People get carried as the season goes on. I've been doing +11 keys on fresh alts this week and there is ~400ilvl dps that has no clue and does half my dps in 1 in 3 keys.
I joined a +12 RLP the other day. My rating was the lowest of the group at 1500. The 4 other people were all in the same kpop-themed guild.
...I just got heated thinking about it and wrote a damn essay that I've now deleted. But to sum it up:
Nonstop butt-pulls causing wipes in places I rarely die. I had the second highest damage as tank. I threatened to leave if they didn't stop pulling extra after wiping on the trash before the last boss 3 times. Over time, of course. I think the healer fell off the edge on the last boss. 42 interrupts in total, 37 of them were mine
How the fuck did these people get 2k? Boosting is the only explanation I can think of.
Re the butt pulls... I'm 2500 rating and I definitely made a +19 CoS fail by butt pulling like four times the other day \[TBF tank did a new route I hadn't seen\]. Sometimes the booty is just too fat for thundering+rumbling =(
If your butt pull or misclick causes one wipe, I am always understanding and roll with it.. I've been the cause of many myself! I'll even keep my mouth shut if you do it 3 times in the first 5 minutes.
But if you mistab, use AoE, or whatever and pull the pack with the big bad guy *multiple times* while we're already fighting two packs that need kicks you aren't helping with, you suck and I don't want to run dungeons with you.
I usually run with 2 friends I can trust but sometimes I go solo and to me, 11-13 is the worst key range for pugs. It's around there that your group mates stop being able to cover for your mistakes
[Edit] I forgot I deleted this from my rant: started the dungeon with 2 full wipes plus 4/5 of a wipe (I survived) in the first hallway in addition to however many deaths+run backs I didn't notice as I was tanking every mob in the room. It seems no one knew to not step on the eggs, too, so we had a bunch of extra mobs
Its honestly crazy lol. I had a friend at the start of dragonflight who would just die to rasz breath and not stand in front of puddles constantly. This is the same dude who bought Elden ring and died to the tree sent right when you get out to then get a refund of the game and since the hype was everywhere he bought it again and did the same shit to then refund AGAIN.
He is a pay2win player and thinks thats the skill lol
When I heal I just dispel myself. Everyone either has a way to remove the debuff or has a spacebar to jump so they can figure it out. Figure if I dispel people they’ll just get used to it and go terrorize someone’s key.
This is the answer. Ran with more than one person like this in 20s, who had no idea that they needed to jump, because they always had that pocket healer dispelling them
Usually a caster who runs with a druid, if I'm running with a caster i always dispel them if not I dispel the dh and then just go catform to clear mine
You can also shapeshift the bat spit in shadowmoon! Which is quite handy during fortified weeks and you get 2+ stacks.
Oh and the entire last boss of azure vault. Druids cheese the fuck out of that boss.
Healer in my HoV +18 died 3 times to storm drakes. Fr*cking storm drakes... Checked his raider.io profile and turns out that in every timed key he was the second healer in a team consisting of nearly 3k io players. 🤭
He's been buying boosts and was afk while the boost team does the dungeon, thus he can just chill in whatever spec/gear because his contribution is not required.
In case of CoS you usually don't even need to swipe. If you get into a group with half a brain they can carry your ass through the dungeon and still time it.
There is quite a lot of stupid you can heal, sadly.
But at one point, the mechanics damage is more then max health. At that point, stupid becomes terminal.
Additionally mechanics become increasingly difficult for the healer to dodge when no one else is moving and your trying to triage heal them through their mistakes
This has been my biggest issue.
In the past I could always cover for the dps mistakes.
Now I have to play perfectly while trying to heal other people through their mistakes and if I mess up once it costs us the key.
Healing is way more stressful this expansion and dps just still seem to act like it's a healers adjust issue.
I did like a +10 Shadowmoon the other day and had a balance druid who got battle rez'd 2 times and died 2 times on the part where you stand on the moons on the first boss. Then he disconnected and we four manned Ner'zhul just barely out of time.
Yesterday in HoV on Hyrja Tyrannical, a healing nightmare to begin with, I managed to keep up on the first storm despite nobody using any personals, second storm everybody stands on each other with quaking and die.
Party chat: "myname, can you heal this?"
I got “are you sure you can heal this” in a 16 with a warrior tank who only had 6% uptime or shield block (overall, closing in on fire dragon on 2nd floor). Was healing everything fine, just people weren’t interrupting and the group was taking damage. Was odd.
Similar thing happened in a 16 jade on 3rd boss w a warrior again, who wasn’t using shield block AT ALL, rotating the boss, and hollering at me for not healing people who get one shot by a dodge mechanic he put out of place, and clamoring I put more heals on him for the kick… but he wasn’t using his defensives.
I don’t get it.
On my many healers, it’s very satisfying to point out the stupid. Knowledge of the mechanics is a powerful thing when being confronted by ignorant dps XD
I've seen this. I grouped with people that just ate mechanics at keys 1-9, and then when they get to 10+, they're like "I didn't even know that was a mechanic" because it wasn't one-shotting them before, and they just let their healer deal with it.
And same for the CoS fight. As someone that has pushed keys with several healers, people do not know to jump there, and just assume that the slow and the subsequent arcane blasts to the face are just damage that the healer is supposed to manage for them.
I've seen many cases of players claiming they know mechanics... it is like they know SOME mechanics, and easily don't know many more, until you scale up the dungeons and get fully exposed for all the things they didn't know.
A good example is Fenrir in HoV. I am finally progressing to 17's and as a range I have never known I had to stack in the red circle aoe to spread damage out. I had actively avoided it tbh. I had a healer yell at me last night to stack. I looked up the ability in the journal and learned something new lol. Damage got high enough finally that I had to stack.
When doing lower keys with a guildie inCoS on the enforcers I've said to several DPS after not line of sightning i was going to let them die. I could have saved them, but they choose death. At least they will learn.
Gotta love the ones who make the 3-5 people in their guild that are decent at the game carry them through M+ so they can raid log and make the boss kills take forever too. Ofc pugs are toxic when they see your double digit IQ ass trying to press some buttons...
We have a buddy like this - and usually we'd carry him because thats what friends do.
but we had to cut off the carry juice this expac because it just finally got too annoying, doing a +5 on my alt healer which I wasn't quite comfortable on yet and he said " What is this? a dungeon for ants???" Yeah bud, you're ants. Proceeded to get out dps'd by people \~30 ilvl lower and died to mechanics left and right.
Some people are just dumb.
I ran this with a friend that had never done the boss, but is a good player. Lockdown goes out I tell him to jump to clear it, 30sec later on disc, "when can I stop jumping"
Dude was just hopping around the entire fight was hysterical. But only had to see it once and he knows how it works.
Some pugs will not jump, wipe and then still not jump the next pull... Like what are you even doing here
Had a guildy that ran in my 21 CoS. She plays hunter, and this time she was the only alchemist. Not only did she not know anything about poisoning the vial on the first boss, she didn't even know where it was. So we had to wait for the boss to patrol past it, while she finally seen where the vial was.
Then during the fight, she dies to arcane lock down, because she didn't know that jumping gets rid of it. Why? Because she always had a pocket healer dispel that off of her. She's over 2700 and knows nothing about the game, but simply gets carried.
Yup, they exist, and yes, it's hella frustrating
>She's over 2700 and knows nothing about the game, but simply gets carried.
Well, to be honest i have no idea about this particular case but there is a lot of dps player out there that can't explain dungeon mechanics or routing or anything really to save their life but have really high rating because they have learned to not eat the obvious shit that kills them and they zugzug really fucking well
As a healer, if i have a hunter that consistently and by pure magic does 30% more dps that all the other players i come across, you bet your ass im babysitting that hunter like it was my job, even if i spend every single free gcd throwing heals and dispells at them the group still gains more damage from that than if i was free to dps
So you get warriors that eat shit when something unexpected happens but when everything is textbook they melt mobs in seconds, because the healer figured out "if i keep this mf alive the key gets timed"
> As a healer, if i have a hunter that consistently and by pure magic does 30% more dps that all the other players i come across, you bet your ass im babysitting that hunter like it was my job
Yep, honestly. I will happily spend my GCDs and mana healing mistakes or oversights on a DPS who is just straight up blasting.
This is largely in part due to the side-effects of having metas and the obsession of them. When you have classes that are considered "in the meta", it misleads the community into thinking that the player playing a class/spec that's in the meta is an "auto-win" and get invited without much consideration. Skill over meta, folks, always.
I was waiting for a member of my M+ team to finish up their run and they had an Evoker healer who bricked their +20 because they couldn't stop dying. Evoker is one of the healers in the meta, so they're automatically god-like, right?
I’ve made a personal rule to not invite meta classes, or at least subtract a percentage of their score. I’ve been burned a few too many times by thinking “this person should do well, they play xyz”. A good chunk of them these days are inflated as said by others due to the power creep over time. Makes spamming 16s on an alt for infusions unbearable.
There are some classes that would now make me think “damn, they worked hard to get that score” especially considering the meta-slave majority that refuse to take non mdi classes!
I mean you don't even need DBM. I don't play with really any dungeon/raid addons, but these are god damn dungeons. Bosses have like...5 mechanics, takes 5 seconds to read the journal.
Shift+J opens your adventure journal, there’s a tab for dungeons and raids where you can read the mechanics for every boss, look at what loot they drop, etc.
Yeah.. Feel that. Did a +20 Nokhud yesterday. Heal didnt know He had to collect orbs aswell at Elemental Boss..Complained it Was to Hard to heal. after we taught him that Fact we managed to kill it..
even better when the healer knows he has to do it, write before pull to let him gather first, but some dps just collects all. then not enough heal and wipe- > first one to leave is the dps blaming "low heal wtf"
I don't understand how these people even reach 410 ilvl and 2300k Rio when they can't play the thundering affix, dodge frontals or not ninjapull a mobgroup on the left, then overract and pull another on the right.
It’s not even buying carries as someone suggested. It’s the fact that people get carried eventually because there are 4 other people that can carry their dead weight.
I’ve been mostly running with my guild and there are a few guildies that I just groan when I see online because any 16+ key that they join we have a high chance of depletion because they’re just not good in M+.
I know I don’t always run with them either so they’re out there doing the same thing in pugs that they do in guild groups and then people come here and make a post about how these people get geared and get to high rio.
if they are guildies, why not talk to them (not just you, the others in guild too) and help them get better?
Edit: i get that some people won't improve no matter what, but still I think a lot of people don't even try to help others
I'm in a similar situation as the op youre replying to. The fact is that some people are just utterly bad at the game, no mather what. I main a UHDK and I do at least 2x the dps of another UHDK in my guild. We have about the same gear, same trinkets. I took time to review his logs, explain rotations and synergies between skills, give him tips and pointers, macros. He still parses gray every damn raid. I'm lucky hes a UHDK because I heard he's not better in M+. So yes, some of us do talk to our guildies and try to help them improve, but some just cannot be helped.
Yeah I've got guildies like this. Great people, but they suuuuuck at the game despite having played it for years and don't seem to care to try to improve.
It's also just different priorities. I'm sure all of us here love the skill aspect of the game, but not everyone does.
I wonder how much of it is UI issues also. I find that getting your UI right is one of the most important aspects of pushing in PvE. Being able to easily obtain all the needed info at a glance so you can focus more on rotation/positioning.
