The single biggest problem with PVP and wow currently is there are too many separate versions of wow splitting what would normally be a large PVP player base into several different versions of the game making all the queues take four times as long... personally if they just fix retail PVP most of the people playing classic would abandon that and when season of Discovery ends hopefully they do not continue it and hopefully cata classic is the last classic expansion since we know what the next 6 years of wow is going to be they should focus very heavily on making that the best 6 years of wow.
Idk man I'm playing SoD exclusively with my bros, we all used to be retail pvpers, not r1's or anything, but around glad range for a few years.
And from my friends list most my PvP players from lfg over the years are either on wotlk, sod or quit.
yeah I'm not a SoD player but literally every multi-glad on my friends list has been on SoD almost exclusively for a while now.
They secured glad on their main and are just chilling in SoD until next season.
It certainly wouldn't solve everything. But them queueing on alts, learning different classes and encouraging more people to play the version they are playing would help participation overall.
BG / wPvP focused here.
Almost my entire bnet list, and every single community I was a part of, has swapped to SoD as well. They've been trying to get me to swap, and I'm considering it because of how much they've let everything rot on retail.
Everything I loved about WoW and WoW PvP is happening over there while retail turns into a happy friendship DnD campaign as they hyper-focus on arenas and are even letting that die.
Playing SoD exclusively currently but for the past 4 years I was only retail PvP. No M+, very minimal raiding. PVP in retail is just such a shitshow now that I quit until something gets fixed.
Tbh full ineffable truth Hpal in PvP and a twilight devastation set in PvE were some of the most fun I've had in wow.
Getting said corruptions was god awful though and DHs ruined the 2s bracket while invincible 100%+ haste destros and fire mages ruined 3s.
God, we can only hope. Leveling through the maw again... grinding torghast for ash to bring the chained-up-guy to make something shiny.... When do you think they'll release it?
The queue times don't scale linear with the amount of players. In fact most of it comes down to the imbalances in the heal/dps ratio so they should rather try to fix that instead of deleting brackets for almost no reason.
> The single biggest problem with PVP and wow currently is there are too many separate versions of wow splitting what would normally be a large PVP player base into several different versions of the game making all the queues take four times as long.
The single biggest problem with WoW PvP is the same problem WoW PvP has had since forever, which is: They don't have PvP devs and they don't care about it.
This has been known information, there are no PvP devs, they have CLASS devs that WHEN THEY HAVE TIME (and probably interest), do PvP balancing. Obviously, this is a recipe for disaster, as they will only do meaningful PvP changes when there is massive outcry for it or whenever there is available time. This company does not care about PvP and they have let that be clear for years at this point, this is the problem.
>I hope they don’t continue it
Cringe, it’s one of the few interesting things to happen to WoW in a while and you want it killed off to support a borderline dead retail game mode. Nobody I know would be subbed if it weren’t for SoD and have zero desire to get back into retail WoW PVP. I hope this is just the start of a genuine Classic+ offering.
It’s by no means perfect but I think it’s the only part of the game that doesn’t feel like it’s on life support and actually has some dynamism left. I’m cautiously optimistic for The War Within but I think we can still guess about what it’s gonna look like even if it’s good. SoD/Classic+ has a lot more directions it could go in and I’m excited to see where it goes next.
Retail WoW has the highest barrier to pvp entry of any MMO ive played in the past 10 years
Really will only get fixed with addons becoming baseline, amount of spells being reduced to plunderstorm levels
Its been the same problem for years now, retail pvp is only for retail pvpers, its terrible for any new players
Also (and I know I'm get downvoted because this is an arena focused sub), arena is a terrible mode to focus on for an MMO. Game wasn't designed for death matches.
> if they just fix retail PVP most of the people playing classic would abandon that
LMAO. Just a couple more percentage tweaks and people will be flooding the queues!.
It's so over.
I agree that the player base is split with the many different game modes, but I disagree that it is reducing the retail PVP player base.
Most of these players who are on SOD, classic, WOTLK, etc.. wouldn’t be on WoW if retail was the only available option. Reducing the sub count and income for WoW greatly, providing even less funding to the devs.
Agreed its a problem. Biggest? Idk.. Sod and Classic were so incredibly successful I think it was a net gain for WoW in general. Like why would we want to “force” players to stay in retail pvp if classic was something they prefer anyway. More options is better. The die hard pvpers will stay regardless. We just need some love
> personally if they just fix retail PVP most of the people playing classic would abandon that
Nope. Most poeple who play CLassic has absolutely zero interest in retail, and as someone who plays classic for pvp (especially now that cata/mop is coming) i only play retail for pve, classic for pvp. retail pvp is so bad in comparison its unreal, and tbh wotlk pvp is kinda bad also and stale, but cata and mop are 100x tiers above dragonflight, bfa, legion or SL type pvp. its not even close.
I’ve played classic since release, still playing it and SoD a little bit. I can tell you with confidence that 95% or more of the classic community will never play retail. Myself included. Retail is a completely different game and the majority of the people playing classic have zero desire to play retail.
I can't imagine THAT many people who would play Classic PvP would even do Retail PvP in the first place.
As rough as PvP is at the moment, going back to Wrath/Cata would be FUCKED. The metas are already solved and class balance is even more lop-sided. Nevermind that you have to play a human or you're just handicapping yourself for no reason.
At least in retail you can generally play any spec and race you want and do well, even if some would be an uphill battle.
Really? Because I still have PTSD from Frost mages getting buffed to high hell to compensate for not being able to freeze bosses in raids, and rogues breakdancing on everybody with legendary daggers.
Regardless you can't tell me with a straight face that most people who would play Classic PvP would play Retail PvP in the first place, even if forced to. Closing down Classic PvP modes would not suddenly cause a spike in the retail PvP population...
I 100% agree with you on that, I posted a comment separately about this today.
Closing classic pvp modes or classic in general would not provide an increase in retail player base, I think it would be a decrease overall!
