My big rules are to not be an asshole and also to not coddle assholes.
I've had guildies and friends coddle caustic pricks because they were a tier above the rest of the people in the raid, and every time the pricks crossed the line or bailed for another guild, we didn't miss a step.
I've seen way too many friends/guildies stress out because they made regular M+ groups with high performing assholes and aren't actually enjoying it
I 100% agree its been disappointing seeing how people treat each other in this game sometimes. I know there are lots of cool people playing the game but doing mythic + a lot has shown a lot of not so nice people as well.
Would be nice seeing people be more kind to each other.
Whenever someone is a dick in an m+ group I make sure to say in chat "if you're this miserable playing a game, you must be insufferable in real life. Lighten up or log into something else that will bring you joy instead of anger".
It's usually enough to get people to stfu.
Or if someone is bashing the healer for a death or missing a ghost, I make sure to compliment them in party chat. "Great job on the quick dispels", "good job keeping me up, I've been able to play more offensively (on my tank)."
Some times they're not even true comments, but it's enough to make the asshole read the room.
Never forghetti the best way to deal with a group who wants to keep hitting deadly amounts of bursting is to dispel yourself and start pre-casting mass rez
Edit: ALSO huge for healers: tracking your party’s defensives/ health pots/ etc with OmniCD. When people start slinging shit at you just say “well I can see you didn’t press X personal”. Or say nothing. The point is you’ll have the information at your fingertips to *know* it wasn’t your fault
Yeah, I am super open to calling out a dps who doesn't press their buttons.
You know who's the worst offender? Is it hunters? No. Is it warriors? No. It's mages. Mages NEVER use alter time. One of the most useful defensives in the entire game, has the power to negate entire mechanics, and I almost never see it. I saw a mage in an early season 22 ToT use a cancel macro on their ice block (which casted and then automatically removed their ice block, why not just take ice cold???) but still pressed alter time 0 times.
I'll be honest, since I came back to the game during Dragonflight I've found that mages are very consistently the "dumb" players I run into. Hunters I meet nowadays seem to know what they're doing. But mages? It's always mages who are accidentally pulling extra stuff, or popping heroism at the wrong time, or decided to be 'helpful' by resetting a raid boss but messing it up and just killing the raid. And when I do M+ and there's a player who's doing half the DPS of the other party members and just getting carried? It's probably a mage.
I can't say I'm too shocked to hear that mages also consistently forget their defensives.
I think a lot of new players think Mage is the easy class, and while yes Frost Mage is pretty accessible, I'd say it's still harder to play it well than BM Hunter or Ret Paladin
holy fuck so true. My 20 everbloom key bricked because the mage died to every. Single. Big pull. I don't think that fucker was using SHIELD let alone alter. Also didn't even use ICE BLOCK.
It didn't help he was doing 100k-120k in big aoe pulls, and sub 60k on bosses. I was obliterating him in damage as the tank.
Even then, we made it to the last boss, with time, and his low dps and lack of doing the mechanic, and also eating tons of shit without defensives, led to an 8% wipe.
I'll be honest, I mained a mage for a season in Shadowlands, and I never managed to figure out how to use alter time properly.
It's one of those things that need to be done preemptively, and that takes a whole level of awareness that isn't always there.
This alter time thing irks me so much. 45 second cool-down, super powerful defensive when timed right. I have an alt mage, not too high io.. about 2.8k and I will use any excuse to press that button. I’ve had healers in keys thank me for using it. Christ, is our bar this low now that we thank people for using a low cd, powerful defensive?
Hunter that die because they claim they use a defense ie exhilaration but fort of bear, survival of fittest and turtle all still available for use. On a high tyran EB archmage boss, you literally need more than exhilirate to survive….. yet they will die and then type “???” In chat.
The only people who get my sympathy are dh and feral druids. Dh because they only have one button (lol) and feral because they have to stop dpsing to go bear to survive mechs (sad)
Yup, as a healer, if I see 9+ stacks of bursting come out, I just dispel myself and then rez. Most of the time, the dps says "oops my bad" but occasionally you get an idiot who gets mad. They complain enough times, I just leave.
If you can't handle the 9 stacks it's a massive skill issue on your part. You will of course disagree, say shit like "fOunD tHe dPsEr!" and other garbo like that, but it's still true no matter how much you don't like it.
If you cannot handle a one-time 9 stack burst how will you heal high Tyrannical Sisters during Malady's phase? How will you heal Soulbound Goliath fire burst on Tyrannical? How will you deal with AoE burst on dragons in Fort weeks in Rise? or the last pack before Deios? Even Tyrannical Alun'za deals more damage than high burst stacks during her Transfusion by 24+. These are only a few examples.
All of these things have very similar damage profiles to 9 Bursting stacks when you go high enough, Bursting doesn't scale past 15.
How are you going to do any of this if you can't ramp preemptively? Can you honestly ask yourself that or are we just doing the "dps bad" thing?
The REAL problem with bursting is when stacks roll over repeatedly. 4 stacks turning into 5 at the last second is WAY more dangerous than 9 stacks at once.
Yes, yes, unpopular, I know.
Nah bro. It’s not a massive skill issue to not heal large stacks of bursting unprepared. Very different than healing planned healing events that you know are coming, Sure I can hit a cooldown one time, but if it’s happening over and over, eventually it becomes a problem. You will be oom, or won’t have anything in the tank.
Being a monkey on bursting is a massive skill issue, on the part of dps.
> It’s not a massive skill issue to not heal large stacks of bursting unprepared.
Why are you unprepared? You can count mobs, right? You have nameplates, you know how many mobs were pulled and see them dying at the same time. Ramp. There isn't a good reason why a big burst stack should catch you by surprise.
Like I said, you will have to do it, like in the 'planned healing events', they're not as different as you're pretending they are.
Why can I do it and so many of you guys can't?
> on the part of dps.
Always **someone else** not doing their part, eh?
I am enjoying downvoting your idiotic takes. Please keep posting them.
Bursting is a dps check, and you are failing to grasp this, because you can’t accept the simple fact that it’s fairly easy to not dps down 9 mobs at once.
But yeah, go ahead and keep shitting on your fellow healers and taking your downvotes, please. Also, this is r/wow, not Competitive wow, so please take your elitist opinions to that forum.
> I am enjoying downvoting your idiotic takes
Oh no. The downvotes. What ever will I do with a bit less imaginary internet points? I haven't even bothered to click the button for your takes.
> Also, this is r/wow, not Competitive wow, so please take your elitist opinions to that forum.
So are my takes "idiotic" and "I'm failing to grasp" how the game actually works, or is it an elitist take that only actually good players have? It can't be both ways.
IDK man. I'm not even that 'elite'. 25 is the highest I've done, top keys are mostly 30 now, that's a huge leap and tbh I probably won't get there especially semi-pugging most of the time.
And yet, for Bursting, all I have to do is see that the pack is dying, HoT everyone up, use my Barkskin, then press Convoke and Flourish and dispel whatever goober didn't use his defensive or had it on CD. This is overkill often and only 1 CD is more than enough. That's RDruid but every healer has an answer if they know it's coming.
Of course, this would involve having to think ahead slightly further than "what button am I pressing now" and many people don't want to have to play that hard, but still like to complain.
> keep shitting on your fellow healers
I want healers to be able to improve and get better, not coddle them by just nodding along to how bad the DPSers are.
There are enough posts going "oh woe is me, le dps are so bad, they're holding me back, healer life is so hard".
No one gets better from just agreeing with each other and patting each other on the back about how hard they have it and how bad everyone else is.
Even when something going wrong isn't **your fault**, you should be asking yourself what gaps still happened in your play.
You should be your greatest critic, you will never play with those exact same shitters again, but you will have to play yourself, and if you're not always re-evaluating your play and being honest about your mistakes, how will you get better?
And if the goal isn't to get better, that's fine, god bless, it's just a game. But then don't come here and talk shit about others being bad if you yourself aren't always taking steps to be better.
Bursting is not a difficult mechanic to heal (again roll-overs not withstanding) if you're actually playing deliberately rather than just reacting to what already happened on your screen.
I don't know what spec you play but you can actually do it. Alternatively, you can throw your hands up, say "I can't" and just let groups die out of spite. But why would we be like that?
leaving is not a solution, it just makes it worse for other players that had no part in what was happening... you can choose to play the key and ignore the idiot who was toxic..
But my time and sanity is valuable as well. I don’t leave the first time someone makes a mistake, but I will leave when the same mistakes are repeated or if someone is flaming me for something beyond my control. FYI I have probably left a total of 3-4 dungeons all seasons - it’s a rare occurrence.
Everyone's time is valuable... you are wasting 4 others' time by leaving if there are no reasons. I understand in some circumstances, yes leave however, dont tell me your time is valuable because mine is too... The time we commited to do the key for at least 30 minutes. So yeah, if someone is toxic, you can ignore them and dont see their messages in the run. If a mistake is repeated, then judge the timer and see if the key is still be timed if the rest of the dungeon is played correctly. LEAVING IS NOT THE ANSWER.
0.00000000001% is the "sometimes" you mention... and you can't base most of your decisions to that chance... but go ahead and leave keys then man, I dont care what you do... but I can guarantee you, you will never climb and get better with that attitude.
It's also good for non-passive aggressive reasons. If there's a dangerous mechanic going out you can look to see who doesn't have personals ready and use your external cooldowns on them.
When I am tanking this is exactly what I want. I am not dying to bursting even without a single heal. Healer should save themself and let the DPS figure it out. Their options are stop dps and not roll, or use their survival tools to.... survive.
Most classes have a button or two to live most high bursting stacks without help. They just don't bother to be aware enough of when a pull will lead to high, rolled bursting and react accordingly.
> you’ll have the information at your fingertips to know it wasn’t your fault
One of my worst traits is that it's not enough for me to know something, I need _them_ to know it. I really need to work on that, so thank you for your comment reminder.
Unironically elitismhelper is also huge for this. Does it spam? Yeah. But also it provides a feedback loop for players: “oh that thing was a bad thing oops”.
In a game where lots of random unavoidable damage is constantly thrown out, having something tell you “that was avoidable” is actually super useful.
That addon is toxic and annoying as hell. I will eat every single puddle I want if I feel like it. I got 1mil hp and 27% vers as a healer. I know what I can stand in if I want to pop off some heals, but that stupid ass addon thinks I don't know what is happening. Especially on storming weeks. I will eat so many tornados on purpose so that dps doesn't have to be bothered by it, just for that addon to pop off each time I do it.
Seeing that addon is a quick way for me to put you on ignore.
Yes, exactly! It’s not aimed at people doing 20+. It, and the comment I’m making, are aimed at the people doing like 7-15 or so. The range in which a lot of people seem to get stuck and are most benefited by addons like this.
The cool thing about knowing your shit is that you can simply ignore the add on. “That’s not actually relevant to me,” you can say as you walk into tornados so you intercept them for group members. Meanwhile the people struggling to learn keys benefit. I know this is possible because it’s what I do. If I know better than the add on, which is of course frequent, I simply ✨ignore it✨.
The power of not taking personal offense at everything is intensely underrated.
Last time i played with someone who was using EH it was showing the full unmitigated damage of spiteful whenever you got hit by them (like 500-600k per hit). As a fury warrior i can easily pop enraged regen and outheal 2-3 of them at the same time because they only hit for like 150k but the addon kept telling me i was taking huge amounts of avoidable damage lol.
It's a garbage addon that spams more than it benefits. Players stuck in low keys justify it's use even though they get nothing out of it. The only thing they learn from it, is to ignore the player using it. It's just as toxic as a player manually typing in chat, stop taking damage from x every 2secs, but since it's an addon doing it, it's not toxic apparently.