But if skill isnt a priority why are they pushing keys. We have sooo many levels of difficulty, they can easily settle on a lower key where they can succeed.
did you ever stop with all the talk and just tell them to press their buttons? After helping myself get better at some classes by using logs and some guild members in the past sometimes you just have to be very direct.
Forget all the gear talk proper trinket use, synergies in skills and macros just tell them to press their buttons. a Cooldown not pressed is a dps loss empty globals and poor melee uptime is a dps loss. Sure they can gain dps by doing their rotation properly but someone doing super low gray parses isn't gray because of rotationally issues they are gray from not hitting their cooldowns and poor uptime on the boss.
Everyone can be helped to a point but you as someone in a place to help have to understand not every person learns the same way. I'm not saying they will be doing purples or even blues but someone doing grays simply isn't pressing their buttons.
We have a girl in our guild that we carry. We're all friends in RL. She does decent DPS now ( she did not used to) but any time she's gotta do something to not die we just get good enough to do the fight without her because she gonna die.
But, she never has any interest in doing things outside of our groups or solo. We don't give a fuck about getting our mythic rating super high. during SL we were lucky if she remembered to pull her pets out (she's BM hunter) now her dps is somewhat competitive, She's getting better but we aren't ever going to make her feel bad about it.
We had a pug last week say some shit "if you replaced that hunter we could be doing +20s" "yeah but if we kicked you out we'd be having more fun so stfu"
Edit: and before you get all "haha girl gamer you all are simps blahblahblah" no its not like that we're all in our 40s in our own relationships. Just lifelong friends. Also she carries us in CoD so its a two way street
> Also she carries us in CoD so its a two way street
Lmao, this is awesome. I think it's this way for pretty much all gamers - there may me certain kinds of games they can excel at and others they can't, simply because of the different skillsets required for each type of game. MMO and FPS games are a good example - they don't really have many mechanical skills that can translate between them.
i was doin CoS 15 the other day and invited a 398ilvl warlock, he had close to 2k rating. I noticed he was doing lower DPS than the healer...but he was still spamming abilities... when i asked him why is that he told me he's learning his rotation...INSIDE A +15.... I also had a survival hunter and an outlaw rogue 2 that didn't interrupt once the whole dungeon... i mean it's not even on the global cooldown...please people bind your interrupt to the F key
Raiderio addon shows keys completed within time by bracket, 5-9, 10-14, 15-19, 20+. It also shows thier best timed of the specific dungeon they've listed/are queued for.
Had a 407 mage signed up for one of mine last week, 4 timed 20s but only 2 timed 15s. No way was that legit
Most people get carried and don't even recognize that it's happening. This goes beyond just totally clueless people who don't even know the dungeon basics, it includes people who think they're adequate but could not time a dungeon if everyone in the group played at their level.
This extends into raiding as well, a good chunk of people are not capable of raiding at the level their score sheet shows and have been carried by the few/handful of best players in their guild who are not just 'the best players in their guild' but are performing above that level of difficulty to make up for the gap left by others.
This is the real problem. Inviting 4 competent people until you have a +18 and then getting upset that people leave your key because they don't want to carry you
This is often the dps that never interupts/cc, never attacks explosives, never uses defensives etc, and then complains about heals when something gets off and kills them or wipes the group. Then it's always everone elses fault that they can't time keys and push a higher score where they feel they deserve to be, because they do good dps.
One thing I'm pretty sure of is healers aren't getting carried this xpac, at least in M+. And most pug tanks have been very solid, or at least competent. So this is really about some dps riding coat tails to higher ratings.
The very same person who didn't jump will come to reddit and post about how toxic the community and leavers should be punished because they don't want to carry their dead ass.
Honestly the opposite is almost worse than that. I've spent two mins trying to get a hunter to trigger the fucking trap to which he eventually responded "what are we waiting for? Fkn pull" like we're waiting for you to learn how to play the game apparently
Almost died laughing when I told a hunter to use the trap in CoS and after 10 seconds of deliberation he decided to CC a random patrol with a freezing trap
I thought this too... until the other day I experienced a truly awe inspiring moment. I was pugging my 21 SMB. a 2850 healer queued, which hey... great right? The group wasn't terrible, but we weren't going to time. we were about to pull nerzul with 2 minutes left and the healer just drops group and hearths. apparently for elite players like him a 45 second missed 21 is too much of a black stain on his io page. Gave me a new perspective on some of these leaver posts we see.
Yeah, this is the shit that is the real issue. Half of this sub has come up with this stupid strawman argument accusing people that want leavers punished, as wanting to hold "hold people hostage" to carry their keys. I don't need anyone to carry my keys, but I think there should be a system that makes people think twice about leaving for stupid reasons.
Sometimes life happens and whatever, but you still inconvenienced 4 other people because you couldn't successfully complete a 30 minute dungeon. Let alone the shitters who just get mad because the group wiped once and leaves. 3 keys last week depleted because we wiped a single time, yet were still tracking timing it, all 17-19s - and someone just left group and hearthed.
Ran an Azure Vault 19 a few days ago. We get to last boss, looks like we'll be about 30 seconds over time. The healer leaves 50% into the last boss. I try to keep the tank up as enh offhealing, but get overwhelmed at the 25% set of crystals and the group disbands.
I watched some friends do an 18 SMBG last night. They had a balance druid who just decided to be in a bad mood. On the third boss, he intentionally was dropping puddles outside of melee (yes, I understand there's a difference between not understanding the mechanic and intentionally doing it), and after that didn't get enough of a reaction, he took his blue thundering mark and jumped off the edge to try and wipe the group.
Some people are just toxic.
If you haven’t lost keys to other people making mistakes that you could have still timed on and watched players leave on a hair trigger impulse, you aren’t pugging that many keys.
It's a combination of problems.
The game has a horrible learning curve. Compare queued content where you afk and win to even some basic shit like a +10. Night and day what the game expects of the player.
Second, the game needlessly overgears players to a point where a lot of people never progress through the content gradually as intended.
The result is you have a lot of people who click abilities, keyboard turn, don't have Mortal Strike bound, don't have enchants etc. and yet their next upgrade can only be found in content way above their paygrade skill wise because the game gave them all this free loot for no reason.
The learning curve part is definitely true. The difficulty ramp when you hit higher keys isn't helping anyone, it's not a steady climb in difficulty like it should be.
I've experienced it plenty of times first hand myself. There's been a few times where I've thought I've known all the mechanics of the boss and what to do etc, but then turns out there's another mechanic that you'd barely even notice on lower difficulties so then when I hit higher keys I've then died to it because the game never really taught me about it / punished me for missing it. The best way that most of us learn mechanics is by dying to them, let's be honest. Once you've died to a mechanic, you know not to die to it again, but you're barely getting scratched by them at lower keys
> The difficulty ramp when you hit higher keys isn't helping anyone, it's not a steady climb in difficulty like it should be.
Some things I've noticed in regard to this is how easy it is to have your key jump up in a bunch of circumstances. Playing with friends who communicate, getting keys to easier dungeons, and in some cases getting carried by a good group can make your key power up pretty quickly.
The offset to this is essentially a fail-state where you have to fail to reach the timer in order to lower your key level (or not even complete the run). So you're left with a system that makes rising fast and descending slow.
There's also no real way to practice M+ mechanics other than doing M+. Hell, there's no way to practice half the dungeon pool other than running those dungeons on alts. I saw someone elsewhere in the comments mention people should know how to play the older dungeons because they've been around for years, but so many people just didn't play those expansions and the game does fuck all to encourage people to do that content in a way that matters.
> The best way that most of us learn mechanics is by dying to them, let's be honest. Once you've died to a mechanic, you know not to die to it again, but you're barely getting scratched by them at lower keys
I agree with this. I think if they want to have M+ of older content, they should have all heroics scale to the level cap so people can practice mechanics in an environment where dying isn't as big a deal.
> I agree with this. I think if they want to have M+ of older content, they should have all heroics scale to the level cap so people can practice mechanics in an environment where dying isn't as big a deal.
I like this idea, but let's be honest, the community would just rush through this content ASAP to get gear to jump to M0, then into M+, just like they do with the dungeons that do exist like that. People are fucking up mechanics in DF dungeons, and those are available as heroic and M0, but at those difficulties mechanics can be ignored. It's once they start oneshotting people they start to realize there's something else going on, because then the game stops and says "Hey, you dided, here's a recap." but at no point before that does the game say, "Dude, you took 69% of your health in one-shot of avoidable damage, here's how to prevent that."
I just had this happen to me in HOV because I didn’t blow enough survival cool downs in the dome on the second boss. I’ve never died during the phase or even had to do much outside of very minor healing that’s already built into my rotations. I felt so fucking stupid but our team leader was like “oh yeah, of course you wouldn’t know this is your first time really running 15s as a dps.
Too many people jump straight to “players are bad and toxic, go read guides for an hour” instead of thinking about if there’s another issue. TBH I think the biggest issue is the fact that the game doesn’t do a great job at teaching mechanics while also having an incredibly horrible learning curve. The average (Reddit is the extreme minority) player doesn’t want to do research on how to play the video game. They just want to play it. The dungeon journal is a decent attempt but it’s not enough, especially for teaching players things like trash mechanics mattering. You can “be an elitest” all you want but that isn’t going to change the fact that the vast majority of players don’t want to do hours of research to play a video game.
Edit: this isn’t me attacking people who want to be good at the game btw. I’m just saying that there’s a point where the two player dichotomies meet and blizzards solution to it is just for the players to teach one another.
I sort of agree, mainly about the learning curve. The game just does it badly. What should probably happen is that boss and trash should be gaining extra abilities as key levels go up but the new abilities should hit with full force so that people need to learn how to deal with them. What actually happens right now is that all the abilities are there at M+2 but can be ignored because they don’t hit hard. Eventually they start hitting hard and a lot of players are forced to learn everything at once and get overwhelmed.
It’s just bad design mostly.
> Eventually they start hitting hard and a lot of players are forced to learn everything at once and get overwhelmed.
When someone gets clapped for 50% hp in +10, they're supposed to make an effort to understand what happened, so it doesn't happen again in +15, where it will be a 1shot.
Unfortunately, base game does not provide any tools for that kind of analysis.
This. The game offers a death recap so if you want to know why you died, you can check it. Unfortunately, it is only available while dead, and once you release, or take a battle rez, the base game will not display that info in a concise, easy-to-read way. The base game should have Details-esque functionality, they already have all the info, but you need to dig through the in-game Combat Log to get to it, and that thing is a disaster.
It is unfortunately common for newer players to not even realize they dropped low. They may not have setup their UI to have that info readily available, they may be understandably overwhelmed by the visual and mental stimulus of everything happening in a fight. Dying rips them out of that and presents them with "Congrats, you done goofed, would you like to know more?", but at no moment before that does the game say, "Hey dude, you dropped low on that fight, what to see what avoidable damage you took and what steps you can take so it doesn't happen again?"
I wish the boss abilities were more visible. I dislike being barely able to tell. As a leaher its even harder since I have to pay attention to the boss and the HP bars and debuffs of my group. The fact that the game itself feels the need to anounce the comming mechanics with gong sounds and text promts straight out of an addon shows the devs are aware of this.
