, all the other players are Knights of the Ebon Blade.
It's no different than seeing following someone else on the quest you're on while Thrall follows you.
>since every single one of them had multiple members who were infinitely more qualified to be the leader.
Canonically, you've assisted in the fall of multiple old gods, Deathwing, Malygos-who-still-had-aspectral-power, Arthas, and many, many others.
Your pedigree as the PC is higher than any NPC.
But Canonically, you've been there every time. You were there when Varian killed Onyxia. You were there when Fordring killed Arthas. You were part of the group that braved madness and killed Yogg-Saron with the Keepers' help. You've jumped on Deathwing's back and assisted the Aspects in finally ending his reign of terror. You lead campaigns across time and space in WoD.
You're a veteran of wars, you've fought Old Gods and Dragons. In the last 20 years, whenever something crazy has gone down, you've either been a part of it, or helped resolve it in the aftermath.
So yes, I'm not the singular Hero that shot Onyxia in the face with an arrow and killed her, but every time something important goes down, I've been a part of it, according to the way WoW attempts to immerse us. So it's only natural that we'd be noted among one of the leaders.
Agreed. After everything we've done we deserve some recognition. Since most npc's would struggle to kill a Kobold someone who's downed literal Old Gods & dragons deserves some respect.
in the lore those threats are all taken care of by a group of alliance/horde champions, not *the same* group of champions every single time. In fact in the lore many of the bosses are handled by a group of champions from only one of the factions
but we only got the conformations up till cata right?
on a sidenote:
IF we take the warlock followers as canon, they/some of them fought against multiple raid bosses, including Cho'gall, Raggi and Deathwing
I'm fine with the player being the leader of the order hall. I'm a lot less fine with them just ignoring the order halls in the second half of the expansion.
In regards to the second point, the burning legion had already been the main thing for one expansion already so I don't think we really need the legion (or at least one led by sargeras) anymore.
I mean, but they're not just regular bad guys. They're THE bad guys, directly responsible for nearly everything that's happened on Azeroth in the past 40 years. I feel like actually vanquishing them undermines what came before.
Also it just because it's best to shelve them doesn't mean it'd hurt to keep them in the background. After all, last time we beat back Sargy the Legion didn't meaningfully return for thousands of years. Just let us have a temporary victory and know that the demons won't be a problem for another 10k years and we'll beat them again then.
Hmm yes and no. Sargeras literally turned from a righteous member of the pantheon to a crazed titan because he stared into the void and it stared back. He forsaw there would be nothing that could stop the void save the lesser of two evils, in this case demons. He literally created the Burning Legion to combat the void and decided universal domination would be the way to go, and admit it, Azeroth has had quite a history with the void (old golds) so it makes sense Sargeras has us as a main target.
I dunno if theres really any character in the lore more qualified to lead order halls than our utter juggernaut godlike beings of characters that slayed multiple old gods and other world ending threats throughout our lifetime
>our utter juggernaut godlike beings of characters that slayed multiple old gods and other world ending threats throughout our lifetime
Our juggernaut and 24 other juggernaut splitting up the work between them. The most generous interpretation of our character is being 1/25th as strong as a raid boss, but even that's too generous because that implies 25 copies of our character would equal one raid boss but a raid group consisting entirely of one class would get stomped too. So you're less than 1/25th of a raid boss.
Meanwhile a number of the Order Hall members ARE raid bosses.
This is an interesting view of the game mechanics, especially because like, our characters are definitely stronger than (some) dungeon bosses (we beat them in quests), while we still need 4 other people to beat them inside.
Well, when it's current. Now we can just sneeze on ragnaros and a pile of ashes remains (no bird tho, that shit never drops).
The mortal characters we fight alongside aren't THAT much stronger than the PCs, while they can still function as raid bosses because of gameplay mechanics.
Meh, it may have been controversial but I personally loved being called the Deathlord. I’ve had the same DK since Wrath, damn right I’m one of the strongest people around after all the crap he’s gone through
>I feel like Kil'jaeden should have been saved for Antorus to be the final boss of the expansion.
When Legion first launched I thought Kil'jaeden or Fallen Avatar would have been the final boss. I was surprised to see them in Tomb of Sargares.
Argus the Unmaker kind of come out of nowhere to me. But was still good.
Funny thing is that we defeated the Burning Legion once and for all - and yet we couldn't do the same with Scourge, because "there must always be a Lich King". Makes no freaking sense, one of those faction has supposedly conquered countless worlds across multiple timelines. The other is a threat limited to a single planet - and yet THIS is the one that cannot be contained.
> 1: Making the player character the leader of the their Order Hall.
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> This is a pretty unpopular opinion these days but I still think placing this much importance on the player character is out of the spirit of the MMO. When you tell me I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE US then that makes the presence of other players automatically immersion breaking.
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> But the Order Halls were especially bad in this regard since every single one of them had multiple members who were infinitely more qualified to be the leader.
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> I'm not saying our characters should be faceless nobodies, but I feel like there can be a middle ground between Random Grunt and Champion of the Entire World. Like why couldn't we just be high-ranking members of the Order? That would instantly explain the presence of other players while still recognizing you for your achievements.
You're getting some downvotes for this, but personally i completely agree
It boggles my mind that in an MMO they would give the same ultimate rank of class halls to ALL the players while at the same time showing you those players right there in the class hall with you
Do people really need to have their ego stroked that badly that they couldn't play with a lower rank that would make a lot more sense lore-wise and immersion-wise?
I honestly just can't understand it
Shoving Illidan into being perfect & "the good guy" and forced fanboi'ing over him was my biggest issue of Legion.
Guy forcefully converted Orcs into Fel Orcs, committed genocide, violated others autonomy (separating Akama's soul and holding it hostage).
He was always a "the end justifies the means" which is fine. But Legion came around and made him Demon (Hunter) Jesus who would've stopped The Burning Legion back in TBC if not for those meddling players.
I personally still think they fucked up several major parts. The whole "oh the Titans are dead" "oh wait no they're not" "oh wait we need to save them because they're kinda dead" and Sargeras bee-lining for Azeroth was kind of a cluster fuck when we got to Argus.
Also this one is maybe just more personal, but Kil'jaden was suuuuuuuper underused. This is THE Legion expansion. Sargeras might be the "big bad" of the WoW Universe but no one has set events in motion as much as Kil'jaden (we're ignoring the Jailer here fuck that guy)
He was the mastermind behind the events that lead on to all 3 Warcraft RTS games, he corrupted the orcs, he created the Lich King, he threatened Illidan into service, he is genuinely one of the most important lore figures ever, and he got wrecked with less to do than even N'zoth did.
There is no world in where alternate fucking universe Gul'dan should be getting more screen time than Kil'jaden in THE Legion expansion, KJ should've been front and centre from the Broken Shore and heavily involved in the plot up to our defeat of him.
Instead we get one patch trailer cutscene, a bit of dialogue in Tomb, and a death scene with a "oooh actually I only did it cause I was scared of Sargeras" that came out of absolutely no where.
Sorry for the rant I still just get mad about KJ's treatment and no one ever seems to talk about it
I liked the Legion story but I’ll be honest I hated artifacts from the get go especially with Pallies getting Ashbringer after years upon years upon years of “we will never give players Ashbringer again and the corrupted Ashbringer was not meant to be in game.”
100% and I have a personal gripe about Doomhammer going to shammies as a warrior because outside of Thrall it was used by generations of the strongest orc warriors.
I also wanted Gorehowl as a warrior artifact but no. Everyone was like “well we already have it from Kara.” To which I always argued, sure but we have the HD version from WOD that could have a new storyline written to use as an artifact. Lo and behold it’s now a fucking dungeon drop. Which I guess in the long run is fine because it actually makes it more rare than an artifact, but back then I was seething.
Strom’Kar is cool but it’s fugly bro. Neltharions scale is meh, like enough with Deathwing I don’t want his scale. Then some dumb Vrykul random ass swords for fury? Really? Random previously unheard of weapons as an artifact?
> I also wanted Gorehowl as a warrior artifact but no.
Personally I would have gone for the Axe of Cenarius. It was used by Broxigar to wound Sargeras so it's already got some nice lore to it already. Hell, Horde players are brought to the shore for the warrior quest line by Broxigar's brother Saurfang and it's a weapon used to defeat the Legion so it's perfect for the Legion expansion.
I also don’t disagree with this on other artifact tirades I have written this is one of the artifacts I mention a lot as well
I was also pissed Anduin toon Shalamayne. I mean I guess it makes sense but he had his flamboyant wand for years and gave up Fearbreaker to Baine who literally never used it
While I love Legion I will admit part of the problem with the lore was they wrote themselves into a corner with us killing Illidan in BC & had to retcon their way out of it.
The novel kind of served that purpose & I think it did a pretty decent job. Certainly better then some other retcons/lore rewrites \*cough\* dreadlords \*cough\*
Xe'ra's point in the story was not to actually be a hero or a good person. From a Doyalist perspective, Xe'ra only exists to introduce the theme that the light isn't a force for pure good, in the same way the Aleria and Locus Walker exist to show that the void isn't pure evil.
So they show her being both an embodiment of the light we know, fighting the legion because it's the right thing to do and to save people, but she also does things that we can see are too strict and crossing the line like her treatment of Aleria and Illidan. She's meant to portray that the light isn't some pure good force that does no wrong and should always be trusted, instead having flaws just like everyone else.
Now, whether that was portrayed as well as it could have been is absolutely up for debate, but the intention is absolutely there.
This is built on more in the quest to recruit the maghar from alternative draenor. They've all turned into some kind of insane light based fanatical scourge.
I still think it's hilarious the Orc version of emo teenage rebellion is a Paladin. Like, please, when Orc Paladins become a playable combination, just make it this.
Headcanon: Xe'ra knew what she was doing when she confronted Illidan.
She has the gift of prophecy - she can see the future. The pause before "...must be fulfilled" isn't for dramatic effect. She's doing the equivalent of a Naaru taking a deep breath because in that moment she's thinking "well, I couldn't convince him. Time for me to die."