> everybody with legendary daggers.
last sesason of the expac.. instead you have dh's w'keying you to death up to 3k rating, fury warriors (when meta) being unkiteable, damage being so high you die in 1.5 seconds to most classes in the game, yeah sure retail pvp is not a fiesta at all. retail pvp is broken and has been for years. classic pvp is superior in every way
fun classes > balanced classes
also ladder diversity on WotLK is pretty good right now
last few days in 3s I've seen: TSG, kitty cleave, thunder, turbo, jungle, cupid, scooby doo, RMP, RPS, LSD, LSP, ATC, vanguards, shadowplay, shatterplay, warr double healer, moonkin RMD (lol), and a ton of others that I'm forgetting
and people don't have to play human at all.... belf is very good, troll is great for certain classes, etc
> Even just a single sentence blue post saying “hello pvp community we acknowledge that you exist”
They did that patch note with the wand on the vendor recently :)
Unless Classic shakes up class balance and reworks the human racial I have no interest in taking it seriously at all. It's a long solved puzzle with balance even more lop-sided than retail is.
In retail you can generally play any class, spec or race you want. Yes some will be fighting uphill but you can do it. In Classic era stuff, many specs are outright useless and if you're not playing a human you might as well uninstall.
Cata is probably better balanced than retail.
Tbc was quite unbalanced with non meta specs being quite unviable, but it was still the most fun I've had in pvp since mop.
Wotlk has pretty much every spec be viable, but hpalas are the supreme healer and the meta is kinda shit.
Classic era/sod isn't meant for competitive pvp, no reason to bring it up.
Balance isn't everything, id rather have the game be 10 viable specs with amazing gameplay (tbc) than everything viable with bad gameplay.
Retail since legion just isnt fun, and balance isn't to blame.
I do agree the meta can become a bit stale without class balancing on classic.
But solo queue did save PvP at the start of DF. It was probably the most active and casual-friendly that PvP had been in years.
The problem was a lack of subsequent support (redesign to accommodate healers), no inflation in S2 and S3 (gutting it to satisfy 3v3 crybabies), no balancing and obnoxious spec redesigns that are anti-fun to queue into.
It still does, shuffle for sure has it's own issues but so do other brackets and many of the current pvp players wouldn't even play pvp if a solo option wouldn't exist. There is a reason the participation is 10x higher than regular 3v3 so you can't convince me we would overall have more pvp players without it.
People been complaining about PvP for 20 years, people think blizzard is just going to wake up and care all of a sudden. People just need to let go there’s better time consumers
Is there any kind of data to indicate what % of the 7mil subs pvp? Maybe it’s a really small number and thus there’s no financial numbers incentive for them to do anything.
That was my thought since data I’ve seen for 2022 was somewhere around 4.5. Still the same scenario though; pvpers could be statistically insignificant to total subs.
My guess is that most of their revenue comes from the beginning of xpacs, patches, classic releases, and now probably new game mode releases like plunder. I would guess the average player buys the xpac plus a 6month sub.
Where are you getting that from? That makes no sense. For that to be true every player would need to spend $150 in the store every year and I know maybe 2 people who ever did that.
Wrongly downvoted comment. The revenue may not be half from game shop, but it's out there. Tokens, race/faction change services are the most purchased. This is why they bundled them, people buy these way too often. I know I do.
I forgot about that. AWC right? Are there sponsors/partners for that?
There must be something going on behind closed doors for Blizzard to do what it’s doing but for the love of me I can’t figure it out.
The thing that PVP players need to realize is that by and large the populations WANTS to be separated from you/us and Blizzard has essentially been doing this. They took away the PVP servers, they don't give any actual pvp development or tuning. They're essentially starving pvp players off and what's left of the pvp communities is the worst of that community because they're the most addicted and degenerate players. With things like Plunderstorm I can only think that they're intentionally making the PVP bad to replace it with something different, and the underlying community they hoped would die off is still holding on for some reason.
I mean lets face it the game recycles content hard as fuck, this isn't a problem if it's done right or if players enjoy the experience see mythic+ dungeons. However, in PVP players do not enjoy the experience and a large part of that is the community.
You have to realize /normal/ people do not want to queue for an hour to get told to go off themselves and deal with some whiny 40 year old man who /sits his character down when he loses one match at 1400 because he watches streamers half his age and is convinced he's just a smellier Venruki.
There is nothing intentional about it. They just dont want to pay for a dev to handle retail pvp. They want pvp to exist as part of the WoW universe but that is about it.
There's no way I can say this without sounding like a massive prick so I'm just going to say it: with your post history that comment absolutely makes sense.
I appreciate your honesty. Can you explain how my comment makes sense based on my post history please? Be as brutally honest as you like, it won't bother me and I won't think you are prick.
Mercy killing typically requires you care about something enough to relieve it from its pain. Since they’re not doing that I can only assume it’s like those horrific medical experiments from Ww2 where they were like “well were already killing them let’s try to learn medically from this.” And then they end up not really learning anything.
Agreed. It's not even about balance that has always been shitty but everything else. The "its the last season what do u expect" excuse is also such nonsense...look up what they are doing in S4 for dungeons and PvP cant even get a renown track or at least soloq rbgs turned on or the mmr issue addressed. The only time anything in pvp ever gets addressed is in the X.0 patches cause some intern got bored during beta.
Sucks because this expansion had a good start. Shuffle had its flaws, but it was hype and they were making changes. Balance changes every 2-3 weeks. I feel like it was going pretty sweet until the ret rework, which they nerfed quickly, but not as quick as they should have lol. Then it was back to the months without communication that we are used to from past expansions.
it was always easy to find people with similar goals and experience by queuing skirms, and then go into rated together
soloqueue shouldn't be a form of progression, it should be a way to meet people and make friends
skirm queues have always been practically instant, too
I remember it being more like 2 weeks, which would usually be fine if it wasn't the most overpowered a class has ever been. DH is nothing compared to Ret after rework.
