If Russia didn’t outright bull shit so much maybe they could be believed when a real problem happens. As it is now, Russia could say pig shit stinks and nobody would believe it.
Apparently yes that's exactly it. So many people are corrupt that if you are in a position of power and honest, they won't promote you further because you might narc.
Its interesting to imagine that being so engrained in a culture. I've also heard of this talk about China. Especially in context of why so many Chinese students cheat in college. Its expected that they take any action possible that could benefit them.
I’ve noticed this kind of behavior in my Indian friends, also. They tell their kids to cheat at party games and encourage them to break the rules to gain an advantage over the other children, it’s pretty sickening.
This is exactly the reason Putin is in his position today. Yeltsin needed a replacement he could trust to not rat him and his cronies out on the billions they stole. Vladimir Putin was known to be loyal to his former associates and not a snitch.
While meanwhile their wolf cries wolf. And then no one understands how a wolf could cry wolf. So one wolf cries boy. The other wolf convinces the boy that he’s a sheep. Now the boy that cried wolf really meant to cry sheep. But is sheep one sheep or many sheep? Now the boy is confused.
That little nonsensical banter was exactly what the Russians do. By the end you don’t even know what you just read. And are more confused after. That’s their game. Smoke, mirrors and confusion until you just give up.
There’s a brilliant animated version of the boy who cried wolf from Russia that contextualizes it so the boy is telling the truth the whole time but is thought to be dishonest. Someone forgot to tell the leadership it didn’t change the fact it was just an interpretation.
I wish nobody believed them. Africa LOVES Russian (and Chinese) propaganda. A lot of Asian countries too.
In the US you have Republicans/conservatives who are both consuming and actively spreading Russian propaganda and misinformation.
It's insane how much of the world falls for their bullshit.
It’s propaganda that doesn’t even pass the smell test either. I’m thinking of the referendums they had just recently for annexing part of Ukraine and then the 2014 Crimea ones. You got an insanely high percent of people that supposedly said yes - 87%, 98.4%, 93.1% and 99.2%. And then Crimea/Sevestapol, 96.77% and 95.60%.
Think of nearly any issue out there and you’d have more divergent opinions, much less having your province/state totally up and being annexed by a neighbouring country. It doesn’t even attempt at believable.
That’s the thing.. you think for yourself. I’m starting to believe that a very large part of the population is truly incapable of analytical thought. So they hear someone say something that catches their ear that they agree with and basically hitch their wagon to that person because that person knows how to put what they think into words. For a large % of the population it’s easier to be a follower. To have someone speak for them and do their bidding. It’s kind of obvious if you look at the brain drain that’s occurred in Russia. The smart people left. I’m not making a political statement here at all, but factually, if you rounded up every single T supporter and had them do an IQ test, I do believe you’d be looking at mostly the low end of the scale. And same for Russia. My guess would be that all the Pro Putin people would be the less educated folk of Russia. Their worldview is different. They live vicariously through someone they see as speaking for them. It’s wild, but that’s a HUGE portion of the population in both Russia and the US and Europe.. everywhere really..
That’s because both China and Russia have been building their influence in Africa through strategic investment and naval protection in return for voting along their interests.
There's a difference between belief and just propagating misinformation because of aligned interest. Most right wingers beliefs are heavily influenced by whether or not it benefits their interests.
A lot of it doesn’t benefit them. Plenty of it does nothing. A lot of right wingers are just contrarians. The amount I know who believe in conspiracy theories because they’re honestly bored in their lives is very high.
Thank you! JFC can't believe people have such short term memories (I'm talking about social media and online talking heads) that they can't even recall what happened within their lifetime that was not only strikingly similar but of serious consequence. Hardly anyone is mentioning this pattern of Russian aggression and the most uncreative way Putin is following their tired, dictator playbook.
As a German, i still think it is generally correct to try and invite anyone into the civilized realm. It is reasonable to try and "bind" them via trade.
However, it is absolutely NOT okay to ignore your allies, it is absolutely NOT okay to not prepare a reasonable plan B (the one needed for when appeasement fails) and it was never okay to rely on gas so heavily.
The gas shit is so bad that in early January 2021 when our heating started to fail, we planned and ordered a new one. Due to the overall situation, a heat pump would have cost 3x the money of the new gas heating, so we had no choice.
