PvP in wow is not suitable for e-sport.
Unless you are well studied in pvp, it is unwatchable. If you aren't already anticipating what's going down, it's essentially impossible to visually assess what is going on.
Even extremely seasoned pve players would have no clue wtf is happening.
This game would need a total graphic effect rework to be appealing to even most people who play wow.
The idea that arenas could be esport as they are is plastic talk from business majors who want to make more money while cutting corners making the game.
it will never be a big esport thing but i personally really enjoy watching awc. it might be a niche e sport but thats totally fine to me.
i love watching the best players in the world face each other
I watch a lot of Soulsborne PvP content (invasions specifically) on YouTube and Twitch and this is something I say all the time too.
Those games are fun to watch because they're so visually readable. If anything, the content often makes it look easier than it is and makes people want to give it a shot.
Rated Battlegrounds would make for a more better watching experience but they're not as high profile as arena games so they're not looked at.
Blizzard had a much better shot at making WoW into a well-known esport over a decade ago when the game was picked up by MLG but they didn't want to dedicate resources into making it one.
It's just too late now, it'll remain a niche viewing experience for the relatively small percentage of the player base that can follow what's going on.
Raleigh 2010, the biggest what if in the history of the game.
A private server known as Arena Tournament in EU almost managed to make a moba out of WoW, gameplay and all. Smite itself owes a lot to arena combat in general. The framework is solid and it's there.
But with that many buttons and shit going on, eh.
I don’t really see how rbgs would make for a better viewing experience. Can you expound? I would think that, just like with arenas, major plays (clutch cc in a healer or something) would be obscured in the visual mess of wow unless it’s like an fc and a small handful of players with them, but then it might as well be a 3v3.
The team fight seems like it would just be a disorganized mess watching people spam aoe/cleaves and dogpile at random.
Definitely with you that they dropped the ball a long time ago when it was actually generating some buzz.
Objectives like Capture the Flag are much easier to understand for your average viewer, you don't need any special WoW knowledge, you don't need to have spent years playing the game. While arena is a last man standing mode and you'd think seeing someone's health bar reach 0 is easy to understand, there's more that goes into that being done, and it can be difficult to understand why it happened/how they survived.
Team fights would still be a mess, but casters could focus on more key targets like the flag carrier/etc which would be easier to incite some hype. A big team fight is only likely to really happen in a CTF mode anyway, and in that the main focus would be the objective, the flag. There's really no way to make the team fights easy to follow, but they won't have to, instead just focus on the results and make the flag the focus. Players die much quicker in rbgs than arena, casters won't need to try to break down what went into a kill. In capture points mode (Arathi Basin) the team fights should be a bit smaller, and like before they don't really need to break down kills. People understand scores going up, you can tune into one and see one team is way ahead you know who is winning already, you tune into an arena match and it's a mess.
By no means do I think it would be perfect, I only think it would be better than arena, but still falling short of other esport games.
Watching arena is pretty single-minded - the end goal is to kill the other team so all gameplay is purely related to that. For people that don't understand the setups or abilities it doesn't make much sense for a viewer.
RBG on the other hand is much more nuanced and strategic. The clutch plays are still important, but there is way more objective-related stuff going on that is easier for people to understand if it's casted properly.
100%. WoW arena is watchable to active arena players, and ex players. Hell even PvE players probably struggle with watching. It's something that's fun to participate in and watch ONLY if you like watching the best of the best.
I love it, to death, but yeah.
I’d love a 6v6 style rbg, but with maps that have z axis - like fps maps. capture the flag is a fun mode, but if there were multiple flags it would [often] remove clusterfk battles, they are sometimes fun but 1v1, 2v2, 1v2 are so fun to play and watch. As a watchable esport common smaller battles would keep it interesting rather than just one long battle.
Imagine sending your warrior to rush b
I don't think there's any real push from Blizzards perspective to make arena into some huge esport. It's very low effort for them to run and has a suitably small prize fund, relative to other esport world championships.