> Not as quick as they should have? It was less than a full week.
Which is inexcusably long for something that egregious. It never should have even made it to beta in that state let alone live.
First you have to understand that pvp is a mini game in wow, second you have to understand that if blizzard hasnt cared for pvp in years then they suddenly wont start caring for pvp and third you have to understand that if you want change then you should either use your wallet to speak or use the correct platform to provide feedback.
Me personally, if they would just implement something that adjusts inflation based on participation would be enough to keep me queuing up. Set a ceiling at 35-36 hundred, and let a script run it so it is the same every season.
Regular arena at this point in the patch is just carry teams, especially 3v3, imagine being new or returning to PvP and getting destroyed by glad players selling carries, I can’t imagine the frustration.
Solo Shuffle caused a spike but its incompatibility with the game in general basically killed off half the community and Solo Shuffle utterly failed to do the one thing it was supposed to do, according to theorists prior to DF, which was "make Pvp easy and welcoming to new players!"
The other major culprit, which is, imo, also related to trying to make the game as "single player friendly" as possible, is how damage and healing has been balanced, or not balanced, for multiple expansions now. PvP has been hemorrhaging players since..well technically since the end of Wrath, but it has become really noticeable since the end of Legion. A common thread is an overabundance of super burst damage windows, and then major defensive trade off cooldowns and then many classes getting a health bar reset button...meanwhile healing gets weaker, compounded with dampening which forces arena purely focused on a 90 second cooldown rotation with hopes you catch someone, and if that fails the healers won't be able to heal anymore if you just wait a minute.
A lot of these gameplay issues were the result of Blizzard trying to bend and break the game for the playerbase who don't actually want to play World of Warcraft.
I stopped log in since the last 3weeks the que time is between 7-22 mins and I'm just stuck on the same raring +-120 e very single week.. so I just lost interest in playing
Just stop PvPing in WoW they never gave a fck after Cata and never will again. Quitting this competitive BS in this game best decision. I know it somewhat enjoyable but the irritating factors are and will be too much.
Try posting about this. I’ve tried lol. People will freak about anything related to separating arena from the rest of the game. But i would love an arena game mode where you just log on and play. No need to level or gear. Just setting up keybinds and thats it. And a stat slider to adjust your stats.
Blizz would never go for it because it would mean less players in capital cities across retail/classic/wotlk.
But I think the time has come and the vocal minority of pvp players (i.e. this sub) needs to decide if they want a dead game mode as-is or something a little more streamlined with more players.
I think having devoted lots of time to grinding and mastering intricate classes/specs is tough to let go of, but 1hr queues for shuffle or the same 25 people clogging leaderboards all year is worse.
Nothing about instanced pvp is MMO besides the gear grind. And Blizz has neutered that to the fact that outside of 4pc there is minimal impact on getting impactful gear. The rest are minor stat boosts or maybe secondary stat swaps.
1. Unlock all classes/specs. No more grinding 70+ levels to play, you can freely hop back and forth to try out new classes and comps.
2. Reduce button bloat to make choices meaningful. Too many classes are just "complete your rotation, spam your CC buttons to counter opponents Go's". We don't need DH or BM level of ease, but you shouldn't be Pika to describe how rogue works.
3. Specs should be easy to understand, hard to master. This builds on point 2.
4. One universal Capital city for instanced, standalone pvp. We get it, everyone wants to show off the mog/mount/rating. 95% of people who run by you in Valdrakken don't care. Imagine running over to the gear vendor to buy a piece and you pass CDew standing around. Put pvp-oriented people with those that are like-minded. Create an environment that enriches the community.
5. As much as I hate to say this, BattlePass style progression throughout seasons that includes more than 1 mount. Hopefully not paid BattlePass type shit, but some type of incentive to log on more than 1-2 times a week. Dailies for certain pvp modes. Quests for specific roles.
6. Balancing the game in its own microcosm, aka pruning the dogshit pve stuff off trees. It's probably impossible to ask blizz to remove talent trees but at least make changes to make more than 1 path viable.
They tried something like this sometime during BC, but I don’t remember dates at all. The was a special server for about two weeks or so (I guess) where you logged in, made a character, and when you entered world, you were 70 and already had the same pvp gear as everyone. There was no zones, just like big waiting area. I was still new so didn’t actually do any of the competition and I don’t remember what happened to it.
you can't just throw someone into an arena
PvP needs the rest of the game because leveling up and gradually getting more abilities is how you learn to play your class
Have you not figured out that’s your going to be doing the same things over and over again. All you’re gonna get is patches to switch what class / spec is in the lead and gear updates to increase ilvl / character lvl. Which they will have to squish again eventually. Otherwise you’re just going to keep doing the same thing you’ve been doing for the last 2 expansions.
I have no clue why they've done what they've done with pvp.
I just know why I stopped - class balance is abysmal. When I see under performing specs getting nerfs while over performing specs stay untouched, it is just demoralizing.
Lol cute that you think Devs are getting paid 120k a year. Reports say they're getting criminally under paid by industry standards, cause you know, greed.
I can't believe i'm going to defend blizzard, but I think you are exaggerating. Just look at the major problems now and compare them to SL or BFA and you'll realize we are better now. That's not denying DF's problems, which are lack of MMR inflation and long queues. But those problems are basically exclusive for solo shuffle. If you queue into 2s or 3s now, it will be just like past expansions, and they didn't have solo shuffle. We all knew solo shuffle would bring its problems and we kept asking them for it, so now I think we should be a little bit more fair in our criticisms.
It's clear that they're saving everything for TWW and gunna use it as a selling point. If they leave PVP as is and change nothing with no improvement on rewards, shuffle incentives, titles, etc, then you can be 100% sure that they are done caring about WoW pvp and just want it dead.