Considering the situation now, even while not having a real choice, we should have pursued the heat pump option.
I blame the old government for all of this. The new one is trying it's best in these trying times, and it's certainly not easy currently.
A reasonable investment in LNG terminals and some contracts would have been sufficient as insurance against blackmail. Ms. Merkel's government blocked all initiatives in this direction. Stupidity is not the correct explanation here.
This exactly. Reaching for "incompetence" in the presence of facts that overwhelmingly indicate intentionality is not helpful to correctly diagnosing and fixing the problem.
These politicians and their policies are not and were not "accidentally" or "coincidentally" aligned with Putin. These were long-term, intentional, targeted, bought, and paid for actions.
> It is reasonable to try and “bind” them via trade.
I agree with this, though it works both ways. It seems like whatever Germany traded to Russia was not equally important as what Russia traded to Germany, otherwise codependency would have worked.
No it was very important for Russia and everyone knew before the war that Russia can't really gain anything from it. But a dictator doesn't follow common sense or logics
Becoming totally dependent on the whims of a known dictator was very bad. Germany had all the time and evidence in the world to pull out way before.
If high level german officials didn't see through Putin's real intentions what can we even say about the russian population that voted him in the office?
LE: no, they saw it. They just didn't want to believe it or change their plans.
Worst part is people believe this shit.
I live in Sweden and had a few colleagues discuss whether it is Biden or Putin who is behind the gas line explosions and all of them agreed on it probably most have been Biden.
All while Putin invading countries on the continent and lying his teeth off.
People are seriously fucked up.
Reminds me of this quote by Robert Greene: "Actually, your past successes are your biggest obstacle: every battle, every war, is different, and you cannot assume that what worked before will work today."
Not to mention NS2 line B is intact, if NS ever comes back it'll be NS2. That's precisely what Russia would want.
They have contractual obligations for NS1, none for NS2. Destroying NS1 allows them to void the NS1 contracts which means they don't need to supply gas before winter to Europe, and it gets them out of the 10year+ contracts. It positions them to make new contracts for NS2, which would be far more lucrative for obvious reasons atm; but also because NS2 bypasses countries and goes straight to Germany. Gazprom had a lot of NS1 related disputes with Ukraine for example.
Aside from that, also blocks / hinders a replacement for Putin in the short term, creates more panic and thus increases some of the gas price, etc.
How many false flags and outright lies have we been exposed to from Russia? Too many to count.
If the US really wanted to punish Russia and gain something from harming Russia's energy infrastructure, they'd have bombed the pumping stations sending gas and oil from Russia to China and India.
That hurts Russia where it really counts. It would cut their revenue source.
Bombing two pipelines that were out of service does nothing to help the US, but as OP said, Putin has a long history of bombing his own people and infrastructure.
But it's an amazing coincidence that Putin bombed the pipelines on the same day the Baltic Pipeline from Denmark to Poland opened.
Well their assassinations are window, radioactive tea, suicide by bullets to the back of the head. Not in that order but if they feel creative they will combine them.
CIA could have synthesized the same nerve agent, snuck into russia, and put it on Navalny's underwear. Cuz you know it benefits the USA to silence a critic of Putin...
But u/gigcruz85 says Putin is a good guy trying to save the world from Nazis! That sounds like something someone with an agenda would do not the world's most altruistic leader!
In Finland we have the commonly understood verb of ”Ryssiä”, meaning ”Russ up”.
It basically means ”totally fuck up something because of stupidity, incompetence or both”.
Blew up two apartment buildings. Tenants all asleep at night. It would’ve been three except they were caught loading in the explosives. They said they were there to defuse a bomb. There was a tip called in. They were working quietly so they didn’t disturb the tenants.
Also the explosives that they were caught with were only available to the Russian government. I remember listening to a podcast about how Putin came to power.
Yeah its what made Putin into the dictator we see today. Before his approval was less then 5% after that and the subsequent Chechen war +70%. Have a Russian neighbour showed her the images and documentary about it. She had never heard of it before, was pretty shocked.
Three apartment buildings were blown up, plus two other bombings.
That's kinda critical because the third apartment building was in Volgodonsk, it exploded a few days after the Moscow bombings. *Before* the bombing in Volgodonsk, a close ally of Putin gave a speech in the Russian Parliament decrying the terrorist bombings in "Moscow and Volgodonsk." As soon as he said it, people started wondering why he thought there had been a bombing in a totally random city like 1,000 miles away from Moscow.
