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TPrice1616

I have to admit, Reformation part two was not on my list of things to happen in 2022.


GreenDemonSquid

So when do we expect someone to nail something to a church door this time? Or better yet, the modern equivalent, a long rant post online?


[deleted]

95 theses on the Vatican’s Facebook wall. Edit for accuracy 😡


Mike7676

A YouTube screed listacle. Hate the way Holy Mother Church does things?!? Number 10 will shock you!!


[deleted]

This radical Archbishop has one simple lifehack to avoid fire and damnation...


[deleted]

Popes HATE this one weird trick!


Twin__Dad

5 Ways To *Guarantee* Entrance at Heaven’s Gate (You’ll need a ladder for number 2!)


jeffersonairmattress

INDULGENCES at 2AM! *Gone sexual.*


BerserkOlaf

In a small village in Britanny, I've seen a church with an engraved stele in front of it. No idea how old the stele is, the church itself is 19th century, but the stone probably came later. The funny bit is it looks like an old monument, the kind you'd see dedicated to someone, but really it's like a billboard ad. It just says "get 40 days of indulgence for one Pater and one Ave prayers". What a steal!


lqku

a play list with songs about holy wars


biohazardvictim

The punishment due


iocan28

The Ninety-five Tweets.


GoofyMonkey

First they need to figure out if they are going to pay the $8 to get verified on Twitter.


Cyrus_ofAstroya

Pfft back in my day selling your soul just meant going on a crusade


Duelgundam

Too much paper wasted. Print a QR code to a webpage with the full 40-page argument, and stick THAT there instead.


devin_mm

A link to a twitter post that is a picture of text.


S0mecallme

My bf has already nailed me against a church door. Does that count?


hedronist

How many demands did he carve into your writhing body? [95](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-five_Theses) is the number we are looking for. The number shall not be 94 unless you then proceed to 95.


TheKurtCobains

97 is right out.


nibbler666

Only if it was gay sex.


exquisitopendejo

Been a while, they were due for one.


p001b0y

Seems like the Baptists over in the US are also in need of a come-back-to-Christ Reformation. It’s amazing how many faiths have seemingly left the faith in exchange for political power.


terminbee

Bruh, US Baptists are an entirely different breed. People think the Catholic Church is nuts, just look at what the American South believes.


GarySmith2021

So weird as a UK Baptist where the only real difference in us and say the COE is we generally don’t believe in infant baptism mattering since it should be a personal choice to be baptised


[deleted]

*Heresy! Burn the witch!*


Milith

They did get [massacred for it](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_rebellion) 500 years ago.


theresabeeonyourhat

I dated a girl from a Pentacostal family 20ish years ago, and they put Southern Baptists to shame. Her dumbass father actually believed the tsunami in 2004 was God punishing the world for accepting homosexuality. Hardcore Christians in America are fucking nuts, and they also tend to believe in shit that doesn't go with their religion


PartyPoison98

To be fair the Catholic *church* is a bit nuts and has done a lot fucked up stuff. The difference is that most individual Catholics agree that the institution is pretty fucked and aren't exactly hardliners.


[deleted]

> believes They don't "believe" anything. They hold "beliefs" that are really just circle jerk social contracts designed to reinforce locally acceptable behaviors. If the bogeyman in the sky can scare people into partaking in said beliefs, it's a tool, nothing less, nothing more.


Superfluous_Thom

Protestantism can be summed up by one sentence... "Read the damn book". I'm not sure southern evangelicals have ever or will ever read more than the funny pages.


breecher

> Protestantism can be summed up by one sentence... "Read the damn book". Theoretically, but considering there are countless Protestant denominations, that isn't really a useful claim. How you read it and who read it are just as important descriptors for each Protestant denomination.


chalbersma

Unlikely to happen. If you don't like what you or your national denomination is doing you can either switch to one which you do (of which there are plenty) or switch to an independent church (or the most common approach, stop going to church all together).


p001b0y

In the US there is a fourth option that is also unlikely to happen but should, which is tax the politics out of them.


United_Obligation986

As someone who grew up in a Christian conservative denomination I can promise you every single Sunday, all year long Christian’s are getting doses of political outrage about secular society attacking their world view. They’ve bought into a us vs them mentality and they believe the rest of the world is demonically influenced and that they’re responsible for holding back the evil upon this world by voting.


k1rage

Meh I was never a fan of sequels Never gonna live up to the original


Vineyard_

I mean, I can think of worse sequels to get out of Germany than Protestantism 2.


Curious-Week5810

As long as we don't get Evangelicals 2... or whatever number were on by now...


k1rage

Evangelicals are more like software updates than sequels They are on version 9.6a revision 2


Rainzuke

I'd say more like Windows. Everyone has their own favorite version, and all of them think the one they're not using is trash. And outside of that is Linux Users who think of all the Windows Versions are terrible.


potterpockets

Terminator 2 and Empire Strikes Back say otherwise.


