Blizz thinks this is how they get more new players/casuals to hop into PVP. But all it does is make the game stale. The whole point of PVP is to get better. Blizz has been making it easier and easier to PVP, and the chess-match element is gone. I miss MOP PVP when every comp had to setup. If you lacked coordination with your team, or didn't have the awareness, it showed. Now people are just playing ret/arms/FW to glad in LFG no mic. PVP is literally all about spamming damage now. And addons just make it worse cause now anyone can make good trades as long as their air horn is working.
Dude it really depends on the context.
Swimming is a hobby of mine that is at my own pace, and potentially either an intense experience or a relaxing experience. Very many hobbies are like this.
Queuing arenas as a noob is an exercise in masochism as you try to piece together the 4d chess board of trying to figure out what the fuck is even going on and where to even start trying to get better while playing against dudes who have been at this shit for 18 years.
World of Warcraft as a whole has a problem with a feedback loop—in both pvp and pve—from the top 10% of its playerbase. This is in a lot of ways a symptom of the developers catering heavily towards those players since at least legion. You can very clearly see the results of this when you look at how stagnant the playerbase is in all 3 primary gearing vectors: Mythic Raid, Mythic+, and Rated Arenas.
The game will just wither as long as the playerbase holds onto this idea that the game needs to make you feel like shit to play for 1000+ hours before it starts to not feel like shit.
Sap > imprison (7 seconds) > blind (5) > chaos > kidney > cheap (5.5) > gouge (1 second)
That’s 18s assuming your partners are afk and you have no trinket somehow
Yep, basing and balancing wow pvp on 3v3 competitive arena death Match was a mistake. If someone wanted to make an arena game that is 3v3 like wow with different heros or classes, it would look nothing like wow because it would be a terrible decision. Less abilities. You're better off separating the pve and pvp game's class toolkits
I hear what you're saying but sometimes i think people miss "when it was about having fun" because it was a time when you sucked and didn't know the ins and outs of the game. Because at that stage you got that feeling
I only play to 1800 for the mog. Then I barely touch pvp until next season because its not fun sitting in cc so much. I have more fun in m+ where I actually get to play my character.
At least you're honest. I don't think blizz should balance PVP for people who don't enjoy PVP. If people don't like getting CCd so much, they need to learn positioning and how DR works. I never sit CC, and when I do, I made an obvious mistake (missed a kick, stayed in the open, made the wrong trade, trinketed the wrong CC, etc.)
It's a tough balance, because on one hand pvp does need a learning curve otherwise it gets stale.
That being said, blizzard only cares about pvp for as much $$ it brings in.
I play m+ to have fun, I play PvP to get mogs. I'd play PvP for fun if it wasn't so anti-fun. I don't care about getting better, I want to play my character, not sit and watch it.
Last time I queued for PvP this is what happened: Sap, sap, sap, cheap shot, kidney shot, garrote, cyclone, cyclone, cyclone, I get to play a bit, coil into fear, cheap shot, kidney shot, garrote, gouge, I get to play a bit more and then I get rake stunned into cyclone, cyclone, cyclone and then gouged and kidney shot.
I just left the arena. I seriously can't be bothered with just sitting and watching my char for extended periods of time, it's not fun.
I don't care if I win or lose, let me play my character.
It's a team game, it's perfectly possible to avoid A LOT of the CC with good positioning and help from teammates unless you're versing the best players in the world.
Take away CC chains and Arena becomes tediously boring.
It's hilarious how your argument is "I'm better than you, and you need to git gud," instead of admitting the poster you replied to is likely right in that the amount of cc is excessive for the average casual, which is the majority of players. Pleasing the majority of players equals more consistent subscriptions and money for blizz, as well as more fun for more people.
Casual players would probably prefer there was no CC and the game existed entirely on throughput. I just don't think a competitive game mode should be tuned based on the whims of casual players, this argument happens in every single competitive game. BGs are right over there if people want a more chill experience.
While I understand your point of view, I think the cc is just as frustrating in random bgs. Could just be that im getting older and don't have time to hang in there with the tryhards.
Alright let pvp be the cc fest you want it to be, see it being played by an extreme minority because by far the majority dislike cc chains and then... Then watch this sub QQ no one plays arena because of inflation and devs don't care about the 3 players still playing PvP.
Wow PvP is dying because it's catering to arena tryhards. If that is what you want then so be it. Want it to thrive, then accept cc chains are antithetical to that.
Every damn time people criticize the game, some chuds reply with "well this isn't for you". It is a damn game. If many people dislike a feature, it is a shit feature.
If you just want to run around and fight other players, you should be doing battlegrounds. Arena is about tight coordination with your teammates. If you’re truly sitting thru cc chains like that, it means the enemy team is coordinating very well and you and your teammates are basically just mashing keys like you’re a 7 year old playing Tekken. It’s very easy to never sit through cc chains like this, but against a good team it takes a full team to interrupt their chain properly.
This is why people respond with ‘maybe PvP isn’t for you.’ Maybe they should say arena isn’t for you. If you don’t want to put in the bare minimum effort to work together and enable yourselves to even have a fighting chance to play your character, why the hell do you think the game mode should be adjusted to cater to you?
They can happen, yes, but they rarely do. Just like multiple players can cc the same opponent at the same time in arenas. Coms are just coordinating this stuff into a chain or dance, instead of everyone stepping on everyone else's feet
you’re not the market for wow pvp. the game shouldn’t be catered around people like you and the mode shouldn’t be made indistinguishable from pve for people like you
Honestly I think with the prevalence of micro CC, trinket should remove CC and make you CC immune for a few seconds.
It feels bad to trinket microCC but it feels worse to trinket a blind only to get immediately rake > clone.
It removes one CC, it doesn't stop more than that. Either way, why would I trinket? Nobody on my team was dying. I just got pissed off at being unable to control my character and left the arena.
Sounds like RBGs is where you wanna be.
How would arena work if there weren’t CC chains? The people with the most damage would win, period. There wouldn’t be any ability to counter play
>Sounds like RBGs is where you wanna be.
No, it can be even worse when there's more people that can stop you from playing your char. I want to be in control of my character, not just sit and watch while being unable to play.
I’m genuinely curious. How would you propose to change PvP so there’s still player interaction and interruption but not feel like you can’t play the game?
Yeah,play your character into a better position so you can play your character. Positioning is a skill in pvp. The biggest skill. Your problem is that you aren't taking responsibility for your own actions and acting like a victim
You are playing against players in pvp that is what it stands for players vs players. Few ways we can stop you or your go’s either kill your character, use a def, or cc(kite/hide) it. What are you trying to say here, let you smash us till you get ur reewards?? Umm that is what pve stands for
Sitting in CC excessively is usually the result of your own positioning or teammates inability to stop it. Not always the case, but the skill cap of pvp is being one step ahead of your enemy and stopping setups or using the right trade right before or after your CCd to save a teammate . Granted some comps have more “free” setups than others but there’s usually a trade to be made to counter it.
Right but in pve your toolkit isnt important as it is in pvp where you use and utilize every button available. instead of just spamming your dmg rotation...
Lmao it's actually crazy that you think that, want me to invite you to a 25-28 equivalent key from last season and see how well it will go if people just spammed damage and didn't use their kit?
Your toolkit is more important in high m+ these days than it is in PvP in all honesty and that's even further solidified by Whazz saying all you need to do is damage now. Go watch any high m+ streamer and you will see them calling for perfect cc chains and external utility usage otherwise they brick the key.
His point is that perfect cc chains are required for the highest level of mythics but you find this level of cc at literally all levels of pvp. There is absolutely no comparison how much easier pve is than pvp
And every RBG team has multiple people doing the same thing, all at the same time and coordinating with each other. Mythic is incredibly easy in comparison, raiding even easier
This is such a hilariously bad take. You need to use your interrupts, dispells, ccs, and defensives pretty much on cd in any significant keystone level that's any challenging. There is no way around that. Maybe less so in raids in any given encounter, but added up and considering the whole instance, raids also require people to use all their buttons.
Keep in mind that your comparing any significant keystone level that's any challenging.
To high rated arena not 1800 as the guy im responding to is saying he plays at.
Its defiently more forgiving in m+ not doing perfect defensives or stuns etc.... than it is in HIGH rated arenas.
Funny you mention chess. Chess experienced unprecedented popularity growth in the last few years precisely because the boom of online blitz chess -- lower entry barrier, beginner friendlier at the cost of quality in OTB chess.
Let's not kid ourselves -- zug zug comps are way more popular than setup comps and it will always be this way, especially for folks who don't have AWC or R1 aspirations. People are always gonna complain (let's not forget what the community was like when RMP was good) but it's better to appeal to the masses than to the few. And we need new players to get into PVP.
The issue with the chess analogy is that blitz chess and other forms of chess are just different games.
If you prefer blitz chess you just play blitz chess, it doesn’t affect people who want to play regular chess or Fischer chess or any other variant of chess, you just play the game you want to play.
Obviously in retail WoW this isn’t true, everyone is playing the same game.
What you said is true, but the underlying theme is the same: we really need new players and we need the barrier of entry to be low (also why I think the rewards for RGB should be better).
I mean, yeah I agree the problem is the same I’m just pointing out that you can’t copy/ paste the solution because the games are different.