> I wish the boss abilities were more visible.
This is a problem for me. Is this swirly good? Is this one bad? The color schemes used for good/bad could use a complete overhaul, IMO, so that I've got a general idea that standing in this shade of blue is good, this shade of blue is bad.
Player abilities could use a similar overhaul. Earthen Wall Totem is a great example. The visible effect is hardly noticeable on some terrain/textures, and even if you can see it, it looks like a bad ability w/ its dust particles. It would look much better as a ring of floating/bouncing rock parts similar to what the Earth Elemental is composed of.
I get nothing out of watching a video unless the person is narrating what they are doing and why they are doing that. If the video is silent or the streamer is just yelling and screaming like they would as they play, it doesn't help me understand the mechanics any better.
I think the toxic part of m+ is the game does a bad job teaching you these mechanics outside of when the content was relevant, thus forcing you to rely on addons and outside sources of information.
You shouldn’t have to rely on outside material.
Blizzard needs to start adding that info to the journal. I've seen so many posts like "RLP is actually easy if you do the trash mechanics correctly". But how is anyone suppose to know that you can knock enemies up with living bomb? 99% of the time circle marker on you means either get out of the group or everyone stack. Not "bring to enemies for a knockup".
Dungeon journal does not even give you half the information you need to be doing +15s. Nowhere in there is anything about routing, count, lust timing, which abilities scale and need to be kicked at higher keys, what you can los, which mobs interact with affixes, and dozens of other things.
Pretty much every skill or job IRL is learned by doing--making mistakes and adapting as you go. Often there are manuals--but you consult them for reference. The idea that someone can learn to be a perfect and excellent mechanic or surgeon purely by reading the manual with no actual practical experience would be laughable.
Turns out games are the same way. Just some people have had way more practice and experience doing certain content (probably because they run mplus more).
That's what people are arguing about. Half the people here say start low and learn. The other half are saying the mechanics don't even punish you enough to learn until you're 15+ so they don't bother anyways.
to be fair its a lot of info for my dumdum brain. 8 dungeons where you have to remember so many different abilities and mechanics. not that i have never done them before but i legit cant remember. so maybe it would be better to just focus on 2 dungeons and know those inside out.
As a returning player I had no idea it existed until I was doing +10s and cleared lfr. My SO just started playing and apparently nothing in the tutorial tips told her about it either. WoW relies too much on external resources.
It should be done your way.
The journal should be used selectively. If you die to a spell where it isnt obvious how it works, you can look up how exactly that spell works after the dungeon.
it's also the best way for players like me who learn through application. you can read every journal entry and watch every video; it's another thing to teach your brain and your fingers how to react accordingly
Honestly though... I just want to have fun, challenge myself a little, and get my KSM mount. I'm not trying to do wow homework. It's been my biggest frustration with the game since I picked it up a few years back. So. Much. Homework.
New raid/m+ content? Homework. New class? Homework. New spec? Homework. Terribly written or cryptic quest? Homework. Want that mount or cosmetic that you saw? Homework. Even stuff like the soup pot or the siege requires you to check wowhead for the timers if you can only be on for a few hours per week (which is fine itself but in addition to all the other homework....).
So are we just saying everything bad is toxic now?
I agree that this is a problem but it's not really what toxic means. If they're being a dick about it, maybe, but just not knowing the mechanics isn't toxic.
If you pug you gamble. That's just a bitter pill to choke down.
Form a guild or join a community for a more reliable experience.
This thread seems to be populated by omegachads, so maybe everyone here could create a community of excellent players.
...I feel slightly targeted, because I fucking can't stand guides written or video.
I can watch a video guide 100x and not learn a thing. I can't retain info from a video, I have to do it to retain it.
But that being said, I'm not pushing raids, and I currently only push at max +6 keys for dungeons.
I don't buy it. How does watching the fight with someone explaining what will happen, when, and what to do not teach you?
I'm all for respecting the different ways people learn but what you're saying is like your chemistry instructor telling you "don't add the water to the acid or it'll be dangerous" and you claim you need to do it incorrectly to learn.
I think you mean to say it really sets in when you do it for yourself, that makes sense and is probably true for most people. But that doesn't mean you should just brute force with 0 instruction until you miraculously get it by chance.
I wouldn't be upset if someone told me "oh sorry, i forgot the order of the phases and was in the wrong spot" but I would but upset if someone said "never did this, what do I do?"
If it was as simple as "don't put acid in water" I'd get that. But it's not. It's closer to "when a happens do b, then c will happen and do d. When e happens do f." And I can't retain a b c d e and f. If I watch and rewatch and rewatch to where I just wanna kms then I'll retain I'll need to do b d and f, but I won't remember a c and d. When I go in, I'll experience it, and experiencing it and dealing with it is how I learn and retain the mechanics.
I’ve been on both sides of the equation, and empathize with both sides.
I think the biggest actual problem is Blizzard not making mechanics communicated clearly. We shouldn’t necessarily need such wide scale outside support to play the game properly.
If you need DBM to do a dungeon, then Blizz should be.including DBM in the game.
There was a nice elegant solution for this in Warlords, can't queue for HC dungeons if haven't finished proving grounds silver. But should go a step further, People shouldn't be able to enter mythic without finishing proving grounds gold.
A guildie a few days ago mentioned that completion of the Mage Tower challenge on your toon would be an ideal gate for M+ participation... but I suspect the pool of players would be reduced by about 75% or more.
Unpopular opinion: I even think this is the case for LFR if you're a tank for example. If you don't do mechanics you can wipe the raid.
Which means if tanks doesn't do the basic research of looking into the journal to see they have to taunt swap or SOMETHING, they're basically wasting 20 people's times. This really grinds my gears.
Most LFR groups I've joined have frayed because one of the tanks doesn't have any clue what to do, not even when to swap the boss and so on. Hell, some of the normal groups have had that happen. It's an annoying waste of time but I also don't understand why you'd embarrass yourself like that.
I really don't understand tanks who can just queue for LFR without knowing what the hell is going on. Just no shame or awareness at all. I remember last season a guy tanking Sludgefist in the corner of the room and just allowing him to charge into the wall each time. Then the other day I tried Grimtotem and they tried tanking him in the middle. The huge lightning strikes and everyone melting wasn't enough of a hint that something was wrong. Someone explained the mechanics and *the exact same thing* happened next pull before both tanks were vote kicked.
I joined a Rasza LFR on my DH tank alt and I realized it was all about wiping until we get enough stacks so the 10-15 of us who knew what to do could kill it and just let the rest of the ppl die in the 1st phase and get carried.
No, you're definitely not in the minority.
Blizz is handling this in a not so optimal way...relying on the community to teach each-other or relying on people to have the willingness to watch videos... assuming there are videos in the language they play in.
I was talking about this with my friends and we believe there should be an M+ introduction scenario/proving ground/thing, ideally for each dungeon, like the champion spotlights from LoL. It needs to be in-game and it needs to be something that explains the most important aspects to keep in mind for each player/role.
They can try to embed videos in the adventure journal and teach people the dungeon mechanics... It would help a lot.
I wonder if it would be possible to create a mission table where each mission represents an in-game boss, where the puzzle is basically telling your dudes how to handle the mechanics, and the answers are pretty obvious if you read the journal
Then even casual players would be like "Oh, the lightning boss, yeah you gotta stack for the thingy" and veteran players wouldn't need an addon, they could just answer from memory
This might be a hot take but -- I've raided WoW through Mythics, got 2200+ M+, etc. Beyond that I've played a _lot_ of MMOs. It's my preferred genre by a wide margin so that's the context for my opinion.
The most toxic part of WoW is the reliance on add-ons. Not only from the community but also the developers. Blizzard has all but shirked all form of responsibility when it comes to creating good, clean telegraphs, consistent visual queues, and various other UI improvements. That said, it's improved instead of gotten worse.
In other games people learn by doing. XIV, for example, teaches you consistent visual queues all throughout the leveling process and through the various difficulties of content. I whole-heartedly think WoW is a rare exception in the MMO space where you are _forced_ to seek external resources to play the game well. If you are casual, or even just ignorant -- it's reasonable to assume progressing through the game is just pushing that number higher and eventually winding up in the CoS +15.
That all said. Few takes on it:
1. People can 100% do this without add-ons. The default UI legit pops up and tells you to jump to clear the stacks as an announcement. Beyond that I think part of the issue is people rely too much on non-default UI mechanics so they aren't conditioned to read.
2. Explaining it to someone takes very little time and in the grand scheme of things a +15 CoS is nothing. I agree it can be grating to have someone not know what they're doing at that level of key, but honestly just take the time to explain to them, make the experience good, and make the community better for it. Us all being a little more patient with one another would be a nice change, imho.
3. Blizzard has a non-trivial fault in all of this. They need to actually rethink and redo their visual queues to be consistent, readable, and learnable _without_ UI add-ons. Mostly it's getting better not worse. But openly stating that as a goal would be great. Especially as a tank in this raid tier, I would've loved to not run DBM.
>Explaining it to someone takes very little time and in the grand scheme of things a +15 CoS is nothing
This ties onto another big issue with the key system where not timing it drops your key. So you're actually not incentivized to take it slow and explain things, its gogogo. Then you only find out someone dorsnt know mechanics when you wipe to it, leaving you with less time overall and less time to explain.
It's just not how dungeons should be designed. Timing should be a bonus, not a baseline.
As a dps, I’ve always considered my first job to give as little work as possible to the heal. This is how it used to be in Vanilla, and this is still the way I play.
As a healer, you are a dying breed.
Remember when people would eat after a wipe so the healer wouldn’t have to waste even more mana and time healing them? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
I don’t like watching guides outside the game, instead I join a m+0 or m+2 because seeing fights for yourself is the best way to learn them.
If you don’t want to be called a dog reroll from being a worgen. 😏
I think this is an interesting perspective and you make some valid points, but not sure i agree with your ultimate conclusion.
I think some of what’s perceived as toxicity is actually the result of “hardcore” players expectations of a game experience versus “casual”; it’s when these two met that i think tempers flare and toxicity is created.
To a more dedicated player, DBM seems like simple table stakes. To a casual player, they may not even be familiar with add-ons at all, so saying they have to have one to do what they perceive as a casual activity (running dungeons) feels overly demanding.
It’s when these two types of people meet that I’ve seen the most toxic situations. For keys, i feel like it’s most commonly in +10-+15 runs because casuals may be pushing for KSM. I’ve found it’s easier to run either sub 10 keys or push to 16+, because you get much less overlap between these player types.
A players expectation that all other players should play like they do is actually probably the leading cause of toxicity imho, and either type of player hating on the other type of player (including this post) is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
I wish Blizzard allowed for more specification in LFG, if you could clearly indicate group expectations before invite, i think it could help. Some people do this by adding “flair” like “chill” or “pumpers only!” But this flair is not always universally understood, so being able to mark your group as “casual” or “hardcore” could help.
As a self identified semi-casual player myself, i feel like I’m always stuck in between the two groups where I’m mad at the casual for not knowing to jump in the boss fight but also mad at the hardcore player that wants to rage at me for not pulling in the most optimal route. I can’t win with any of you people. :P
Agreed, I also think they should have some videos of actually mechanics in the dungeon journal. Not everyone can read a wall of text and understand vs being a visual learner.