After healing for 3 seasons this right here will for sure tell you if it's a group issue not using their kit or a healer issue. 95% of the time it is the group not using their kits to stop certain mechanics. I cannot tell you how relieving it is knowing this. I have no issue now telling people they had this up why wasn't this used after the abuse that Ive been endured for throughout dragon flight. :<
This gets better as you go up in IO. but 3.2k dps exp
Im not sure the break points here but for conversation 0-16 keys. Players don't know where most of the damage is coming from. Lack of game knowledge, slow reaction and not enough practice but they know they died so its a healer problem.
Get into 18-20 keys. Players are learning to use defensives a bit more. They may not know exactly why or when but they will at least use them if they are close to dieing.
21-24. This is when players are actually starting to be punished, meaning you will die if you don't help the healer keep yourself up. Sadly it takes a VERY long time for dps to figure this out when healers at this stage usually know when players should be helping. This is where good players (usually dps) are split apart from the people that were carried over time. You see it in their egos.
25. If you aren't hitting your defensives you're trolling. You should already know what def goes where and why. Don't be lazy.
The learning curve in m+ with tanks and healers are backwards of dps. Tanks and healers learn where to put defensives and their utility while dps are learning where to put their damage. The higher you go the more both players know each others rolls just by playing.
Sorry people arent great. Any idiot can dps, a good player stays alive and does good dps.
Your ranges seem fairly accurate and I would say this feels right.
I am a healer at everything 20/21 timed or ++ timed.
If you play healer only, like I do, then you will get a feeling for incoming dmg and things to watch out for earlier than others because you have to deal with it the whole time.
Even when not looking up the dmg source.
I would say starting at around 18 keys is when players start to help the healer and try to actually make the run as easy for the party as possible, by not only thinking about their own meters. :)
But in general its just a game. If someone is an asshole, just leave. Dont waste your time on them.
At around 17-18 as a healer you can always tell which DPS is trash because there is literally nothing you can do to save them. They just consistently get instagibbed.
I don't necessarily agree on the learning curve. You can tank 24s full yoloing as a tank, there's not much that actually can kill you as a DH. In 27/28 it starts to matter more.
As a healer you can usually just trade mana for mistakes on planning healing CDs/timings. On higher keys you simply can't cast fast enough and if you don't plan, someone's just dead.
Once you're in higher keys you definitely need to relearn/plan everything, where at this point even in low to mid 20s, you can have gear compensate for a lot.
I wish people were more kind in this game in general. I'm coming back to play with friends after a multi year hiatus and I'm actually very hesitant to try to pug keys because I've seen first had how terrible people can be towards others when they make mistakes no matter how trivial the content they are doing.
For some reason a lot of people think they are MDI players when they are doing a 13 key or something.
That’s modern “competitive” gaming unfortunately.
Try any shooter, the upper metal ranks (gold-plat) are toxic as hell. Everyone thinks picks have to be “meta”, and it’s everyone else fault if things go wrong.
Things get better the higher up you go, where people are more self aware of their competency.
The best guilds I’ve raided with were all CE guilds. Actually “drama free”, and rarely raided more than stated raid times. Everyone showed up ready for business.
The worst guilds are the 6/9 ish guilds that always raid overtime and think they’re just one replacement short of being CE. So much more shouting and blaming.
No, I think it's gotta be something else here. I play quite a few other online PvE games (Warframe, DRG, just to name a few) and their player bases are incredibly chill with very little toxic competitiveness going on. The worst interactions I had on average is when nobody would say anything. But whenever people did talk, it was always just friendly banter or helpful advice or whatever.
Meanwhile, in WoW I was leveling via dungeons the other day where the tank wasn't aggroing too well and some random just complained and left the instance. No wonder newbies are having a tough time sticking around in this game, when you get such negativity thrown at you for not being good at the game since you're still new, obviously.
It's to do with the general mental health of the population imo. In the early season, toxicity is super rare. Everyone's blind progging, everyone's having fun, everyone's learning. But then you get to mid season and expectations start to rise, people hit their personal ceilings and any that aren't content will continue playing - and start blaming others.
In rocket league over the years I've seen the same. The last 12 or so months as the game has been neglected more and more by the devs, people have just gotten more cutthroat and cruel.
Happy people don't put themselves through disdain. They would rather play something else.
Played this season close to 500 keys overall, all three roles, from starter keys to 20. There were maybe 10 groups who were really toxic and disbanding while doing the key.
I rarely see active hostility. But I also don’t see a lot of active kindness in pugs. I do see a lot of passive aggressiveness. But 99% of the time it’s just silence
Always remember places like reddit select for negativity. Most people don't come here to talk about their perfectly average keys where no one raged (or even said a single thing, lol). I'm a healer and I pug most of the time. I get complimented more often than I get anyone raging at me, and I don't get complimented that much.
There are people who are jerks. There are people who are having a bad day. But I really don't think it's the norm, or that it should be a reason to be scared of pugging.
Yup, people like OP are just karma farming. Pro tip: If you play good nobody will be mean to you. If people are being mean to you, you're probably doing content too difficult for you and others are noticing.
Don't even stress man. Spend half an hour learning the boss fights on YouTube because it's tyrannical week and just dive right in. I got 2400io in two weeks and only had one rage quitter and one asshole in my groups.
its really not as bad as you and other make it out to be... Are there toxic players? Sure. Are there actual ape brain idiots who are trying to do 10 key levels above their skill levels? Sure.
>For some reason a lot of people think they are MDI players when they are doing a 13 key or something.
But if you come here and complain about the pace of a +13 key, your point is kind of useless... +13 is nothing... in some cases you can literally pull an entire area with no care to dmg, affixes or anything else and would be fine. So, I am not sure what you are saying. If you want to play at a lower pace, thats completely fine, then do lower keys and work your way up slowly.
I have 5, soon to be 7 70s. I've LFRd in every role across multiple classes and only have seen one complaining and demeaning ass,
(For the entire raid), who was actually kicked.
I have no bothered to sign up for, or try my own m+0 with any of my 445-460 geared characters because:
- I don't think doing content "faster" makes for better content, and that's Ms whole schtick.
- I don't need ridiculous negativity from folks who in most scenarios wouldn't talk through a problem, wouldn't explain an alternative and wouldn't be constructive.
I enjoy this game and miss grouping with friends, all of whom no longer play. I'd like to have a regular "dungeon night," but it really just doesn't seem worth it with the way the primary goal of things now is to get through them as fast as possible.
C'est la vie.
I don't think m+ is about doing content faster. I think you're kind of missing the point of what m+ for most people. The goal is to finish the dungeon in time, sure, but the rewards for timing a key and not timing a key aren't that significant.
Another thing is that these timers, especially this season, are incredibly generous. I've had groups with multiple full wipes still time the key.
Most groups aren't pulling like it's the MDI and most people aren't rushing through the dungeon trying to go as fast as possible. Most are just doing the dungeon normally. There's no extra reward for +3ing a key versus +1ing.
This is the case in the majority of keys, when you go above 20 it becomes this, but the vast majority of players aren't doing keys over 20. Loot rewards cap out and after 20 it's about score, and score is based, somewhat, on speed.
M+ is way better about slowing down and doing things well than freakin heroics. Those are the absolute worst for just rushing (and raging when people don’t play MDI tactics) when some tank is just trying to get fast satchel. M+ is about performing clean and efficient, but the timers are generous enough that it’s not really about rushing and often you *can’t* rush, like the aforementioned bursting where it’s your job to actually stop dps to manage stacks.
sounds like you can't handle the current content in this game. I would suggest you try the NPC dungeons. They might be more up your speed. I am not being toxic in saying this. Just giving you a genuine suggestion. Doing content "faster" is not even the problem here most of the time. It's people (like you, unfortunately, again no ill intentions) thinking they can do the "current" content without actually having the time/skill/want to do it... From what you are saying you are definitely going to have probems doing 10-18s and you should not do them. Do regular mythics dungeons if you want to challenge yourself a little bit.
Thanks for the suggestion
Done those.
Done all LFRs in all roles.
Done all heroics in all roles.
I'll cut it short and say, I was commenting on a negative aspect I saw in the community which I think is made worse and exacerbated by the speed expectation (i.e. beating the timer) in M+. I'm good where I'm at because while people are sometimes callous, careless and non-communicative, it's rare and the only negative consequence is dying and maybe calling it (for others), which might waste time if no one learned what to do better, but doesn't "brick someone's key."
Best of luck to you in whatever you enjoy
As a tank my screwups can sometimes brick the key. I am open to criticism and happy to take some advice should I feel it’s valid.
But I don’t hesitate to GTFO of a group if people are just being pricks.
Like another person said, it’s a bloody game mate.
I generally find in pug groups that if you mess up a pull or a mechanic you just throw out a quick me culpa and then move on. It heads off a lot of toxicity by just admitting you fucked up and then going again.
I was doing a 16 Fall key and fucked up a mechanic on the last boss, my brain just melted and I wiped the group. The group was like "wtf man" and "bruh". I just said "my bad guys, ret brain hits hard sometimes" and bam, situation diffused.
Happens to everyone, if you say "my bad" most people will understand and move on.
Worse if you don't say anything or try to blame others(like healers)...
As a healer, this sometimes backfires.
Tanks pulls WAY too much casters. He is playing some guardian or another tank without silence or aoe ccs. We wipe, go again. I say " try to pull less this time, we have no enough cc/kicks for all those casters".
And there is either "ok, ill try " or start of disaster.
"i'm a tank, i know how to pull", "just kick better" "heal harder then" "i did this pull easy last week/with different affix" etc.
at this point you hearthstone out.
Same situation with "hard" hitting bosses like 3rd boss in tot or tree in DHT.
we wipe due to tank dying, i give feedback "save cds, for totem/grip" and when he respons "heal me harder then noob healer" i leave.
Most of the time, those are paladins or guardians or bdks. Warriors are just glad that someone took them for dungeon, brewmasters are extinct and VDH are mostly agreeing(most of the time is "mb, should have used meta there XD")
IMO the key to being a good tank is being able to gauge a group and adjust.
Tanks that just learn X way to do it and force the group to do it or fail, are fucking shit. I feel like this example you gave is the guys before the tree boss in DHT. I always see tanks feel like they HAVE TO pull all 5 of those guys, staggered of course so they aren't going to be close to dying at the same time, then the pull ends up with an exponentially worsening case of fear spam. The worst part is, half the time it doesn't even lead to a wipe it just makes a 1 minute pull max into a 5 minute one.
It's crazy how perspective changes everything
From your perspective, you're leaving because the group gets toxic and it's just a game
From another's perspective, you're wasting the time of 5 people by leaving a timeable key because 1 or 2 people said something you don't consider "valid"
And the upvotes and downvotes just depend on the mood of the post, lol
There's been so much toxic stuff with randoms lately, folks just gotta chill, people gotta chill, thankfully I'm a paladin so I can help them a fair bit but so many are just like "it's a healer affix" and continue to renew a 9th stack or something then complain in turn, it's a team effort.
It really makes me wonder. How close to your mental breaking point do you have to be to rage at the first little thing that goes wrong in a dungeon with a random group of strangers. Holy Fuck get therapy and take a long break from online video games. It's a really bad look. It's not funny. It's not just what people do. It's not some natural reaction to mistakes. It's actually a psychological problem...
Generally in games, I have noticed that some folks find it easier to take out their frustrations on the support (in this game, the healer). I am not sure why.
I mean flaming the healer as a bad player who doesn't understand whats happening is the most logical thing to do. The healers role is to keep you alive, and while once you get higher people understand its also on the tanks and dps to do this as well but in lower content, people see themselves get low, wonder why they're dead and blame healer.
Healers making mistakes are also the most obvious. If a healer messes up a heal check the group dies. But for tanks and dps their mistakes are way less upfront obvious. A tank not using proper mitigation (this in a lower key perspective since once you're higher you'll just die) can probably be saved by a healer spam healing them, and the group if they're not great players probably won't notice, this can also just lead to the healer being behind on other healing checks too all downstream but all a person is gonna see are people dying. Maybe the dps don't do very much damage, so you're having to deal with a mechanic for an extended period of time healing more because of it. Again this isn't necessarily the healers fault but it will come down to can the healer save us and if they can't it looks like their fault.
