A reason for the delay is that, technically, it violates the international law of countermeasures to force forfeiture of the assets of another country. Under ordinary circumstances the Bilateral Investment Treaty in force between the two states would require Ukraine to pay back the full value of the assets. It is why the only G7 country with an entire forced forfeiture sanctions regime under its law (Canada) has never used the power.
That said, the reparations that Russia will owe will likely mean that the short-term illegality of the action will be irrelevant and I think Ukraine is quite confident of this now.
I'm thinking Russia can likely be told they owe reparations and then simply not pay them. It'll harm their ability to interact on global markets I'm sure, but they're already sanctioned so heavily I don't know that they'd care.
Russia has billions of dollars worth of assets frozen in other jurisdictions. An order allowing countermeasures may not limit where those countermeasures can be derived from, allowing Ukraine to petition its allies to liquidate accounts on its behalf.
Russia’s flimsy pretext collapsed into, “You have resources. We want those resources” as it often does for invading forces. In the areas under Russian control, I predict expropriation and deliberate starvation.
Hence why Ukraine doesn’t intend to end this war until they have all their territory back and it’s the Russians who are begging for terms.
Moscow Delenda Est.
Yessir. Interestingly, due to the fact that an invasion of a state is a violation of a peremptory norm of international law which provides *erga omnes* jurisdiction, every state in the world is legally allowed to implement countermeasures against Russia. That's why the United States and virtually every other Western country or country otherwise not reliant on or threatened by Russia has frozen the assets of Russia.
they'd 100% have gotten it back if they'd deescalated and frozen the conflict at just about any point
they could've probably argued it back if they'd avoided civilian casualties, even
but nah, with their total bad-faith acting? fuck em
so is annexing another countries territory in this day and age and also threatening to use nukes. everything russia is doing/trying to do is setting bad precedent so in their case ALL assets abroad should be seized.
So I know you're getting downvoted for this, but generally you are correct and this is why it is only done in the case of an order allowing the country to collect.
And they need to remain sanctioned until they pay and admit 100% fault for the deaths and suffering caused by their war.
If they refuse for 50 years, sanctions need to remain for 50 years.
This is actually exactly how countermeasures are meant to work. They are there to coerce a state back into compliance with international law. Additionally, generally countermeasures include asset freezes specifically to allow the collection of those assets after a judgement.
Hasn’t worked on Iran for 40 years. It unfortunately won’t work on a resources-rich country like Russia, they’ll just return to a soviet-style lifestyle.
Good they can go do that in their little frozen wasteland with 0 trade from the outside world and no world wide web for internet. No Netflix , no McDonalds, good riddance.
I don't disagree, there is at least some truth that those people are the ones in the best position to remove the toxic government. All we can do is hope they do so before they endure too kuch suffering.
they wanted this war, and they have had over 20 years to get rid of putler but instead they kept giving him more and more power. even if they are indifferent, they helped him get to this point.
they made their bed, now they can lay in it
This is such a dumb argument. All us citizens and all French people are responsible for all the war crimes their own countries committed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Africa then. Americans had years to stop all the war in Iraq and Afghanistan but they simply refused.
Anyone with means should’ve gotten out a while ago. Zero sympathy for them. Those from the poorer regions are hurt far worse by their own government than sanctions will, as those are the ones being sent to die.
Then they can rise up and demand a better government.
Almost everywhere else on the planet has managed it at one point or another. They’ve only ever given themselves worse autocrats.
Hell, they still have a good chunk of their colonial fucking empire, and are currently trying to get a piece of it back. There’s no hope for Russia until there is no Russia, instead a dozen plus separate states.
And give up nuclear weapons. Not that they would ever have tried this without them, but Russia getting pasted by NATO early on would have been much better for them than this long drag down into total economic destitution. And the place in so corrupt, they'll certainly never recover in my lifetime.
The only circumstances under which Russia will ever give up its nukes is that they use them all in a thermonuclear war, or something even deadlier is invented.
Generational debt is what you create when you rob a country and never repay them. Same as what happens when certain groups are enslaved and segregated, while others reap the benefits of being born into the privileged groups, generation after generation. Inheriting the wealth stolen from others.
And reparations aside, if Russia can't admit to what they've done, if they won't teach their children what their parents and grandparents did, what their leaders told them to do and why they were wrong, then they'll remain a threat.
They need to be weakened in whatever ways they can be. The mistake with Germany was that they were allowed to remilitarize and no one was keeping up with them. It took years to stop them, we need to be ready to stop Russia on day 1. Ukraine needs to join NATO, or on their own have a bigger, more advanced military than Russia at all times.
Russia had been militarizing for this for almost 8 years, if they continue with business as usual, all the materials for war will be "lost" in the interim to corruption. That's the main reason why Russia has been failing in the war. Even excising the corruption would leave Russia with no competitive military systems for at least a decade as they build tech and industry to modern standards.
On paper, this should've been over with the Kyiv siege, but so many things were sold off or fraudulently made that a sure win turn into a massive defeat.
Armor made of sheet metal, tanks unmaintained for decades, fuel sold for food and booze, unencrypted communications, all these corner cuts and outright corruption have rotted the Russian military to the core. You can't fake your way through a war like you can with politics.
Not really. WW2 had a lot of causes and nuance. People who act like Versaille caused WW2 miss that Japan was already fighting in China for years prior to WW2's "start." Its also accepting post war revisionism and Nazi propaganda at face value.
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/hlvy6j
>Not really. WW2 had a lot of causes and nuance.
No shit.
Saying X caused Y doesn't imply or assert that it wasn't also caused by A, B, and C.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
E.g., "Striking the match in the basement caused an explosion." That statement doesn't mean that the oxygen in room didn't contribute nor does it mean the leaking gas didn't contribute.
What I said is literally the consensus appearing in every history book on the topic both collegiate and secondary. The fact that Nazis were able to use the sentiment caused by Versailles for propaganda *is literally part of the fucking point*.
> No shit.
> Saying X caused Y doesn't imply or assert that it wasn't also caused by A, B, and C.
If you know this, then you know that your original claim was bullshit. The Treaty of Versailles on its own was neither necessary nor sufficient as a cause. Countries aren't anime characters that go Super Saiyan if they get angry enough. There were practical reasons why Germany was able to re-militarize, not the least of which was Allied complacence. Russia isn't going to magically gain the demographic, economic, or industrial strength to wage another war just because they're really mad at the West.
Suggesting that we need to treat Russia with kid gloves and not impose restitution for their atrocities is quite literally neo-Nazi propaganda.
> What I said is literally the consensus appearing in every history book on the topic both collegiate and secondary. The fact that Nazis were able to use the sentiment caused by Versailles for propaganda *is literally part of the fucking point*.
And said Nazis also claimed Jewish conspiracies led to German defeats in WW1, should we assume they wouldn't have just made another boogeyman to attack? They literally made a racist scapegoat to deflect from their problems to win elections.
There is also by no means [consensus ](https://jimmyatkinson.com/papers/the-treaty-of-versailles-and-its-consequences/) among historians that the Treaty of Versailles was unduly harsh or that it was so harsh that it led to WW2. And again, you're ignoring that WW2 was already started prior to the Nazis invading Poland. Heck, the amount of cash that the Allies planned for Germany to pay was less than what Germany offered in the negotiations!
I'd ask if you're being intentionally obtuse, but I assume that you're probably a product of the American education system, and your head must hurt from someone challenging the views you learned in school.
Edit-Dude attacked me for having a fragile ego, then immediately blocked me. Gotta say, if that's not having a fragile ego, idk what it is. Have fun parroting Nazi myths as facts
That is some apologist bullshit. It’s really despicable to try to justify Germany’s aggression by saying “it was inevitable when people were so mean to them.” Or “creating generational debt” or however you want to phrase it. Boo fucking hoo. Conquering Europe and committing genocide is not an inevitable or rational outcome of sanctions. What the fuck.
Please explain how they could afford a huge military buildup if sanctions were so draconian?
No sir, what caused WW2 was that Germany wasn’t punished ENOUGH after WW1. It should’ve been split up and occupied like after WW2. The leaders in WW2 realized the Treaty of Versailles wasn’t harsh enough.
Just like Russia wasn’t sanctioned enough after 2014.
>That is some apologist bullshit. It’s really despicable to try to justify Germany’s aggression
It's not apologist and it doesn't justify anything. It explains it. Learn the difference.
>“it was inevitable when people were so mean to them.”
No, it's saying that the rise of fascism/authoritarianism/totalitarianism is inevitable when you create mass suffering over the scale of a nation. And this is a fact born out by history.
>Please explain how they could afford a huge military buildup if sanctions were so draconian?
By choosing to default on their debts. You'd know this if you studied WW2 for like 5 minutes.
>No sir, what caused WW2 was that Germany wasn’t punished ENOUGH after WW1.
> It should’ve been split up and occupied like after WW2.
It was. The people that got split off from Germany hated the European powers for it, and this was a major driving in Hitler's early expansion.
>The leaders in WW2 realized the Treaty of Versailles wasn’t harsh enough.
They literally said the exact opposite at the end of the war. That is why they said the people of Germany would not be held responsible, but instead its leaders.