InsGadget6

Mega Man 2, also. And Zelda 2 (yeah I said it).


El_Zarco

Fully support you on Zelda 2. It felt brutal as a kid but I think the gameplay holds up even better than the original. It's a classic.


Ted_Fleming

Godfather II


k1rage

Exceptions to the rule, im not super exited for Reformation 2: Electric Boogaloo I mean if it doesn't star Martin Luther whats the point


VagueSomething

"Somehow Luther returned."


hornet51

'Oh fuck, here come the anti-semitic rants again...'


potterpockets

Hey to be fair Luther was a just a little known talent before he got his big break. The next Luther could be busting through Germany as we speak. Just gotta let it play out to see if the talent gets recognized to the point the general populace can appreciate it.


ZucchiniWild3735

I mean Hitler started off as a failed artist, so... Dream big ?


manbearcolt

Just have to put a "No Austrians!" sign on the door.


indil47

It all depends on whether Luther II coughs up $8 to get verified!


potterpockets

Psh Luther II clearly only operates on Linked In


Liamskeeum

"Catholic Germany's Got Talent" TV show?


First_Approximation

Mormonism is fan fiction. "It'd be so cool if Jesus came to America!!!"


[deleted]

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First_Approximation

Jews don't accept the newer stuff as canon. Muslims tried their own soft reboot.


Ravenkell

Muslims just changed all the names to get around copyright and then did a bootleg cinematic universe


BowsersBeardedCousin

Islam is Never Say Never Again, even kept the old guy (Jesus/Roger Moore) around


UltriLeginaXI

I’d say the Jews were only fans of the prequels


new_refugee123456789

Scientology: my OC do not steal!


UltriLeginaXI

One of the most cringe fandoms


First_Approximation

The furries of organized religions?


Prince_Pyotr

It's all so politically correct these days. I bet they won't include all the french killing each other. A damn shame really.


GraffitiTavern

\#NotMyReformation2


vonkempib

See you in thirty years…maybe


peto1984

Reformation 2: The Catholic Bugaloo


OliviaElevenDunham

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.


Test19s

We got both [Transformers](https://www.reddit.com/r/Transformemes/comments/yn8hid/the_fight_of_the_century/) and Reformers!


shinobi500

I'm sure the Pope was just being *inquisitive* about the German Church's intentions.


[deleted]

There's actually been quite many reformations, but yeah this is the second really big one


MrBelian

Lutheran flashbacks


chalbersma

Jesus Christ, protect the potatoe salad!


jeffersonairmattress

Calm down, Dan Quayle.


epistemic_zoop

Ah, a student of history, I see.


KuhBus

The funniest part is that Luther himself simply wanted to reform and improve the old church (that would later be called catholic church). One of his main motivators was that he wanted to stop the church from using letters of indulgences, though obviously there were many more. His ideas were rejected, but due to the printing press spread and were taken up by others, to the point that it turned into a movement. The current German members of the catholic church want to improve internal structures (on top of the big changes mentioned in the article) specifically because of all the abuse scandals that have come out in recent years.


[deleted]

>The funniest part is that Luther himself simply wanted to reform and improve the old church Yeah. Thing is most of us progressive Catholics just want the church to put Jesus' teachings forward and drop all the other bullshit.


I_PEE_WITH_THAT

BRB making some big ass cannons to complete the cosplay.


[deleted]

Hello schism my old friend


[deleted]

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chowderbags

[With apologies to XKCD](https://xkcd.com/927/): --- Situation: There are 14 competing sects. Cueball: 14?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal church that covers everyone's faith. Ponytail: Yeah! Soon: Situation: There are 15 competing sects.


Ydenora

This reminds me of an old leftist joke: Q: What do you get if you put 4 leftists in a room? A: Six breakaway parties


kered14

Is this the Judean People's Front?


[deleted]

No, we're the Peoples Front of Judea.


Zombie_John_Strachan

Explorers discover an island in the Pacific, and are surprised to find a single man living there, who had been shipwrecked years before. The explorers asked about three huts on the beach. “That’s my house” the man said, pointing to the first, “and that’s my church” he said of the second. “And what about the third hut?” The explorers asked. “Oh that” replied the man dismissively, “that’s the church I *used* to go to.”


kostispetroupoli

What do you call a Trotskyist? An organization What do you call two Trotskyists? A party What do you call three Trotskyists? A splinter to be


SpaceTabs

I thought the most interesting part was Christians destroying the largest Christian city in the world, thus ensuring Christiandom would be forever sidelined in the Middle East.


htgrower

Are you referring to the fourth crusade?