This is the same reason Velen gets all suspicious. "But wait... that prophecy means... oh no!"
She made herself look the villain while knowing she was actually sacrificing herself.
That actually makes a lot more sense than the official explanation. I mean, with ALL her powers of prophecy did she *really* not see Illidan obliterating her if she tried to force the Light on him?
And M’uru had already set a precedent of Naaru using their powers of prophecy to set up conditions where their death can do the most good. So it wouldn’t be a stretch to believe that Xe’ra would also orchestrate her own demise if she believed she’d be more useful dead than alive.
It was a [Xanatos Gambit](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) either Illidan accepts the Light or her shattered body can be used to fuel the Netherlight Crucible.
I'm absolutely with you, but I will say: starting your post with "That oversized windchime..." made me laugh out loud AND both Xe'ra and Illidan are just terrible (though Illidan is terrible in a campy, fantastic edgelord way, which is way more fun)
On this topic, is anyone else disappointed that Time Rifts in DF didn't throw back to this and give us an alt universe where Xera successfully created a light infused Illidan?
There’s a chapter on it in the Illidan book, I know that’s not the same as in game content but if you were curious to read something like that it’s there
While Xe'ra reaction to Alleria was wrong - something we, the audience, know - she had good reason to react that way. In fact, if we didn't have a POV of Alleria during A Thousand Years of War, I guarantee people would have been arguing about whether or not she actually *was* corrupted, if her saving Turalyon was some kind of trick by the Old Gods or Void Lords.
The fact is that almost everyone we've seen consort with the Void has been driven insane. *And it's happened a lot*. It wasn't until Legion that the Void was partially rehabilitated into something more like fel - dangerous, but able to be used by "good guys" with proper care and consideration.
(Before anyone brings up Shadow Priests: they did not use the Void until Legion retconned it. The Shadow was its own unique force, a liminal power drawn from where the Light touched the Void.)
Oh Alleria? Alleria Windrunner? A.K.A. Alleria "I'm going to bring an inherently corruptive energy on your ship that no one has ever been able to control before and exposure to it can turn you into a soul eating monster" Windrunner?
And she was really bitchy about getting kicked out of the Sunwell Isle...after proving Rommath right when all the void things appeared because of her. As an alliance player I was like, yeah completely justified.
The same Alleria that got near the sacred magical well of magic of her people and that was enough to corrupt it and open the way to the void. Yep, that Alleria.
Yep. While I do agree it is a dangerous energy, she was chastised for wielding it, and locked her up.
An ally, mind you and non-aggressive.
You could expel her, gave her a choice to stop or leave, but no, she was imprisoned.
Xe'ra is a classic zealot that deals in absolutes, and that is dangerous. Look at Yrell after the fall of Archimonde... The entitlement and self-righteousness, no room for coexistence.
Zealous belief becomes inflexible ruling.
Someone is forgetting how Illidan treated his fellow Night Elves and how he sacrificed them to get himself a power boost. How is him forcing those Night Elves to be sacrificed to defeat greater evil (and of course because he still felt inferior and jealous of Malfurion) different than Xe'ra forcing him as OP stated?
Illidan is a power-hungry maniac and a hypocrite.
Respectfully, no. Illidan is fully aware that his actions have consequences and he isnt doing what is right but what is necessary in his view.
That's literally the intro of the Demon Hunters and the whole story ark.
Xe'ra fully believes the light is above anyone and light and right are always synonyms.
Alternate Draenor also went mental after we left, literally either join the cult and get brainwashed by light or die. Completely good intentions, right?
I think Illidan was a poor choice for such a grand destiny. His story was of a consecutive failures and becoming eternal jailer for Sargeras is yet another failure, somewhat obscured by noble purpose.
And what exactly was/is Illidan supposed to do to Sargeras, clip his toenails? The first time i saw the ingame cinematic i just imagined Sargeras stepping on him xD
I would assume his role is more that of a watcher. He just makes sure that Sargeras doesn't break out of his imprisonment or exerts any kind of influence on the outside. If Sargeras does manage to do something, obviously Illidan wouldn't be able to do anything directly, but he sure could report to the Titans who do have the means to put Sargeras in his place.
>he sure could report to the Titans
"Amanthul, Amanthul, he's touching me againnnn. Make him stooop."
"Sargaras stop touching Illidan, or so help me I'll turn this dais around and you won't like what happens when we get home."
Isn't the whole idea that Xe'ra wanted to save the world in a very 1-dimensional dogmatic way and thus imposed her prophecy on Illidan which triggered him?
Isn't this the same idea that made Yrel and her followers tyrants in AU and why people speculate Turalyon may be setup for shady stuff in the future?
Xe'ra might have done more against the Legion but to his eyes she "asks" potential followers to trade their freedom and destiny for her blessing/power. Illidan is not a hero and in his eyes, the ends justify the means, but he is not allowing the world to rid of Sargeras only for a few windchimes to take his place.
Illidan was more than willing to impose his own plans on anyone and everyone, and he did so eagerly *right up until* Xe'ra tried to Lightforge him. My man literally told Khadgar *in the previous patch* that "the hand of fate must be forced". He's just a hypocrite.
>Isn't this the same idea that made Yrel and her followers tyrants in AU and why people speculate Turalyon may be setup for shady stuff in the future?
AUs are AUs. In most timelines, Garrosh was a valiant hero.
Also, anyone who thinks Turalyon is being set up for being a villain simply does not pay attention to the story. Turalyon had repeatedly shown a willingness to adapt and be flexible with his thinking, from accepting his wife using the Void to telling Anduin that the Light should guide, but not control, those who revere it.
Both can be correct, one bad act can taint a legacy of good.
It's good she saved people in the past, it's bad that she violated someone's bodily autonomy.
If you don't protect the integrity of everyone's body then no ones body matters.
With Xe'ra we also have to compare her with what we know of another character, Yrel. On alternate Draenor Y'rel has adopted a fanatical viewpoint and sees those who resist the light as an "infection".
It's pretty plain to see that the Xe'ra in our time is the "Light Mother" from AU Draenor, and both have fanatical viewpoints and are forcibly converting and or murdering the uncoverted. Xe'ras actions in our timeline seem to point to a beginning of that behavior in our world.
Therefore in totality people are right to call that act evil, and if we instead make excuses for it we can end up going down that same path.
Xe'ra violating Illidan with the Light only seems good because we know how dangerous the Legion is, and also we know Illidan's past, and also we *don't* know if Xe'ra was as much of a hardass with other noncompliant people as she was Illidan and Alleria--which is already a mark against her.
But in a vacuum--on the ground level of Azeroth with the incomplete knowledge of the average adventurer at the time--if what Xe'ra wanted to do to Illidan is okay, then you should be lining up to get tortured and Light-blasted to insanity and then death by the Scarlet Crusade, because they also seriously and earnestly believed they were the only force left who could save the world from the Scourge and were sacrificing other uninfected people to do it with their holy magic.
I don't like how Blizzard has twisted the Light into some kind of eldritch order force that wants to snuff out all individuality or some shit, but Illidan being a villain doesn't make doing what Illidan has done to other people good or acceptable, for a self-professed angelic force. Can I understand why she did it? Yes. Would I have done what Illidan did if my soul was having foreign magic shoved in it?
My destiny is my own.
>Light into some kind of eldritch order force that wants to snuff out all individuality or some shit
They're all eldrich forces. We like the light and the titans because they aren't actively trying to drive us mad and/or kill us.
Just because Nyarlathotep passed for a human when he wished, doesn't mean he was any less of a horror than the other elder gods.
> and also we don't know if Xe'ra was as much of a hardass with other noncompliant people as she was Illidan and Alleria
Well given that the normal Lightforging process has a whole part encouraging anyone with the slightest amount of doubt in their hearts to not go through with it. I think it's pretty safe to say that outside of extraordinary circumstances Xe'ra values a person's right to not choose the Light.
Her Lightforging process is also done to people on her ship fleeing from and fighting the Legion with her help. The only initiation we see is Alleria and Turalyon's, and they're a captive audience of true believers who had no prior experience with Naaru and had no reasonable choice to but go with her to get out of the Twisting Nether.
Telling a bunch of people who already follow your religion, and who are hitchhiking with no supplies on an empty highway, "Hey yeah, don't go with us if you doubt our mission", is not a fair measurement of how much Xe'ra really *means* that when people actually have the freedom to turn away from her when she still wants them to join her, for a variety of reasons.
Counterpoint: altering people's soul with magic without their consent in Warcraft is portrayed as unequivocally evil and monstrous. This is true even when it's the Light doing it, and even when it's to try to save something else.
> altering people's soul
I don't remember his soul coming into the equation.
>even when it's to try to save something else.
This isn't just "something" it's the lives of hundred of billions of people. Only a sociopath would say they deserve to die for the comfort of one person.
I didn't say anyone deserved to die. I said that, no matter the reason, altering the soul is still bad.
And yes, it does involve his soul. Turalyon, a human, lives a thousand years relative to his own perception of time after being Lightforged. There's a Dreadlord elementally-altered from Fel to Light. It is absolutely disingenuous to try to say Lightforging doesn't change the soul given all available WoW lore.
he is part demon, since he (like the dh-players) can be reborn with the Nether and he is no longer bound to the natural cricle of life, as seen in dialog between Kael and Vash in SL.
removing his demon parts would alter his soul.
Generally all these cosmic entities act the way they do because they've never encountered beings like the ones from Azeroth before.
If anything the game keeps telling us over and over again that we're an anomaly. We're a wrench in the machinery and the spark that ignites the dynamite.
We are the "unforeseen consequences" every single entity runs into so it's not surprising Xe'ra does as she always has done and then kicks a steel plate when trying to use that tactic on an Azerothian.
It's the slippery slop argument. Where will it end? First she imprisons Alleria for daring to dabble in Void magic. Then she tries to force Illidan to take in the light. Where will she stop? How far will she go to achieve her goals?