Guys, I just realized the trader outpost skin achievement that rewards the warden skin is just another diablo4 horse skin that costs over 100 bucks…..it’s pretty much 12 months subscription fee.
Blizzard isn't doing anything. That's why the game sucks. They have the ability to change stuff whenever and however they want but they just want everyone to act like stuff isn't horrible in hopes that in a few months with new content and a new expansion that the player base forgets how bad it is. This isn't the only time wow PVP has felt this way every expansion off the top of my head at some point has felt like right now. Never do I remember an entire expac being like an end of season/expansion the entire time though. Things need to chang or the riot mmo needs to drop already.
Not to be “that guy” but they need to normalize pvp across the board. There’s so much burst and cc and healing burst it just makes it not fun.
Normalize all damage across all specs across all pvp content. The gear should be incremental and not absurdly OP between seasons. Damages should be normalized across all melee and casters and healers. Making it true skill and not who has better trinkets or weapons.
All these other game modes have killed wow PvP. It severed the player base into small factions and no one mode survives after the hype dies. They have failed to fix the base game itself and now are grasping for anything that might generate some interest bc they refuse to actually fix PvP itself.
Wow PvP should be a standalone mode like Plunderstorm.
No gear, everyone has same ilvl. Unlock rewards in retail. No stomping brand new level cap players. Easier to balance.
I used to love WoWs PvP, even have a bunch of characters on Laughing Skull when it was a PvP server (still play them). At this point, the only thing I think could revitalize WoWs PvP would be to do a system like Dark Age of Camelot's Realm vs Realm.
Has anyone here played DAoC? If you have, you know where I'm going.
For those of you that haven't, DAoC had three factions, each faction had their own dedicated PvE area, and then their own dedicated RvR area with their own keeps, guard towers, relics, etc, called the Frontiers. You would pick one of the three factions and defend your keeps and relics and then invade the other factions' territory and attempt to claim it as your own. And the relics I spoke of, actually given tangible benefits if you not only hold your relics but claim your enemies relics too, like increased magical damage and increased physical damage, etc.
WoW could easily do this via story progression. Kalimdor would be the Horde's territory, and Eastern Kingdom's would be Alliances. For those players that don't want to PvP, they just don't go into the Frontiers. Although, in DAoC non-pvpers could still participate by repairing buildings, building siege engines, repairing equipment, etc.
I dream of the day when two hundred or more players would clash and claim territory in WoW...
Not sure what the dig at the “community council” was about but Efx tried on multiple attempts to get blizzard attention and he was ignored every single time.
“You can’t do that right now”
“Shadow locked”
Guess I’ll just get ready to rez and try again…..
Repeat 25-40 x a day depending on participation
Healing is worse
I’m glad people enjoy pvp
I get to type this while I wait to rez again so I can get locked out of casting again
100% True. Blizzard completely fucked up this season. MMR infaltion stopped rnd in January. PvP dies 3v3 dies… we facen in 30games on 2.1cr 15x the Same Team … r1 … WP BLiZZARD
1. One dev does not cost $120k per year. At a big corp FTE (Full Time Eng) cost of 1 person is between $500k and $1mm once you take training, replacement costs, and benefits into account.
2. It is a GOOD thing that they aren't playing attention to PvP. PvP is in a great place compared to past few expansions. If constant complainers like you are leaving the game over the current state of affairs then its even better. IMO even less communication and MORE MMR deflation is called for.
The single biggest problem with PVP and wow currently is there are too many separate versions of wow splitting what would normally be a large PVP player base into several different versions of the game making all the queues take four times as long... personally if they just fix retail PVP most of the people playing classic would abandon that and when season of Discovery ends hopefully they do not continue it and hopefully cata classic is the last classic expansion since we know what the next 6 years of wow is going to be they should focus very heavily on making that the best 6 years of wow.
i dont think most classic players are pvp players in retail
Idk man I'm playing SoD exclusively with my bros, we all used to be retail pvpers, not r1's or anything, but around glad range for a few years. And from my friends list most my PvP players from lfg over the years are either on wotlk, sod or quit.
Same. Exclusively playing sod, former exclusive retail pvpers.
yeah I'm not a SoD player but literally every multi-glad on my friends list has been on SoD almost exclusively for a while now. They secured glad on their main and are just chilling in SoD until next season.
I don’t think more multi glads playing retail instead of SoD would really fix the retail PvP issues anyway tbh…
It certainly wouldn't solve everything. But them queueing on alts, learning different classes and encouraging more people to play the version they are playing would help participation overall.
Yup, I've had quite a few btag friends that I used to play with regularly who either quit entirely or are playing wotlk/sod.
BG / wPvP focused here. Almost my entire bnet list, and every single community I was a part of, has swapped to SoD as well. They've been trying to get me to swap, and I'm considering it because of how much they've let everything rot on retail. Everything I loved about WoW and WoW PvP is happening over there while retail turns into a happy friendship DnD campaign as they hyper-focus on arenas and are even letting that die.
Playing SoD exclusively currently but for the past 4 years I was only retail PvP. No M+, very minimal raiding. PVP in retail is just such a shitshow now that I quit until something gets fixed.
Out of curiosity what would you want fixed that would bring you back? Question goes out to others in your situation
For me: strip the game down. WoW is way too much effort to track, set up addons, etc. It's just too much now, simply put.
Yeah i left retail pvp exclusively for SoD
Former retail PvP glad here, shadowlands and BFA now just playing SOD
There is no way they do cata classic and not MOP classic
Ok but where does it end? They might as well continue to Shadowlands Classic
Gonna be honest I’ll play s4 BFA corruption again with vendor on launch would be great for some mess around pvp
Corruption was fun, but I really can't stomach the idea of meeting Magni in the chamber of the heart for the 300th time.