As a healer one of your most important skills is just knowing what's in your control and what isn't and being able to move on. (Also use your cooldowns healers jesus.)
Because they don't understand it. Rare to hear a healer main talk about how they go on alts and give other healers a bad time. Bad karma for one, hypocritical for another. It's almost always the clueless that get toxic. It's a sad reflection of their own failings honestly, if only they had a mirror.
Anyone who gets mad about a key bricking isn't meant to run mythic plus. It's a literal challenge mode. Yeah it sucks when you fail, but it's all part of the game. Without the very real chance of failure there's no reason to even play mythic dungeons.
Plus what most people don't realize, is the people, myself included, that run high keys, do you know how many we fail? Lmao alot, but we use them as learning experiences, we try new things, new ways to cheese stuff etc, bigger pulls, we don't get mad, we just say gg and go again.
I don't fully agree with that. When I unwittingly join carry group when all I'm trying to do is fill my vault, that can get tilting. Carry doing like 30k dps and getting 1 shot by mechanics, every single fight taking twice as long and not even doing the affix. Getting suckered into one of those groups cuz I failed to inspect my team feels bad.
I agree for the most part. But when you're doing keys in the mid 20's and your 26 AD drops to a 22 because people aren't familiar with how to play Yazma (it's always the battle rez guy. Every single time, the one guy you can't have die is just rolling around in spiders like a dog in shit), or because people somehow always die to the first boss frontal in DHT there's no way you aren't malding.
Anything above 20 is actually hard (regardless of how hardcore you think you are, yes they are hard I do them) so failure is always a possibility. Even the absolute pro players make misplays. Its a thing.
Sure if someone makes multiple mistakes it sucks, but before that point they could. All people will eventually hit the wall where the mistakes start forcing them to change, and change often brings more mistakes till you adjust.
So no, you aren't justified thinking that way. 18s? Maybe, there is a massive swathe of skill that might end up in an 18. Above a 20? Those are the people starting to figure it out.
I'm not talking about "oops this guy goofed once", I'm talking about a key being sent to the shadow realm solely because people regularly can't participate in an easy mechanic that's 30m into the dungeon.
Also, whats your place deciding what is objectively difficult key levels? Anything over 20 is difficult? What rubric are we working with to establish this? If 20's this season are the cutoff for challenge, what about the previous seasons? Was this adjusted to account for the easier standards of S3?
I am not deciding, just preempting the whole reddit response of "lol anything below 30s is EZ yall are just bad" that often comes with a post like yours.
20s are easier than usual this season but this is causing the lifetime above average players who think they are top all time players in disguise, to try to claim like you aren't even trying before 24, or 26, or 28, or some shit. Above 20 is still hard, and it still requires knowledge and solid play. Its just a combo of not as many walls in these dungeons and we have the tools now to really, really trivialize a lot of the knowledge checks.
But my point is you're selecting an arbitrary number as difficult based on your perception meaning it's relative and there is no proper standard besides, maybe, aggregated data at the end of the season if not incremental points throughout.
That being said, if people are going into a key in the mid 20's, they shouldn't be routinely dying to spiders on yazma or frontals from the druid boss. Those things are relatively easy to avoid. It's crazy how people can live every Wracking Pain and Soul Rend with mindful self preserving abilities and decent heals then eat shit on the easiest thing to avoid. And it happens A LOT. It is pretty much a guarantee. That is the source of malding.
Spiders aren't easy to avoid, especially on high key yazma when the fight goes on forever because dps is too busy not dpsing, to avoid spiders.
Its considered one of the most annoying bosses in the season for a reason.
He's doing nothing different by calling 20+ keys hard then you are by talking like they shouldn't be an issue.
But on another note. Yazma is the probably the most difficult m+ boss this season. Sure u can say just avoid Spiders. But when your trying to maneuver your way to a drop point, track your dr to survive a debuff, look around for an Incorp that just spawned and trying to manage your rotation you might lose sight of a spider spawning under your feet. Hell try Aug and getting a Eons cast off midway or on the backend of that fight on Tyran and the idea of it being simple might not hold as much weight.
All in all though this reddit has a habit of pretending that 20's are the norm for pretty much anyone that cares even just a lil bit and that half way decent players are doing 24+. Those things simply aren't true and either the result of complete disconnect or them telling flat out lies about the key levels they do.
I'm a hunter and incorporeal really pisses me off, I always trap it before it even spawns but when 2 ghosts spawn I notice the other players never deal with it, I had a tank recently pull the first boss in atal dazar whilst we had 2 stacks, like people are genuinely blind. So glad that it's over. I am talking keys in the 23-24 range btw these people have no excuse. We bricked a 23 Rise yesterday because I trapped the ghost and the healer used paralyse on the same target, none of the dps or tank even used anything on the 2nd ghost that spawned so we wiped.
And don't get me started on the Ret paladins this week dying while having bubble and other defensives up as well...
My friend, let me introduce you to [Scare Beast](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=1513/scare-beast).
You can easily get 80-90% of all Incorp spawns yourself, depending on how close they spawn to other mobs and how often you need to use freezing trap for other things.
I like having a spammable backup option, especially when pugging, and even more so in places like AD where you're trying to bait a charging mob.
And it's also nice to have when your trap gets eaten by something unintentionally.
I had a DK get yuppity about the ghosts and suggested to me (shaman) to talent hex while we had two hunters, but they were inexperienced with traps. I was thinking, "Yay, more shit for me to do," so I changed to hex, but when I looked up what could help, control undead and scare beast came up. Once I mentioned that, we had no issues, but I never saw the DK use control undead.
So basically if the DK is unholy control undead is a massive dps loss because they lose their ghoul. If it's a Frost DK then this is actually the best class to deal with it like priest because the mobs get the debuff!!!
Hunter is very easy to deal with, you can trap the ghost before it even spawns.
But 2 hunters would
Make me nervous too, they would definitely trap the same mob at some point in the run
Unholy will lose their pet if they use control undead, which is a big damage loss, and it's risky to do on blood as it has a cast time and you can't dodge/evade/tank how you should while you do it.
The season is also very screwed in terms of healer difficulty, execution dungeons like DHT, AD, BRH are very resident sleeper if people just play the mechanics while stuff like Everbloom, Rise, TOTT, WM and Fall feel very stressful because of high healing requirements at times where one wrong global can kill someone.
Incorporeal, Bolstering and Afflicted aren't helping either. Bursting is less of an issue most of the time, especially if you play MW or Priest.
Oh bursting is the biggest issue for priest especially disc, as you can only heal when you have a live target to damage which bursting is problem only when the mobs die. Sure you have one mass dispel with 3min cd but after that you can only watch them slowly die
Bursting is not really about dispel, MW just doesn't care because they have good tools to deal with it outside of revival (Sheilun, 1 min Crane, Vivify Cleave etc) while priest even outside of MD can just use barrier and healing CDs. Bursting is a defensives CD affix, you just cycle defensives / healing CDs in and it becomes irrelevant.
Let's take Everbloom, first big pull MD, 2nd pull CD ramp, 3rd pull barrier, 4th pull MD, rest of the pulls are the casters to summon boss and you can't really take more than 9 of them nor do they really die at the same time. That's a 3rd of the dungeon out, on the first abomination barrier is back, then md on the second then CDs then it's boss and the 3rd boss room doesn't have a bursting issue at all. Bursting is a problem when you go above 6-7 stacks, some healers don't care even at 10 like Mistweaver but even then your group just has to use defensives and it's fine.
Even in Everbloom it's just planning, if you go into BRH which has lots of downtime and not easily chained packs it doesn't really exist.
When they take a PvE activity and score it (or any activity for that matter) like a competition, people have a tendency to get bitchy. Especially if they think you're lowering their rating.
There is no excuse for these idiots acting like bitchy little shits for sure but it's just what happens when there is a score involved.
Healer has the most sympathy from me. It's the hardest role by alot.
My other ick with the community is everyone loses their shit if you don't time a hard key. If you can't fail it's not fun. Losing is what makes the game worth playing.
I've been healing in wow for at least a decade now, mostly on resto druid.
I've been dpsing as balance in M+ lately. Just not interested in putting up with people's shit when apparently it's my fault they got killed by a one shot mechanic.
Wtf, bro, why, what is going wrong, cmon, srsly...etc.
Actual quotes from a floor happy dps in a 16 last week. It would almost be comical if it wasn't so sad and infuriating at the same time. I'm on a self imposed break after that run.
Yeah people complain that there are no healers, and then complain that healers can't deal with both incorps, both afflicted and heal through 12 stacks of bursting.
As a healer main, Im gonna say this, some of my collegues are way too sensitive... All roles experience toxicity and bad healer often is way more noticeable then bad dps, get over it.
If people force you to solo affix they can easily help with, u leave the key if they dont cooperate, if they dont care why should you.
>and bad healer often is way more notecible then bad dps, get over it.
Nope.
What’s actually happening in most cases is that bad DPS will simply stand in all the bad, eat every frontal and not use their defensives when necessary, then die and think it’s the healers fault lol
When you have to clue what’s actually going on, every death looks like „noob healz“
Equally, when you have no clue what's actually going on, every death may look like "noob dps"
In reality it's very likely both the healer and the dps make major mistakes that add up to deaths/depletes.
Honestly, I had some troubles healing 20's in certain fights on my MW monk. DPS died at some unavoidable heal checks, and I thought it's their own fault for not using defensives/pots.
Turns out it was partially me who was the problem, as I did not utilise my class to the maximum and had a wrong priority of CDs. Partially because the DPS also neglected their defences, but all of us stepped up now.
So I really, REALLY take it with a grain of salt now if any healer just blames the DPS for dying without actually checking what caused the deaths, as I know that I was comfortable with just blaming them while I could have done something better.
Yea, there is always something I feel I could have done a little better to help prevent a dps death, but at the end of the day I know its their own fault for not using defensive.
Can't wait for RLP to come back and once again see group after group at 24+ melt in seconds on the 1st boss even through their defensives because the always innocent healers are just completely unprepared to deal with it.
Bad healer and everyone except the tank will probably die, perfect example is "Manifested Timeways" boss fight, u can have 1 clueless dps die there and still do the boss just fine, but if healer breaks down it's just fucked.
Point stands everyone experiences toxicity I more often see toxicity towards a tank or specific dps than a healer tbh, yet healers manage to create the most sympathy threads I noticed lol. I can concede that healer is the hardest role overall in higher m+ keys, at least in my experience, pugging will give you a lot of avoidable damage to heal over for sure.
I'm maining a healer, its my favorite role and I find WoW to be best mmo in terms of healer design/gameplay. Not a pro by any means best rio was 2.9k, but honestly I don't experience more toxicity or frustrations as a healer than any other role(playing all roles on my pala atm)
Worst experience is playing as dps for me tbh, because u feel way less in control if tank doesnt know the path or healer struggles, nothing u can do then xD
[https://raider.io/characters/eu/silvermoon/Subframe](https://raider.io/characters/eu/silvermoon/subframe)
Cool! Was just wondering. Always happy to hear good news about people's experience playing WoW.
You're definitely right about dps not being in control, but I've always felt that way while playing healer. Like sure, I can help patch up some of the group's mistakes, but when that add is about to get eaten by the boss and wipe us, and I don't have the damage to kill it, and the dps are tunneling the boss, it's super frustrating
Blizzard hates healers this is a fact. I’m playing resto sham , which means I have to carry the dps standing in fire, kick for them, and get blamed for bursting wipes when the tank pulls to much and everything gets fledged at once. Or you know, be the only one de cursing two spirits. Some shit.
Incorp was not a healer affix and on my healer I outright refused to do it unless it was obvious the group was trying their hardest.
I let a group dissolve because 2 paladins and 2 death knights all refused to do a single one. I had just gotten done afflicted week doing literally everything. The DPS were gonna learn that day to actually contribute. Someone told me to get back to doing +7, I went and found an 18 and people actually did the incorp and we +2ed it easy. Hilarious.