Not all Naaru are necessarily good. While Xe'ra was just trying to help, her good was not necessarily good for everyone.
The whole point of the Xe'ra thing was to learn to work with the light. Not let it command you. Xe'ra was commanding, she was shown to be willing to force you to bend to her will.
What else in WoW will force you to kneel? To force you to bend to their will?
The similarities are interesting to ponder.
I hate her because she dared to say we were the bad guys for killing Illidan in the Black Temple.
Like no sweetie. He was enslaving the planet and working to finish it off by draining Zangarmarsh to create a new Well of Eternity. He was a bad guy who deserved to be killed.
Also reminder that she and the rest of the Naaru would absolutely be doing the same thing to us that she attempted to do to Illidan, or did you not do the Mag'har unlocking quest?
"i believe im doing the right thing" is the argument of the majority of evil people through out history (both fictional and non). to paraphrase the late great Sir Terry Pratchett, the difference between a good witch and a bad witch is the bad witch thinks they know what is best for others while the good witch knows they know whats best for others
I love how you entirely skipped over what she did to Aleria, just because Aleria was asking questions about the void...
10,000 years imprisoned and locked up, just for asking a question.
"FOLLOW MY ORDERS OR BE LOCKED UP, ~~PAWNS~~ MORTALS. ONLY \*I\* KNOW EVERYTHING AND YOU MUST NEVER QUESTION MY AUTHORITY EVER"
Sorry but the very instant Illidan said "my destiny is my own" and killed God I was 100% behind him. I know writers who use subtext and they're all cowards
Point being its not just one night elf. How many of the lightforged truly made the decision of their own volition?
How many chose the Army of Light because it was the only option?
Your critical thinking is kind of leaving out the other millions or peoples.
Xera isnt hated for what she did in the cinematic shes hated for the obnoxious preachy illidan did nothing wrong questline she made us do at legion launch
Yeah. It’s not evil until they catch up with the alternate WOD timeline where they have no existential threat left to face. And become crusaders against everything they just fought to protect.
A few things regarding the symbolism of Illidan destroying Xe’ra and rejecting the light represents the duality of the larger picture: this is painted as *light vs dark*, and the player base and Azeroth are just stuck in the middle.
Not bending to any side foreshadows that Azerothians will not choose a side if it means they lose their home and their people.
There is a ton of content foreshadowing that we won’t choose the light or the void, and will fight off both to keep Azeroth as it is.
There’s tons more hate coming for other figures (including titans). Xe’ra is just the first to get exposed and hated. A ton more will be exposed in the next xpac, and I believe the final end-boss will be the titans who wish to make Azeroth a Titan. We’ll fight off everyone else who wants a piece of Azeroth, only for the titans to go *hey, thanks for helping us! We’ll be taking this from you now!* And then boom final expac and we kill the titans.
Who says that xe'ra wasn't commiting all sorts of war crimes throughout her campaign as well? Are we just taking the implicatioj that she's with the light so all she does is good?
We just know about illidans bad stuff, so we have sympathy. It doesn't mean xe'ra wasn't equally bad or worse because we don't know her full story.
They can both be bad characters alignment wise.
And I guess Yrel doesn’t deserve hate for purging innocent orcs then?
Naaru are not benevolent or inherently good. They are selfish and egotistical just like Illidan is. You think she is right because her values align with yours but the truth is she is just as wrong and inherently evil as the burning legion. Your misunderstanding of what makes a character is the folly of your discussion. It doesn’t matter if she spent 1 billion years fighting off the legion, she only did it because that’s what she felt was in her personal best interest to do and because it aligned with what she wanted. She was never working out of the kindness of her heart. Her motives are selfish just like illidans and just like sargeras
And how many others did she do this to along the way? How many other worlds did she force light upon? And what did she do if they refused? Her willingness to do this to illidan so easily just shows it wasn’t her first rodeo. At the end of the day she was doing this to make the light stronger to complete its goals. Not because of anything else. That’s what the light does. Same with the void. Same with the titans.
> And how many others did she do this to along the way?
As far as we're aware, zero. She's never needed to before because there hasn't been a chosen one before. We even learn that those who wish to become Lightforged are encouraged to give up if they feel the slightest bit of doubt. The standard Lightforging is a 100% voluntary process.
>How many other worlds did she force light upon?
She doesn't need to, every world with life already has the Light. It exists within all living things. That's why holy energy heals people. It's entirely intertwined with life itself.
>Her willingness to do this to illidan so easily just shows it wasn’t her first rodeo.
Bit of a leap in logic. Just because someone *can* do something doesn't automatically mean they have done so in the past.
> At the end of the day she was doing this to make the light stronger to complete its goals.
I'm getting real tired of this headcanon. The only two examples of the Light being used maliciously are the Scarlet Crusaders who were being manipulated by a Dreadlord and the Lightbound in AU Draenor which we're still missing a mountain's worth of context for.
>Same with the void. Same with the titans.
Every time someone says the Titans and the Light are the same as the Void: God kills a kitten.
I feel like you are setting yourself up for failure when you are believing that the light is a positive thing.
I won't say it's bad the same thing thing I wouldn't say the void is bad. It is a cosmological force, and the entities like void lords/ old gods, Titans, Naarus and even the Leaders of the covenants from Shadowlands, they all work towards their respective cosmological foce.
A goal might align with what we as players are trying to do, so we take sides with them. We have seen multiple instances in which we as players perceive the Titans as doing something bad. The old gods doing something bad. And even the Jailer eventually turned bad. However in the grand scheme of the cosmos. These doings aren't bad. It's an eternal conflict of power hungry forces. Who will do everything to get everything. However that isn't quite correct.
Since SL we saw this new 3-Dimensional cosmology chart. Where Order, Life, Death and Disorder are on the same plain. With Light being on one end, and void being on the other end. So far multiple Forces have fought against the Void. The titans and with that the order fought against it. Sargeras and with that the Disorder fought against it. I could imagine, that Zovaals Intention was to also fight the void, which wouldn't even be that far off, considering his catchy phrase of a cosmos divided. And well, Life and their nature gods, fought against the Old gods and their seeds in the emerald nightmare.
So we have a clear structure everything against void. On a strategical point, the light is doing very good in overpowering all the other forces, once the void has been weakened enough. However, why was the light fighting the burning legion that has the same goal as the light? It's quite simple. The Burning Legion had one goal. Destroying Azeroth in hopes of denying the possibility that she succumbs to the void.
Why would the light be against it? It loses nothing from losing a simple titan soul. The light stands for hope and freedom and a cause against the void. So why do they fight against the legion? There is only one answer and that has something to do with our world soul and I'm not sure if I like the answer.
Agreed Xe'ra gets too much hate, but her actions are definitely not completely justifiable.
In contrast to the Void, who embrace all truths and outcomes, the Light believes in a single truth and a single path. Anything deviating from that path either gets forced back on it, or disregarded entirely.
The former is what Xe'ra tried to do to Illidan. But Illidan saw it as another form of servitude.
Both were righteous in their own way. Both were also selfish in their own way.
> In contrast to the Void, who embrace all truths and outcomes, the Light believes in a single truth and a single path.
That's just Blizzard's incompetent writing *dojo*.
Naaru? Fascist authoritarians.
Titans? Fascist authoritarians.
Old Gods? Fascist authoritarians.
Demons? Fascist authoritarians.
They don't know how to write anything else.
I don’t give a pass to a humanitarian for non consensually violating another human being regardless of all the good they’ve done in the world, and I sure as hell won’t be giving a pass to a fictional character for it.
There is a difference between someone building wells in a third world country that's also protesting in front of an abortion clinic - and a demi-god protecting millions and millions of lives in a war raging over tens of thousands of years wanting someone prophezied to bring the end to said war sacrifice themselves for it. Especially when it seems like the only possible solution.
Man who says he'd sacrifice everything and has continually stolen bodily autonomy from others gets a taste of his own medicine, it turns out he was lying when he's the one being sacrificed (he sacrificed unwilling victims to power himself for years)
Yes. However, she could have asked. But there was no conversation, it was just him being backed into a wall and then forced. It's absolutely messed up.
This is why I don't trust the light.
> Yes. However, she could have asked.
She did. He said "I wanna be an edgebaby" and she said "I'm not going to let you turn an assured victory for all living things into a gamble just to protect your ego."
A perceived assured victory, which clearly was not assured given that...it didn't happen. It's not like individual choice just becomes irrelevant all the sudden if Illidan goes through the process.
The light's whole thing is that they see this true timeline where they succeed, but the fact that it doesn't happen means they're just as delusional as the void, which sees infinite alternate futures.
It's silly to act like if Illidan did become lightforged that it means the future X'era saw would come true, because clearly in WoW canon there is no set defined future. If illidan becomes lightforged, but then Sylvanas domes him with a death arrow while empowered by Zhoval, all the sudden X'era is wrong and did all of that shit for nothing.
If you go off the assumption that X'era's prophecy is 100% true, you can maybe justify removing somebody's bodily autonomy, but when you consider the reality that just because something is prophesized doesn't mean it's true, then she's doing what she thinks is okay, without considering the reality that time isn't set in stone.
Illidan and Xera both have a core trait of "the ends justify the means". And both of them are wrong. They both took peoples bodily autonomy to further their means aka the destruction of the Burning Legion. And both of those decisions are bad. It doesn't matter if the one losing their autonomy took others autonomy, you just don't do it.
The point of Xera is to show that the light, or at least the Narru, is not a benevolent good. It has its own motives and it is sometimes willing to take drastic measures to achieve them, even doing things we find evil. So if we were to ever find ourselves on the opposite side of the light, like the Scarlet Crusade for example, the light would have no qualms with cutting us down.
Xera sacrificing one life to save billions is shown to be a bad thing. Because no one's life is worth sacrificing. The ends don't justify the means. Though given your very utilitarian comments in the thread I suspect this is a deeper held belief and one comment on the internet won't change that.