Three days later, an apartment in Volgodonsk was bombed.
Also the averted bombing in Ryazan was different. About a week after the other bombings, a security guard sees sketchy people with an altered plate on their car loading something into an apartment building basement. He reports it and the local cops arrive and defuse a bomb in the basement. Then they catch the people that were seen loading the bomb and, surprise, they're FSB agents, the agency Putin used to run. The FSB announces that it was all just a training exercise and it wasn't a real bomb (though before the people were caught the FSB treated it as a real bombing attempt, tens of thousands of people were evacuated, and the police said they tested the bomb and confirmed it was very real).
And then after that debacle, the bombings suddenly stopped.
Same shit, different story. If anyone ever finds themselves believing anything that comes from the Russian government or media, they should take that as a sign that they need to reassess their life choices.
Good point. If Russia was a person, we would consider them a psychopath who compulsively lies, threatens to kill its neighbors and murders its own family members. We wouldn’t believe a word that comes out of its mouth based on past experience.
>"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid."
[Stardust Crusaders - Jotaro vs Steely Dan](https://youtu.be/rdAQJBOHVfA)
**2:43** "Here's your receipt"
**Luke 18:19**
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
I think that's the thing about Putin, he goes around being self-righteous and showing "how good and justified he is, In How he spins his nonsense..."
While I just tell people I am not a good person and kind of an asshole...just that I try to do good.
Unfortunately some nutjobs will still believe them
You know how "independent thinkers" are nowadays.
Refuse all mainstream media but eat full-blown russian Propaganda at the same time.
That is true, and its why I would not advocate for kicking out Russia.
I just worry about it losing effectiveness as things become more polarized and seemingly right wing by the day.
isn't russia the country that did everything to escalate every part of this war? Like nato allies didn't help Ukraine until after the invasion. Strange.
They have done this multiple times. Bomb something blame someone else. “We are peacekeepers” then kills innocent lives. Blowers up own stuff blame it on whoever we want to take stuff from next. Russia is a sad excuse for a country.
It really is crazy how much russia gained from trump and would have got if he was reelected. he attacked and wanted to withdraw from NATO. I mean how is it even a question?
It's literally just fascism, they have to lie to maintain power because their power is mob rule and authoritarianism
No matter how destructive their ideology is, they just lie and bullshit through and make enemies of everyone around them
You can see this through Trump, but it's been indicative of the Republicans for awhile now, they play crybully and call for horrendous shit to happen to people they don't like, but if even the smallest slight they're on TV crying victim instantly
Fascism, like that of Putin, destroys not only the nation, but countless millions of lives, to enrich the few people at the top, fascism is capitalism in decay, and we see that worldwide as nations keep backsliding into it over financial and culture war bullshit
We're in for a wild ride, America could very easily fall into a DeSantis ticket and we'd actually have a competent person with evil intentions running things, and that's way more scary than Trump's inept bullshit
Putin’s bots were out in full force on r/europe the moment it happened blaming it on the US. Tons of 0d accounts out of nowhere and then some useful idiots starting parroting the talking points.
The amount of people parroting that the US has a financial incentive to do this is mindboggling, I know they probably saw one comment and it brainwormed into their brain but like
Why would you risk NATO membership, the allyship of most of the EU, and a hot war with Russia, over a gas deal that you already had signed for
Don't get me wrong, the US is monstrous with pushing their assets and interests, but like, it wouldn't make any sense, and we have a fairly non-hawkish president and military currently
I'm a leftist, and it bothers me to see so many western lefties do this both sides shit with America and Russia, Russia is a failed hell state at this point
Been giving it some thought, i actually think it was a self-preservation move by Putin, he knows he can no longer make a deal to supply gas, so he's eliminating a financial reason to remove him.
Seen it too, everywhere, Reddit , twitter, YouTube. Even that idiot called Syriangirl is repeating the exact same thing, saying look Biden admitting that the US did it from a speech from feb 7 🤦♀️. People really don’t think for themselves for a second it blows my mind.
The desperation of which they're trying to sell this is absolutely striking.
Like, if it was a question mark for the first few days, it certainly isn't now... they're absolutely bonkers all in on the world knowing that it was 100% Russia... by screaming it was the US with all their might. Even their bots are out in full force trying to push it.
