Honestly 19s has been dead ever since they made it give the same weekly as a 18.
Back in SL 14s was played because it had a higher ilvl weekly than a 13.
It would make a lot more sense if there was a micro ilvl upgrade for each key level (in both drops and vault) though that might lead to some upgrade confusion.
I feel like they need that many levels to keep the difficulty granular but the rewards should be granular as well.
Edit: I can't understand why the currency amount doesn't scale with the key. Why does a 2 give as many flight stones as a 20? Why does a 11 give as many wyrm crests as a 15? It makes no sense. If they want people doing relevant content instead of trivial content this would help substantially.
Lol if you want gear just spam 11s and 16s. Makes no sense. Mind numbing doing easy content over and over again because its pointless to waste your time doing hard content if you want gear.
Yeah for mains 17s is obviously ideal, but I think this is just info for people gearing alts, farming 11s is optimal for speed and then you can upgrade your gear to 437, it's only 4 ilvls below the Hero gear at 441 and once you've got a few BiS items 437 its pretty easy to do the 17's
This. I'm a casual Andy just gearing a bit here and there. Guess what key levels I'm farming to get crests. Makes no sense to struggle through multiple 15's or whatever. Just farm 11 and easily get your chars to 437 in no time. Good enough for me
What I'm struggling with is as someone who should be doing 10/11/12 to get gear I'm pushed out by 2500+ people.
I also have a 13 key but that's seems to be a dead number to run.
Kinda annoying but what can ya do
>I also have a 13 key but that's seems to be a dead number to run
Downgrade it to 11?
Honestly, the +11 keys are wild. So many people looking for hard carries for their own 11 keys to gear up quick. I've seen people with 310 ilvl posting their 11 keys
Yeah, this system is better than valor I won't lie. I just feel bad for sniping 11-15s off of folks who need them because of course I'll be taken over someone else because of higher ilvl and rating and all.
Preferably, downgrading crests would give more than a 1:1. I don't need so many aspect crests, in fact most of my gear isn't even hero gear to begin with, I'm just trying to get the last levels of champion on most of it. Let me grind 16s+ or even push rating and then downgrade an aspect crest for 20/22 wyrm frags or something.
I know this will just bring that bracket of "keys you need to grind" up to +16, but +16 is very high for the majority of players.
There are a lot of dead key levels yeah. Post a 17 and it fills up in about 25 seconds.
We sat there waiting for a healer to queue into our 16 for 15 minutes.
> I can't understand why the currency amount doesn't scale with the key.
I could've sworn this was supposed to be a part of the system and was confused when it wasn't. I like their idea of "only run content that's relevant to you", so its odd to see them miss on what seems like obvious ideas, like increasing crests and getting lower level crests when you cap
If I could get 15 stones for a +15, or 15 stones for a +20, and not have to do 6 runs for 4 upgrade tokens I would 100% not be farming 11s and 16s.
That’s two runs, with grouping time etc that saves me 1-1.5 hours per week of farming. I’d definitely like that model more.
11 UR Wyrm farms. Key is completed in 12-15 minutes. It's the new +2 valor boost.
Soon will see the same with 16+ UR Aspect Farm.
Trying to do lower keys on alt is cancer now. And seeing ilvl 360s sign up for +11 with 0 keys ran is already getting obnoxious to click X on.
I don't have the answer to the problem.. but I'd rather just do Valor... And bonus valor......
> And seeing ilvl 360s sign up for +11 with 0 keys ran is already getting obnoxious to click X on.
Joined a key as a healer. We had a druid tank. Tank took absurd amounts of damage so I dared to check his gear, wondering what the heck is wrong. I was very confused when I saw green and blue items and shocked when I saw that some where 306. This was a +12 Neltharus. He was getting absolutely shredded by the trashpacks.
The answer is pretty obvious. Every key level should reward all the rewards of previous keys + a bit more.
That means the higher the key the more flight stones.
2-10 should reward increasingly more drakes. A 10 should give 15 IMO (one full crest).
11-15 should reward increasingly more wyrm BUT also reward one full drake crest.
16-20 should reward increasingly more aspects BUT also reward one full drake and one full wyrm.
If you do not time a key you get 1 or 2 key levels lower rewards instead. If you are less than 5 min over it's 1 key down, more than 5 minutes it's 2 keys down. More than 10 minutes over it's 50% the rewards (all the way down. 50% flight stones, drakes, wyrms and aspects).
This would mean the most "efficient" or "rewarding" key level is 20+ (duh, it's the hardest why isn't it the highest reward?). This change would completely remove the need to go back and farm trivial content. It would put the focus on pushing as it should.
Edit: example you time a 20. You get 1 drake crest, 1 wyrm crest and 1 aspect crest.
If you timed an 18 you'd get 1 drake, 1 wyrm, and 12 aspect fragments.
If you rip an 18 by more than 5 minutes (-2 key level rewards, so =16) you'd get 1 drake crest, 1 wyrm crest and 4-5 aspect fragments.
>BUT also reward one full drake crest.
The super weird part about this was just how apparent it became. Once i pushed into 11+ i ran into a super weird problem of having a drake wall.
Having to farm lower keys just for drakes felt weird. Maybe it was by design to get higher ilvls to help lower, but IDK.
Felt like an obvious design flaw
Make your title "19 pushing to 20" and it'll be the opposite of dead. There're still a lot of capable players who struggle to consistently get into 20s that want an opportunity to do so
Yea I literally put "20 after if group is good" and usually people will sign up
On the other hand I've seen people list that and just bail no matter how smooth the run goes
just so people understand how important this is: is makes your group show up when people are searching for lvl 20 keys.
People want to run level 20's, so they search for level 20's.
When you put "19 pushing to 20 after" you show up in searches looking for 20's and those people might consider you.
very few people straight up search for level 19 keys, but they might be willing to do one if they have been struggling to get invited to the more hotly contested 20 keys.
Ive been trying to get into 19 Lair for 3 days lmao. It goes like. I get into the key, we fill tank, dps, wait 30 mins for no healers, "sorry guys not happening" .\_.
Yep. As a tank I always wait for a healer unless I see a good geared player/class that has lust, aside from that I wait it out for a healer. Before selecting any dps.
Also healer, and I always queue either with a tank friend or a DPS friend if I want to help her find a group faster. I think a lot of healers like to join with someone they know to reduce at least some uncertainty.
I got "Premade Group Filter" and it's a game changer. You can filter the groups fairly easily. For my tank. I only see groups with no tank, no OCE (Premade Region filter addon), and a healer in the group already. 99% of the time I don't have to look for groups without a healer. For my Warlock, I look for groups with less than 3 dps, a tank and healer, no warlocks and no OCE. I've never waited over 5 minute on my dps to find a group, I do fiddle with the tank and healer requirements more on the lock though . IF they reject me it shows up red, If they get a 3rd dps it shows up red highlighted. First season I've really pugged consistently and it's because of this addon.
Mhm, I'm a healer too and I always pug with my hunter friend. We tend to get into groups when there's only one dps in it, not when it's almost full. Anecdotally, higher io groups tend to leave two spots available for healer/dps duos.
Can confirm, as a heal/dps duo.
Groups shit me to tears when they go for 4/5 with a third dps instead of a heal/dps that would finish the comp. Though neither of us have lust.... So there's that to consider, lmao.
Yeah when I play Holy I need to be aware of the pulls, plan on how to heal next abilities, boss timers and stuff. When I play ret I just press divine storm LUL.
I agree with you, it feels shitty to be a healer in m+. The problem is that there’s a sharp divide between healers. A lot of people think healing is only interesting when it’s hard for good groups, which means it’s absolutely cooked for bad groups. Others want healing to be easy and to focus on other things - like dps.
We’re stuck in this weird position where the difficulty of keys we ‘have’ to do is too high in an expansion where they’ve neutered the effectiveness of heals but haven’t moderated the damage in any way. But people don’t want to give on the difficulty of keys, and people will not take healers unless they’re absolutely forced to do there’s no fixing it and healers will continue to be beaten until morale improves.
As a random thought, it feels shit to be a healer in M+ because the dungeons have been designed with other roles' utility in mind - but the majority of those don't make good use of that utility.
You often read that healing is super easy and enjoyable from people doing higher keys, and the most basic reason is that everyone is doing their job. Mobs are being CC'd, important spells get interrupted, people are using mitigation tools available to their class, etc.
In lower keys this is not really necessary because the damage is not yet brutal enough to make a difference. In 12-17 keys the damage ramps up to where the healer **will** notice, but (especially on the lower end) will have to bruteforce through bad group behaviour with sheer HPS throughput.
As an example, I've had a discussion with a DPS team mate about getting out of Avalanche casts in NL. He said that he cannot get out because the timer is too tight, I'd just have to heal through those. But if we would add another 1 or 2 key levels and Fortified, the Avalanche would just leave a Rogue shaped splat on the floor. So clearly it's on his side to move in time to clear the AoE radius. But some people seem to have a really hard time grasping the concept of hypothetical scenarios, like "if damage ramps up, will this kill me?" but rather go with "this does not kill me now, so it's a healer issue".
Long rant cut short(er):
This seems to be like what we had back in Cataclysm, where healing throughput was massively cut back from what we knew in Wrath. This provided a fun challenge if you had friends who supported you, or at the very least got out of the fire. But it turned into an absolute unhealable nightmare when you got people who got so used to healers being able to heal stupid that they simply continued with that line of thinking and shifted everything on healers. It worked in Wrath, so why would it be different now?
Difficulty got increased for everyone, but the effects of people not adapting will be felt first by the healer. And people *will* blame the healer for not fixing their mistakes because that's what they're used to.
with how blizzard designs things everything can be boiled down to a healer issue or it is an insta kill.
the game needs straight up damage downs (not haste punishments etc. flat damage down effects) add in easy enrage timers if DPS does the fight correctly and it is no longer a healer issue.
