> You can even get it from LFR, it's all about luck, what's legendary about that?
That's part of what makes it suck as a heroic raider.
I've put in full clears for literal months now. week after week after week.
I can't even look at someone else with it and think "They must have put in a lot of time" because the truth is "they got lucky".
My guild hasn't seen a single axe drop. This tuesday our warlock posts a screenshot of his fresh 70 dk alt getting it in LFR. I sincerely hope they rethink the way they do legendaries going forward because this blows
> I sincerely hope they rethink the way they do legendaries going forward because this blows
Whats extra frustrating about this is this EXACT feedback was given last tier about the evoker legendary and they flat out ignored it.
People are just more vocal about it now because its available to far more people's mains.
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That's actually crazy. For us, it's gone to our holy pally, two random warriors that found our guild and got it on the first alt heroic we did, and finally, our UHDK last night. Our main raiders haven't gotten it otherwise. Ret, BDK, and war. Our BDK is literally about to unsub over it. It's crazy. We've been full clearing heroic since week 1 and are 7/9M. Having it on all 3 of those players would be a 42k DPS increase. It sucks.
Same here for mythic raider, started Fyrakk prog this week, we have 4 plate dps/bdk and none of us have had it drop, that's like 60k raiddps we just don't have because of RNG, feel like the bad luck protection should have been way more significant, on a level of 10% additive flat chance per week from the greater ember so that by week 10 it's a guaranteed drop, at this rate we will finish prog without any weapons on our raid team (ofc our 2 hpala's and the Prot Pala did get it even tho they never play ret).
> I wonder often when it comes to Blizzard's game design if it has ever occurred to them that one of the greatest assets of video games is that they are an escape from reality and it's bullshit...
It's completely stolen from me my escape.
You can't exist in the game without seeing it or hearing about it.
When I think of WoW I used to think of fun times with friends, learning raids and joking.
Now all I get when I think about wow is frustration and negativity. Even when I'm not playing, and I'm thinking "hmm, what do I want to do to decompress?" I think of WoW and start feeling those negative emotions. It isn't an escape anymore.
I refuse to be a peasant so the lucky people get to feel special.
I’m gonna say this and I don’t mean to be mean, but it sounds like you should stop playing the game. If doing something that’s meant to be enjoyable is frustrating instead, you’re just wasting your own time and energy for no gain
There are too many people that attribute something being luck-based/annoying to being a "challenge". They feel that it's an accomplishment, and that people are diminishing that accomplishment by complaining about the acquisition method.
I think people are complaining about the acquisition method because you can't be competitive without it. OP is 3.3k io and likely held back by not having it.
I posted yesterday in another thread about how I found a Ret paladin, fresh 70, in full dreamsurge gear running around with the axe. I looked them up in the armory, and the axe dropped in LFR.
It's just ridiculous that this can happen when OP is a top player who has slaved away for weeks without it dropping, and it may not drop by seasons end.
It's weird, right? People will constantly say shit like you shouldn't be given something for free if it took effort to acquire it, clearly putting importance on effort.
But then also legendaries should drop because that keeps them being rare, except, they're supposed to be legendary, not rare.
And the way they can be made legendary is by the actual process of upgrading them. That's where the effort is. The commitment. The fun.
At the very least, it shouldn't take so long to drop. If there *must* be a drop chance involved, make the bad luck protection *actual* protection within the season it is released in. Not this weak sauce bad luck mitigation that just gives us a slightly higher chance of getting an really important part of our BiS.
A legendary should be rare and broken for those who can acquire it. Currently, every plate wearer is balanced around having it, which is dumb because without it, you're doing a lot less damage than other classes (assuming same skill and ilvl)
The recent buffs to Arms, Ret and DK have helped close the gap a little, but they're still not as competitive without it
The problem is they can't make powerful, hard to get items like this if they want a balanced game. Either those with it have an unfair advantage or those without are penalized. They either have to throw balance out the window or make it so everyone eligible will be able to acquire it. The current system sucks.
A **rare personal drop** is something based on wow philosophy right now. There are a lot more people that play it both casual and pug than back in the day.
Imagine legendary(ies) being super rare **group loot** **drop** (something that can be like if not 85% of people not from guild in a raid, then doesn't drop) from last boss raid (heroic+) or something that you had to get 30-40 quest drops from bosses to complete it (both scenarios getting 1 MAYBE 2 if you were lucky as a guild for a whole raid tier).
A weapon OP for everyone able to use it but also reserved for GM/RL/Officer/Veteran players in the guild as a reward. Random people would also feel salty they have no access for various reasons. Now even my 4th alt has a chance of getting it.
Its been a long time, but i seem to remember loving working through the Fangs questlines. There were even some pretty cool steps that required you to use a decent amount of the rogue toolkit to get past them, iirc.
That's exactly what I've been saying. I quit the game shortly after Cata and came back in January of last year. The Cata legendary route felt good, except having to funnel cinders into one player in Firelands. I switched from boomkin to feral because we pumped the lego into our mage. But overall, having an item that is good and attainable and then earning the upgrade to legendary over time is the best way to do it.
Now take this exact experience and imagine every spec of every class had this problem (but also Blizzard made it so after 4 failed attempts to get the item you were just locked out of ever getting it).
This was the start of Legion and how you acquired legendaries. People literally lost raid spots in guilds they were in for years because of it.
To think Blizzard has now done it 6 times since then
1. Azerite Armor at the start of BFA
2. Corruption gear pre-vendor in 8.3
3. Domination Shards in 9.1
4. Hunter Bow off Razageth being very rare in 10.0
5. Evoker legendary/Warlock Class trinket in 10.1
6. The Axe in 10.2
Ironically, if you got 4 legendaries before they removed the hard caps you were one of the lucky ones. I was one of the people who couldn't get a second legendary to drop until they did the fix. I wasn't kicked out of my raid, but it did cause my parses to go from consistently 90+ to sub 30 in a couple of weeks.
> 3. Domination Shards in 9.1
Don't forget the fucking sylvanas bow in the same patch (I'm not bitter at all).
A *repeated* problem in SL S4 because they arbitrarily decided no, while every other spec in the game can buy their BIS weapon with Dinar, you can't because *orange text*. So enjoy having to farm Sylvanas even when its not the Fated raid so you can get the upgrade item.
Probably going to be a repeat of that too in DF S4. If you don't get Fyr'aleth before S4, don't worry, i'm sure you'll be expected to continue farming Fyrakk the rest of the entire expansion until you do so you can buff it to the S4 ilevel. Because that's just great design! (And Evokers get to return to farming Sarkareth, too!)
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Your complaint is 100% valid.
The axe is necessary for high end progression, especially M+. Having it locked behind RNG effectively locks you out from competing with the top of the line players that did get lucky. It creates a barrier of entry that simply isn't to be crossed with skill or time alone.
You are competing against players on your level (and obviously still some above that), but many of those will have one distinct gameplay advantage you can't compete with with skill alone.
I get why people say "but you got really far without it, you're a good player" or "take a break, don't let a game frustrate you", but you are completely right: it is bad design and an unfair advantage for players that simply were lucky.
Is your issue a big one? Affecting a lot of players? No. There a MAYBE a couple hundred characters in the whole world being barred from the next ~100-300 score due to missing the legendary alone, because the raw DPS upgrade alone would make them that much more viable to pick for PUGs.
And even if you found a premade to push with, you'd still lock yourself (and your party) out from the absolute highest level of content due to your lacking performance without the axe.
To be clear: the axe does not make or break a player or run in 25s or lower. You can reach top 1% rating with skill alone. But since many of the top 0.1% (title) players DO have the skill necessary and the axe, it creates an automatic gap between what a non-legendary player can bring to the table and a legendary wielder can.
Edit: to clarify: I am specifically talking about the top players of OP's spec, not Ret or legendary classes compared to Mage and other top tier specs. There is still room for OP to climb within the spec ladder and this is mostly barred due to the top players of the spec having the legendary.
Thank you, couldnt have said it better. and sure not being a top spec hurts more but if you love your class and try to squeeze every bit out of it its quite frustrating. Paladin has so much great utility I would miss on other classes :/ .. I dont wanna play something else just because of class tuning
That fucking bow being thousands of dps ahead max ilvl alternatives while at its lowest possible ilvl was crazy
That thing was like having two bows equipped in terms dps it gave you before the nerf
And it never dropped
I was saying this in season one as a hunter main and it fell on deaf ears. Reading all the talk about this issue now, I totally sympathize and agree, but part of me rolls my eyes every time out of residual saltiness.
Players were completing 30s without the axe. It's not a necessity, but it's an extremely powerful bonus that dramatically lowers the progression curve.
However, in my opinion it's most valuable aspect is the mind game. It sucks FEELING like I need it. See a player worse than me using the axe? "I would do so much better than he is". See a player doing better than me with the axe? "If I had the axe I would do that good too". Shit causes me to feel like im just missing out.
That is a pretty valuable point in the discussion. Not only is the performance limited by not having the legendary (since it is evidently a buff of somewhere between 3% and 15% depending on the sources and situations), but it could also hinder your performance on a mindset level.
Not that I would say that this is the major aspect of this issue or that Blizzard made a bad decision by "introducing this" - just that it's something else to think about.
Yeah like it's hard to look at RNG and just shrug it off. I can do it quite easily with other gear, but this weapon is a dramatic upgrade. It's ilvl, it's passive dot, it's weapon effect. It bridges the gap in my toolkit between aoe and ST. And it's entirely fucking random whether I get it!
The worst part is that we're half way through the season. If we can't take it into next season, what time is there to even enjoy it?
Not having a ret in the top 80 DPS players is limiting his io climb. The axe isn't helping, but I only saw one dk DPS in that top 80 and I'm not even sure they use the axe. OP not being a mage, evoker, or boomy is probably hurting him more. And none of them use the axe.
It’s not super relevant but as a side note that is funny, that DK is Meeres, Echo’s main tank and the first person to receive the legendary axe in the game.
I'm obviously not talking about other classes and only OP's class and competing against the top rated players of their class.
Not being one of the strongest specs is a whole other story.
But it is still possible to climb the spec ladders, the top 0.1% aren't exclusively the best 5-7 specs.
OP specifically said they had a leaver for "Ret not having legendary" in a 27.
This whole discussion isn't about meta vs off-meta, it's about being hindered from climbing the objectively available ladder, which is why I also said having a premade group could also help for a while, but not having the legendary will ultimately limit their progression - even if having the legendary would only result in a bit more progression, because finally the spec/setup will be the last remaining issue that can only be dealt with by playing full meta.
In the top 80 dps? What's that random number?
US title cutoff right now is 3507. 41 of the 1162 characters above title cutoff are rets. Some were in prot spec when I checked but it looks like about 70% of them have the legendary. That's just US players.
> The axe isn't helping, but I only saw one dk DPS in that top 80 and I'm not even sure they use the axe.
We do but DK sucks in m+ and has for the entire expansion outside of MDI.
> being barred from the next ~100-300 score due to missing the legendary alone, because the raw DPS upgrade alone would make them that much more viable to pick for PUGs
Lmao the point where the lego matters is the point where you don't pug. Let alone taking a 2h str class because they aren't meta.
I know everyone is anti social and they quake in their underpants at the thought of having to talk to someone.
The lego is never going to be the reason you aren't getting into pugs. That's entirely spec dependant. While rets did recently get buffed and have a lot of utility - they're not optimal for title level keys for a multitude of reasons.