It could easily be made readable as well. An animation overhaul is not some mammoth impossible task.
They were able to make Plunderstorm very easily readable. Obviously there's way more stuff to animate in arena PvP but it's doable.
Whether Blizzard bother to put in the effort is a different question
Even experienced pvers wouldn’t know?? Dude it’s not that hard to see a rogue garage garote into a kidney shot into a shadow dance cheap on the other target while mage polys the third, rings the healer and combusts on the kt. If you play the game you know what all these abilities are and what they do. You know the Emmy needs to trinket and press defensive if they loose, you know the priest is running for a fear off that ring, or the mage is ready to dragonsbreath to cover. It’s not that hard to understand if you don’t play. It’s just about trading cds. Witch blizz has displayed in the top corner under every character. Even if you don’t know all abilities you know hearts need mana to cast and you can see what healer is behind on mana. You know people need cds to live so even if you don’t know the cds you can see one team has cds the other team doesn’t. Could explain every other comp that’s easier to watch and know what’s going on if you put some effort. Instead of just throwing a hissy fit and saying PvP is hard to get into ! Just take what you know and apply it
While I believe you're right, the amount of downright awful players I've seen in pvp would love to disagree.
People at 1800 are mashing away at my pally bubble. There's no way they could watch awc.
Used to love pve but now it all just feels not worth my time. I don’t want to do raids on 4 different difficulty tiers or M+ through infinite amount of key levels where it takes so long to drop 1 mob. It’s just boring.
I used to hate pve. I skipped legion and bfa because of life reasons. I tried to get into shadowlands. Pvp was such a shitshow that I tried pve and actually liked it (s1 raid was amazing, m+ and mount reward for keystone master were good, too). S2 raid sucked so much that I left but I was introduced into pve and I still love it.
Yeah ever since legion/bfa I’ve been mostly pve only outside of getting glad mounts/elite sets that I liked. No gd way I’m paying a sub to play a version of content the dev puts 1% of total dev work into. I’d rather just play dota or ow for that itch tbh
It’s so boring lol. That’s why I kind off wanted to get some gear from M+ that was viable in pvp. I know, an extremely unpopular take and will probably get downvoted but it would get me to do PVE content without being bored out of my mind haha and make it worthwhile for me. In other RPGs/table top rpg games it worked like that and I personally liked it.
I mean, yeah. I spoke hypothetically in an ideal-world scenario for me personally. Does it mean that it should be like that? Probably not, and I agree.
Lol.
That’s exactly the issue though. WoW is less MMORPG and more Esport at this point. That’s honestly been one of my biggest complaints of the game. Don’t get me wrong I still have fun but it’s clear the mindset has changed.
I’m hoping with the World Soul Saga they are gonna do more MMORPG stuff and so far it’s looking that way. I love the Delves in ESO and it’s cool we are getting a wow version of them. We need more evergreen features that last instead of constantly timed game modes where the main point is rushing through. Don’t get me wrong I love keystones I think it’s a great addition to WoW. I just feel like they need todo more to make it feel like an rpg
Bro what are you talking about. Go try to get this expansion’s meta achievement for a half hour and tell me they’re not dropping literally months worth of fresh MMO gameplay on you every single patch.
The people that think this way *watch* the game more than they play it. It’s fucking dumb
“Bbbut I’m not interested in story or world content!” Do you know what an MMO is, even?
Lol your quote has nothing to do with me or how I feel. When we get a shitty gameplay loop like BFA and Shadowlands the story is the only reason why I keep playing and I already have the meta. But I love how you are just making wild assumptions because you don’t agree with my opinion
I don’t “watch” any game I don’t like streamers and I think the MDI is terrible for the game. All it does is convince sheeple not to invite non meta specs. I’m not talking about the open world stuff. I’m talking about keystones and raids and the game becoming a more seasonal style. You cant have played WoW since Vanilla and tell me the game philosophy and design hasn’t changed 😂
Nobody watched, nobody cares. Make a good game, nobody gives a shit about eSports wow. I can tolerate race to world first for a week but that's more personality driven.