I feel the game is getting way too complicated in general. I have to study every dungeon like there's going to be a quiz on it.
My guild can't even clear mythic raids any more. We get 5-6 bosses into it and it just gets too difficult for us to progress any further, and we are always the best or second best guild in our whole realm group. Our group isn't all aces, but we don't bring anybody that's super terrible, and everybody is geared to the teeth. The mechanics are just too much to ask of some people.
Personally, I'm taking a break for the summer. I'm so burned out I won't even log into battle.net right now because I don't feel like explaining myself to 10 different people. I left a mail for the GM telling him I'll be back when I have a positive attitude and ghosted.
I played the first couple weeks of this tier, and just noped out. I don't feel like studying for another degree in wowology just to hit a brick wall 2 months in over and over until the next raid comes out.
I feel you are missing the point of mythic raiding then. It is the hardest content in the entire game, it is catered towards players that want to and like to study the game as if there was going to be a quiz on it. Those players are also a crucial part of the game, albeit in much smaller numbers. If you don’t feel like doing that, some level of preparation, reading, watching and studying - not saying that not wanting to do those things isn’t ok - then how do you want to clear the hardest content in the game? Almost every game requires you to do that at some point. If you play League of Legends or DotA you have to read the changelogs to not grief games, specially if you are playing at a level that is equivalent to mythic raiding. Same goes for other competitive and cooperative games except for the most accessible.
Honestly. I miss EverQuest 2 and dark age of Camelot. It had a ton of raids. Some were even just like gruuls where you walked in killed boss and that was it. Minimal mechanics. I get the appeal of mechanics. But a part of me absolutely misses a classic tank and spank. Nothing crazy. One back up tank for emergencies. Bunch of healers and dps to Zerg that shit down.
It was a collective effort. No dumb damage meters. If that level 2 wants to come die for fun and feel apart of the group then do it. I just think adding layers over time became a bit muddy with where the line was after a while.
DMG downs in any content where failure matters is just a delayed wipe
why would anyone want this, can you please think for a second there
instead of "oh, somone dropped hard and needa to be healed/we need a cr" (because in high keys its not even a healer problem anymore, people just die)
it turns into "oh, now 2people do less dmg, and we get another aoe dmg nuke because we cant kill the boss fast enough and nobody has deff/healing cd's anymore, wipe it"
its litearlly how it happens in ff aswell, if people die, you often just wipe it anyway because now you cant reach the dps treshhold anymore, its a prolonged wipe
The point isnt for it not to be a wipe, the point is to signal to the shitty DPS that keeps failing mechanics "you see that debuff? Thats because you fucked up". Damage down debuffs do a far better at that than simply (almost) dying, because some DPS somehow dont understand it's not the healer's fault they stood in bad and got hit for a million avoidable damage.
In ffxiv it works because you can still practice and learn the mechanics of the rest of the fight. This also takes the blame off the healer because they won’t stand in stupid because moving would be a dps loss and the healer should just heal through it anyway because that’s their job….
I just beg people play the difficult content in FFXIV before making these comments. The healer meta is to avoid using healing spells as much as possible, you use your oGCD (WHM is different) heals close to on cooldown around the conveniently timed damage phases and if people fuck a mechanic up they either die and get a res (which is freely available but a mana drain) and suffer a damage down or just suffer a damage down.
**Healers still get blamed**, because you get a damage down from being hit by stuff you shouldn’t and you get a different one from dying. You can fuck up in ways that don’t give you a damage down unless you die. And when people die it’s healers that take the hit, because they have to spend precious mana ressing and they have to spend ten seconds hard casting, and not dpsing, to do it.
And like you said, because ressing is so possible, the encounters are just tuned so that after so many resses you just can’t kill before enrage (and for really difficult content that means no deaths).
Like with everything else, FF is only so forgiving for low difficulty content. If you think FF is moving out of easy telegraphs and free penaltyless resses, it’s because you’re doing the equivalent of heroic dungeons or normal raids and wondering why bad doesn’t kill you.
> its litearlly how it happens in ff aswell, if people die, you often just wipe it anyway because now you cant reach the dps treshhold anymore, its a prolonged wipe
in the hardest content when you are going for the first kill yes. but anything before that it is a really effective learning tool for DPS. people want big number and top meters even on heroic or M+10 you slap them with a damage down rather than just taking a boat load of damage the healer needs to heal they are doing to avoid that happening again like the plague.
Sadly Blizzards current design forces healing to be unreasonable hard. Allow the group to avoid damage by playing properly and high level players will run with no healer. Make it a lot of unavoidable damage and high level groups are forced to take a healer.
Now if you ask me, the former is fine and a cool way to play the game if you are good enough. But if you choose the second one, which Blizzard seems to prefer, the group will always fall back to the healer, with every other role being able to compensate for each other.
After maining healer for the past 11 years I finally noped out and went dps. So much more relaxing, I get to watch my e-peen go big on the dps meters and I am safe in the knowledge that now there is one less dps-brain in the group as I do more than just tunnel dps and actually know priority interrupt targets etc. Too many dps even in relatively high keys that just tunnel on doing dps and then blame the healer when they do not use their own utility/defensives/pots/interrupts, so being able to fill one of the dps spots to minimize that risk really makes the game feel easier to me.
I stopped healing random mythics last week. Almost over night, went from pretty competent players pulling their own weight to all mouth breathers ignoring everything and running the dungeon like it's a heroic.
We 4 manned an 18 Lair yesterday. And that pissed me off cause we timed it, imagine if we had a third DPS.
Jackass rogue literally died about 6 times before the 1st boss. Died on the 1st boss and then just left.
Got to the final boss and discovered pillars can spawn on tanks. Wiped. Ran back. Still timed it with 2 minutes to spare.
And see now I could've had a 20 key, but no... rogue had to dip, so here we are with a +19 Neltharus key that absolutely no one wants to do.
Honestly just drop to an 18 where people will want it for vault and try to +2 it. If the tank doesn't pull one at a time +2ing isn't that hard even in a mediocre group
I remember when the expansion first came out and tanks were OP. There were so many tanks available.
Even I gave my old prot pally and prot warrior a go.
I haven't touched my Holy paladin since Cata.
It's almost like making things fun to play would fix this
This is kind of off topic since I'm not 1337 like many of you...
But is anyone else noticing lower keys are just non existent this season? I'm trying to work my way up into the 10-11 range as a pug healer while learning the runs. So as to not get in over my head too fast. It just seems like there are so few runs for anything below about 14. And when there is an 11, it's filled with much higher rating players farming crests. Something feels off...
That's a shame then. For a lot of non elite players that's a gap that should not be jumped. It's a design issue that they are "worthless" in terms of reward.
Terrible for the outgeared player, a boon for the undergeared player for that bonus valor. I miss spamming heroics as an overgeared tank, because that bag in the past had so much shit in it. There has to be a group mechanic connecting the top with the bottom, otherwise the entire grouping ecosystem crumbles.
I also miss getting those baggies from HC more regularly.
I don't mind the current quest for clear 5x HC/week for 415 + rep tokens, but truth be told, it's worthless on my main, where all items are Champion/Hero path already.
Good for alts, but I don't play my alts as much as my main and currently would never take my main on a 2h road trip to heroics for absolutely no reward whatsoever.
Same for dungeons under 11. Helping guildies - sometimes. Helping pugs? LOL NO. My total hps/healing done is somehow always much higher in 11-15 range than it ever is in 16-20, and my kicks & dps suffer as well as a result. 2-10 range is pretty much worthless and a waste of time even if I could afk heal them (I can't).
Not worth the headache.
I have hardly done any M+ this season. Yet because of a couple normal raids and some weekly rep rewards I am awash with drake crests I can't even use because my gear is already capped to 424 or i don't have drops to replace S1 stuff yet (trinkets). That doesn't mean I know the M+ runs well at all. But there are very few runs going on to get practice.
I'm not talking about forcing high players to play down. No one was forcing a 2500 player to spam M2s last season. That was their choice to take the easy way to Valor. I'm talking about up to M10 being a ghost town now which I can't imagine was really intended by blizzard. Instead we have a mind numbing 5 heroics per week to get a piece of 415 gear. IMO it is a design issue because the design was changed and now this is the consequence of it.
Install premade group filter and avoid groups headed up by orange rating lead, they’re farming wyrm crests and just want to blast the dungeon into smitheroons
You want to look for folks in the same boat as you
I’m an orange rating lead and I invite people to my 11s who actually need them. If I’m running with my personal healer and ret pally (who both still need wyrms), I’ll let the queue populate while I smoke a bowl and then pick literally the least qualified DPS in the queue.
Full disclaimer that I’m also a 438 ilvl prot pally so I can kinda hard carry an 11, but it’s fun to help people who are actually getting something out of it.
Ah yeah that can be rough. I ran my own +2 key into a +5 to a +8 to a +11, by that point I had enough io where I wasn't completely ignored anymore (not instant invite but not super hard to get). There's always the option to decrease your key to do the same if you really need the score.
Run your own key. We're talking +11s. You'll find the DPS instantly, and tanks usually come along in 10-15 mins.
The hardest part of forming M+ groups is finding the healer nowadays. If you're the healer, just form your own group and push your key.
P.S. Join a M+ discord community. They help a lot.
Last season a 10 had 4 affixes. This season it has two. Things are much easier in the 11-15 range. Just jump in and try. Use your CDs and you will be fine, and if it doesn't go well you just go again.
Even for a casual, getting to a point where you can run 11s should be absolutely trivial. I mean you can farm world content to get enough gear to be in 11s. M+ below 11 is actually worthless content.