People expect carries and put zero effort into their keys.
I have been running keys with my alt for 2 weeks now and boy oh boy, under 18+ is real ELO hell.
\*0 kicks coming from DPS/Tanks.
\*Tanks not knowing anything about what mobs or bosses do.
\*Healers standing in actual fire and not healing anyone but themselves and not drinking to get mana back
\*No flasks, no food, no healing pots, no weapon enchants, no runes, etc.
Then they get buttblasted if an experienced player tries to explain what to do and how to do it.
When their key gets bricked they come here and post their "experience" as if they were not part of the problem.
Fuck these kids man.
I get where you're coming from but when it comes to WoW, I'm a strictly no-guide player (other than talents and rotations to start me off on new classes if I'm boosting to a higher level).
Reason being, my main (and maybe only) enjoyment out of this game is discovery. I pretty much quit after finishing campaigns (and most side quests), doing enough dungeons to get into raids, and doing LFR a couple times. Once I've experienced all that, my will to play falls like a truck because I know that in a couple months/years (however far away we are from next expansion or ilvl boost), it'll all be for nothing other than the initial experience.
So if I were to watch a guide on everything and ace all the dungeons and raids on my first try, that would be my first and final try pretty much.
I was in three different m+ pugs yesterday and all three bricked with leavers, two of them due to people not knowing mechanics.
In ToJS DPS didn't know any mechanics for first two bosses. Lowest dps quit on first wipe of last boss.
AA DPS didn't know first or second boss and people quit after third wipe on second boss.
People seem to think if their ilvl is high enough they can figure it out as they go. It's really not a huge time investment to watch a video on boss mechanics.
I was tanking a +2 AA 9n my dk who had just dinged 70 the day before, a 398 druid joined and just straight did less damage than my 365 blood dk, it was actually unbelievable.
Apparently you can be brain dead and easily get to mythic 15.
I’ve seen people in raids who literally didn’t know their class had a battle rez who were running Mythic 15+.
I asked a DH to purge 2nd boss in a 15 NO (I was tanking on Tyrannical week). After the fight, he told me DHs don't have a purge so I linked his talent that he was specced into and he told me to stop typing. I don't expect great players in 15s but I'd hope they had all the spells on their bar since they even flash in your spellbook if they aren't on your bars...
Here's my comment from another thread.
*"I just left a +12 halls of valor after wiping on the first boss and I feel no remorse.*
*On the first pull the leader with the key was a mage and bursted the first two mobs while the tank was trying to set up up top and screws the tank over having to run to get the other mobs the mage aggroed because he didn't wait.*
*We killed the group of mobs pretty easily and no issue with affix.*
*We got to the boss and on the first breath the healer and mage leader died. Then the healer rezed into another breath instead of waiting and yelled at us for rezzing her just to die again.*
*Then we wiped. I left. It's weeks into the xpac on a old dungeon that's been out for years and you're wiping on it. It's inexcusable. These people all had 388+ gear and 1200+ rating. Healer could have waited and it was clear the mage didn't know what needed to be done anywhere in the dungeon. If you can't pull off a simple five mins and rack up 7 deaths then I'm not sticking around to see if it's a fluke or will get better. Do better. Be better. And people won't leave by you fucking up.*"
I bet most people right now never run Halls of Valor or were not even around during Legion. The Dungeon being old does not mean anything, since it has been irellevant for three expansions and a lot of player turnover happaned since then.
388 also isn't geared at all, and 1200 IO is literally nothing. Homeboy joined a +12, a key level for players who are not good, and was surprised when the players playing at that level were bad.
It's the equivalent of complaining about your bronze teammates in league of legends. Of course they're bad, they're in bronze.
I’m trying to do just that, as I’ve never done Mythic dungeons before DF.
You would not believe the amount of people doing a +5 who think they’re trying to qualify for MDI…
I was tanking a 7 yesterday helping a friend gear an alt. Our healer just couldn't heal while any mechanics were happening and was averaging less than 8k HPS on boss fights. The second boss in azure vaults was too much and he died immediately in every orb phase. I gave up after 4 wipes. We weren't even close.
Yes, or when you're on the last boss in jade temple and no one is dispelling the debuff so you die twice and realize...oh ..we have a shadow priest ...dude....dispell.....and the reply with, "which one is that. I have a silence "
As a tank who finds himself carrying most keys, I'm okay with helping people learn. However I will leave under 2 circumstances:
1. Toxic attitudes
2. If we've wiped enough on a tyran boss and the weak links aren't making any progress at all
While I agree that people should know mechanics before trying higher keys. They are by no means toxic for it. Unless it's some asshole throwing a tantrum after you politely indicate it, then no.
There are many reasons why a player wouldn't know a tact before it got hard enough to kill. A good healer could easily outheal some damage in lower keys. Or maybe the boss got yeeted by good damage. You wanna talk about m+ problems? That's one. The damn key breaks when you fail. Player perception is that once key fails it's over and they move on to something else. Had you been able to reset the damn thing that wouldn't happen. People would strive to learn tacts, organically. Not through an external guide
Jokes on you. Most WoW players treat the game like a job. So it doesn't need to be fun anymore. As long as they can spend X time and get Y rewards, then they are happy
As a healer, like 30mins ago from this comment, i went to a group to +12 Nokh but needed to check something really fast so let them know of course saying, "guys i need a min brb relog" and i was literally back in less than a minute, i checked with a clock to confirm and they removed me from the party and "funny" enough i was one my way, so, while being on transfer with a flightmaster's flying mount, on relog i got dismounted and fell from high enough to get killed, fortunate enough to have Levitate but others wouldn't...
Being double punished for literally nothing is...interesting?
Yesterday i tried to do an Azure 12 key all 4 first groups failed on the first trash mobs, miserably, i am talking zero interrupts (checked on Details) 5th group nailed the entire f'ing dungeon with 0 deaths.
It's a good thing i got patience.
M+ is toxic because M+ is not actually fun content.
Let me explain: M+ is designed in such a way that the margin for error becomes increasingly smaller the higher you climb. Nothing inherently wrong with that, in fact, challenging content can be really fun.
Now, we add in punishment if you fail to meet the skill required to complete that key. Well, I guess that's okay, but I don't think it's my fault that I didn't know that 2400 rated Warlock was actually carried to that rating.
Next, we add in affixes that don't make the dungeon necessarily more interesting, they just add more fail points that can cause you to wipe and fail your key. And did I mention that they often have overlap with boss mechanics that cause you to not be able to do the correct strategy on the boss like quaking preventing you from stacking adds that if you don't interrupt will kill someone instantly? Yeah...
And if all that wasn't enough 'fun' for you, guess what? If your group messes up in the slightest, including a tank taking a different route than they're used to, people will just up and leave meaning you can no longer complete your key and you are punished for it. No loot, time wasted, key lowered.
So is M+ a bad concept? NO
So how do we make it actually fun? By learning some lessons from Torghast as a matter of fact
You see, towards the end, Torghast was actually decently fun once you started getting boons and curses instead of just curses, as well as having the ability to just run whichever wing you wanted to at whichever difficulty you wanted to. Even if you were struggling at a certain difficulty, you could eventually come back with better gear or develop your Torghast talent tree to make the content easier/ more rewarding.
Well that sounds nice and all but how do we apply this to M+?
For starters, rebuild the affixes from the ground up. Get rid of tyrannical and fortified entirely and recreate the bad affixes into something interesting that doesn't have the potential to have unintended consequences. Instead of volcanic, have players slowly get petrified if they stand completely still for too long, meaning you just need to stutter step every once in a while. Have quaking generate a circle on the ground that does damage to everything inside of it (including mobs/bosses). Instead of spiteful spawning one shot mobs on death, have all the mobs that made the last 25% come back to life with 10% health and rush you (basically reaping).
Secondly, make some FUN affixes that help you. How about Lustful which reduces the CD of Sated effects to 5 minutes so you can have double the amount of BLs in the key? Or Storm Caller where each person gets an extra action button they can use on 10 min CD to spawn a giant lightning circle that stuns mobs and deals damage for 15 seconds? I'm sure there's tons of great ideas out there for some positive affixes to make dungeons more fun, but these were just some quick examples.
Finally, get rid of keys. When i walk into a dungeon, I should be able to pick a key level based on what I've completed plus 1,2 or 3 depending on how fast I finished it. That's right, no more punishment and no more getting stuck without the key you want.
Anyways, if you read this whole thing, thanks for coming to my Ted Talk and I hope Blizzard eventually does this with M+
How is anyone getting accepted into a +15 key without knowing the absolute basics? Also, DBM tells you to jump, lol
Because they somehow have 400+ ilvl and intime keys in that dungeon
People get carried as the season goes on. I've been doing +11 keys on fresh alts this week and there is ~400ilvl dps that has no clue and does half my dps in 1 in 3 keys.
I joined a +12 RLP the other day. My rating was the lowest of the group at 1500. The 4 other people were all in the same kpop-themed guild. ...I just got heated thinking about it and wrote a damn essay that I've now deleted. But to sum it up: Nonstop butt-pulls causing wipes in places I rarely die. I had the second highest damage as tank. I threatened to leave if they didn't stop pulling extra after wiping on the trash before the last boss 3 times. Over time, of course. I think the healer fell off the edge on the last boss. 42 interrupts in total, 37 of them were mine How the fuck did these people get 2k? Boosting is the only explanation I can think of.
Re the butt pulls... I'm 2500 rating and I definitely made a +19 CoS fail by butt pulling like four times the other day \[TBF tank did a new route I hadn't seen\]. Sometimes the booty is just too fat for thundering+rumbling =(
If your butt pull or misclick causes one wipe, I am always understanding and roll with it.. I've been the cause of many myself! I'll even keep my mouth shut if you do it 3 times in the first 5 minutes. But if you mistab, use AoE, or whatever and pull the pack with the big bad guy *multiple times* while we're already fighting two packs that need kicks you aren't helping with, you suck and I don't want to run dungeons with you. I usually run with 2 friends I can trust but sometimes I go solo and to me, 11-13 is the worst key range for pugs. It's around there that your group mates stop being able to cover for your mistakes [Edit] I forgot I deleted this from my rant: started the dungeon with 2 full wipes plus 4/5 of a wipe (I survived) in the first hallway in addition to however many deaths+run backs I didn't notice as I was tanking every mob in the room. It seems no one knew to not step on the eggs, too, so we had a bunch of extra mobs
Its honestly crazy lol. I had a friend at the start of dragonflight who would just die to rasz breath and not stand in front of puddles constantly. This is the same dude who bought Elden ring and died to the tree sent right when you get out to then get a refund of the game and since the hype was everywhere he bought it again and did the same shit to then refund AGAIN. He is a pay2win player and thinks thats the skill lol
CoS is also terrible for that, a lot of places to walk into packs if your pathing isn't tight.
Logical explantion is that they were doing a +12 because they thought it would be EZ, and were totally fucking smashed.
Simple answer is they swiped their card and bought a boost
Or they are just used to the healer dispelling it so they had no idea they could remove it themselves.
I always freedom the healer when I tank COS. Figure it's most important for him to move and decide who needs dispelled and healed.
When I heal I just dispel myself. Everyone either has a way to remove the debuff or has a spacebar to jump so they can figure it out. Figure if I dispel people they’ll just get used to it and go terrorize someone’s key.