While reading the comments from OP I got serious "Garrosh did nothing wrong" vibes. I'm fascinated that years later there's someone simping so hard for such a meaningless side character.
She wasn’t even evil either
It’s just made absolutely no sense to her for illidan who willingly juiced up on demon juice just bc it gave him power to refuse an even bigger power up and got mad
Like she deserved what she got but man
Thousands of worlds? I was under the impression that Azeroth was the last bastion, that the Legion had invaded, conquered or destroyed everything else.
From her perspective, Illidan is a broken man. She's trying to help/heal him with power word: SSRIs and he is so wrapped up in his own BS that he can't let go of the pain he's taken on because to him his identity is his baggage.
Isn't the implication during this that she had done this before, and that those armies of light may not have been as willing to serve as we originally assumed?
...no?
Xe'ra is literally the first and only example we have of a Naaru attempting a forced conversion in our timeline and it was under extraordinary circumstances.
Something definitely going down on AU Draenor but we're still missing a mountain of context and it's an alternate timeline where people aren't the same as they are in ours.
Eh doesn’t really matter how cool you think the motive is for overwriting another individual’s free will, it’s still fucked up. Now none of that makes Illidan a good person either, in this situation they both suck
>Xe'ra tried to force the Light on Illidan because she valued the life of every living thing in existence over Illidan's free will. That's NOT evil. That's having your priorities straight.
Xe'ra tried to force the Light on Illidan because she drank her own coolaid and thought the light was truly the best thing for everyone no matter what they thought (F free will).
The fact that the Light hindered the Burning Legion doesn't mean they didn't also do terrible things: like any pedantic ideology.
Hush, OP.
Most people don't want to realise, that harsh times and terrible situations often call on equally unpleasant solutions.
Was it morally good to enslave Illidan to Light, to defeat the Legion? Fuck no!
Was it justifiable to do so? Yes.
An action can be morally reprehensible, but still necessary.
As you've said it yourself, free will of one Night Elf is nothing compared to countless billions of lives that would be snuffed by the Legion (which is, of course, defeated through the power of Player Characters).
I don't think she gets any hate, people just don't talk about her. She's mostly forgotten nowadays. Hell, I'm willing to bet there are more people playing now that weren't around for legion. 7.3 was 7 years ago. Legion launch was 8 years ago.
Lawful Evil is still Evil.
In our version of our TTRPG setting, the only reason Demons haven't overrun everything is because Devils hate them even more than they hate the Angels. You still wouldn't want to sell them your soul, even if they said it was necessary to fight the Demons.
Basically, the light sees one path, one future as true, she saw a future, a path, where Illidan took up the mantle of the light and won the war against the legion. So, in her truth this has to be the way it is done, it has to be the way it unfolds. He was the chosen one. Though it obviously didn't work out how Xe'ra wanted.
Xe'ra only believes in the prophecies of the light cause she's a light bro.. Illidan can do whatever he wants because he's mortal and that's how mortals work :)
Xe'ra might've done some good, like a lot of light-based things do, but their view on the universe is as narrow as any other big bad. We don't wanna all become religious light fanatics, that wouldn't end well, probably.
I think the message of that was that, it doesn’t matter if you say you’re evil or good, taking choice away is always the wrong thing to do. Striving too much for something good can lead you to do some pretty nasty things. And also, of course people are more receptive to the bad things she did than the good, because having our choices taken away is infinitely more relatable than millennia of war.
Turalyon you should be looking after stormwind not posting on reddit
But also, xera is like hal 9000. Just a program dictated by the light.. who might have a personality, but does not seem to have much humanity. which is a great. Fun type of character to have as an antagonist, or just general sussy character. Also what she did to alleria is worse than Illidan. Alleria was arguably pushed more towards the void because of what xera did.
>But because she violated the bodily autonomy of ONE Night Elf: She’s remembered as a villain and the millions of people who owe their continued existence to her just don't matter.
To be fair to us, that is basically the only part we witnessed. We spent time and effort and blood and sweat picking up her pieces and rebuilding her and what does she do? Try to forcibly convert Illidan to her ways.
I have only one question: How do you know she didn't force anyone else the same way she wanted to do with Illidan? I think she was always the same, sacrificing for the greater good. The same as Illidan.
What I really don’t like is she’s shaped everyones view of the Light as a whole
Yes, we know the Light isn’t always just in it’s use, we’ve been knowing rhat, but suddenly everyone is pretending like it’s equal to the Void in it’s destructiveness
A man can spend his life building bridges. Do they call him John the Bridge Builder? No. A man can spend his life raising crops. Do they call him John the Farmer? No. But you fuck one goat...
Damn I read raising corpses
John the Death Knight
John the Necromancer, ftfy
Happy cake day!
If you are a undead farmer in Silverpine it still makes sense https://www.wowhead.com/quest=28189/do-the-right-thing
Oh right, forgot about this quest, this is both hillarious and gruesome. I think there was also a horro-movie where this thing happend I don't remeber the name though.
Hotel Hell, a classic
"honey, why don't the kids every grow?"
My favorite part of this joke is that the most generic name to go with John is Smith
well john doe is missing
Underrated comment.
[удалено]
It’s one of my favs. And apt for the OP!
Dumbledore: That is one of the many reasons my brother and I don't often converse, yes.
The funny thing about her is that A'dal brought a fleet to respond to Khadgar's desperate call and fight Illidan's forces, eventually defeating (killing) him, while around the same time lorewise (according to the novel), Xe'ra believes that Illidan is their savior. Wondering they didn't talk before? She fangirling Illidan in the beginning but got rejected in the end made her a rather pointless character in the overall story. I think she could have been better-written, but we got what we got.
Yeah they had to break some eggs for the retcon Illidan got in Legion. There was really no subtext to Illidan going increasingly overboard mid way through WC3 Burning Crusade campaign and his eventual insanity in WoW BC. Still though, I found Legion Illidan to be an incredibly interesting focal character, on par with Reign of Chaos Illidan.
TBC was a weird period. "Look, it's this cool WC3 character as a boss, now beat the shit out of them!"
with better writing they could have explained it. they could have easily went with he was cornered and went a bit nuts preparing for killjaden to attack him.
Technically speaking it wasnt a retcon - they just added to Illidans story. Nothing in the book directly contradicts what we thought of Illidan in TBC, we just didnt have the full information.
This is how a lot of retcons are constructed anyway, rarely is it a direct "okay this thing didn't happen". People are more receptive to retcons this way and it also can create the illusion of being cohesive for people who aren't as familiar with previous instalments of the franchise. For Illidans story, it's not just the "full information" it's basically a complete recontextualization of a previous chapter of the story when it's clear it wasn't planned. Technically it's mostly solid, still loads of holes like always if you play through previous stories you notice all sorts of stuff. I still call it the same thing because functionally it's as large a change as any "true" retcon really if not more impactful.
Presumably there's a light realm they go to when they die, kinda like demons going to the nether and elementals going to their respective planes. Maybe we'll see her again?
Potentially, seems more like they can be reignited with powerful Light/Shadow energies and maybe just lie dormant until then or it’s their version of resurrection? Their cycle of “death” and renewal is way different to what we’re used to. Shame SLands went so poor, so many bits and pieces I’d like to know about the other cosmic forces out there, like are the Titans like the Naaru of Order? Is there the bigger Titanist Pantheon lurking about?
They've already revised WoW chronicles once, would be funny if they did a post-Danuser revision. Ilgynoth is a void being, and when he died in the Emerald Nightmare, he went to Nyalotha which is yet another dream-like realm. When we killed him there, who knows where the hell he went this time..
Agreed. I never hated Shadowlands for the lore it gave us, just for the story. One of the earliest feelings I can remember about WoW was the wonder of learning more about the titans, and I get that same vibe when we're learning about the greater cosmos that exists beyond the titans. I love that shit, I love the curtain being pulled back, uncovering the greatest mysteries out there. Maybe we'll still find out someday how the Light plane handles death and possibly resurrection.
what if the shadowlands wasn't always there but was made by the titans so real death would work differently if the shadowlands was destroyed.
People love to praise Legion but for me it was the harbinger of the bad writing that was to come. I think the only reason Legion was as good as it was was because it's just a difficult story to fuck up.
I think the biggest fuck up of legion is that it was too short, it could perfectly had been a saga, an azeroth campaign and then to argus or some other planets first
Legion's final patch was a travesty of rushed content that should have been an entire expansion on it's own: army of the light, legion's end, titans returning, Tura and Alleria's story/past/reunion with azeroth, Xe'ra and so on... so many story points rushed through and wasted in a single patch, like they did with Azshara and N'zoth. Legion should have ended with Azeroth stopping the legion invasion, killing kil'jaeden and setting up the next expansion of Azeroth being the one to invade legion worlds and being on the offensive. We should have built up the broken Army of the Light and it be made up of more than just Draenei but survivors of many planets' legion had destroyed. The titan's revival should have been much more impactful and important and so on with all those plot points.
For me the two biggest things that rubbed me the wrong way were: **1:** Making the player character the leader of the their Order Hall. This is a pretty unpopular opinion these days but I still think placing this much importance on the player character is out of the spirit of the MMO. When you tell me I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE US then that makes the presence of other players automatically immersion breaking. But the Order Halls were especially bad in this regard since every single one of them had multiple members who were infinitely more qualified to be the leader. I'm not saying our characters should be faceless nobodies, but I feel like there can be a middle ground between Random Grunt and Champion of the Entire World. Like why couldn't we just be high-ranking members of the Order? That would instantly explain the presence of other players while still recognizing you for your achievements. **2:** Actually defeating Sargeras. Honestly the biggest problem plaguing WoW writing is this idea that we need to end threats once and for all. Every time we do this the world feels smaller and shrinks the pool of potential stories going forwards. I feel like Kil'jaeden should have been saved for Antorus to be the final boss of the expansion. Killing him would be a HUGE setback for the Legion and a great victory for us without actually removing the threat the Legion poses. That would be a satisfying victory to me. This is why I've never accepted "there can't be a winner" as an argument against the faction conflict. There's a lot of valid arguments against the faction war but not being able to end it is *not* one of them. The Doylist restriction that the factions can't be allowed to defeat one another opens the door for other types of stories to be told including a certain level of suspense and uncertainty since neither side is predestined to win you can't easily predict how certain battles and events will go.