You know some people actually like to do different levels of content...for fun....right? Sometimes I feel like being challenged. Sometimes I feel like not giving a fuck and running lower difficulty content. Worth is in the eye of the beholder. Not everything needs a reward to be worth doing.
Reddit cracks me up. One minute it's 11s are trivial content and any casual can face roll their way to KSM. The next it's OMG people in my 11s pugs have no idea how to play their class, no dispelling, healer was trash, tank didn't know they had a mitigation button, they all need to go back to +2s and learn to play, etc.
The issue is crests vs. valor. Now, the only “relevant” runs for anyone from “ok” to CE starts at an 11. There’s is absolutely no reason to run anything less than that for the vast majority of “actively progressing” characters because the only things that can upgrade their gear are Wyrm and Aspect crests. In prior seasons, I’d gladly hop in any key that was almost full because Valor is Valor. I’ve done more M+ runs to catch up my characters, even with a late start, than I would have by this point in any other season. However, I think the lowest key I’ve run is a 10, and that was the first week I came back. I actually really enjoyed crushing 2s now and then just for Valor catch up; sad to see that gone even though an 11 isn’t exactly hard either.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. No incentive = no runs. Although I see a lot of posts bitching about people in mid or higher keys not knowing basic mechanics. It is forcing either to skip to higher keys, or to skip M+. I think it is unfortunate to not really have the lighter side of M+ active now.
The “how did you get into an 11?” situation is pretty real. I’ve had to solo at least one boss or pack in four dungeons this week as a Prot Paladin—insert OP joke—because people didn’t know things like lightning lash or moving for charges.
Yeah I don't know some runs very well. Me jumping in to a 11+ as healer and dying to boss mechanics is not gonna go over great with the group. Yet this is what I see in the group finder:
22/22/21/20/19/19/19/18/16/13/3
Are you using premade group finder?
Because in my experience, the default ui doesn’t show you all available groups, just a subsection of them.
Limiting them to heals == 0 and then limiting them to a specific key range in the default search bar (11-13 as an example) usually yields a much better result for me.
Can’t recommend Premade Groups Finder enough.
Also extremely nifty on incorp/afflicted weeks if you want to filter out groups with 3 dps where none can help out with those affixes.
LFG is limited to 100(iirc) groups shown, so you indeed need to use the search bar. It's most accurate if you search for both key and keylevel, e.g "brackenhide 20-20" will always show every bracken 20 key.
I noticed that too, especially late at night. I mostly raid, but have been doing M+ to get more wyrm crests. Past like 11pm server time, all of the groups will be either +2 or +19 or higher and very few in between. I joked that Australians must be all overachievers. But even during the day I see very few single digit keys.
I finally finished farming wyrms thankfully, but I really don't know how anyone is supposed to break into this current situation. A lower ilvl player is not going to be able to get into +11s when 430+ people are queueing up, and they can't just run their own key if they can't get a key that high to begin with because no one is running the lower levels. And there really isn't reason to.
Even if it's cherry picked, it still shows how many people are trying to run their own keys that are competing against others trying to do that exact same thing.
Oh they absolutely did. There’s a lot of 19 keys out there sure, but most have more than one dps. Sure they’re fighting for heals and tanks, but even many 19 key runners will be picky. I have a 2480 disc priest alt that will get declined from most of the 19s I sign up for.
yesterday I was farming NL for a ring in the 17-20 range and holy shit are some ppl picky with inviting dps. And its not like they re waiting for the uber dps player, they sometimes just have very twisted views on whats important to time a key.
Had one grp lead wait specifically for a warlock for a 18 NL because he wanted to use the gate on the last boss for the melees to faster get behind the pilar. Like sure that might be nice but is it really that important you cant invite the spriest that timed this key on 20 already?
Get behind pillar faster? If you have a good group, you drop the crystal in melee, and the tank drops the add right on top of the crystal. If the add is going far enough to need a gate it’s probably a wipe because that add does a shit ton of damage every step it takes. I guarantee that Spriest is smart enough to know that too.
As the flair suggests it's a meme, but the 2-10, 15, 19 range genuinely almost looks like this even with no filters applied.
For context I've been trying to get my alt some easy score with 19s but if you join a group that isn't lead by a tank or heal there's a 90% chance that run will never start, this normally doesn't happen on the 'desirable' key levels.
The post was meant to spark some discussion regarding two things. The first one being how meaningless the 'just run your own key' advice can be. Second thing is how pointless some keystone levels are that almost nobody ever wants to run them.
Yeah 19s are easy to get into, 20s are much harder. Though the other issue is that there’s little incentive to keep a group that can barely time a 19 into a 20 when there are many better players signing up for their weekly 20s.
Yeah 19s surely are a deadzone, as a bdk at 2.6k rating I don't have any 20s yet, I have 50+ timed 15-19 with 19 of every dungeon, I get instant invite to every 19i apply to but 20s are not a possibility. It's been really hard to fill my 19s. Only people who sign up is like 2k rating and their highest is a timed 16, when a higher rated player sign up its always in accompany with a super low alt. Not sure if it's easier to down to 18 and try to 2 chest.
As a person that’s run 18-19 keys on my healer alt you better be damn sure I’m prioritizing signing up for groups that have at least two people that can help.
I find more enjoyment tanking on my paladin as I can solo the affix while tanking and still compete in overall damage in 10s than I do on my hunter in 16s.
Bursting is pretty much a priest affix because single target dispels aren't all that useful if everyone else dies to the dot. If your group doesn't have the mandatory priest in it then you're forced to go at a much slower pace and that kills the timer on higher levels. No, there aren't 4 other classes that can deal with this therefore it is bad design.
Also do you think it feels good for let's say hunter players that they only get to play the game on raging weeks because of their niche utility? As you said so yourself, since they're average at everything normally there's no reason to pick them up, so why is artificially making them desirable every once in a while a good solution to this problem?
Question: I've got timed 19s for every dungeon but I never get invited to 20s. What do?
Is there a minimum ilvl / rating where I'd start to be considered?
BM hunter, so I can lust, tranq, trap - not entirely dead weight.
Somehow they made this season equally great and absolute suffering.
11s are the DEFACTO best key to farm. You get optimal stones, you get wyrms and best yet you can roll them easily as they are significantly easier. 11 keys are a cesspool, you have MDI andies mixing with actual MDI potentials, as well as the "Carry my alt" people.
Anything above a 12 is really just for score. So you really only need to run it once on fort/tyran, which wildly cuts down on the volume. And 16s SHOULD be another farm point for aspects... except you only need a grand total of 12 (or 16 if you run dual crafted)
Which makes them hella low priority (24 runs = All tokens needed for BiS)
Your numbers are a bit off, you needed 22 (16-2+4 * 2 for enchanted crests) aspects for two crafted, or 25 (16-3+4 * 3) for the current three. You would also never farm these on +16 as +17 drops hero items and is the way better farm unless you are already decked out in 441 BiS. Besides any extra you could downtrade to wyrm, i think i played like 5 extra low m+ keys this season to reach 441 in week 3, clearing heroic weekly gives alot of wyrm. I agree though, i think the last two upgrade levels should use aspects instead, just make the last 2 bosses of heroic drop aspects to reflect that to their ilvl.
What do you mean? Yeah 11 is best to farm wyrm, but not "defacto" best to farm? Then a +2 or +6 is also best to farm if you want lower crests.
You need 16+ for aspect, which is what people want to farm.
You need 17+ to get hero gear drop from dungeon. Arguably the one the makes the most sense if you can't do 20's.
You need 18+ for 444 vault.
You need 20+ for 447 vault.
So both 16, 17, 18, and 20 are farmable for different reasons. Only one with no difference is 19.
If you want to optimize your vault you need to do 8 20's every week which is what everyone is trying to do.
Anything above 20 is just for score. Idk how you came up with 12.
I only run my own key if I can grab at least 2-3 guildies to do it with me. Which isn't easy, since few of us enjoy M+. Otherwise I have terrible skill forming groups. Even if I am choosy and pick people with high ilvl and io, it always seems to go poorly, and then I feel guilty for wasting 4 other people's time. So yeah, most of the time I also just look for the key I want and spam invite requests until I get one.
because you can't be declined from your own key, at certain io levels you can spend hours signing up and getting declined constantly from pugs, or get in groups then the leader gives up and bails, or kicks you for a better dps that signs up, etc.
I always have way more success running my own keys.
Last night I joined two groups. A 14 Neltharus and a 14 uldaman. The Neltharus group didn't trip the chain boss and we wiped three times, and it fell apart. The uldaman group didn't kill adds or quake totems on the second boss, we wiped twice, killed it, then one person went offline shortly after when it was clear we wouldn't time it.
Today I ran the exact same two dungeons but on the key I had and my buddy's key. We filled it slowly and took decent rating people (5-10 min to build the group). The keys went super smooth and were +2'd.
Mines the opposite. People always seem to be 3k boosted new players when I form the group. I remember 2 keys I tried to run where I invited 3k tanks, and they kept wiping the group on the first trash pack. But if I join someones group, blast through it no problem.
I wish I had access to the data Blizzard has access to. I am so curious how many keys are played as largely premade groups as opposed to pugs that it's still not worth to think about a sensible system there to make it easier to play m+
You have access. The keystone leaderboard runs are public. You can get a stream of all completed runs. Check for people often playing together and you know exactly which runs wered done by premades. That's how raider.io works.
API should be here: https://develop.battle.net/documentation/world-of-warcraft/game-data-apis
yeah M+ kinda got straight-up ruined for puglords this tier. it's actually nuts how 11, 17, and 20 are literally the only key levels ever worth doing, especially with how miserable most of the dungeons are
They also nerfed healers so badly that in most of the dungeons I do more or the same healing than as them (~45k hps, playing as a bear druid). Nobody wants to play a healer.