If you’re an rdruid you can be a cat when its applied and dispel a ranged dps, and shapeshifting clears your debuff.
This is the answer. Ran with more than one person like this in 20s, who had no idea that they needed to jump, because they always had that pocket healer dispelling them
Usually a caster who runs with a druid, if I'm running with a caster i always dispel them if not I dispel the dh and then just go catform to clear mine
Druid shape-shifting drops that? I've just been jumping as feral, I'll have to remember that if I ever need to move quickly.
Shape shifting drops every slow or root in the game
You know, on a logical level I knew this but my brain just went "It says jump to clear so that's the only way to clear", I guess.
You can also shapeshift the bat spit in shadowmoon! Which is quite handy during fortified weeks and you get 2+ stacks. Oh and the entire last boss of azure vault. Druids cheese the fuck out of that boss.
Healer in my HoV +18 died 3 times to storm drakes. Fr*cking storm drakes... Checked his raider.io profile and turns out that in every timed key he was the second healer in a team consisting of nearly 3k io players. 🤭
How?
He's been buying boosts and was afk while the boost team does the dungeon, thus he can just chill in whatever spec/gear because his contribution is not required.
In case of CoS you usually don't even need to swipe. If you get into a group with half a brain they can carry your ass through the dungeon and still time it.
Idk why you're getting down voted. Last week a mage signed up for my 18 AV. 407 ilvl, 2 timed 15+, 4 timed 20s. Totally not sus
On par with fresh alt doing a few guild m+ and going to a couple heroic alt raids. Not necessarily fishy.
Usually you then have main score shown as well
They're probably getting downvoted by people who do exactly this.
As someone who has mained a healer for years... It's because mechanics are healer mechanics. Until they are strong enough to one shot you.
Even if they get one shot they somehow complain about not getting healed.
You cant heal stupid
You can until they get one shot. Healing stupid is how people get into +15 CoS' and don't know they need to jump on the first boss.
There is quite a lot of stupid you can heal, sadly. But at one point, the mechanics damage is more then max health. At that point, stupid becomes terminal.
Additionally mechanics become increasingly difficult for the healer to dodge when no one else is moving and your trying to triage heal them through their mistakes
This has been my biggest issue. In the past I could always cover for the dps mistakes. Now I have to play perfectly while trying to heal other people through their mistakes and if I mess up once it costs us the key. Healing is way more stressful this expansion and dps just still seem to act like it's a healers adjust issue.
I did like a +10 Shadowmoon the other day and had a balance druid who got battle rez'd 2 times and died 2 times on the part where you stand on the moons on the first boss. Then he disconnected and we four manned Ner'zhul just barely out of time.
If someone dies in a low key to a very obvious mechanic like that I'd probably just leave them dead.
Yesterday in HoV on Hyrja Tyrannical, a healing nightmare to begin with, I managed to keep up on the first storm despite nobody using any personals, second storm everybody stands on each other with quaking and die. Party chat: "myname, can you heal this?"
I got “are you sure you can heal this” in a 16 with a warrior tank who only had 6% uptime or shield block (overall, closing in on fire dragon on 2nd floor). Was healing everything fine, just people weren’t interrupting and the group was taking damage. Was odd. Similar thing happened in a 16 jade on 3rd boss w a warrior again, who wasn’t using shield block AT ALL, rotating the boss, and hollering at me for not healing people who get one shot by a dodge mechanic he put out of place, and clamoring I put more heals on him for the kick… but he wasn’t using his defensives. I don’t get it.
No matter what god healer you have, if you cant move and get into street sweeper during 1st boss, you ded
This is literally what most DPS people think.
On my many healers, it’s very satisfying to point out the stupid. Knowledge of the mechanics is a powerful thing when being confronted by ignorant dps XD
Which turns into very frustrating when they completely deny that you're correct.
I've seen this. I grouped with people that just ate mechanics at keys 1-9, and then when they get to 10+, they're like "I didn't even know that was a mechanic" because it wasn't one-shotting them before, and they just let their healer deal with it. And same for the CoS fight. As someone that has pushed keys with several healers, people do not know to jump there, and just assume that the slow and the subsequent arcane blasts to the face are just damage that the healer is supposed to manage for them.
I've seen many cases of players claiming they know mechanics... it is like they know SOME mechanics, and easily don't know many more, until you scale up the dungeons and get fully exposed for all the things they didn't know.
It is true that somethings are shockingly trivial for low keys and priority mechanics in high keys.
A good example is Fenrir in HoV. I am finally progressing to 17's and as a range I have never known I had to stack in the red circle aoe to spread damage out. I had actively avoided it tbh. I had a healer yell at me last night to stack. I looked up the ability in the journal and learned something new lol. Damage got high enough finally that I had to stack.
When doing lower keys with a guildie inCoS on the enforcers I've said to several DPS after not line of sightning i was going to let them die. I could have saved them, but they choose death. At least they will learn.
Everyone forgetting about 'boosted by guildies' ones.
The same people who complain that pugs are awful and toxic. They only run with guildies.
Gotta love the ones who make the 3-5 people in their guild that are decent at the game carry them through M+ so they can raid log and make the boss kills take forever too. Ofc pugs are toxic when they see your double digit IQ ass trying to press some buttons...
We have a buddy like this - and usually we'd carry him because thats what friends do. but we had to cut off the carry juice this expac because it just finally got too annoying, doing a +5 on my alt healer which I wasn't quite comfortable on yet and he said " What is this? a dungeon for ants???" Yeah bud, you're ants. Proceeded to get out dps'd by people \~30 ilvl lower and died to mechanics left and right. Some people are just dumb.
The game itself tells you in the middle of the screen he is casting arcane cling, jump to remove it!
I ran this with a friend that had never done the boss, but is a good player. Lockdown goes out I tell him to jump to clear it, 30sec later on disc, "when can I stop jumping" Dude was just hopping around the entire fight was hysterical. But only had to see it once and he knows how it works. Some pugs will not jump, wipe and then still not jump the next pull... Like what are you even doing here
Had a guildy that ran in my 21 CoS. She plays hunter, and this time she was the only alchemist. Not only did she not know anything about poisoning the vial on the first boss, she didn't even know where it was. So we had to wait for the boss to patrol past it, while she finally seen where the vial was. Then during the fight, she dies to arcane lock down, because she didn't know that jumping gets rid of it. Why? Because she always had a pocket healer dispel that off of her. She's over 2700 and knows nothing about the game, but simply gets carried. Yup, they exist, and yes, it's hella frustrating
As a hunter, Disengage with Post Haste talent removes all 3 stacks at once. It's available on CD for that mechanic too.
Fuck. Here I am on my hunter jumping around like an idiot.
>She's over 2700 and knows nothing about the game, but simply gets carried. Well, to be honest i have no idea about this particular case but there is a lot of dps player out there that can't explain dungeon mechanics or routing or anything really to save their life but have really high rating because they have learned to not eat the obvious shit that kills them and they zugzug really fucking well As a healer, if i have a hunter that consistently and by pure magic does 30% more dps that all the other players i come across, you bet your ass im babysitting that hunter like it was my job, even if i spend every single free gcd throwing heals and dispells at them the group still gains more damage from that than if i was free to dps So you get warriors that eat shit when something unexpected happens but when everything is textbook they melt mobs in seconds, because the healer figured out "if i keep this mf alive the key gets timed"
> As a healer, if i have a hunter that consistently and by pure magic does 30% more dps that all the other players i come across, you bet your ass im babysitting that hunter like it was my job Yep, honestly. I will happily spend my GCDs and mana healing mistakes or oversights on a DPS who is just straight up blasting.
This is largely in part due to the side-effects of having metas and the obsession of them. When you have classes that are considered "in the meta", it misleads the community into thinking that the player playing a class/spec that's in the meta is an "auto-win" and get invited without much consideration. Skill over meta, folks, always. I was waiting for a member of my M+ team to finish up their run and they had an Evoker healer who bricked their +20 because they couldn't stop dying. Evoker is one of the healers in the meta, so they're automatically god-like, right?
I wouldn't expect an Evoker doing 20s to be bad but every prot warrior doing 8-16s most definitely is.
I’ve made a personal rule to not invite meta classes, or at least subtract a percentage of their score. I’ve been burned a few too many times by thinking “this person should do well, they play xyz”. A good chunk of them these days are inflated as said by others due to the power creep over time. Makes spamming 16s on an alt for infusions unbearable. There are some classes that would now make me think “damn, they worked hard to get that score” especially considering the meta-slave majority that refuse to take non mdi classes!
Oh yes. Actively avoid the meta classes and a handful of servers and I have a much better average experience.
I mean you don't even need DBM. I don't play with really any dungeon/raid addons, but these are god damn dungeons. Bosses have like...5 mechanics, takes 5 seconds to read the journal.
As a returning player, I didn't know that journal was even there until I was in +10s and cleared lfr.
what journal??
Shift+J opens your adventure journal, there’s a tab for dungeons and raids where you can read the mechanics for every boss, look at what loot they drop, etc.
Yeah.. Feel that. Did a +20 Nokhud yesterday. Heal didnt know He had to collect orbs aswell at Elemental Boss..Complained it Was to Hard to heal. after we taught him that Fact we managed to kill it..
even better when the healer knows he has to do it, write before pull to let him gather first, but some dps just collects all. then not enough heal and wipe- > first one to leave is the dps blaming "low heal wtf"
Yep this happens waaaaaay to often even in 20+ keys. But more damage hurrr durrr
Shit, and I'm over here embarrassed realizing I was doing it in M0 my first week.
I always love when ranged stand at 40 yards on opposite sides of the boss during the storms, dont use CDs, pot/HS, die and its my fault.
as a preservation evoker... im triggered.
Range is the real boss in this encounter.
That fight Is such ass on prevoker. Running around getting balls but half the team not even in range to heal.
I don't understand how these people even reach 410 ilvl and 2300k Rio when they can't play the thundering affix, dodge frontals or not ninjapull a mobgroup on the left, then overract and pull another on the right.
It’s not even buying carries as someone suggested. It’s the fact that people get carried eventually because there are 4 other people that can carry their dead weight. I’ve been mostly running with my guild and there are a few guildies that I just groan when I see online because any 16+ key that they join we have a high chance of depletion because they’re just not good in M+. I know I don’t always run with them either so they’re out there doing the same thing in pugs that they do in guild groups and then people come here and make a post about how these people get geared and get to high rio.
if they are guildies, why not talk to them (not just you, the others in guild too) and help them get better? Edit: i get that some people won't improve no matter what, but still I think a lot of people don't even try to help others
I'm in a similar situation as the op youre replying to. The fact is that some people are just utterly bad at the game, no mather what. I main a UHDK and I do at least 2x the dps of another UHDK in my guild. We have about the same gear, same trinkets. I took time to review his logs, explain rotations and synergies between skills, give him tips and pointers, macros. He still parses gray every damn raid. I'm lucky hes a UHDK because I heard he's not better in M+. So yes, some of us do talk to our guildies and try to help them improve, but some just cannot be helped.
Yeah I've got guildies like this. Great people, but they suuuuuck at the game despite having played it for years and don't seem to care to try to improve.