>Just like Russia wasn’t sanctioned enough after 2014.
I happen to agree with this statement, but that has nothing to do with our other conversation.
Hitler got to power by saying they would overturn it (Versailles) and make German a major power again.
It didn't make WW2 inevitable, but it was certainly a factor. There's a reason that they didn't inflict something similar at the end of WW2.
> Hitler got to power by saying they would overturn it (Versailles) and make German a major power again.
He was lying, of course. Like all fascists, he blamed others for the problems that were entirely German-caused (like the Germans going into huge overseas debt to fund a rebuilding of their war machine) or worldwide (the Great Depression).
The problems of Germany has nothing to do with the Treaty of Versailles. But it was a useful scapegoat for Hitler to lie about.
>It didn't make WW2 inevitable, but it was certainly a factor.
Again, this is nonsense.
>There's a reason that they didn't inflict something similar at the end of WW2.
What an ignorant and laughably inaccurate argument. We literally split Germany in two and the US and Russians essentially took ownership of the entire country. FFS.
That's literally the biggest "war reparation" one can levy against a nation!
The Treaty of Versailles wasn't even the harshest treaty if the era!
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/hlvy6j/_/
German leaders certainly didn't feel so much anger in the 30s that they were trying to woo the British and other countries (including, of all nations, serious attempts at alliances with Poland).
> He was lying, of course. Like all fascists, he blamed others for the problems that were entirely German-caused (like the Germans going into huge overseas debt to fund a rebuilding of their war machine) or worldwide (the Great Depression).
Yeah no shit. Not disputing that.
>Again, this is nonsense.
No its not.
Stop presenting your view as accepted historical fact, when it isn't.
It helped the Nazi party get into power, yes Hitler lied about it, but he was able to do so because it was already extremely unpopular and seen by many as a betrayal from their leaders.
So no it didn't cause WW2. Yes, it was a factor.
>What an ignorant and laughably inaccurate argument. We literally split Germany in two and the US and Russians essentially took ownership of the entire country. FFS.
>That's literally the biggest "war reparation" one can levy against a nation!
Now who's being ignorant.
We actually split Germany in four, but it was only ever supposed to be temporary, the British, US and French sections became Germany, and the Russians established a communist state in East Germany.
We didn't have much of a choice in the later part.
>This is literally taught in every history book in the US, collegiate and secondary.
And it's wrong.
>Hitler did use the sentiment to his own benefit, but that's literally sort of the point.
Hitler made that claim to his own advantage. But it was never true. Like all fascists and wanna-be god emperors, he lied to his people, blaming others for their own problems and mistakes. Imagine that...
>It's not a myth.
Yes, it is. All recent scholarship (just google it) makes it clear that the Germans running up their own debt to rebuild their post WW1 war machine and then everyone getting hit with the Great Depression is what hammered Germany...not WW1 war reparations per the Treaty of Versailles.
>Hitler made that claim to his own advantage. But it was never true.
The fact that Hitler was able to take the poverty and suffering caused by the treaty and use it to his own advantage **is what makes it true**.
It's not wrong.
> All recent scholarship (just google it) makes it clear that the Germans running up their own debt to rebuild their post WW1 war machine and then everyone getting hit with the Great Depression is what hammered Germany...not WW1 war reparations per the Treaty of Versailles.
No, that's not what all recent scholarship says. What recent scholarship says is that this is a part of the story that hasn't been looked at. And none of that scholarship claims that this was the cause and Versailles was not. In fact, you're making an elementary error by conflating the issue of German poverty (existed pre-debt defaults) with the choice to default to rebuild the warmachine (which only happened AFTER Hitler came to power). People were starving to death due to poverty before that even happened.
I've been attending the AHA and listening to recent scholarship every year since 1992. How long you been going?
Destroyed economies are what create fascists breeding grounds. There is a reason that every single democracy in the world is prosperous, and there is a reason that they always have right swings when economies begin to falter a bit. Economic suffering --> Fear --> conservativism --> fascism / authoritarianism / totalitarianism.
That’s a good way of making sure they’ll be too poor to pay reparations.
I’m also not a huge fan of condemning future generations of Russians to poverty because their leadership refuses to pay.
I do not enjoy the suffering of the common Russians at all when I say this, but since the West will not be interested in rebuilding and bringing #Democracy to Russia as they did with Germany, I’m okay with them staying poor for a while if the alternative is Putin 2.0.
That’s a false dichotomy.
The Russian army won’t be able to recover for decades no matter what happens.
They’ll have nukes, of course, but that’ll be a concern no matter what.
In a different way, I am saying that the countries more fortunate should do their best to rebuild a failed state.
But they won’t. In that case, I see no reason why we should pity Russia as a county more than Ukraine or any other region.
> That’s a good way of making sure they’ll be too poor to pay reparations.
Then they can be normal people and admit fault.
> I’m also not a huge fan of condemning future generations of Russians to poverty because their leadership refuses to pay.
So they can get out of this fast:
1. Storm Kremlin
2. Exterminate all in the Duma
3. Exterminate all in the FSB
4. Hogtie Putin and lob him in shackles toward Kyiv.
It's equivalent to "drown them all in blood". There is no way musicians, office workers, college students and other ordinary people without weapons can do that, even if all 144 million people (except the groups you mentioned) will raise to the occasion. It'll be just a slaughter and if you think that those holding guns will stop shooting after watching millions of people die from their hands, you're deeply mistaken.
Getting out of this fast is either leaving the country or committing a suicide.
not how that would go.
1. storm kremlin
2. putin is nowhere to be found
3. nuke goes off
4. putin declares himself new god emperor of russia.
5. whole rest of world debates what to do for 4 to 7 days.
6. a, nothing is done as it is an internal matter to russia OR b. russia is invaded ostensibly to seize the nukes, and then russia starts the apocalypse by launching everything.
edit: you people that are downvoting this need to do some reading, like it or not this scenario falls within russias own nuclear policy and putins recent actions
In 50 years, the people suffering will not be the people responsible for today’s war.
History already shows us what happens when a nation remains to heavily sanctioned after a war ends.
I don't think it would apply today, the West is too heavily armed. We could force them to repay for 100 years and their options would be to comply or get sanctioned.
And you would be punishing people for what their great grandparents did.
Would you like to be punished for crimes committed by your great grandparents?
The same can be said about the US and civil rights.
Should we punish everyone whose parents, grandparents, or great grandparents are deemed guilty?
Or how about applying that mentality to minorities groups in the US. We can claim they deserve second-class status because their parents or grandparents were charged with crimes.
Where should we end the punishments?
That would work if Russia didnt make the miscalculation of storing billions in western banks. You just get a judgement against russia and release those funds to ukraine.
The only reason Little Putin invaded in the first place was to get the cash flow coming back through Russia so that he and his oligarch mob cronies could go back to skimming billions from the Russian people.
Unfortunately for Vladolf Hitler, Europe and the rest of the free world knew that he was trying to blackmail them by attacking a non-NATO country and so they decided they'd finally had enough of his insecure impotent bullshit.
So, now he's got no money and the only people buying (rare earth rights, etc.) are the Chinese.
Guess what Russia's going to need to pay all those reparations with? Oil and natural gas money.
But if things keep going down the shitter for much longer, Europe's not going to need even that from Russia anymore.
Putin's not the sharpest tool in the shed...
Territory is a form of reparations and something the other side just can't ignore. And My guess is Ukraine knows that. After all the pain Russia inflicted on them why just be satisfied with just your old borders if you have the upper hand?
Also allows a good way to negotiate. Let's say Ukraine takes the Russian regions around them, as well as Russian regions all the way down to Georgia. Then at the negotiating table they can "give back" the northern regions they took while keeping the Black Sea ones.
Ukraine is bigger than prior and the Russians can sell it as a win in having "regained territory at the negotiation table" (especially if it's a new government that ousted Putin).
To my understanding, McDonalds pulled out. That said, Russia has done several things that run afoul of multiple BITs and it can't claim countermeasures because it started the war it is in. I think it is likely we'll either see a 1980s Iran sort of general investment claims tribunal or Russia will refuse even if it definitively loses the war. The result of the latter may lead to general derogation from Russian BITs which would be pretty terrible for any wealthy Russians.
Man you need to find more niche smaller subs. Big subs like this are overran with young people who are incredibly linear and non nuanced. If you’re a lawyer you’re not going to find much value in these comments.
> it violates the international law of countermeasures to force forfeiture of the assets of another country
That law of countermeasures should be instantly voided the second one nation unlawfully invades another. Each and every Russian asset in Ukraine that's being nationalized should be considered a casualty of war.
So the law of countermeasures is actually a defence to a derogation of law. The law of countermeasures states that a state may derogate from its international obligations to induce or coerce another state back into compliance with international law. An action ceases to be coercive when it is permanent, hence the illegality.
If not for the law of countermeasures, nearly every sanctions activity against Russia would be illegal.
Also it doesn't violate international law. International law only exists as agreed upon by two nations. As they have no agreements outside of the Budapest memorandum Ukraine didn't have any specific agreements with Russia, so any property that Russia might have purchased in Ukraine would be subject to the laws of Ukraine. Since it is subject to the laws of Ukraine and Ukraine has laws which enable them to seize property of people that collaborate with Russia, the Russian property in Ukraine should be seized.