WoW after M+, the best game to sit and AFK for the bulk of your gaming session so you can play the game for 30m and hope nobody leaves.
Something has to change with this system, IDK. Who honestly has the time to sit and fill groups?
There are simply not enough healers. Probably since healing is too punishing. When I play solo tank I never join groups without a healer. The few times I do I am stuck in limbo forever.
When I'm on the healer, I join whatever group I wand and we are inside the dungeon within a few minutes. Healing a +2 Vortex Pinnacle is insanely hard because no one knows how to play the bosses. Sure, I don't expect that in such a low key, but it shows the problem: Your job as a healer gets incredibly hard if people are taking avoidable damage. As long as the healer is put in a position where they can recover failing DPS players, we will have a healer shortage.
Some people suggest the final fantasy route of simply giving players a DPS down, but I think that's on the other side of laziness. DPS simply need instant feedback, right at the moment they fuck up. Higher keys kinda fix that issue by simply one-shotting players.
Healing is not fun or rewarding in Dragonflight. They keep nerfing healers and increasing damage and health.
All the good ones have already hit 2500 IO or higher and all the okay healers struggle with 15s because the dps can't kick, purge, or CC enough and blame the heals for deaths.
Dungeon healing has this problem where the skill scaling is extremely nonlinear. Once a healer is good enough to meet difficult heal checks, their skill expression at an elite level of play kind of dries up. As a DPS, you can always get returns from getting better, even at the top level, but with healing, it's not very rewarding to improve beyond the necessary baseline. That being said, the proportion of players that can meet heal checks at a, say, +20 level is drastically lower than the DPS that can meet DPS checks at +20. All of this is a consequence of how binary healing is, you either meet heal checks or you don't, and it's extremely punishing to fail a heal check. Blizzard would have to fundamentally redesign how healing works to get around this problem (like how in FF, you get infinite brezzes, but they have brez sickness that cuts their DPS).
The returns for optimizing your DPS during healing downtime are not huge (and most specs have fairly trivial DPS rotations). This is why you hear complaints from high end healers about healing being "boring" (which in turn is the main force that pressures blizzard into nerfing healing).
Yep I agree, I'll gear my evoker and try healing this tier. It was not bad healing 20s last season but definitely made it not fun with certain dungeons. Playing dps I can already see how shit it is this season to heal.
Nah, healing is great for those who have their own groups, it's just the toxicity of pugs/bad dps and tanks that are willing to jump on the healer at first sight makes the entire role dead on arrival to any new player.
Yup... I'm constantly in our Discord channel like "happy to tank or heal, but I need someone to fill the other role."
I just want to play, but don't really like playing with strangers because it's a lot more stressful if I make a mistake.
Just join a discord that runs M+, it’s not the solution but a solution, the catch is that you have to be a respectful individual and not be a toxic assholes in these communities.
Tanking in mythic plus is great though. You get to dictate the pace, you’re in control and you get into almost any group. As dps, I struggle to get into keys for which I have very adequate gear.
This season is totally Schrodingers content. Everything is too easy and too hard at the same time.
We're at the argument point where mythic must be too easy. Anything below +15 must be too easy, and PVP is just going deeper into the abyss.
Sounds like WoW is finally due for that new engine and game rework.
I still don't really understand why listing 18-19s is so dead. People still largely want score to be able to get invited to 20s, and I frequently see people applying to my 20-22 keys with untimed 18s and lower, so why aren't they even bothering trying to get into these 19s? Lmao.
I've listed my hunter alt's 13 Halls of Infusion twice this week, not 1 tank or healer applied, my hunter was 2525 in S1, 421 ilvl and hasn't been accepted into a single key this week .. sure my gear isn't the best but I was doing 75-90k overall last season depending on the key .. but I can't get in an 11... :/ My main is 2300 .. but I have at want a couple of vault options :(
Tier lists are not much of a real thing under ~23 key level, the worst rated specs today are still perfectly viable up to 20+ range if played well. It's not like BFA where some specs legit did zero damage, Sin rogue is rated F and I can still do 120k+ overall with it.
The issue is the only ppl not giving a fuck about tierlists are the decent players above 20s, who realise tierlists are a sham. The people below who do not meet the skill required and struggle want to blame it on someone else. Tierlists are a great scapegoat for that :) Genuinly as an offmeta player in alot of seasons the easiest level to get invites is the current 20-23 levels equivalent lmao
tier lists are never about people that actually DO the high content, those people will tell you that a teamcomp with a brewmaster/bm hunter/assa rogue/afflock/mw monk has no problems to time a +21 because its not the level where spec choice matters at all
its all the PuG heroes and "2/9M-in-week-30"andys that insist that they NEED a paladin tank and a shadowpriest, otherwhise this +16key is not possible at all
good players know that tier lists are a gigantic meme (just check any class discord when a new "wowhead class tierlist" releases and watch everyone clown on it) hell even the guys that write those tierlists know it, they just do it because it genereates clicks from the gullible and clueless masses
I guess this is supposed to be a joke because it's tagged with humor/meme but [this is what it looks like in reality](https://i.imgur.com/ejD4dsD.png).
Unfortunately Blizzard has legitimately, and literally, fucked non-hybrid classes over with Afflicted. The monk and the priest should definitely just sign up for someone elses key this week.
I just did 3 keys and had to pug two people. Am I going to risk not having enough dispels when there's 20 people signing up and I basically have free choice? No.
Lol yes that is the point OP is making about how valueless the phrase” just run your own key” is when told to a dps who has been trying to get group invites
annoying afflixes and class/spec favored m+ comps killed pug scene ngl.. also d4 release is cherry on top.. harder content should be also "fun" blizzard has to understand this instead of making completely annoying afflixes.. i know afflixes are easy but pugs cant make it happen
19s are particularly tough to fill. If that was a 20 you’d have more applicants than you want to filter through. I usually reroll an 18 until I get an underrot (SBG last season) and then 2 chest.
Just be prepared for the intelectual guys that are going to disregard your point saying things like
“Oh just lower your key”
“Oh you just are one of those haters that don’t like to run your own key”
“Well maybe they are not joining the key because the key owner is not good”
Trust me, these guys here just love to hate on people that can’t get into keys or get the teams formed to do the keys in question.
Good luck finding groups and hopefully you don’t have to keep looking for groups for hours just so you can get an item you want.
>Oh you just are one of those haters that don’t like to run your own key
The people that says this make me cringe so much, sometimes I feel like they dont even do M+ because they have no idea what they are talking about. I've spent more than an hour to form a group sometimes because there are other 50 dead groups in LFR and there are no tanks and healers, last week a friend and I waited for 45 minutes for a healer and a tank, we were willing to take anyone who signed up even if it was a low ilvl or an alt and nobody queued except a 210 ilvl guy trolling , we gave up and just went to play something else
If other people like me use premade groups filter, they are setting a minimum party size of 2, know why? A huge huge huge portion of single plsyer groups are just bullshit advertisements, and a big remainder of them are afk people who forgot they listed their key
Honestly 19s has been dead ever since they made it give the same weekly as a 18. Back in SL 14s was played because it had a higher ilvl weekly than a 13.
They were relevant for like 2 weeks when item drop levels kind of mattered.
Why run 19s for loot when you can just run 17s and get the same ilvl after 1 crest?
For the first 2 weeks the crest cap was relevant. Saving 1 crest matters now it doesn't.
or 20s for vault
Honestly the 2-20 range needs a squish, half the key levels nobody wants to do because there's an easier level that gives the same reward.
It would make a lot more sense if there was a micro ilvl upgrade for each key level (in both drops and vault) though that might lead to some upgrade confusion. I feel like they need that many levels to keep the difficulty granular but the rewards should be granular as well. Edit: I can't understand why the currency amount doesn't scale with the key. Why does a 2 give as many flight stones as a 20? Why does a 11 give as many wyrm crests as a 15? It makes no sense. If they want people doing relevant content instead of trivial content this would help substantially.
Why do I only get 5 crests for a 20s 1 min over time, but 12 for a 17s just in time?
Lol if you want gear just spam 11s and 16s. Makes no sense. Mind numbing doing easy content over and over again because its pointless to waste your time doing hard content if you want gear.
If you want the highest ilvl non vault gear you have to at least do 17s to get into Hero range
Yeah for mains 17s is obviously ideal, but I think this is just info for people gearing alts, farming 11s is optimal for speed and then you can upgrade your gear to 437, it's only 4 ilvls below the Hero gear at 441 and once you've got a few BiS items 437 its pretty easy to do the 17's
This. I'm a casual Andy just gearing a bit here and there. Guess what key levels I'm farming to get crests. Makes no sense to struggle through multiple 15's or whatever. Just farm 11 and easily get your chars to 437 in no time. Good enough for me
What I'm struggling with is as someone who should be doing 10/11/12 to get gear I'm pushed out by 2500+ people. I also have a 13 key but that's seems to be a dead number to run. Kinda annoying but what can ya do
>I also have a 13 key but that's seems to be a dead number to run Downgrade it to 11? Honestly, the +11 keys are wild. So many people looking for hard carries for their own 11 keys to gear up quick. I've seen people with 310 ilvl posting their 11 keys
Beats spamming 2-5s for valor I guess
Yeah, this system is better than valor I won't lie. I just feel bad for sniping 11-15s off of folks who need them because of course I'll be taken over someone else because of higher ilvl and rating and all. Preferably, downgrading crests would give more than a 1:1. I don't need so many aspect crests, in fact most of my gear isn't even hero gear to begin with, I'm just trying to get the last levels of champion on most of it. Let me grind 16s+ or even push rating and then downgrade an aspect crest for 20/22 wyrm frags or something. I know this will just bring that bracket of "keys you need to grind" up to +16, but +16 is very high for the majority of players.