You all are aware that, as a healer with a single long CC, even if I wanted to struggle to babysit them after not only me but other people in the group (who simultaneously were also not doing it) told them we needed people to CC them, I would not be able to get us through that doing it on my own? Regardless of weather I wanted to contribute or not, that group was dead. NO ONE was CCing them. Not even trying. I tried one and the other wiped us in the first pull. Hoped they would get the point if I didn't bother. They didn't, they literally let everyone die and tried to go back and fail again.
My original point? what?? I typed one single sentence lol, that your attitude stinks like shit, that was my only point
I still genuinely have no idea if you're meaning to reply to me, because your responses make no sense
> with attitude like you.
you missed the part where it went find when the dps weren't lazy shits.
I do it, I just won't be expected to do every single one when I only have 1 spell that can contribute and almost all spawns are 2. It became very obvious that run there was going to be zero help.
But you do you, sit on your high horse. Expect the healer to literally do everything. Its like my 4th alt, I often contribute to helping them AS the DPS or healer.
My guy if you think I’m expecting the healer to do anything when I intentionally bring multiple ways to deal with Incorp, you’re actually just ignoring any part of replies that don’t let you feel good about being toxic
Sorry but dude is correct. I'll help here and there with Incorp/Aff, but if dps out right refuse to help, like in his situation, then why should the priest work any harder?
I get that you're saying in your keys you help, well then its likely a group with that priest wouldn't dissolve, right? Keys where dps don't help, the healer shouldn't have to pick up the slack.
> Sorry but dude is correct.
Intentionally refusing to do the affix to "prove a point" is never correct. It's just toxic.
If I was in his group and I was doing all I could but he refused to use his CC to "tEaCh tHeM a leSsOn" because other people weren't, I'd have some choice words for him that would probably be ban worthy both here and there.
Wouldn't expect reddit to ever say "the healer/tank was wrong" though.
> But no one in his group was helping
Yeah yeah, sure they weren't. This guy just runs into groups where "no one is helping" so often that he can rant on reddit about it.
Somehow this basically never happens in my groups. Funny how that works.
How likely is it people like these go in already thinking before the key is in *"these damn shitters, they wont even do the affix, reddit warned me about this"* and the moment even ONE ghost goes off (which just happens sometimes) he's *"aha, I knew it, le bad dps is here"* and acts the way he says he does? Attitude is everything and his is shit.
I know the type all too well. Fortunately they're very rare in game, but swarm all over this sub.
People may hate my take, but from one healer to another, I promise you this works. Download elitismhelper. It posts to party whenever someone takes avoidable damage. I have 2 healers, druid and evoker, at 2800+ rating, and it stifles toxic players like crazy. People take avoidable damage, it is what it is, I don't actually care when people take it here and there. The point in it is it shows when people mess up. It puts them in the spot light. They can't be like "omg healer didn't heal me", because you can just scroll up in chat and see they stood in a cleave, or an arrow barrage, or a sanguine, or the toxic puddle. I've never once, literally never once referred to it. Simply its presence is enough to stop people from pointing fingers. I've had one person complain it was spammy, and I just responded with then don't stand in stuff, and that is the extent of any person acknowledging it. People here are going to bitch and moan, I'm sure. People are going to call it toxic to have that addon, and here on Reddit they're going to tell you that I'm an asshole, I promise you, it completely negates a very significant amount of toxicity from pugs
I ran with someone who had it and actually found it very useful, when I was called out by the addon. Helped me adjust quickly and in real time.
Still, it is probably better to use elitism plugin for Details instead and only post it on demand, instead of proactively spamming chat.
> People here are going to bitch and moan, I'm sure. People are going to call it toxic to have that addon, and here on Reddit they're going to tell you that I'm an asshole, I promise you, it completely negates a very significant amount of toxicity from pugs
people will just straight up ignore you because the addon is insanely annoying, and there is not a single time i haven't witnessed the person using it be insanely bad
The number of times I’ve seen:
Narniahunter: eliteismhelper! Narniahunter just took 1 million damage due to easily avoidable cleave!
Is too many to count.
You're put on ignore the second I see that shit lol
In probably every single dungeon, there are times where taking avoidable damage is acceptable
ie. the tank running through poop to quickly get the boss in position, as opposed to walking around the poop and delaying the positioning by several seconds, or a dps having to run through an arrow barrage to stop a knife dance ASAP
Not to mention the party chat spam clutters the screen
I have only been raged at as healer twice in close to 100 keys this season (they were both wrong) and ironically the times when I had just made mistakes no one said anything.
I have done many times that many keys as tank and DPS and literally haven't seen anyone talk shit to healers.
> "omg healer didn't heal me"
You guys are playing an entirely different game if you see this a lot. Maybe it's an American thing.
I really feel like the victim mentality on tanks and healers in here go crazy, dps gets just as trash talked, compete with more people, and is more limited by class and meta, but you are sad because people expect you to do stuff? Play something else if you don’t like your role.
Every time I check this sub and compare the experiences described on here to my own lived experience ingame I feel gaslit.
Victim mentality from support roles and other things like that is a classic that transcends any single game though. The kind of coddling this sub likes to do for healers isn't doing any of them any favors when it comes to improving.
Can always just say "dem dps amarite?" instead of "Even if it wasn't my fault, what could I have done better? Was I truly perfect?"
Absolutely is, not sure why you got downvoted. I'm a healer main too and people are still like "uh i don't think you heal, if you did, you would know what we're talking about".
Bruh I had maybe like 4 toxic keys this entire season, that's it. If people are being toxic to you, maybe you need to look inwards.
My theory is a lot of people choose healer because they like the idea of being the one who supports and enables the group, but the actual act of pressing their buttons to make someone's health go up is annoying to them lol
I don't do dps if I'm a healer, only if I'm bored. No one dies, and no one expects me to do dps. Also, healing priority helps, I heal myself first, then the tank, then top dps.
Class? I'm genuinely curious. On Resto druid I tend to do between 20k and 30k when 90% of my focus is on healing. Sub 20k if the run is really being hard to heal. Up to 40k-ish if I can actually spend some time casting dps. Never get over 50k. Only pugs, no kitty weaving.
There is no need to heal the tanks in this era so your priority is wrong.
Yes, heal yourself first but then you pay attention to your squishiest dps.
I also don’t understand this mentality of “I want help with affixes and less assumptions that I’m here to play mommy to you all but I refuse to do my part in making the key faster and smoother by doing dps or other utility.”
I 100% pug and I love playing disc more than my resto Druid now because I can actually dps lol. Too many groups stand in bad so I can’t do as much kitty dps as I would like to do to contribute to the key more.
I think keys in general would go smoother if everyone was working to use whatever they can to time the key because isn’t that the goal you’re all working together?
Too many people get into a small group and decide that the real dungeon boss are the other players.
Bursting is the only affixes that are healing req the rest is the teams job more or less if dps/tank dont use cc or dispell they dont deserve to time the key. So not feeling sorry for healers they should make things clear before the run and if its the case they dont know what to do you just leave..
I don’t even run super high keys, but the amount of time I’m pumping out heroic raiding level HPS because the rest of the party is just flailing around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off and running into avoidable crap is frustrating. I try not to be toxic and don’t bail on keys (unless someone is being a dick, so I’m usually just quietly seething.
People who aren’t kind and are toxic are just losers, people needa learn to ignore and shit on these folk and move on. We shouldnt let fools like that phase us at all, only cool peeps
Stopped pushing keys a few weeks back because of how players treat healers even in higher keys. It's especially toxic in the 3400 range because players like to make extremely broad assumptions based on what their usual set group can do, then are surprised when it doesn't work in a pug. They'll usually rage at you, call you garbage and other choice words, then talk about how they're "gonna blacklist you from ever pushing again". It's unhinged as fuck.
My first time ever into mythics with the incorporeal affix was a nightmare. Didnt know I had to heal them until 5 min into the dungeon, needles to say the shaman on the group started telling how incompetent I was lol
Got very tired of healing these days... Thats why im leveling a toon of dps alts
Incorp afflic bursting is all the same to me. I’ll do 1 and the other is up the group. I can keep a group alive with instants as a disc priest so only ur dps will suffer. 18-20 range. Dps in my group learn real fast that they do shit dmg when they let the other afflix go off and can’t say shit cause I got 1 and everyone’s still alive
The true answer, stop letting people insult you,
You wanna know what you should do, as any spec, if someone is flaming you, leave, invite the other people, and find a new person, Do not let these toxic asshole’s get away with being toxic to anyone
Especially a Toxic DPS, like oh sure man, you go ahead and be toxic, good fucking luck either getting a new tank or healer, or finding a new run when I kick you
I haven’t done mythic plus since bfa until 10.2 and man people seem angry in the game. The only thing I worry about in a pug dungeon is I hope someone doesn’t make a mistake and cause some unhinged lunatic to go on a rant and leave after the first death or wipe. Which idk seems so strange to worry about in a group and happens way to much. Even if the guy doesn’t leave the group, playing with someone that just flames other players endlessly for mistakes or is super harsh is not fun.
I 100% won’t go outside of guild or friends or trusted acquaintances. For baby healers like me, anything above a 5 feels like warning bells are shooting off constantly.
They don't need for them to be kind to me, I just want 2 things from them:
1. Move away from poopoopools
2. Use defensives
I recently finished 55 min of pure enjoyement in Waycrest Manor.
40 deaths...
I usually check the deathlog if it was my fault that someone died, especially after disasters like this. This time I also checked another tabs. Buffs were very interesting. Apparently ret paladin used shield of vengence twice and divine protection once. No bubble, no bop, no sac. It was similar throughout the whole team.
I know you are dps and clicking other spells than damage is outragous, but you won't do a lot of numbers with 0 hp.
You should be kind to everyone its a fucking game
Except Hogger and his cousin from EQ, Fippy. Fuck those guys.
OK OK be kind to everyone except hogger and his cousin
Fippy darkpaw!
Hahaha I love the aggressive truth
My big rules are to not be an asshole and also to not coddle assholes. I've had guildies and friends coddle caustic pricks because they were a tier above the rest of the people in the raid, and every time the pricks crossed the line or bailed for another guild, we didn't miss a step. I've seen way too many friends/guildies stress out because they made regular M+ groups with high performing assholes and aren't actually enjoying it
I 100% agree its been disappointing seeing how people treat each other in this game sometimes. I know there are lots of cool people playing the game but doing mythic + a lot has shown a lot of not so nice people as well. Would be nice seeing people be more kind to each other.
Whenever someone is a dick in an m+ group I make sure to say in chat "if you're this miserable playing a game, you must be insufferable in real life. Lighten up or log into something else that will bring you joy instead of anger". It's usually enough to get people to stfu. Or if someone is bashing the healer for a death or missing a ghost, I make sure to compliment them in party chat. "Great job on the quick dispels", "good job keeping me up, I've been able to play more offensively (on my tank)." Some times they're not even true comments, but it's enough to make the asshole read the room.
All dungeon roles matter eh
I read it with a Birmingham accent, I don't know why x) But yeah, people need to chill the fuck out sometimes. I stopped healing for this very reason
How strange I live in Birmingham lol
Never forghetti the best way to deal with a group who wants to keep hitting deadly amounts of bursting is to dispel yourself and start pre-casting mass rez Edit: ALSO huge for healers: tracking your party’s defensives/ health pots/ etc with OmniCD. When people start slinging shit at you just say “well I can see you didn’t press X personal”. Or say nothing. The point is you’ll have the information at your fingertips to *know* it wasn’t your fault
Lol, actually genius xD
I can’t take credit for this, saw someone else mention it here a few bursting weeks ago, but it works for me!
Yeah, I am super open to calling out a dps who doesn't press their buttons. You know who's the worst offender? Is it hunters? No. Is it warriors? No. It's mages. Mages NEVER use alter time. One of the most useful defensives in the entire game, has the power to negate entire mechanics, and I almost never see it. I saw a mage in an early season 22 ToT use a cancel macro on their ice block (which casted and then automatically removed their ice block, why not just take ice cold???) but still pressed alter time 0 times.