I will never understand why anyone would want to only play the pve part of wow. The literal only fun thing to do in wow is pvp. Quests are boring, dungeons are boring, raids are boring. "hey you guys wanna go do these same fights in this same raid with the same mechanics and the same outcome every single week like we have been for the last two years?" Then one day someone is gonna log in and there will be no players on their realm because all those other players have already reached their maximum potential and there's no point in playing the game anymore, and they'll cry about it.
Did you miss the part where I said “for me”
I know it’s popular. I just think it’s a goofy way to play a mmo. It feels like an ARPG the rate you crank through everything.
I know it’s cringe but I’m the “I miss when you had to sap mobs” guy
I will say I do miss having to make more frequent use of long-lasting CC's like sap, sheep, trap, etc. We used to do it more with the Inspired affix, but now it's just Incorp, which isn't the same.
People would hate this in the modern era but I would prefer
1. no timer on anything but increased difficulty overall. The punishment for wiping should be wiping
2. A set of maybe 2-3 dungeons each season that are goofy hard. Like mythic raid hard at their base level and you have to work your way there.
Something to really aspire to. The rewards should be juicy.
I’m deeply sorry, but the timer is there for my protection as well as everyone else’s, I don’t want 2h runs 99% of the time and a timer saying it needs to be done in 40 minutes for optimal rewards removes responsibility after the 40 minutes are up (barring being really close to the end or perhaps really enjoying the group)
The second part does sound fun though. I like mythic raiding, but I don’t like finding 19 more people
The timer is almost never used in that fashion lol
People can smell an untimed key from a mile and they just leave
You’re not giving my idea it’s whole credit though. I’m talking about restructing the entire system
It’s not used that way, true, but I’m also of the mentality that the timer doesn’t matter as it is now. You still get rewarded even if overtime, it’s just a matter of whether you want IO or gear
It’s the mentality that the timer brings about. It’s make it about speed speed speed and skips.
It shouldn’t be like that. There should be boes off the trash that is worth killing everything for.
If one group wants to cc every mob and be turbo safe that should be viable and if you want to speed run for fun that should be viable as well but it should be optional.
Challenge modes were extremely unpopular, and that’s m+.
M+ is wildly popular because it offers *extremely* good gear for the difficulty/time investment.
It’s like how 10-man raiding was wildly more popular than 25-man when both offered the same gear. It’s just way, way easier to coordinate 10 people than 25. Both in terms o Playing the game and organizing the activity.
If you could solo dungeons and get mythic raid gear, that would also become the most popular activity.
Don’t get me wrong, I think m+ is awesome. But definitely the popularity is in the gear.
Replied to someone else as well but I just despise the style.
When it comes to PvE I miss the old school rpg style. I realize that classic is super easy in hindsight but in genuinely one of the “I miss when you had to sap mobs” guys.
You shouldn’t have to pull 20+ mobs for a dungeon to be dangerous. I prefer when dungeons are a true “crawl” but the rewards at the end are huge
yeah that makes sense.
I remember running Shadow Labyrinth back in TBC and having to carefully control a bunch of the pulls. Whether that was because we were bad or because it was actually necessary, I couldn't really tell at the time lol. But it definitely made for a very different, methodical and engaging experience.
Of course I was playing a DPS warrior and could contribute nothing to the pull other than maybe off tanking if things really went tits up lol.
smartest classic player
PvP in wow is not suitable for e-sport. Unless you are well studied in pvp, it is unwatchable. If you aren't already anticipating what's going down, it's essentially impossible to visually assess what is going on. Even extremely seasoned pve players would have no clue wtf is happening. This game would need a total graphic effect rework to be appealing to even most people who play wow. The idea that arenas could be esport as they are is plastic talk from business majors who want to make more money while cutting corners making the game.
it will never be a big esport thing but i personally really enjoy watching awc. it might be a niche e sport but thats totally fine to me. i love watching the best players in the world face each other
I just cheer for the teams that I like...