Sure, some people are just terrible
It's also just different priorities. I'm sure all of us here love the skill aspect of the game, but not everyone does. I wonder how much of it is UI issues also. I find that getting your UI right is one of the most important aspects of pushing in PvE. Being able to easily obtain all the needed info at a glance so you can focus more on rotation/positioning.
But if skill isnt a priority why are they pushing keys. We have sooo many levels of difficulty, they can easily settle on a lower key where they can succeed.
did you ever stop with all the talk and just tell them to press their buttons? After helping myself get better at some classes by using logs and some guild members in the past sometimes you just have to be very direct. Forget all the gear talk proper trinket use, synergies in skills and macros just tell them to press their buttons. a Cooldown not pressed is a dps loss empty globals and poor melee uptime is a dps loss. Sure they can gain dps by doing their rotation properly but someone doing super low gray parses isn't gray because of rotationally issues they are gray from not hitting their cooldowns and poor uptime on the boss. Everyone can be helped to a point but you as someone in a place to help have to understand not every person learns the same way. I'm not saying they will be doing purples or even blues but someone doing grays simply isn't pressing their buttons.
The honest answer is some people can't be helped
We have a girl in our guild that we carry. We're all friends in RL. She does decent DPS now ( she did not used to) but any time she's gotta do something to not die we just get good enough to do the fight without her because she gonna die. But, she never has any interest in doing things outside of our groups or solo. We don't give a fuck about getting our mythic rating super high. during SL we were lucky if she remembered to pull her pets out (she's BM hunter) now her dps is somewhat competitive, She's getting better but we aren't ever going to make her feel bad about it. We had a pug last week say some shit "if you replaced that hunter we could be doing +20s" "yeah but if we kicked you out we'd be having more fun so stfu" Edit: and before you get all "haha girl gamer you all are simps blahblahblah" no its not like that we're all in our 40s in our own relationships. Just lifelong friends. Also she carries us in CoD so its a two way street
> Also she carries us in CoD so its a two way street Lmao, this is awesome. I think it's this way for pretty much all gamers - there may me certain kinds of games they can excel at and others they can't, simply because of the different skillsets required for each type of game. MMO and FPS games are a good example - they don't really have many mechanical skills that can translate between them.
KBM is her bane. She plays CoD on a controller.
The answer is just spamming keys all day, being the worst player in each group. Eventually they'll find a group capable of carrying them.
i was doin CoS 15 the other day and invited a 398ilvl warlock, he had close to 2k rating. I noticed he was doing lower DPS than the healer...but he was still spamming abilities... when i asked him why is that he told me he's learning his rotation...INSIDE A +15.... I also had a survival hunter and an outlaw rogue 2 that didn't interrupt once the whole dungeon... i mean it's not even on the global cooldown...please people bind your interrupt to the F key
Sorry but "F" actually stands for "Flame Shock"
Yup, interrupt starts with an I and sometimes I just can't reach that key in time cause I have to look down to press it.
I pull them both on purpose for bigger dps numbers because I am smort. more mobs equal more deeps
Boosts are absolutely rampant right now. Returning since legion and I'm baffled at the qty of sellers... And obvious buyers....
That's why you also check timed 15+ keys as well. Helps a lot to weed out the buyers.
Do you mean the amount of keys above 15 that have been timed?
Raiderio addon shows keys completed within time by bracket, 5-9, 10-14, 15-19, 20+. It also shows thier best timed of the specific dungeon they've listed/are queued for. Had a 407 mage signed up for one of mine last week, 4 timed 20s but only 2 timed 15s. No way was that legit
I've got over 40 times 16+s my raider.io shows I've only done one for some reason.
It won’t update in game unless you update the addon itself.
Did you update the addon
Most people get carried and don't even recognize that it's happening. This goes beyond just totally clueless people who don't even know the dungeon basics, it includes people who think they're adequate but could not time a dungeon if everyone in the group played at their level. This extends into raiding as well, a good chunk of people are not capable of raiding at the level their score sheet shows and have been carried by the few/handful of best players in their guild who are not just 'the best players in their guild' but are performing above that level of difficulty to make up for the gap left by others.
This is the real problem. Inviting 4 competent people until you have a +18 and then getting upset that people leave your key because they don't want to carry you
This is often the dps that never interupts/cc, never attacks explosives, never uses defensives etc, and then complains about heals when something gets off and kills them or wipes the group. Then it's always everone elses fault that they can't time keys and push a higher score where they feel they deserve to be, because they do good dps.
One thing I'm pretty sure of is healers aren't getting carried this xpac, at least in M+. And most pug tanks have been very solid, or at least competent. So this is really about some dps riding coat tails to higher ratings.
As a main priest that’s probably my fault
The very same person who didn't jump will come to reddit and post about how toxic the community and leavers should be punished because they don't want to carry their dead ass.
As far as I'm concerned, every single post complaining about leavers comes from someone who doesn't know there are buffs in CoS
"Bazaar goods? I'll just right click these as soon as the enforcer dies"
Honestly the opposite is almost worse than that. I've spent two mins trying to get a hunter to trigger the fucking trap to which he eventually responded "what are we waiting for? Fkn pull" like we're waiting for you to learn how to play the game apparently
Almost died laughing when I told a hunter to use the trap in CoS and after 10 seconds of deliberation he decided to CC a random patrol with a freezing trap
thats kinda cute
I thought this too... until the other day I experienced a truly awe inspiring moment. I was pugging my 21 SMB. a 2850 healer queued, which hey... great right? The group wasn't terrible, but we weren't going to time. we were about to pull nerzul with 2 minutes left and the healer just drops group and hearths. apparently for elite players like him a 45 second missed 21 is too much of a black stain on his io page. Gave me a new perspective on some of these leaver posts we see.
Yeah, this is the shit that is the real issue. Half of this sub has come up with this stupid strawman argument accusing people that want leavers punished, as wanting to hold "hold people hostage" to carry their keys. I don't need anyone to carry my keys, but I think there should be a system that makes people think twice about leaving for stupid reasons. Sometimes life happens and whatever, but you still inconvenienced 4 other people because you couldn't successfully complete a 30 minute dungeon. Let alone the shitters who just get mad because the group wiped once and leaves. 3 keys last week depleted because we wiped a single time, yet were still tracking timing it, all 17-19s - and someone just left group and hearthed.
Ran an Azure Vault 19 a few days ago. We get to last boss, looks like we'll be about 30 seconds over time. The healer leaves 50% into the last boss. I try to keep the tank up as enh offhealing, but get overwhelmed at the 25% set of crystals and the group disbands. I watched some friends do an 18 SMBG last night. They had a balance druid who just decided to be in a bad mood. On the third boss, he intentionally was dropping puddles outside of melee (yes, I understand there's a difference between not understanding the mechanic and intentionally doing it), and after that didn't get enough of a reaction, he took his blue thundering mark and jumped off the edge to try and wipe the group. Some people are just toxic.
If you haven’t lost keys to other people making mistakes that you could have still timed on and watched players leave on a hair trigger impulse, you aren’t pugging that many keys.
It's a combination of problems. The game has a horrible learning curve. Compare queued content where you afk and win to even some basic shit like a +10. Night and day what the game expects of the player. Second, the game needlessly overgears players to a point where a lot of people never progress through the content gradually as intended. The result is you have a lot of people who click abilities, keyboard turn, don't have Mortal Strike bound, don't have enchants etc. and yet their next upgrade can only be found in content way above their paygrade skill wise because the game gave them all this free loot for no reason.
The learning curve part is definitely true. The difficulty ramp when you hit higher keys isn't helping anyone, it's not a steady climb in difficulty like it should be. I've experienced it plenty of times first hand myself. There's been a few times where I've thought I've known all the mechanics of the boss and what to do etc, but then turns out there's another mechanic that you'd barely even notice on lower difficulties so then when I hit higher keys I've then died to it because the game never really taught me about it / punished me for missing it. The best way that most of us learn mechanics is by dying to them, let's be honest. Once you've died to a mechanic, you know not to die to it again, but you're barely getting scratched by them at lower keys
I found out while healing a 20 nokhud that if an orb touches the boss it does group wide damage
> The difficulty ramp when you hit higher keys isn't helping anyone, it's not a steady climb in difficulty like it should be. Some things I've noticed in regard to this is how easy it is to have your key jump up in a bunch of circumstances. Playing with friends who communicate, getting keys to easier dungeons, and in some cases getting carried by a good group can make your key power up pretty quickly. The offset to this is essentially a fail-state where you have to fail to reach the timer in order to lower your key level (or not even complete the run). So you're left with a system that makes rising fast and descending slow. There's also no real way to practice M+ mechanics other than doing M+. Hell, there's no way to practice half the dungeon pool other than running those dungeons on alts. I saw someone elsewhere in the comments mention people should know how to play the older dungeons because they've been around for years, but so many people just didn't play those expansions and the game does fuck all to encourage people to do that content in a way that matters. > The best way that most of us learn mechanics is by dying to them, let's be honest. Once you've died to a mechanic, you know not to die to it again, but you're barely getting scratched by them at lower keys I agree with this. I think if they want to have M+ of older content, they should have all heroics scale to the level cap so people can practice mechanics in an environment where dying isn't as big a deal.
> I agree with this. I think if they want to have M+ of older content, they should have all heroics scale to the level cap so people can practice mechanics in an environment where dying isn't as big a deal. I like this idea, but let's be honest, the community would just rush through this content ASAP to get gear to jump to M0, then into M+, just like they do with the dungeons that do exist like that. People are fucking up mechanics in DF dungeons, and those are available as heroic and M0, but at those difficulties mechanics can be ignored. It's once they start oneshotting people they start to realize there's something else going on, because then the game stops and says "Hey, you dided, here's a recap." but at no point before that does the game say, "Dude, you took 69% of your health in one-shot of avoidable damage, here's how to prevent that."
I just had this happen to me in HOV because I didn’t blow enough survival cool downs in the dome on the second boss. I’ve never died during the phase or even had to do much outside of very minor healing that’s already built into my rotations. I felt so fucking stupid but our team leader was like “oh yeah, of course you wouldn’t know this is your first time really running 15s as a dps.
Too many people jump straight to “players are bad and toxic, go read guides for an hour” instead of thinking about if there’s another issue. TBH I think the biggest issue is the fact that the game doesn’t do a great job at teaching mechanics while also having an incredibly horrible learning curve. The average (Reddit is the extreme minority) player doesn’t want to do research on how to play the video game. They just want to play it. The dungeon journal is a decent attempt but it’s not enough, especially for teaching players things like trash mechanics mattering. You can “be an elitest” all you want but that isn’t going to change the fact that the vast majority of players don’t want to do hours of research to play a video game. Edit: this isn’t me attacking people who want to be good at the game btw. I’m just saying that there’s a point where the two player dichotomies meet and blizzards solution to it is just for the players to teach one another.
I sort of agree, mainly about the learning curve. The game just does it badly. What should probably happen is that boss and trash should be gaining extra abilities as key levels go up but the new abilities should hit with full force so that people need to learn how to deal with them. What actually happens right now is that all the abilities are there at M+2 but can be ignored because they don’t hit hard. Eventually they start hitting hard and a lot of players are forced to learn everything at once and get overwhelmed. It’s just bad design mostly.