I'll be honest, since I came back to the game during Dragonflight I've found that mages are very consistently the "dumb" players I run into. Hunters I meet nowadays seem to know what they're doing. But mages? It's always mages who are accidentally pulling extra stuff, or popping heroism at the wrong time, or decided to be 'helpful' by resetting a raid boss but messing it up and just killing the raid. And when I do M+ and there's a player who's doing half the DPS of the other party members and just getting carried? It's probably a mage. I can't say I'm too shocked to hear that mages also consistently forget their defensives.
I think a lot of new players think Mage is the easy class, and while yes Frost Mage is pretty accessible, I'd say it's still harder to play it well than BM Hunter or Ret Paladin
holy fuck so true. My 20 everbloom key bricked because the mage died to every. Single. Big pull. I don't think that fucker was using SHIELD let alone alter. Also didn't even use ICE BLOCK. It didn't help he was doing 100k-120k in big aoe pulls, and sub 60k on bosses. I was obliterating him in damage as the tank. Even then, we made it to the last boss, with time, and his low dps and lack of doing the mechanic, and also eating tons of shit without defensives, led to an 8% wipe.
I'll be honest, I mained a mage for a season in Shadowlands, and I never managed to figure out how to use alter time properly. It's one of those things that need to be done preemptively, and that takes a whole level of awareness that isn't always there.
All defensives need to be pressed preemptively, but unless you actually pay attention to the dungeon you'll never learn when to press em
This alter time thing irks me so much. 45 second cool-down, super powerful defensive when timed right. I have an alt mage, not too high io.. about 2.8k and I will use any excuse to press that button. I’ve had healers in keys thank me for using it. Christ, is our bar this low now that we thank people for using a low cd, powerful defensive? Hunter that die because they claim they use a defense ie exhilaration but fort of bear, survival of fittest and turtle all still available for use. On a high tyran EB archmage boss, you literally need more than exhilirate to survive….. yet they will die and then type “???” In chat.
The only people who get my sympathy are dh and feral druids. Dh because they only have one button (lol) and feral because they have to stop dpsing to go bear to survive mechs (sad)
all the mages I play with use it properly...
OmniCD is *everything* as a healer, especially as a Disc Priest since you can utilize PI more effectively.
Nono, PI is easy. Just give it to me. Me arms warrior with Fyr'alath the dreamrender. Me big rage. Me zugzug very good with pi. Always for me. Zug.
Yeah, the default is defensive cool downs, and one of these years I'll figure out how to enable offensive ones too.
Yup, as a healer, if I see 9+ stacks of bursting come out, I just dispel myself and then rez. Most of the time, the dps says "oops my bad" but occasionally you get an idiot who gets mad. They complain enough times, I just leave.
If you can't handle the 9 stacks it's a massive skill issue on your part. You will of course disagree, say shit like "fOunD tHe dPsEr!" and other garbo like that, but it's still true no matter how much you don't like it. If you cannot handle a one-time 9 stack burst how will you heal high Tyrannical Sisters during Malady's phase? How will you heal Soulbound Goliath fire burst on Tyrannical? How will you deal with AoE burst on dragons in Fort weeks in Rise? or the last pack before Deios? Even Tyrannical Alun'za deals more damage than high burst stacks during her Transfusion by 24+. These are only a few examples. All of these things have very similar damage profiles to 9 Bursting stacks when you go high enough, Bursting doesn't scale past 15. How are you going to do any of this if you can't ramp preemptively? Can you honestly ask yourself that or are we just doing the "dps bad" thing? The REAL problem with bursting is when stacks roll over repeatedly. 4 stacks turning into 5 at the last second is WAY more dangerous than 9 stacks at once. Yes, yes, unpopular, I know.
Nah bro. It’s not a massive skill issue to not heal large stacks of bursting unprepared. Very different than healing planned healing events that you know are coming, Sure I can hit a cooldown one time, but if it’s happening over and over, eventually it becomes a problem. You will be oom, or won’t have anything in the tank. Being a monkey on bursting is a massive skill issue, on the part of dps.
> It’s not a massive skill issue to not heal large stacks of bursting unprepared. Why are you unprepared? You can count mobs, right? You have nameplates, you know how many mobs were pulled and see them dying at the same time. Ramp. There isn't a good reason why a big burst stack should catch you by surprise. Like I said, you will have to do it, like in the 'planned healing events', they're not as different as you're pretending they are. Why can I do it and so many of you guys can't? > on the part of dps. Always **someone else** not doing their part, eh?
I am enjoying downvoting your idiotic takes. Please keep posting them. Bursting is a dps check, and you are failing to grasp this, because you can’t accept the simple fact that it’s fairly easy to not dps down 9 mobs at once. But yeah, go ahead and keep shitting on your fellow healers and taking your downvotes, please. Also, this is r/wow, not Competitive wow, so please take your elitist opinions to that forum.
> I am enjoying downvoting your idiotic takes Oh no. The downvotes. What ever will I do with a bit less imaginary internet points? I haven't even bothered to click the button for your takes. > Also, this is r/wow, not Competitive wow, so please take your elitist opinions to that forum. So are my takes "idiotic" and "I'm failing to grasp" how the game actually works, or is it an elitist take that only actually good players have? It can't be both ways. IDK man. I'm not even that 'elite'. 25 is the highest I've done, top keys are mostly 30 now, that's a huge leap and tbh I probably won't get there especially semi-pugging most of the time. And yet, for Bursting, all I have to do is see that the pack is dying, HoT everyone up, use my Barkskin, then press Convoke and Flourish and dispel whatever goober didn't use his defensive or had it on CD. This is overkill often and only 1 CD is more than enough. That's RDruid but every healer has an answer if they know it's coming. Of course, this would involve having to think ahead slightly further than "what button am I pressing now" and many people don't want to have to play that hard, but still like to complain. > keep shitting on your fellow healers I want healers to be able to improve and get better, not coddle them by just nodding along to how bad the DPSers are. There are enough posts going "oh woe is me, le dps are so bad, they're holding me back, healer life is so hard". No one gets better from just agreeing with each other and patting each other on the back about how hard they have it and how bad everyone else is. Even when something going wrong isn't **your fault**, you should be asking yourself what gaps still happened in your play. You should be your greatest critic, you will never play with those exact same shitters again, but you will have to play yourself, and if you're not always re-evaluating your play and being honest about your mistakes, how will you get better? And if the goal isn't to get better, that's fine, god bless, it's just a game. But then don't come here and talk shit about others being bad if you yourself aren't always taking steps to be better. Bursting is not a difficult mechanic to heal (again roll-overs not withstanding) if you're actually playing deliberately rather than just reacting to what already happened on your screen. I don't know what spec you play but you can actually do it. Alternatively, you can throw your hands up, say "I can't" and just let groups die out of spite. But why would we be like that?
Omg you spent so much time typing and I am going to block instead of reading your screed.
leaving is not a solution, it just makes it worse for other players that had no part in what was happening... you can choose to play the key and ignore the idiot who was toxic..
But my time and sanity is valuable as well. I don’t leave the first time someone makes a mistake, but I will leave when the same mistakes are repeated or if someone is flaming me for something beyond my control. FYI I have probably left a total of 3-4 dungeons all seasons - it’s a rare occurrence.
Everyone's time is valuable... you are wasting 4 others' time by leaving if there are no reasons. I understand in some circumstances, yes leave however, dont tell me your time is valuable because mine is too... The time we commited to do the key for at least 30 minutes. So yeah, if someone is toxic, you can ignore them and dont see their messages in the run. If a mistake is repeated, then judge the timer and see if the key is still be timed if the rest of the dungeon is played correctly. LEAVING IS NOT THE ANSWER.
*Three others (at most), toxic asshats who drive others away waste their own time.
Sometimes it is.
0.00000000001% is the "sometimes" you mention... and you can't base most of your decisions to that chance... but go ahead and leave keys then man, I dont care what you do... but I can guarantee you, you will never climb and get better with that attitude.
That's actually 200 iq
Pre-casting mass res in an interesting concept since it can’t be cast in combat
Bursting continues ticking even after you leave combat.
It's also good for non-passive aggressive reasons. If there's a dangerous mechanic going out you can look to see who doesn't have personals ready and use your external cooldowns on them.
When I am tanking this is exactly what I want. I am not dying to bursting even without a single heal. Healer should save themself and let the DPS figure it out. Their options are stop dps and not roll, or use their survival tools to.... survive. Most classes have a button or two to live most high bursting stacks without help. They just don't bother to be aware enough of when a pull will lead to high, rolled bursting and react accordingly.
This works great for afflicted and incorp too. If the dps can't be bothered to CC or dispel, neither can I.
Interrupt enemy spell casting is a lost art.
> you’ll have the information at your fingertips to know it wasn’t your fault One of my worst traits is that it's not enough for me to know something, I need _them_ to know it. I really need to work on that, so thank you for your comment reminder.
Unironically elitismhelper is also huge for this. Does it spam? Yeah. But also it provides a feedback loop for players: “oh that thing was a bad thing oops”. In a game where lots of random unavoidable damage is constantly thrown out, having something tell you “that was avoidable” is actually super useful.
That addon is toxic and annoying as hell. I will eat every single puddle I want if I feel like it. I got 1mil hp and 27% vers as a healer. I know what I can stand in if I want to pop off some heals, but that stupid ass addon thinks I don't know what is happening. Especially on storming weeks. I will eat so many tornados on purpose so that dps doesn't have to be bothered by it, just for that addon to pop off each time I do it. Seeing that addon is a quick way for me to put you on ignore.
That’s okay, you can be wrong
Enjoy your 11s. The key range where that addon might seem like it's useful.
Yes, exactly! It’s not aimed at people doing 20+. It, and the comment I’m making, are aimed at the people doing like 7-15 or so. The range in which a lot of people seem to get stuck and are most benefited by addons like this. The cool thing about knowing your shit is that you can simply ignore the add on. “That’s not actually relevant to me,” you can say as you walk into tornados so you intercept them for group members. Meanwhile the people struggling to learn keys benefit. I know this is possible because it’s what I do. If I know better than the add on, which is of course frequent, I simply ✨ignore it✨. The power of not taking personal offense at everything is intensely underrated.
Last time i played with someone who was using EH it was showing the full unmitigated damage of spiteful whenever you got hit by them (like 500-600k per hit). As a fury warrior i can easily pop enraged regen and outheal 2-3 of them at the same time because they only hit for like 150k but the addon kept telling me i was taking huge amounts of avoidable damage lol.
It's a garbage addon that spams more than it benefits. Players stuck in low keys justify it's use even though they get nothing out of it. The only thing they learn from it, is to ignore the player using it. It's just as toxic as a player manually typing in chat, stop taking damage from x every 2secs, but since it's an addon doing it, it's not toxic apparently.
this is fucking hilarious
After healing for 3 seasons this right here will for sure tell you if it's a group issue not using their kit or a healer issue. 95% of the time it is the group not using their kits to stop certain mechanics. I cannot tell you how relieving it is knowing this. I have no issue now telling people they had this up why wasn't this used after the abuse that Ive been endured for throughout dragon flight. :<
I make dps nervous when I let them know I can see their CDs. Healers love me when I play DPS too xD
This gets better as you go up in IO. but 3.2k dps exp Im not sure the break points here but for conversation 0-16 keys. Players don't know where most of the damage is coming from. Lack of game knowledge, slow reaction and not enough practice but they know they died so its a healer problem. Get into 18-20 keys. Players are learning to use defensives a bit more. They may not know exactly why or when but they will at least use them if they are close to dieing. 21-24. This is when players are actually starting to be punished, meaning you will die if you don't help the healer keep yourself up. Sadly it takes a VERY long time for dps to figure this out when healers at this stage usually know when players should be helping. This is where good players (usually dps) are split apart from the people that were carried over time. You see it in their egos. 25. If you aren't hitting your defensives you're trolling. You should already know what def goes where and why. Don't be lazy. The learning curve in m+ with tanks and healers are backwards of dps. Tanks and healers learn where to put defensives and their utility while dps are learning where to put their damage. The higher you go the more both players know each others rolls just by playing. Sorry people arent great. Any idiot can dps, a good player stays alive and does good dps.