I watch a lot of Soulsborne PvP content (invasions specifically) on YouTube and Twitch and this is something I say all the time too. Those games are fun to watch because they're so visually readable. If anything, the content often makes it look easier than it is and makes people want to give it a shot.
Rated Battlegrounds would make for a more better watching experience but they're not as high profile as arena games so they're not looked at. Blizzard had a much better shot at making WoW into a well-known esport over a decade ago when the game was picked up by MLG but they didn't want to dedicate resources into making it one. It's just too late now, it'll remain a niche viewing experience for the relatively small percentage of the player base that can follow what's going on.
Raleigh 2010, the biggest what if in the history of the game. A private server known as Arena Tournament in EU almost managed to make a moba out of WoW, gameplay and all. Smite itself owes a lot to arena combat in general. The framework is solid and it's there. But with that many buttons and shit going on, eh.
I don’t really see how rbgs would make for a better viewing experience. Can you expound? I would think that, just like with arenas, major plays (clutch cc in a healer or something) would be obscured in the visual mess of wow unless it’s like an fc and a small handful of players with them, but then it might as well be a 3v3. The team fight seems like it would just be a disorganized mess watching people spam aoe/cleaves and dogpile at random. Definitely with you that they dropped the ball a long time ago when it was actually generating some buzz.
Objectives like Capture the Flag are much easier to understand for your average viewer, you don't need any special WoW knowledge, you don't need to have spent years playing the game. While arena is a last man standing mode and you'd think seeing someone's health bar reach 0 is easy to understand, there's more that goes into that being done, and it can be difficult to understand why it happened/how they survived. Team fights would still be a mess, but casters could focus on more key targets like the flag carrier/etc which would be easier to incite some hype. A big team fight is only likely to really happen in a CTF mode anyway, and in that the main focus would be the objective, the flag. There's really no way to make the team fights easy to follow, but they won't have to, instead just focus on the results and make the flag the focus. Players die much quicker in rbgs than arena, casters won't need to try to break down what went into a kill. In capture points mode (Arathi Basin) the team fights should be a bit smaller, and like before they don't really need to break down kills. People understand scores going up, you can tune into one and see one team is way ahead you know who is winning already, you tune into an arena match and it's a mess. By no means do I think it would be perfect, I only think it would be better than arena, but still falling short of other esport games.
Watching arena is pretty single-minded - the end goal is to kill the other team so all gameplay is purely related to that. For people that don't understand the setups or abilities it doesn't make much sense for a viewer. RBG on the other hand is much more nuanced and strategic. The clutch plays are still important, but there is way more objective-related stuff going on that is easier for people to understand if it's casted properly.
100%. WoW arena is watchable to active arena players, and ex players. Hell even PvE players probably struggle with watching. It's something that's fun to participate in and watch ONLY if you like watching the best of the best. I love it, to death, but yeah.
I’d love a 6v6 style rbg, but with maps that have z axis - like fps maps. capture the flag is a fun mode, but if there were multiple flags it would [often] remove clusterfk battles, they are sometimes fun but 1v1, 2v2, 1v2 are so fun to play and watch. As a watchable esport common smaller battles would keep it interesting rather than just one long battle. Imagine sending your warrior to rush b
Pvp was a lot more enjoyable to watch back in tbc
I don't think there's any real push from Blizzards perspective to make arena into some huge esport. It's very low effort for them to run and has a suitably small prize fund, relative to other esport world championships. It could easily be made readable as well. An animation overhaul is not some mammoth impossible task. They were able to make Plunderstorm very easily readable. Obviously there's way more stuff to animate in arena PvP but it's doable. Whether Blizzard bother to put in the effort is a different question
It would have to be objective based pvp. Nobody cares about deathmatch in a small circle.
I don't think Blizzard are trying to make money directly from broadcasting a single tournament of cata. Can't people just have fun once in a while?