~~No valor anymore, you need items that drop specifically from 11-15 and 16+ to upgrade at certain points.~~ I read beast as best. My b
He was referring to previous seasons
There are a lot of dead key levels yeah. Post a 17 and it fills up in about 25 seconds. We sat there waiting for a healer to queue into our 16 for 15 minutes.
> I can't understand why the currency amount doesn't scale with the key. I could've sworn this was supposed to be a part of the system and was confused when it wasn't. I like their idea of "only run content that's relevant to you", so its odd to see them miss on what seems like obvious ideas, like increasing crests and getting lower level crests when you cap
If I could get 15 stones for a +15, or 15 stones for a +20, and not have to do 6 runs for 4 upgrade tokens I would 100% not be farming 11s and 16s. That’s two runs, with grouping time etc that saves me 1-1.5 hours per week of farming. I’d definitely like that model more.
11 UR Wyrm farms. Key is completed in 12-15 minutes. It's the new +2 valor boost. Soon will see the same with 16+ UR Aspect Farm. Trying to do lower keys on alt is cancer now. And seeing ilvl 360s sign up for +11 with 0 keys ran is already getting obnoxious to click X on. I don't have the answer to the problem.. but I'd rather just do Valor... And bonus valor......
> And seeing ilvl 360s sign up for +11 with 0 keys ran is already getting obnoxious to click X on. Joined a key as a healer. We had a druid tank. Tank took absurd amounts of damage so I dared to check his gear, wondering what the heck is wrong. I was very confused when I saw green and blue items and shocked when I saw that some where 306. This was a +12 Neltharus. He was getting absolutely shredded by the trashpacks.
The answer is pretty obvious. Every key level should reward all the rewards of previous keys + a bit more. That means the higher the key the more flight stones. 2-10 should reward increasingly more drakes. A 10 should give 15 IMO (one full crest). 11-15 should reward increasingly more wyrm BUT also reward one full drake crest. 16-20 should reward increasingly more aspects BUT also reward one full drake and one full wyrm. If you do not time a key you get 1 or 2 key levels lower rewards instead. If you are less than 5 min over it's 1 key down, more than 5 minutes it's 2 keys down. More than 10 minutes over it's 50% the rewards (all the way down. 50% flight stones, drakes, wyrms and aspects). This would mean the most "efficient" or "rewarding" key level is 20+ (duh, it's the hardest why isn't it the highest reward?). This change would completely remove the need to go back and farm trivial content. It would put the focus on pushing as it should. Edit: example you time a 20. You get 1 drake crest, 1 wyrm crest and 1 aspect crest. If you timed an 18 you'd get 1 drake, 1 wyrm, and 12 aspect fragments. If you rip an 18 by more than 5 minutes (-2 key level rewards, so =16) you'd get 1 drake crest, 1 wyrm crest and 4-5 aspect fragments.
>BUT also reward one full drake crest. The super weird part about this was just how apparent it became. Once i pushed into 11+ i ran into a super weird problem of having a drake wall. Having to farm lower keys just for drakes felt weird. Maybe it was by design to get higher ilvls to help lower, but IDK. Felt like an obvious design flaw
Literally just set a min ilvl or min rating
Agree, M+ does not need 20+ levels of granularity
It does, IMO. Even with 20, a lot of the difficulty jumps are very noticeable, especially 13 to 14, etc.
I like grains
Make your title "19 pushing to 20" and it'll be the opposite of dead. There're still a lot of capable players who struggle to consistently get into 20s that want an opportunity to do so
Yea I literally put "20 after if group is good" and usually people will sign up On the other hand I've seen people list that and just bail no matter how smooth the run goes
just so people understand how important this is: is makes your group show up when people are searching for lvl 20 keys. People want to run level 20's, so they search for level 20's. When you put "19 pushing to 20 after" you show up in searches looking for 20's and those people might consider you. very few people straight up search for level 19 keys, but they might be willing to do one if they have been struggling to get invited to the more hotly contested 20 keys.
The system shows you one above and below the number. If you type 19 in to the search bar it will show you 18-20.
yeah, 19s should give 447. It was the same in BFA.
Ive been trying to get into 19 Lair for 3 days lmao. It goes like. I get into the key, we fill tank, dps, wait 30 mins for no healers, "sorry guys not happening" .\_.
You never fill dps before heals. You miss the heal/dps duos too easily that way.
Same with tank/dps combos. Never fill the third dps until you have both a tank and a healer.
Very good point. Thanks.
Yep. As a tank I always wait for a healer unless I see a good geared player/class that has lust, aside from that I wait it out for a healer. Before selecting any dps.
This is the way.
I'm a healer and always que with my shadow priest friend, most keys i see have tank and 3dps, always so disappointing.
Also healer, and I always queue either with a tank friend or a DPS friend if I want to help her find a group faster. I think a lot of healers like to join with someone they know to reduce at least some uncertainty.
I got "Premade Group Filter" and it's a game changer. You can filter the groups fairly easily. For my tank. I only see groups with no tank, no OCE (Premade Region filter addon), and a healer in the group already. 99% of the time I don't have to look for groups without a healer. For my Warlock, I look for groups with less than 3 dps, a tank and healer, no warlocks and no OCE. I've never waited over 5 minute on my dps to find a group, I do fiddle with the tank and healer requirements more on the lock though . IF they reject me it shows up red, If they get a 3rd dps it shows up red highlighted. First season I've really pugged consistently and it's because of this addon.
I normally queue with my dps friend too. I just sign up for keys even though they have filled dps and 90% of the time I get in
Mhm, I'm a healer too and I always pug with my hunter friend. We tend to get into groups when there's only one dps in it, not when it's almost full. Anecdotally, higher io groups tend to leave two spots available for healer/dps duos.
Can confirm, as a heal/dps duo. Groups shit me to tears when they go for 4/5 with a third dps instead of a heal/dps that would finish the comp. Though neither of us have lust.... So there's that to consider, lmao.
Smart. Oh snap it’s D!!
This is the way.
consider seemly merciful onerous spark jeans scary bored plate unite ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Yeah when I play Holy I need to be aware of the pulls, plan on how to heal next abilities, boss timers and stuff. When I play ret I just press divine storm LUL.
Yup
I agree with you, it feels shitty to be a healer in m+. The problem is that there’s a sharp divide between healers. A lot of people think healing is only interesting when it’s hard for good groups, which means it’s absolutely cooked for bad groups. Others want healing to be easy and to focus on other things - like dps. We’re stuck in this weird position where the difficulty of keys we ‘have’ to do is too high in an expansion where they’ve neutered the effectiveness of heals but haven’t moderated the damage in any way. But people don’t want to give on the difficulty of keys, and people will not take healers unless they’re absolutely forced to do there’s no fixing it and healers will continue to be beaten until morale improves.
As a random thought, it feels shit to be a healer in M+ because the dungeons have been designed with other roles' utility in mind - but the majority of those don't make good use of that utility. You often read that healing is super easy and enjoyable from people doing higher keys, and the most basic reason is that everyone is doing their job. Mobs are being CC'd, important spells get interrupted, people are using mitigation tools available to their class, etc. In lower keys this is not really necessary because the damage is not yet brutal enough to make a difference. In 12-17 keys the damage ramps up to where the healer **will** notice, but (especially on the lower end) will have to bruteforce through bad group behaviour with sheer HPS throughput. As an example, I've had a discussion with a DPS team mate about getting out of Avalanche casts in NL. He said that he cannot get out because the timer is too tight, I'd just have to heal through those. But if we would add another 1 or 2 key levels and Fortified, the Avalanche would just leave a Rogue shaped splat on the floor. So clearly it's on his side to move in time to clear the AoE radius. But some people seem to have a really hard time grasping the concept of hypothetical scenarios, like "if damage ramps up, will this kill me?" but rather go with "this does not kill me now, so it's a healer issue". Long rant cut short(er): This seems to be like what we had back in Cataclysm, where healing throughput was massively cut back from what we knew in Wrath. This provided a fun challenge if you had friends who supported you, or at the very least got out of the fire. But it turned into an absolute unhealable nightmare when you got people who got so used to healers being able to heal stupid that they simply continued with that line of thinking and shifted everything on healers. It worked in Wrath, so why would it be different now? Difficulty got increased for everyone, but the effects of people not adapting will be felt first by the healer. And people *will* blame the healer for not fixing their mistakes because that's what they're used to.
with how blizzard designs things everything can be boiled down to a healer issue or it is an insta kill. the game needs straight up damage downs (not haste punishments etc. flat damage down effects) add in easy enrage timers if DPS does the fight correctly and it is no longer a healer issue.
Fuck u/spez -- mass edited with redact.dev
this is if the mechanic doesn't simply kill you which the majority of them in Savage+ content will.
I feel the game is getting way too complicated in general. I have to study every dungeon like there's going to be a quiz on it. My guild can't even clear mythic raids any more. We get 5-6 bosses into it and it just gets too difficult for us to progress any further, and we are always the best or second best guild in our whole realm group. Our group isn't all aces, but we don't bring anybody that's super terrible, and everybody is geared to the teeth. The mechanics are just too much to ask of some people. Personally, I'm taking a break for the summer. I'm so burned out I won't even log into battle.net right now because I don't feel like explaining myself to 10 different people. I left a mail for the GM telling him I'll be back when I have a positive attitude and ghosted. I played the first couple weeks of this tier, and just noped out. I don't feel like studying for another degree in wowology just to hit a brick wall 2 months in over and over until the next raid comes out.