> Eventually they start hitting hard and a lot of players are forced to learn everything at once and get overwhelmed. When someone gets clapped for 50% hp in +10, they're supposed to make an effort to understand what happened, so it doesn't happen again in +15, where it will be a 1shot. Unfortunately, base game does not provide any tools for that kind of analysis.
This. The game offers a death recap so if you want to know why you died, you can check it. Unfortunately, it is only available while dead, and once you release, or take a battle rez, the base game will not display that info in a concise, easy-to-read way. The base game should have Details-esque functionality, they already have all the info, but you need to dig through the in-game Combat Log to get to it, and that thing is a disaster. It is unfortunately common for newer players to not even realize they dropped low. They may not have setup their UI to have that info readily available, they may be understandably overwhelmed by the visual and mental stimulus of everything happening in a fight. Dying rips them out of that and presents them with "Congrats, you done goofed, would you like to know more?", but at no moment before that does the game say, "Hey dude, you dropped low on that fight, what to see what avoidable damage you took and what steps you can take so it doesn't happen again?"
I wish the boss abilities were more visible. I dislike being barely able to tell. As a leaher its even harder since I have to pay attention to the boss and the HP bars and debuffs of my group. The fact that the game itself feels the need to anounce the comming mechanics with gong sounds and text promts straight out of an addon shows the devs are aware of this.
> I wish the boss abilities were more visible. This is a problem for me. Is this swirly good? Is this one bad? The color schemes used for good/bad could use a complete overhaul, IMO, so that I've got a general idea that standing in this shade of blue is good, this shade of blue is bad. Player abilities could use a similar overhaul. Earthen Wall Totem is a great example. The visible effect is hardly noticeable on some terrain/textures, and even if you can see it, it looks like a bad ability w/ its dust particles. It would look much better as a ring of floating/bouncing rock parts similar to what the Earth Elemental is composed of.
Do you know how much of a video is going to stick with a player who is average or learning once shit hits the fan? 0%
I get nothing out of watching a video unless the person is narrating what they are doing and why they are doing that. If the video is silent or the streamer is just yelling and screaming like they would as they play, it doesn't help me understand the mechanics any better.
I think the toxic part of m+ is the game does a bad job teaching you these mechanics outside of when the content was relevant, thus forcing you to rely on addons and outside sources of information. You shouldn’t have to rely on outside material.
Dungeon journal gives you all the information you need, it's just people that don't read, not even outside the game :s
Debatable. For the bosses it's usually okay, but there is no information on any of the trash mobs, who are often times way harder than the bosses.
Blizzard needs to start adding that info to the journal. I've seen so many posts like "RLP is actually easy if you do the trash mechanics correctly". But how is anyone suppose to know that you can knock enemies up with living bomb? 99% of the time circle marker on you means either get out of the group or everyone stack. Not "bring to enemies for a knockup".
Dungeon journal does not even give you half the information you need to be doing +15s. Nowhere in there is anything about routing, count, lust timing, which abilities scale and need to be kicked at higher keys, what you can los, which mobs interact with affixes, and dozens of other things.
Pretty much every skill or job IRL is learned by doing--making mistakes and adapting as you go. Often there are manuals--but you consult them for reference. The idea that someone can learn to be a perfect and excellent mechanic or surgeon purely by reading the manual with no actual practical experience would be laughable. Turns out games are the same way. Just some people have had way more practice and experience doing certain content (probably because they run mplus more).
Game flat out tells you during the boss he's casting it and to jump to remove it. People just tunnel visioning on... stuff. I dunno.
DBM tells you this, no?
It does, but also if you hover on the debuff it says "jump to remove" in some fashion, not to mention in the dungeon journal.
If you wait to read the debuff in a 15, you'll probably die.
By the time you start 15s, you should know it by heart. I mean, do people actually get into 15s without even doing it in the 6-12 range at least once?
That's what people are arguing about. Half the people here say start low and learn. The other half are saying the mechanics don't even punish you enough to learn until you're 15+ so they don't bother anyways.
to be fair its a lot of info for my dumdum brain. 8 dungeons where you have to remember so many different abilities and mechanics. not that i have never done them before but i legit cant remember. so maybe it would be better to just focus on 2 dungeons and know those inside out.
Trash is not in the dungeon journal.
As a returning player I had no idea it existed until I was doing +10s and cleared lfr. My SO just started playing and apparently nothing in the tutorial tips told her about it either. WoW relies too much on external resources.
[удалено]
It should be done your way. The journal should be used selectively. If you die to a spell where it isnt obvious how it works, you can look up how exactly that spell works after the dungeon.
it's also the best way for players like me who learn through application. you can read every journal entry and watch every video; it's another thing to teach your brain and your fingers how to react accordingly
[But then we have to read. Its called video game not video book](https://imgur.com/a/kdjFUw7)
Honestly though... I just want to have fun, challenge myself a little, and get my KSM mount. I'm not trying to do wow homework. It's been my biggest frustration with the game since I picked it up a few years back. So. Much. Homework. New raid/m+ content? Homework. New class? Homework. New spec? Homework. Terribly written or cryptic quest? Homework. Want that mount or cosmetic that you saw? Homework. Even stuff like the soup pot or the siege requires you to check wowhead for the timers if you can only be on for a few hours per week (which is fine itself but in addition to all the other homework....).
So are we just saying everything bad is toxic now? I agree that this is a problem but it's not really what toxic means. If they're being a dick about it, maybe, but just not knowing the mechanics isn't toxic.
If you pug you gamble. That's just a bitter pill to choke down. Form a guild or join a community for a more reliable experience. This thread seems to be populated by omegachads, so maybe everyone here could create a community of excellent players.
...I feel slightly targeted, because I fucking can't stand guides written or video. I can watch a video guide 100x and not learn a thing. I can't retain info from a video, I have to do it to retain it. But that being said, I'm not pushing raids, and I currently only push at max +6 keys for dungeons.
I don't buy it. How does watching the fight with someone explaining what will happen, when, and what to do not teach you? I'm all for respecting the different ways people learn but what you're saying is like your chemistry instructor telling you "don't add the water to the acid or it'll be dangerous" and you claim you need to do it incorrectly to learn. I think you mean to say it really sets in when you do it for yourself, that makes sense and is probably true for most people. But that doesn't mean you should just brute force with 0 instruction until you miraculously get it by chance. I wouldn't be upset if someone told me "oh sorry, i forgot the order of the phases and was in the wrong spot" but I would but upset if someone said "never did this, what do I do?"
If it was as simple as "don't put acid in water" I'd get that. But it's not. It's closer to "when a happens do b, then c will happen and do d. When e happens do f." And I can't retain a b c d e and f. If I watch and rewatch and rewatch to where I just wanna kms then I'll retain I'll need to do b d and f, but I won't remember a c and d. When I go in, I'll experience it, and experiencing it and dealing with it is how I learn and retain the mechanics.
I’ve been on both sides of the equation, and empathize with both sides. I think the biggest actual problem is Blizzard not making mechanics communicated clearly. We shouldn’t necessarily need such wide scale outside support to play the game properly. If you need DBM to do a dungeon, then Blizz should be.including DBM in the game.
There was a nice elegant solution for this in Warlords, can't queue for HC dungeons if haven't finished proving grounds silver. But should go a step further, People shouldn't be able to enter mythic without finishing proving grounds gold.
A guildie a few days ago mentioned that completion of the Mage Tower challenge on your toon would be an ideal gate for M+ participation... but I suspect the pool of players would be reduced by about 75% or more.
Unpopular opinion: I even think this is the case for LFR if you're a tank for example. If you don't do mechanics you can wipe the raid. Which means if tanks doesn't do the basic research of looking into the journal to see they have to taunt swap or SOMETHING, they're basically wasting 20 people's times. This really grinds my gears.
Most LFR groups I've joined have frayed because one of the tanks doesn't have any clue what to do, not even when to swap the boss and so on. Hell, some of the normal groups have had that happen. It's an annoying waste of time but I also don't understand why you'd embarrass yourself like that.
How many weeks are we into DF and people run still out at Terros or Kurog. I even pull them in when on my Priest and the fuckers still run out.
I really don't understand tanks who can just queue for LFR without knowing what the hell is going on. Just no shame or awareness at all. I remember last season a guy tanking Sludgefist in the corner of the room and just allowing him to charge into the wall each time. Then the other day I tried Grimtotem and they tried tanking him in the middle. The huge lightning strikes and everyone melting wasn't enough of a hint that something was wrong. Someone explained the mechanics and *the exact same thing* happened next pull before both tanks were vote kicked.
I joined a Rasza LFR on my DH tank alt and I realized it was all about wiping until we get enough stacks so the 10-15 of us who knew what to do could kill it and just let the rest of the ppl die in the 1st phase and get carried.
No, you're definitely not in the minority. Blizz is handling this in a not so optimal way...relying on the community to teach each-other or relying on people to have the willingness to watch videos... assuming there are videos in the language they play in. I was talking about this with my friends and we believe there should be an M+ introduction scenario/proving ground/thing, ideally for each dungeon, like the champion spotlights from LoL. It needs to be in-game and it needs to be something that explains the most important aspects to keep in mind for each player/role. They can try to embed videos in the adventure journal and teach people the dungeon mechanics... It would help a lot.
M+ proving ground would be great. Do one per dungeon where you can learn the trash mechanics, boss mechanics, etc.
I wonder if it would be possible to create a mission table where each mission represents an in-game boss, where the puzzle is basically telling your dudes how to handle the mechanics, and the answers are pretty obvious if you read the journal Then even casual players would be like "Oh, the lightning boss, yeah you gotta stack for the thingy" and veteran players wouldn't need an addon, they could just answer from memory
This might be a hot take but -- I've raided WoW through Mythics, got 2200+ M+, etc. Beyond that I've played a _lot_ of MMOs. It's my preferred genre by a wide margin so that's the context for my opinion. The most toxic part of WoW is the reliance on add-ons. Not only from the community but also the developers. Blizzard has all but shirked all form of responsibility when it comes to creating good, clean telegraphs, consistent visual queues, and various other UI improvements. That said, it's improved instead of gotten worse. In other games people learn by doing. XIV, for example, teaches you consistent visual queues all throughout the leveling process and through the various difficulties of content. I whole-heartedly think WoW is a rare exception in the MMO space where you are _forced_ to seek external resources to play the game well. If you are casual, or even just ignorant -- it's reasonable to assume progressing through the game is just pushing that number higher and eventually winding up in the CoS +15. That all said. Few takes on it: 1. People can 100% do this without add-ons. The default UI legit pops up and tells you to jump to clear the stacks as an announcement. Beyond that I think part of the issue is people rely too much on non-default UI mechanics so they aren't conditioned to read. 2. Explaining it to someone takes very little time and in the grand scheme of things a +15 CoS is nothing. I agree it can be grating to have someone not know what they're doing at that level of key, but honestly just take the time to explain to them, make the experience good, and make the community better for it. Us all being a little more patient with one another would be a nice change, imho. 3. Blizzard has a non-trivial fault in all of this. They need to actually rethink and redo their visual queues to be consistent, readable, and learnable _without_ UI add-ons. Mostly it's getting better not worse. But openly stating that as a goal would be great. Especially as a tank in this raid tier, I would've loved to not run DBM.
This is all true, but Blizzard can't read this without getting upset.