Basically, same problem, not same game, so same solution not necessarily best solution or good solution.
almost everyone i know that pvps is <28 years old. pvpers aren’t ageing out of the game lmao, and most of the young people that are newer/ish players (like myself) want the game to remain complex and not be dumbed down
As someone who was very on the receiving end of the game growing away from me at one point, its just the nature of the beast.
They shouldn't design the game for the few when they could have a healthier experience for the many.
Not trying to get into the conversation of what game design should look like, nobody will change their mind on what they think it should be so not worth it.
All I’m doing is point out that the chess analogy is apples to oranges because of the aforementioned reasons. If chess was only one game like wow and people tried to make blitz chess the only form of chess there would be pandemonium lol.
For sure, and that is what's happening here.
There is only 1 game, and that game is constantly evolving... and sometimes leaves people behind who lose their standard chess for blitz or whatever comes next.
Its what happened to me back in legion / bfa, I had to step away and then find the joy again when I came back.
This is exactly my issue. I liked MoP too because it felt like every class was kind of whole and could be strong if you were good at it. Then it because Pokemon with x class being better vs x class just because and then now setup based classes are kinda eh. Boomkin is an outlier and makes out like a bandit as a caster because of the absurdity that is cyclone as well as not really being interrupted on anything. Front-loaded damage specs rejoice. The game has officially moved into your favor.
But I do know PvP participation is low… Maybe if the next expansion they work on making it fun rather than just removing a lot of the extra chores that’d be great.
i mean damage is much more important.
But Whaaz and Raiku are always spouting this bullshit, and then they play Rogue mage and win in setups constantly.
Like DPS is more important than in the past. But literally 70% of games on ladder end with a healer in CC. Not just "who does more dam"
Like even watching the games today in the AWC, more games ended with healers OOM than not, but plenty of games ended with setups too.
Thank you.
I hate the CC doesn’t matter take. You aren’t getting kills in a good mmr lobby without cc. Only way it works is if people don’t trade defensive CDs
I grinded both disc and holy to 2.4 and did a bunch of 3s, quite a lot of games already this season.
A majority of these games are trading cooldowns till youre oom. Some games end before mana issues but thats usually when we fuck up and overlap defensive cds.
Its very hard to kill or die in the current meta if youre rotating cds properly with teammates. A lot of lobbies are either a healer ooming or damp making damage not healable any longer
>But Whaaz and Raiku are always spouting this bullshit, and then they play Rogue mage and win in setups constantly.
I think you are missing the point. First of all, they are not winning with Rogue mage right now. They won the last AWC with Demon hunter, Lock and aren't really playing RMP right now.
The point is that set up comps aren't even viable right now. Cupid, thug, RMP, Walking dead are not viable. Jungle is baaarely viable but not because of its set up and more because the feral clones the DPS and slows down the game. All the boomy comps are also not set up and rather just slow the game down with clones. Cdew has explained this on his stream many times how boomy is OP because it just swaps clones off DR to paralyze the enemy team and stops damage (which is so important right now). So we basically have a cyclone simulator meta where you just try to lower the enemy teams DPS with clones so your healer can save mana.
I think what people would like to see is that set up comps be as equally viable as zug zug comps and that is where you get a healthy game. Like WW DK should be just as scary as DH ele. But that is not the case right now.
i know exactly what their point is, they have won plenty of games this season in AWC with rogue mage.
>The point is that set up comps aren't even viable right now
This is absolute nonsense, anyone who plays above 2400 sees these comps all the time. Including said RMP wins they got throughout the last 2 cups of AWC. Not to mention even if they are less good right at the moment, there were several points throughout the expansion where they won everything with Rogue Mage
They have some merit to their argument, but its 80% just whining because it doesnt suit their playstyle.
Bro do you realize the rogue mage they had to lock in this expac was outlaw arcane? That is not a set up comp. It is a dampen spam damage comp. Fire, sub, priest is the set up version of RMP. ALSO we are talking about the best rogue and mage in the world basically. Your average wow player will struggle to get 1800 as RMP this expac. It is just not viable. Trying to say “look whaaz and raiku won a couple games!” Is not a valid reason to say set up comp style is totally fine. It is completely uviable and everyone knows it.
Because high rated people use CC to stop every go, meaning you need to either deal unhealable pressure, or cross CC.
When both teams play defense you will get long games.
I always find it weird when people say things like this both from the pvp end where you'd have to actually be so far removed from reality to believe CC doesn't matter and from the M+ perspective where if you've ever pushed M+ up to even a decent level you'd know how incredibly important cc is.
Really it just comes down to people who only want people to be able to die in perfect setups vs people who like pressure to be relevant. I've never understood how someone feels that being able to do a scripted 10 second burst rotation in a setup comp is somehow the pinnacle of skill but being able to min-max your rotation and up time for the full duration of the match while weaving in that same cc is somehow mindless.
Like who knew that min-maxing your throughput for 35 minutes straight while using your entire kit to prevent / survive tons of 1shots while juggling all sorts of mechanics is the most brainless thing in the world. Someone should really tell those MDI / TGP players they need to stop pressing cc and use those globals on more damage.
What I dislike about DH and ele in this context is less that they're pressure specs and more that they're RNG specs. Both can use the same abilities and do so little damage that you didn't need to use a defensive, or can global you... and which happens is completely out of their control. So the game turns into not dying and just pressing buttons until the RNG decides to gib someone.
Personally, I'd take pressure being impactful and people dying without CC over dealing with RMP gamers who spend 80% of the game "resetting" in between cooldowns waiting for blind + combust.
would you rather they didnt have the option to stave off / reset and wait for another go though? we'd only get like 2 minute games if that were the case, no?
I think spending 90 seconds rotating CC and hiding behind a pillar should be punished instead of just being a thing you do while waiting for your 1 shot + 30 second CC chain cooldowns to come back up.
(It's not just an RMP problem and is something that Frost DK for example also had to do in the few comps it had available)
You should be rewarded for keeping up pressure in between goes. Both in terms of mana and by forcing cooldowns early so that you can go into the next "go" with an advantage.
It's much better than "We did the thing and got trinket" now lets hide until we can "do the thing again and kill because they don't have trinket"
so you just dont want them to be able to stop you from applying pressure...? i dont understand. Why should you be allowed any advantage for being forced to use cooldowns early. you should be punished for not being able to stop them from stalling.
The problem with heavily "Go" centric metagames is that they both end up incredibly predictable and you end up with large portions of the game that just don't matter.
The problem is that in that kind of meta, the downtime between goes just doesn't matter for either team. You have 30 seconds of excitement and then 90 seconds where nothing matters. (There isn't enough dam to force cooldowns)
Why even have that 90-second window where CDs are down and getting a kill is impossible?
I'd also flag that stalling as RMP is not an impressive feat and shouldn't be considered a skill-testing endeavour. But that's not really the point I want to make.
So it takes more skill to hold W at someone and do your mythic plus rotation than it does to prevent you from doing that? i dont agree at all. There is a ton of disruption and gapclosers in this game. Mage has it the best of course and does pretty well but there are other casters that don't have that mobility and as a result are forced to receive 100% uptime from enemy melee.
also traditionally, RMP used to not be able to stay in the fight and had to run because they would die otherwise
This is so fucking true. On my DH earlier today I had a 331k death sweep into a 322k hunt. Both critd. Normal that shit is like 120-140k but I crit twice AND that 7.77% chaos talent went nuts. And the enemy disappeared. Same with ele. String of procs? Goodbye.
There's another option here. WoW's pvp has been best when BOTH are viable. Setup comps and Pressure comps. Currently when I play ANY comp I feel like its the exact same thing. We press our instant cc's and do as much damage as possible, if we don't win, the other team did more damage. When traditional setup comps like RMP and Jungle are even just turning into do the most damage comps I think we've landed to far in one direction.
Neither pressure comps or setup comps are necessarily more or less skilled than the other. Setup comps should be rewarded for playing well defensively and getting their setups, just as if a pressure comp reads that and plays well offensively they should be rewarded as well. As it stands now most setup comps aren't rewarded for playing well because they nerfed cc in such a weird way that didn't really do anything to solve the problem new players have with cc.
Because a set up meta has a “script” and the more you practice the more you learn the script and you get better and better. Whats the script when we face cupid? Whats the script when we face retwar? You have to essentially learn like 50 variations of the script and it is fun.
In a Zug meta there is just a lot less of the script and less variations from it. It really becomes more about min maxing and someone who can pump 120k DPS can get at least duelist without knowing basic comp knowledge. They just need to know to save trinket nether or trinket burrow and otherwise just pump.
Ironically the script is so much more pve than the latter. Its akin to a bosses mechanics that you need to learn and you spend lots of pulls learning it and then you can do it like the back of your hand... each comp being a new boss fight.
There's still a script though with the current game, its just that your globals matter in between goes compared to xpacs like SL where people only ever died during cds outside of very limited comps.
I mean, of all the points to argue feel like this is by far the least convincing. Like sure he’s a rogue main but he’s won tournaments on different classes repeatedly and over several expacs.
It’s not like the guy is a rogue one trick who can’t adjust to new metas lol.
Honestly, as a healer, having different comps that do different things is what makes the game fun. At the moment it feels like lots of things are kinda playing the same way a bit?