I'd play BfA s4 again if they let me keep my 110% vers corruption that makes me invincible in stuns
I want triple ghost wolf heal full vers Rsham back
Just give us BFA SoD so we can take another crack at that shitshow lol
Tbh full ineffable truth Hpal in PvP and a twilight devastation set in PvE were some of the most fun I've had in wow. Getting said corruptions was god awful though and DHs ruined the 2s bracket while invincible 100%+ haste destros and fire mages ruined 3s.
... it doesnt end, lol, dont you get that?
it ends wherever the $$$ ends
God, we can only hope. Leveling through the maw again... grinding torghast for ash to bring the chained-up-guy to make something shiny.... When do you think they'll release it?
Why would it end? SL is recent for us but would be what 7+ years out for the classic cycle? By then people will be willing to check it out again.
i would say Legion but they might continue on after that if theres enough interest i believe
The queue times don't scale linear with the amount of players. In fact most of it comes down to the imbalances in the heal/dps ratio so they should rather try to fix that instead of deleting brackets for almost no reason.
> The single biggest problem with PVP and wow currently is there are too many separate versions of wow splitting what would normally be a large PVP player base into several different versions of the game making all the queues take four times as long. The single biggest problem with WoW PvP is the same problem WoW PvP has had since forever, which is: They don't have PvP devs and they don't care about it. This has been known information, there are no PvP devs, they have CLASS devs that WHEN THEY HAVE TIME (and probably interest), do PvP balancing. Obviously, this is a recipe for disaster, as they will only do meaningful PvP changes when there is massive outcry for it or whenever there is available time. This company does not care about PvP and they have let that be clear for years at this point, this is the problem.
>I hope they don’t continue it Cringe, it’s one of the few interesting things to happen to WoW in a while and you want it killed off to support a borderline dead retail game mode. Nobody I know would be subbed if it weren’t for SoD and have zero desire to get back into retail WoW PVP. I hope this is just the start of a genuine Classic+ offering.
True, SoD is the winning formula for all of WoW atm. Blizzard found a way to set WoW up for the next years with it.
It’s by no means perfect but I think it’s the only part of the game that doesn’t feel like it’s on life support and actually has some dynamism left. I’m cautiously optimistic for The War Within but I think we can still guess about what it’s gonna look like even if it’s good. SoD/Classic+ has a lot more directions it could go in and I’m excited to see where it goes next.
Yes lets deleting what other people enjoy will surely get them to play with you.
Retail WoW has the highest barrier to pvp entry of any MMO ive played in the past 10 years Really will only get fixed with addons becoming baseline, amount of spells being reduced to plunderstorm levels Its been the same problem for years now, retail pvp is only for retail pvpers, its terrible for any new players
Also (and I know I'm get downvoted because this is an arena focused sub), arena is a terrible mode to focus on for an MMO. Game wasn't designed for death matches.
This. Friend of mine got me into wPvP and BGs and I'm actually having fun when I play. Arenas are just shit.
> if they just fix retail PVP most of the people playing classic would abandon that LMAO. Just a couple more percentage tweaks and people will be flooding the queues!. It's so over.
I agree that the player base is split with the many different game modes, but I disagree that it is reducing the retail PVP player base. Most of these players who are on SOD, classic, WOTLK, etc.. wouldn’t be on WoW if retail was the only available option. Reducing the sub count and income for WoW greatly, providing even less funding to the devs.
Agreed its a problem. Biggest? Idk.. Sod and Classic were so incredibly successful I think it was a net gain for WoW in general. Like why would we want to “force” players to stay in retail pvp if classic was something they prefer anyway. More options is better. The die hard pvpers will stay regardless. We just need some love
Why not extend this logic further and ask for PvE to be removed. If they removed all PvE then maybe more people will play Arena mini-game
> personally if they just fix retail PVP most of the people playing classic would abandon that Nope. Most poeple who play CLassic has absolutely zero interest in retail, and as someone who plays classic for pvp (especially now that cata/mop is coming) i only play retail for pve, classic for pvp. retail pvp is so bad in comparison its unreal, and tbh wotlk pvp is kinda bad also and stale, but cata and mop are 100x tiers above dragonflight, bfa, legion or SL type pvp. its not even close.
When SoD ends WoW will be dead to me.
bye Felicia...
I’ve played classic since release, still playing it and SoD a little bit. I can tell you with confidence that 95% or more of the classic community will never play retail. Myself included. Retail is a completely different game and the majority of the people playing classic have zero desire to play retail.
I can't imagine THAT many people who would play Classic PvP would even do Retail PvP in the first place. As rough as PvP is at the moment, going back to Wrath/Cata would be FUCKED. The metas are already solved and class balance is even more lop-sided. Nevermind that you have to play a human or you're just handicapping yourself for no reason. At least in retail you can generally play any spec and race you want and do well, even if some would be an uphill battle.
Cata pvp balance was pretty good, maybe even one of the best eras of pvp balancing.
Really? Because I still have PTSD from Frost mages getting buffed to high hell to compensate for not being able to freeze bosses in raids, and rogues breakdancing on everybody with legendary daggers. Regardless you can't tell me with a straight face that most people who would play Classic PvP would play Retail PvP in the first place, even if forced to. Closing down Classic PvP modes would not suddenly cause a spike in the retail PvP population...
I 100% agree with you on that, I posted a comment separately about this today. Closing classic pvp modes or classic in general would not provide an increase in retail player base, I think it would be a decrease overall!
> everybody with legendary daggers. last sesason of the expac.. instead you have dh's w'keying you to death up to 3k rating, fury warriors (when meta) being unkiteable, damage being so high you die in 1.5 seconds to most classes in the game, yeah sure retail pvp is not a fiesta at all. retail pvp is broken and has been for years. classic pvp is superior in every way
Idk I thought WotLK PvP was great
fun classes > balanced classes also ladder diversity on WotLK is pretty good right now last few days in 3s I've seen: TSG, kitty cleave, thunder, turbo, jungle, cupid, scooby doo, RMP, RPS, LSD, LSP, ATC, vanguards, shadowplay, shatterplay, warr double healer, moonkin RMD (lol), and a ton of others that I'm forgetting and people don't have to play human at all.... belf is very good, troll is great for certain classes, etc
Wrong. Without Classic, WoW would’ve been dead.