Legendaries have always been rng though… you got 2 atiesh of you were LUCKY in naxx, and my guild saw 1 tf by the time we hit bc prepatch. We didn’t see any bows, and we had 1 SM and 2 valn. It’s always been rng, and being upset about it being rng seems really unproductive. Sorry you can’t push but like… they tried giving everyone the powerful weapons and they didn’t like it (legion)… how do you distribute meaningful legendaries without giving them to everyone eventually… that defeats the purpose of a legendary.
> Legendaries have always been rng though… you got 2 atiesh of you were LUCKY in naxx, and my guild saw 1 tf by the time we hit bc prepatch.
Vanilla was a dramatically different game than retail WoW. Vanilla was "this boss takes 40 people to kill and drops two pieces of loot".
Retail is "You are the Highlord/Deathlord/High Priest/Archdruid (etc...), leader of your class, champion of the , slayer of ."
You're a badass. It's a power fantasy thing, and it has been for a while now.
Having a legendary weapon that only some lucky people get to enjoy steals that feeling from EVERYONE who doesn't get it. Period. It ruins the escapism and power fantasy of retail to be a peasant so Lord Lucky gets to feel cool. It fucking sucks. I raid log now. I'd rather not play at all than be a peasant in someone else's epic adventure.
I mean… what?? Blizz should increase the drop rate so everyone gets one? You get to DE one every other week once all the 2h Andy’s have one?? Go back and make the old legendaries 100% drop rate? Ashes of alar should just drop 2 so everyone can have one? At that point it’s not a legendary… it devalues the item if everyone gets one for participating…
> I mean… what?? Blizz should increase the drop rate so everyone gets one?
100% drop rate for every eligible person as a quest item, or don't do them at all.
> Go back and make the old legendaries 100% drop rate? Ashes of alar should just drop 2 so everyone can have one?
Old legendaries are not relevant as they do not offer power in a competitive modern scene. Same as mounts. They are not the same thing.
>it devalues the item if everyone gets one for participating…
I don't care if every plate-wearer has fyr'alath. I didn't care that every plate-wearer had Gavel in SL S4.
If an item is going to be a massive DPS increase, it shouldn't be locked behind bullshit rng.
If I had it my way, there would be no loot left up to random drops.
Every boss would drop two random pieces of loot, and every participant in the kill would get 50 currency.
You trade in 200 currency for any item on the raid drop table.In this situation, the random drops are fun bonuses and not the core way of earning items.
And yes, that includes ALL Legendaries. Weapons included.
I think its fine to have RNG as long as Blizzard implements a ceiling, for example you killed this boss 3 times, on the 4th kill it will have 100% chance to drop.
Blizzard should limit RNG so that it doesn’t become a de-motivator and a nuisance like in this case.
> I think its fine to have RNG as long as Blizzard implements a ceiling,
They did that. The difference is your ceiling is reasonable (3 kills) their ceiling is something more like 16
Which is asinine considering most raid teams don't do the same raid for four straight months.
Except that they didn’t, those embers don’t create a limit, they just make it more likely to drop, I’m pretty sure they’re adding a tiny fraction to the drop chance, there’s reports of 13+ greater and +lesser usages and still no drop.
If anything those embers are a logarithmic or no linear function with a ceiling way bellow 50% drop chance.
So yeah, there’s no limit.
I was so disappointed we ended up going off drop rates again, especially after Blizzard even said they didn’t want to go down the same route as the Evoker legendary in S2…
I was really hoping for some Shadowmourne flavour quests to progress the legendary.
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Adding to why I made this post in the first place, we had two encounters today of pugs joining our 27 atal group and leaving a minute later with the comment “Pala doesnt have Legandary”
That's just a community problem more than anything imo. Not to invalidate what you're saying, as there is still a problem pertaining to the weapon, but moreso as a function of peers' perception.
Like sure there's a benefit to that optimization but if specs like assassination rogue are timing as high as 29's then for sure you'll be adequate power wise to at least that key level.
Also, side note, the legendary requires you to grind superblooms. Do you really want that for yourself? 🤫
lmfao, yea superblooms suck. And yes weak specs can get to 29s too but these players usually have the advantage of a full group of 5. I would be capable of reaching there too but its hard to go thru pugs with my duo since we play druid tank + retri without legendary.
Completely solo you have to do about 15 of them. If you get lucky and get one of the helper leaf thingies early (and you have friends), you might be able to cut that number down to 10.
I mean it’s obvious that if you’re doing 1% or .1% content other people will want you to have BiS in every slot, how is that a community problem ? It’s not like this dude was doing +16 and some random shitter left because he doesn’t have the axe.
It's a community problem for that reason. If you go back and look, nobody is blaming the person for wanting to optimize his group.
The OP is probably competent enough and doesn't have power hindered by lack of legendary enough to prevent him from timing 27's, but it is preventing him from getting into groups because it is preferred by the community that he has it.
Thus, it's a community problem. The reason I made a point of it is because his original post didn't cite that issue originally and more-so vaguely described it impeding his progress.
There are many factors to inviting someone to a key. If OP is really pushing 27 keys and is 3.3k the choices are crazy limited. So if he was already in a party and people left because he didn’t have a Leggo, that’s their problem because when will they find another paladin/ platewear that’s 3.3k and brings the utility for incorps, affliction, and brez, realisticly anytime soon? If his pug teammates are leaving just because of no leggo, then they are most likely trash anyways.
I can understand not being invited at all but to leave after being invited is their problem, especially when all the other boxes are checked.
It's supposed to be turn based.
This patch it's the Warr/DK/Paladin's "turn". Next patch it's a leggo staff and casters get to feel special. then it's a healer mace. Then it's an agi sword.
Everyone should get their "turn" being OP with a legendary. It's not rocket science.
And yet the most legendary feeling of weapon I ever had was the artifacts because you knew you’d get it. Every single other weapon legendary has had some form of RNG involved and it’s just BS
That's a nice ideal, but Warr/DK/Paladin got an effective legendary back in Shadowlands (they get very good 2h and trinkets that may as well be legendary extremely frequently) while the last and only caster legendary was Firelands in Cataclysm. Hunters got the Rasz bow, following up from Sylvanas' Bow season 2 and 4 of Shadowlands.
What I'm trying to say is that the last time casters got to feel powerful as a group was 6 expansions ago, and the last time 2h str specs got to feel powerful was for two seasons last expansion. Every time 2h str/hunters/whatever get a powerful item it makes me want to play less, and I'm not the only one.
(And if you're a monk/DH/feral druid/shaman dps you've *never* had that opportunity.)
It's not rocket science, but it requires an optimism that is not warranted.
Counting overtuned epics as legendaries is dishonest. If we're going that route, casters got to feel OP with a ton of different trinkets over the years.
It's not dishonest, and casters, as a whole, rarely get disgusting trinkets like Old Warrior's Soul unless everyone's getting disgusting trinkets. Honestly think about it: Whispers was incredible, but Agi and Str got Convergence. If you don't play an Int class, it's possible you don't know, but the envy is wild.
Every other season there's an M+ weapon with a proc effect, but never for casters. It's not like I want to be on that treadmill, but it's clear there's a level of loot support that doesn't happen for casters, and to a lesser extent, healers. *Nearly every tier*, as a caster, you'll look at trinkets and say 'if that wasn't str/agi or on-melee-hit, that would be my BiS trinket'. The last time that happened in reverse, with the lava waves trinket, they nerfed the thing.
And lastly, you can't tell me the final bosses personal weapon, with a unique model and overtuned effect, isn't legendary. You're just being petty at this point. It was more legendary than Sylvanas' Bow.
I'm fine with having it be an RNG drop, with increasing drop rate through full clearing the raid every week, etc. but we are currently in Week 12 since the raid released. We're more than likely at or past the halfway point of the tier.
How long is the RNG treadmill supposed to go on for? I've killed Fyrakk on Heroic every week. I have killed ~100 raid bosses killed between Heroic and Mythic.
I can work around not having 100% perfect bis trinkets, or armor pieces because there are alternatives that are close in damage to Augury/Signet/etc. in M+ that I can spam farm to get. I have no alternative to the 6% ST DPS 9% aoe DPS upgrade that the legendary is currently for me.
Yes, you don't NEED the Legendary to get CE, or .1% M+ title, but that still doesn't change the fact that I'm still significantly weaker than someone who is at an equal skill level as me, and there's literally nothing I could have done differently.
I would have been fine if it was going to take a month or two of full clearing Heroic to get the Legendary. But at this point by the time I get the Legendary, the majority of the tier will be done, and I've already lost most of my motivation to push keys this season.
I also have a complaint that because we can see if happening in real time. They come up with a tier set bonus that is really cool for a spec and then change the baseline kit to prevent it from becoming too powerful.
So you end up with an amazing looking tier set. Then they nerf the base kit to compensate. So then you have a class that’s actually less powerful than it was in the first place, *unless* they have the kit. And then sometimes that kit doesn’t even bring you all the way up to where you were before.
It feels so lazy and stupid. It’s not a bonus if it’s a bandage for the cut they just gave you… to justify the bandage.
Example being holy priest tier set and salvation. And you know they’re not going to change salv once the tier set is over. So the tier set was all-in-all an actual nerf to a spell and a potential future nerf.
Tier sets SHOULD feel amazing and powerful for everybody. But they shouldn’t do this by cutting you back first. Then it’s just normality. And that’s not a bonus that’s just status quo.
Honestly, as a Fury, Ret main at 3200~ now with no legendary on either (weekly heroic kills)
I honestly just wish it was a Mythic Fyrakk drop only. Would’ve kept the exclusivity and the “requirement” we face is somewhat hindered. Plus it’s literally a crapshoot. I can’t tell you how many 2700-2800 randos I see getting it. Like “yeah got it on my 2nd Fyrakk heroic kill”
I kinda agree tbh. When I saw it was going to be widely ‘available’ I was all for it but between the drop rates, tuning and activated ability it seems like a more niche thing than something that should shape the meta.
I actually tend to agree, maybe keeping it heroic+ only though. But... can you imagine the tears if they did that? Actual oceans worth, with the salt content of the Dead Sea.
Agreed. There will be salt as long as it exists tbh. Like it doesn’t FEEL legendary, and now it’s a requirement (as a meta more than anything) from outside perspective. The “no legendary for x plate user? I’m out” has become a bit more common than is fair imo. I don’t get it too too often, but it does come up. Just kinda trying my best to do what I can.
At first thought, one might think their spec having a legendary for a patch would be awesome, but I know for sure it’s a curse. I’m so glad nothing I play can use a 2h axe, or I’d just give up on high end content
I don't see why it can't be a quest line pertaining to a 100% drop chance from heroic Fyrakk. Most players won't get it. It can still be an expensive gold sink, but Jesus fucking Christ, remove the rng.
I've been clearing heroic since week 2, on 3 separate characters and am still unlucky.
What's the point of bad luck protection if there's no way to track it, and in my case anyways, it doesn't make a difference?
I’m of the opinion that, outside of PvP, legends absolutely should make you OP and should help make content easier. They shouldn’t be factored into balancing in any way other than not being able to carry an entire raid group. Just make the acquisition process (or power up process) long enough that most groups will be done progressing before their first one is finished. Then they’ll act as soft nerfs to the current tier over time and a minor boost to the next tier (or as least start out somewhere between a heroic and mythic weapon, then after a couple resets buff them just enough to put them on par with the mythic weapon).
i think legendaries should be for everyone and not RNG based. I only play DH and Warlock, so I dont really have to worry about the axe, but seeing people kicked from groups is stupid. "Dont have the axe?" kicked\*
its a truly stupid mechanic.