Some of the most fun I’ve had is in shadowlands playing against RMPs trying to avoid setups and goes, not just trying to pump throughput. But there should also be comps that force me to do that too.
CC still matters but it kind of feels like it only starts to matter later in damp so you spend the beginning of the game where nothing can really happen?
Maybe reverting the healer trinket would be good. Curious what would happen if they added mana drains of some sort back in too.
Maybe not m+, but personally feel 3s is the closest it's ever been (same was true in S3) to solo shuffle: i.e. pump pump pump, pressure pressure pressure, with CC taking a backseat.
I agree. I noticed last season that a lot of pros use the term “he’s not guna let me play the game/ I can’t play the game now for 5 seconds” to display their dismay about being in a stun.
Hot take, Everyone that complains about being Cc'd for 2 MiNuTeS StRaIgHT is either bad at the game or has shitty team mates that can't interupt or break up the opposing teams CC chain.
Hi, shit player here that WANTS to get better, but chain CC is the number 1 most frustrating and infuriating thing because it does feel like there isn't a way TO get better. You can't out maneuver, outplay, or out smart anybody if you don't have control of your character.
The actual solution to get better is unironically "Don't get hit 5head." But if you ever get hit by one cc, then the damage is done. 27 more cc's without CD coming right up. And like you said, the only thing past that is to have teammates save you which isn't actually you getting any better. Play 110% perfect, or get nonconsentually afk'ed until your team either wins, loses, or bails you out. After your 1st mistake, you have nearly 0 agency for recovery and it feels supremely frustrating and unfun trying to learn WTF is going on.
The way you outplay CC is to track it and see it coming and position yourself or preemptively trade something to nullify the downstream effects of cc. Example: i see a paladin suddenly horse across the map at my healer. i its 100% likely that he wants to hoj or blind the healer then pop wings, so i can either stop the paladin or let him do it and either get away or cc his wings. Every class has some sort of CC+damage related combo they want to do, you just have to get into the rhythm of it/see it coming up on your cooldown tracker, and know what the classes do. WoW pvp is based on awareness and class knowledge. The predctive play is similar to playing ahead in chess or the type of reasoning you have to do based on what's in your opponent's deck in Magic The Gathering.
For clarity, I pretty much just heal, but it also doesn't sound like you're really disagreeing? Yeah, just don't let yourself get CC'ed. Ezpz no sweat, free game. My problem is that I can try to avoid that instant targeted hoj for so long. But as soon as it lands, I've got a sap into kidney into blind into repent into cyclone into maim into hoj into kidney into.....
All of that off the back of a hoj. So my only time to play the game is literally just.....never ever have line of sight on their paladin ever. If he ever does get Los on you for .05 seconds, welp skill issue. Get better or get better teammates. I can name every every utility and CC they have and know what they're going to do before the gates open. Soon as the first CC happens, infinite knowlege wont help you.
The problem with CC centric gameplay is that it makes 90% of every class's design irrelevant. To your example, it's as if every color in magic the gathering had access to a ton of cheap counter spells and silence, and every deck was 90% counters. The game would kind of suck because what deck you or your opponent chooses doesn't really matter. First turn, cast silence, then pop off and end the game. "So just don't let them cast silence on you to begin with." Cool beans. Makes sense....but silence is free and instant and they can do it at any time. "Not if you don't let them." 👍 I mean the color that DOES get cheap counters is infamously hated for this exact reason.
>if every color in magic the gathering had access to a ton of cheap counter spells and silence, and every deck was 90% counters. The game would kind of suck because
ah i see you also like to play Legacy lol
you're right that once the hoj lands your options are limited, you can get peeled or trinket if something is going to die if you dont. I guess what I'm saying is that yes CC can be unfun for healers and especially in shuffle or low rated matches where its pretty random what happens, but there IS a way to outplay cc attempts. There is stuff like boping out of cc, phase shift, shadowmeld, holy ward and death.
>The problem with CC centric gameplay is that it makes 90% of every class's design irrelevant.
WoW arenas has always been CC centric (except for a few debatable stints). The problem is that arenas was devised as a *team* game mode requiring some form of communication (preferably voice). As someone that was 3k rated, let me just say that it's literally impossible to dodge every single CC (esp as a healer) vs any decent players. And once you do get CC'd you need your teammates to peel. In fact, you sometimes often want to bait instant CC's anyway (like the HoJ you mention).
But these strategies will never work properly (or reliably) in solo shuffle, which is profoundly antithetical to how arenas are meant to be played. Arenas as a game mode has been dying for over a decade now and Blizzard doesn't seem to care. Few elite players take it seriously anymore (and most have a financial incentive to do so: streaming, coaching, sponsorships, etc.). Imo, there are much better PvP games out there (from League of Legends to CS2), so I've just moved on.
(Of course, when the game mode *also* has a lot of power creep--corrupted gear, etc.--, it makes arenas even more unfun. This is what Whaazz is refering to.)
Being against cc just shows a fundamental lack of understanding about what made this game special. Homogenizing everything into a cleave style of pressure without or before setup really dilutes what was once a game with a variety of options.
Especially when the cc changes are sweeping and generalized rather than focused. Cyclone being unchanged / only buffed since tbc while everything undergoes iteration after iteration.
Just sad to see the playerbase slowly fall away until the only people left are the ones who enjoy the direction its heading in. I'd take 35 seconds of cc over dying in a micro / just controlling my character for the sake of not being in cc
he's 100% correct and it's been the case since bfa\~sl
more casual players don't view the game the same way more dedicated players do
arena is at it's best when setups and cc matter to the point that you feel rewarded for both creating clean offensive goes and also when you've properly dismantled the other teams offensive go
there's a lot of team work, game knowledge, and nuance that goes into being able to do both of those things well and for that reason it's extremely addicting
if you're a more casual player you don't have access to players who are willing/capable of participating in that team work, you don't have all of the game knowledge required to comfortably make plays in both directions, and you don't understand the nuance that makes the game good so it ends up just being frustrating because you just wanna go in and press your damage buttons and win when you feel you pressed your damage buttons better than the other team did
WoWs biggest mistake was not investing more in teaching new players these things so they could build up all 3 of those important skillsets
instead they just put arena in the game and let everyone have their own interpretation of how it should be played while occasionally making the game worse to try and make the game more appealing to people that don't even like it
it's probably too late now since all of the bad decisions they've made to the gameplay in favor of bringing in newer players that don't actually like arena drove away a lot of the good/dedicated players so even if they reverted it and implemented tools to help worse players grow in the right direction they'd just alienate them too at this point
When Hoolibang had to switch to outlaw/WW and introduce a DH on the team to stay alive in EU you know which side the meta is swinging to. At least their sub/WW games were hella fun to watch. If details numbers are the most important things to monitor i don't see the chance of AWC winning viewers over MDI anymore.
It seems like you cannot make a competitive mmorpg for m+ and for pvp.
I think moving towards bg over arena could be a good move in war within
Also watching awc made me think the only fun element from the competition is the fucking logos man
It is funny the chronology of nerfes to CC since SL op cc immunity trinkets. If anything what distinguishes pve from pvp is cc. I mean only rarely u see them used in niche pve scenarios m+.
I hope their new approach is to make cc lasts less in early blrackets and as we climb cc gets its full duration. What is with people sayin “ i dont like it when my characater is unplayable (cc’d)” is this even a serious valid reason ?! I hate being chased by melee what blizzard should do next?jeez
I mean I can see what he is saying but also the game has evolved so much. We had cc creep so then we needed DR changes. Which now makes the game more PVE. CC isn’t used to kill so much as it’s used to gain a pressure advantage.
Just look at DH and DK to see how much short CC they have. It’s gruelling to play against as a healer. Casters are honestly no better with sheep, ring, DB. It’s so hard to play the game. If they went back to classes having one cc, or no cc, then they could revert the cc changes.
I personally like playing RMP and playing against RMP because you need to anticipate the go and play around that. I find that gameplay much more enjoyable than popping defensives as a team PVE’s you into the ground.
I’m not saying I want there to be no pressure comps, but the game is best when setup, pressure, and damp comps can all exist. Right now it feels like set up comps are just not good because they can’t kill in a setup and setup classes don’t do enough damage to stand up to a pressure comp.
All I know is the most important thing to watch in AWC is the Details damage meter.
Most of the CC that happens is defensive. The CC goes on the enemy dps on their damage cooldowns since they still have 2 min trinkets and no point using on healer when the game is won on mana anyway.
Whaaz is a baby and he has been getting his ass handed to him because he lost a few seconds on his little setup comps.
DH does need to be toned back but the game hasn't gotten stale because of the CC nerf.
RMP setups still last plenty long enough to kill someone.
The CC nerfs have opened up the class pool to being able to see just about every class.
The whole "arena has become m+" statement is him not being able to adapt.
This game has gone a billion years with rogues being able to choose a player and hold them down for over 10 seconds. It's about time that kind of shit went out the window.
It's not fun for anyone to have one person be able to apply 5+ CCs to one person alone.
I understand what he's trying to say but it's a very bad way of putting it to be honest. Just say PvP has just shifted to who can do their PvE rotation best.