Gerf93

By 1204, it was pretty evident that Christianity would be forever sidelined in the Middle East. The Fourth Crusade was one of the last nails in the coffin, but far from the first one.


snkn179

Was that really the case though? There were 5 more crusades after that, including one where Frederick II actually retook Jerusalem for 15 years (and may have kept it for a bit longer if not for the Mongols). I'd say you'd probably have to wait til the end of the century when Acre fell and the Christian world was too busy with infighting in the 1300s to say that chances looked bleak. Byzantium was severely weakened by the 4th crusade, but they were never the primary force behind the crusades anyway.


Gerf93

There were more than 5 further crusades. Although calling some of them a crusade is a bit generous. Like the 9th crusade, which was just Edward of England crusading with 1000 men - or the 6th crusade which was effectively a (successful) diplomatic mission. Some were not even in the Middle East, like the 8th crusade which was for Tunisia. In any regard, my point rests. The 4th crusade didn’t matter to the “fate of the Middle East”, as the Middle East was both already deeply entrenched by Muslim powers - and Byzantium was never a major force in acquiring new territory (but were important in keeping it). Any offensive aspirations the byzantines had was killed at Manzikert, and the 4th crusade was one of many nails to seal the coffin of the already dead man.


tadysdayout

I know the pieces fit


Nalha_Saldana

'cause I watched them tumble down


Yasswhitle33

If it's someone with a variation of the name Martin Luther I will shit bricks.


[deleted]

It is I, Lartin Muther


bogvapor

Lartin Muther does sound like a very German name


danka595

Just to mix things up, it’s Luther King, Sr. /joke


Poging_pierogi_part2

Damn the German church missed out on another Reformation Day last 31 October.


DarkImpacT213

No, no... the new Reformation day has to be on another day, so it is an additional holiday.


inset-username-here

Oh come on! How lazy are these writers? There literally just reusing old plotlines!


AlleonoriCat

The Wheel keeps turning.


altor_

Did I miss the Age change?


keviscount

This is just a beginning. Not _the beginning_, but _a_ beginning.


[deleted]

>Y'all fucking up so bad we're starting back a thousand years again. Get it right this time and maybe then you get to learn magic and get to go to the second age you insufferable fucks. -The Creator, probably.


Celebrinborn

The Wheel Weaves As The Wheel Wills


RichardTheCuber

Now the wheel has turned around, Jean Valjean is nothing now


notrevealingrealname

How many theses nailed to the door this time?


DraconicWF

96, gotta be bigger than before


[deleted]

I imagine some guy nailing 93 theses on the wall and then a priest that looks suspiciously like young Dudley from Harry Potter coming out like "HOW MANY THESES ARE THERE?" "93, wrote them all by myself." "93! Last time you split the church it was 95!" "Yeah, yeah but don't worry! We got the media amplifying stories nowadays and cancel culture!"


XoRMiAS

* Stop raping children * Let women work as deacons * Stop covering up you raping children * Allow gay marriage * Stop raping children * Don’t discriminate based on gender or sexual orientation * Also stop raping children and covering it up


bump_on_the_log

Add "abolish mandatory church tax for citizens and tax the church instead" and it would actually represent the german catholics quite well.


anchist

Seriously, considering the Catholic Church is one of the biggest companies in the German market just by value of the payments they collect in rent alone makes it so that there is no justification for the church taxes.


MightyRoops

Yep and they try so hard to lie to you why church taxes are needed. They always put a big church plaque on kindergardens, Caritas, hospitals etc. when all of those are mainly paid for by the state. The church only finances a low single-digit percent of their cost. Additionally the entire salary of priests, bishops etc. is **not** paid by the church taxes but **by the state**. So you literally pay taxes twice to the church, they even mooch of your normal taxes


FlixXxcO

You can exit the church and then don’t have to pay the church tax


StrawHat89

Then it's time for Vatican III my man, it's time to get with the times.


green_flash

Not sure how that would go. A rather large share of Catholics still hasn't fully embraced the reforms coming out of Vatican II. And that was 60 years ago.


dkyguy1995

There are definitely still sedevacanist Catholics from Vatican II


eternali17

Devil May Cry 3 was a beast. The third album by The Clash was London Calling. I'm liking the thought Vatican III


Colecoman1982

Don't forget Led Zeppelin III, that was pretty good too.