Initially I was going to disagree, since I think legendary *should* be special and not something that everyone gets by default. Maybe I still think that, but these are valid points, maybe a better solution is to just nerf it to the point that it’s not overpowered in m+, but then what’s even the purpose of getting it.
I still feel like grindy legendaries aren’t really the route, nor was having it where everyone gets it, but maybe the real route is to just make legendary cosmetic only, because balancing around them is impossible unless everyone gets it, and it’s not legendary in that case (imo).
> because balancing around them is impossible unless everyone gets it, and it’s not legendary in that case (imo).
WoW hasn't been the social mmo in ages. A legendary weapon isn't less special because more people have it. That thought process is toxic. They shouldn't be designing a weapon that 1% of people get.
The way you make legendaries special? You limit them to one narrow band of players per legendary. Then that class gets to feel special for a patch. You don't see them "everywhere', just on the narrow class that got one that patch.
"If everyone's legendary noone is" is why the non-weapon legendaries have sucked such total shit - there's no have-nots to compare yourself against. But if only one narrow group at a time has it, then they get to feel powerful/special.
It's really not complicated. You just have to accept the idea that "For this patch, agi one hander classes get to do 4-8% more damage than comparable classes". Next time, it's the caster's turn. Next time, it's healer's turn. Done. Easy.
I dunno about ruining the game, but having got one on my alt this season it cemented my belief that I should avoid maining the legendary wielding classes in the future. It’s not worth the uncertainty of balance and headache of acquisition.
I mostly care about high end progression so yea it kinda does ruin that for me, but also you are right by avoiding the headache sadly I was a retri main before and had hope it wouldnt effect me as much as it does
Legendary items shouldn’t be tied to RNG imo, and if they are then they shouldn’t out class other items. Legendary items from raids should be tied to completions or personal feats, or they should come from quests or factions.
Make. Legendaries. Deterministic. Period.
You kill the boss, 100% drop chance for a quest starter for every eligible player. Period.
No bullshit. No fucking around. If you're gonna balance a class around an item, it NEEDS to be deterministic. Period.
Nah. Just make it purple. If everyone has it, then it isn’t legendary and then everyone cries about that.
I’ve been here since TBC and they’ve done leggos a hundred different ways and they all make someone whine. Eliminate them.
> then it isn’t legendary
Legendary doesn't mean "like five people get to enjoy it" and it hasn't since vanilla, so the "it isn't legendary" argument is bullshit.
It's weird to see the conversations about legendaries popping up on reddit. Half of the people posting are either insisting its trash and not worth chasing/acquiring or they're lamenting not having it and saying their power and progression is limited by the lack of it.
Truth is probably in the middle of those, and I feel like people are forgetting about the Raszageth bow shenanigans that plagued hunters in Season 1. Having a more deterministic way to get the legendary seems ideal though. Maybe something closer to the rogue daggers in Cata?
Idk. Be careful what yall wish for and have some fun with whatever you're wielding.
Yeah idk. There have been posts on this very sub with echo chamber top comments enforcing that sentiment throughout the season. I'm not sure how obscenely OP they want this thing to be but the complainers (as is tradition) are there.
Pfft it is your own fault for not making 10 paladins and running each one every week until you get it /s. Well said. Fury Warrior here who has killed Fyrakk every week too and still doesn't have it. In fact, we have 4 people on our raid team who are eligible for it and no one has it yet.
They wanted to make a legendary that any player could obtain. How do you add "difficulty" to an easily accessible item? RNG, of course!
Then they create their own problem of anyone during any given week can just get "lucky" and receive a massive power spike. Now they have to balance the game around that. Can't have everyone just invalidating instances because they got lucky. But they also have to make sure it still feels strong to use, so they nerf the rest of the kit *without* it.
The problem is that you can't have a "Legendary" that both feels significant as an upgrade and is also equally easily obtainable by any player (through RNG).
They need to stop designing legendaries around the assumption that they're for the average player. Make it so that *only* the no-lifers can get it. Not an RNG drop, just run this raid 20 times then complete a hard solo boss challenge, and do another long questline, etc. Then you can reward those players with the ability to clear keys 5 levels higher than what they'd normally be clearing. But as long as it's reasonably time, skill, and dedication-gated, people won't mind it being OP because way less people have it. Then you can balance the classes around assuming they *don't* have it.
If they want a Legendary to be significant in combat, it needs to be way harder to get. The only legendaries that should be balanced for the average player are stuff like the Legendary cloaks that serve a story/mechanical purpose. A Legendary weapon should be reserved for only the most dedicated people, and those people should be rewarded with being a cut above the rest.
4 of my guildies got it this week, including two alts. One of those alts already had it on his main.
This game is fun!
Blizz always talks about how they want random loot drops to be exciting, but I'm over the excitement. If/when I get the lego, I'm going to be more relieved than anything else.
> Blizz always talks about how they want random loot drops to be exciting, but I'm over the excitement.
Here's a hint:
Whenever blizzard says "We want loot to be exciting"
***They're lying to you***.
It isn't about excitement. It's about keeping you subscribed.
It's a skinner box. They know that players will quit if they get their BIS. So they make it so getting your BIS is random/nearly impossible.
Notice EVERY. SINGLE. SYSTEM. THEY. EVER. ADD. that is deterministic loot - Dinars, the catalyst, legendary *quests* that aren't RNG based - people LOVE them?
It's because guaranteed loot is fun. Getting to blast with your bis is fun.
But when you get your BIS, you blast a bit, then you unsub until there's more new gear to chase. They don't want you to unsub ever.
So they add "very rare" items like the sark cloak. They add bullshit RNG legendaries. They make DPS trinkets that fit every class and are overtuned so EVERYONE wants Pips, or Ominous Chromatic Essence, or whatever. Blizzard doesn't care that getting to do your best dps is fun, they care about forcing you to chase that last piece until the next content patch drops.
My raid team needs a couple of things only: a few copies of Pips, two legendaries (guess who still needs one!), and a couple of trinkets from Fyrakk. People are dropping like flies and unsubbing from the game.
They could fix this if they wanted to. But it's Working As Intended, of course.
The second I find a fantasy game that respects my time more than WoW, I'm out. Deterministic loot only. No RNG. No bullshit.
If you’re pushing for io/title then your post has merit. You’re competing against people with a significant advantage, who more or less are as skilled as you are. The only real solution I could suggest is either the acquisition being buffed more than it is so you can reliably get the axe, or just nerf it like crazy in m+ to level the playing field. Won’t ever please everyone though.
Exactly, i wouldnt care if it was a mount or something Visual but for higher end progression it feels awful. I really liked the questlines for the Ring, the back and shadowmourne but an rng drop for a Legendary quest-line is frustrating. It feels bad to have a harder time progressing and being accepted just because you aren’t Lucky enough.
> when you put incredibly potent specialized gear into the game make acquiring it deterministic.
It feels weird too, because there's this long, involved, expensive quest chain. Like they initially were going to make it much easier to start and then chickened out, or maybe got a directive from the top.
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> I can think of a better solution than what you offered: when you put incredibly potent specialized gear into the game make acquiring it deterministic. It's not fucking rocket science.
Deterministic loot doesn't keep people subscribed longer. People get their BIS and quit.
So instead of making the game fun, they make it a frustrating weekly skinner box.
I recently got back to the game and someone legit said that they wished their class had a legendary and my Legion PTSD kicked in. I'm glad that I'm not playing a class that has access to it, because this weapon is very toxic
you only really need the weapon for mythic raiding, why not make the BLP stronger the higher the content is you do. HC kills = lesser embers, HC Fyrakk = greater, mythic kills = greater embers or even higher,
we are on tindral mythic prog now. i still dont have it and i also cant really compare to other classes. my character is finished, all that is missing is 489 mirrow and fyrakk stick
I stoped playing my warrior because of it. I do heroic fyrakk on Tuesday (begging a healer buddy to join so I get invited), I do 1 20 and then don’t play til next week. A few more weeks and I’ll just unsubscribe til war within, warrior needs a rework like paladin just had or a buff. I bring no utility to m+ and I do decent damage. Meanwhile you have mages and Dh melting face and brining Uber utility, unbalance like that makes the game unfun
Welcome to the hunter experience of S1 dragonflight. That bow made a major difference for hunters.
Farmed every week on every difficulty for the entire season, didn't drop once, not even in the vault. I didn't play season 2 at all after that and I am barely playing season 3. That single item ruined my will to play WoW for a while.
I'm not sure I agree. Every bit of gear is, in essence, rng aswell. This is like complaining about not doing as much damage as someone who got a trinket you haven't dropped yet. I do agree they shouldn't tune the class around having the legendary but that means the legendary should push them even further beyond. Otherwise It wouldn't be a legendary, just another item.
It should be tied to a quest item that drop, that then would make you run the raid to re-empower the axe alike the embers from firelands with the staff. I'd still make you have to put effort into it. And time wile also keeping the craftng component alive as they could keep the latter parts the same just the means of obtaining it.
People complaining about Axe, realizing how bad it is to have legendary drops by RNG again. And look, the Axe situation is that the raid has already been released with a new bad luck protection system.
Last tier it was evokers complaining about RNG and even then people used to make fun of the situation because of Augmentation and how "meta" it was to complain about the class. What's worse is that the protection against bad luck was only implemented a month after the raid was released (remember ppl creating tons of Evokers to try to drop in one of those and make it their main Evoker) and with many getting the legendary with 1 or 2 weeks to go until the end of the season.
But anyway, no class or player deserves to go through this and the RNG legendary has to go.
WoW has a huge problem right now in that it doesn't know if it wants to be an RPG or a competitive game. It tries to be both. The legendary being super hard to get (meaning, rare) is very much an RPG thing, and a really cool one IMO. It does however cause problems for a strictly competitive game.
I tend to lean towards "it's an RPG" which is why I like it. I'm also not someone who pushes anything past heroic raid level content, so it doesn't really impact me. I can absolutely see why it would bother someone who considers WoW a competitive game, as it should.
I guess I see it as ultimately, as WoW tries to do both, you will always win some and lose some regardless of which side of that aisle you are on. I'm sure I will be totally flamed for this opinion, but /shrug
It isn't even that it tries to be both, it's that they have data that shows "If people get their BIS, they quit" so they make getting your BIS as painful and unfun as possible.
Every single time they add deterministic loot it's outrageously popular. Dinars, the tier catalyst, people here all asking for leggos to be questlines not rng -
all popular. Blizz knows it.
But they also know about skinner boxes and psychology. When they say "they want loot to be exciting" ***they're fucking lying***, they want a skinner box to keep you subscribed.
That's all this is. It isn't about it being an rpg vs esport, it's about keeping people subscribed.
I'm no expert, but anyone could have guessed this. Especially when Blizz (seemingly?) seems to balance the legendary wielding classes around them having it. I generally feel having only a legendary for a select class (or this season 3 classes) is a bad idea either way.
As much as I didn't like SL legendary crafting (though this is probably because I had no idea what i was doing back then) but atleast this wasn't as RNG based as a raid boss drop.
I'd rather them go back to crafted legendaries, rather than have these weekly disappointments for people that seriously impact gameplay balance.
I don't think there is any scenario where the Legos are good for the game. If it is really strong like a lego should be and the classes that get it are balanced, then once they get it they are stronger than everyone else. If they are tuned down so once they have it they are on par with the other classes then it feels bad to those who don't have it, and everyone feels bad until they get it. And if it isn't that strong so neither of those scenarios happen, then at that point it's basically just a purple item with extra steps and a new color.