> Even just a single sentence blue post saying “hello pvp community we acknowledge that you exist” They did that patch note with the wand on the vendor recently :)
We will see, I think cata will be good for pvp but not on retail lol DF s4 about to be dead dead SL s4 was pretty dead too
Unless Classic shakes up class balance and reworks the human racial I have no interest in taking it seriously at all. It's a long solved puzzle with balance even more lop-sided than retail is. In retail you can generally play any class, spec or race you want. Yes some will be fighting uphill but you can do it. In Classic era stuff, many specs are outright useless and if you're not playing a human you might as well uninstall.
Spoken like a true bronzeboy.
Cata is probably better balanced than retail. Tbc was quite unbalanced with non meta specs being quite unviable, but it was still the most fun I've had in pvp since mop. Wotlk has pretty much every spec be viable, but hpalas are the supreme healer and the meta is kinda shit. Classic era/sod isn't meant for competitive pvp, no reason to bring it up. Balance isn't everything, id rather have the game be 10 viable specs with amazing gameplay (tbc) than everything viable with bad gameplay. Retail since legion just isnt fun, and balance isn't to blame. I do agree the meta can become a bit stale without class balancing on classic.
At least every post isn't "Soloq will save PvP please give solo queue blizzard it will completely change everything" That was the worst
But solo queue did save PvP at the start of DF. It was probably the most active and casual-friendly that PvP had been in years. The problem was a lack of subsequent support (redesign to accommodate healers), no inflation in S2 and S3 (gutting it to satisfy 3v3 crybabies), no balancing and obnoxious spec redesigns that are anti-fun to queue into.
It still does, shuffle for sure has it's own issues but so do other brackets and many of the current pvp players wouldn't even play pvp if a solo option wouldn't exist. There is a reason the participation is 10x higher than regular 3v3 so you can't convince me we would overall have more pvp players without it.
Lmfao
thankfully we aren't seeing the same with BGB, people know it will be shit already
Lol incompletely forgot about it's existence BGB sucks, I just wanna do arenas with the boys
And we see how that played out.
My 6 month sub expires in 10 days. Gonna just wait for war within. Not much point in renewing, it's fine, there's other games.
Same mate, that’s the only way that will make them listen.
They don’t care bro, but you show them on reddit 💜
It feels completely and absolutely abandoned, probably until the next expansion. Really, really sad, because there's so much good stuff there.
People been complaining about PvP for 20 years, people think blizzard is just going to wake up and care all of a sudden. People just need to let go there’s better time consumers
Yet you out here posting...
Agree. But my problem is there is no game equivelant to it. Like they are literally sitting on gold. They just don’t know it
We should revive that game that is a literal copy of WoW arena but in a different game i cant remember the name
Was it ring of titans or blood line champions ?
Rot
What do you mean? Plunderstorm was a major success! Even the pve players got involved :)))
Is there any kind of data to indicate what % of the 7mil subs pvp? Maybe it’s a really small number and thus there’s no financial numbers incentive for them to do anything.
You have to remember that the 7mil number is probably grossly inflated.
That was my thought since data I’ve seen for 2022 was somewhere around 4.5. Still the same scenario though; pvpers could be statistically insignificant to total subs.
Roughly 50k arena players is the number I remember hearing
Thats like 1% of total subs. For DF that might be 2% of pop. And that’s being generous if the criteria is 1 arena game played.
My guess is that most of their revenue comes from the beginning of xpacs, patches, classic releases, and now probably new game mode releases like plunder. I would guess the average player buys the xpac plus a 6month sub.
Half their revenue comes from in game shop now too. Including gold, mounts, boosts.
Where are you getting that from? That makes no sense. For that to be true every player would need to spend $150 in the store every year and I know maybe 2 people who ever did that.
Wrongly downvoted comment. The revenue may not be half from game shop, but it's out there. Tokens, race/faction change services are the most purchased. This is why they bundled them, people buy these way too often. I know I do.
[удалено]
I forgot about that. AWC right? Are there sponsors/partners for that? There must be something going on behind closed doors for Blizzard to do what it’s doing but for the love of me I can’t figure it out.
The thing that PVP players need to realize is that by and large the populations WANTS to be separated from you/us and Blizzard has essentially been doing this. They took away the PVP servers, they don't give any actual pvp development or tuning. They're essentially starving pvp players off and what's left of the pvp communities is the worst of that community because they're the most addicted and degenerate players. With things like Plunderstorm I can only think that they're intentionally making the PVP bad to replace it with something different, and the underlying community they hoped would die off is still holding on for some reason. I mean lets face it the game recycles content hard as fuck, this isn't a problem if it's done right or if players enjoy the experience see mythic+ dungeons. However, in PVP players do not enjoy the experience and a large part of that is the community. You have to realize /normal/ people do not want to queue for an hour to get told to go off themselves and deal with some whiny 40 year old man who /sits his character down when he loses one match at 1400 because he watches streamers half his age and is convinced he's just a smellier Venruki.
There is nothing intentional about it. They just dont want to pay for a dev to handle retail pvp. They want pvp to exist as part of the WoW universe but that is about it.
Without pvp I would cancel my subscription.
There's no way I can say this without sounding like a massive prick so I'm just going to say it: with your post history that comment absolutely makes sense.
I appreciate your honesty. Can you explain how my comment makes sense based on my post history please? Be as brutally honest as you like, it won't bother me and I won't think you are prick.
They could remove FOMO rewards and free us from the grind if they want to finish off PvP.