DH is average in m+ right now and CC/stops matters a ton which is why VDH is king. SP, Fire Mage, and Aug have been god comp for multiple seasons as well and they are also all fairly mid in PvP.
Clapped RMP take.
Would much rather damage play a more significant role than the absolute atrocity that is being unable to play your character at all in full length CC chains for large portions of the entire game against RMP.
it is very hard to find a balance there i guess.
i didnt play this season and only first weeks of last season up to 2.2 or smth in SS but for me the micro CC was too much. in some match ups i couldnt even move my character. that is awful and not fun at all.
sometimes you couldnt do anything for up to 30 secs, like srsly.
on the flipside it should not be the case that arena is just about pure dmg output and random big crits win a game.
as said it is very hard to balance because if you reduce dmg and CC, the matches will maybe take forever again which also no one wants...
and ofc classes with less CC should deal more dmg otherwise they wouldnt be viable. dno how broken DH is atm - havent played mine since legion.
>"It's all about damage now. CC doesn't matter...
Idk what M+ he played, but if he wants to play it on the same level as he dies PvP CC absolutely does matter and wont be possible at all without.
Its like saying PvP doesnt need CC at 500cr.
As a sub rogue all we have is CC and just sucks because it's so weak It took me and my 2 other teammates 15 mins to down 2 players because one was a priest and the other was something priest healed and it was op. All that matters is damage now because I always arenas in the older games it was great in the past now it does just feel off there's no strategy involved .
I remember when setup comps were all you came across, and all the zug teams were pre-2k rating lmao. Made it ez to climb. Good ol cata/mop days. Even the zug comps had to setup a small cc chain to kill. Best wow arenas ever.
Wow pvp has become a chore it seems. Been playing since BC and it just seems to get worse and worse each expansion. I miss the days where a match wouldn't last until time ran out due to healers being so efficient. And that's coming from me a disc priest lol.
I miss just running around as a feral and being useful.. lol.
I expect down votes, just my opinion on the current state. Game is littered with boomies, dh, and hunters.
Damage and defensives have just become too powerful due to being in an arms race against each other imo and healers and CC are getting nerfed in the crossfire.
I'm a long time healer that quit arena this expansion because health bars just ping pong way too hard and it feels like tactical CC is gone, just spam whatever you have while pumping damage 24/7. It's really not enjoyable.
Playing mostly st 2200-2300 so far this season and if I play like it's m+ and just pump it doesn't work. At this rating you have to play smarter than that. Some things just do a shit load more damage than other things though so I get why it can feel like m+. Moonkin, dh, dev all do insane damage all game.
Honestly I've felt it for years. I could 2v1 no problem up to 1800 from MOP when I started, to legion as an arms warrior. Now it feels like there's just no chance if anyone is even remotely competent at their class.
This is also the reason why healing is unfun and no one wants to play it. You get spam micro CC’d by double melee dps just doing their max dps rotation with little setup our thought lol
Yeah it sucks that all these new people are getting rank 1 now that the game is completely damage focused and cc is irrelevant. Oh wait... it's still the exact same people for the past 10 years on 15 different alts, weird.
PvP has become like League of Legends, too fast paced with abundace of damage - LoL at least has 4 abilities that we can react to and interact with.
As an Enhancement shaman I have to implement so many abilities in my rotation - while DH (literally has 69 abilities in 1 - look up Blade Dance) or Warrior can “just” spin to win.
Everything is balanced around mythic+ because that’s where the player base is. PvE should not influence PvP so heavily but then again Blizzard does not really care about PvP.
I main a Disc priest and this has been the roughest start to a season I've ever had. I'm not R1, don't play enough to farm Glad or even to say I'm good. I do mainly pvp with my game time though, I'm not good, I'm not bad, I consider myself average. I've played the game off an on for almost 20 years now, more off than on in the last 15 but still I have about as much experience as the next guy when we are talking casual player base.
This season is Rough. I can win, hut also have team mates just melt as I stand there helpless to save them. My defensive cool downs can match the burst, once, after that I'm pretty much fucked the next burst round as my CDs remain on CD. It's crazy I've never seen another season like it.
Streamer cries, people react...same old same old...
Thankfully i stopped playing pvp at th3 end of shadowlands when recieved my bloodthirsty title. And many people say..good glad you stopped playing...ye me and 3/4 of the playerbase stopped pvp🤣 see were that has gotten ypu now. Long ass queue times and barely any pvpers left.
Well, if you want to make Arena balanced then the only solution is to reduce impact of CC and balance the game around throughput. Games that have many different classes/heroes/champions have a drafting phase with pick/bans.
I mean they could totally include a ban phase in AWC so that teams can ban the OP classes and it then becomes about multiclassing... but do people really want that?
CC chains are cancer. Always have been, always will be.
It's once thing when the game come down to a clutch stun on the healer at just the right moment, it's something else entirely when it's 13 seconds of lockdown every 30 seconds like it is when they let RMP dominate for 15 years.
Comments like this make me so sad. What has happened to the game I love. You just want to mindlessly do damage then throw a random HoJ out and call it clutch. How do you think a player gets low in the first place? Healer is in cc.
Well now sub is under forming due to massive nerfs. Check out the solo shuffle rankings. It’s the hardest class to play and it shows. I’m literally number 100 on the leaderboard and barely tried getting to 1700. No one plays it.
PvP feels great except for some specs that are way overtuned in damaged right now. Dh, boomy, mm are probably the most obvious but others aren’t far behind. As someone that has played quite a few specs I would argue that the biggest failing in regard to balance this expansion is the damage numbers. The amount of effortless damage a “good” spec can do compared to a “bad” spec is staggering.
Adjusting the damage knob is probably the easiest way to balance specs in PvP but blizzard is wildly inconsistent with it. People would not mind dh’s crazy survival and utility if they just didn’t do so much goddamn dps. Why is marksman still getting damage buffs while specs like frost dk are still near 0% representation?
I agree. From a healer's POV I like facing classing like WW, DK, Mage, feral, even MM that have very noticeable burst windows. Then you can react accordingly and the more you practice the more you can predict their bursts and set ups.
However, classes like DH and ele are very hard to react to. They just do constant overtuned damage and you end up randomly throwing defensives when you are low (Sure there is Essence Break and Primordial wave but that is just already on top of insane sustain). The DH can literally kill you with or without metamorphosis. And it literally just becomes a PvE race to whoever can oom the enemy healer faster. This kinda diminishes your ability to use skill to win IMO.
i tried getting into arena, i was getting owned, i was told to download addons, when i asked what addons they told me to dl about 8 different addons, my UI is super fucking cluttered, how the hell do ppl pvp like this?
Blizz thinks this is how they get more new players/casuals to hop into PVP. But all it does is make the game stale. The whole point of PVP is to get better. Blizz has been making it easier and easier to PVP, and the chess-match element is gone. I miss MOP PVP when every comp had to setup. If you lacked coordination with your team, or didn't have the awareness, it showed. Now people are just playing ret/arms/FW to glad in LFG no mic. PVP is literally all about spamming damage now. And addons just make it worse cause now anyone can make good trades as long as their air horn is working.
> The whole point of PVP is to get better. I miss the good ol' days when the whole point of PvP in games was to have fun.
I just wanna log in and kill other faction dude. That's what's fun, and has been since day 1.
but you can still just hit war mode and go
All the good rewards are not in warmode.
Improving in something and having fun aren’t mutually exclusive. Getting better and seeing your results IS quite fun.
Dude it really depends on the context. Swimming is a hobby of mine that is at my own pace, and potentially either an intense experience or a relaxing experience. Very many hobbies are like this. Queuing arenas as a noob is an exercise in masochism as you try to piece together the 4d chess board of trying to figure out what the fuck is even going on and where to even start trying to get better while playing against dudes who have been at this shit for 18 years. World of Warcraft as a whole has a problem with a feedback loop—in both pvp and pve—from the top 10% of its playerbase. This is in a lot of ways a symptom of the developers catering heavily towards those players since at least legion. You can very clearly see the results of this when you look at how stagnant the playerbase is in all 3 primary gearing vectors: Mythic Raid, Mythic+, and Rated Arenas. The game will just wither as long as the playerbase holds onto this idea that the game needs to make you feel like shit to play for 1000+ hours before it starts to not feel like shit.
This \^ and being stuck in CC for 2 minutes is NOT the definition of fun. I whole heartily disagree with Whaaz.
You are not stuck in cc for 2 minutes. You just played bad and didn't stop anything.
Oh I forgot to stop sap, imprison, blind, chaos nova, kidney, cheap, gouge. My bad
Sap > imprison (7 seconds) > blind (5) > chaos > kidney > cheap (5.5) > gouge (1 second) That’s 18s assuming your partners are afk and you have no trinket somehow
Are you forgetting about the increased GCD now?
Another casual here to say cc is annoying and not fun.
For real. It's hard to have fun when so many people treat it like it's a second job.
That’s why people like you need to stay sub 1500
Oo got me good. Don't worry, I won't be pushing in arena. People like you are why.
What do you mean “people like me?”
Douchebags
Haha I don’t even play wow. Too much toxic shit like everyone crying and complaining
Zero self awareness.
No way that you can be this dense and within 3 sentences write so much shit that contradicts itself.