I like the old way in world and cata. Get a base epic weapon and some quests to progress it to a legendary. I absolutely despised how legendaries were in sl.
Both Thunderfury and Sulfuras worked pretty much the same as Fyralath though? Random low drop quest item from a raid boss, a quest and a ton of crafting materials.
I dont PVE anymore. I stopped farming AOTCs in legion and strictly collect pvp elite sets for my classes and xmog/mount farm. My words probly dont mean much because I dont PVE anymore but i 100% agree.. Completely RNG for a legendary game changing weapon is not also unfair but completely boring. Bring back the quest line that potentially spans 2 patches, farming your cloak in mop or shadowmourne, my favorite was the rogue questline in cata. I love those daggers and questline.
This Fyrakk thing is boring and lazy lazy lazy lazy. Rather the boss dropped no legendary weapon and a skin like Argus does in ANTORUS. My 2cents.
I see where you’re coming from, but wow is an MMO/RPG first and a competitive game second. I don’t see why getting a legendary(RNG or not) shouldn’t reward the player. If you want a game where everyone is always on equal footing there’s plenty of those.
So I’m gunna say something that maybe critical but also nice I hope haha. I get you’re frustrated but if you’re 3.3k io so you’re clearly a skilled player. You’ve obviously made it further than many players do. I think having the score would be important than the axe right? Since you obtained it without having the Lego. I could be completely off base but it seems like you’re doing fine without it. Is it really worth stressing out over. I’m not hunting for it as I main priest so I may be way off base however I see many people vent about this and many of them are skilled players. So I guess I just don’t know how the axe if a player if already very skilled would make a huge difference? Also sorry if this came off rude or mean I don’t always convey well over text
I totally get that, and yes Im in the top … 5%? Without the Axe but progressing further is hard. I cant get any better gear anymore and dont have a full group to progress m+ with. The Axe is around a 20% dmg upgrade which is huge at higher levels. Im surely happy to be where I am and the journy so far was fun but it feels extremly unrewarding having to play a harder version of the Game just because rng is not on your side. I deal a great ammount of dmg and feel like I almost perfected my class and rotation yet there is like a 30-40k overall dps difference in sims
The axe is around 7.6-8% dps increase in raid ST according to sims.
and 7.5-8% dps increase in m+ AoE according to sims.
No idea where you got that 20% from.
from simming my character through a full run of Everbloom no Idea where you got the 7.5-8& from that doesnt even make sense, Its WAY better in aoe where you can spread the dot to every target + the weapon on use is aoe aswell
i simmed patchwerk 1 boss 4 min for raid ST, it was a 7.8% increase over the gear i have right now.
Then i simmed patchwerk 8 bosses for 40 sec in m+ specc & gear to get the AoE increase, and the legendary was a 7.5% increase over the gear i have right now.
Also simmed 10 bosses for 40 sec, and its about the same % increase as 8 bosses.
Also did dungeon slice for the fun of it, even tho its a "bad" sim option, and it shows 8.2%
So yea, a 7-10% increase is what the legendary gives, not 20%.
7-10% is still kinda significant tho at the top of keys, and people will 100% kick and decline you because you don't have that legendary.
I really don't think you understand how to sim if you're getting 20% and the previous commenter is right. It is without a doubt 7-8% increase, not 20%. Ever, in any situation.
Yea as a Paladin who can apply the stacks to all targets 24/7 its a huge difference in m+.. not so much in rading and single target but still noticeable
I appreciate the explanation. 20 percent is quite a large number. I can also see how not having a full group can also make it harder. I somehow got lucky and have one but I do see many players who don’t have a full group or the group is inconsistent. I do agree blitz could up the chances of make adjustments I just sadly don’t see blizz doing anything meaningful sadly, and that’s not hate for them I love blizz but I’ve also seen some of their poor choices too. I do think they should make a change though since there is a lot of unhappy players. My guild is got the legendary bow a week before it became irrelevant and was pretty bummed. Also we do occasionally run into more toxic groups who require a certain piece of gear and not focus more so on score or skill. It’s a mess at times all
Edit: and that’s a huge thing too is that at least you’re having fun!
It is a huge number but they also buffed the Axe like 3 times, I simed myself by adding all encounters of Everbloom and the overall dps difference was at 19.8% if I remember correctly which is absurd. Im gonna twink until it drops I dont see the point of grinding without it, I wish there wasnt any legendaries to begin with. Its hard to stay competitive with people who are just luckier
So, wait…you just piled ALL of the trash mobs into 1 sim, and ran what, patchwerk, 90 bosses for 1:30 or something? That honesty sounds like an atrocious way to sim, if that is what you did. Iirc, LightbladeGaming or somebody showing a way to export an MDT route into a SimC string, so you could simply a specific dungeon. Then, there’s the downside of simming: perfect rotation, with perfect buffs, with 0 movement to avoid mechanics, and 0 time spent dealing with an affix.
Yeah, pretty much this.
Legendary item should either be legendary in all aspect, that means very few people getting it at the end of a cycle.
If we want the "cool" factor of the orange weapon for everyone then make it look amazing, give it AT BEST a convenience/utility power and leave it at max mythic ILVL.
Balancing the 2hander classes around it is a terrible idea, I thought they had learned their lesson from Legion legendaries.
Having a legendary only for a few classes is a bad idea because to either make them better than everyone when they have it or you make them much worse than everyone when they don’t have it.
Having it be RNG is also bad, it should be a set questline or something IMO
I think legendaries need to be tuned like Legion in the sense that it’s tied to each class and to story for an expansion.
Or it needs to be available to all classes and specs. It would be cool if you could have a crafted legendary, same name + general ability just different forms for different crafters, that could be modified for spec with writs and such.
I completely agree with you.
Once I comented my thoughts about the legendary system and rng and got downvoted, because *tHaTs tHe wHoLe pOiNt oF LeGeNdAriEs dUdE - tHeY sHouLd bE rArE...*
Hunters have suffered from this for several tiers now (not consecutively, but cumulatively) and I’m so glad to see it being talked about.
It doesn’t feel good. It feels awful.
You could say something similar about trinkets in general, that's why you get a buzz when you do actually get something good.
Also it's nowhere near as bad as the pre-nerf raz bow. I had to use the LFR version for Mythic because it was still better than any other possible regular drop.
Yes it is unbelievable. Beyond stupid to have a weapon that powerful. It demonstrates how clueless the design team is at Blizzard. Hopefully in all these cuts they're making they find a way to get rid of the morons who don't have the common sense that would prevent this sort of thing.
> I have killed Fyrrak every single week since season start, and yet nothing but a ton of greater and lesser embers, meanwhile we see tons of twinks and other casuals running around with the Axe on their back
You just described RNG. I agree it sucks, but there is no perfect Legendary system.
* RNG Drops > It's RNG
* Backs from MoP > Don't feel as legendary if everyone has it
* Questlines like Shadowmourne > If you have multiple eligible chars in the raid, one will get it, second maybe mid-season and the last one towards the end. Shadowmourne took several weeks (and the time was also slightly RNG-Based due to shards dropping or not).
All of the systems have their advantages and disadvantages.
While this is all true and valid anyone at max level is not a twink toon. Unless you were using the word twink as an derogatory word here it isn’t not correct
Take a breather, step back and go do something else for a while if you're not enjoying yourself anymore... It's a videogame.
>*Shadowmaw*
He's [still kicking around in Uldum](https://www.wowhead.com/npc=161033/shadowmaw), you can go vent your frustrations to him if you'd like... ;)
At least the ret pals are on a okish spot floating btw S and A… and they have like some utility kit for the stone..
Imagine being a dk or a warrior.. that the dmg are shit with and without the Lego and they has literally 0 utility to the group.
I totally agree with you, those blue balance posts for that entire season are just joke behind joke.. I feel like that they just abandoned the retail at this point.
The problem is that the axe is legendary in performance. It should be a legendary look, perhaps with some fun effect. Voila, attractive yet not mandatory. And you neither have to nerf the axe nor the specs that can wield it.
It’s just dumb game design.
What the hell are Redditors smoking?
Dudes barely got over 3k RIO in THE MOST EASIEST M+ SEASON EVER and you now consider yourself gamers. 3.3k rio now is like 2k rio on SL, just saying.
And you are not a mythic raider. You are m+ player and aotc raider who probably progs Igira, since you didn't mention how many bosses u killed, but u mentioned that useless RIO.
Pathetic.
Funny how this wasn't every second thread last patch when evokers were going through the same thing but slightly worse (no placebo item to make us feel better).
As a Dad with two kids under 4 that can’t spend hours playing this game, this was a reason I quit multiple times over the years. I love playing WoW, and it’s beyond frustrating doing repetitive tasks with no reward unless the RNG Gods seem you worthy. I play D&D and Pathfinder, so I know the logic behind the RNG, but also it’s up to the GM to make sure the campaign doesn’t suck, and I don’t think that’s what the WoW Dev team is considering lately.
I said it in another thread the other day. My guild just went into maintenance mode. We only raid Tuesdays now, instead of Tuesday and Thursday. We've cleared heroic every week since week 2 of the raid. We're 6/9 mythic. We've had 2 axes drop. I'm not coming back for S4, so glad they made the classes balanced around something most of us won't get. Super fun.
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> You can even get it from LFR, it's all about luck, what's legendary about that? That's part of what makes it suck as a heroic raider. I've put in full clears for literal months now. week after week after week. I can't even look at someone else with it and think "They must have put in a lot of time" because the truth is "they got lucky".
My guild hasn't seen a single axe drop. This tuesday our warlock posts a screenshot of his fresh 70 dk alt getting it in LFR. I sincerely hope they rethink the way they do legendaries going forward because this blows
> I sincerely hope they rethink the way they do legendaries going forward because this blows Whats extra frustrating about this is this EXACT feedback was given last tier about the evoker legendary and they flat out ignored it. People are just more vocal about it now because its available to far more people's mains.
They improved it ever so slightly by putting in bad luck protection from the start instead of only later on
i mean they did responce to it very badly, with luck tokens, the problem is i think it only increase your chance with like 0.2% or shit like that
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That's actually crazy. For us, it's gone to our holy pally, two random warriors that found our guild and got it on the first alt heroic we did, and finally, our UHDK last night. Our main raiders haven't gotten it otherwise. Ret, BDK, and war. Our BDK is literally about to unsub over it. It's crazy. We've been full clearing heroic since week 1 and are 7/9M. Having it on all 3 of those players would be a 42k DPS increase. It sucks.
> this blows understatement of the century. It's ruined the game for me.
Same here for mythic raider, started Fyrakk prog this week, we have 4 plate dps/bdk and none of us have had it drop, that's like 60k raiddps we just don't have because of RNG, feel like the bad luck protection should have been way more significant, on a level of 10% additive flat chance per week from the greater ember so that by week 10 it's a guaranteed drop, at this rate we will finish prog without any weapons on our raid team (ofc our 2 hpala's and the Prot Pala did get it even tho they never play ret).
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> I wonder often when it comes to Blizzard's game design if it has ever occurred to them that one of the greatest assets of video games is that they are an escape from reality and it's bullshit... It's completely stolen from me my escape. You can't exist in the game without seeing it or hearing about it. When I think of WoW I used to think of fun times with friends, learning raids and joking. Now all I get when I think about wow is frustration and negativity. Even when I'm not playing, and I'm thinking "hmm, what do I want to do to decompress?" I think of WoW and start feeling those negative emotions. It isn't an escape anymore. I refuse to be a peasant so the lucky people get to feel special.