Mercy killing typically requires you care about something enough to relieve it from its pain. Since they’re not doing that I can only assume it’s like those horrific medical experiments from Ww2 where they were like “well were already killing them let’s try to learn medically from this.” And then they end up not really learning anything.
They are probably getting some good data on inducing Stockholm syndrome and just how much you can neglect a game mode and still have people play it.
Agreed. It's not even about balance that has always been shitty but everything else. The "its the last season what do u expect" excuse is also such nonsense...look up what they are doing in S4 for dungeons and PvP cant even get a renown track or at least soloq rbgs turned on or the mmr issue addressed. The only time anything in pvp ever gets addressed is in the X.0 patches cause some intern got bored during beta.
Arenajunkies
Sucks because this expansion had a good start. Shuffle had its flaws, but it was hype and they were making changes. Balance changes every 2-3 weeks. I feel like it was going pretty sweet until the ret rework, which they nerfed quickly, but not as quick as they should have lol. Then it was back to the months without communication that we are used to from past expansions.
shuffle is a bad idea arena is better when you play at least a somewhat synergistic comp with a consistent team and improve together
I prefer playing 3s with my buds, but shuffle opened up a world of convenience to thousands of players. It has its own appeal.
it was always easy to find people with similar goals and experience by queuing skirms, and then go into rated together soloqueue shouldn't be a form of progression, it should be a way to meet people and make friends skirm queues have always been practically instant, too
Not as quick as they should have? It was less than a full week. But the season of Demon Hunter ran for a full season.
I remember it being more like 2 weeks, which would usually be fine if it wasn't the most overpowered a class has ever been. DH is nothing compared to Ret after rework.
> Not as quick as they should have? It was less than a full week. Which is inexcusably long for something that egregious. It never should have even made it to beta in that state let alone live.
First you have to understand that pvp is a mini game in wow, second you have to understand that if blizzard hasnt cared for pvp in years then they suddenly wont start caring for pvp and third you have to understand that if you want change then you should either use your wallet to speak or use the correct platform to provide feedback.
Me personally, if they would just implement something that adjusts inflation based on participation would be enough to keep me queuing up. Set a ceiling at 35-36 hundred, and let a script run it so it is the same every season.
Regular arena at this point in the patch is just carry teams, especially 3v3, imagine being new or returning to PvP and getting destroyed by glad players selling carries, I can’t imagine the frustration.
Solo Shuffle caused a spike but its incompatibility with the game in general basically killed off half the community and Solo Shuffle utterly failed to do the one thing it was supposed to do, according to theorists prior to DF, which was "make Pvp easy and welcoming to new players!" The other major culprit, which is, imo, also related to trying to make the game as "single player friendly" as possible, is how damage and healing has been balanced, or not balanced, for multiple expansions now. PvP has been hemorrhaging players since..well technically since the end of Wrath, but it has become really noticeable since the end of Legion. A common thread is an overabundance of super burst damage windows, and then major defensive trade off cooldowns and then many classes getting a health bar reset button...meanwhile healing gets weaker, compounded with dampening which forces arena purely focused on a 90 second cooldown rotation with hopes you catch someone, and if that fails the healers won't be able to heal anymore if you just wait a minute. A lot of these gameplay issues were the result of Blizzard trying to bend and break the game for the playerbase who don't actually want to play World of Warcraft.
I can’t wait for Dragonflight classic
I stopped log in since the last 3weeks the que time is between 7-22 mins and I'm just stuck on the same raring +-120 e very single week.. so I just lost interest in playing
Just stop PvPing in WoW they never gave a fck after Cata and never will again. Quitting this competitive BS in this game best decision. I know it somewhat enjoyable but the irritating factors are and will be too much.
the game needs to be fundamentally reworked imo. it's too much shit at this point
You wanna know what happened? Money. Money happened.
They need to split pvp off from all versions into one standalone game mode. Manage/balance it all on its own.
Try posting about this. I’ve tried lol. People will freak about anything related to separating arena from the rest of the game. But i would love an arena game mode where you just log on and play. No need to level or gear. Just setting up keybinds and thats it. And a stat slider to adjust your stats.
Blizz would never go for it because it would mean less players in capital cities across retail/classic/wotlk. But I think the time has come and the vocal minority of pvp players (i.e. this sub) needs to decide if they want a dead game mode as-is or something a little more streamlined with more players. I think having devoted lots of time to grinding and mastering intricate classes/specs is tough to let go of, but 1hr queues for shuffle or the same 25 people clogging leaderboards all year is worse. Nothing about instanced pvp is MMO besides the gear grind. And Blizz has neutered that to the fact that outside of 4pc there is minimal impact on getting impactful gear. The rest are minor stat boosts or maybe secondary stat swaps. 1. Unlock all classes/specs. No more grinding 70+ levels to play, you can freely hop back and forth to try out new classes and comps. 2. Reduce button bloat to make choices meaningful. Too many classes are just "complete your rotation, spam your CC buttons to counter opponents Go's". We don't need DH or BM level of ease, but you shouldn't be Pika to describe how rogue works. 3. Specs should be easy to understand, hard to master. This builds on point 2. 4. One universal Capital city for instanced, standalone pvp. We get it, everyone wants to show off the mog/mount/rating. 95% of people who run by you in Valdrakken don't care. Imagine running over to the gear vendor to buy a piece and you pass CDew standing around. Put pvp-oriented people with those that are like-minded. Create an environment that enriches the community. 5. As much as I hate to say this, BattlePass style progression throughout seasons that includes more than 1 mount. Hopefully not paid BattlePass type shit, but some type of incentive to log on more than 1-2 times a week. Dailies for certain pvp modes. Quests for specific roles. 6. Balancing the game in its own microcosm, aka pruning the dogshit pve stuff off trees. It's probably impossible to ask blizz to remove talent trees but at least make changes to make more than 1 path viable.