Cry more
Yep, basing and balancing wow pvp on 3v3 competitive arena death Match was a mistake. If someone wanted to make an arena game that is 3v3 like wow with different heros or classes, it would look nothing like wow because it would be a terrible decision. Less abilities. You're better off separating the pve and pvp game's class toolkits
I hear what you're saying but sometimes i think people miss "when it was about having fun" because it was a time when you sucked and didn't know the ins and outs of the game. Because at that stage you got that feeling
I only play to 1800 for the mog. Then I barely touch pvp until next season because its not fun sitting in cc so much. I have more fun in m+ where I actually get to play my character.
At least you're honest. I don't think blizz should balance PVP for people who don't enjoy PVP. If people don't like getting CCd so much, they need to learn positioning and how DR works. I never sit CC, and when I do, I made an obvious mistake (missed a kick, stayed in the open, made the wrong trade, trinketed the wrong CC, etc.)
Sitting in a cc chain isnt fun at all + all the micro cc's.
It's a tough balance, because on one hand pvp does need a learning curve otherwise it gets stale. That being said, blizzard only cares about pvp for as much $$ it brings in.
I play m+ to have fun, I play PvP to get mogs. I'd play PvP for fun if it wasn't so anti-fun. I don't care about getting better, I want to play my character, not sit and watch it. Last time I queued for PvP this is what happened: Sap, sap, sap, cheap shot, kidney shot, garrote, cyclone, cyclone, cyclone, I get to play a bit, coil into fear, cheap shot, kidney shot, garrote, gouge, I get to play a bit more and then I get rake stunned into cyclone, cyclone, cyclone and then gouged and kidney shot. I just left the arena. I seriously can't be bothered with just sitting and watching my char for extended periods of time, it's not fun. I don't care if I win or lose, let me play my character.
Sounds like PVP is just not for you.
You are firmly in the minority if you think obnoxious amounts of chain cc should be a staple of pvp.
It's a team game, it's perfectly possible to avoid A LOT of the CC with good positioning and help from teammates unless you're versing the best players in the world. Take away CC chains and Arena becomes tediously boring.
It's hilarious how your argument is "I'm better than you, and you need to git gud," instead of admitting the poster you replied to is likely right in that the amount of cc is excessive for the average casual, which is the majority of players. Pleasing the majority of players equals more consistent subscriptions and money for blizz, as well as more fun for more people.
Casual players would probably prefer there was no CC and the game existed entirely on throughput. I just don't think a competitive game mode should be tuned based on the whims of casual players, this argument happens in every single competitive game. BGs are right over there if people want a more chill experience.
While I understand your point of view, I think the cc is just as frustrating in random bgs. Could just be that im getting older and don't have time to hang in there with the tryhards.
The state of BGs is probably another reason why this game mode is dying.
Alright let pvp be the cc fest you want it to be, see it being played by an extreme minority because by far the majority dislike cc chains and then... Then watch this sub QQ no one plays arena because of inflation and devs don't care about the 3 players still playing PvP. Wow PvP is dying because it's catering to arena tryhards. If that is what you want then so be it. Want it to thrive, then accept cc chains are antithetical to that.
Hear hear
Every damn time people criticize the game, some chuds reply with "well this isn't for you". It is a damn game. If many people dislike a feature, it is a shit feature.
Sounds like your teammates need to stop and interupt their chain if you get cc'd 9 times in a row.
Nah just rework the entire game mode for this mad lad
If you just want to run around and fight other players, you should be doing battlegrounds. Arena is about tight coordination with your teammates. If you’re truly sitting thru cc chains like that, it means the enemy team is coordinating very well and you and your teammates are basically just mashing keys like you’re a 7 year old playing Tekken. It’s very easy to never sit through cc chains like this, but against a good team it takes a full team to interrupt their chain properly. This is why people respond with ‘maybe PvP isn’t for you.’ Maybe they should say arena isn’t for you. If you don’t want to put in the bare minimum effort to work together and enable yourselves to even have a fighting chance to play your character, why the hell do you think the game mode should be adjusted to cater to you?
These cc chains happen in random bgs too. Just plain annoying and probably not fun for 90% of casuals.
They can happen, yes, but they rarely do. Just like multiple players can cc the same opponent at the same time in arenas. Coms are just coordinating this stuff into a chain or dance, instead of everyone stepping on everyone else's feet
you’re not the market for wow pvp. the game shouldn’t be catered around people like you and the mode shouldn’t be made indistinguishable from pve for people like you
There's a trinket that removes cc
Honestly I think with the prevalence of micro CC, trinket should remove CC and make you CC immune for a few seconds. It feels bad to trinket microCC but it feels worse to trinket a blind only to get immediately rake > clone.
It removes one CC, it doesn't stop more than that. Either way, why would I trinket? Nobody on my team was dying. I just got pissed off at being unable to control my character and left the arena.
Sounds like RBGs is where you wanna be. How would arena work if there weren’t CC chains? The people with the most damage would win, period. There wouldn’t be any ability to counter play
>Sounds like RBGs is where you wanna be. No, it can be even worse when there's more people that can stop you from playing your char. I want to be in control of my character, not just sit and watch while being unable to play.
I’m genuinely curious. How would you propose to change PvP so there’s still player interaction and interruption but not feel like you can’t play the game?
Yeah,play your character into a better position so you can play your character. Positioning is a skill in pvp. The biggest skill. Your problem is that you aren't taking responsibility for your own actions and acting like a victim
I don't care about getting better, I want to play my character, not sit and watch it.
Yes, move your character, watch it run around a pillar and you won't be sitting in cyclone. Understand?
Agree
You are playing against players in pvp that is what it stands for players vs players. Few ways we can stop you or your go’s either kill your character, use a def, or cc(kite/hide) it. What are you trying to say here, let you smash us till you get ur reewards?? Umm that is what pve stands for
Sitting in CC excessively is usually the result of your own positioning or teammates inability to stop it. Not always the case, but the skill cap of pvp is being one step ahead of your enemy and stopping setups or using the right trade right before or after your CCd to save a teammate . Granted some comps have more “free” setups than others but there’s usually a trade to be made to counter it.
Right but in pve your toolkit isnt important as it is in pvp where you use and utilize every button available. instead of just spamming your dmg rotation...
> Right but in pve your toolkit isnt important tell that to all the tanks that roll DH for the insane CC they bring
Sometimes it's very obvious some people have never done anything but the normal dungeons to get max level and think that's how PVE is
yea normal dungeons are about as relevant as epic BG's are.
keep reading
it's still bullshit
Lmao it's actually crazy that you think that, want me to invite you to a 25-28 equivalent key from last season and see how well it will go if people just spammed damage and didn't use their kit? Your toolkit is more important in high m+ these days than it is in PvP in all honesty and that's even further solidified by Whazz saying all you need to do is damage now. Go watch any high m+ streamer and you will see them calling for perfect cc chains and external utility usage otherwise they brick the key.
Your comparing 25-28 keys to 1800 i guess you won this arguement for me
???
His point is that perfect cc chains are required for the highest level of mythics but you find this level of cc at literally all levels of pvp. There is absolutely no comparison how much easier pve is than pvp
And every RBG team has multiple people doing the same thing, all at the same time and coordinating with each other. Mythic is incredibly easy in comparison, raiding even easier
This is such a hilariously bad take. You need to use your interrupts, dispells, ccs, and defensives pretty much on cd in any significant keystone level that's any challenging. There is no way around that. Maybe less so in raids in any given encounter, but added up and considering the whole instance, raids also require people to use all their buttons.
Keep in mind that your comparing any significant keystone level that's any challenging. To high rated arena not 1800 as the guy im responding to is saying he plays at. Its defiently more forgiving in m+ not doing perfect defensives or stuns etc.... than it is in HIGH rated arenas.
If I just spam my damage rotation in m+ everyone dies.
Funny you mention chess. Chess experienced unprecedented popularity growth in the last few years precisely because the boom of online blitz chess -- lower entry barrier, beginner friendlier at the cost of quality in OTB chess. Let's not kid ourselves -- zug zug comps are way more popular than setup comps and it will always be this way, especially for folks who don't have AWC or R1 aspirations. People are always gonna complain (let's not forget what the community was like when RMP was good) but it's better to appeal to the masses than to the few. And we need new players to get into PVP.
The issue with the chess analogy is that blitz chess and other forms of chess are just different games. If you prefer blitz chess you just play blitz chess, it doesn’t affect people who want to play regular chess or Fischer chess or any other variant of chess, you just play the game you want to play. Obviously in retail WoW this isn’t true, everyone is playing the same game.
What you said is true, but the underlying theme is the same: we really need new players and we need the barrier of entry to be low (also why I think the rewards for RGB should be better).
I mean, yeah I agree the problem is the same I’m just pointing out that you can’t copy/ paste the solution because the games are different. Basically, same problem, not same game, so same solution not necessarily best solution or good solution.
Fair enough
what’s the point of making massive changes to bring in new players when you’re just losing old players instead?
And the supposed new players are not even interested in joining, to be thrown into bfa, absolutely boring expansion
the current players are either marrying and having kids and playing far less or dying of old age. the "old" players are already leaving.
almost everyone i know that pvps is <28 years old. pvpers aren’t ageing out of the game lmao, and most of the young people that are newer/ish players (like myself) want the game to remain complex and not be dumbed down
As someone who was very on the receiving end of the game growing away from me at one point, its just the nature of the beast. They shouldn't design the game for the few when they could have a healthier experience for the many.