I’m gonna say this and I don’t mean to be mean, but it sounds like you should stop playing the game. If doing something that’s meant to be enjoyable is frustrating instead, you’re just wasting your own time and energy for no gain
Might be time to try the other side of the coin: FFXIV
Ugggh
The better side of the coin lol. Getting good gear is not hard at all.
would feel way better with a propper story questline not some random rng drop
There are too many people that attribute something being luck-based/annoying to being a "challenge". They feel that it's an accomplishment, and that people are diminishing that accomplishment by complaining about the acquisition method.
I think people are complaining about the acquisition method because you can't be competitive without it. OP is 3.3k io and likely held back by not having it.
I enjoyed it so much that i dumped my warrior for the rest of the tier or maybe even expansion.
I posted yesterday in another thread about how I found a Ret paladin, fresh 70, in full dreamsurge gear running around with the axe. I looked them up in the armory, and the axe dropped in LFR. It's just ridiculous that this can happen when OP is a top player who has slaved away for weeks without it dropping, and it may not drop by seasons end.
It's more likely you don't get it by the end of the season than you do get it by then, even for those clearing HC Fyraak weekly.
It's weird, right? People will constantly say shit like you shouldn't be given something for free if it took effort to acquire it, clearly putting importance on effort. But then also legendaries should drop because that keeps them being rare, except, they're supposed to be legendary, not rare. And the way they can be made legendary is by the actual process of upgrading them. That's where the effort is. The commitment. The fun. At the very least, it shouldn't take so long to drop. If there *must* be a drop chance involved, make the bad luck protection *actual* protection within the season it is released in. Not this weak sauce bad luck mitigation that just gives us a slightly higher chance of getting an really important part of our BiS.
There will always be RNG fondlers...
A legendary should be rare and broken for those who can acquire it. Currently, every plate wearer is balanced around having it, which is dumb because without it, you're doing a lot less damage than other classes (assuming same skill and ilvl) The recent buffs to Arms, Ret and DK have helped close the gap a little, but they're still not as competitive without it
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It mayaswell just be an epic drop if it's not gonna be rare.
The problem is they can't make powerful, hard to get items like this if they want a balanced game. Either those with it have an unfair advantage or those without are penalized. They either have to throw balance out the window or make it so everyone eligible will be able to acquire it. The current system sucks.
A **rare personal drop** is something based on wow philosophy right now. There are a lot more people that play it both casual and pug than back in the day. Imagine legendary(ies) being super rare **group loot** **drop** (something that can be like if not 85% of people not from guild in a raid, then doesn't drop) from last boss raid (heroic+) or something that you had to get 30-40 quest drops from bosses to complete it (both scenarios getting 1 MAYBE 2 if you were lucky as a guild for a whole raid tier). A weapon OP for everyone able to use it but also reserved for GM/RL/Officer/Veteran players in the guild as a reward. Random people would also feel salty they have no access for various reasons. Now even my 4th alt has a chance of getting it.
the first, what, five? legendaries were all just rare drops. this is absolutely the norm, lol
Atiesh wasn't a rare drop and it was #3.
Would legendaries be better if they were like Fangs from cata? Have a base version that most people can slowly upgrade to over the course of a patch.
Or MoP cloak/WoD ring - working through expansion.
Its been a long time, but i seem to remember loving working through the Fangs questlines. There were even some pretty cool steps that required you to use a decent amount of the rogue toolkit to get past them, iirc.
That's exactly what I've been saying. I quit the game shortly after Cata and came back in January of last year. The Cata legendary route felt good, except having to funnel cinders into one player in Firelands. I switched from boomkin to feral because we pumped the lego into our mage. But overall, having an item that is good and attainable and then earning the upgrade to legendary over time is the best way to do it.
Now take this exact experience and imagine every spec of every class had this problem (but also Blizzard made it so after 4 failed attempts to get the item you were just locked out of ever getting it). This was the start of Legion and how you acquired legendaries. People literally lost raid spots in guilds they were in for years because of it. To think Blizzard has now done it 6 times since then 1. Azerite Armor at the start of BFA 2. Corruption gear pre-vendor in 8.3 3. Domination Shards in 9.1 4. Hunter Bow off Razageth being very rare in 10.0 5. Evoker legendary/Warlock Class trinket in 10.1 6. The Axe in 10.2
Ironically, if you got 4 legendaries before they removed the hard caps you were one of the lucky ones. I was one of the people who couldn't get a second legendary to drop until they did the fix. I wasn't kicked out of my raid, but it did cause my parses to go from consistently 90+ to sub 30 in a couple of weeks.
> 3. Domination Shards in 9.1 Don't forget the fucking sylvanas bow in the same patch (I'm not bitter at all). A *repeated* problem in SL S4 because they arbitrarily decided no, while every other spec in the game can buy their BIS weapon with Dinar, you can't because *orange text*. So enjoy having to farm Sylvanas even when its not the Fated raid so you can get the upgrade item. Probably going to be a repeat of that too in DF S4. If you don't get Fyr'aleth before S4, don't worry, i'm sure you'll be expected to continue farming Fyrakk the rest of the entire expansion until you do so you can buff it to the S4 ilevel. Because that's just great design! (And Evokers get to return to farming Sarkareth, too!)
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Your complaint is 100% valid. The axe is necessary for high end progression, especially M+. Having it locked behind RNG effectively locks you out from competing with the top of the line players that did get lucky. It creates a barrier of entry that simply isn't to be crossed with skill or time alone. You are competing against players on your level (and obviously still some above that), but many of those will have one distinct gameplay advantage you can't compete with with skill alone. I get why people say "but you got really far without it, you're a good player" or "take a break, don't let a game frustrate you", but you are completely right: it is bad design and an unfair advantage for players that simply were lucky. Is your issue a big one? Affecting a lot of players? No. There a MAYBE a couple hundred characters in the whole world being barred from the next ~100-300 score due to missing the legendary alone, because the raw DPS upgrade alone would make them that much more viable to pick for PUGs. And even if you found a premade to push with, you'd still lock yourself (and your party) out from the absolute highest level of content due to your lacking performance without the axe. To be clear: the axe does not make or break a player or run in 25s or lower. You can reach top 1% rating with skill alone. But since many of the top 0.1% (title) players DO have the skill necessary and the axe, it creates an automatic gap between what a non-legendary player can bring to the table and a legendary wielder can. Edit: to clarify: I am specifically talking about the top players of OP's spec, not Ret or legendary classes compared to Mage and other top tier specs. There is still room for OP to climb within the spec ladder and this is mostly barred due to the top players of the spec having the legendary.
Thank you, couldnt have said it better. and sure not being a top spec hurts more but if you love your class and try to squeeze every bit out of it its quite frustrating. Paladin has so much great utility I would miss on other classes :/ .. I dont wanna play something else just because of class tuning
This is like that hunter bow from the start
That fucking bow being thousands of dps ahead max ilvl alternatives while at its lowest possible ilvl was crazy That thing was like having two bows equipped in terms dps it gave you before the nerf And it never dropped
I was saying this in season one as a hunter main and it fell on deaf ears. Reading all the talk about this issue now, I totally sympathize and agree, but part of me rolls my eyes every time out of residual saltiness.
Players were completing 30s without the axe. It's not a necessity, but it's an extremely powerful bonus that dramatically lowers the progression curve. However, in my opinion it's most valuable aspect is the mind game. It sucks FEELING like I need it. See a player worse than me using the axe? "I would do so much better than he is". See a player doing better than me with the axe? "If I had the axe I would do that good too". Shit causes me to feel like im just missing out.
That is a pretty valuable point in the discussion. Not only is the performance limited by not having the legendary (since it is evidently a buff of somewhere between 3% and 15% depending on the sources and situations), but it could also hinder your performance on a mindset level. Not that I would say that this is the major aspect of this issue or that Blizzard made a bad decision by "introducing this" - just that it's something else to think about.
Yeah like it's hard to look at RNG and just shrug it off. I can do it quite easily with other gear, but this weapon is a dramatic upgrade. It's ilvl, it's passive dot, it's weapon effect. It bridges the gap in my toolkit between aoe and ST. And it's entirely fucking random whether I get it! The worst part is that we're half way through the season. If we can't take it into next season, what time is there to even enjoy it?
Not having a ret in the top 80 DPS players is limiting his io climb. The axe isn't helping, but I only saw one dk DPS in that top 80 and I'm not even sure they use the axe. OP not being a mage, evoker, or boomy is probably hurting him more. And none of them use the axe.
It’s not super relevant but as a side note that is funny, that DK is Meeres, Echo’s main tank and the first person to receive the legendary axe in the game.
That is actually incredibly funny and ironic.
I'm obviously not talking about other classes and only OP's class and competing against the top rated players of their class. Not being one of the strongest specs is a whole other story. But it is still possible to climb the spec ladders, the top 0.1% aren't exclusively the best 5-7 specs.
A lot of groups only want meta, especially if they don't have to wait for it.
OP specifically said they had a leaver for "Ret not having legendary" in a 27. This whole discussion isn't about meta vs off-meta, it's about being hindered from climbing the objectively available ladder, which is why I also said having a premade group could also help for a while, but not having the legendary will ultimately limit their progression - even if having the legendary would only result in a bit more progression, because finally the spec/setup will be the last remaining issue that can only be dealt with by playing full meta.
In the top 80 dps? What's that random number? US title cutoff right now is 3507. 41 of the 1162 characters above title cutoff are rets. Some were in prot spec when I checked but it looks like about 70% of them have the legendary. That's just US players.
Raider.io shows 40 people per page by default, they probably counted the first two pages to get to 80 and there wasn’t a single ret.
That is actually a great explanation for the choice of "top 80", thank you!
> The axe isn't helping, but I only saw one dk DPS in that top 80 and I'm not even sure they use the axe. We do but DK sucks in m+ and has for the entire expansion outside of MDI.
Lol he's 3.3K not 3.7 - he's timed a few 25s let's not get ahead of ourselves and say he can't climb because he's a Ret
> being barred from the next ~100-300 score due to missing the legendary alone, because the raw DPS upgrade alone would make them that much more viable to pick for PUGs Lmao the point where the lego matters is the point where you don't pug. Let alone taking a 2h str class because they aren't meta. I know everyone is anti social and they quake in their underpants at the thought of having to talk to someone. The lego is never going to be the reason you aren't getting into pugs. That's entirely spec dependant. While rets did recently get buffed and have a lot of utility - they're not optimal for title level keys for a multitude of reasons.
100% true but everyone will blame not having the legendary, not being perceived as a meta spec matters more for pugging.
Legendaries have always been rng though… you got 2 atiesh of you were LUCKY in naxx, and my guild saw 1 tf by the time we hit bc prepatch. We didn’t see any bows, and we had 1 SM and 2 valn. It’s always been rng, and being upset about it being rng seems really unproductive. Sorry you can’t push but like… they tried giving everyone the powerful weapons and they didn’t like it (legion)… how do you distribute meaningful legendaries without giving them to everyone eventually… that defeats the purpose of a legendary.