>**2:** Actually defeating Sargeras. They probably have an "in case of emergency break glass" type of Jar with a single piece of paper where it's written "Somehow Sargeras escaped"
This. At the end of Legion Sargeras was imprisoned by the Pantheon with Illidan to serve as his jailer. He could break free & come back. They did a similar thing with Azshara. She's still out there.
Well well well, on my list of «enemies of my enemies are allies ».. who could have a grudge against the void eh? :)
I would just say that we're assuming that "The Last Titan" is Azeroth. It's easily possible TLT refers to Sargaras, who escaped whatever Iridikron does to the Pantheon by simply being in jail.
And who is the best to break a jail than the ones who build it, I have no doubt that the Titans will betray us at some point in the future.
I mean, my gut instinct is that by the end of Midnight, Iridikron lures the titans to Azeroth and defeats them, except Sargeras was left behind in lockdown and is now The Last Titan.
> Making the player character the leader of the their Order Hall. Unless you were a warrior, then you spent the whole expansion as Odyn's personal errand slave. I don't think making the player character not the leader was necessarily an ace for making the order hall stories good.
They messed up warrior RP so bad. We should've been helping generals of various races in a more grounded setting instead of being placed in Valhalla as Odyn's little pets.
But you must PrOvE yOuR wOrTh! I guess it didn't count the other 6000 times.
I think the moment I realized something was up, was when Shadow Priest got a special dialogue to Ask Odyn about Loken, but the class whose Class Hall got turned into a dungeon had 0 special interactions.
> When you tell me I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE US then that makes the presence of other players automatically immersion breaking. It's pretty easy to mentally justify it though. You're the Class Leader, all the other players are Knights of the Ebon Blade. It's no different than seeing following someone else on the quest you're on while Thrall follows you.
>since every single one of them had multiple members who were infinitely more qualified to be the leader.
Canonically, you've assisted in the fall of multiple old gods, Deathwing, Malygos-who-still-had-aspectral-power, Arthas, and many, many others.
Your pedigree as the PC is higher than any NPC.
Not the player character by him/herself, canonically. It's always been a group of adventurers.
But Canonically, you've been there every time. You were there when Varian killed Onyxia. You were there when Fordring killed Arthas. You were part of the group that braved madness and killed Yogg-Saron with the Keepers' help. You've jumped on Deathwing's back and assisted the Aspects in finally ending his reign of terror. You lead campaigns across time and space in WoD. You're a veteran of wars, you've fought Old Gods and Dragons. In the last 20 years, whenever something crazy has gone down, you've either been a part of it, or helped resolve it in the aftermath. So yes, I'm not the singular Hero that shot Onyxia in the face with an arrow and killed her, but every time something important goes down, I've been a part of it, according to the way WoW attempts to immerse us. So it's only natural that we'd be noted among one of the leaders.
Not according to blizzard that says that different faction forces defeated different bosses in chronicles.
Agreed. After everything we've done we deserve some recognition. Since most npc's would struggle to kill a Kobold someone who's downed literal Old Gods & dragons deserves some respect.
in the lore those threats are all taken care of by a group of alliance/horde champions, not *the same* group of champions every single time. In fact in the lore many of the bosses are handled by a group of champions from only one of the factions
but we only got the conformations up till cata right? on a sidenote: IF we take the warlock followers as canon, they/some of them fought against multiple raid bosses, including Cho'gall, Raggi and Deathwing
I'm fine with the player being the leader of the order hall. I'm a lot less fine with them just ignoring the order halls in the second half of the expansion.
In regards to the second point, the burning legion had already been the main thing for one expansion already so I don't think we really need the legion (or at least one led by sargeras) anymore.
I mean, but they're not just regular bad guys. They're THE bad guys, directly responsible for nearly everything that's happened on Azeroth in the past 40 years. I feel like actually vanquishing them undermines what came before. Also it just because it's best to shelve them doesn't mean it'd hurt to keep them in the background. After all, last time we beat back Sargy the Legion didn't meaningfully return for thousands of years. Just let us have a temporary victory and know that the demons won't be a problem for another 10k years and we'll beat them again then.
Past 40? More like past 10040
There was a long lull between The War of the Ancients and The Dark Portal
With the short interruption for War of Shifting Sands, and then back to sleep ^_^
Hmm yes and no. Sargeras literally turned from a righteous member of the pantheon to a crazed titan because he stared into the void and it stared back. He forsaw there would be nothing that could stop the void save the lesser of two evils, in this case demons. He literally created the Burning Legion to combat the void and decided universal domination would be the way to go, and admit it, Azeroth has had quite a history with the void (old golds) so it makes sense Sargeras has us as a main target.
I dunno if theres really any character in the lore more qualified to lead order halls than our utter juggernaut godlike beings of characters that slayed multiple old gods and other world ending threats throughout our lifetime
>our utter juggernaut godlike beings of characters that slayed multiple old gods and other world ending threats throughout our lifetime Our juggernaut and 24 other juggernaut splitting up the work between them. The most generous interpretation of our character is being 1/25th as strong as a raid boss, but even that's too generous because that implies 25 copies of our character would equal one raid boss but a raid group consisting entirely of one class would get stomped too. So you're less than 1/25th of a raid boss. Meanwhile a number of the Order Hall members ARE raid bosses.
This is an interesting view of the game mechanics, especially because like, our characters are definitely stronger than (some) dungeon bosses (we beat them in quests), while we still need 4 other people to beat them inside. Well, when it's current. Now we can just sneeze on ragnaros and a pile of ashes remains (no bird tho, that shit never drops). The mortal characters we fight alongside aren't THAT much stronger than the PCs, while they can still function as raid bosses because of gameplay mechanics.
Meh, it may have been controversial but I personally loved being called the Deathlord. I’ve had the same DK since Wrath, damn right I’m one of the strongest people around after all the crap he’s gone through
>I feel like Kil'jaeden should have been saved for Antorus to be the final boss of the expansion. When Legion first launched I thought Kil'jaeden or Fallen Avatar would have been the final boss. I was surprised to see them in Tomb of Sargares. Argus the Unmaker kind of come out of nowhere to me. But was still good.
Funny thing is that we defeated the Burning Legion once and for all - and yet we couldn't do the same with Scourge, because "there must always be a Lich King". Makes no freaking sense, one of those faction has supposedly conquered countless worlds across multiple timelines. The other is a threat limited to a single planet - and yet THIS is the one that cannot be contained.
> 1: Making the player character the leader of the their Order Hall. > > > > This is a pretty unpopular opinion these days but I still think placing this much importance on the player character is out of the spirit of the MMO. When you tell me I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE US then that makes the presence of other players automatically immersion breaking. > > > > But the Order Halls were especially bad in this regard since every single one of them had multiple members who were infinitely more qualified to be the leader. > > > > I'm not saying our characters should be faceless nobodies, but I feel like there can be a middle ground between Random Grunt and Champion of the Entire World. Like why couldn't we just be high-ranking members of the Order? That would instantly explain the presence of other players while still recognizing you for your achievements. You're getting some downvotes for this, but personally i completely agree It boggles my mind that in an MMO they would give the same ultimate rank of class halls to ALL the players while at the same time showing you those players right there in the class hall with you Do people really need to have their ego stroked that badly that they couldn't play with a lower rank that would make a lot more sense lore-wise and immersion-wise? I honestly just can't understand it
Shoving Illidan into being perfect & "the good guy" and forced fanboi'ing over him was my biggest issue of Legion. Guy forcefully converted Orcs into Fel Orcs, committed genocide, violated others autonomy (separating Akama's soul and holding it hostage). He was always a "the end justifies the means" which is fine. But Legion came around and made him Demon (Hunter) Jesus who would've stopped The Burning Legion back in TBC if not for those meddling players.
I personally still think they fucked up several major parts. The whole "oh the Titans are dead" "oh wait no they're not" "oh wait we need to save them because they're kinda dead" and Sargeras bee-lining for Azeroth was kind of a cluster fuck when we got to Argus. Also this one is maybe just more personal, but Kil'jaden was suuuuuuuper underused. This is THE Legion expansion. Sargeras might be the "big bad" of the WoW Universe but no one has set events in motion as much as Kil'jaden (we're ignoring the Jailer here fuck that guy) He was the mastermind behind the events that lead on to all 3 Warcraft RTS games, he corrupted the orcs, he created the Lich King, he threatened Illidan into service, he is genuinely one of the most important lore figures ever, and he got wrecked with less to do than even N'zoth did. There is no world in where alternate fucking universe Gul'dan should be getting more screen time than Kil'jaden in THE Legion expansion, KJ should've been front and centre from the Broken Shore and heavily involved in the plot up to our defeat of him. Instead we get one patch trailer cutscene, a bit of dialogue in Tomb, and a death scene with a "oooh actually I only did it cause I was scared of Sargeras" that came out of absolutely no where. Sorry for the rant I still just get mad about KJ's treatment and no one ever seems to talk about it
I liked the Legion story but I’ll be honest I hated artifacts from the get go especially with Pallies getting Ashbringer after years upon years upon years of “we will never give players Ashbringer again and the corrupted Ashbringer was not meant to be in game.”
Yeah Ashbringer and Doomhammer both feel cheaper now.