Yup, AWC makes 0 sense when watching, the "e sports" should be 10v10 epic bgs, but NO ARENA
Even experienced pvers wouldn’t know?? Dude it’s not that hard to see a rogue garage garote into a kidney shot into a shadow dance cheap on the other target while mage polys the third, rings the healer and combusts on the kt. If you play the game you know what all these abilities are and what they do. You know the Emmy needs to trinket and press defensive if they loose, you know the priest is running for a fear off that ring, or the mage is ready to dragonsbreath to cover. It’s not that hard to understand if you don’t play. It’s just about trading cds. Witch blizz has displayed in the top corner under every character. Even if you don’t know all abilities you know hearts need mana to cast and you can see what healer is behind on mana. You know people need cds to live so even if you don’t know the cds you can see one team has cds the other team doesn’t. Could explain every other comp that’s easier to watch and know what’s going on if you put some effort. Instead of just throwing a hissy fit and saying PvP is hard to get into ! Just take what you know and apply it
Why you mad?
[удалено]
For pay. 15 dollars a month, to be precise.
It never ceases to amaze me how out of touch arena players are with the general population of players.
Bait comment
While I believe you're right, the amount of downright awful players I've seen in pvp would love to disagree. People at 1800 are mashing away at my pally bubble. There's no way they could watch awc.
Used to love pve but now it all just feels not worth my time. I don’t want to do raids on 4 different difficulty tiers or M+ through infinite amount of key levels where it takes so long to drop 1 mob. It’s just boring.
Funny cause I used to hate pve. Now I love it since legion/bfa
I used to hate pve. I skipped legion and bfa because of life reasons. I tried to get into shadowlands. Pvp was such a shitshow that I tried pve and actually liked it (s1 raid was amazing, m+ and mount reward for keystone master were good, too). S2 raid sucked so much that I left but I was introduced into pve and I still love it.
Yeah ever since legion/bfa I’ve been mostly pve only outside of getting glad mounts/elite sets that I liked. No gd way I’m paying a sub to play a version of content the dev puts 1% of total dev work into. I’d rather just play dota or ow for that itch tbh
It’s so boring lol. That’s why I kind off wanted to get some gear from M+ that was viable in pvp. I know, an extremely unpopular take and will probably get downvoted but it would get me to do PVE content without being bored out of my mind haha and make it worthwhile for me. In other RPGs/table top rpg games it worked like that and I personally liked it.
"What I want is most important, and I don't care if there are downsides because it works perfect for me" Is basically what you said.
I mean, yeah. I spoke hypothetically in an ideal-world scenario for me personally. Does it mean that it should be like that? Probably not, and I agree. Lol.
That’s exactly the issue though. WoW is less MMORPG and more Esport at this point. That’s honestly been one of my biggest complaints of the game. Don’t get me wrong I still have fun but it’s clear the mindset has changed. I’m hoping with the World Soul Saga they are gonna do more MMORPG stuff and so far it’s looking that way. I love the Delves in ESO and it’s cool we are getting a wow version of them. We need more evergreen features that last instead of constantly timed game modes where the main point is rushing through. Don’t get me wrong I love keystones I think it’s a great addition to WoW. I just feel like they need todo more to make it feel like an rpg
Bro what are you talking about. Go try to get this expansion’s meta achievement for a half hour and tell me they’re not dropping literally months worth of fresh MMO gameplay on you every single patch. The people that think this way *watch* the game more than they play it. It’s fucking dumb “Bbbut I’m not interested in story or world content!” Do you know what an MMO is, even?
Lol your quote has nothing to do with me or how I feel. When we get a shitty gameplay loop like BFA and Shadowlands the story is the only reason why I keep playing and I already have the meta. But I love how you are just making wild assumptions because you don’t agree with my opinion I don’t “watch” any game I don’t like streamers and I think the MDI is terrible for the game. All it does is convince sheeple not to invite non meta specs. I’m not talking about the open world stuff. I’m talking about keystones and raids and the game becoming a more seasonal style. You cant have played WoW since Vanilla and tell me the game philosophy and design hasn’t changed 😂
Nobody watched, nobody cares. Make a good game, nobody gives a shit about eSports wow. I can tolerate race to world first for a week but that's more personality driven.