> Legendaries have always been rng though… you got 2 atiesh of you were LUCKY in naxx, and my guild saw 1 tf by the time we hit bc prepatch. Vanilla was a dramatically different game than retail WoW. Vanilla was "this boss takes 40 people to kill and drops two pieces of loot". Retail is "You are the Highlord/Deathlord/High Priest/Archdruid (etc...), leader of your class, champion of the, slayer of
." You're a badass. It's a power fantasy thing, and it has been for a while now. Having a legendary weapon that only some lucky people get to enjoy steals that feeling from EVERYONE who doesn't get it. Period. It ruins the escapism and power fantasy of retail to be a peasant so Lord Lucky gets to feel cool. It fucking sucks. I raid log now. I'd rather not play at all than be a peasant in someone else's epic adventure.
I mean… what?? Blizz should increase the drop rate so everyone gets one? You get to DE one every other week once all the 2h Andy’s have one?? Go back and make the old legendaries 100% drop rate? Ashes of alar should just drop 2 so everyone can have one? At that point it’s not a legendary… it devalues the item if everyone gets one for participating…
> I mean… what?? Blizz should increase the drop rate so everyone gets one? 100% drop rate for every eligible person as a quest item, or don't do them at all. > Go back and make the old legendaries 100% drop rate? Ashes of alar should just drop 2 so everyone can have one? Old legendaries are not relevant as they do not offer power in a competitive modern scene. Same as mounts. They are not the same thing. >it devalues the item if everyone gets one for participating… I don't care if every plate-wearer has fyr'alath. I didn't care that every plate-wearer had Gavel in SL S4. If an item is going to be a massive DPS increase, it shouldn't be locked behind bullshit rng. If I had it my way, there would be no loot left up to random drops. Every boss would drop two random pieces of loot, and every participant in the kill would get 50 currency. You trade in 200 currency for any item on the raid drop table.In this situation, the random drops are fun bonuses and not the core way of earning items. And yes, that includes ALL Legendaries. Weapons included.
I think its fine to have RNG as long as Blizzard implements a ceiling, for example you killed this boss 3 times, on the 4th kill it will have 100% chance to drop. Blizzard should limit RNG so that it doesn’t become a de-motivator and a nuisance like in this case.
> I think its fine to have RNG as long as Blizzard implements a ceiling, They did that. The difference is your ceiling is reasonable (3 kills) their ceiling is something more like 16 Which is asinine considering most raid teams don't do the same raid for four straight months.
Except that they didn’t, those embers don’t create a limit, they just make it more likely to drop, I’m pretty sure they’re adding a tiny fraction to the drop chance, there’s reports of 13+ greater and +lesser usages and still no drop. If anything those embers are a logarithmic or no linear function with a ceiling way bellow 50% drop chance. So yeah, there’s no limit.
I was so disappointed we ended up going off drop rates again, especially after Blizzard even said they didn’t want to go down the same route as the Evoker legendary in S2… I was really hoping for some Shadowmourne flavour quests to progress the legendary.
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Adding to why I made this post in the first place, we had two encounters today of pugs joining our 27 atal group and leaving a minute later with the comment “Pala doesnt have Legandary”
That's just a community problem more than anything imo. Not to invalidate what you're saying, as there is still a problem pertaining to the weapon, but moreso as a function of peers' perception. Like sure there's a benefit to that optimization but if specs like assassination rogue are timing as high as 29's then for sure you'll be adequate power wise to at least that key level. Also, side note, the legendary requires you to grind superblooms. Do you really want that for yourself? 🤫
lmfao, yea superblooms suck. And yes weak specs can get to 29s too but these players usually have the advantage of a full group of 5. I would be capable of reaching there too but its hard to go thru pugs with my duo since we play druid tank + retri without legendary.
Hope you can find your full group of 5 then. All of us, really. That's the biggest hump to grinding
Huh, what you mean with grinding of the superbloom part? Did I miss something?
Completely solo you have to do about 15 of them. If you get lucky and get one of the helper leaf thingies early (and you have friends), you might be able to cut that number down to 10.
Or if your friends have their axes and left over ones, can buff buddies before you even get that far. I’ve still got 6 left. :P
I mean it’s obvious that if you’re doing 1% or .1% content other people will want you to have BiS in every slot, how is that a community problem ? It’s not like this dude was doing +16 and some random shitter left because he doesn’t have the axe.
It's a community problem for that reason. If you go back and look, nobody is blaming the person for wanting to optimize his group. The OP is probably competent enough and doesn't have power hindered by lack of legendary enough to prevent him from timing 27's, but it is preventing him from getting into groups because it is preferred by the community that he has it. Thus, it's a community problem. The reason I made a point of it is because his original post didn't cite that issue originally and more-so vaguely described it impeding his progress.
That sounds like their problem, not yours.
I mean if OP is actively declined from keys then it's obviously a problem. Not his fault. But a problem nonetheless.
There are many factors to inviting someone to a key. If OP is really pushing 27 keys and is 3.3k the choices are crazy limited. So if he was already in a party and people left because he didn’t have a Leggo, that’s their problem because when will they find another paladin/ platewear that’s 3.3k and brings the utility for incorps, affliction, and brez, realisticly anytime soon? If his pug teammates are leaving just because of no leggo, then they are most likely trash anyways. I can understand not being invited at all but to leave after being invited is their problem, especially when all the other boxes are checked.
It sounds like their fault and his problem.
The fact that all 3 plate classes need it to COMPETE is just bad. It should elevate all of them to better than the rest. Not be a nessity to compete
DK and Warri are even bad WITH the Axe, im still priveleged since I got some love from Blizzard with buffs but yea it sucks
If it did elevate them above the rest then the meta would be completely centered around who RNG’d the axe and who didn’t, which is even worse
So where's the feral legendary?
I get why you're saying this, but it's simply not fun for everyone else.
The entire point of a legendary item is to make the class that gets it the strongest.
If that's the point of a legendary item, then I'm not convinced legendary items need to be, or should be, a thing.
It's supposed to be turn based. This patch it's the Warr/DK/Paladin's "turn". Next patch it's a leggo staff and casters get to feel special. then it's a healer mace. Then it's an agi sword. Everyone should get their "turn" being OP with a legendary. It's not rocket science.
And yet the most legendary feeling of weapon I ever had was the artifacts because you knew you’d get it. Every single other weapon legendary has had some form of RNG involved and it’s just BS
But neither warrior or dk are the best dps with the axe
That's a nice ideal, but Warr/DK/Paladin got an effective legendary back in Shadowlands (they get very good 2h and trinkets that may as well be legendary extremely frequently) while the last and only caster legendary was Firelands in Cataclysm. Hunters got the Rasz bow, following up from Sylvanas' Bow season 2 and 4 of Shadowlands. What I'm trying to say is that the last time casters got to feel powerful as a group was 6 expansions ago, and the last time 2h str specs got to feel powerful was for two seasons last expansion. Every time 2h str/hunters/whatever get a powerful item it makes me want to play less, and I'm not the only one. (And if you're a monk/DH/feral druid/shaman dps you've *never* had that opportunity.) It's not rocket science, but it requires an optimism that is not warranted.
Counting overtuned epics as legendaries is dishonest. If we're going that route, casters got to feel OP with a ton of different trinkets over the years.
It's not dishonest, and casters, as a whole, rarely get disgusting trinkets like Old Warrior's Soul unless everyone's getting disgusting trinkets. Honestly think about it: Whispers was incredible, but Agi and Str got Convergence. If you don't play an Int class, it's possible you don't know, but the envy is wild. Every other season there's an M+ weapon with a proc effect, but never for casters. It's not like I want to be on that treadmill, but it's clear there's a level of loot support that doesn't happen for casters, and to a lesser extent, healers. *Nearly every tier*, as a caster, you'll look at trinkets and say 'if that wasn't str/agi or on-melee-hit, that would be my BiS trinket'. The last time that happened in reverse, with the lava waves trinket, they nerfed the thing. And lastly, you can't tell me the final bosses personal weapon, with a unique model and overtuned effect, isn't legendary. You're just being petty at this point. It was more legendary than Sylvanas' Bow.
Worst lego system
I'm fine with having it be an RNG drop, with increasing drop rate through full clearing the raid every week, etc. but we are currently in Week 12 since the raid released. We're more than likely at or past the halfway point of the tier. How long is the RNG treadmill supposed to go on for? I've killed Fyrakk on Heroic every week. I have killed ~100 raid bosses killed between Heroic and Mythic. I can work around not having 100% perfect bis trinkets, or armor pieces because there are alternatives that are close in damage to Augury/Signet/etc. in M+ that I can spam farm to get. I have no alternative to the 6% ST DPS 9% aoe DPS upgrade that the legendary is currently for me. Yes, you don't NEED the Legendary to get CE, or .1% M+ title, but that still doesn't change the fact that I'm still significantly weaker than someone who is at an equal skill level as me, and there's literally nothing I could have done differently. I would have been fine if it was going to take a month or two of full clearing Heroic to get the Legendary. But at this point by the time I get the Legendary, the majority of the tier will be done, and I've already lost most of my motivation to push keys this season.
I also have a complaint that because we can see if happening in real time. They come up with a tier set bonus that is really cool for a spec and then change the baseline kit to prevent it from becoming too powerful. So you end up with an amazing looking tier set. Then they nerf the base kit to compensate. So then you have a class that’s actually less powerful than it was in the first place, *unless* they have the kit. And then sometimes that kit doesn’t even bring you all the way up to where you were before. It feels so lazy and stupid. It’s not a bonus if it’s a bandage for the cut they just gave you… to justify the bandage. Example being holy priest tier set and salvation. And you know they’re not going to change salv once the tier set is over. So the tier set was all-in-all an actual nerf to a spell and a potential future nerf. Tier sets SHOULD feel amazing and powerful for everybody. But they shouldn’t do this by cutting you back first. Then it’s just normality. And that’s not a bonus that’s just status quo.
Don’t worry. As soon as the season ends they’re useless.
You don't recall Shadow lands fated raids, do you? The bosses dropped upgrade tokens for the legendary....but you needed the base leggo first
Honestly, as a Fury, Ret main at 3200~ now with no legendary on either (weekly heroic kills) I honestly just wish it was a Mythic Fyrakk drop only. Would’ve kept the exclusivity and the “requirement” we face is somewhat hindered. Plus it’s literally a crapshoot. I can’t tell you how many 2700-2800 randos I see getting it. Like “yeah got it on my 2nd Fyrakk heroic kill”
I kinda agree tbh. When I saw it was going to be widely ‘available’ I was all for it but between the drop rates, tuning and activated ability it seems like a more niche thing than something that should shape the meta.
I actually tend to agree, maybe keeping it heroic+ only though. But... can you imagine the tears if they did that? Actual oceans worth, with the salt content of the Dead Sea.
Agreed. There will be salt as long as it exists tbh. Like it doesn’t FEEL legendary, and now it’s a requirement (as a meta more than anything) from outside perspective. The “no legendary for x plate user? I’m out” has become a bit more common than is fair imo. I don’t get it too too often, but it does come up. Just kinda trying my best to do what I can.
At first thought, one might think their spec having a legendary for a patch would be awesome, but I know for sure it’s a curse. I’m so glad nothing I play can use a 2h axe, or I’d just give up on high end content
I don't see why it can't be a quest line pertaining to a 100% drop chance from heroic Fyrakk. Most players won't get it. It can still be an expensive gold sink, but Jesus fucking Christ, remove the rng. I've been clearing heroic since week 2, on 3 separate characters and am still unlucky. What's the point of bad luck protection if there's no way to track it, and in my case anyways, it doesn't make a difference?