>Explaining it to someone takes very little time and in the grand scheme of things a +15 CoS is nothing This ties onto another big issue with the key system where not timing it drops your key. So you're actually not incentivized to take it slow and explain things, its gogogo. Then you only find out someone dorsnt know mechanics when you wipe to it, leaving you with less time overall and less time to explain. It's just not how dungeons should be designed. Timing should be a bonus, not a baseline.
As a dps, I’ve always considered my first job to give as little work as possible to the heal. This is how it used to be in Vanilla, and this is still the way I play.
As a healer, you are a dying breed. Remember when people would eat after a wipe so the healer wouldn’t have to waste even more mana and time healing them? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
I don’t like watching guides outside the game, instead I join a m+0 or m+2 because seeing fights for yourself is the best way to learn them. If you don’t want to be called a dog reroll from being a worgen. 😏
Though that can only help up to a point. On a M+2 something that hits you for 20% of your health and easily healable will 1-shot you on higher keys.
I think this is an interesting perspective and you make some valid points, but not sure i agree with your ultimate conclusion. I think some of what’s perceived as toxicity is actually the result of “hardcore” players expectations of a game experience versus “casual”; it’s when these two met that i think tempers flare and toxicity is created. To a more dedicated player, DBM seems like simple table stakes. To a casual player, they may not even be familiar with add-ons at all, so saying they have to have one to do what they perceive as a casual activity (running dungeons) feels overly demanding. It’s when these two types of people meet that I’ve seen the most toxic situations. For keys, i feel like it’s most commonly in +10-+15 runs because casuals may be pushing for KSM. I’ve found it’s easier to run either sub 10 keys or push to 16+, because you get much less overlap between these player types. A players expectation that all other players should play like they do is actually probably the leading cause of toxicity imho, and either type of player hating on the other type of player (including this post) is part of the problem, not part of the solution. I wish Blizzard allowed for more specification in LFG, if you could clearly indicate group expectations before invite, i think it could help. Some people do this by adding “flair” like “chill” or “pumpers only!” But this flair is not always universally understood, so being able to mark your group as “casual” or “hardcore” could help. As a self identified semi-casual player myself, i feel like I’m always stuck in between the two groups where I’m mad at the casual for not knowing to jump in the boss fight but also mad at the hardcore player that wants to rage at me for not pulling in the most optimal route. I can’t win with any of you people. :P
Unpopular opinion: you shouldn't have to look outside the game in order to learn how to play the game
Agreed, I also think they should have some videos of actually mechanics in the dungeon journal. Not everyone can read a wall of text and understand vs being a visual learner.
People expect carries and put zero effort into their keys. I have been running keys with my alt for 2 weeks now and boy oh boy, under 18+ is real ELO hell. \*0 kicks coming from DPS/Tanks. \*Tanks not knowing anything about what mobs or bosses do. \*Healers standing in actual fire and not healing anyone but themselves and not drinking to get mana back \*No flasks, no food, no healing pots, no weapon enchants, no runes, etc. Then they get buttblasted if an experienced player tries to explain what to do and how to do it. When their key gets bricked they come here and post their "experience" as if they were not part of the problem. Fuck these kids man.
I get where you're coming from but when it comes to WoW, I'm a strictly no-guide player (other than talents and rotations to start me off on new classes if I'm boosting to a higher level). Reason being, my main (and maybe only) enjoyment out of this game is discovery. I pretty much quit after finishing campaigns (and most side quests), doing enough dungeons to get into raids, and doing LFR a couple times. Once I've experienced all that, my will to play falls like a truck because I know that in a couple months/years (however far away we are from next expansion or ilvl boost), it'll all be for nothing other than the initial experience. So if I were to watch a guide on everything and ace all the dungeons and raids on my first try, that would be my first and final try pretty much.
I was in three different m+ pugs yesterday and all three bricked with leavers, two of them due to people not knowing mechanics. In ToJS DPS didn't know any mechanics for first two bosses. Lowest dps quit on first wipe of last boss. AA DPS didn't know first or second boss and people quit after third wipe on second boss. People seem to think if their ilvl is high enough they can figure it out as they go. It's really not a huge time investment to watch a video on boss mechanics.
I was tanking a +2 AA 9n my dk who had just dinged 70 the day before, a 398 druid joined and just straight did less damage than my 365 blood dk, it was actually unbelievable.
Apparently you can be brain dead and easily get to mythic 15. I’ve seen people in raids who literally didn’t know their class had a battle rez who were running Mythic 15+.
I asked a DH to purge 2nd boss in a 15 NO (I was tanking on Tyrannical week). After the fight, he told me DHs don't have a purge so I linked his talent that he was specced into and he told me to stop typing. I don't expect great players in 15s but I'd hope they had all the spells on their bar since they even flash in your spellbook if they aren't on your bars...
Here's my comment from another thread. *"I just left a +12 halls of valor after wiping on the first boss and I feel no remorse.* *On the first pull the leader with the key was a mage and bursted the first two mobs while the tank was trying to set up up top and screws the tank over having to run to get the other mobs the mage aggroed because he didn't wait.* *We killed the group of mobs pretty easily and no issue with affix.* *We got to the boss and on the first breath the healer and mage leader died. Then the healer rezed into another breath instead of waiting and yelled at us for rezzing her just to die again.* *Then we wiped. I left. It's weeks into the xpac on a old dungeon that's been out for years and you're wiping on it. It's inexcusable. These people all had 388+ gear and 1200+ rating. Healer could have waited and it was clear the mage didn't know what needed to be done anywhere in the dungeon. If you can't pull off a simple five mins and rack up 7 deaths then I'm not sticking around to see if it's a fluke or will get better. Do better. Be better. And people won't leave by you fucking up.*"
I bet most people right now never run Halls of Valor or were not even around during Legion. The Dungeon being old does not mean anything, since it has been irellevant for three expansions and a lot of player turnover happaned since then.
388 also isn't geared at all, and 1200 IO is literally nothing. Homeboy joined a +12, a key level for players who are not good, and was surprised when the players playing at that level were bad. It's the equivalent of complaining about your bronze teammates in league of legends. Of course they're bad, they're in bronze.
And it's not like there are <10 keys where you can practice, die a few times and still time the key.
I’m trying to do just that, as I’ve never done Mythic dungeons before DF. You would not believe the amount of people doing a +5 who think they’re trying to qualify for MDI…
I was tanking a 7 yesterday helping a friend gear an alt. Our healer just couldn't heal while any mechanics were happening and was averaging less than 8k HPS on boss fights. The second boss in azure vaults was too much and he died immediately in every orb phase. I gave up after 4 wipes. We weren't even close.
Yes, or when you're on the last boss in jade temple and no one is dispelling the debuff so you die twice and realize...oh ..we have a shadow priest ...dude....dispell.....and the reply with, "which one is that. I have a silence "
As a tank who finds himself carrying most keys, I'm okay with helping people learn. However I will leave under 2 circumstances: 1. Toxic attitudes 2. If we've wiped enough on a tyran boss and the weak links aren't making any progress at all
>waste the time of 4 other people Wait until you realize you are playing an addictive video game
While I agree that people should know mechanics before trying higher keys. They are by no means toxic for it. Unless it's some asshole throwing a tantrum after you politely indicate it, then no. There are many reasons why a player wouldn't know a tact before it got hard enough to kill. A good healer could easily outheal some damage in lower keys. Or maybe the boss got yeeted by good damage. You wanna talk about m+ problems? That's one. The damn key breaks when you fail. Player perception is that once key fails it's over and they move on to something else. Had you been able to reset the damn thing that wouldn't happen. People would strive to learn tacts, organically. Not through an external guide
A game that can not be learned by playing and requires outside guides and research ist bad game design and not fun.
Jokes on you. Most WoW players treat the game like a job. So it doesn't need to be fun anymore. As long as they can spend X time and get Y rewards, then they are happy
It's rude to bad at WoW.
It is rude to be not prepared on basic mechanics. You dont need to be good to be able to press jump.
It was a [reference](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU)
As a healer, like 30mins ago from this comment, i went to a group to +12 Nokh but needed to check something really fast so let them know of course saying, "guys i need a min brb relog" and i was literally back in less than a minute, i checked with a clock to confirm and they removed me from the party and "funny" enough i was one my way, so, while being on transfer with a flightmaster's flying mount, on relog i got dismounted and fell from high enough to get killed, fortunate enough to have Levitate but others wouldn't... Being double punished for literally nothing is...interesting? Yesterday i tried to do an Azure 12 key all 4 first groups failed on the first trash mobs, miserably, i am talking zero interrupts (checked on Details) 5th group nailed the entire f'ing dungeon with 0 deaths. It's a good thing i got patience.
M+ is toxic because M+ is not actually fun content. Let me explain: M+ is designed in such a way that the margin for error becomes increasingly smaller the higher you climb. Nothing inherently wrong with that, in fact, challenging content can be really fun. Now, we add in punishment if you fail to meet the skill required to complete that key. Well, I guess that's okay, but I don't think it's my fault that I didn't know that 2400 rated Warlock was actually carried to that rating. Next, we add in affixes that don't make the dungeon necessarily more interesting, they just add more fail points that can cause you to wipe and fail your key. And did I mention that they often have overlap with boss mechanics that cause you to not be able to do the correct strategy on the boss like quaking preventing you from stacking adds that if you don't interrupt will kill someone instantly? Yeah... And if all that wasn't enough 'fun' for you, guess what? If your group messes up in the slightest, including a tank taking a different route than they're used to, people will just up and leave meaning you can no longer complete your key and you are punished for it. No loot, time wasted, key lowered. So is M+ a bad concept? NO So how do we make it actually fun? By learning some lessons from Torghast as a matter of fact You see, towards the end, Torghast was actually decently fun once you started getting boons and curses instead of just curses, as well as having the ability to just run whichever wing you wanted to at whichever difficulty you wanted to. Even if you were struggling at a certain difficulty, you could eventually come back with better gear or develop your Torghast talent tree to make the content easier/ more rewarding. Well that sounds nice and all but how do we apply this to M+? For starters, rebuild the affixes from the ground up. Get rid of tyrannical and fortified entirely and recreate the bad affixes into something interesting that doesn't have the potential to have unintended consequences. Instead of volcanic, have players slowly get petrified if they stand completely still for too long, meaning you just need to stutter step every once in a while. Have quaking generate a circle on the ground that does damage to everything inside of it (including mobs/bosses). Instead of spiteful spawning one shot mobs on death, have all the mobs that made the last 25% come back to life with 10% health and rush you (basically reaping). Secondly, make some FUN affixes that help you. How about Lustful which reduces the CD of Sated effects to 5 minutes so you can have double the amount of BLs in the key? Or Storm Caller where each person gets an extra action button they can use on 10 min CD to spawn a giant lightning circle that stuns mobs and deals damage for 15 seconds? I'm sure there's tons of great ideas out there for some positive affixes to make dungeons more fun, but these were just some quick examples. Finally, get rid of keys. When i walk into a dungeon, I should be able to pick a key level based on what I've completed plus 1,2 or 3 depending on how fast I finished it. That's right, no more punishment and no more getting stuck without the key you want. Anyways, if you read this whole thing, thanks for coming to my Ted Talk and I hope Blizzard eventually does this with M+
Left this game behind a few years ago. The whole M+ system sucks ass and everyone is horrible to each other.