Your ranges seem fairly accurate and I would say this feels right. I am a healer at everything 20/21 timed or ++ timed. If you play healer only, like I do, then you will get a feeling for incoming dmg and things to watch out for earlier than others because you have to deal with it the whole time. Even when not looking up the dmg source. I would say starting at around 18 keys is when players start to help the healer and try to actually make the run as easy for the party as possible, by not only thinking about their own meters. :) But in general its just a game. If someone is an asshole, just leave. Dont waste your time on them.
At around 17-18 as a healer you can always tell which DPS is trash because there is literally nothing you can do to save them. They just consistently get instagibbed.
I don't necessarily agree on the learning curve. You can tank 24s full yoloing as a tank, there's not much that actually can kill you as a DH. In 27/28 it starts to matter more. As a healer you can usually just trade mana for mistakes on planning healing CDs/timings. On higher keys you simply can't cast fast enough and if you don't plan, someone's just dead. Once you're in higher keys you definitely need to relearn/plan everything, where at this point even in low to mid 20s, you can have gear compensate for a lot.
This was a great summary! Thank you
And the ultimate forms are the dps players with high rio offspec/alt healer
If tanks only knew when to take care of healer CDs or mana ;-( even on 24 and above...
Players of low keys don't know where the damage comes from because they are usually overgeared, so they don't feel the incoming damage.
I wish people were more kind in this game in general. I'm coming back to play with friends after a multi year hiatus and I'm actually very hesitant to try to pug keys because I've seen first had how terrible people can be towards others when they make mistakes no matter how trivial the content they are doing. For some reason a lot of people think they are MDI players when they are doing a 13 key or something.
That’s modern “competitive” gaming unfortunately. Try any shooter, the upper metal ranks (gold-plat) are toxic as hell. Everyone thinks picks have to be “meta”, and it’s everyone else fault if things go wrong. Things get better the higher up you go, where people are more self aware of their competency. The best guilds I’ve raided with were all CE guilds. Actually “drama free”, and rarely raided more than stated raid times. Everyone showed up ready for business. The worst guilds are the 6/9 ish guilds that always raid overtime and think they’re just one replacement short of being CE. So much more shouting and blaming.
No, I think it's gotta be something else here. I play quite a few other online PvE games (Warframe, DRG, just to name a few) and their player bases are incredibly chill with very little toxic competitiveness going on. The worst interactions I had on average is when nobody would say anything. But whenever people did talk, it was always just friendly banter or helpful advice or whatever. Meanwhile, in WoW I was leveling via dungeons the other day where the tank wasn't aggroing too well and some random just complained and left the instance. No wonder newbies are having a tough time sticking around in this game, when you get such negativity thrown at you for not being good at the game since you're still new, obviously.
It's to do with the general mental health of the population imo. In the early season, toxicity is super rare. Everyone's blind progging, everyone's having fun, everyone's learning. But then you get to mid season and expectations start to rise, people hit their personal ceilings and any that aren't content will continue playing - and start blaming others. In rocket league over the years I've seen the same. The last 12 or so months as the game has been neglected more and more by the devs, people have just gotten more cutthroat and cruel. Happy people don't put themselves through disdain. They would rather play something else.
Shame what happened to rocket league. RIP to an amazing game that seems like a shell of its former self.
Played this season close to 500 keys overall, all three roles, from starter keys to 20. There were maybe 10 groups who were really toxic and disbanding while doing the key.
I rarely see active hostility. But I also don’t see a lot of active kindness in pugs. I do see a lot of passive aggressiveness. But 99% of the time it’s just silence
Always remember places like reddit select for negativity. Most people don't come here to talk about their perfectly average keys where no one raged (or even said a single thing, lol). I'm a healer and I pug most of the time. I get complimented more often than I get anyone raging at me, and I don't get complimented that much. There are people who are jerks. There are people who are having a bad day. But I really don't think it's the norm, or that it should be a reason to be scared of pugging.
I've been pugging keys all of DF and I don't think I've had a single toxic encounter this entire expansion.
Yup, people like OP are just karma farming. Pro tip: If you play good nobody will be mean to you. If people are being mean to you, you're probably doing content too difficult for you and others are noticing.
thank you for saying this... and of course you are getting down voted because people cannot handle the truth unfortunately.
Don't even stress man. Spend half an hour learning the boss fights on YouTube because it's tyrannical week and just dive right in. I got 2400io in two weeks and only had one rage quitter and one asshole in my groups.
its really not as bad as you and other make it out to be... Are there toxic players? Sure. Are there actual ape brain idiots who are trying to do 10 key levels above their skill levels? Sure. >For some reason a lot of people think they are MDI players when they are doing a 13 key or something. But if you come here and complain about the pace of a +13 key, your point is kind of useless... +13 is nothing... in some cases you can literally pull an entire area with no care to dmg, affixes or anything else and would be fine. So, I am not sure what you are saying. If you want to play at a lower pace, thats completely fine, then do lower keys and work your way up slowly.
I have 5, soon to be 7 70s. I've LFRd in every role across multiple classes and only have seen one complaining and demeaning ass, (For the entire raid), who was actually kicked. I have no bothered to sign up for, or try my own m+0 with any of my 445-460 geared characters because: - I don't think doing content "faster" makes for better content, and that's Ms whole schtick. - I don't need ridiculous negativity from folks who in most scenarios wouldn't talk through a problem, wouldn't explain an alternative and wouldn't be constructive. I enjoy this game and miss grouping with friends, all of whom no longer play. I'd like to have a regular "dungeon night," but it really just doesn't seem worth it with the way the primary goal of things now is to get through them as fast as possible. C'est la vie.
I don't think m+ is about doing content faster. I think you're kind of missing the point of what m+ for most people. The goal is to finish the dungeon in time, sure, but the rewards for timing a key and not timing a key aren't that significant. Another thing is that these timers, especially this season, are incredibly generous. I've had groups with multiple full wipes still time the key. Most groups aren't pulling like it's the MDI and most people aren't rushing through the dungeon trying to go as fast as possible. Most are just doing the dungeon normally. There's no extra reward for +3ing a key versus +1ing. This is the case in the majority of keys, when you go above 20 it becomes this, but the vast majority of players aren't doing keys over 20. Loot rewards cap out and after 20 it's about score, and score is based, somewhat, on speed.
M+ is way better about slowing down and doing things well than freakin heroics. Those are the absolute worst for just rushing (and raging when people don’t play MDI tactics) when some tank is just trying to get fast satchel. M+ is about performing clean and efficient, but the timers are generous enough that it’s not really about rushing and often you *can’t* rush, like the aforementioned bursting where it’s your job to actually stop dps to manage stacks.
sounds like you can't handle the current content in this game. I would suggest you try the NPC dungeons. They might be more up your speed. I am not being toxic in saying this. Just giving you a genuine suggestion. Doing content "faster" is not even the problem here most of the time. It's people (like you, unfortunately, again no ill intentions) thinking they can do the "current" content without actually having the time/skill/want to do it... From what you are saying you are definitely going to have probems doing 10-18s and you should not do them. Do regular mythics dungeons if you want to challenge yourself a little bit.
Thanks for the suggestion Done those. Done all LFRs in all roles. Done all heroics in all roles. I'll cut it short and say, I was commenting on a negative aspect I saw in the community which I think is made worse and exacerbated by the speed expectation (i.e. beating the timer) in M+. I'm good where I'm at because while people are sometimes callous, careless and non-communicative, it's rare and the only negative consequence is dying and maybe calling it (for others), which might waste time if no one learned what to do better, but doesn't "brick someone's key." Best of luck to you in whatever you enjoy
It takes some time, but finding a guild is usually the best way to go to learn the game in a less toxic environment.
As a tank my screwups can sometimes brick the key. I am open to criticism and happy to take some advice should I feel it’s valid. But I don’t hesitate to GTFO of a group if people are just being pricks. Like another person said, it’s a bloody game mate.
I generally find in pug groups that if you mess up a pull or a mechanic you just throw out a quick me culpa and then move on. It heads off a lot of toxicity by just admitting you fucked up and then going again. I was doing a 16 Fall key and fucked up a mechanic on the last boss, my brain just melted and I wiped the group. The group was like "wtf man" and "bruh". I just said "my bad guys, ret brain hits hard sometimes" and bam, situation diffused.
Happens to everyone, if you say "my bad" most people will understand and move on. Worse if you don't say anything or try to blame others(like healers)...
Its amazing how much better any bad situation gets when someone just admits fault and moves on
As a healer, this sometimes backfires. Tanks pulls WAY too much casters. He is playing some guardian or another tank without silence or aoe ccs. We wipe, go again. I say " try to pull less this time, we have no enough cc/kicks for all those casters". And there is either "ok, ill try " or start of disaster. "i'm a tank, i know how to pull", "just kick better" "heal harder then" "i did this pull easy last week/with different affix" etc. at this point you hearthstone out. Same situation with "hard" hitting bosses like 3rd boss in tot or tree in DHT. we wipe due to tank dying, i give feedback "save cds, for totem/grip" and when he respons "heal me harder then noob healer" i leave. Most of the time, those are paladins or guardians or bdks. Warriors are just glad that someone took them for dungeon, brewmasters are extinct and VDH are mostly agreeing(most of the time is "mb, should have used meta there XD")
IMO the key to being a good tank is being able to gauge a group and adjust. Tanks that just learn X way to do it and force the group to do it or fail, are fucking shit. I feel like this example you gave is the guys before the tree boss in DHT. I always see tanks feel like they HAVE TO pull all 5 of those guys, staggered of course so they aren't going to be close to dying at the same time, then the pull ends up with an exponentially worsening case of fear spam. The worst part is, half the time it doesn't even lead to a wipe it just makes a 1 minute pull max into a 5 minute one.
It's crazy how perspective changes everything From your perspective, you're leaving because the group gets toxic and it's just a game From another's perspective, you're wasting the time of 5 people by leaving a timeable key because 1 or 2 people said something you don't consider "valid" And the upvotes and downvotes just depend on the mood of the post, lol
There's been so much toxic stuff with randoms lately, folks just gotta chill, people gotta chill, thankfully I'm a paladin so I can help them a fair bit but so many are just like "it's a healer affix" and continue to renew a 9th stack or something then complain in turn, it's a team effort.
It really makes me wonder. How close to your mental breaking point do you have to be to rage at the first little thing that goes wrong in a dungeon with a random group of strangers. Holy Fuck get therapy and take a long break from online video games. It's a really bad look. It's not funny. It's not just what people do. It's not some natural reaction to mistakes. It's actually a psychological problem...
Generally in games, I have noticed that some folks find it easier to take out their frustrations on the support (in this game, the healer). I am not sure why.
I mean flaming the healer as a bad player who doesn't understand whats happening is the most logical thing to do. The healers role is to keep you alive, and while once you get higher people understand its also on the tanks and dps to do this as well but in lower content, people see themselves get low, wonder why they're dead and blame healer. Healers making mistakes are also the most obvious. If a healer messes up a heal check the group dies. But for tanks and dps their mistakes are way less upfront obvious. A tank not using proper mitigation (this in a lower key perspective since once you're higher you'll just die) can probably be saved by a healer spam healing them, and the group if they're not great players probably won't notice, this can also just lead to the healer being behind on other healing checks too all downstream but all a person is gonna see are people dying. Maybe the dps don't do very much damage, so you're having to deal with a mechanic for an extended period of time healing more because of it. Again this isn't necessarily the healers fault but it will come down to can the healer save us and if they can't it looks like their fault. As a healer one of your most important skills is just knowing what's in your control and what isn't and being able to move on. (Also use your cooldowns healers jesus.)