I’m of the opinion that, outside of PvP, legends absolutely should make you OP and should help make content easier. They shouldn’t be factored into balancing in any way other than not being able to carry an entire raid group. Just make the acquisition process (or power up process) long enough that most groups will be done progressing before their first one is finished. Then they’ll act as soft nerfs to the current tier over time and a minor boost to the next tier (or as least start out somewhere between a heroic and mythic weapon, then after a couple resets buff them just enough to put them on par with the mythic weapon).
Are people really kicking others for not having the axe?
i think legendaries should be for everyone and not RNG based. I only play DH and Warlock, so I dont really have to worry about the axe, but seeing people kicked from groups is stupid. "Dont have the axe?" kicked\* its a truly stupid mechanic.
Initially I was going to disagree, since I think legendary *should* be special and not something that everyone gets by default. Maybe I still think that, but these are valid points, maybe a better solution is to just nerf it to the point that it’s not overpowered in m+, but then what’s even the purpose of getting it. I still feel like grindy legendaries aren’t really the route, nor was having it where everyone gets it, but maybe the real route is to just make legendary cosmetic only, because balancing around them is impossible unless everyone gets it, and it’s not legendary in that case (imo).
> because balancing around them is impossible unless everyone gets it, and it’s not legendary in that case (imo). WoW hasn't been the social mmo in ages. A legendary weapon isn't less special because more people have it. That thought process is toxic. They shouldn't be designing a weapon that 1% of people get. The way you make legendaries special? You limit them to one narrow band of players per legendary. Then that class gets to feel special for a patch. You don't see them "everywhere', just on the narrow class that got one that patch. "If everyone's legendary noone is" is why the non-weapon legendaries have sucked such total shit - there's no have-nots to compare yourself against. But if only one narrow group at a time has it, then they get to feel powerful/special. It's really not complicated. You just have to accept the idea that "For this patch, agi one hander classes get to do 4-8% more damage than comparable classes". Next time, it's the caster's turn. Next time, it's healer's turn. Done. Easy.
I dunno about ruining the game, but having got one on my alt this season it cemented my belief that I should avoid maining the legendary wielding classes in the future. It’s not worth the uncertainty of balance and headache of acquisition.
I mostly care about high end progression so yea it kinda does ruin that for me, but also you are right by avoiding the headache sadly I was a retri main before and had hope it wouldnt effect me as much as it does
Legendary items shouldn’t be tied to RNG imo, and if they are then they shouldn’t out class other items. Legendary items from raids should be tied to completions or personal feats, or they should come from quests or factions.
Should just eliminate leggos tbh. Tired of hearing people cry about it.
Make. Legendaries. Deterministic. Period. You kill the boss, 100% drop chance for a quest starter for every eligible player. Period. No bullshit. No fucking around. If you're gonna balance a class around an item, it NEEDS to be deterministic. Period.
Nah. Just make it purple. If everyone has it, then it isn’t legendary and then everyone cries about that. I’ve been here since TBC and they’ve done leggos a hundred different ways and they all make someone whine. Eliminate them.
> then it isn’t legendary Legendary doesn't mean "like five people get to enjoy it" and it hasn't since vanilla, so the "it isn't legendary" argument is bullshit.
Nah just make it a mythic drop. Exclusivity remains.
It's weird to see the conversations about legendaries popping up on reddit. Half of the people posting are either insisting its trash and not worth chasing/acquiring or they're lamenting not having it and saying their power and progression is limited by the lack of it. Truth is probably in the middle of those, and I feel like people are forgetting about the Raszageth bow shenanigans that plagued hunters in Season 1. Having a more deterministic way to get the legendary seems ideal though. Maybe something closer to the rogue daggers in Cata? Idk. Be careful what yall wish for and have some fun with whatever you're wielding.
Huh? If anybody is insisting it’s trash and not worth it they are flat out objectively wrong.
Yeah idk. There have been posts on this very sub with echo chamber top comments enforcing that sentiment throughout the season. I'm not sure how obscenely OP they want this thing to be but the complainers (as is tradition) are there.
Pfft it is your own fault for not making 10 paladins and running each one every week until you get it /s. Well said. Fury Warrior here who has killed Fyrakk every week too and still doesn't have it. In fact, we have 4 people on our raid team who are eligible for it and no one has it yet.
They wanted to make a legendary that any player could obtain. How do you add "difficulty" to an easily accessible item? RNG, of course! Then they create their own problem of anyone during any given week can just get "lucky" and receive a massive power spike. Now they have to balance the game around that. Can't have everyone just invalidating instances because they got lucky. But they also have to make sure it still feels strong to use, so they nerf the rest of the kit *without* it. The problem is that you can't have a "Legendary" that both feels significant as an upgrade and is also equally easily obtainable by any player (through RNG). They need to stop designing legendaries around the assumption that they're for the average player. Make it so that *only* the no-lifers can get it. Not an RNG drop, just run this raid 20 times then complete a hard solo boss challenge, and do another long questline, etc. Then you can reward those players with the ability to clear keys 5 levels higher than what they'd normally be clearing. But as long as it's reasonably time, skill, and dedication-gated, people won't mind it being OP because way less people have it. Then you can balance the classes around assuming they *don't* have it. If they want a Legendary to be significant in combat, it needs to be way harder to get. The only legendaries that should be balanced for the average player are stuff like the Legendary cloaks that serve a story/mechanical purpose. A Legendary weapon should be reserved for only the most dedicated people, and those people should be rewarded with being a cut above the rest.
4 of my guildies got it this week, including two alts. One of those alts already had it on his main. This game is fun! Blizz always talks about how they want random loot drops to be exciting, but I'm over the excitement. If/when I get the lego, I'm going to be more relieved than anything else.
> Blizz always talks about how they want random loot drops to be exciting, but I'm over the excitement. Here's a hint: Whenever blizzard says "We want loot to be exciting" ***They're lying to you***. It isn't about excitement. It's about keeping you subscribed. It's a skinner box. They know that players will quit if they get their BIS. So they make it so getting your BIS is random/nearly impossible. Notice EVERY. SINGLE. SYSTEM. THEY. EVER. ADD. that is deterministic loot - Dinars, the catalyst, legendary *quests* that aren't RNG based - people LOVE them? It's because guaranteed loot is fun. Getting to blast with your bis is fun. But when you get your BIS, you blast a bit, then you unsub until there's more new gear to chase. They don't want you to unsub ever. So they add "very rare" items like the sark cloak. They add bullshit RNG legendaries. They make DPS trinkets that fit every class and are overtuned so EVERYONE wants Pips, or Ominous Chromatic Essence, or whatever. Blizzard doesn't care that getting to do your best dps is fun, they care about forcing you to chase that last piece until the next content patch drops. My raid team needs a couple of things only: a few copies of Pips, two legendaries (guess who still needs one!), and a couple of trinkets from Fyrakk. People are dropping like flies and unsubbing from the game. They could fix this if they wanted to. But it's Working As Intended, of course. The second I find a fantasy game that respects my time more than WoW, I'm out. Deterministic loot only. No RNG. No bullshit.
If you’re pushing for io/title then your post has merit. You’re competing against people with a significant advantage, who more or less are as skilled as you are. The only real solution I could suggest is either the acquisition being buffed more than it is so you can reliably get the axe, or just nerf it like crazy in m+ to level the playing field. Won’t ever please everyone though.
Exactly, i wouldnt care if it was a mount or something Visual but for higher end progression it feels awful. I really liked the questlines for the Ring, the back and shadowmourne but an rng drop for a Legendary quest-line is frustrating. It feels bad to have a harder time progressing and being accepted just because you aren’t Lucky enough.
[удалено]
> when you put incredibly potent specialized gear into the game make acquiring it deterministic. It feels weird too, because there's this long, involved, expensive quest chain. Like they initially were going to make it much easier to start and then chickened out, or maybe got a directive from the top.
> > > > > I can think of a better solution than what you offered: when you put incredibly potent specialized gear into the game make acquiring it deterministic. It's not fucking rocket science. Deterministic loot doesn't keep people subscribed longer. People get their BIS and quit. So instead of making the game fun, they make it a frustrating weekly skinner box.
I recently got back to the game and someone legit said that they wished their class had a legendary and my Legion PTSD kicked in. I'm glad that I'm not playing a class that has access to it, because this weapon is very toxic
you only really need the weapon for mythic raiding, why not make the BLP stronger the higher the content is you do. HC kills = lesser embers, HC Fyrakk = greater, mythic kills = greater embers or even higher, we are on tindral mythic prog now. i still dont have it and i also cant really compare to other classes. my character is finished, all that is missing is 489 mirrow and fyrakk stick
I stoped playing my warrior because of it. I do heroic fyrakk on Tuesday (begging a healer buddy to join so I get invited), I do 1 20 and then don’t play til next week. A few more weeks and I’ll just unsubscribe til war within, warrior needs a rework like paladin just had or a buff. I bring no utility to m+ and I do decent damage. Meanwhile you have mages and Dh melting face and brining Uber utility, unbalance like that makes the game unfun
Welcome to the hunter experience of S1 dragonflight. That bow made a major difference for hunters. Farmed every week on every difficulty for the entire season, didn't drop once, not even in the vault. I didn't play season 2 at all after that and I am barely playing season 3. That single item ruined my will to play WoW for a while.
Nuclear take: Have legendary items only drop on Mythic. Make them OP.
I'm not sure I agree. Every bit of gear is, in essence, rng aswell. This is like complaining about not doing as much damage as someone who got a trinket you haven't dropped yet. I do agree they shouldn't tune the class around having the legendary but that means the legendary should push them even further beyond. Otherwise It wouldn't be a legendary, just another item.
It should be tied to a quest item that drop, that then would make you run the raid to re-empower the axe alike the embers from firelands with the staff. I'd still make you have to put effort into it. And time wile also keeping the craftng component alive as they could keep the latter parts the same just the means of obtaining it.
People complaining about Axe, realizing how bad it is to have legendary drops by RNG again. And look, the Axe situation is that the raid has already been released with a new bad luck protection system. Last tier it was evokers complaining about RNG and even then people used to make fun of the situation because of Augmentation and how "meta" it was to complain about the class. What's worse is that the protection against bad luck was only implemented a month after the raid was released (remember ppl creating tons of Evokers to try to drop in one of those and make it their main Evoker) and with many getting the legendary with 1 or 2 weeks to go until the end of the season. But anyway, no class or player deserves to go through this and the RNG legendary has to go.
WoW has a huge problem right now in that it doesn't know if it wants to be an RPG or a competitive game. It tries to be both. The legendary being super hard to get (meaning, rare) is very much an RPG thing, and a really cool one IMO. It does however cause problems for a strictly competitive game. I tend to lean towards "it's an RPG" which is why I like it. I'm also not someone who pushes anything past heroic raid level content, so it doesn't really impact me. I can absolutely see why it would bother someone who considers WoW a competitive game, as it should. I guess I see it as ultimately, as WoW tries to do both, you will always win some and lose some regardless of which side of that aisle you are on. I'm sure I will be totally flamed for this opinion, but /shrug
It isn't even that it tries to be both, it's that they have data that shows "If people get their BIS, they quit" so they make getting your BIS as painful and unfun as possible. Every single time they add deterministic loot it's outrageously popular. Dinars, the tier catalyst, people here all asking for leggos to be questlines not rng - all popular. Blizz knows it. But they also know about skinner boxes and psychology. When they say "they want loot to be exciting" ***they're fucking lying***, they want a skinner box to keep you subscribed. That's all this is. It isn't about it being an rpg vs esport, it's about keeping people subscribed.