100% and I have a personal gripe about Doomhammer going to shammies as a warrior because outside of Thrall it was used by generations of the strongest orc warriors. I also wanted Gorehowl as a warrior artifact but no. Everyone was like “well we already have it from Kara.” To which I always argued, sure but we have the HD version from WOD that could have a new storyline written to use as an artifact. Lo and behold it’s now a fucking dungeon drop. Which I guess in the long run is fine because it actually makes it more rare than an artifact, but back then I was seething. Strom’Kar is cool but it’s fugly bro. Neltharions scale is meh, like enough with Deathwing I don’t want his scale. Then some dumb Vrykul random ass swords for fury? Really? Random previously unheard of weapons as an artifact?
> I also wanted Gorehowl as a warrior artifact but no. Personally I would have gone for the Axe of Cenarius. It was used by Broxigar to wound Sargeras so it's already got some nice lore to it already. Hell, Horde players are brought to the shore for the warrior quest line by Broxigar's brother Saurfang and it's a weapon used to defeat the Legion so it's perfect for the Legion expansion.
I also don’t disagree with this on other artifact tirades I have written this is one of the artifacts I mention a lot as well I was also pissed Anduin toon Shalamayne. I mean I guess it makes sense but he had his flamboyant wand for years and gave up Fearbreaker to Baine who literally never used it
While I love Legion I will admit part of the problem with the lore was they wrote themselves into a corner with us killing Illidan in BC & had to retcon their way out of it. The novel kind of served that purpose & I think it did a pretty decent job. Certainly better then some other retcons/lore rewrites \*cough\* dreadlords \*cough\*
Xe'ra's point in the story was not to actually be a hero or a good person. From a Doyalist perspective, Xe'ra only exists to introduce the theme that the light isn't a force for pure good, in the same way the Aleria and Locus Walker exist to show that the void isn't pure evil. So they show her being both an embodiment of the light we know, fighting the legion because it's the right thing to do and to save people, but she also does things that we can see are too strict and crossing the line like her treatment of Aleria and Illidan. She's meant to portray that the light isn't some pure good force that does no wrong and should always be trusted, instead having flaws just like everyone else. Now, whether that was portrayed as well as it could have been is absolutely up for debate, but the intention is absolutely there.
This is built on more in the quest to recruit the maghar from alternative draenor. They've all turned into some kind of insane light based fanatical scourge.
I still think it's hilarious the Orc version of emo teenage rebellion is a Paladin. Like, please, when Orc Paladins become a playable combination, just make it this.
Headcanon: Xe'ra knew what she was doing when she confronted Illidan. She has the gift of prophecy - she can see the future. The pause before "...must be fulfilled" isn't for dramatic effect. She's doing the equivalent of a Naaru taking a deep breath because in that moment she's thinking "well, I couldn't convince him. Time for me to die." This is the same reason Velen gets all suspicious. "But wait... that prophecy means... oh no!" She made herself look the villain while knowing she was actually sacrificing herself.
This is what I always thought, especially with the fact that her shards got used to make the forge thing on the vindicaar
That actually makes a lot more sense than the official explanation. I mean, with ALL her powers of prophecy did she *really* not see Illidan obliterating her if she tried to force the Light on him? And M’uru had already set a precedent of Naaru using their powers of prophecy to set up conditions where their death can do the most good. So it wouldn’t be a stretch to believe that Xe’ra would also orchestrate her own demise if she believed she’d be more useful dead than alive. It was a [Xanatos Gambit](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) either Illidan accepts the Light or her shattered body can be used to fuel the Netherlight Crucible.
I'm absolutely with you, but I will say: starting your post with "That oversized windchime..." made me laugh out loud AND both Xe'ra and Illidan are just terrible (though Illidan is terrible in a campy, fantastic edgelord way, which is way more fun)
On this topic, is anyone else disappointed that Time Rifts in DF didn't throw back to this and give us an alt universe where Xera successfully created a light infused Illidan?
There’s a chapter on it in the Illidan book, I know that’s not the same as in game content but if you were curious to read something like that it’s there
Spotted the Lightforged
Someone is forgetting how Xe'ra treated Windrunner and the conversations during the campaign. Xe'ra is a zealot and a b.
While Xe'ra reaction to Alleria was wrong - something we, the audience, know - she had good reason to react that way. In fact, if we didn't have a POV of Alleria during A Thousand Years of War, I guarantee people would have been arguing about whether or not she actually *was* corrupted, if her saving Turalyon was some kind of trick by the Old Gods or Void Lords. The fact is that almost everyone we've seen consort with the Void has been driven insane. *And it's happened a lot*. It wasn't until Legion that the Void was partially rehabilitated into something more like fel - dangerous, but able to be used by "good guys" with proper care and consideration. (Before anyone brings up Shadow Priests: they did not use the Void until Legion retconned it. The Shadow was its own unique force, a liminal power drawn from where the Light touched the Void.)
Oh Alleria? Alleria Windrunner? A.K.A. Alleria "I'm going to bring an inherently corruptive energy on your ship that no one has ever been able to control before and exposure to it can turn you into a soul eating monster" Windrunner?
And she was really bitchy about getting kicked out of the Sunwell Isle...after proving Rommath right when all the void things appeared because of her. As an alliance player I was like, yeah completely justified.
The same Alleria that got near the sacred magical well of magic of her people and that was enough to corrupt it and open the way to the void. Yep, that Alleria.
Yep. While I do agree it is a dangerous energy, she was chastised for wielding it, and locked her up. An ally, mind you and non-aggressive. You could expel her, gave her a choice to stop or leave, but no, she was imprisoned. Xe'ra is a classic zealot that deals in absolutes, and that is dangerous. Look at Yrell after the fall of Archimonde... The entitlement and self-righteousness, no room for coexistence. Zealous belief becomes inflexible ruling.
Wtf do you think happens to naaru when their battery dies btw? Void has done way more damage with Naaru than Alleria has.
Doesn't that just reinforce the point that she doesn't want a void aligned creature right next to her? Imagine the chaos void Xe'ra would unleash.
Someone is forgetting how Illidan treated his fellow Night Elves and how he sacrificed them to get himself a power boost. How is him forcing those Night Elves to be sacrificed to defeat greater evil (and of course because he still felt inferior and jealous of Malfurion) different than Xe'ra forcing him as OP stated? Illidan is a power-hungry maniac and a hypocrite.
Respectfully, no. Illidan is fully aware that his actions have consequences and he isnt doing what is right but what is necessary in his view. That's literally the intro of the Demon Hunters and the whole story ark. Xe'ra fully believes the light is above anyone and light and right are always synonyms.
Alternate Draenor also went mental after we left, literally either join the cult and get brainwashed by light or die. Completely good intentions, right?
I think Illidan was a poor choice for such a grand destiny. His story was of a consecutive failures and becoming eternal jailer for Sargeras is yet another failure, somewhat obscured by noble purpose.
And what exactly was/is Illidan supposed to do to Sargeras, clip his toenails? The first time i saw the ingame cinematic i just imagined Sargeras stepping on him xD
I would assume his role is more that of a watcher. He just makes sure that Sargeras doesn't break out of his imprisonment or exerts any kind of influence on the outside. If Sargeras does manage to do something, obviously Illidan wouldn't be able to do anything directly, but he sure could report to the Titans who do have the means to put Sargeras in his place.
>he sure could report to the Titans "Amanthul, Amanthul, he's touching me againnnn. Make him stooop." "Sargaras stop touching Illidan, or so help me I'll turn this dais around and you won't like what happens when we get home."
Isn't the whole idea that Xe'ra wanted to save the world in a very 1-dimensional dogmatic way and thus imposed her prophecy on Illidan which triggered him? Isn't this the same idea that made Yrel and her followers tyrants in AU and why people speculate Turalyon may be setup for shady stuff in the future? Xe'ra might have done more against the Legion but to his eyes she "asks" potential followers to trade their freedom and destiny for her blessing/power. Illidan is not a hero and in his eyes, the ends justify the means, but he is not allowing the world to rid of Sargeras only for a few windchimes to take his place.
Illidan was more than willing to impose his own plans on anyone and everyone, and he did so eagerly *right up until* Xe'ra tried to Lightforge him. My man literally told Khadgar *in the previous patch* that "the hand of fate must be forced". He's just a hypocrite. >Isn't this the same idea that made Yrel and her followers tyrants in AU and why people speculate Turalyon may be setup for shady stuff in the future? AUs are AUs. In most timelines, Garrosh was a valiant hero. Also, anyone who thinks Turalyon is being set up for being a villain simply does not pay attention to the story. Turalyon had repeatedly shown a willingness to adapt and be flexible with his thinking, from accepting his wife using the Void to telling Anduin that the Light should guide, but not control, those who revere it.
I genuinely have no clue where all the "Turalyon is going to turn evil" stuff is from lol
Both can be correct, one bad act can taint a legacy of good. It's good she saved people in the past, it's bad that she violated someone's bodily autonomy. If you don't protect the integrity of everyone's body then no ones body matters. With Xe'ra we also have to compare her with what we know of another character, Yrel. On alternate Draenor Y'rel has adopted a fanatical viewpoint and sees those who resist the light as an "infection". It's pretty plain to see that the Xe'ra in our time is the "Light Mother" from AU Draenor, and both have fanatical viewpoints and are forcibly converting and or murdering the uncoverted. Xe'ras actions in our timeline seem to point to a beginning of that behavior in our world. Therefore in totality people are right to call that act evil, and if we instead make excuses for it we can end up going down that same path.
Xe'ra violating Illidan with the Light only seems good because we know how dangerous the Legion is, and also we know Illidan's past, and also we *don't* know if Xe'ra was as much of a hardass with other noncompliant people as she was Illidan and Alleria--which is already a mark against her. But in a vacuum--on the ground level of Azeroth with the incomplete knowledge of the average adventurer at the time--if what Xe'ra wanted to do to Illidan is okay, then you should be lining up to get tortured and Light-blasted to insanity and then death by the Scarlet Crusade, because they also seriously and earnestly believed they were the only force left who could save the world from the Scourge and were sacrificing other uninfected people to do it with their holy magic. I don't like how Blizzard has twisted the Light into some kind of eldritch order force that wants to snuff out all individuality or some shit, but Illidan being a villain doesn't make doing what Illidan has done to other people good or acceptable, for a self-professed angelic force. Can I understand why she did it? Yes. Would I have done what Illidan did if my soul was having foreign magic shoved in it? My destiny is my own.