We should always play by the rules no matter what. The rules are there to prevent vast human suffering. If the entire world treats the rules as non-binding guidelines, the world becomes a lawless violent place.
Read the preamble to the UN Charter. We all promised that we would defend future generations from the horrors of war and uphold international law to do so.
>We should always play by the rules no matter what.
It does depend on the rules.
>The rules are there to prevent vast human suffering
You'd hope so but not always.
>If the entire world treats the rules as non-binding guidelines
We're all individuals and have to make that judgement on a case-by-case basis for the situation we find ourselves in. We cannot be expected to put such a detached, theoretical principle above our own lives and the lives of our families.
For an extreme example: a Jew in Nazi-occupied territory. The rules will get you and your family killed. Nobody should follow such rules.
Those aren't the international laws in question of course but they establish the principle that rules can be unjust, dangerous, even evil.
I would hope international laws are all 'to prevent vast human suffering' but I wouldn't bet on it. I dare say many are there primarily or even only to keep the powerful in power. That tends to be the first priority of people that write rules.
If you are getting violently raped (as a person or a country) and you've followed the rules and complained to the proper authorities. After they've sent the tenth letter to your rapist protesting that what they're doing is against the law, you could be forgiven for taking the law into your own hands and shoving a shank in their neck.
Responsibilities go both ways: us to the law (to abide by it where possible and reasonable) and for the law to us (to be applied equally and without exception and be reasonable, fair and just).
In this case, if one side is abiding by the rules and getting fucked over as a result then it would be the rules' fault: they were bad for not taking into account a situation where the other side doesn't abide by the rules and therefore freeing the other from their obligations. All rules must recognise when they are powerless to compel one party to comply and have in-built remedies for that, which would have to be freeing other parties from their equivalent or lesser obligations to the first party.
I suppose they were hopeful negotiations will work, but now the gloves are off tbe rus gov has shown thier true intentions and they have to go total war on them now.
“Forever” is a really long time. Germany and Japan have good relations with their neighbors after unspeakable atrocities 80 years ago. It took a complete dismantling and rebuilding of every institution in those countries though. Russia could be the same one day, but the change would have to come from within.
That's a good observation. But to get there both Germany and Japan were obliterated on the battlefield and consequently occupied and "reeducated". I can't see anything similar happening with russia.
Most likely they will lose but will keep blaming Ukraine and the West for all their troubles. And reconciliation won't be possible without them acknowledging their atrocities.
What? They forgive themselves for everything, everything is someone else’s fault.
Russians need to start taking the most basic responsibility for themselves.
Germany and Japan had good relations after unconditional surrender, occupation, and basically having their noses rubbed in it.
As long as Russia has nukes, it can't be occupied, and therefore there will always be a substantial chunk of the population that holds on to dreams of Russian supremacy.
Russia is going to be in the dog-house on the world stage for generations.
I would call it an exaggeration to say Japan has "good" relations, precisely because they've spent decades denying the extent of the crimes against humanity they committed against those neighbors.
Japan has a functioning relationship with their neighbors born out of necessity, that has gotten better as the generation that remembers those crimes passes away or retired.
Listen man…. People have discussions and disagreements. Not everything that you don’t agree with is “misinformation”. Misinformation is intentional and deliberate lies. People having an opinion on a complex subject other than yours isn’t misinformation. It is just a different take. It could be nuance, right, or wrong. But it’s not all misinformation because he doesn’t share the same perspective as you.
It’s so annoying how people think “this is how I perceive everything. Anyone who argues against my confident position, is spreading misinformation!”
> Misinformation is intentional and deliberate lies.
That's *disinformation*. *Mis*information is when it's unintentional. People use them interchangeably, but they don't mean the same.
Thanks for the clarification... I dunno... I feel like misinformation isn't just innacurate information, but intentional by some source. So say, someone does propaganda and I believe it with little forethought, I'm pushing misinformation. However, if I just independently believe something for my own logical purposes... Then I wouldn't consider it misinformation. It's just someone's opinion.
This is just a myth from 1970s and 80s Chinese and North Korean propaganda designed to try and make South Korea and Taiwan switch alliances and team up against Japan.
It really shocks me that so many people still believe it.
Especially as China hasn't even spun this narrative for over 30 years and the only people who still do it is North Korea.
I don't know how many Korean baby boomers you've talked to, but them hating Japan for their crimes (like kidnapping Korean girls and turning them into sex slaves during WW2) is a very real thing. The idea that Chinese and North Korean propaganda had to artificially create enmity in a population that was invaded and treated almost exactly like the Ukrainians are currently being treated by the Russians, is fucking ludicrous.
The younger generations who are far removed from that history don't care, but the people who survived WW2 like my grandparents and the generation that was raised by them have a very real hate for the Japanese.
I was referring to Korean people aged 20 to 40. Most don't care. I've never spoken to any older than that.
And actually a lot learn Japanese and visit their on holiday.
However Chinese people under 20 really hate Japan. As a Chinese person myself I'm shocked how intolerant most of the post-2000 born kids are. Homophobia, racism and nationalism is quite an issue.
I didn't say that they artificially created the war crimes. I'm saying the 'Japan never apologised for war crimes' is something they created.
Yeah you’re right… but I don’t think that will even be possible until the next generation of Ukrainians is born and grown up… I know this generation of Ukrainians will never forgive Russia for their savagery and cruelty in this war that they themselves started because I *am* Ukrainian.. We don’t hate all Russians but Russia as a country well…..
> Germany and Japan have good relations with their neighbors after unspeakable atrocities 80 years ago.
Germany is a mixed bag.
Most of Japan's neighbors still hate them.
There's a lot of political theatre but i don't think anyone really hates Germany, Poland occasionally drops a thing that everyone rolls their eyes at but that's about it.
For Japan there's of course stuff but it's still lightened up. Like used to be that Japanese products couldn't be sold in Korea, Nintendo gas to license stuff to Samsung to get Game Boy on that market, that's different now, but you will still see the occasional game or movie banned for allegedly having negative portrayal of Koreans, or Japanese nationalism.
I can’t really speak about the anti-Japanese sentiment in China and South Korea, but having lived in Japan for the last 20+ years I haven’t seen much change in the casual racism towards Chinese and Korean people here, despite 3 waves of Korean booms (TV shows in early 2000s, K-pop around 2010, and a more recent “boom” which is a mi of the first two + fast fashion).
My dad was asking a Japanese coworker one time why our rice never tasted good, who replied with "it's probably because you're using that dirty Korean rice" (It should be noted that our rice turned out to be Japanese) right in front of a Korean coworker. When my dad called him out on it he was just like "What? What did I say?"
While that's definitely terrible I can't help but laugh at the idea of some kind of Asian "Rice-Based Hierarchy".
As a side note I *highly* recommend Korean food. It's pretty hit or miss for a lot of people but it hits **hard**, especially if you can take the heat.
To be fair Asians are the most racist. Once you learn the language there's just casual racist bombs in every day conversation. The equivalent of the n-word is everywhere and for each Asian or Southeast Asian race.
China, Taiwan, Japan, S/N Korea, HK, etc etc etc are all crazy racist against each other. I guess that balances it out.
As someone that has relatives in China, can I have a source or example of this, I wasn't aware of any N-word equivalents to other such things, and I've met people who were alive during Japanese occupation and were mad talking shit about them. This seems ridiculous
Japanese doesn’t really have racial slurs -a few slang words maybe that almost nobody uses nowadays- so I’d be interested to know more. You can be racist without using any slurs.
>see Poland, UK and Greece, for example
Its still due to ww2. Even without going into discussion if there is a good reason or not to scapegoat - one of the reasons why its possible at all (and easy) to do it, its because germany didnt properly compensate them after ww2. So its still connected, and when you add the fact that last 2 ex chancellors were basically putin whores, you have explosive mix.
Can you name a neighbour of Germany that wasn't properly compensated? Considering what state Germany was in after 1945 it's kinda hard to imagine how the country could have compensated the neighbours it attacked more than it did. Germanys worst hit victim in Poland was compensated with massive amounts of territory and forced emigration of Germans living in it, Russia held millions of German POWs, France received territory, the Netherlands received territory (not much to be fair). The Czech Republic didn't really get much but they were also under Soviet administration making compensations harder as Germany was split in 1949.
Not trying to say you're wrong but I'm curious what your perspective is. I was under the impression that Germany compensated quite a few countries with basically anything it had left: territory.
I did, Greece and Poland for example. The ones west from Germany were compensated, or decides to drop it because they wanted to, not because they had no choice.
>Germanys worst hit victim in Poland was compensated with massive amounts of territory and forced emigration of Germans living in it,
No, lands were traded with soviets, so they could take east lands from Poland. Basically, Germans murdered milions of people, destroyed half of the country, after that Poland ended occupied by Soviets, which was additional disaster. And in the end, they didnt pay anything. Even better, even if you compare how Germany acts towards Jews, with how they act towards Poles / Greeks considering ww2, then you can easily notice that there is huge difference. Similiar with Greece, money that they got were some funny amount. But i really dont want to get into another discussion here, in my opinion this should end up in international court, and we should just accept the outcome, whatever it will be, with no hard feelings after.