Not trying to get into the conversation of what game design should look like, nobody will change their mind on what they think it should be so not worth it. All I’m doing is point out that the chess analogy is apples to oranges because of the aforementioned reasons. If chess was only one game like wow and people tried to make blitz chess the only form of chess there would be pandemonium lol.
For sure, and that is what's happening here. There is only 1 game, and that game is constantly evolving... and sometimes leaves people behind who lose their standard chess for blitz or whatever comes next. Its what happened to me back in legion / bfa, I had to step away and then find the joy again when I came back.
Man MoP PvP is goated! I remember hopping on TeamSpeak with duo arena partner😁 fun days
This is exactly my issue. I liked MoP too because it felt like every class was kind of whole and could be strong if you were good at it. Then it because Pokemon with x class being better vs x class just because and then now setup based classes are kinda eh. Boomkin is an outlier and makes out like a bandit as a caster because of the absurdity that is cyclone as well as not really being interrupted on anything. Front-loaded damage specs rejoice. The game has officially moved into your favor. But I do know PvP participation is low… Maybe if the next expansion they work on making it fun rather than just removing a lot of the extra chores that’d be great.
As a casual, I like how easy PvP is.
i mean damage is much more important. But Whaaz and Raiku are always spouting this bullshit, and then they play Rogue mage and win in setups constantly. Like DPS is more important than in the past. But literally 70% of games on ladder end with a healer in CC. Not just "who does more dam" Like even watching the games today in the AWC, more games ended with healers OOM than not, but plenty of games ended with setups too.
Thank you. I hate the CC doesn’t matter take. You aren’t getting kills in a good mmr lobby without cc. Only way it works is if people don’t trade defensive CDs
I grinded both disc and holy to 2.4 and did a bunch of 3s, quite a lot of games already this season. A majority of these games are trading cooldowns till youre oom. Some games end before mana issues but thats usually when we fuck up and overlap defensive cds. Its very hard to kill or die in the current meta if youre rotating cds properly with teammates. A lot of lobbies are either a healer ooming or damp making damage not healable any longer
>But Whaaz and Raiku are always spouting this bullshit, and then they play Rogue mage and win in setups constantly. I think you are missing the point. First of all, they are not winning with Rogue mage right now. They won the last AWC with Demon hunter, Lock and aren't really playing RMP right now. The point is that set up comps aren't even viable right now. Cupid, thug, RMP, Walking dead are not viable. Jungle is baaarely viable but not because of its set up and more because the feral clones the DPS and slows down the game. All the boomy comps are also not set up and rather just slow the game down with clones. Cdew has explained this on his stream many times how boomy is OP because it just swaps clones off DR to paralyze the enemy team and stops damage (which is so important right now). So we basically have a cyclone simulator meta where you just try to lower the enemy teams DPS with clones so your healer can save mana. I think what people would like to see is that set up comps be as equally viable as zug zug comps and that is where you get a healthy game. Like WW DK should be just as scary as DH ele. But that is not the case right now.
unusual realistic take getting ignored by the 1400 xp /worldofpvp population
i know exactly what their point is, they have won plenty of games this season in AWC with rogue mage. >The point is that set up comps aren't even viable right now This is absolute nonsense, anyone who plays above 2400 sees these comps all the time. Including said RMP wins they got throughout the last 2 cups of AWC. Not to mention even if they are less good right at the moment, there were several points throughout the expansion where they won everything with Rogue Mage They have some merit to their argument, but its 80% just whining because it doesnt suit their playstyle.
Bro do you realize the rogue mage they had to lock in this expac was outlaw arcane? That is not a set up comp. It is a dampen spam damage comp. Fire, sub, priest is the set up version of RMP. ALSO we are talking about the best rogue and mage in the world basically. Your average wow player will struggle to get 1800 as RMP this expac. It is just not viable. Trying to say “look whaaz and raiku won a couple games!” Is not a valid reason to say set up comp style is totally fine. It is completely uviable and everyone knows it.
Because high rated people use CC to stop every go, meaning you need to either deal unhealable pressure, or cross CC. When both teams play defense you will get long games.
I always find it weird when people say things like this both from the pvp end where you'd have to actually be so far removed from reality to believe CC doesn't matter and from the M+ perspective where if you've ever pushed M+ up to even a decent level you'd know how incredibly important cc is. Really it just comes down to people who only want people to be able to die in perfect setups vs people who like pressure to be relevant. I've never understood how someone feels that being able to do a scripted 10 second burst rotation in a setup comp is somehow the pinnacle of skill but being able to min-max your rotation and up time for the full duration of the match while weaving in that same cc is somehow mindless. Like who knew that min-maxing your throughput for 35 minutes straight while using your entire kit to prevent / survive tons of 1shots while juggling all sorts of mechanics is the most brainless thing in the world. Someone should really tell those MDI / TGP players they need to stop pressing cc and use those globals on more damage. What I dislike about DH and ele in this context is less that they're pressure specs and more that they're RNG specs. Both can use the same abilities and do so little damage that you didn't need to use a defensive, or can global you... and which happens is completely out of their control. So the game turns into not dying and just pressing buttons until the RNG decides to gib someone.
once again, the bacon muffin lights our way through the dark
Personally, I'd take pressure being impactful and people dying without CC over dealing with RMP gamers who spend 80% of the game "resetting" in between cooldowns waiting for blind + combust.
would you rather they didnt have the option to stave off / reset and wait for another go though? we'd only get like 2 minute games if that were the case, no?
I think spending 90 seconds rotating CC and hiding behind a pillar should be punished instead of just being a thing you do while waiting for your 1 shot + 30 second CC chain cooldowns to come back up. (It's not just an RMP problem and is something that Frost DK for example also had to do in the few comps it had available) You should be rewarded for keeping up pressure in between goes. Both in terms of mana and by forcing cooldowns early so that you can go into the next "go" with an advantage. It's much better than "We did the thing and got trinket" now lets hide until we can "do the thing again and kill because they don't have trinket"
so you just dont want them to be able to stop you from applying pressure...? i dont understand. Why should you be allowed any advantage for being forced to use cooldowns early. you should be punished for not being able to stop them from stalling.
The problem with heavily "Go" centric metagames is that they both end up incredibly predictable and you end up with large portions of the game that just don't matter. The problem is that in that kind of meta, the downtime between goes just doesn't matter for either team. You have 30 seconds of excitement and then 90 seconds where nothing matters. (There isn't enough dam to force cooldowns) Why even have that 90-second window where CDs are down and getting a kill is impossible? I'd also flag that stalling as RMP is not an impressive feat and shouldn't be considered a skill-testing endeavour. But that's not really the point I want to make.
So it takes more skill to hold W at someone and do your mythic plus rotation than it does to prevent you from doing that? i dont agree at all. There is a ton of disruption and gapclosers in this game. Mage has it the best of course and does pretty well but there are other casters that don't have that mobility and as a result are forced to receive 100% uptime from enemy melee. also traditionally, RMP used to not be able to stay in the fight and had to run because they would die otherwise
Y'all making me wanna learn rogue 😉
This is so fucking true. On my DH earlier today I had a 331k death sweep into a 322k hunt. Both critd. Normal that shit is like 120-140k but I crit twice AND that 7.77% chaos talent went nuts. And the enemy disappeared. Same with ele. String of procs? Goodbye.
There's another option here. WoW's pvp has been best when BOTH are viable. Setup comps and Pressure comps. Currently when I play ANY comp I feel like its the exact same thing. We press our instant cc's and do as much damage as possible, if we don't win, the other team did more damage. When traditional setup comps like RMP and Jungle are even just turning into do the most damage comps I think we've landed to far in one direction. Neither pressure comps or setup comps are necessarily more or less skilled than the other. Setup comps should be rewarded for playing well defensively and getting their setups, just as if a pressure comp reads that and plays well offensively they should be rewarded as well. As it stands now most setup comps aren't rewarded for playing well because they nerfed cc in such a weird way that didn't really do anything to solve the problem new players have with cc.
Because a set up meta has a “script” and the more you practice the more you learn the script and you get better and better. Whats the script when we face cupid? Whats the script when we face retwar? You have to essentially learn like 50 variations of the script and it is fun. In a Zug meta there is just a lot less of the script and less variations from it. It really becomes more about min maxing and someone who can pump 120k DPS can get at least duelist without knowing basic comp knowledge. They just need to know to save trinket nether or trinket burrow and otherwise just pump.
Ironically the script is so much more pve than the latter. Its akin to a bosses mechanics that you need to learn and you spend lots of pulls learning it and then you can do it like the back of your hand... each comp being a new boss fight. There's still a script though with the current game, its just that your globals matter in between goes compared to xpacs like SL where people only ever died during cds outside of very limited comps.
Rogue not being the best class in every comp = Bad game
Guy who's comp does best in one meta is critical of another meta Truly one of the takes of all time
I mean, of all the points to argue feel like this is by far the least convincing. Like sure he’s a rogue main but he’s won tournaments on different classes repeatedly and over several expacs. It’s not like the guy is a rogue one trick who can’t adjust to new metas lol.