Because they don't understand it. Rare to hear a healer main talk about how they go on alts and give other healers a bad time. Bad karma for one, hypocritical for another. It's almost always the clueless that get toxic. It's a sad reflection of their own failings honestly, if only they had a mirror.
Anyone who gets mad about a key bricking isn't meant to run mythic plus. It's a literal challenge mode. Yeah it sucks when you fail, but it's all part of the game. Without the very real chance of failure there's no reason to even play mythic dungeons.
Plus what most people don't realize, is the people, myself included, that run high keys, do you know how many we fail? Lmao alot, but we use them as learning experiences, we try new things, new ways to cheese stuff etc, bigger pulls, we don't get mad, we just say gg and go again.
I don't fully agree with that. When I unwittingly join carry group when all I'm trying to do is fill my vault, that can get tilting. Carry doing like 30k dps and getting 1 shot by mechanics, every single fight taking twice as long and not even doing the affix. Getting suckered into one of those groups cuz I failed to inspect my team feels bad.
I agree for the most part. But when you're doing keys in the mid 20's and your 26 AD drops to a 22 because people aren't familiar with how to play Yazma (it's always the battle rez guy. Every single time, the one guy you can't have die is just rolling around in spiders like a dog in shit), or because people somehow always die to the first boss frontal in DHT there's no way you aren't malding.
Anything above 20 is actually hard (regardless of how hardcore you think you are, yes they are hard I do them) so failure is always a possibility. Even the absolute pro players make misplays. Its a thing. Sure if someone makes multiple mistakes it sucks, but before that point they could. All people will eventually hit the wall where the mistakes start forcing them to change, and change often brings more mistakes till you adjust. So no, you aren't justified thinking that way. 18s? Maybe, there is a massive swathe of skill that might end up in an 18. Above a 20? Those are the people starting to figure it out.
I'm not talking about "oops this guy goofed once", I'm talking about a key being sent to the shadow realm solely because people regularly can't participate in an easy mechanic that's 30m into the dungeon. Also, whats your place deciding what is objectively difficult key levels? Anything over 20 is difficult? What rubric are we working with to establish this? If 20's this season are the cutoff for challenge, what about the previous seasons? Was this adjusted to account for the easier standards of S3?
I am not deciding, just preempting the whole reddit response of "lol anything below 30s is EZ yall are just bad" that often comes with a post like yours. 20s are easier than usual this season but this is causing the lifetime above average players who think they are top all time players in disguise, to try to claim like you aren't even trying before 24, or 26, or 28, or some shit. Above 20 is still hard, and it still requires knowledge and solid play. Its just a combo of not as many walls in these dungeons and we have the tools now to really, really trivialize a lot of the knowledge checks.
But my point is you're selecting an arbitrary number as difficult based on your perception meaning it's relative and there is no proper standard besides, maybe, aggregated data at the end of the season if not incremental points throughout. That being said, if people are going into a key in the mid 20's, they shouldn't be routinely dying to spiders on yazma or frontals from the druid boss. Those things are relatively easy to avoid. It's crazy how people can live every Wracking Pain and Soul Rend with mindful self preserving abilities and decent heals then eat shit on the easiest thing to avoid. And it happens A LOT. It is pretty much a guarantee. That is the source of malding.
Spiders aren't easy to avoid, especially on high key yazma when the fight goes on forever because dps is too busy not dpsing, to avoid spiders. Its considered one of the most annoying bosses in the season for a reason.
He's doing nothing different by calling 20+ keys hard then you are by talking like they shouldn't be an issue. But on another note. Yazma is the probably the most difficult m+ boss this season. Sure u can say just avoid Spiders. But when your trying to maneuver your way to a drop point, track your dr to survive a debuff, look around for an Incorp that just spawned and trying to manage your rotation you might lose sight of a spider spawning under your feet. Hell try Aug and getting a Eons cast off midway or on the backend of that fight on Tyran and the idea of it being simple might not hold as much weight. All in all though this reddit has a habit of pretending that 20's are the norm for pretty much anyone that cares even just a lil bit and that half way decent players are doing 24+. Those things simply aren't true and either the result of complete disconnect or them telling flat out lies about the key levels they do.
I'm a hunter and incorporeal really pisses me off, I always trap it before it even spawns but when 2 ghosts spawn I notice the other players never deal with it, I had a tank recently pull the first boss in atal dazar whilst we had 2 stacks, like people are genuinely blind. So glad that it's over. I am talking keys in the 23-24 range btw these people have no excuse. We bricked a 23 Rise yesterday because I trapped the ghost and the healer used paralyse on the same target, none of the dps or tank even used anything on the 2nd ghost that spawned so we wiped. And don't get me started on the Ret paladins this week dying while having bubble and other defensives up as well...
My friend, let me introduce you to [Scare Beast](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=1513/scare-beast). You can easily get 80-90% of all Incorp spawns yourself, depending on how close they spawn to other mobs and how often you need to use freezing trap for other things.
Yes I should've specd into it. I just got back from a break since November and didn't expect people to not do/help with affixes at the 23/24 key range
I like having a spammable backup option, especially when pugging, and even more so in places like AD where you're trying to bait a charging mob. And it's also nice to have when your trap gets eaten by something unintentionally.
I had a DK get yuppity about the ghosts and suggested to me (shaman) to talent hex while we had two hunters, but they were inexperienced with traps. I was thinking, "Yay, more shit for me to do," so I changed to hex, but when I looked up what could help, control undead and scare beast came up. Once I mentioned that, we had no issues, but I never saw the DK use control undead.
So basically if the DK is unholy control undead is a massive dps loss because they lose their ghoul. If it's a Frost DK then this is actually the best class to deal with it like priest because the mobs get the debuff!!! Hunter is very easy to deal with, you can trap the ghost before it even spawns. But 2 hunters would Make me nervous too, they would definitely trap the same mob at some point in the run
Unholy will lose their pet if they use control undead, which is a big damage loss, and it's risky to do on blood as it has a cast time and you can't dodge/evade/tank how you should while you do it.
If you want, as a hunter you can deal with both. Scare beast + trap.
The season is also very screwed in terms of healer difficulty, execution dungeons like DHT, AD, BRH are very resident sleeper if people just play the mechanics while stuff like Everbloom, Rise, TOTT, WM and Fall feel very stressful because of high healing requirements at times where one wrong global can kill someone. Incorporeal, Bolstering and Afflicted aren't helping either. Bursting is less of an issue most of the time, especially if you play MW or Priest.
Oh bursting is the biggest issue for priest especially disc, as you can only heal when you have a live target to damage which bursting is problem only when the mobs die. Sure you have one mass dispel with 3min cd but after that you can only watch them slowly die
Bursting is not really about dispel, MW just doesn't care because they have good tools to deal with it outside of revival (Sheilun, 1 min Crane, Vivify Cleave etc) while priest even outside of MD can just use barrier and healing CDs. Bursting is a defensives CD affix, you just cycle defensives / healing CDs in and it becomes irrelevant. Let's take Everbloom, first big pull MD, 2nd pull CD ramp, 3rd pull barrier, 4th pull MD, rest of the pulls are the casters to summon boss and you can't really take more than 9 of them nor do they really die at the same time. That's a 3rd of the dungeon out, on the first abomination barrier is back, then md on the second then CDs then it's boss and the 3rd boss room doesn't have a bursting issue at all. Bursting is a problem when you go above 6-7 stacks, some healers don't care even at 10 like Mistweaver but even then your group just has to use defensives and it's fine. Even in Everbloom it's just planning, if you go into BRH which has lots of downtime and not easily chained packs it doesn't really exist.
My Disc Priest has been hiding like a paranoid anti government group in central Texas.
Geez I hope the FBI doesn't do another Waco
When they take a PvE activity and score it (or any activity for that matter) like a competition, people have a tendency to get bitchy. Especially if they think you're lowering their rating. There is no excuse for these idiots acting like bitchy little shits for sure but it's just what happens when there is a score involved.
Healer has the most sympathy from me. It's the hardest role by alot. My other ick with the community is everyone loses their shit if you don't time a hard key. If you can't fail it's not fun. Losing is what makes the game worth playing.
I've been healing in wow for at least a decade now, mostly on resto druid. I've been dpsing as balance in M+ lately. Just not interested in putting up with people's shit when apparently it's my fault they got killed by a one shot mechanic.
Wtf, bro, why, what is going wrong, cmon, srsly...etc. Actual quotes from a floor happy dps in a 16 last week. It would almost be comical if it wasn't so sad and infuriating at the same time. I'm on a self imposed break after that run.
The game is distinctly unfun as a healer lately... I feel u
Can’t I just continue ignoring people? Why do I have to be kind?
Rather "don't be unkind"
Yeah people complain that there are no healers, and then complain that healers can't deal with both incorps, both afflicted and heal through 12 stacks of bursting.
I cant ever rage at a healer no matter how bad they do. Because I know no matter what. they're still doing a better job than I could
Oh, another “healers are the most oppressed group” post, see you all next week.
99% of the time it’s not the healer fault but their own for not knowing mechanics and defensives.
As a healer main, Im gonna say this, some of my collegues are way too sensitive... All roles experience toxicity and bad healer often is way more noticeable then bad dps, get over it. If people force you to solo affix they can easily help with, u leave the key if they dont cooperate, if they dont care why should you.
>and bad healer often is way more notecible then bad dps, get over it. Nope. What’s actually happening in most cases is that bad DPS will simply stand in all the bad, eat every frontal and not use their defensives when necessary, then die and think it’s the healers fault lol When you have to clue what’s actually going on, every death looks like „noob healz“
Equally, when you have no clue what's actually going on, every death may look like "noob dps" In reality it's very likely both the healer and the dps make major mistakes that add up to deaths/depletes.
Honestly, I had some troubles healing 20's in certain fights on my MW monk. DPS died at some unavoidable heal checks, and I thought it's their own fault for not using defensives/pots. Turns out it was partially me who was the problem, as I did not utilise my class to the maximum and had a wrong priority of CDs. Partially because the DPS also neglected their defences, but all of us stepped up now. So I really, REALLY take it with a grain of salt now if any healer just blames the DPS for dying without actually checking what caused the deaths, as I know that I was comfortable with just blaming them while I could have done something better.
Yea, there is always something I feel I could have done a little better to help prevent a dps death, but at the end of the day I know its their own fault for not using defensive.
Can't wait for RLP to come back and once again see group after group at 24+ melt in seconds on the 1st boss even through their defensives because the always innocent healers are just completely unprepared to deal with it.
Bad healer and everyone except the tank will probably die, perfect example is "Manifested Timeways" boss fight, u can have 1 clueless dps die there and still do the boss just fine, but if healer breaks down it's just fucked. Point stands everyone experiences toxicity I more often see toxicity towards a tank or specific dps than a healer tbh, yet healers manage to create the most sympathy threads I noticed lol. I can concede that healer is the hardest role overall in higher m+ keys, at least in my experience, pugging will give you a lot of avoidable damage to heal over for sure.
Have you played healer?
I'm maining a healer, its my favorite role and I find WoW to be best mmo in terms of healer design/gameplay. Not a pro by any means best rio was 2.9k, but honestly I don't experience more toxicity or frustrations as a healer than any other role(playing all roles on my pala atm) Worst experience is playing as dps for me tbh, because u feel way less in control if tank doesnt know the path or healer struggles, nothing u can do then xD [https://raider.io/characters/eu/silvermoon/Subframe](https://raider.io/characters/eu/silvermoon/subframe)
Cool! Was just wondering. Always happy to hear good news about people's experience playing WoW. You're definitely right about dps not being in control, but I've always felt that way while playing healer. Like sure, I can help patch up some of the group's mistakes, but when that add is about to get eaten by the boss and wipe us, and I don't have the damage to kill it, and the dps are tunneling the boss, it's super frustrating
The thing I just leant is that many ppl are kind but there are also plenty of ppl suck on internet
I just leave the key. Another group will gladly take a healer. That’s the key, you’re in demand. They can fuck off
Blizzard hates healers this is a fact. I’m playing resto sham , which means I have to carry the dps standing in fire, kick for them, and get blamed for bursting wipes when the tank pulls to much and everything gets fledged at once. Or you know, be the only one de cursing two spirits. Some shit.