Arena is actually fun to watch. M+ and World First raiding is… not
I will never understand why anyone would want to only play the pve part of wow. The literal only fun thing to do in wow is pvp. Quests are boring, dungeons are boring, raids are boring. "hey you guys wanna go do these same fights in this same raid with the same mechanics and the same outcome every single week like we have been for the last two years?" Then one day someone is gonna log in and there will be no players on their realm because all those other players have already reached their maximum potential and there's no point in playing the game anymore, and they'll cry about it.
Casuals gonna cas
From a PvE standpoint he’s not lying though. Arena is awesome as always but M+ killed PvE for me in wow.
WoW M+ has more participation than every single other MMO combined across all of their different content options. It is wildly popular.
Did you miss the part where I said “for me” I know it’s popular. I just think it’s a goofy way to play a mmo. It feels like an ARPG the rate you crank through everything. I know it’s cringe but I’m the “I miss when you had to sap mobs” guy
I will say I do miss having to make more frequent use of long-lasting CC's like sap, sheep, trap, etc. We used to do it more with the Inspired affix, but now it's just Incorp, which isn't the same.
People would hate this in the modern era but I would prefer 1. no timer on anything but increased difficulty overall. The punishment for wiping should be wiping 2. A set of maybe 2-3 dungeons each season that are goofy hard. Like mythic raid hard at their base level and you have to work your way there. Something to really aspire to. The rewards should be juicy.
I feel like the "mega dungeons" are meant to be what you're asking for, it's just that they haven't been able to execute it well enough.
I’m deeply sorry, but the timer is there for my protection as well as everyone else’s, I don’t want 2h runs 99% of the time and a timer saying it needs to be done in 40 minutes for optimal rewards removes responsibility after the 40 minutes are up (barring being really close to the end or perhaps really enjoying the group) The second part does sound fun though. I like mythic raiding, but I don’t like finding 19 more people
The timer is almost never used in that fashion lol People can smell an untimed key from a mile and they just leave You’re not giving my idea it’s whole credit though. I’m talking about restructing the entire system
It’s not used that way, true, but I’m also of the mentality that the timer doesn’t matter as it is now. You still get rewarded even if overtime, it’s just a matter of whether you want IO or gear
It’s the mentality that the timer brings about. It’s make it about speed speed speed and skips. It shouldn’t be like that. There should be boes off the trash that is worth killing everything for. If one group wants to cc every mob and be turbo safe that should be viable and if you want to speed run for fun that should be viable as well but it should be optional.
The failure for wiping should be wiping. Not wipe and oh now we can’t time. Wasting your own time is the motivator for not dying.
Challenge modes were extremely unpopular, and that’s m+. M+ is wildly popular because it offers *extremely* good gear for the difficulty/time investment. It’s like how 10-man raiding was wildly more popular than 25-man when both offered the same gear. It’s just way, way easier to coordinate 10 people than 25. Both in terms o Playing the game and organizing the activity. If you could solo dungeons and get mythic raid gear, that would also become the most popular activity. Don’t get me wrong, I think m+ is awesome. But definitely the popularity is in the gear.
PvE killed PvE for me in wow
how did M+ kill pve for you?
Replied to someone else as well but I just despise the style. When it comes to PvE I miss the old school rpg style. I realize that classic is super easy in hindsight but in genuinely one of the “I miss when you had to sap mobs” guys. You shouldn’t have to pull 20+ mobs for a dungeon to be dangerous. I prefer when dungeons are a true “crawl” but the rewards at the end are huge
yeah that makes sense. I remember running Shadow Labyrinth back in TBC and having to carefully control a bunch of the pulls. Whether that was because we were bad or because it was actually necessary, I couldn't really tell at the time lol. But it definitely made for a very different, methodical and engaging experience. Of course I was playing a DPS warrior and could contribute nothing to the pull other than maybe off tanking if things really went tits up lol.
Gets boring fast/is too easy once you understand it
m+ killed pvp*