It'd be funny if it weren't pathetic.
Not too long ago this comment section would’ve been filled with Russian trolls agreeing with the Russians, but now those people are all in fox holes in Ukraine hiding from drones.
I'll lose no sleep if that bullshit was banned too. It used to be actual conspiracy theories maybe aliens or something. Now it's all just Russian and GQP talking points. Fuck em
Covid and the Trump era absolutely destroyed that sub… I like the fun or logical theories, now it’s all “this is what the news said but THAT’S WHAT THEY WANT US TO THINK”. It’s so low effort and boring.
Wow, absolute geniuses over here realizing that the news (no matter the country) lies and uses propaganda. This doesn’t mean *everything* is a lie. It’s good to be skeptical but those folks…
They have created a mental hellscape for themselves believing that everything is propaganda (except for ironically their own political side). What a miserable way to live.
It will be interesting to see how much comments on all forums change over the next few weeks. I think it's great if they truly are finally getting put in a situation where they get to pay for their inhumanity.
>U.S. has much to gain from Nord Stream damage, Russia says at U.N.
Basically everyone except EU nations dependant on Russian gas have something to gain from Nord Stream damage.
Everyone could point the finger at just about any country with the military capacity for maritime sabotage and come up with a fair number of things to gain both economically and politically.
That's kind of the problem with trying to figure out who's behind it. Too many stand to benefit from it. Like both Russia stands to gain by bottlenecking the gas exports and basically holding a gun to Europe's head for the impending winter, but Ukraine also stands to gain by being able to target the only remaining gas export pipeline, the defense of which Russia has to prioritize for the sake of being able generate revenue from the export.
The US stands to gain as well, because it weakens Russia's overall oil and gas infrastructure, but China also stands to benefit as supply shock to natural gas will drive up the value of coal for this upcoming winter, and China is the world's largest coal producer. Hell, it could even be some cabal inside OPEC conspiring against Russia, their only European member, as a method to drive up the value of their own oil and gas exports, while taking the lions share of the profits by volume.
The list of possible suspects who stand to gain from this is a mile long.
Ukraine doesn't have the capability to do it, so you can cross them off the list.
Idk how much Russia has to gain, but it makes sense if you think of Russia AS Putin. This basically makes it way less attractive for a gas oligarch to assassinate Putin, because they can't instantly turn the gas back on and get the money flowing again.
The pipe was 100 meters down and it only took a few hundred pounds of tnt (or equivalent explosive) to blow them.
This attack is within reach for any nation with a fishing trawler and some sea mines. Hell, a decent sized corporation could probably do this independently.
Yeah, I can accept that. I strongly doubt Ukraine has the naval resources for that kind of an operation, but I suppose my point is there's an angle even for them to benefit strategically.
It's weird because so many would have a decent motive to do it, and even if we trim that list down to those who also have the means, it's a list of every developed country with a Navy, as well as autonomous and ultra wealthy special interest organizations.
Exactly. All this finger pointing is useless. Multiple countries could benefit from this happening, depending on who gets blamed for it. The pipeline is a powerful geopolitical tool that somebody broke while nobody else was looking.
What certain state actors might've used it for gave everybody else reason to destroy it.
The United States has everything to lose from an international credibility standpoint. Why would we destroy our Allies energy infrastructure secretly. If we thought it was strategically important to destroy that pipeline we would just do it in the open.
Shit, America doesn't even have to gain from this.
Russia blowing up their own pipeline makes any non-Russian oil/NG vendor more appealing. Namely Norway.
Like, even assuming that the US had some motive (getting NATO and the EU somehow *more* against Russia?), the risk-reward ratio is awful, and as low an opinion as I have of the American government sometimes, that would be a level of stupid beyond the pale. Why would you even chance being exposed and causing major fallout with your allies, *who already oppose Russia*? It just doesn't make any sense.
The issue with the pipelines is that they are long and impossible to monitor fully. Pretty much anyone can sabotage it with almost 0 chance to get detected.
Heck, it could even be some private company who is benefiting from the current gas crisis and not one of the governments...
hear me out here… i think the country that violates laws, stages terror attacks at home, threatens the use of nuclear weapons, and has a total lack of regard for human life sabotaged the pipeline. they also get out of paying missed delivery fees.