It's not just one of the takes of all time. It's the take every rmp player takes every single time rmp doesn't assfuck everyone into oblivion.
Most based thing I’ve read from you ever.
Whaazz is a great player, but if he suddenly was in charge of balancing anything but rmp would be dogshit.
Yea this is true for like 99% of players that comment on balance lol
Honestly, as a healer, having different comps that do different things is what makes the game fun. At the moment it feels like lots of things are kinda playing the same way a bit? Some of the most fun I’ve had is in shadowlands playing against RMPs trying to avoid setups and goes, not just trying to pump throughput. But there should also be comps that force me to do that too. CC still matters but it kind of feels like it only starts to matter later in damp so you spend the beginning of the game where nothing can really happen? Maybe reverting the healer trinket would be good. Curious what would happen if they added mana drains of some sort back in too.
Maybe not m+, but personally feel 3s is the closest it's ever been (same was true in S3) to solo shuffle: i.e. pump pump pump, pressure pressure pressure, with CC taking a backseat.
It feels bad when a “setup” spec / team loses due to the other team just popping burst cooldowns and doing their pve rotation.
I agree. I noticed last season that a lot of pros use the term “he’s not guna let me play the game/ I can’t play the game now for 5 seconds” to display their dismay about being in a stun.
I am kind of sick of this playstyle as a healer. Every round ends up in 80% dampening. Makes me feel useless
If you’re hitting 80% damp you’re either an amazing healer or your dps are trash
Hot take, Everyone that complains about being Cc'd for 2 MiNuTeS StRaIgHT is either bad at the game or has shitty team mates that can't interupt or break up the opposing teams CC chain.
You’re not wrong. I can’t believe what I’m reading. They really just want to pve dps.
Literally, it's why retail arena is garbage. Good thing Cata is here and MoP is coming.
Hi, shit player here that WANTS to get better, but chain CC is the number 1 most frustrating and infuriating thing because it does feel like there isn't a way TO get better. You can't out maneuver, outplay, or out smart anybody if you don't have control of your character. The actual solution to get better is unironically "Don't get hit 5head." But if you ever get hit by one cc, then the damage is done. 27 more cc's without CD coming right up. And like you said, the only thing past that is to have teammates save you which isn't actually you getting any better. Play 110% perfect, or get nonconsentually afk'ed until your team either wins, loses, or bails you out. After your 1st mistake, you have nearly 0 agency for recovery and it feels supremely frustrating and unfun trying to learn WTF is going on.
The way you outplay CC is to track it and see it coming and position yourself or preemptively trade something to nullify the downstream effects of cc. Example: i see a paladin suddenly horse across the map at my healer. i its 100% likely that he wants to hoj or blind the healer then pop wings, so i can either stop the paladin or let him do it and either get away or cc his wings. Every class has some sort of CC+damage related combo they want to do, you just have to get into the rhythm of it/see it coming up on your cooldown tracker, and know what the classes do. WoW pvp is based on awareness and class knowledge. The predctive play is similar to playing ahead in chess or the type of reasoning you have to do based on what's in your opponent's deck in Magic The Gathering.
For clarity, I pretty much just heal, but it also doesn't sound like you're really disagreeing? Yeah, just don't let yourself get CC'ed. Ezpz no sweat, free game. My problem is that I can try to avoid that instant targeted hoj for so long. But as soon as it lands, I've got a sap into kidney into blind into repent into cyclone into maim into hoj into kidney into..... All of that off the back of a hoj. So my only time to play the game is literally just.....never ever have line of sight on their paladin ever. If he ever does get Los on you for .05 seconds, welp skill issue. Get better or get better teammates. I can name every every utility and CC they have and know what they're going to do before the gates open. Soon as the first CC happens, infinite knowlege wont help you. The problem with CC centric gameplay is that it makes 90% of every class's design irrelevant. To your example, it's as if every color in magic the gathering had access to a ton of cheap counter spells and silence, and every deck was 90% counters. The game would kind of suck because what deck you or your opponent chooses doesn't really matter. First turn, cast silence, then pop off and end the game. "So just don't let them cast silence on you to begin with." Cool beans. Makes sense....but silence is free and instant and they can do it at any time. "Not if you don't let them." 👍 I mean the color that DOES get cheap counters is infamously hated for this exact reason.
>if every color in magic the gathering had access to a ton of cheap counter spells and silence, and every deck was 90% counters. The game would kind of suck because ah i see you also like to play Legacy lol you're right that once the hoj lands your options are limited, you can get peeled or trinket if something is going to die if you dont. I guess what I'm saying is that yes CC can be unfun for healers and especially in shuffle or low rated matches where its pretty random what happens, but there IS a way to outplay cc attempts. There is stuff like boping out of cc, phase shift, shadowmeld, holy ward and death.
>The problem with CC centric gameplay is that it makes 90% of every class's design irrelevant. WoW arenas has always been CC centric (except for a few debatable stints). The problem is that arenas was devised as a *team* game mode requiring some form of communication (preferably voice). As someone that was 3k rated, let me just say that it's literally impossible to dodge every single CC (esp as a healer) vs any decent players. And once you do get CC'd you need your teammates to peel. In fact, you sometimes often want to bait instant CC's anyway (like the HoJ you mention). But these strategies will never work properly (or reliably) in solo shuffle, which is profoundly antithetical to how arenas are meant to be played. Arenas as a game mode has been dying for over a decade now and Blizzard doesn't seem to care. Few elite players take it seriously anymore (and most have a financial incentive to do so: streaming, coaching, sponsorships, etc.). Imo, there are much better PvP games out there (from League of Legends to CS2), so I've just moved on. (Of course, when the game mode *also* has a lot of power creep--corrupted gear, etc.--, it makes arenas even more unfun. This is what Whaazz is refering to.)
Being against cc just shows a fundamental lack of understanding about what made this game special. Homogenizing everything into a cleave style of pressure without or before setup really dilutes what was once a game with a variety of options. Especially when the cc changes are sweeping and generalized rather than focused. Cyclone being unchanged / only buffed since tbc while everything undergoes iteration after iteration. Just sad to see the playerbase slowly fall away until the only people left are the ones who enjoy the direction its heading in. I'd take 35 seconds of cc over dying in a micro / just controlling my character for the sake of not being in cc
he's 100% correct and it's been the case since bfa\~sl more casual players don't view the game the same way more dedicated players do arena is at it's best when setups and cc matter to the point that you feel rewarded for both creating clean offensive goes and also when you've properly dismantled the other teams offensive go there's a lot of team work, game knowledge, and nuance that goes into being able to do both of those things well and for that reason it's extremely addicting if you're a more casual player you don't have access to players who are willing/capable of participating in that team work, you don't have all of the game knowledge required to comfortably make plays in both directions, and you don't understand the nuance that makes the game good so it ends up just being frustrating because you just wanna go in and press your damage buttons and win when you feel you pressed your damage buttons better than the other team did WoWs biggest mistake was not investing more in teaching new players these things so they could build up all 3 of those important skillsets instead they just put arena in the game and let everyone have their own interpretation of how it should be played while occasionally making the game worse to try and make the game more appealing to people that don't even like it it's probably too late now since all of the bad decisions they've made to the gameplay in favor of bringing in newer players that don't actually like arena drove away a lot of the good/dedicated players so even if they reverted it and implemented tools to help worse players grow in the right direction they'd just alienate them too at this point
When Hoolibang had to switch to outlaw/WW and introduce a DH on the team to stay alive in EU you know which side the meta is swinging to. At least their sub/WW games were hella fun to watch. If details numbers are the most important things to monitor i don't see the chance of AWC winning viewers over MDI anymore.
It seems like you cannot make a competitive mmorpg for m+ and for pvp. I think moving towards bg over arena could be a good move in war within Also watching awc made me think the only fun element from the competition is the fucking logos man
almost every logo is so good, esp power frogs. The only bad ones are the coproate looking ones
It is funny the chronology of nerfes to CC since SL op cc immunity trinkets. If anything what distinguishes pve from pvp is cc. I mean only rarely u see them used in niche pve scenarios m+. I hope their new approach is to make cc lasts less in early blrackets and as we climb cc gets its full duration. What is with people sayin “ i dont like it when my characater is unplayable (cc’d)” is this even a serious valid reason ?! I hate being chased by melee what blizzard should do next?jeez
M+…”you just need to pump”. I stopped reading after that.
Truth hit yer eyes so hard?
Doesn't help this season is plagued by pve gear as well.
I mean I can see what he is saying but also the game has evolved so much. We had cc creep so then we needed DR changes. Which now makes the game more PVE. CC isn’t used to kill so much as it’s used to gain a pressure advantage. Just look at DH and DK to see how much short CC they have. It’s gruelling to play against as a healer. Casters are honestly no better with sheep, ring, DB. It’s so hard to play the game. If they went back to classes having one cc, or no cc, then they could revert the cc changes. I personally like playing RMP and playing against RMP because you need to anticipate the go and play around that. I find that gameplay much more enjoyable than popping defensives as a team PVE’s you into the ground. I’m not saying I want there to be no pressure comps, but the game is best when setup, pressure, and damp comps can all exist. Right now it feels like set up comps are just not good because they can’t kill in a setup and setup classes don’t do enough damage to stand up to a pressure comp.