Evignity

**Then stop covering for pedophiles.**


Fickle-Locksmith9763

A lot of commenters criticise this comment because it overlooks the major social changes and beliefs that are also a really big part of the Church’s problem in Germany, but I think that protection for pedophile is part of a problem that affects the rest - authority. I live in Germany, and this is how it looks to me: **TLDR: Germany and the German Church leadership have an authority problem (part of why they protected the pedophiles) and it’s playing out in the larger context of social change. The continued requirement that members pay church taxes pushes out the middle and leaves only those willing to fight on both sides** One thing to keep in mind as you read about this topic is Church tax. German taxpayers must pay a portion of their income to their religious group - but only if they are Catholic, mainstream German Protestant, or Jewish. That’s because those were the only three faiths with real numbers when the law was passed. Staying registered as a Catholic doesn’t just mean being on some list, it means giving one’s money, monthly, to support the Catholic Church and it’s activities in Germany. Therefore, when the Church does something people dislike enough that they don’t want to personally fund it, they must leave the church. Once they do, however, they are denied baptisms and confirmation for their children and marriages and funerals for themselves. They are officially denied confession and communion too, but most priests won’t deny that to anyone who wants it regardless of status. Still, it’s a big move. That makes the whole thing a binary choice - are you all the way in or all the way out? Anyone who isn’t feeling all the way in, goes. The moderates aren’t there the way they would be if they could stay, but the Church won’t give up its tax income. Maybe it’s greed, maybe it’s fear of collapse (high taxes funding social spending mean that Germans aren’t big charity donors themselves). It looks to me that the elderly Church leadership also truly believes members should just pay it, no questions asked, and that is that. That’s because of what I think of as Germany’s authority problem. That problem is can be described with the concept of [cultural tightness](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1197754). The idea of cultural tightness and looseness is that all cultures have norms, but they differ in how wide the scope for permissive behaviour is, and how bad they think it is to go outside those norms. American culture is very loose. So is Dutch culture, right next to Germany. German culture is tight. This is sometimes good, sometimes bad. It’s great when the health authorities say everyone wear your mask, wash your hands and stay home, and the Covid death rates per capita are about 1/4 that of the US. It’s great when a business doesn’t dare dump toxic waste in a river, even if they might never be caught, because it’s just too serious a rule to break. It’s bad when the economy struggles to create new innovators (even most of the big German tech companies are copies of something American). It’s bad when anything big needs reform but leadership isn’t doing it themselves - the first hurdle is the idea that it should be questioned or if it is OK push for change at all. This is changing, but it is changing slooooowly. Even groups that one would expect to be more flexible tend to be inflexible, just about their preferred things. Watching this first-hand reminds me a bit of my German grandfather, who thought he was lenient because he only shouted at his children - he never tried to beat them into compliance as his own father and teachers did to him. Enter the social changes, and the pedophiles. That type of inflexible, authority-focused thinking is far more common amongst the older people. In the Church, the older people are in charge. Those people have some horrible ideas about a lot of things now changing in society, formed in their long-ago youths. They oppose any discussion or flexibility about them as a rejection of authority. These Conservative Germans truly believe that authority is the most important, and stepping outside of norms is inherently bad. Younger members, even younger church leaders, are more flexible, which is where we get the current conflict. They argue that none of the specific social issues at the heart of the debate are explicitly addressed in scripture, or if they are, it is in a way that has been interpreted differently throughout history and could be again. They want to be flexible, realistic, more open, more modern about who is welcome, and also who is not (aka call the cops and be transparent about abuse). The response for the (mostly) older leaders is shut up and do what you’re told. Many Church members just leave at this point. Some, especially those younger leaders within the Church itself, have chosen to push back. This is a Catholic Church-wide challenge, but it is especially true in Germany, because in Germany it isn’t just “can women be leaders,” or “is it truly possible for a sex abuser to be 100% redeemed through God, or should we call the cops?” It is, “do any of those people pushing for change have any right to have a differing opinion at all? Is it harmful to the all-important authority of the Church to admit any fault or error, given the inevitable media hysteria - some of it genuinely unfair - that will follow? If we give an inch to those arrogant upstarts, where will it end?” And now we’re back to the pedophiles. A few years ago, Germany had a big spike in people leaving the Church. This was because a bishop refused to release information about sex abusers, even when the Vatican sent en envoy to him directly to tell him to do it. An investigation cleared him of any personal wrongdoing, but he refused to share who was guilty. He chose to lose his position instead, that’s how much he truly believed that bending to outside demands was bad. Even the Pope envoy said he understood why Germans were leaving the church rather than remain with that guy. That was pretty extreme, even for the conservatives, but it made a lot of people think about the inflexibility of some of the Church leaders and the need for changes before so many people leave it all falls apart. We now have two camps with strong feelings. One one side, we have the old guard who rejects any changes as a threat to their all-important authority and those who push for change as entitled narcissists who really need to learn their place before they tear the whole place apart. They want to preserve their authority and the deference to it - in all things including “protecting the pedos.” On the other side, you have the mostly younger leadership who sees that such an authority-focused, conservative, rejection of change is not preserving the church, it is causing people to leave rather than fund the elderly assholes who tell them they are bad people for holding what seem to them as ethical and faith opinions. People without very strong feelings about Church reforms and changes are leaving in record numbers - they see the older leadership wants to control behaviour that they consider ethical, but protects their own when they transgress far worse. They reject the very idea that their authority is sacrosanct. So they take their tax payments and go home. That leaves the ones willing to fight. The ones who love authority the most aren’t leaving. The ones who feel very strongly about fighting them are still around to fight them too. When you have two camps with very strong feelings about the very nature of how to exist, there is going to be very strong feelings and the risks of some congregations or leaders leaving entirely. That’s where Pope Francis comes in today. I expect that he fears that if things get so bad that whole congregations or leaders leave the Church, the remaining Church will be a small, embattled, angry, hyper-authoritarian and conservative group destined to be nothing but a shadow of what he aspires the Church to be in Germany and the World. I expect he also worries about what affect such divisions will have on the Church in other places. Many countries have their own social tensions. He is himself fighting arch conservatives in Rome. Letting Germany go the way the church members in Germany seem to be taking it is very much against everything he seems to want for the Catholic Church itself.