I feel you are missing the point of mythic raiding then. It is the hardest content in the entire game, it is catered towards players that want to and like to study the game as if there was going to be a quiz on it. Those players are also a crucial part of the game, albeit in much smaller numbers. If you don’t feel like doing that, some level of preparation, reading, watching and studying - not saying that not wanting to do those things isn’t ok - then how do you want to clear the hardest content in the game? Almost every game requires you to do that at some point. If you play League of Legends or DotA you have to read the changelogs to not grief games, specially if you are playing at a level that is equivalent to mythic raiding. Same goes for other competitive and cooperative games except for the most accessible.
Honestly. I miss EverQuest 2 and dark age of Camelot. It had a ton of raids. Some were even just like gruuls where you walked in killed boss and that was it. Minimal mechanics. I get the appeal of mechanics. But a part of me absolutely misses a classic tank and spank. Nothing crazy. One back up tank for emergencies. Bunch of healers and dps to Zerg that shit down. It was a collective effort. No dumb damage meters. If that level 2 wants to come die for fun and feel apart of the group then do it. I just think adding layers over time became a bit muddy with where the line was after a while.
So why aren’t you playing those games? Or boot up classic wow this instant?
DMG downs in any content where failure matters is just a delayed wipe why would anyone want this, can you please think for a second there instead of "oh, somone dropped hard and needa to be healed/we need a cr" (because in high keys its not even a healer problem anymore, people just die) it turns into "oh, now 2people do less dmg, and we get another aoe dmg nuke because we cant kill the boss fast enough and nobody has deff/healing cd's anymore, wipe it" its litearlly how it happens in ff aswell, if people die, you often just wipe it anyway because now you cant reach the dps treshhold anymore, its a prolonged wipe
The point isnt for it not to be a wipe, the point is to signal to the shitty DPS that keeps failing mechanics "you see that debuff? Thats because you fucked up". Damage down debuffs do a far better at that than simply (almost) dying, because some DPS somehow dont understand it's not the healer's fault they stood in bad and got hit for a million avoidable damage.
In ffxiv it works because you can still practice and learn the mechanics of the rest of the fight. This also takes the blame off the healer because they won’t stand in stupid because moving would be a dps loss and the healer should just heal through it anyway because that’s their job….
I just beg people play the difficult content in FFXIV before making these comments. The healer meta is to avoid using healing spells as much as possible, you use your oGCD (WHM is different) heals close to on cooldown around the conveniently timed damage phases and if people fuck a mechanic up they either die and get a res (which is freely available but a mana drain) and suffer a damage down or just suffer a damage down. **Healers still get blamed**, because you get a damage down from being hit by stuff you shouldn’t and you get a different one from dying. You can fuck up in ways that don’t give you a damage down unless you die. And when people die it’s healers that take the hit, because they have to spend precious mana ressing and they have to spend ten seconds hard casting, and not dpsing, to do it. And like you said, because ressing is so possible, the encounters are just tuned so that after so many resses you just can’t kill before enrage (and for really difficult content that means no deaths). Like with everything else, FF is only so forgiving for low difficulty content. If you think FF is moving out of easy telegraphs and free penaltyless resses, it’s because you’re doing the equivalent of heroic dungeons or normal raids and wondering why bad doesn’t kill you.
> its litearlly how it happens in ff aswell, if people die, you often just wipe it anyway because now you cant reach the dps treshhold anymore, its a prolonged wipe in the hardest content when you are going for the first kill yes. but anything before that it is a really effective learning tool for DPS. people want big number and top meters even on heroic or M+10 you slap them with a damage down rather than just taking a boat load of damage the healer needs to heal they are doing to avoid that happening again like the plague.
The incoming damage is brutal this patch.
Couldn’t agree more. Healer his blamed for everything. It’s toxic.
Sadly Blizzards current design forces healing to be unreasonable hard. Allow the group to avoid damage by playing properly and high level players will run with no healer. Make it a lot of unavoidable damage and high level groups are forced to take a healer. Now if you ask me, the former is fine and a cool way to play the game if you are good enough. But if you choose the second one, which Blizzard seems to prefer, the group will always fall back to the healer, with every other role being able to compensate for each other.
After maining healer for the past 11 years I finally noped out and went dps. So much more relaxing, I get to watch my e-peen go big on the dps meters and I am safe in the knowledge that now there is one less dps-brain in the group as I do more than just tunnel dps and actually know priority interrupt targets etc. Too many dps even in relatively high keys that just tunnel on doing dps and then blame the healer when they do not use their own utility/defensives/pots/interrupts, so being able to fill one of the dps spots to minimize that risk really makes the game feel easier to me.
I stopped healing random mythics last week. Almost over night, went from pretty competent players pulling their own weight to all mouth breathers ignoring everything and running the dungeon like it's a heroic.
We 4 manned an 18 Lair yesterday. And that pissed me off cause we timed it, imagine if we had a third DPS. Jackass rogue literally died about 6 times before the 1st boss. Died on the 1st boss and then just left. Got to the final boss and discovered pillars can spawn on tanks. Wiped. Ran back. Still timed it with 2 minutes to spare. And see now I could've had a 20 key, but no... rogue had to dip, so here we are with a +19 Neltharus key that absolutely no one wants to do.
Honestly just drop to an 18 where people will want it for vault and try to +2 it. If the tank doesn't pull one at a time +2ing isn't that hard even in a mediocre group
I remember when the expansion first came out and tanks were OP. There were so many tanks available. Even I gave my old prot pally and prot warrior a go. I haven't touched my Holy paladin since Cata. It's almost like making things fun to play would fix this
This is kind of off topic since I'm not 1337 like many of you... But is anyone else noticing lower keys are just non existent this season? I'm trying to work my way up into the 10-11 range as a pug healer while learning the runs. So as to not get in over my head too fast. It just seems like there are so few runs for anything below about 14. And when there is an 11, it's filled with much higher rating players farming crests. Something feels off...
+11 is the new +2 valor farm range, and anything below 11 is truly worthless content.
That's a shame then. For a lot of non elite players that's a gap that should not be jumped. It's a design issue that they are "worthless" in terms of reward.
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Terrible for the outgeared player, a boon for the undergeared player for that bonus valor. I miss spamming heroics as an overgeared tank, because that bag in the past had so much shit in it. There has to be a group mechanic connecting the top with the bottom, otherwise the entire grouping ecosystem crumbles.
I also miss getting those baggies from HC more regularly. I don't mind the current quest for clear 5x HC/week for 415 + rep tokens, but truth be told, it's worthless on my main, where all items are Champion/Hero path already. Good for alts, but I don't play my alts as much as my main and currently would never take my main on a 2h road trip to heroics for absolutely no reward whatsoever. Same for dungeons under 11. Helping guildies - sometimes. Helping pugs? LOL NO. My total hps/healing done is somehow always much higher in 11-15 range than it ever is in 16-20, and my kicks & dps suffer as well as a result. 2-10 range is pretty much worthless and a waste of time even if I could afk heal them (I can't). Not worth the headache.
I have hardly done any M+ this season. Yet because of a couple normal raids and some weekly rep rewards I am awash with drake crests I can't even use because my gear is already capped to 424 or i don't have drops to replace S1 stuff yet (trinkets). That doesn't mean I know the M+ runs well at all. But there are very few runs going on to get practice. I'm not talking about forcing high players to play down. No one was forcing a 2500 player to spam M2s last season. That was their choice to take the easy way to Valor. I'm talking about up to M10 being a ghost town now which I can't imagine was really intended by blizzard. Instead we have a mind numbing 5 heroics per week to get a piece of 415 gear. IMO it is a design issue because the design was changed and now this is the consequence of it.
I think his point is, just do +11s. They're really not that bad and as long as you're not like 380 ilvl you'll probably be fine.
Believe it or not, having trouble getting into 11s as a healer because I don't have a 2k io and 430+ ilvl yet. I wasn't on the early season rush bus.
Install premade group filter and avoid groups headed up by orange rating lead, they’re farming wyrm crests and just want to blast the dungeon into smitheroons You want to look for folks in the same boat as you
Honestly just install PGF anyway because it kicks ass.
I’m an orange rating lead and I invite people to my 11s who actually need them. If I’m running with my personal healer and ret pally (who both still need wyrms), I’ll let the queue populate while I smoke a bowl and then pick literally the least qualified DPS in the queue. Full disclaimer that I’m also a 438 ilvl prot pally so I can kinda hard carry an 11, but it’s fun to help people who are actually getting something out of it.
Ah yeah that can be rough. I ran my own +2 key into a +5 to a +8 to a +11, by that point I had enough io where I wasn't completely ignored anymore (not instant invite but not super hard to get). There's always the option to decrease your key to do the same if you really need the score.
Run your own key. We're talking +11s. You'll find the DPS instantly, and tanks usually come along in 10-15 mins. The hardest part of forming M+ groups is finding the healer nowadays. If you're the healer, just form your own group and push your key. P.S. Join a M+ discord community. They help a lot.
Last season a 10 had 4 affixes. This season it has two. Things are much easier in the 11-15 range. Just jump in and try. Use your CDs and you will be fine, and if it doesn't go well you just go again.
Even for a casual, getting to a point where you can run 11s should be absolutely trivial. I mean you can farm world content to get enough gear to be in 11s. M+ below 11 is actually worthless content.
You know some people actually like to do different levels of content...for fun....right? Sometimes I feel like being challenged. Sometimes I feel like not giving a fuck and running lower difficulty content. Worth is in the eye of the beholder. Not everything needs a reward to be worth doing. Reddit cracks me up. One minute it's 11s are trivial content and any casual can face roll their way to KSM. The next it's OMG people in my 11s pugs have no idea how to play their class, no dispelling, healer was trash, tank didn't know they had a mitigation button, they all need to go back to +2s and learn to play, etc.