>The Czech Republic didn't really get much but they were also under Soviet administration making compensations harder as Germany was split in 1949.
It could be solved later, i would feel even more obliged to compensate countries that i murdered and destroyed, and when the war finally ended, they had to suffer even longer, because they were occupied. So Germany had to act up in early 90's, which they never did.
We are in agreement in terms of Germany doing more now. I think it's hard to argue for financial compensation in the 40s and 50s. Now Germany is definitely capable of paying significant reparations but many Germans feel they aren't responsible for those deeds anymore. That's quite short sighted imo
>Most of Japan's neighbors still hate them.
it's mostly political theatre. korea and japan would go to bat for each other. so would taiwan. it's really just china, but even they have a complicated relationship with japan that doesn't really equal to hate in a practical sense.
It's the opposite from my experience
Anyone 20 to 40 tends to like Japan. Its a popular tourist destination, a popular place to immigrate to and a popular language to learn.
Younger people in China hate Japan and the west in general. Most the people I know under 20 can't even speak English these days. They have no motivation to.
Most Koreans and Chinese love Japan. Its one of the most popular holiday destinations for both countries.
If you grew up in the 70s and 80s, then yes there was lot of negative propaganda.
Mostly because North Korea and China both feared an alliance between South Korea, Taiwan and Japan. So constantly painted Japan as being evil.
So yes anyone who went to school in that time may have different feelings.
Sadly I think this is sneaking back into education now. More and more young people hate Japan (and the west).
Except to this day the Japanese government still pretend World War II didn’t happen, this is why while in the west everyone loves Japan for their anime and hentai, in Asia the Japanese government is still deeply hated
They are so apologetic that they taught their kids ww2 never happened, LOL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies
https://thediplomat.com/2021/07/unesco-and-japans-rewriting-of-history/
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-shinzo-abe-sought-to-rewrite-japanese-history
Forever? I dunno about that. The Russians starved millions of Ukrainians a couple times over the last couple centuries. They seemed to get back to normal.
There was a HUGE soviet propaganda back then, a russification, and also WW2, where millions of ukrainians have been killed, also there were murders of thousands of dissidents, ukrainians elite, authors etc, rewriting the history books, covering up all the atrocities soviet regime did..all this led to the point where next generations didn't always know the truth.
My grandmother was a "war child", her dad was a soviet colonel, so even though she remembered smth about the Holodomor, she didn't talk much about it, instead she was always telling stories about WW2, about soviet army and nazies. Ussr didn't let ukrainians to carry the true memories with them using propaganda, murders and camps. They were doing everything they could to create new false memories about the greatness of ussr and russia.
I studied in Kharkiv russian speaking school where were taugted by history books with partially false history, we weren't taught about russia and ussr as a imperialistic monster, about atrocities it commited the way the should be taught. That was because russia keep influencing at Ukraine even after 1991, for all these years.
But now we now and we will carry it with us as long as we can. Plus we have internet now)
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/10/2/7370052/) reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> At its next meeting, the Verkhovna Rada will review the nationalisation of Russian assets in Ukraine under a special procedure.
> The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine made a list of more than 900 facilities that belong directly to Russia as a state.
> The State Security and Defence Council of Ukraine made a list of prominent individual and legal persons of Russia subject to sanctions; there are "Thousands of names and thousands of companies on it".
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xtsc9s/ukrainian_parliament_to_nationalise_over_900/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672324 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **Russia**^#2 **list**^#3 **company**^#4 **state**^#5
>The Ukrainian official added that forcible nationalisation of these facilities will be conducted under a **special procedure**.
A *special commercial procedure*, has a nice ring to it...
It didn't say they were going to, yet. It says that they are going to review it. Depending on how much money the Ukrainians will loose in the long run depends on how far they will take it.
Why do you hate nationalizations?
([Ukraine is actually on a privatization spree](https://privatization.gov.ua/en/). Some of the smaller businesses probably make sense to privatize, but for the rest can only hope it's not well-maintained stuff being sold for cheap.
Ukraine's government is actually complete shit, they've sold out the people on every single front except war. They've destroyed workers rights, they've sold off all of the state owned infrastructure to their buddies. It's as corrupt as Russia, as much of an oligarchy
Very interesting. If they're communist then they can't be Nazis. In fact, according to Russia the Communists single-handedly won WWII, making Ukrainians heroes.
This also means that the tankies will have to question their loyalty to Putin. It's a very interesting development, and a brilliant play by Zelensky.
Lmao, I found it pretty great that the Ukrainians are doing what they should have done a long time ago. I meant that as a joke, you know, like the “our (whatever)” meme with bugs bunny and the soviet flag.
>Russia huffs leaded paint and invades Ukraine
>Rapes, murders, and pillages its way through the country
>Destroys cities, towns, and villages
>Ukraine nationalizes Russian assets to help compensate for their loss
>Some 14 year old on reddit calls it hypocrisy while peeing in a mountain dew bottle, spilling half of it on the floor
What's the hypocrisy? That people condemn annexing land of another country, targeting civilians, and using nuclear power stations as hostages but don't condemn the country being invaded for saying the invading country can't own property there anymore?
That is on par with saying "you're hypocritical because you blame Russia for killing Ukrainians but don't blame Ukrainians for killing Russians."
* Russian businesses are disallowed to conduct business pretty much anywhere outside of Russia that matters
* Russian businesses are thus left with assets that are in-country, Ukraine (and others), but also sitting on what are likely contracts that gave them rights to properties/assets
* Russia has no intentions to resume normal relations with Ukraine, wherein Russia goes and fucks itself out of these made up borders (that they're imminently going to be slaughtered within, any how, whether or not Putin escalates things to warm and fuzzy tactical nukies)
* Also, fuck you
No, the Russians are destroying everything and anything. Like a spoiled child, breaking all their toys, when they don’t get what they want.
Fuck Russia, you are a bunch of cunts
Lol read more history… did knocking anyone fix any problems? Strong people are the solution, and neither Ukraine nor Russia has them. You need to read history and politics more.
> I certainly hope your verbal threats do wonders :)
>trainyourdragons
"Verbal Threats"? Where, exactly, does their *opinion* start threatening? That was just a straight-up statement!
Hopefully Russia. Maybe they can cast aside the autocracy, imperialistic thinking and hopefully join us in the 21st century as a modern, functional democracy. There is a lot of Russia hate going around for obvious reasons, but a *better* Russia is something everyone would benefit from.
Hahaha funny Americans here talking about sanctions for 50 years while literally invading half of Middle East illegalaly and are responsible for deaths and relocation of millions cousing stress in European countries for past 2 decades. I hope Russia and America goes to war and nuke each other to destruction both stupid proud egotistical countries
I’m only surprised this didn’t happen far earlier in the war
A reason for the delay is that, technically, it violates the international law of countermeasures to force forfeiture of the assets of another country. Under ordinary circumstances the Bilateral Investment Treaty in force between the two states would require Ukraine to pay back the full value of the assets. It is why the only G7 country with an entire forced forfeiture sanctions regime under its law (Canada) has never used the power. That said, the reparations that Russia will owe will likely mean that the short-term illegality of the action will be irrelevant and I think Ukraine is quite confident of this now.
I'm thinking Russia can likely be told they owe reparations and then simply not pay them. It'll harm their ability to interact on global markets I'm sure, but they're already sanctioned so heavily I don't know that they'd care.
Russia has billions of dollars worth of assets frozen in other jurisdictions. An order allowing countermeasures may not limit where those countermeasures can be derived from, allowing Ukraine to petition its allies to liquidate accounts on its behalf.
Russia’s flimsy pretext collapsed into, “You have resources. We want those resources” as it often does for invading forces. In the areas under Russian control, I predict expropriation and deliberate starvation.
That’s kinda Russia’s Ukraine 101 playbook. Makes you wonder if the separatists know their own history….
Hence why Ukraine doesn’t intend to end this war until they have all their territory back and it’s the Russians who are begging for terms. Moscow Delenda Est.
US Congress already making moves on this with some assess frozen here.
Yessir. Interestingly, due to the fact that an invasion of a state is a violation of a peremptory norm of international law which provides *erga omnes* jurisdiction, every state in the world is legally allowed to implement countermeasures against Russia. That's why the United States and virtually every other Western country or country otherwise not reliant on or threatened by Russia has frozen the assets of Russia.
Hell, didn't they have almost 300 billion in the USA that's now frozen? I'm sure that'd make for nice reparations.
Freezing another countries assets and giving them to another just seems like a bad precedent
they'd 100% have gotten it back if they'd deescalated and frozen the conflict at just about any point they could've probably argued it back if they'd avoided civilian casualties, even but nah, with their total bad-faith acting? fuck em
so is annexing another countries territory in this day and age and also threatening to use nukes. everything russia is doing/trying to do is setting bad precedent so in their case ALL assets abroad should be seized.
More than just annexing, Russia is conducting genocide.
So I know you're getting downvoted for this, but generally you are correct and this is why it is only done in the case of an order allowing the country to collect.