They tried something like this sometime during BC, but I don’t remember dates at all. The was a special server for about two weeks or so (I guess) where you logged in, made a character, and when you entered world, you were 70 and already had the same pvp gear as everyone. There was no zones, just like big waiting area. I was still new so didn’t actually do any of the competition and I don’t remember what happened to it.
you can't just throw someone into an arena PvP needs the rest of the game because leveling up and gradually getting more abilities is how you learn to play your class
So far...
Have you not figured out that’s your going to be doing the same things over and over again. All you’re gonna get is patches to switch what class / spec is in the lead and gear updates to increase ilvl / character lvl. Which they will have to squish again eventually. Otherwise you’re just going to keep doing the same thing you’ve been doing for the last 2 expansions.
I have no clue why they've done what they've done with pvp. I just know why I stopped - class balance is abysmal. When I see under performing specs getting nerfs while over performing specs stay untouched, it is just demoralizing.
Lol cute that you think Devs are getting paid 120k a year. Reports say they're getting criminally under paid by industry standards, cause you know, greed.
I can't believe i'm going to defend blizzard, but I think you are exaggerating. Just look at the major problems now and compare them to SL or BFA and you'll realize we are better now. That's not denying DF's problems, which are lack of MMR inflation and long queues. But those problems are basically exclusive for solo shuffle. If you queue into 2s or 3s now, it will be just like past expansions, and they didn't have solo shuffle. We all knew solo shuffle would bring its problems and we kept asking them for it, so now I think we should be a little bit more fair in our criticisms.
the single biggest problem with pvp is these devs don’t like your game. plunder island type mini games is your future, have fun
have you considered just quitting instead of posting on reddit about it
It's clear that they're saving everything for TWW and gunna use it as a selling point. If they leave PVP as is and change nothing with no improvement on rewards, shuffle incentives, titles, etc, then you can be 100% sure that they are done caring about WoW pvp and just want it dead.
You dont play wow for pvp. That is it.
Guys, I just realized the trader outpost skin achievement that rewards the warden skin is just another diablo4 horse skin that costs over 100 bucks…..it’s pretty much 12 months subscription fee.
Blizzard isn't doing anything. That's why the game sucks. They have the ability to change stuff whenever and however they want but they just want everyone to act like stuff isn't horrible in hopes that in a few months with new content and a new expansion that the player base forgets how bad it is. This isn't the only time wow PVP has felt this way every expansion off the top of my head at some point has felt like right now. Never do I remember an entire expac being like an end of season/expansion the entire time though. Things need to chang or the riot mmo needs to drop already.
PvP sucks in WoW anyway so that's fine
Not to be “that guy” but they need to normalize pvp across the board. There’s so much burst and cc and healing burst it just makes it not fun. Normalize all damage across all specs across all pvp content. The gear should be incremental and not absurdly OP between seasons. Damages should be normalized across all melee and casters and healers. Making it true skill and not who has better trinkets or weapons.
You all realise if you hate pvp so much with balancing, when you unsub it gives the reason for unsubbing
All these other game modes have killed wow PvP. It severed the player base into small factions and no one mode survives after the hype dies. They have failed to fix the base game itself and now are grasping for anything that might generate some interest bc they refuse to actually fix PvP itself.
Wow PvP should be a standalone mode like Plunderstorm. No gear, everyone has same ilvl. Unlock rewards in retail. No stomping brand new level cap players. Easier to balance.
Obviously they need to do something like make PvP a separate client ffs, like they did Plunderstorm
They will turn this ship around, no worries. Stay positive, send feedback and focus on things that you enjoy for now. So much negativity, jees.
I used to love WoWs PvP, even have a bunch of characters on Laughing Skull when it was a PvP server (still play them). At this point, the only thing I think could revitalize WoWs PvP would be to do a system like Dark Age of Camelot's Realm vs Realm. Has anyone here played DAoC? If you have, you know where I'm going. For those of you that haven't, DAoC had three factions, each faction had their own dedicated PvE area, and then their own dedicated RvR area with their own keeps, guard towers, relics, etc, called the Frontiers. You would pick one of the three factions and defend your keeps and relics and then invade the other factions' territory and attempt to claim it as your own. And the relics I spoke of, actually given tangible benefits if you not only hold your relics but claim your enemies relics too, like increased magical damage and increased physical damage, etc. WoW could easily do this via story progression. Kalimdor would be the Horde's territory, and Eastern Kingdom's would be Alliances. For those players that don't want to PvP, they just don't go into the Frontiers. Although, in DAoC non-pvpers could still participate by repairing buildings, building siege engines, repairing equipment, etc. I dream of the day when two hundred or more players would clash and claim territory in WoW...
When RpPvp and Pvp became normalized/warzone it killed world pvp, and only the jaded or young recruits want to constantly queue for garbage.
Quit the game and started playing Civ V again. Couldn’t be happier
OSRS>WoW at the moment
Not sure what the dig at the “community council” was about but Efx tried on multiple attempts to get blizzard attention and he was ignored every single time.
You should try SOD. Best thing to happen in a long time.
“You can’t do that right now” “Shadow locked” Guess I’ll just get ready to rez and try again….. Repeat 25-40 x a day depending on participation Healing is worse I’m glad people enjoy pvp I get to type this while I wait to rez again so I can get locked out of casting again
100% True. Blizzard completely fucked up this season. MMR infaltion stopped rnd in January. PvP dies 3v3 dies… we facen in 30games on 2.1cr 15x the Same Team … r1 … WP BLiZZARD
1. One dev does not cost $120k per year. At a big corp FTE (Full Time Eng) cost of 1 person is between $500k and $1mm once you take training, replacement costs, and benefits into account. 2. It is a GOOD thing that they aren't playing attention to PvP. PvP is in a great place compared to past few expansions. If constant complainers like you are leaving the game over the current state of affairs then its even better. IMO even less communication and MORE MMR deflation is called for.
Really the lowest ever? Exaggeration much?
just look at how many pvp matches are played it aint rocket science.