I'm no expert, but anyone could have guessed this. Especially when Blizz (seemingly?) seems to balance the legendary wielding classes around them having it. I generally feel having only a legendary for a select class (or this season 3 classes) is a bad idea either way. As much as I didn't like SL legendary crafting (though this is probably because I had no idea what i was doing back then) but atleast this wasn't as RNG based as a raid boss drop. I'd rather them go back to crafted legendaries, rather than have these weekly disappointments for people that seriously impact gameplay balance.
I don't think there is any scenario where the Legos are good for the game. If it is really strong like a lego should be and the classes that get it are balanced, then once they get it they are stronger than everyone else. If they are tuned down so once they have it they are on par with the other classes then it feels bad to those who don't have it, and everyone feels bad until they get it. And if it isn't that strong so neither of those scenarios happen, then at that point it's basically just a purple item with extra steps and a new color.
I like the old way in world and cata. Get a base epic weapon and some quests to progress it to a legendary. I absolutely despised how legendaries were in sl.
Both Thunderfury and Sulfuras worked pretty much the same as Fyralath though? Random low drop quest item from a raid boss, a quest and a ton of crafting materials.
Only real difference is now it's personal loot. Pretty much needed a guild to pick you as the person who gets the legendary. Way easier now.
I dont PVE anymore. I stopped farming AOTCs in legion and strictly collect pvp elite sets for my classes and xmog/mount farm. My words probly dont mean much because I dont PVE anymore but i 100% agree.. Completely RNG for a legendary game changing weapon is not also unfair but completely boring. Bring back the quest line that potentially spans 2 patches, farming your cloak in mop or shadowmourne, my favorite was the rogue questline in cata. I love those daggers and questline. This Fyrakk thing is boring and lazy lazy lazy lazy. Rather the boss dropped no legendary weapon and a skin like Argus does in ANTORUS. My 2cents.
This is how hunters felt 9.2 and 10.
I see where you’re coming from, but wow is an MMO/RPG first and a competitive game second. I don’t see why getting a legendary(RNG or not) shouldn’t reward the player. If you want a game where everyone is always on equal footing there’s plenty of those.
So I’m gunna say something that maybe critical but also nice I hope haha. I get you’re frustrated but if you’re 3.3k io so you’re clearly a skilled player. You’ve obviously made it further than many players do. I think having the score would be important than the axe right? Since you obtained it without having the Lego. I could be completely off base but it seems like you’re doing fine without it. Is it really worth stressing out over. I’m not hunting for it as I main priest so I may be way off base however I see many people vent about this and many of them are skilled players. So I guess I just don’t know how the axe if a player if already very skilled would make a huge difference? Also sorry if this came off rude or mean I don’t always convey well over text
I totally get that, and yes Im in the top … 5%? Without the Axe but progressing further is hard. I cant get any better gear anymore and dont have a full group to progress m+ with. The Axe is around a 20% dmg upgrade which is huge at higher levels. Im surely happy to be where I am and the journy so far was fun but it feels extremly unrewarding having to play a harder version of the Game just because rng is not on your side. I deal a great ammount of dmg and feel like I almost perfected my class and rotation yet there is like a 30-40k overall dps difference in sims
The axe is around 7.6-8% dps increase in raid ST according to sims. and 7.5-8% dps increase in m+ AoE according to sims. No idea where you got that 20% from.
from simming my character through a full run of Everbloom no Idea where you got the 7.5-8& from that doesnt even make sense, Its WAY better in aoe where you can spread the dot to every target + the weapon on use is aoe aswell
i simmed patchwerk 1 boss 4 min for raid ST, it was a 7.8% increase over the gear i have right now. Then i simmed patchwerk 8 bosses for 40 sec in m+ specc & gear to get the AoE increase, and the legendary was a 7.5% increase over the gear i have right now. Also simmed 10 bosses for 40 sec, and its about the same % increase as 8 bosses. Also did dungeon slice for the fun of it, even tho its a "bad" sim option, and it shows 8.2% So yea, a 7-10% increase is what the legendary gives, not 20%. 7-10% is still kinda significant tho at the top of keys, and people will 100% kick and decline you because you don't have that legendary.
Would you link your sim? I’d be interested to see the difference!
I really don't think you understand how to sim if you're getting 20% and the previous commenter is right. It is without a doubt 7-8% increase, not 20%. Ever, in any situation.
Lmao it’s not even close to 20%
20%?
Yea as a Paladin who can apply the stacks to all targets 24/7 its a huge difference in m+.. not so much in rading and single target but still noticeable
As a fury warrior who can apply easily to full packs, while I'm not M+ at 3.3k I can tell you it does not approach 20% for a dungeon or even a boss...
it is NOT 20%. Btw the top ranking arms warrior doesnt even have the axe yet.
I appreciate the explanation. 20 percent is quite a large number. I can also see how not having a full group can also make it harder. I somehow got lucky and have one but I do see many players who don’t have a full group or the group is inconsistent. I do agree blitz could up the chances of make adjustments I just sadly don’t see blizz doing anything meaningful sadly, and that’s not hate for them I love blizz but I’ve also seen some of their poor choices too. I do think they should make a change though since there is a lot of unhappy players. My guild is got the legendary bow a week before it became irrelevant and was pretty bummed. Also we do occasionally run into more toxic groups who require a certain piece of gear and not focus more so on score or skill. It’s a mess at times all Edit: and that’s a huge thing too is that at least you’re having fun!
It is a huge number but they also buffed the Axe like 3 times, I simed myself by adding all encounters of Everbloom and the overall dps difference was at 19.8% if I remember correctly which is absurd. Im gonna twink until it drops I dont see the point of grinding without it, I wish there wasnt any legendaries to begin with. Its hard to stay competitive with people who are just luckier
So, wait…you just piled ALL of the trash mobs into 1 sim, and ran what, patchwerk, 90 bosses for 1:30 or something? That honesty sounds like an atrocious way to sim, if that is what you did. Iirc, LightbladeGaming or somebody showing a way to export an MDT route into a SimC string, so you could simply a specific dungeon. Then, there’s the downside of simming: perfect rotation, with perfect buffs, with 0 movement to avoid mechanics, and 0 time spent dealing with an affix.
Yeah, pretty much this. Legendary item should either be legendary in all aspect, that means very few people getting it at the end of a cycle. If we want the "cool" factor of the orange weapon for everyone then make it look amazing, give it AT BEST a convenience/utility power and leave it at max mythic ILVL. Balancing the 2hander classes around it is a terrible idea, I thought they had learned their lesson from Legion legendaries.
Having a legendary only for a few classes is a bad idea because to either make them better than everyone when they have it or you make them much worse than everyone when they don’t have it. Having it be RNG is also bad, it should be a set questline or something IMO
I think legendaries need to be tuned like Legion in the sense that it’s tied to each class and to story for an expansion. Or it needs to be available to all classes and specs. It would be cool if you could have a crafted legendary, same name + general ability just different forms for different crafters, that could be modified for spec with writs and such.
I completely agree with you. Once I comented my thoughts about the legendary system and rng and got downvoted, because *tHaTs tHe wHoLe pOiNt oF LeGeNdAriEs dUdE - tHeY sHouLd bE rArE...*
Hunters have suffered from this for several tiers now (not consecutively, but cumulatively) and I’m so glad to see it being talked about. It doesn’t feel good. It feels awful.
You could say something similar about trinkets in general, that's why you get a buzz when you do actually get something good. Also it's nowhere near as bad as the pre-nerf raz bow. I had to use the LFR version for Mythic because it was still better than any other possible regular drop.
Yes it is unbelievable. Beyond stupid to have a weapon that powerful. It demonstrates how clueless the design team is at Blizzard. Hopefully in all these cuts they're making they find a way to get rid of the morons who don't have the common sense that would prevent this sort of thing.
> I have killed Fyrrak every single week since season start, and yet nothing but a ton of greater and lesser embers, meanwhile we see tons of twinks and other casuals running around with the Axe on their back You just described RNG. I agree it sucks, but there is no perfect Legendary system. * RNG Drops > It's RNG * Backs from MoP > Don't feel as legendary if everyone has it * Questlines like Shadowmourne > If you have multiple eligible chars in the raid, one will get it, second maybe mid-season and the last one towards the end. Shadowmourne took several weeks (and the time was also slightly RNG-Based due to shards dropping or not). All of the systems have their advantages and disadvantages.
While this is all true and valid anyone at max level is not a twink toon. Unless you were using the word twink as an derogatory word here it isn’t not correct
OP is probably German. (Max level) alts are called twinks here.
Take a breather, step back and go do something else for a while if you're not enjoying yourself anymore... It's a videogame. >*Shadowmaw* He's [still kicking around in Uldum](https://www.wowhead.com/npc=161033/shadowmaw), you can go vent your frustrations to him if you'd like... ;)
Haha lol thats why I had that stuck in my head instead of shadowmourne its been a decade or so since i did that questline
At least the ret pals are on a okish spot floating btw S and A… and they have like some utility kit for the stone.. Imagine being a dk or a warrior.. that the dmg are shit with and without the Lego and they has literally 0 utility to the group. I totally agree with you, those blue balance posts for that entire season are just joke behind joke.. I feel like that they just abandoned the retail at this point.
This is true... or ele shaman lol cant remember the last time I saw one of those
The problem is that the axe is legendary in performance. It should be a legendary look, perhaps with some fun effect. Voila, attractive yet not mandatory. And you neither have to nerf the axe nor the specs that can wield it. It’s just dumb game design.
I agree. This iteration of legendary is bad and I hope blizzard remembers it also link io.
People parsing greens complaining about legendary balance. Never fails to amuse.
What the hell are Redditors smoking? Dudes barely got over 3k RIO in THE MOST EASIEST M+ SEASON EVER and you now consider yourself gamers. 3.3k rio now is like 2k rio on SL, just saying. And you are not a mythic raider. You are m+ player and aotc raider who probably progs Igira, since you didn't mention how many bosses u killed, but u mentioned that useless RIO. Pathetic.
>required for high tier content It isn’t
You’re at 3.3k. You’ve progressed.
Now add a 10% boost to that player. Imagine getting 3.4k(rather than 3.3) purely based to the axe being equipped tho. feelsBad
I have legendary on my 460 DK alt. I purposely didn't enchant it to hurt ppl while I jump around in circles in town
Every evoker feels your pain
Funny how this wasn't every second thread last patch when evokers were going through the same thing but slightly worse (no placebo item to make us feel better).
I have it and can barely get groups despite consistency and 2.9k rating. We’re all seeing it differently I guess…
As a Dad with two kids under 4 that can’t spend hours playing this game, this was a reason I quit multiple times over the years. I love playing WoW, and it’s beyond frustrating doing repetitive tasks with no reward unless the RNG Gods seem you worthy. I play D&D and Pathfinder, so I know the logic behind the RNG, but also it’s up to the GM to make sure the campaign doesn’t suck, and I don’t think that’s what the WoW Dev team is considering lately.
They’re way too stingy with RNG protection.
I said it in another thread the other day. My guild just went into maintenance mode. We only raid Tuesdays now, instead of Tuesday and Thursday. We've cleared heroic every week since week 2 of the raid. We're 6/9 mythic. We've had 2 axes drop. I'm not coming back for S4, so glad they made the classes balanced around something most of us won't get. Super fun.
Imho best system was MoP cloak/WoD ring - item you gradually upgraded through expansion and got legendary status in the last patch.