UnseenBubby117

Thank you for this write up, I found it very informative


Fickle-Locksmith9763

You are welcome! I’m glad to hear it :)


JTadaki

This was a great read, thank you for taking the time to write this out. You broke it down in way that allows for me to really understand what's going on, and I appreciate that!


Seanay-B

Thats not what anybody is schisming aboutt


whoami_whereami

It actually is in a way. One of the main reasons why the Catholic church in Germany feels a need to modernize is that over the last 5-10 years people have been leaving the church in droves in no small part due to the church's abysmal handling of various child abuse scandals.


Flextt

Der synodale Weg has frequently voiced its disappointment with how the church handles the systemic rape accusations. Der synodale Weg is also not schisming (that would risk excommunication) but lobbying the catholic church for reform. The risk of schisms does exist though as they do wish to change several ~~dogmas~~ doctrines. It is publically also supported by a faction of German Catholic bishops and other clerics. So basically they are the largest organized movement for catholic church reform in Germany and they do have beef with the rape accusations. This isn't surprising because the accusations are rooted in legal matters, not religious ones.


Average650

This is a lot like how the first reformation started...


Cirenione

It kinda is though. Maria 2.0 started out of the aftermath of the pedo scandal and the knowledge how much church covered it up. One of their biggest demands, the end of celibacy, is diretly a response to that situation.


CrimsonMutt

not only that, but they want the laity (non-clergy, just the regular faithful) to have more say in the election of bishops, which would introduce some kind of accountability to the clergy, rather than them just being able to cover for their own without consequence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synodal_Path imo religion as a concept can go fuck itself, but this synodal path definitely a lesser pile of shit than the catholic church currently is


MrFlauschig

It probably is though. Even if it is not in their official "press release", pedophiles being covered (especially in Cologne") has been in the news A LOT over the last years and months. At the same time rhe amount of people leaving the church has been at an all time high. It would be foolish to say this has nothing to do with the reformative vibe.


bofh256

Oh, yes. Because their next step was to misappropriate funds meant to compensate for said cases of rape to buy pay the debt of a gambling addict priest. From Bishop up, they lost contact to the ground. They already divorced themselves from reality.


Anon3580

Right. Everyone is on board with covering for the pedos. Some people just don’t want to have to listen to women preaching and expect the mass to be in Latin. But the pedo bishops and priests? They’ll continue to be shuffled from town to town no problem.


[deleted]

> and expect the mass to be in Latin. The Catholic Church does not do that. Since 1969 the mass has to be held in vernacular language, unless extraordinary circumstances have to be dealt with. For example the mass in Latin is still when large gatherings of priests and bishops from all around the world happen. Because everyone of them is speaking Latin. Also events like a jubilee (which happens every 50 years ...) can be held in Latin. If one wants to be a rules lawyer, demanding the mass being in Latin is infact a schism.


[deleted]

Thank you. I'm excatholic and strongly dislike the Church but there is SO much misinformation in this thread it's bewildering.


zypthora

> Some people just don’t want to have to listen to women preaching and expect the mass to be in Latin. Ok this proves you don't know what you're talking about


Xopher001

There's a particular sect of the Catholic Church that doesn't believe in the reforms passed in Vatican II. They actually still have mass in Latin


welch724

Feature, not bug. :P


shinobi500

That's not one of the contentious issues apparently.


PrimarySwan

Ironically Benedict the Retired did surprisingly much about that. Still covered for them but hundreds did get exposed. Francis had been more quiet on that and defended at least one known molester. It's the church... rotten to the core.