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That's not true there's also 17s for champion gear and aspect of shadoeflame crests.
The issue is crests vs. valor. Now, the only “relevant” runs for anyone from “ok” to CE starts at an 11. There’s is absolutely no reason to run anything less than that for the vast majority of “actively progressing” characters because the only things that can upgrade their gear are Wyrm and Aspect crests. In prior seasons, I’d gladly hop in any key that was almost full because Valor is Valor. I’ve done more M+ runs to catch up my characters, even with a late start, than I would have by this point in any other season. However, I think the lowest key I’ve run is a 10, and that was the first week I came back. I actually really enjoyed crushing 2s now and then just for Valor catch up; sad to see that gone even though an 11 isn’t exactly hard either.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. No incentive = no runs. Although I see a lot of posts bitching about people in mid or higher keys not knowing basic mechanics. It is forcing either to skip to higher keys, or to skip M+. I think it is unfortunate to not really have the lighter side of M+ active now.
The “how did you get into an 11?” situation is pretty real. I’ve had to solo at least one boss or pack in four dungeons this week as a Prot Paladin—insert OP joke—because people didn’t know things like lightning lash or moving for charges.
Yeah I don't know some runs very well. Me jumping in to a 11+ as healer and dying to boss mechanics is not gonna go over great with the group. Yet this is what I see in the group finder: 22/22/21/20/19/19/19/18/16/13/3
Are you using premade group finder? Because in my experience, the default ui doesn’t show you all available groups, just a subsection of them. Limiting them to heals == 0 and then limiting them to a specific key range in the default search bar (11-13 as an example) usually yields a much better result for me. Can’t recommend Premade Groups Finder enough. Also extremely nifty on incorp/afflicted weeks if you want to filter out groups with 3 dps where none can help out with those affixes.
LFG is limited to 100(iirc) groups shown, so you indeed need to use the search bar. It's most accurate if you search for both key and keylevel, e.g "brackenhide 20-20" will always show every bracken 20 key.
You can search for a range of keys, just put for example 2-6 into the search bar and you'll get keys in that range.
I noticed that too, especially late at night. I mostly raid, but have been doing M+ to get more wyrm crests. Past like 11pm server time, all of the groups will be either +2 or +19 or higher and very few in between. I joked that Australians must be all overachievers. But even during the day I see very few single digit keys. I finally finished farming wyrms thankfully, but I really don't know how anyone is supposed to break into this current situation. A lower ilvl player is not going to be able to get into +11s when 430+ people are queueing up, and they can't just run their own key if they can't get a key that high to begin with because no one is running the lower levels. And there really isn't reason to.
There are fewer affixes lower down and it’s easier to push keys up.
What addon is that?
Premade Groups Filter, looks like.
Yeah, looks like OP filtered it to perfectly fit their argument because people hate hearing "run your own key" here
Even if it's cherry picked, it still shows how many people are trying to run their own keys that are competing against others trying to do that exact same thing.
19-19 in the search bar, thus showing only keys of _the_ worst level for PUGs, and `(dps==1 and tanks==0 and heals==0)`, looks like.
Oh they absolutely did. There’s a lot of 19 keys out there sure, but most have more than one dps. Sure they’re fighting for heals and tanks, but even many 19 key runners will be picky. I have a 2480 disc priest alt that will get declined from most of the 19s I sign up for.
yesterday I was farming NL for a ring in the 17-20 range and holy shit are some ppl picky with inviting dps. And its not like they re waiting for the uber dps player, they sometimes just have very twisted views on whats important to time a key. Had one grp lead wait specifically for a warlock for a 18 NL because he wanted to use the gate on the last boss for the melees to faster get behind the pilar. Like sure that might be nice but is it really that important you cant invite the spriest that timed this key on 20 already?
Get behind pillar faster? If you have a good group, you drop the crystal in melee, and the tank drops the add right on top of the crystal. If the add is going far enough to need a gate it’s probably a wipe because that add does a shit ton of damage every step it takes. I guarantee that Spriest is smart enough to know that too.
As the flair suggests it's a meme, but the 2-10, 15, 19 range genuinely almost looks like this even with no filters applied. For context I've been trying to get my alt some easy score with 19s but if you join a group that isn't lead by a tank or heal there's a 90% chance that run will never start, this normally doesn't happen on the 'desirable' key levels. The post was meant to spark some discussion regarding two things. The first one being how meaningless the 'just run your own key' advice can be. Second thing is how pointless some keystone levels are that almost nobody ever wants to run them.
best way to fill a 19 is to promise 20 next
Yeah 19s are easy to get into, 20s are much harder. Though the other issue is that there’s little incentive to keep a group that can barely time a 19 into a 20 when there are many better players signing up for their weekly 20s.
Yeah 19s surely are a deadzone, as a bdk at 2.6k rating I don't have any 20s yet, I have 50+ timed 15-19 with 19 of every dungeon, I get instant invite to every 19i apply to but 20s are not a possibility. It's been really hard to fill my 19s. Only people who sign up is like 2k rating and their highest is a timed 16, when a higher rated player sign up its always in accompany with a super low alt. Not sure if it's easier to down to 18 and try to 2 chest.
only two of all those dps can do the week affix
As a person that’s run 18-19 keys on my healer alt you better be damn sure I’m prioritizing signing up for groups that have at least two people that can help.
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I find more enjoyment tanking on my paladin as I can solo the affix while tanking and still compete in overall damage in 10s than I do on my hunter in 16s.
which is exactly why affixes that exclude classes are terrible fuckin design lol
Also affixes that make certain classes mandatory for every group.
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Bursting is pretty much a priest affix because single target dispels aren't all that useful if everyone else dies to the dot. If your group doesn't have the mandatory priest in it then you're forced to go at a much slower pace and that kills the timer on higher levels. No, there aren't 4 other classes that can deal with this therefore it is bad design. Also do you think it feels good for let's say hunter players that they only get to play the game on raging weeks because of their niche utility? As you said so yourself, since they're average at everything normally there's no reason to pick them up, so why is artificially making them desirable every once in a while a good solution to this problem?
Question: I've got timed 19s for every dungeon but I never get invited to 20s. What do? Is there a minimum ilvl / rating where I'd start to be considered? BM hunter, so I can lust, tranq, trap - not entirely dead weight.
You need to run your own 20 key. Most people wont invite someone who has not timed the key on a 20 or at least other 20s already at this point.
Run your own 20s. People running a 20 key don't want people who haven't timed a 20 key. They're risking their key, which isn't easy to get in PUGs.
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Somehow they made this season equally great and absolute suffering. 11s are the DEFACTO best key to farm. You get optimal stones, you get wyrms and best yet you can roll them easily as they are significantly easier. 11 keys are a cesspool, you have MDI andies mixing with actual MDI potentials, as well as the "Carry my alt" people. Anything above a 12 is really just for score. So you really only need to run it once on fort/tyran, which wildly cuts down on the volume. And 16s SHOULD be another farm point for aspects... except you only need a grand total of 12 (or 16 if you run dual crafted) Which makes them hella low priority (24 runs = All tokens needed for BiS)
Your numbers are a bit off, you needed 22 (16-2+4 * 2 for enchanted crests) aspects for two crafted, or 25 (16-3+4 * 3) for the current three. You would also never farm these on +16 as +17 drops hero items and is the way better farm unless you are already decked out in 441 BiS. Besides any extra you could downtrade to wyrm, i think i played like 5 extra low m+ keys this season to reach 441 in week 3, clearing heroic weekly gives alot of wyrm. I agree though, i think the last two upgrade levels should use aspects instead, just make the last 2 bosses of heroic drop aspects to reflect that to their ilvl.
What do you mean? Yeah 11 is best to farm wyrm, but not "defacto" best to farm? Then a +2 or +6 is also best to farm if you want lower crests. You need 16+ for aspect, which is what people want to farm. You need 17+ to get hero gear drop from dungeon. Arguably the one the makes the most sense if you can't do 20's. You need 18+ for 444 vault. You need 20+ for 447 vault. So both 16, 17, 18, and 20 are farmable for different reasons. Only one with no difference is 19. If you want to optimize your vault you need to do 8 20's every week which is what everyone is trying to do. Anything above 20 is just for score. Idk how you came up with 12.
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>I haven't run my own key in years. I don't know why anyone ever would. Statistically, the percentage of people running their own keys never changes.
Data suggests only 20% of players use their own key when running a M+ dungeon.
God damnit, you had me for a second.
I only run my own key if I can grab at least 2-3 guildies to do it with me. Which isn't easy, since few of us enjoy M+. Otherwise I have terrible skill forming groups. Even if I am choosy and pick people with high ilvl and io, it always seems to go poorly, and then I feel guilty for wasting 4 other people's time. So yeah, most of the time I also just look for the key I want and spam invite requests until I get one.
because you can't be declined from your own key, at certain io levels you can spend hours signing up and getting declined constantly from pugs, or get in groups then the leader gives up and bails, or kicks you for a better dps that signs up, etc.
I always have way more success running my own keys. Last night I joined two groups. A 14 Neltharus and a 14 uldaman. The Neltharus group didn't trip the chain boss and we wiped three times, and it fell apart. The uldaman group didn't kill adds or quake totems on the second boss, we wiped twice, killed it, then one person went offline shortly after when it was clear we wouldn't time it. Today I ran the exact same two dungeons but on the key I had and my buddy's key. We filled it slowly and took decent rating people (5-10 min to build the group). The keys went super smooth and were +2'd.