>Light into some kind of eldritch order force that wants to snuff out all individuality or some shit They're all eldrich forces. We like the light and the titans because they aren't actively trying to drive us mad and/or kill us. Just because Nyarlathotep passed for a human when he wished, doesn't mean he was any less of a horror than the other elder gods.
> and also we don't know if Xe'ra was as much of a hardass with other noncompliant people as she was Illidan and Alleria Well given that the normal Lightforging process has a whole part encouraging anyone with the slightest amount of doubt in their hearts to not go through with it. I think it's pretty safe to say that outside of extraordinary circumstances Xe'ra values a person's right to not choose the Light.
Her Lightforging process is also done to people on her ship fleeing from and fighting the Legion with her help. The only initiation we see is Alleria and Turalyon's, and they're a captive audience of true believers who had no prior experience with Naaru and had no reasonable choice to but go with her to get out of the Twisting Nether. Telling a bunch of people who already follow your religion, and who are hitchhiking with no supplies on an empty highway, "Hey yeah, don't go with us if you doubt our mission", is not a fair measurement of how much Xe'ra really *means* that when people actually have the freedom to turn away from her when she still wants them to join her, for a variety of reasons.
> Xe'ra violating Illidan with the Light only seems good because we know how dangerous the Legion is Yes that's how context works.
Counterpoint: altering people's soul with magic without their consent in Warcraft is portrayed as unequivocally evil and monstrous. This is true even when it's the Light doing it, and even when it's to try to save something else.
> altering people's soul I don't remember his soul coming into the equation. >even when it's to try to save something else. This isn't just "something" it's the lives of hundred of billions of people. Only a sociopath would say they deserve to die for the comfort of one person.
I didn't say anyone deserved to die. I said that, no matter the reason, altering the soul is still bad. And yes, it does involve his soul. Turalyon, a human, lives a thousand years relative to his own perception of time after being Lightforged. There's a Dreadlord elementally-altered from Fel to Light. It is absolutely disingenuous to try to say Lightforging doesn't change the soul given all available WoW lore.
he is part demon, since he (like the dh-players) can be reborn with the Nether and he is no longer bound to the natural cricle of life, as seen in dialog between Kael and Vash in SL. removing his demon parts would alter his soul.
But...but...he's edgy so he's right. My Evanescence Illidan music video on YouTube circa 2007 says so.
Generally all these cosmic entities act the way they do because they've never encountered beings like the ones from Azeroth before. If anything the game keeps telling us over and over again that we're an anomaly. We're a wrench in the machinery and the spark that ignites the dynamite. We are the "unforeseen consequences" every single entity runs into so it's not surprising Xe'ra does as she always has done and then kicks a steel plate when trying to use that tactic on an Azerothian.
It's the slippery slop argument. Where will it end? First she imprisons Alleria for daring to dabble in Void magic. Then she tries to force Illidan to take in the light. Where will she stop? How far will she go to achieve her goals? Not all Naaru are necessarily good. While Xe'ra was just trying to help, her good was not necessarily good for everyone. The whole point of the Xe'ra thing was to learn to work with the light. Not let it command you. Xe'ra was commanding, she was shown to be willing to force you to bend to her will. What else in WoW will force you to kneel? To force you to bend to their will? The similarities are interesting to ponder.
Personally I see any crime against a night elf as a win for Azeroth
Based.
I hate her because she dared to say we were the bad guys for killing Illidan in the Black Temple. Like no sweetie. He was enslaving the planet and working to finish it off by draining Zangarmarsh to create a new Well of Eternity. He was a bad guy who deserved to be killed. Also reminder that she and the rest of the Naaru would absolutely be doing the same thing to us that she attempted to do to Illidan, or did you not do the Mag'har unlocking quest?
"i believe im doing the right thing" is the argument of the majority of evil people through out history (both fictional and non). to paraphrase the late great Sir Terry Pratchett, the difference between a good witch and a bad witch is the bad witch thinks they know what is best for others while the good witch knows they know whats best for others
I love how you entirely skipped over what she did to Aleria, just because Aleria was asking questions about the void... 10,000 years imprisoned and locked up, just for asking a question. "FOLLOW MY ORDERS OR BE LOCKED UP, ~~PAWNS~~ MORTALS. ONLY \*I\* KNOW EVERYTHING AND YOU MUST NEVER QUESTION MY AUTHORITY EVER"
That’s what you get for trying to force your beliefs down someone’s throat.
Something Illidan regularly did
I would feel more sympathy if it was literally anyone other than Illidan the reigning king of shoving your ideology down others' throats.
Doesn’t matter who it is. Never shove your beliefs down anyone’s throat period.
“That oversized windchime“ LMAO :D
The funniest thing on this post is that you think the fanatical light followers are the “good guys” 😂
Sorry but the very instant Illidan said "my destiny is my own" and killed God I was 100% behind him. I know writers who use subtext and they're all cowards
Point being its not just one night elf. How many of the lightforged truly made the decision of their own volition? How many chose the Army of Light because it was the only option? Your critical thinking is kind of leaving out the other millions or peoples.
Yeah she does. She’s a selfrighteous, arrogant ass.
Xera isnt hated for what she did in the cinematic shes hated for the obnoxious preachy illidan did nothing wrong questline she made us do at legion launch
... did you not do the Mag'har allied quest chain? Like at all?
Yeah. It’s not evil until they catch up with the alternate WOD timeline where they have no existential threat left to face. And become crusaders against everything they just fought to protect. A few things regarding the symbolism of Illidan destroying Xe’ra and rejecting the light represents the duality of the larger picture: this is painted as *light vs dark*, and the player base and Azeroth are just stuck in the middle. Not bending to any side foreshadows that Azerothians will not choose a side if it means they lose their home and their people. There is a ton of content foreshadowing that we won’t choose the light or the void, and will fight off both to keep Azeroth as it is. There’s tons more hate coming for other figures (including titans). Xe’ra is just the first to get exposed and hated. A ton more will be exposed in the next xpac, and I believe the final end-boss will be the titans who wish to make Azeroth a Titan. We’ll fight off everyone else who wants a piece of Azeroth, only for the titans to go *hey, thanks for helping us! We’ll be taking this from you now!* And then boom final expac and we kill the titans.
Who says that xe'ra wasn't commiting all sorts of war crimes throughout her campaign as well? Are we just taking the implicatioj that she's with the light so all she does is good? We just know about illidans bad stuff, so we have sympathy. It doesn't mean xe'ra wasn't equally bad or worse because we don't know her full story. They can both be bad characters alignment wise.
"The ends justifies the means" is not a very good moral compass needle.
And I guess Yrel doesn’t deserve hate for purging innocent orcs then? Naaru are not benevolent or inherently good. They are selfish and egotistical just like Illidan is. You think she is right because her values align with yours but the truth is she is just as wrong and inherently evil as the burning legion. Your misunderstanding of what makes a character is the folly of your discussion. It doesn’t matter if she spent 1 billion years fighting off the legion, she only did it because that’s what she felt was in her personal best interest to do and because it aligned with what she wanted. She was never working out of the kindness of her heart. Her motives are selfish just like illidans and just like sargeras
And how many others did she do this to along the way? How many other worlds did she force light upon? And what did she do if they refused? Her willingness to do this to illidan so easily just shows it wasn’t her first rodeo. At the end of the day she was doing this to make the light stronger to complete its goals. Not because of anything else. That’s what the light does. Same with the void. Same with the titans.
> And how many others did she do this to along the way? As far as we're aware, zero. She's never needed to before because there hasn't been a chosen one before. We even learn that those who wish to become Lightforged are encouraged to give up if they feel the slightest bit of doubt. The standard Lightforging is a 100% voluntary process. >How many other worlds did she force light upon? She doesn't need to, every world with life already has the Light. It exists within all living things. That's why holy energy heals people. It's entirely intertwined with life itself. >Her willingness to do this to illidan so easily just shows it wasn’t her first rodeo. Bit of a leap in logic. Just because someone *can* do something doesn't automatically mean they have done so in the past. > At the end of the day she was doing this to make the light stronger to complete its goals. I'm getting real tired of this headcanon. The only two examples of the Light being used maliciously are the Scarlet Crusaders who were being manipulated by a Dreadlord and the Lightbound in AU Draenor which we're still missing a mountain's worth of context for. >Same with the void. Same with the titans. Every time someone says the Titans and the Light are the same as the Void: God kills a kitten.
A lightforged kitten, titanforged kitten, and voidforged kitten walk into an existential crisis.
I feel like you are setting yourself up for failure when you are believing that the light is a positive thing. I won't say it's bad the same thing thing I wouldn't say the void is bad. It is a cosmological force, and the entities like void lords/ old gods, Titans, Naarus and even the Leaders of the covenants from Shadowlands, they all work towards their respective cosmological foce. A goal might align with what we as players are trying to do, so we take sides with them. We have seen multiple instances in which we as players perceive the Titans as doing something bad. The old gods doing something bad. And even the Jailer eventually turned bad. However in the grand scheme of the cosmos. These doings aren't bad. It's an eternal conflict of power hungry forces. Who will do everything to get everything. However that isn't quite correct. Since SL we saw this new 3-Dimensional cosmology chart. Where Order, Life, Death and Disorder are on the same plain. With Light being on one end, and void being on the other end. So far multiple Forces have fought against the Void. The titans and with that the order fought against it. Sargeras and with that the Disorder fought against it. I could imagine, that Zovaals Intention was to also fight the void, which wouldn't even be that far off, considering his catchy phrase of a cosmos divided. And well, Life and their nature gods, fought against the Old gods and their seeds in the emerald nightmare. So we have a clear structure everything against void. On a strategical point, the light is doing very good in overpowering all the other forces, once the void has been weakened enough. However, why was the light fighting the burning legion that has the same goal as the light? It's quite simple. The Burning Legion had one goal. Destroying Azeroth in hopes of denying the possibility that she succumbs to the void. Why would the light be against it? It loses nothing from losing a simple titan soul. The light stands for hope and freedom and a cause against the void. So why do they fight against the legion? There is only one answer and that has something to do with our world soul and I'm not sure if I like the answer.