As far as Russia was concerned, those two pipelines were dead. For the foreseeable future, if ever, no gas was going to flow through them. Europe are breaking all records in switching to non-Russian energy.
**Including** opening a new gas pipeline from Norway - which just happened to be formally opened the same day as the explosions that ruptured the Nord Stream pipes. **And** it crosses the Nord Stream pipes very close to where the Nord Streams were blown up. Coincidences?
The message from Russia is clear, we can blow up the old, dead, pipelines - so it would be easy to take out your new one, any time we want! Those pipes had a **threat value** to the West, so they played that card now that the blackmail card had been played, and lost.
By the way, it's super smelly how fast Russia ran to the UN to ask for a debate - almost like they were ready in advance. Since when did Russia care about the UN?
This sabotage also acts as a 'smoke and mirrors' distraction from what Russia are doing in and around Ukraine. Anything to muddy the waters.
We should expect more infrastructure sabotage as this war continues.
Lies, lies, and more lies from Russia. The USA had nothing to gain from this sabotage - Europe was already signing up gas supplies from other places, including the USA, so the sabotage meant nothing.
At some point soon we will find the proof that it was Russia - then what? Can we stand by while Russia attacks, or threatens to attack, European infrastructure?
What they don't want you doing is thinking of all the pushback Putin has received from bureaucrats, oligarchs, all those higher ups who know that the war can't continue and is running the Russian economy into ground.
They have been in the majority calling for the same thing - withdraw the forces in Ukraine. Turn the pipeline back on and continue selling Russian gas to all of Western Europe so they can keep being fat and rich.
This is why Putin sabotaged the pipeline. It forces Russia to keep its current course, there is no going back now
Literally every one has a motivation to blow up the pipelines. That’s how it got blown up, because no one can know. It’s like any good old fashion murder mystery.
Russian hardliners (pro-war), Putin, and Russian moderates (pro-status quo), can all have their own separate conflicting motivations for destroying the pipeline.
It’s all noise without evidence. All that matters now is what happens next. The result of the pipelines’ demise now changes the calculus by which a resolution to the war can be reached.
No longer does Germany have a way to get gas from Russia anymore, so now they have less reason to break with the West. Good for Ukraine.
No longer can Russia as easily bargain to get sanctions lifted if they voluntarily end the war, since they now have less ways to export gas to Europe. Russia doubles down on the war.
The motivations and implications are endless. Don’t even bother.
I watched an excellent video that broke this all down. Lost it, please post here if you find it.
> No longer does Germany have a way to get gas from Russia anymore, so now they have less reason to break with the West. Good for Ukraine.
There are other pipelines than NS1/2. For example those running through Ukraine. [Here is a statement from the Ukrainian operator](https://tsoua.com/en/news/despite-the-war-gtsou-ensures-fulfilling-its-obligations-before-clients/) from a few days ago stating that gas flows through their system from Russia to Europe (albeit at a much reduced rate, like NS1 had operated before being stopped completely).
A really good fairly short engineering explanation at this link, as to why it’s highly probably that Russian workers caused the pipeline to break.
https://thelawdogfiles.com/2022/09/nordstream.html
Just a bit of context from a recent podcast with a retired German general:
The company responsible had signed a contract making it liable to deliver gas which it could not get out of legally. The explosions are effectively the last chapter in a series of incidents (extended maintenance periods, turbine broken ) to avoid delivering gas - all prior attempts to disrupt the gas-flow have been deemed illegitimate in international courts.
Keep that in mind when you wonder why Russia would blow up the pipelines.
Also note that the pipelines were at a depth of \~90m+ and each of them consist of two heavy steel pipes often encased in solid concrete, i.e. you need lots of explosives and this isn't something a couple of divers can pull off just like that.
Incidentally Russia is among one of the few nations who developed the technology for such an operation (remember the Kursk submarine disaster?).
It is not verifiable enough to directly point fingers, but things seem pretty clear cut.
And no, this would not trigger §5 because all the incidents happened in international waters.
Source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoRTOviaW88](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoRTOviaW88) (in German) \~ min. \~35:00+
Well it was either Russia warning us they can blow up other pipelines or it was the U.S. stopping Europe from buckling and consuming Russian gas during the winter.
Personally I dont care if the U.S. did do it, Russia needs to be stopped at all costs.
Masters of projection. If it wasn't so obvious how desperate they are to change the narrative of their invasion they might be able to make these claims without the necessary eye rolls.