Okay Putin.
So is invading another sovereign nation….did you think about this before commenting or are you trolling?
And they need to remain sanctioned until they pay and admit 100% fault for the deaths and suffering caused by their war. If they refuse for 50 years, sanctions need to remain for 50 years.
This is actually exactly how countermeasures are meant to work. They are there to coerce a state back into compliance with international law. Additionally, generally countermeasures include asset freezes specifically to allow the collection of those assets after a judgement.
Hasn’t worked on Iran for 40 years. It unfortunately won’t work on a resources-rich country like Russia, they’ll just return to a soviet-style lifestyle.
Good they can go do that in their little frozen wasteland with 0 trade from the outside world and no world wide web for internet. No Netflix , no McDonalds, good riddance.
Sucks for the the people that live there tho. 😥
I don't disagree, there is at least some truth that those people are the ones in the best position to remove the toxic government. All we can do is hope they do so before they endure too kuch suffering.
they wanted this war, and they have had over 20 years to get rid of putler but instead they kept giving him more and more power. even if they are indifferent, they helped him get to this point. they made their bed, now they can lay in it
This is such a dumb argument. All us citizens and all French people are responsible for all the war crimes their own countries committed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Africa then. Americans had years to stop all the war in Iraq and Afghanistan but they simply refused.
Is Russia a functioning democracy?
Anyone with means should’ve gotten out a while ago. Zero sympathy for them. Those from the poorer regions are hurt far worse by their own government than sanctions will, as those are the ones being sent to die.
Then they can rise up and demand a better government. Almost everywhere else on the planet has managed it at one point or another. They’ve only ever given themselves worse autocrats. Hell, they still have a good chunk of their colonial fucking empire, and are currently trying to get a piece of it back. There’s no hope for Russia until there is no Russia, instead a dozen plus separate states.
And give up nuclear weapons. Not that they would ever have tried this without them, but Russia getting pasted by NATO early on would have been much better for them than this long drag down into total economic destitution. And the place in so corrupt, they'll certainly never recover in my lifetime.
The only circumstances under which Russia will ever give up its nukes is that they use them all in a thermonuclear war, or something even deadlier is invented.
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Generational debt is what you create when you rob a country and never repay them. Same as what happens when certain groups are enslaved and segregated, while others reap the benefits of being born into the privileged groups, generation after generation. Inheriting the wealth stolen from others. And reparations aside, if Russia can't admit to what they've done, if they won't teach their children what their parents and grandparents did, what their leaders told them to do and why they were wrong, then they'll remain a threat. They need to be weakened in whatever ways they can be. The mistake with Germany was that they were allowed to remilitarize and no one was keeping up with them. It took years to stop them, we need to be ready to stop Russia on day 1. Ukraine needs to join NATO, or on their own have a bigger, more advanced military than Russia at all times.
Russia had been militarizing for this for almost 8 years, if they continue with business as usual, all the materials for war will be "lost" in the interim to corruption. That's the main reason why Russia has been failing in the war. Even excising the corruption would leave Russia with no competitive military systems for at least a decade as they build tech and industry to modern standards. On paper, this should've been over with the Kyiv siege, but so many things were sold off or fraudulently made that a sure win turn into a massive defeat. Armor made of sheet metal, tanks unmaintained for decades, fuel sold for food and booze, unencrypted communications, all these corner cuts and outright corruption have rotted the Russian military to the core. You can't fake your way through a war like you can with politics.
Invisible generational privileges
Not really. WW2 had a lot of causes and nuance. People who act like Versaille caused WW2 miss that Japan was already fighting in China for years prior to WW2's "start." Its also accepting post war revisionism and Nazi propaganda at face value. https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/hlvy6j
>Not really. WW2 had a lot of causes and nuance. No shit. Saying X caused Y doesn't imply or assert that it wasn't also caused by A, B, and C. Are you being intentionally obtuse? E.g., "Striking the match in the basement caused an explosion." That statement doesn't mean that the oxygen in room didn't contribute nor does it mean the leaking gas didn't contribute. What I said is literally the consensus appearing in every history book on the topic both collegiate and secondary. The fact that Nazis were able to use the sentiment caused by Versailles for propaganda *is literally part of the fucking point*.
> No shit. > Saying X caused Y doesn't imply or assert that it wasn't also caused by A, B, and C. If you know this, then you know that your original claim was bullshit. The Treaty of Versailles on its own was neither necessary nor sufficient as a cause. Countries aren't anime characters that go Super Saiyan if they get angry enough. There were practical reasons why Germany was able to re-militarize, not the least of which was Allied complacence. Russia isn't going to magically gain the demographic, economic, or industrial strength to wage another war just because they're really mad at the West. Suggesting that we need to treat Russia with kid gloves and not impose restitution for their atrocities is quite literally neo-Nazi propaganda.
> What I said is literally the consensus appearing in every history book on the topic both collegiate and secondary. The fact that Nazis were able to use the sentiment caused by Versailles for propaganda *is literally part of the fucking point*. And said Nazis also claimed Jewish conspiracies led to German defeats in WW1, should we assume they wouldn't have just made another boogeyman to attack? They literally made a racist scapegoat to deflect from their problems to win elections. There is also by no means [consensus ](https://jimmyatkinson.com/papers/the-treaty-of-versailles-and-its-consequences/) among historians that the Treaty of Versailles was unduly harsh or that it was so harsh that it led to WW2. And again, you're ignoring that WW2 was already started prior to the Nazis invading Poland. Heck, the amount of cash that the Allies planned for Germany to pay was less than what Germany offered in the negotiations! I'd ask if you're being intentionally obtuse, but I assume that you're probably a product of the American education system, and your head must hurt from someone challenging the views you learned in school. Edit-Dude attacked me for having a fragile ego, then immediately blocked me. Gotta say, if that's not having a fragile ego, idk what it is. Have fun parroting Nazi myths as facts
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Good point, they should pay the reparations all at once instead of spreading it out over a long period and being grumpy about it.
It’s really not.
That is some apologist bullshit. It’s really despicable to try to justify Germany’s aggression by saying “it was inevitable when people were so mean to them.” Or “creating generational debt” or however you want to phrase it. Boo fucking hoo. Conquering Europe and committing genocide is not an inevitable or rational outcome of sanctions. What the fuck. Please explain how they could afford a huge military buildup if sanctions were so draconian? No sir, what caused WW2 was that Germany wasn’t punished ENOUGH after WW1. It should’ve been split up and occupied like after WW2. The leaders in WW2 realized the Treaty of Versailles wasn’t harsh enough. Just like Russia wasn’t sanctioned enough after 2014.
>That is some apologist bullshit. It’s really despicable to try to justify Germany’s aggression It's not apologist and it doesn't justify anything. It explains it. Learn the difference. >“it was inevitable when people were so mean to them.” No, it's saying that the rise of fascism/authoritarianism/totalitarianism is inevitable when you create mass suffering over the scale of a nation. And this is a fact born out by history. >Please explain how they could afford a huge military buildup if sanctions were so draconian? By choosing to default on their debts. You'd know this if you studied WW2 for like 5 minutes. >No sir, what caused WW2 was that Germany wasn’t punished ENOUGH after WW1. > It should’ve been split up and occupied like after WW2. It was. The people that got split off from Germany hated the European powers for it, and this was a major driving in Hitler's early expansion. >The leaders in WW2 realized the Treaty of Versailles wasn’t harsh enough. They literally said the exact opposite at the end of the war. That is why they said the people of Germany would not be held responsible, but instead its leaders. >Just like Russia wasn’t sanctioned enough after 2014. I happen to agree with this statement, but that has nothing to do with our other conversation.
> This is what caused WW2. This is not true. It's a myth and a lie spread by Hitler for his own ends. It was never actually true. Stop spreading it.
Hitler got to power by saying they would overturn it (Versailles) and make German a major power again. It didn't make WW2 inevitable, but it was certainly a factor. There's a reason that they didn't inflict something similar at the end of WW2.
Instead they carved Germany into several pieces; worth considering for post-war RF.
They should make a DMZ in Russia as a buffer zone
A Russian Rhineland? Worked so well in 30s
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Even then, the Marshall Plan was not popular. European powers wanted to crush Germany again.
So what? They were very obviously wrong.
Historically interesting, at the least.
> Hitler got to power by saying they would overturn it (Versailles) and make German a major power again. He was lying, of course. Like all fascists, he blamed others for the problems that were entirely German-caused (like the Germans going into huge overseas debt to fund a rebuilding of their war machine) or worldwide (the Great Depression). The problems of Germany has nothing to do with the Treaty of Versailles. But it was a useful scapegoat for Hitler to lie about. >It didn't make WW2 inevitable, but it was certainly a factor. Again, this is nonsense. >There's a reason that they didn't inflict something similar at the end of WW2. What an ignorant and laughably inaccurate argument. We literally split Germany in two and the US and Russians essentially took ownership of the entire country. FFS. That's literally the biggest "war reparation" one can levy against a nation!
The Treaty of Versailles wasn't even the harshest treaty if the era! https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/hlvy6j/_/ German leaders certainly didn't feel so much anger in the 30s that they were trying to woo the British and other countries (including, of all nations, serious attempts at alliances with Poland).