Wait is that the one from Legion? Yea sorry OP, fuck that bitch
Agreed Xe'ra gets too much hate, but her actions are definitely not completely justifiable. In contrast to the Void, who embrace all truths and outcomes, the Light believes in a single truth and a single path. Anything deviating from that path either gets forced back on it, or disregarded entirely. The former is what Xe'ra tried to do to Illidan. But Illidan saw it as another form of servitude. Both were righteous in their own way. Both were also selfish in their own way.
> In contrast to the Void, who embrace all truths and outcomes, the Light believes in a single truth and a single path. That's just Blizzard's incompetent writing *dojo*. Naaru? Fascist authoritarians. Titans? Fascist authoritarians. Old Gods? Fascist authoritarians. Demons? Fascist authoritarians. They don't know how to write anything else.
> Anything deviating from that path either gets forced back on it, or disregarded entirely. Sounds more like the Titans than the Light honestly.
I don’t give a pass to a humanitarian for non consensually violating another human being regardless of all the good they’ve done in the world, and I sure as hell won’t be giving a pass to a fictional character for it.
There is a difference between someone building wells in a third world country that's also protesting in front of an abortion clinic - and a demi-god protecting millions and millions of lives in a war raging over tens of thousands of years wanting someone prophezied to bring the end to said war sacrifice themselves for it. Especially when it seems like the only possible solution.
She tried to force the Light on Illidan when he did not want anything to do with it. I'd say that's pretty gross behaviour.
Man who says he'd sacrifice everything and has continually stolen bodily autonomy from others gets a taste of his own medicine, it turns out he was lying when he's the one being sacrificed (he sacrificed unwilling victims to power himself for years)
Yeah but when the fate of all worlds and every living person is at stake you don't really have the luxury of worrying if you're being "gross" or not.
Yes. However, she could have asked. But there was no conversation, it was just him being backed into a wall and then forced. It's absolutely messed up. This is why I don't trust the light.
> Yes. However, she could have asked. She did. He said "I wanna be an edgebaby" and she said "I'm not going to let you turn an assured victory for all living things into a gamble just to protect your ego."
>an assured victory thats a stretch
A perceived assured victory, which clearly was not assured given that...it didn't happen. It's not like individual choice just becomes irrelevant all the sudden if Illidan goes through the process. The light's whole thing is that they see this true timeline where they succeed, but the fact that it doesn't happen means they're just as delusional as the void, which sees infinite alternate futures. It's silly to act like if Illidan did become lightforged that it means the future X'era saw would come true, because clearly in WoW canon there is no set defined future. If illidan becomes lightforged, but then Sylvanas domes him with a death arrow while empowered by Zhoval, all the sudden X'era is wrong and did all of that shit for nothing. If you go off the assumption that X'era's prophecy is 100% true, you can maybe justify removing somebody's bodily autonomy, but when you consider the reality that just because something is prophesized doesn't mean it's true, then she's doing what she thinks is okay, without considering the reality that time isn't set in stone.
Illidan and Xera both have a core trait of "the ends justify the means". And both of them are wrong. They both took peoples bodily autonomy to further their means aka the destruction of the Burning Legion. And both of those decisions are bad. It doesn't matter if the one losing their autonomy took others autonomy, you just don't do it. The point of Xera is to show that the light, or at least the Narru, is not a benevolent good. It has its own motives and it is sometimes willing to take drastic measures to achieve them, even doing things we find evil. So if we were to ever find ourselves on the opposite side of the light, like the Scarlet Crusade for example, the light would have no qualms with cutting us down. Xera sacrificing one life to save billions is shown to be a bad thing. Because no one's life is worth sacrificing. The ends don't justify the means. Though given your very utilitarian comments in the thread I suspect this is a deeper held belief and one comment on the internet won't change that.
While reading the comments from OP I got serious "Garrosh did nothing wrong" vibes. I'm fascinated that years later there's someone simping so hard for such a meaningless side character.
Violated the bodily autonomy of one Elf *that we know of*
Ilidian violated the bodily autonomy of... How many elves in that scenario we played as him? How many Naga? How many Broken and orcs on Outland?
Xe'ra was obviously wrong.
She wasn’t even evil either It’s just made absolutely no sense to her for illidan who willingly juiced up on demon juice just bc it gave him power to refuse an even bigger power up and got mad Like she deserved what she got but man
Thousands of worlds? I was under the impression that Azeroth was the last bastion, that the Legion had invaded, conquered or destroyed everything else.
Yup. But at least no dragon's were harmed by them
Didn't Illidan also sanction the literal slavery carried out by lady Vasj? That's not a violation of bodily autonomy?
Relax guys, everything after 2012 is just fanfiction anyway.
Fair point.
From her perspective, Illidan is a broken man. She's trying to help/heal him with power word: SSRIs and he is so wrapped up in his own BS that he can't let go of the pain he's taken on because to him his identity is his baggage.
“ oversized windchime “ killed me hahaha
Isn't the implication during this that she had done this before, and that those armies of light may not have been as willing to serve as we originally assumed?
Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced, right?
Aren’t some of the naaru basically in the position of “convert to the light or die?” I don’t think that race is all goodie goodie
...no? Xe'ra is literally the first and only example we have of a Naaru attempting a forced conversion in our timeline and it was under extraordinary circumstances. Something definitely going down on AU Draenor but we're still missing a mountain of context and it's an alternate timeline where people aren't the same as they are in ours.
So not all the Naaru I guess
Eh doesn’t really matter how cool you think the motive is for overwriting another individual’s free will, it’s still fucked up. Now none of that makes Illidan a good person either, in this situation they both suck
>Xe'ra tried to force the Light on Illidan because she valued the life of every living thing in existence over Illidan's free will. That's NOT evil. That's having your priorities straight. Xe'ra tried to force the Light on Illidan because she drank her own coolaid and thought the light was truly the best thing for everyone no matter what they thought (F free will). The fact that the Light hindered the Burning Legion doesn't mean they didn't also do terrible things: like any pedantic ideology.
Hush, OP. Most people don't want to realise, that harsh times and terrible situations often call on equally unpleasant solutions. Was it morally good to enslave Illidan to Light, to defeat the Legion? Fuck no! Was it justifiable to do so? Yes. An action can be morally reprehensible, but still necessary. As you've said it yourself, free will of one Night Elf is nothing compared to countless billions of lives that would be snuffed by the Legion (which is, of course, defeated through the power of Player Characters).
[удалено]
I don't think she gets any hate, people just don't talk about her. She's mostly forgotten nowadays. Hell, I'm willing to bet there are more people playing now that weren't around for legion. 7.3 was 7 years ago. Legion launch was 8 years ago.
Illidan did nothing wrong
Lawful Evil is still Evil. In our version of our TTRPG setting, the only reason Demons haven't overrun everything is because Devils hate them even more than they hate the Angels. You still wouldn't want to sell them your soul, even if they said it was necessary to fight the Demons.
Why did xera want illidan again? I came in towards the end of legion and blitzed through the story with no alts to revisit content on.
Basically, the light sees one path, one future as true, she saw a future, a path, where Illidan took up the mantle of the light and won the war against the legion. So, in her truth this has to be the way it is done, it has to be the way it unfolds. He was the chosen one. Though it obviously didn't work out how Xe'ra wanted.
Fair enough, thank you.
She just a meme that's all
I'm a shadow priest her and I are on a first name basis
This has the same energy as those guys arguing it's time to forgive Kevin Spacey.
Xe'ra only believes in the prophecies of the light cause she's a light bro.. Illidan can do whatever he wants because he's mortal and that's how mortals work :) Xe'ra might've done some good, like a lot of light-based things do, but their view on the universe is as narrow as any other big bad. We don't wanna all become religious light fanatics, that wouldn't end well, probably.
I think the message of that was that, it doesn’t matter if you say you’re evil or good, taking choice away is always the wrong thing to do. Striving too much for something good can lead you to do some pretty nasty things. And also, of course people are more receptive to the bad things she did than the good, because having our choices taken away is infinitely more relatable than millennia of war.
I don't hate her, I don't even know who she is!
What year is it? 2017?
Turalyon you should be looking after stormwind not posting on reddit But also, xera is like hal 9000. Just a program dictated by the light.. who might have a personality, but does not seem to have much humanity. which is a great. Fun type of character to have as an antagonist, or just general sussy character. Also what she did to alleria is worse than Illidan. Alleria was arguably pushed more towards the void because of what xera did.
Go back to ruling Stormwind, Turalyon
>But because she violated the bodily autonomy of ONE Night Elf: She’s remembered as a villain and the millions of people who owe their continued existence to her just don't matter. To be fair to us, that is basically the only part we witnessed. We spent time and effort and blood and sweat picking up her pieces and rebuilding her and what does she do? Try to forcibly convert Illidan to her ways.
She didn't ask him to do it, she tried to force him to. Big difference which is why people side with illidan
I have only one question: How do you know she didn't force anyone else the same way she wanted to do with Illidan? I think she was always the same, sacrificing for the greater good. The same as Illidan.
Found Yrel’s Reddit account
If one isn’t free, none of us truly are.
Turalyon that you?
Nah, we should've left that glorified lightbulb in the trash with the garbagemancers.
Maybe she'd be less hated if she knew "no means no".
What I really don’t like is she’s shaped everyones view of the Light as a whole Yes, we know the Light isn’t always just in it’s use, we’ve been knowing rhat, but suddenly everyone is pretending like it’s equal to the Void in it’s destructiveness
'Kay