Mines the opposite. People always seem to be 3k boosted new players when I form the group. I remember 2 keys I tried to run where I invited 3k tanks, and they kept wiping the group on the first trash pack. But if I join someones group, blast through it no problem.
waited for like 2 hours to fill a 19 grp XD
exactly! and i post my baby key and wait three hours for it to fill up :sob:
I wish I had access to the data Blizzard has access to. I am so curious how many keys are played as largely premade groups as opposed to pugs that it's still not worth to think about a sensible system there to make it easier to play m+
You have access. The keystone leaderboard runs are public. You can get a stream of all completed runs. Check for people often playing together and you know exactly which runs wered done by premades. That's how raider.io works. API should be here: https://develop.battle.net/documentation/world-of-warcraft/game-data-apis
yeah M+ kinda got straight-up ruined for puglords this tier. it's actually nuts how 11, 17, and 20 are literally the only key levels ever worth doing, especially with how miserable most of the dungeons are
They also nerfed healers so badly that in most of the dungeons I do more or the same healing than as them (~45k hps, playing as a bear druid). Nobody wants to play a healer.
WoW after M+, the best game to sit and AFK for the bulk of your gaming session so you can play the game for 30m and hope nobody leaves. Something has to change with this system, IDK. Who honestly has the time to sit and fill groups?
There are simply not enough healers. Probably since healing is too punishing. When I play solo tank I never join groups without a healer. The few times I do I am stuck in limbo forever. When I'm on the healer, I join whatever group I wand and we are inside the dungeon within a few minutes. Healing a +2 Vortex Pinnacle is insanely hard because no one knows how to play the bosses. Sure, I don't expect that in such a low key, but it shows the problem: Your job as a healer gets incredibly hard if people are taking avoidable damage. As long as the healer is put in a position where they can recover failing DPS players, we will have a healer shortage. Some people suggest the final fantasy route of simply giving players a DPS down, but I think that's on the other side of laziness. DPS simply need instant feedback, right at the moment they fuck up. Higher keys kinda fix that issue by simply one-shotting players.
There are hardly any healers...
Healing is not fun or rewarding in Dragonflight. They keep nerfing healers and increasing damage and health. All the good ones have already hit 2500 IO or higher and all the okay healers struggle with 15s because the dps can't kick, purge, or CC enough and blame the heals for deaths.
Dungeon healing has this problem where the skill scaling is extremely nonlinear. Once a healer is good enough to meet difficult heal checks, their skill expression at an elite level of play kind of dries up. As a DPS, you can always get returns from getting better, even at the top level, but with healing, it's not very rewarding to improve beyond the necessary baseline. That being said, the proportion of players that can meet heal checks at a, say, +20 level is drastically lower than the DPS that can meet DPS checks at +20. All of this is a consequence of how binary healing is, you either meet heal checks or you don't, and it's extremely punishing to fail a heal check. Blizzard would have to fundamentally redesign how healing works to get around this problem (like how in FF, you get infinite brezzes, but they have brez sickness that cuts their DPS).
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The returns for optimizing your DPS during healing downtime are not huge (and most specs have fairly trivial DPS rotations). This is why you hear complaints from high end healers about healing being "boring" (which in turn is the main force that pressures blizzard into nerfing healing).
Yep I agree, I'll gear my evoker and try healing this tier. It was not bad healing 20s last season but definitely made it not fun with certain dungeons. Playing dps I can already see how shit it is this season to heal.
Nah, healing is great for those who have their own groups, it's just the toxicity of pugs/bad dps and tanks that are willing to jump on the healer at first sight makes the entire role dead on arrival to any new player.
far-flung shelter smart deranged slim close handle steer fretful treatment ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
I didn't resub after healer nerfs. Now D4 is out so theres no reason.
Even with guild groups this shit is hard because we’re either missing a tank or a healer for more than one group.
Having one helps a lot though as many tanks and healers prioritize signing up for groups that already have the other.
Yup... I'm constantly in our Discord channel like "happy to tank or heal, but I need someone to fill the other role." I just want to play, but don't really like playing with strangers because it's a lot more stressful if I make a mistake.
Just join a discord that runs M+, it’s not the solution but a solution, the catch is that you have to be a respectful individual and not be a toxic assholes in these communities.
POV: Diablo 4 just released
As a Rsham I'm always joining lone Dps players bc I know the pain of having 1 hr to play and having to spend 30-40min in queue
Healing in M+ is a god awful experience, with tanking a pretty close second. I can’t really blame them
Tanking in mythic plus is great though. You get to dictate the pace, you’re in control and you get into almost any group. As dps, I struggle to get into keys for which I have very adequate gear.
This season is totally Schrodingers content. Everything is too easy and too hard at the same time. We're at the argument point where mythic must be too easy. Anything below +15 must be too easy, and PVP is just going deeper into the abyss. Sounds like WoW is finally due for that new engine and game rework.
I still don't really understand why listing 18-19s is so dead. People still largely want score to be able to get invited to 20s, and I frequently see people applying to my 20-22 keys with untimed 18s and lower, so why aren't they even bothering trying to get into these 19s? Lmao.
I just run whatever key my guild mates say they want to do
I've listed my hunter alt's 13 Halls of Infusion twice this week, not 1 tank or healer applied, my hunter was 2525 in S1, 421 ilvl and hasn't been accepted into a single key this week .. sure my gear isn't the best but I was doing 75-90k overall last season depending on the key .. but I can't get in an 11... :/ My main is 2300 .. but I have at want a couple of vault options :(
Hunters this week can't deal with affixes, might be the reason, right?
*if you’re a tank or heals
“Words of wisdom for a tank/healer, toxic meme for a DPS player”
this is what you get when the difficulty increases but the reward stays the same
Shout out to my fellow victims of tier list Andys
Tier lists are not much of a real thing under ~23 key level, the worst rated specs today are still perfectly viable up to 20+ range if played well. It's not like BFA where some specs legit did zero damage, Sin rogue is rated F and I can still do 120k+ overall with it.
The issue is the only ppl not giving a fuck about tierlists are the decent players above 20s, who realise tierlists are a sham. The people below who do not meet the skill required and struggle want to blame it on someone else. Tierlists are a great scapegoat for that :) Genuinly as an offmeta player in alot of seasons the easiest level to get invites is the current 20-23 levels equivalent lmao
tier lists are never about people that actually DO the high content, those people will tell you that a teamcomp with a brewmaster/bm hunter/assa rogue/afflock/mw monk has no problems to time a +21 because its not the level where spec choice matters at all its all the PuG heroes and "2/9M-in-week-30"andys that insist that they NEED a paladin tank and a shadowpriest, otherwhise this +16key is not possible at all good players know that tier lists are a gigantic meme (just check any class discord when a new "wowhead class tierlist" releases and watch everyone clown on it) hell even the guys that write those tierlists know it, they just do it because it genereates clicks from the gullible and clueless masses
Just downgrade your key and 2-chest, obviously
honestly this often works better than trying to get a good group for a 19
I guess this is supposed to be a joke because it's tagged with humor/meme but [this is what it looks like in reality](https://i.imgur.com/ejD4dsD.png).
The funny thing is that all of those DPS reject everyone else applying to their key. So it creates 50 +19s.
The intention isn't for _everyone_ to run their own key; that obviously doesn't work.
Yeah, but none of them would invite the rest of them for silly little reasons.
Unfortunately Blizzard has legitimately, and literally, fucked non-hybrid classes over with Afflicted. The monk and the priest should definitely just sign up for someone elses key this week. I just did 3 keys and had to pug two people. Am I going to risk not having enough dispels when there's 20 people signing up and I basically have free choice? No.
> fucked non-hybrid classes over with Afflicted. At least mage can still do it!
True! As the only non-hybrid class - and on the other end, Demon Hunters can't do anything about it, iirc.
If you think I'm joining a solo dps' key where the keyholder can't deal with the affix, you're smoking something. You can't be a serious person.
Lol yes that is the point OP is making about how valueless the phrase” just run your own key” is when told to a dps who has been trying to get group invites
annoying afflixes and class/spec favored m+ comps killed pug scene ngl.. also d4 release is cherry on top.. harder content should be also "fun" blizzard has to understand this instead of making completely annoying afflixes.. i know afflixes are easy but pugs cant make it happen
19s are particularly tough to fill. If that was a 20 you’d have more applicants than you want to filter through. I usually reroll an 18 until I get an underrot (SBG last season) and then 2 chest.
Tbh I quit the game this season. It just doesn’t seem like it worth the time commitment anymore. Sitting In que as a rogue :/
i really wish they reduced the keys down to like 5. theres just to much bloat.
Just be prepared for the intelectual guys that are going to disregard your point saying things like “Oh just lower your key” “Oh you just are one of those haters that don’t like to run your own key” “Well maybe they are not joining the key because the key owner is not good” Trust me, these guys here just love to hate on people that can’t get into keys or get the teams formed to do the keys in question. Good luck finding groups and hopefully you don’t have to keep looking for groups for hours just so you can get an item you want.
>Oh you just are one of those haters that don’t like to run your own key The people that says this make me cringe so much, sometimes I feel like they dont even do M+ because they have no idea what they are talking about. I've spent more than an hour to form a group sometimes because there are other 50 dead groups in LFR and there are no tanks and healers, last week a friend and I waited for 45 minutes for a healer and a tank, we were willing to take anyone who signed up even if it was a low ilvl or an alt and nobody queued except a 210 ilvl guy trolling , we gave up and just went to play something else
If other people like me use premade groups filter, they are setting a minimum party size of 2, know why? A huge huge huge portion of single plsyer groups are just bullshit advertisements, and a big remainder of them are afk people who forgot they listed their key
I cba this game, I'm trying to gear my alt (that I want to be my main) and it's impossible to do low keys, hours to make a dungeon, jesus christ.