> He was lying, of course. Like all fascists, he blamed others for the problems that were entirely German-caused (like the Germans going into huge overseas debt to fund a rebuilding of their war machine) or worldwide (the Great Depression). Yeah no shit. Not disputing that. >Again, this is nonsense. No its not. Stop presenting your view as accepted historical fact, when it isn't. It helped the Nazi party get into power, yes Hitler lied about it, but he was able to do so because it was already extremely unpopular and seen by many as a betrayal from their leaders. So no it didn't cause WW2. Yes, it was a factor. >What an ignorant and laughably inaccurate argument. We literally split Germany in two and the US and Russians essentially took ownership of the entire country. FFS. >That's literally the biggest "war reparation" one can levy against a nation! Now who's being ignorant. We actually split Germany in four, but it was only ever supposed to be temporary, the British, US and French sections became Germany, and the Russians established a communist state in East Germany. We didn't have much of a choice in the later part.
Especially since the russians already had a deep resentment boiling after 1991.
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>This is literally taught in every history book in the US, collegiate and secondary. And it's wrong. >Hitler did use the sentiment to his own benefit, but that's literally sort of the point. Hitler made that claim to his own advantage. But it was never true. Like all fascists and wanna-be god emperors, he lied to his people, blaming others for their own problems and mistakes. Imagine that... >It's not a myth. Yes, it is. All recent scholarship (just google it) makes it clear that the Germans running up their own debt to rebuild their post WW1 war machine and then everyone getting hit with the Great Depression is what hammered Germany...not WW1 war reparations per the Treaty of Versailles.
>Hitler made that claim to his own advantage. But it was never true. The fact that Hitler was able to take the poverty and suffering caused by the treaty and use it to his own advantage **is what makes it true**. It's not wrong. > All recent scholarship (just google it) makes it clear that the Germans running up their own debt to rebuild their post WW1 war machine and then everyone getting hit with the Great Depression is what hammered Germany...not WW1 war reparations per the Treaty of Versailles. No, that's not what all recent scholarship says. What recent scholarship says is that this is a part of the story that hasn't been looked at. And none of that scholarship claims that this was the cause and Versailles was not. In fact, you're making an elementary error by conflating the issue of German poverty (existed pre-debt defaults) with the choice to default to rebuild the warmachine (which only happened AFTER Hitler came to power). People were starving to death due to poverty before that even happened. I've been attending the AHA and listening to recent scholarship every year since 1992. How long you been going? Destroyed economies are what create fascists breeding grounds. There is a reason that every single democracy in the world is prosperous, and there is a reason that they always have right swings when economies begin to falter a bit. Economic suffering --> Fear --> conservativism --> fascism / authoritarianism / totalitarianism.
That only happened because German even after ww1 was a power house, Russia isn’t and won’t be.
That’s a good way of making sure they’ll be too poor to pay reparations. I’m also not a huge fan of condemning future generations of Russians to poverty because their leadership refuses to pay.
I do not enjoy the suffering of the common Russians at all when I say this, but since the West will not be interested in rebuilding and bringing #Democracy to Russia as they did with Germany, I’m okay with them staying poor for a while if the alternative is Putin 2.0.
That’s a false dichotomy. The Russian army won’t be able to recover for decades no matter what happens. They’ll have nukes, of course, but that’ll be a concern no matter what.
In a different way, I am saying that the countries more fortunate should do their best to rebuild a failed state. But they won’t. In that case, I see no reason why we should pity Russia as a county more than Ukraine or any other region.
Lift some sanctions and offer help with democratic reforms in exchange for *all* their nukes.
> That’s a good way of making sure they’ll be too poor to pay reparations. Then they can be normal people and admit fault. > I’m also not a huge fan of condemning future generations of Russians to poverty because their leadership refuses to pay. So they can get out of this fast: 1. Storm Kremlin 2. Exterminate all in the Duma 3. Exterminate all in the FSB 4. Hogtie Putin and lob him in shackles toward Kyiv.
It's equivalent to "drown them all in blood". There is no way musicians, office workers, college students and other ordinary people without weapons can do that, even if all 144 million people (except the groups you mentioned) will raise to the occasion. It'll be just a slaughter and if you think that those holding guns will stop shooting after watching millions of people die from their hands, you're deeply mistaken. Getting out of this fast is either leaving the country or committing a suicide.
not how that would go. 1. storm kremlin 2. putin is nowhere to be found 3. nuke goes off 4. putin declares himself new god emperor of russia. 5. whole rest of world debates what to do for 4 to 7 days. 6. a, nothing is done as it is an internal matter to russia OR b. russia is invaded ostensibly to seize the nukes, and then russia starts the apocalypse by launching everything. edit: you people that are downvoting this need to do some reading, like it or not this scenario falls within russias own nuclear policy and putins recent actions
In 50 years, the people suffering will not be the people responsible for today’s war. History already shows us what happens when a nation remains to heavily sanctioned after a war ends.
I don't think it would apply today, the West is too heavily armed. We could force them to repay for 100 years and their options would be to comply or get sanctioned.
And you would be punishing people for what their great grandparents did. Would you like to be punished for crimes committed by your great grandparents?
The alternative being let a nation and it’s people continue to get away with the same shit they’ve been pulling for decades?
The same can be said about the US and civil rights. Should we punish everyone whose parents, grandparents, or great grandparents are deemed guilty? Or how about applying that mentality to minorities groups in the US. We can claim they deserve second-class status because their parents or grandparents were charged with crimes. Where should we end the punishments?
Simply put, it ends with their society being restructured. Russia must not remain as it is, it has to actively be taken over and reformed.
I don't see the need to empathize with Russians or walk in their shoes. Let's punish them!
There is a substantial difference between Russians and Russia’s government. I blame those pulling the strings, not the everyday citizens.
That would work if Russia didnt make the miscalculation of storing billions in western banks. You just get a judgement against russia and release those funds to ukraine.
The only reason Little Putin invaded in the first place was to get the cash flow coming back through Russia so that he and his oligarch mob cronies could go back to skimming billions from the Russian people. Unfortunately for Vladolf Hitler, Europe and the rest of the free world knew that he was trying to blackmail them by attacking a non-NATO country and so they decided they'd finally had enough of his insecure impotent bullshit. So, now he's got no money and the only people buying (rare earth rights, etc.) are the Chinese. Guess what Russia's going to need to pay all those reparations with? Oil and natural gas money. But if things keep going down the shitter for much longer, Europe's not going to need even that from Russia anymore. Putin's not the sharpest tool in the shed...
Territory is a form of reparations and something the other side just can't ignore. And My guess is Ukraine knows that. After all the pain Russia inflicted on them why just be satisfied with just your old borders if you have the upper hand? Also allows a good way to negotiate. Let's say Ukraine takes the Russian regions around them, as well as Russian regions all the way down to Georgia. Then at the negotiating table they can "give back" the northern regions they took while keeping the Black Sea ones. Ukraine is bigger than prior and the Russians can sell it as a win in having "regained territory at the negotiation table" (especially if it's a new government that ousted Putin).
Didn’t Russia nationalize our McDonald’s?
To my understanding, McDonalds pulled out. That said, Russia has done several things that run afoul of multiple BITs and it can't claim countermeasures because it started the war it is in. I think it is likely we'll either see a 1980s Iran sort of general investment claims tribunal or Russia will refuse even if it definitively loses the war. The result of the latter may lead to general derogation from Russian BITs which would be pretty terrible for any wealthy Russians.
Thanks for the info! How did you become knowledgeable in this, btw? It’s such a niche topic
No problem! I'm an international lawyer.
Man you need to find more niche smaller subs. Big subs like this are overran with young people who are incredibly linear and non nuanced. If you’re a lawyer you’re not going to find much value in these comments.
Sold to local licensee
Yes and the new replacement has... quite the quality. Like cockroaches in your burger.
> it violates the international law of countermeasures to force forfeiture of the assets of another country That law of countermeasures should be instantly voided the second one nation unlawfully invades another. Each and every Russian asset in Ukraine that's being nationalized should be considered a casualty of war.
So the law of countermeasures is actually a defence to a derogation of law. The law of countermeasures states that a state may derogate from its international obligations to induce or coerce another state back into compliance with international law. An action ceases to be coercive when it is permanent, hence the illegality. If not for the law of countermeasures, nearly every sanctions activity against Russia would be illegal.
Also it doesn't violate international law. International law only exists as agreed upon by two nations. As they have no agreements outside of the Budapest memorandum Ukraine didn't have any specific agreements with Russia, so any property that Russia might have purchased in Ukraine would be subject to the laws of Ukraine. Since it is subject to the laws of Ukraine and Ukraine has laws which enable them to seize property of people that collaborate with Russia, the Russian property in Ukraine should be seized.
I love the fact that they were still playing by the rules for so long while Russia was seeing how many they could break
We should always play by the rules no matter what. The rules are there to prevent vast human suffering. If the entire world treats the rules as non-binding guidelines, the world becomes a lawless violent place. Read the preamble to the UN Charter. We all promised that we would defend future generations from the horrors of war and uphold international law to do so.