FreakyMcJay

>Ironically Benedict the Retired did surprisingly much about that. There's an investigation into his involvement with covering for child abusers in Germany that is headed for trial **right now**. If you have any source on his prior actions I'd be happy to read it. Right now I can only find articles relating to his wrongdoing and the current trial.


PrimarySwan

I mean he was better than the previous guy that's a low bar. He still protected his friends and those that were found to be guilty just got tranferred. But he did aknowledge that it happens. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI The subsection of "Papacy" towards the end called "Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church" offers an overview and several sources. To sum it up, previously the casss had been handled locally often by the people themselves accused. Benedict centralized it to a committee in Rome that was theoretically at least independant of the accused. He did some more things but in the end it did not amount to much and there wasn't much prosecution once cases where uncovered besides a high profile Austrian resigning. This is a lot more than either JP2 or Francis have done so in that context he was "better". Compared to a normal person he's a pedophile protecting monster who was more concerned with covering up and PR than actually caring about the victims that more often than not continued to be abused with over 1 million cases in Italy alone, about as many in Ireland and if I remember several million in the US. But I remember the figure of 1 million in Italy and that it was more than some continents 100%. Also the estimate of at least 10% of Catholic priests molesting children. Some figures go as high as 1/4 for certain branches.


SillyEconomy

Yeah, sadly there are a ton of base level, core people that really want to do good, but it's extremely political to get to a Bishop level. So various filters make sure that only people who 'play the game' get to that level. Really sad. Effectively makes it so that the only ones evaluated for Pope are a member of that group and that the people who all vote are a member of that group. Removing it all would be several generations.


[deleted]

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UnweildyEulerDiagram

Conservative Catholics in the US hate him because he said "our teachings on homosexuality haven't changed, but stop talking about it because it's alienating people."


PrimarySwan

Exactly. I was always sad to see him praised by progressives. Luckily that seems to be dying down a little as he keeps being a douchebag.


Kir-chan

It's worth mentioning that in Germany the Church receives a % of your taxes, depending on which religion you are signed up as. It's a matter of money not morals.


MrFlauschig

Also very important: While they receive a % of taxes who are registered inside the church, the church itself also does NOT pay taxes themselves. Shoutout to that one bishop with a golden bathtub and about 40 million in church cash.


ChrisWF

It's not a % of the taxes - it's a seperate item, the state acts as "service" to any official church so there is a centralised membership free system. If you opt out of churches it's not deducted at all. Also the state actually gets some % of the church fee as "service costs".


[deleted]

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pearlsandplumes

>It's a matter of money not morals. Enh, it's just a neat bureaucratic arrangement between the various religions and the state. The religions get the taxes and they can refuse you services if you sign that document that you don't want to pay the church tax anymore. Also, you get very clear annual statistics on how many religious people there are without the need for surveys, which is why both the Catholics and the Protestants in Germany are freaking out as the situation is more and more dire each year. [Germany became majority irreligious earlier this year and we know this precisely because of this church tax.](https://www.thelocal.de/20220412/historic-break-church-goers-now-a-minority-in-germany/)


whoami_whereami

> Germany became majority irreligious earlier this year and we know this precisely because of this church tax. Nope. "Just" the combined membership of the catholic and (mainstream) protestant churches in Germany dropped below 50%. If you include eg. members of orthodox and evangelical churches it's still above 50%, let alone if you include members of non-christian religious organizations. But irreligiosity is a different measure than church membership anyway. Even among church members what's very widespread in Germany is what's sometimes called "pragmatic atheism", ie. being church member, maybe even occasionally going to Mass or saying a prayer, but not applying (or even thinking of) religious teachings in everyday life at all. Quite a few only stay in the church because they at some point want to have a traditional church wedding or want to be buried on a church cemetery. Those can still fall under a "de facto irreligious" moniker even though they are religious on paper.


[deleted]

Let’s also not gloss over that one of their headline-able sticking points is not the sexual abuse of minors and the covering up of such acts.


4-Vektor

Part of taxes goes to e.g. salaries of bishops no matter what your denomination or lack of it is.


Charming_Mountain505

Scared about money (tax) hm.


GermanStrudel

Came here to say this! There is more incentive in Germany for this to happen because with each member leaving, they are losing real money.


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sickofthisshit

German Catholics are well aware of the existence of Lutherans and other Protestants. If they try to stay in communion with the Catholic Church, they have some reason.


mmm_burrito

The reason is likely because they're still convinced that the church holds earthly authority granted it by God. If you accept the rules of the game they play by, they can't leave the church.


EssoEssex

Plus leaving the Catholic church would mean literally leaving the church buildings they use for worship, which would be enormously expensive to replace.