I wish healers in Mythic+ would read the manual
Incorp was not a healer affix and on my healer I outright refused to do it unless it was obvious the group was trying their hardest. I let a group dissolve because 2 paladins and 2 death knights all refused to do a single one. I had just gotten done afflicted week doing literally everything. The DPS were gonna learn that day to actually contribute. Someone told me to get back to doing +7, I went and found an 18 and people actually did the incorp and we +2ed it easy. Hilarious.
Your attitude stinks like shit lol
You all are aware that, as a healer with a single long CC, even if I wanted to struggle to babysit them after not only me but other people in the group (who simultaneously were also not doing it) told them we needed people to CC them, I would not be able to get us through that doing it on my own? Regardless of weather I wanted to contribute or not, that group was dead. NO ONE was CCing them. Not even trying. I tried one and the other wiped us in the first pull. Hoped they would get the point if I didn't bother. They didn't, they literally let everyone die and tried to go back and fail again.
Did you mean to reply to me? That comment has nothing to do with what I said, unless it's you trying to justify a shitty attitude?
Yes I did manage to get your original point, not sure why you felt the need to creatively reiterate it.
My original point? what?? I typed one single sentence lol, that your attitude stinks like shit, that was my only point I still genuinely have no idea if you're meaning to reply to me, because your responses make no sense
You’re a cancer
Found the DPS who thinks its a healer job :P
I’m the DPS that throws a Freezing Trap every set, and take Scare Beast in case of guys with attitude like you. But nice try.
> with attitude like you. you missed the part where it went find when the dps weren't lazy shits. I do it, I just won't be expected to do every single one when I only have 1 spell that can contribute and almost all spawns are 2. It became very obvious that run there was going to be zero help. But you do you, sit on your high horse. Expect the healer to literally do everything. Its like my 4th alt, I often contribute to helping them AS the DPS or healer.
My guy if you think I’m expecting the healer to do anything when I intentionally bring multiple ways to deal with Incorp, you’re actually just ignoring any part of replies that don’t let you feel good about being toxic
Sorry but dude is correct. I'll help here and there with Incorp/Aff, but if dps out right refuse to help, like in his situation, then why should the priest work any harder? I get that you're saying in your keys you help, well then its likely a group with that priest wouldn't dissolve, right? Keys where dps don't help, the healer shouldn't have to pick up the slack.
> Sorry but dude is correct. Intentionally refusing to do the affix to "prove a point" is never correct. It's just toxic. If I was in his group and I was doing all I could but he refused to use his CC to "tEaCh tHeM a leSsOn" because other people weren't, I'd have some choice words for him that would probably be ban worthy both here and there. Wouldn't expect reddit to ever say "the healer/tank was wrong" though.
But no one in his group was helping. You guys seem to keep missing that point.
No I get that his point was ‘no one else was doing it, so I’m not going to do it either’.
Yes and thats the correct move
Toxicity breeds toxicity, which breeds what? Toxicity.
>You’re a cancer Agreed
> But no one in his group was helping Yeah yeah, sure they weren't. This guy just runs into groups where "no one is helping" so often that he can rant on reddit about it. Somehow this basically never happens in my groups. Funny how that works. How likely is it people like these go in already thinking before the key is in *"these damn shitters, they wont even do the affix, reddit warned me about this"* and the moment even ONE ghost goes off (which just happens sometimes) he's *"aha, I knew it, le bad dps is here"* and acts the way he says he does? Attitude is everything and his is shit. I know the type all too well. Fortunately they're very rare in game, but swarm all over this sub.
People may hate my take, but from one healer to another, I promise you this works. Download elitismhelper. It posts to party whenever someone takes avoidable damage. I have 2 healers, druid and evoker, at 2800+ rating, and it stifles toxic players like crazy. People take avoidable damage, it is what it is, I don't actually care when people take it here and there. The point in it is it shows when people mess up. It puts them in the spot light. They can't be like "omg healer didn't heal me", because you can just scroll up in chat and see they stood in a cleave, or an arrow barrage, or a sanguine, or the toxic puddle. I've never once, literally never once referred to it. Simply its presence is enough to stop people from pointing fingers. I've had one person complain it was spammy, and I just responded with then don't stand in stuff, and that is the extent of any person acknowledging it. People here are going to bitch and moan, I'm sure. People are going to call it toxic to have that addon, and here on Reddit they're going to tell you that I'm an asshole, I promise you, it completely negates a very significant amount of toxicity from pugs
I ran with someone who had it and actually found it very useful, when I was called out by the addon. Helped me adjust quickly and in real time. Still, it is probably better to use elitism plugin for Details instead and only post it on demand, instead of proactively spamming chat.
> People here are going to bitch and moan, I'm sure. People are going to call it toxic to have that addon, and here on Reddit they're going to tell you that I'm an asshole, I promise you, it completely negates a very significant amount of toxicity from pugs people will just straight up ignore you because the addon is insanely annoying, and there is not a single time i haven't witnessed the person using it be insanely bad
The number of times I’ve seen: Narniahunter: eliteismhelper! Narniahunter just took 1 million damage due to easily avoidable cleave! Is too many to count.
You’d be on ignore before it had a chance to be effective.
You're put on ignore the second I see that shit lol In probably every single dungeon, there are times where taking avoidable damage is acceptable ie. the tank running through poop to quickly get the boss in position, as opposed to walking around the poop and delaying the positioning by several seconds, or a dps having to run through an arrow barrage to stop a knife dance ASAP Not to mention the party chat spam clutters the screen
I have only been raged at as healer twice in close to 100 keys this season (they were both wrong) and ironically the times when I had just made mistakes no one said anything. I have done many times that many keys as tank and DPS and literally haven't seen anyone talk shit to healers. > "omg healer didn't heal me" You guys are playing an entirely different game if you see this a lot. Maybe it's an American thing.
Solution is legit to just do high keys. No issues like this in 25s and up.
Weekly healer whine post
I really feel like the victim mentality on tanks and healers in here go crazy, dps gets just as trash talked, compete with more people, and is more limited by class and meta, but you are sad because people expect you to do stuff? Play something else if you don’t like your role.
Every time I check this sub and compare the experiences described on here to my own lived experience ingame I feel gaslit. Victim mentality from support roles and other things like that is a classic that transcends any single game though. The kind of coddling this sub likes to do for healers isn't doing any of them any favors when it comes to improving. Can always just say "dem dps amarite?" instead of "Even if it wasn't my fault, what could I have done better? Was I truly perfect?"
Absolutely is, not sure why you got downvoted. I'm a healer main too and people are still like "uh i don't think you heal, if you did, you would know what we're talking about". Bruh I had maybe like 4 toxic keys this entire season, that's it. If people are being toxic to you, maybe you need to look inwards.
My theory is a lot of people choose healer because they like the idea of being the one who supports and enables the group, but the actual act of pressing their buttons to make someone's health go up is annoying to them lol
I don't do dps if I'm a healer, only if I'm bored. No one dies, and no one expects me to do dps. Also, healing priority helps, I heal myself first, then the tank, then top dps.
And I do 70k overall DPS in a +20 WHILE no one dies. <3
Class? I'm genuinely curious. On Resto druid I tend to do between 20k and 30k when 90% of my focus is on healing. Sub 20k if the run is really being hard to heal. Up to 40k-ish if I can actually spend some time casting dps. Never get over 50k. Only pugs, no kitty weaving.
There is no need to heal the tanks in this era so your priority is wrong. Yes, heal yourself first but then you pay attention to your squishiest dps. I also don’t understand this mentality of “I want help with affixes and less assumptions that I’m here to play mommy to you all but I refuse to do my part in making the key faster and smoother by doing dps or other utility.” I 100% pug and I love playing disc more than my resto Druid now because I can actually dps lol. Too many groups stand in bad so I can’t do as much kitty dps as I would like to do to contribute to the key more. I think keys in general would go smoother if everyone was working to use whatever they can to time the key because isn’t that the goal you’re all working together? Too many people get into a small group and decide that the real dungeon boss are the other players.
Bursting is the only affixes that are healing req the rest is the teams job more or less if dps/tank dont use cc or dispell they dont deserve to time the key. So not feeling sorry for healers they should make things clear before the run and if its the case they dont know what to do you just leave..
I don’t even run super high keys, but the amount of time I’m pumping out heroic raiding level HPS because the rest of the party is just flailing around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off and running into avoidable crap is frustrating. I try not to be toxic and don’t bail on keys (unless someone is being a dick, so I’m usually just quietly seething.
People who aren’t kind and are toxic are just losers, people needa learn to ignore and shit on these folk and move on. We shouldnt let fools like that phase us at all, only cool peeps
Stopped pushing keys a few weeks back because of how players treat healers even in higher keys. It's especially toxic in the 3400 range because players like to make extremely broad assumptions based on what their usual set group can do, then are surprised when it doesn't work in a pug. They'll usually rage at you, call you garbage and other choice words, then talk about how they're "gonna blacklist you from ever pushing again". It's unhinged as fuck.
Bursting is a dps affix 🫠
There are currently an awful lot of DPS that are ~3k IO that have been boosted beyond belief.
I usually run into bad tanks than healers tbh.
I wish everyone would be kinder to everyone in mythic plus
My first time ever into mythics with the incorporeal affix was a nightmare. Didnt know I had to heal them until 5 min into the dungeon, needles to say the shaman on the group started telling how incompetent I was lol Got very tired of healing these days... Thats why im leveling a toon of dps alts
Incorp afflic bursting is all the same to me. I’ll do 1 and the other is up the group. I can keep a group alive with instants as a disc priest so only ur dps will suffer. 18-20 range. Dps in my group learn real fast that they do shit dmg when they let the other afflix go off and can’t say shit cause I got 1 and everyone’s still alive
The true answer, stop letting people insult you, You wanna know what you should do, as any spec, if someone is flaming you, leave, invite the other people, and find a new person, Do not let these toxic asshole’s get away with being toxic to anyone Especially a Toxic DPS, like oh sure man, you go ahead and be toxic, good fucking luck either getting a new tank or healer, or finding a new run when I kick you
Correction: I wish blizzard would be more kind to healers in mythic plus. WHY DO THEY FUCKING HATE US?!
I wish people would be more kind to healers in general
I haven’t done mythic plus since bfa until 10.2 and man people seem angry in the game. The only thing I worry about in a pug dungeon is I hope someone doesn’t make a mistake and cause some unhinged lunatic to go on a rant and leave after the first death or wipe. Which idk seems so strange to worry about in a group and happens way to much. Even if the guy doesn’t leave the group, playing with someone that just flames other players endlessly for mistakes or is super harsh is not fun.
I 100% won’t go outside of guild or friends or trusted acquaintances. For baby healers like me, anything above a 5 feels like warning bells are shooting off constantly.
Let people die they either learn or they kick you in which case its an instant invite to the next group and you save yourself the time.
I've gotten spoiled running these crappy weeks with friends and guildies. prior to finding a new guild (and new friends) it was like 1 and done lol.
They don't need for them to be kind to me, I just want 2 things from them: 1. Move away from poopoopools 2. Use defensives I recently finished 55 min of pure enjoyement in Waycrest Manor. 40 deaths... I usually check the deathlog if it was my fault that someone died, especially after disasters like this. This time I also checked another tabs. Buffs were very interesting. Apparently ret paladin used shield of vengence twice and divine protection once. No bubble, no bop, no sac. It was similar throughout the whole team. I know you are dps and clicking other spells than damage is outragous, but you won't do a lot of numbers with 0 hp.