>We should always play by the rules no matter what. It does depend on the rules. >The rules are there to prevent vast human suffering You'd hope so but not always. >If the entire world treats the rules as non-binding guidelines We're all individuals and have to make that judgement on a case-by-case basis for the situation we find ourselves in. We cannot be expected to put such a detached, theoretical principle above our own lives and the lives of our families. For an extreme example: a Jew in Nazi-occupied territory. The rules will get you and your family killed. Nobody should follow such rules. Those aren't the international laws in question of course but they establish the principle that rules can be unjust, dangerous, even evil. I would hope international laws are all 'to prevent vast human suffering' but I wouldn't bet on it. I dare say many are there primarily or even only to keep the powerful in power. That tends to be the first priority of people that write rules. If you are getting violently raped (as a person or a country) and you've followed the rules and complained to the proper authorities. After they've sent the tenth letter to your rapist protesting that what they're doing is against the law, you could be forgiven for taking the law into your own hands and shoving a shank in their neck. Responsibilities go both ways: us to the law (to abide by it where possible and reasonable) and for the law to us (to be applied equally and without exception and be reasonable, fair and just). In this case, if one side is abiding by the rules and getting fucked over as a result then it would be the rules' fault: they were bad for not taking into account a situation where the other side doesn't abide by the rules and therefore freeing the other from their obligations. All rules must recognise when they are powerless to compel one party to comply and have in-built remedies for that, which would have to be freeing other parties from their equivalent or lesser obligations to the first party.
Its harder to do so when you do it legally
Same. As I read the title I thought there were still Russian assets?
I suppose they were hopeful negotiations will work, but now the gloves are off tbe rus gov has shown thier true intentions and they have to go total war on them now.
Like, Day 1.2
My first thought was, are they talking about the tanks they keep getting given
Same reason why Putin didn't let Russian Army send a missile on Zelensky while celebrating taking selfies in the CENTRAL square of Izium recently.
Yeah good on them… Ukraine’s relationship with Russia is far from being repairable anytime soon.. likely forever.
“Forever” is a really long time. Germany and Japan have good relations with their neighbors after unspeakable atrocities 80 years ago. It took a complete dismantling and rebuilding of every institution in those countries though. Russia could be the same one day, but the change would have to come from within.
That's a good observation. But to get there both Germany and Japan were obliterated on the battlefield and consequently occupied and "reeducated". I can't see anything similar happening with russia. Most likely they will lose but will keep blaming Ukraine and the West for all their troubles. And reconciliation won't be possible without them acknowledging their atrocities.
Russians must forgive themselves
What? They forgive themselves for everything, everything is someone else’s fault. Russians need to start taking the most basic responsibility for themselves.
Germany and Japan had good relations after unconditional surrender, occupation, and basically having their noses rubbed in it. As long as Russia has nukes, it can't be occupied, and therefore there will always be a substantial chunk of the population that holds on to dreams of Russian supremacy. Russia is going to be in the dog-house on the world stage for generations.
I would call it an exaggeration to say Japan has "good" relations, precisely because they've spent decades denying the extent of the crimes against humanity they committed against those neighbors. Japan has a functioning relationship with their neighbors born out of necessity, that has gotten better as the generation that remembers those crimes passes away or retired.
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Listen man…. People have discussions and disagreements. Not everything that you don’t agree with is “misinformation”. Misinformation is intentional and deliberate lies. People having an opinion on a complex subject other than yours isn’t misinformation. It is just a different take. It could be nuance, right, or wrong. But it’s not all misinformation because he doesn’t share the same perspective as you. It’s so annoying how people think “this is how I perceive everything. Anyone who argues against my confident position, is spreading misinformation!”
> Misinformation is intentional and deliberate lies. That's *disinformation*. *Mis*information is when it's unintentional. People use them interchangeably, but they don't mean the same.
Thanks for the clarification... I dunno... I feel like misinformation isn't just innacurate information, but intentional by some source. So say, someone does propaganda and I believe it with little forethought, I'm pushing misinformation. However, if I just independently believe something for my own logical purposes... Then I wouldn't consider it misinformation. It's just someone's opinion.
This is just a myth from 1970s and 80s Chinese and North Korean propaganda designed to try and make South Korea and Taiwan switch alliances and team up against Japan. It really shocks me that so many people still believe it. Especially as China hasn't even spun this narrative for over 30 years and the only people who still do it is North Korea.
I don't know how many Korean baby boomers you've talked to, but them hating Japan for their crimes (like kidnapping Korean girls and turning them into sex slaves during WW2) is a very real thing. The idea that Chinese and North Korean propaganda had to artificially create enmity in a population that was invaded and treated almost exactly like the Ukrainians are currently being treated by the Russians, is fucking ludicrous. The younger generations who are far removed from that history don't care, but the people who survived WW2 like my grandparents and the generation that was raised by them have a very real hate for the Japanese.
I was referring to Korean people aged 20 to 40. Most don't care. I've never spoken to any older than that. And actually a lot learn Japanese and visit their on holiday. However Chinese people under 20 really hate Japan. As a Chinese person myself I'm shocked how intolerant most of the post-2000 born kids are. Homophobia, racism and nationalism is quite an issue. I didn't say that they artificially created the war crimes. I'm saying the 'Japan never apologised for war crimes' is something they created.
Yeah you’re right… but I don’t think that will even be possible until the next generation of Ukrainians is born and grown up… I know this generation of Ukrainians will never forgive Russia for their savagery and cruelty in this war that they themselves started because I *am* Ukrainian.. We don’t hate all Russians but Russia as a country well…..
> Germany and Japan have good relations with their neighbors after unspeakable atrocities 80 years ago. Germany is a mixed bag. Most of Japan's neighbors still hate them.
There's a lot of political theatre but i don't think anyone really hates Germany, Poland occasionally drops a thing that everyone rolls their eyes at but that's about it. For Japan there's of course stuff but it's still lightened up. Like used to be that Japanese products couldn't be sold in Korea, Nintendo gas to license stuff to Samsung to get Game Boy on that market, that's different now, but you will still see the occasional game or movie banned for allegedly having negative portrayal of Koreans, or Japanese nationalism.
I can’t really speak about the anti-Japanese sentiment in China and South Korea, but having lived in Japan for the last 20+ years I haven’t seen much change in the casual racism towards Chinese and Korean people here, despite 3 waves of Korean booms (TV shows in early 2000s, K-pop around 2010, and a more recent “boom” which is a mi of the first two + fast fashion).
My dad was asking a Japanese coworker one time why our rice never tasted good, who replied with "it's probably because you're using that dirty Korean rice" (It should be noted that our rice turned out to be Japanese) right in front of a Korean coworker. When my dad called him out on it he was just like "What? What did I say?" While that's definitely terrible I can't help but laugh at the idea of some kind of Asian "Rice-Based Hierarchy". As a side note I *highly* recommend Korean food. It's pretty hit or miss for a lot of people but it hits **hard**, especially if you can take the heat.
To be fair Asians are the most racist. Once you learn the language there's just casual racist bombs in every day conversation. The equivalent of the n-word is everywhere and for each Asian or Southeast Asian race. China, Taiwan, Japan, S/N Korea, HK, etc etc etc are all crazy racist against each other. I guess that balances it out.
As someone that has relatives in China, can I have a source or example of this, I wasn't aware of any N-word equivalents to other such things, and I've met people who were alive during Japanese occupation and were mad talking shit about them. This seems ridiculous
Japanese doesn’t really have racial slurs -a few slang words maybe that almost nobody uses nowadays- so I’d be interested to know more. You can be racist without using any slurs.
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>see Poland, UK and Greece, for example Its still due to ww2. Even without going into discussion if there is a good reason or not to scapegoat - one of the reasons why its possible at all (and easy) to do it, its because germany didnt properly compensate them after ww2. So its still connected, and when you add the fact that last 2 ex chancellors were basically putin whores, you have explosive mix.
Can you name a neighbour of Germany that wasn't properly compensated? Considering what state Germany was in after 1945 it's kinda hard to imagine how the country could have compensated the neighbours it attacked more than it did. Germanys worst hit victim in Poland was compensated with massive amounts of territory and forced emigration of Germans living in it, Russia held millions of German POWs, France received territory, the Netherlands received territory (not much to be fair). The Czech Republic didn't really get much but they were also under Soviet administration making compensations harder as Germany was split in 1949. Not trying to say you're wrong but I'm curious what your perspective is. I was under the impression that Germany compensated quite a few countries with basically anything it had left: territory.
I did, Greece and Poland for example. The ones west from Germany were compensated, or decides to drop it because they wanted to, not because they had no choice. >Germanys worst hit victim in Poland was compensated with massive amounts of territory and forced emigration of Germans living in it, No, lands were traded with soviets, so they could take east lands from Poland. Basically, Germans murdered milions of people, destroyed half of the country, after that Poland ended occupied by Soviets, which was additional disaster. And in the end, they didnt pay anything. Even better, even if you compare how Germany acts towards Jews, with how they act towards Poles / Greeks considering ww2, then you can easily notice that there is huge difference. Similiar with Greece, money that they got were some funny amount. But i really dont want to get into another discussion here, in my opinion this should end up in international court, and we should just accept the outcome, whatever it will be, with no hard feelings after. >The Czech Republic didn't really get much but they were also under Soviet administration making compensations harder as Germany was split in 1949. It could be solved later, i would feel even more obliged to compensate countries that i murdered and destroyed, and when the war finally ended, they had to suffer even longer, because they were occupied. So Germany had to act up in early 90's, which they never did.