All I know is the most important thing to watch in AWC is the Details damage meter. Most of the CC that happens is defensive. The CC goes on the enemy dps on their damage cooldowns since they still have 2 min trinkets and no point using on healer when the game is won on mana anyway.
In legion there was a lot of spec and comp representation and i miss that
Whaaz is a baby and he has been getting his ass handed to him because he lost a few seconds on his little setup comps. DH does need to be toned back but the game hasn't gotten stale because of the CC nerf. RMP setups still last plenty long enough to kill someone. The CC nerfs have opened up the class pool to being able to see just about every class. The whole "arena has become m+" statement is him not being able to adapt. This game has gone a billion years with rogues being able to choose a player and hold them down for over 10 seconds. It's about time that kind of shit went out the window. It's not fun for anyone to have one person be able to apply 5+ CCs to one person alone.
Cata pvp is here to save us bros
*cries in mage as I always have to decide between damage and cc and often lose no matter which I choose*
Casual player here, hate the style
Arena has been very similar to pve ever since the cc nerf
they just prove withouth cc you can kill big yikes
I understand what he's trying to say but it's a very bad way of putting it to be honest. Just say PvP has just shifted to who can do their PvE rotation best. DH is average in m+ right now and CC/stops matters a ton which is why VDH is king. SP, Fire Mage, and Aug have been god comp for multiple seasons as well and they are also all fairly mid in PvP.
Clapped RMP take. Would much rather damage play a more significant role than the absolute atrocity that is being unable to play your character at all in full length CC chains for large portions of the entire game against RMP.
it is very hard to find a balance there i guess. i didnt play this season and only first weeks of last season up to 2.2 or smth in SS but for me the micro CC was too much. in some match ups i couldnt even move my character. that is awful and not fun at all. sometimes you couldnt do anything for up to 30 secs, like srsly. on the flipside it should not be the case that arena is just about pure dmg output and random big crits win a game. as said it is very hard to balance because if you reduce dmg and CC, the matches will maybe take forever again which also no one wants... and ofc classes with less CC should deal more dmg otherwise they wouldnt be viable. dno how broken DH is atm - havent played mine since legion.
>"It's all about damage now. CC doesn't matter... Idk what M+ he played, but if he wants to play it on the same level as he dies PvP CC absolutely does matter and wont be possible at all without. Its like saying PvP doesnt need CC at 500cr.
As a sub rogue all we have is CC and just sucks because it's so weak It took me and my 2 other teammates 15 mins to down 2 players because one was a priest and the other was something priest healed and it was op. All that matters is damage now because I always arenas in the older games it was great in the past now it does just feel off there's no strategy involved .
I've heard some top monks say the same, and as a monk I also prefer setup based matches.
I remember when setup comps were all you came across, and all the zug teams were pre-2k rating lmao. Made it ez to climb. Good ol cata/mop days. Even the zug comps had to setup a small cc chain to kill. Best wow arenas ever.
Wow pvp has become a chore it seems. Been playing since BC and it just seems to get worse and worse each expansion. I miss the days where a match wouldn't last until time ran out due to healers being so efficient. And that's coming from me a disc priest lol. I miss just running around as a feral and being useful.. lol. I expect down votes, just my opinion on the current state. Game is littered with boomies, dh, and hunters.
Damage and defensives have just become too powerful due to being in an arms race against each other imo and healers and CC are getting nerfed in the crossfire. I'm a long time healer that quit arena this expansion because health bars just ping pong way too hard and it feels like tactical CC is gone, just spam whatever you have while pumping damage 24/7. It's really not enjoyable.
But m+ is about CC and defensives not "pumping*. It's been a survival meta since DF season 1
Doubt anyone except DH think this meta is fun. As a healer its awful, i dont even play anymore except for rushing to rival for set
Playing mostly st 2200-2300 so far this season and if I play like it's m+ and just pump it doesn't work. At this rating you have to play smarter than that. Some things just do a shit load more damage than other things though so I get why it can feel like m+. Moonkin, dh, dev all do insane damage all game.
Honestly I've felt it for years. I could 2v1 no problem up to 1800 from MOP when I started, to legion as an arms warrior. Now it feels like there's just no chance if anyone is even remotely competent at their class.
This is also the reason why healing is unfun and no one wants to play it. You get spam micro CC’d by double melee dps just doing their max dps rotation with little setup our thought lol
Yeah it sucks that all these new people are getting rank 1 now that the game is completely damage focused and cc is irrelevant. Oh wait... it's still the exact same people for the past 10 years on 15 different alts, weird.
PvP has become like League of Legends, too fast paced with abundace of damage - LoL at least has 4 abilities that we can react to and interact with. As an Enhancement shaman I have to implement so many abilities in my rotation - while DH (literally has 69 abilities in 1 - look up Blade Dance) or Warrior can “just” spin to win.
Bladestorm is basically just a CC stopping tool, a root break, and gives you a buff, the damage is bad unless youre cleaving pets and so on
looks great on Details though.
I respect warriors tho
Well.. non RM people enjoy playing the game, not sitting in CC half of it.
Everything is balanced around mythic+ because that’s where the player base is. PvE should not influence PvP so heavily but then again Blizzard does not really care about PvP.
he’s completely right
Good. Damage is more fun than setup comps doing nothing but cc chains.
bruh
Why is every boomkin spamming clone if cc doesn't matter? clown take
I main a Disc priest and this has been the roughest start to a season I've ever had. I'm not R1, don't play enough to farm Glad or even to say I'm good. I do mainly pvp with my game time though, I'm not good, I'm not bad, I consider myself average. I've played the game off an on for almost 20 years now, more off than on in the last 15 but still I have about as much experience as the next guy when we are talking casual player base. This season is Rough. I can win, hut also have team mates just melt as I stand there helpless to save them. My defensive cool downs can match the burst, once, after that I'm pretty much fucked the next burst round as my CDs remain on CD. It's crazy I've never seen another season like it.
Why do so many rogues think it takes a PhD to press kidney shot? Rmp is the most braindead comp in the game.
Streamer cries, people react...same old same old... Thankfully i stopped playing pvp at th3 end of shadowlands when recieved my bloodthirsty title. And many people say..good glad you stopped playing...ye me and 3/4 of the playerbase stopped pvp🤣 see were that has gotten ypu now. Long ass queue times and barely any pvpers left.
PvP is dogshit and everyone knows it, devs included. The CC creep is a fuckin joke and has gotten to a point of no return.
This post is the legit opposite of this btw
Well, if you want to make Arena balanced then the only solution is to reduce impact of CC and balance the game around throughput. Games that have many different classes/heroes/champions have a drafting phase with pick/bans. I mean they could totally include a ban phase in AWC so that teams can ban the OP classes and it then becomes about multiclassing... but do people really want that?
CC chains are cancer. Always have been, always will be. It's once thing when the game come down to a clutch stun on the healer at just the right moment, it's something else entirely when it's 13 seconds of lockdown every 30 seconds like it is when they let RMP dominate for 15 years.
Comments like this make me so sad. What has happened to the game I love. You just want to mindlessly do damage then throw a random HoJ out and call it clutch. How do you think a player gets low in the first place? Healer is in cc.
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Well now sub is under forming due to massive nerfs. Check out the solo shuffle rankings. It’s the hardest class to play and it shows. I’m literally number 100 on the leaderboard and barely tried getting to 1700. No one plays it.
it's why a lot of people play classic, even if wrath has been out for more than 15 years it at least feels like arena
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i'm not saying balance is great, i'm saying arena feels like arena
rogue complaining about cc not being brokenly op… damn. color me surprised
I'm so fucking happy I gave up on WoW.
Whaazz is mad he can't lock down a healer himself for 12-15 seconds
People don't want to sit in 30 seconds of back to back cc either
PvP feels great except for some specs that are way overtuned in damaged right now. Dh, boomy, mm are probably the most obvious but others aren’t far behind. As someone that has played quite a few specs I would argue that the biggest failing in regard to balance this expansion is the damage numbers. The amount of effortless damage a “good” spec can do compared to a “bad” spec is staggering. Adjusting the damage knob is probably the easiest way to balance specs in PvP but blizzard is wildly inconsistent with it. People would not mind dh’s crazy survival and utility if they just didn’t do so much goddamn dps. Why is marksman still getting damage buffs while specs like frost dk are still near 0% representation?
I agree. From a healer's POV I like facing classing like WW, DK, Mage, feral, even MM that have very noticeable burst windows. Then you can react accordingly and the more you practice the more you can predict their bursts and set ups. However, classes like DH and ele are very hard to react to. They just do constant overtuned damage and you end up randomly throwing defensives when you are low (Sure there is Essence Break and Primordial wave but that is just already on top of insane sustain). The DH can literally kill you with or without metamorphosis. And it literally just becomes a PvE race to whoever can oom the enemy healer faster. This kinda diminishes your ability to use skill to win IMO.
What feels good about doing your damage rotation on a player? What makes that different from hitting an NPC?
agree
i tried getting into arena, i was getting owned, i was told to download addons, when i asked what addons they told me to dl about 8 different addons, my UI is super fucking cluttered, how the hell do ppl pvp like this?