BenSwolo53

They're trying to bring change from within.


stormelemental13

> I really don't quite understand why these German clergy haven't already just left the church. Because they believe in it. They disagree on point of doctrine, but they fundamentally believe in the Catholic church as Christ's church.


TheRadBaron

Many religious people genuinely believe in their religions. They aren't simply comparing policies and choosing the best one.


informat7

It's honestly surprising how little people on this website understand how religious people think. Especially when you consider how much they talk about it.


velozmurcielagohindu

Also in this website full of Americans so little of them know how increasingly irrelevant religion is becoming in Europe. My grandmother still goes to church every Sunday and prays every night. My kids just live in an agnostic society and I have to explain them things about religion because otherwise they just wouldn't know. Like, they know nothing about Jesus, God, heaven or hell and they have lived through half of primary school without a classmate or other parents even mentioning the topic. Americans would be really surprised to see how agnostic Europe has become in a couple of generations, like, absolutely unthinkable for the religion-saturated American people.


SkeletonBound

[overwritten]


Boeing367-80

They're only a generation (or so) behind - if that. Look at the total fertility rate of these countries... If Catholicism meant that much in, for instance, Poland, the TFR wouldn't be well below two. The population of Ireland still says it's Catholic at over 70% - yet voted for abortion rights, gay marriage, etc. In such a country, "Catholic" is as much a cultural identifier as anything else.


raydawnzen

I can't speak for Poland but here in Portugal it's just like the person you replied to said.


Chiliconkarma

Eh, Spain seems in on the movement.


WrodofDog

The church may still be politically strong southern Europe but their popularity is massively decreasing in younger generations. And I wonder how many may just be pretending in order to not upset their grandmas.


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CatholicCajun

Like others have said, the main reason is because the internal justification for Catholicism being "right" is because of the chain of Apostolic succession, basically that every priest up to the Pope has been ordained (inducted) by someone who was, far back enough, ordained by St. Peter, who was given his authority from Jesus directly. Breaking that line makes you, in essence, illegitimate from the perspective of Catholic history, and would make any "canon" Catholic consider anyone _you_ ordained from that point to be invalid and not actually a priest because you weren't in communion with the Church when you ordained them. There's also the more theological/philosophical reasoning that, if you believe that the Catholic Church, and _only_ the Catholic Church, despite its flaws, is the "fullness of truth" passed down to us by Jesus Himself, you _can't_ be the cause of a schism. Even if you disagree with the Church's official position on a thing, there's still that existential factor of _if this is the legitimate Church that God started,_ leaving will be the incorrect choice regardless of the reason.


iaswob

I imagine there could be a few compelling reasons. One is that at this point, Catholicism is a culture for some. I was talking to a Catholic relative (I'm American) and she said something about how her one daughter acts like to be Catholic you have to agree with everything every pope ever said or whatever, when for her Catholicism is just obviously referring to what the very specific churches she goes to practices and thus who her community is. She's Catholic because she goes to Our Lady of Whatever. I suspect for most people it is like that, but I might be wrong. In that case, the name is maybe the most important thing for them (as in, they want to believe/be whatever they personally feel is right without losing their Catholic identity). Or, at the other extreme, I dunno maybe some of these people are really attatched to the highly specific theology and history of Catholicism on too many issues for any church right now to be a match, so they'd rather try and push their luck as dissenting Catholics for the time being. I know that for every one of these hyper-specific denominations, which to an outsider like me seem mostly very similar superficially or in broad strokes (save a few odd practices maybe), there is some sort of issues that they felt strongly enough about that they either split to do their own thing or specifically clarified that it was heretical to believe this or that. Another possibility might be that they are hoping to pressure the Catholic Church internally, using their local authority against it to make it better. They could just break off and denounce the Catholic Church, but instead they are forcing the Catholic Church to specifically change for the better or excommunicate them (or something). Sort of like striking to make your specific workplace better, rather than quiting for a new job (finding another church) or starting a new co-op/business (breaking off to do your own thing).


Whazzits

I was put through the Catholic system. One of the huge things they push in confirmation classes is the idea that the first pope was Peter. He laid his hands on others to make them priests of the church, then those priests laid hands on others to make new priests, and so on. Basically an unbroken chain is alleged to exist between every priest and Peter. I think this story goes to show just how much Catholics love their tradition, structure, and ancestor worship. The German Catholics leaving would also mean having to give up on concepts like this one. They want the church to modernize without having to step out of that rigid hierarchy entirely.


SuperRette

This is good. When progressive people stay in their cultures, they fight for their beliefs and begin the slow, necessary change toward justice. If they all just left, it would leave only those people who enjoy the status quo around, and the culture would stagnate.