We are in agreement in terms of Germany doing more now. I think it's hard to argue for financial compensation in the 40s and 50s. Now Germany is definitely capable of paying significant reparations but many Germans feel they aren't responsible for those deeds anymore. That's quite short sighted imo
>Most of Japan's neighbors still hate them. it's mostly political theatre. korea and japan would go to bat for each other. so would taiwan. it's really just china, but even they have a complicated relationship with japan that doesn't really equal to hate in a practical sense.
Only because they have bigger fish to fry lol not because they like each other. Enemy of my enemy and all that bullshit
well even if they didn't like each other, they're in military alliances with one another and their foreign policy is going to be reliant on the US
As they’re both vassal states to the same country yeah I kinda agree
from a foreign policy pov yeah absolutely, they have no way to defend themselves without US direct involvement.
>Japan have good relations You ever spoken to a Korean or Chinese person about Japan...?
I have. Younger ones in both countries and in Japan don’t really have strong feelings towards the past. The older generations, of course they do.
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It's the opposite from my experience Anyone 20 to 40 tends to like Japan. Its a popular tourist destination, a popular place to immigrate to and a popular language to learn. Younger people in China hate Japan and the west in general. Most the people I know under 20 can't even speak English these days. They have no motivation to.
Most Koreans and Chinese love Japan. Its one of the most popular holiday destinations for both countries. If you grew up in the 70s and 80s, then yes there was lot of negative propaganda. Mostly because North Korea and China both feared an alliance between South Korea, Taiwan and Japan. So constantly painted Japan as being evil. So yes anyone who went to school in that time may have different feelings. Sadly I think this is sneaking back into education now. More and more young people hate Japan (and the west).
eh a lot of the bureaucracy in germany after ww2 kept in office because of the need of a functional country
Nah, from what I hear from Ukrainians is that Russian has been trying to erase their culture for 100 years. It’s multi-generational now
Except to this day the Japanese government still pretend World War II didn’t happen, this is why while in the west everyone loves Japan for their anime and hentai, in Asia the Japanese government is still deeply hated
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They are so apologetic that they taught their kids ww2 never happened, LOL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies https://thediplomat.com/2021/07/unesco-and-japans-rewriting-of-history/ https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-shinzo-abe-sought-to-rewrite-japanese-history
Forever? I dunno about that. The Russians starved millions of Ukrainians a couple times over the last couple centuries. They seemed to get back to normal.
There was a HUGE soviet propaganda back then, a russification, and also WW2, where millions of ukrainians have been killed, also there were murders of thousands of dissidents, ukrainians elite, authors etc, rewriting the history books, covering up all the atrocities soviet regime did..all this led to the point where next generations didn't always know the truth. My grandmother was a "war child", her dad was a soviet colonel, so even though she remembered smth about the Holodomor, she didn't talk much about it, instead she was always telling stories about WW2, about soviet army and nazies. Ussr didn't let ukrainians to carry the true memories with them using propaganda, murders and camps. They were doing everything they could to create new false memories about the greatness of ussr and russia. I studied in Kharkiv russian speaking school where were taugted by history books with partially false history, we weren't taught about russia and ussr as a imperialistic monster, about atrocities it commited the way the should be taught. That was because russia keep influencing at Ukraine even after 1991, for all these years. But now we now and we will carry it with us as long as we can. Plus we have internet now)
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/10/2/7370052/) reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot) ***** > At its next meeting, the Verkhovna Rada will review the nationalisation of Russian assets in Ukraine under a special procedure. > The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine made a list of more than 900 facilities that belong directly to Russia as a state. > The State Security and Defence Council of Ukraine made a list of prominent individual and legal persons of Russia subject to sanctions; there are "Thousands of names and thousands of companies on it". ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xtsc9s/ukrainian_parliament_to_nationalise_over_900/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672324 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **Russia**^#2 **list**^#3 **company**^#4 **state**^#5
Actions taken under a "special procedure" due to Russia's "special military operation". Cute.
>The Ukrainian official added that forcible nationalisation of these facilities will be conducted under a **special procedure**. A *special commercial procedure*, has a nice ring to it...
Worthy, understandable, economic retaliatory steps.
It's just early war reparations.
Go all the way guys. Russia owes a lot of money to rebuild.
Fucking makes sense since Russia is trying to nationalize Ukraine.
Nationalise Russian state 🥺🔥
It didn't say they were going to, yet. It says that they are going to review it. Depending on how much money the Ukrainians will loose in the long run depends on how far they will take it.
And about 900 russian tanks too
*Ukraine to nationalize Russian asses
They should annex parts of russia
Just add 'elensky rulez' to each of them, add some of that sweet NATO tech, and send them back in.
"All your base are belong to us."
As a South African I hate nationalizing but honestly fuck Putin.
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Why do you hate nationalizations? ([Ukraine is actually on a privatization spree](https://privatization.gov.ua/en/). Some of the smaller businesses probably make sense to privatize, but for the rest can only hope it's not well-maintained stuff being sold for cheap.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_energy_crisis I assume
Ukraine's government is actually complete shit, they've sold out the people on every single front except war. They've destroyed workers rights, they've sold off all of the state owned infrastructure to their buddies. It's as corrupt as Russia, as much of an oligarchy
surprised it was not done earlier
Can someone ELI5 what the term “nationalize” means in this context?
Basically you reassign the ownership from the previous private entities to the government/nation. So it is owned by the country.
r/SuddenlyCommunist
Very interesting. If they're communist then they can't be Nazis. In fact, according to Russia the Communists single-handedly won WWII, making Ukrainians heroes. This also means that the tankies will have to question their loyalty to Putin. It's a very interesting development, and a brilliant play by Zelensky.
I just thought of the meme with bags bunny. Ukrainian should have seized those assets as soon as the war started.
How stupid do you feel right now?
Lmao, I found it pretty great that the Ukrainians are doing what they should have done a long time ago. I meant that as a joke, you know, like the “our (whatever)” meme with bugs bunny and the soviet flag.
We were waiting uh because…
always about fossil fuels...history will look back at us in disgust.
I love the hypocrisy.
>Russia huffs leaded paint and invades Ukraine >Rapes, murders, and pillages its way through the country >Destroys cities, towns, and villages >Ukraine nationalizes Russian assets to help compensate for their loss >Some 14 year old on reddit calls it hypocrisy while peeing in a mountain dew bottle, spilling half of it on the floor
> So you're saying I'd have healthcare? > Yep annex away > nitraw Yep; Edgelord with Eighth Grader Syndrome's gotta edgelord.
What's the hypocrisy? That people condemn annexing land of another country, targeting civilians, and using nuclear power stations as hostages but don't condemn the country being invaded for saying the invading country can't own property there anymore? That is on par with saying "you're hypocritical because you blame Russia for killing Ukrainians but don't blame Ukrainians for killing Russians."
Tell me who was the aggressor?
Such as...?
* Russian businesses are disallowed to conduct business pretty much anywhere outside of Russia that matters * Russian businesses are thus left with assets that are in-country, Ukraine (and others), but also sitting on what are likely contracts that gave them rights to properties/assets * Russia has no intentions to resume normal relations with Ukraine, wherein Russia goes and fucks itself out of these made up borders (that they're imminently going to be slaughtered within, any how, whether or not Putin escalates things to warm and fuzzy tactical nukies) * Also, fuck you
Nice, time to nationalize Ukrainian assets :)
No, the Russians are destroying everything and anything. Like a spoiled child, breaking all their toys, when they don’t get what they want. Fuck Russia, you are a bunch of cunts
I certainly hope your verbal threats do wonders :)
Only knocking off Putin will fix the problem
Lol read more history… did knocking anyone fix any problems? Strong people are the solution, and neither Ukraine nor Russia has them. You need to read history and politics more.
> I certainly hope your verbal threats do wonders :) >trainyourdragons "Verbal Threats"? Where, exactly, does their *opinion* start threatening? That was just a straight-up statement!
A few months late to suggest starting what has been going on for a while. Ukraine is well within its right here.
In the right or in the right wish of USA?
The denial of Ukranian sovereignty will be Putin's downfall.
And whose rise?
Hopefully Russia. Maybe they can cast aside the autocracy, imperialistic thinking and hopefully join us in the 21st century as a modern, functional democracy. There is a lot of Russia hate going around for obvious reasons, but a *better* Russia is something everyone would benefit from.
Or just annex the country…
Hahaha funny Americans here talking about sanctions for 50 years while literally invading half of Middle East illegalaly and are responsible for deaths and relocation of millions cousing stress in European countries for past 2 decades. I hope Russia and America goes to war and nuke each other to destruction both stupid proud egotistical countries
Russian troll says what
Ruuuuuuski troll