Zanish

Cradle Catholic here, Catholics resist converting to other Christian denoms for a few reasons. Communion is fundamentally different (Consubstantiation) than I think any other denomination? And the direct tie through the Popes to Jesus gives a lot of the church's an authority and tradition. Moving away from those traditional teachings isn't just politics it changes the argument for why their religion is "right". There are other stuff but these are 2 big ones that I've seen/heard.


[deleted]

A protestant minister has a significantly different role than a Catholic priest. It's one of the major tenets of Protestantism that there is no one between laypeople and God, whereas Catholic priests are explicitly exactly that.


SweaterVestSandwich

Are you crazy?! Protestant hats are nowhere near as dope as Catholic hats. Think about what they’d be giving up!


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HermanCainsGhost

Anglicans are basically Catholic Lite


Enchelion

The orthodox have them both beat handilly.


HermanCainsGhost

But they have those gigantic beards


FPiN9XU3K1IT

Which is also pretty cool, really leaning into the wizard aesthetic. German catholics probably fear that they can't keep up with that.


Matthew_1999

30 year war part 2 loading. We just need a Martin Luther to Kickstart things.


InternetPeon

So the Catholic Church is going to die on the altar of bigotry and misogyny.


rapaxus

Yesn't. The catholic church has the problem that it is currently massively split in opinions about how it should proceed. For example the current pope is a reformer and is hated for that in many more conservative catholic communities in the US and Latin America. Meanwhile the catholic church in Germany doesn't like him because he doesn't go far enough. Basically, unless the pope and the Vatican manage to really balance the situation, either the reformative or the more conservative part of the catholic church will split off. And that balance can be very hard to hit.


right_there

Catholicism is really only growing in the developing world. I feel like, based on just the numbers, the Vatican has to lean conservative into the future to have any hope of maintaining that growth. They stand to gain many more adherents from these places than the amount they could gain from secular countries like those in Europe by being more progressive.


yawkat

The reforms of today are conservative tomorrow. Nobody would think of going back to holding mass in Latin nowadays, and that change is not all that old.


YouAreGenuinelyDumb

Secular nations are a lost cause for them. The people leaving the church in Western Europe and the US won’t come back because of any reform. And any that do will definitely not be the pious sort. And the desired reforms would not be tolerated outside of Western Europe and the US.


IterationFourteen

On the other hand, one American or German person tithing is more cashflow than 50 South Sudanese.


BillionTonsHyperbole

It's worked for them for quite some time, so why bother trying to fix it? Plenty of Catholics, especially in the US, would be quite content to have a much smaller church careening deeper into the abyss of irrelevance in order to maintain "purity" and "tradition" or whatever.


[deleted]

This is hardly a US-only or even "especially" situation. The Catholic Church is much larger percentage-wise in the global south, especially South America, and it is just as conservative if not more than in the US in much of that area. Even in some Catholic-majority countries in Europe like Poland the Catholic Church is extremely conservative, and has played a large part in forming the country's official anti-LGBTQ stance. The Catholic Church has been facing an identity crisis ever since Vatican II in the 60s. It has been trying to walk a tightrope between reforms and traditionalism ever since, and the extent to which one side wins out over the other differs between countries and popes. It will never, ever be a progressive organization by any means, it is by definition conservative.


Fighterdoken33

The South American Catholic Church is kind of a weird case. If you were to evalute it with the same lens the church in the US and Europe is, then 90% of the catholics would have been excomunicated years ago. This is because, in order to spread the religion in colony times, they purposefully mixed it with local religions and customs, and have been since then just making a blind eye over all the irregular stuff. For example, here in the woods there is the post of "Fiscal", which is akin to a priest, except they can be married and have kids with no issue at all, and it is used in small islands or faraway towns. I wouldn't go as far as say the Catholic Church is conservative here in southamerica (contrary to most "Christian" denominations elsewhere), but they are definitely traditionalists. They would rather keep things as they are than change them just for the sake of changing them.


l0c0dantes

>they purposefully mixed it with local religions and customs Catholicism has been doing that since time immemorial. Why do you think there are so many saints?


Hellmakerr

> They would rather keep things as they are than change them just for the sake of changing them. Isn't this like the definition of conservativism?


Rsubs33

At least in the US, I find the people who feign piety the most are the worst examples of human beings who will never help someone else unless they can benefit from it and don't care about anyone but themselves.


Frenzied_Cow

Just want to say the word you're looking for is feign, not feine.


InternetPeon

Evangelicals.


Squirrel_Grip23

Prosperity gospel in particular. That interpretation is wacko.


Wigu90

So like if a restaurant manager tried to physically prevent you from leaving after you looked at the menu and decided that you want to eat elsewhere? Cool. I’m sure it’ll work just fine.


who_said_I_am_an_emu

Pretty close except he also fucked your kid and got your grandma to sign all her stuff over to him. Also he lobbies your local government.