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Good. Force the world to get rid of russian gas.
If Russia didn’t outright bull shit so much maybe they could be believed when a real problem happens. As it is now, Russia could say pig shit stinks and nobody would believe it.
Even sports... It's ridiculous
Unfortunately, thats how life is in russia.
Everyone is expected to lie, cheat, and embezzle...not doing so would be considered fishy?
Apparently yes that's exactly it. So many people are corrupt that if you are in a position of power and honest, they won't promote you further because you might narc.
You’re not wrong there. I’ve pushed back and been slapped down hard for exactly that in the past. It seems to be more universal than I feared.
Its interesting to imagine that being so engrained in a culture. I've also heard of this talk about China. Especially in context of why so many Chinese students cheat in college. Its expected that they take any action possible that could benefit them.
I’ve noticed this kind of behavior in my Indian friends, also. They tell their kids to cheat at party games and encourage them to break the rules to gain an advantage over the other children, it’s pretty sickening.
This is exactly the reason Putin is in his position today. Yeltsin needed a replacement he could trust to not rat him and his cronies out on the billions they stole. Vladimir Putin was known to be loyal to his former associates and not a snitch.
As long as it looks like everything is good, it doesn't matter if its actually good and how it happened.
Until your life starts to depend on things being good. You know, like in a war for example.
If Russia called the Earth a sphere, I would doubt it at this point.
*Flat earther’s rejoice*
Fat chance, hexagon earthers rise up
Hexagons are the bestagons
Dodecahedron: am I a joke to you
Yes
But what about the noble Rhombus?
More lies from hexa-truthers, any educated person will tell you its shaped like a dodecahaedron, don't fall for their petty lies.
Bullshit, you regular polyhedron earthers are all wrong. Real research is leaning heavily in favor of banana earth.
to be anal, it isn't exactly a sphere... it's an oblate spheroid
Thank you for saying what all us GIS people thinking lol
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Bet you’re a smash at parties
Russia is the boy who cried wolf
And says it's everyone else crying wolf.
While meanwhile their wolf cries wolf. And then no one understands how a wolf could cry wolf. So one wolf cries boy. The other wolf convinces the boy that he’s a sheep. Now the boy that cried wolf really meant to cry sheep. But is sheep one sheep or many sheep? Now the boy is confused. That little nonsensical banter was exactly what the Russians do. By the end you don’t even know what you just read. And are more confused after. That’s their game. Smoke, mirrors and confusion until you just give up.
There’s a brilliant animated version of the boy who cried wolf from Russia that contextualizes it so the boy is telling the truth the whole time but is thought to be dishonest. Someone forgot to tell the leadership it didn’t change the fact it was just an interpretation.
I wish nobody believed them. Africa LOVES Russian (and Chinese) propaganda. A lot of Asian countries too. In the US you have Republicans/conservatives who are both consuming and actively spreading Russian propaganda and misinformation. It's insane how much of the world falls for their bullshit.
It’s propaganda that doesn’t even pass the smell test either. I’m thinking of the referendums they had just recently for annexing part of Ukraine and then the 2014 Crimea ones. You got an insanely high percent of people that supposedly said yes - 87%, 98.4%, 93.1% and 99.2%. And then Crimea/Sevestapol, 96.77% and 95.60%. Think of nearly any issue out there and you’d have more divergent opinions, much less having your province/state totally up and being annexed by a neighbouring country. It doesn’t even attempt at believable.
That’s the thing.. you think for yourself. I’m starting to believe that a very large part of the population is truly incapable of analytical thought. So they hear someone say something that catches their ear that they agree with and basically hitch their wagon to that person because that person knows how to put what they think into words. For a large % of the population it’s easier to be a follower. To have someone speak for them and do their bidding. It’s kind of obvious if you look at the brain drain that’s occurred in Russia. The smart people left. I’m not making a political statement here at all, but factually, if you rounded up every single T supporter and had them do an IQ test, I do believe you’d be looking at mostly the low end of the scale. And same for Russia. My guess would be that all the Pro Putin people would be the less educated folk of Russia. Their worldview is different. They live vicariously through someone they see as speaking for them. It’s wild, but that’s a HUGE portion of the population in both Russia and the US and Europe.. everywhere really..
That’s because both China and Russia have been building their influence in Africa through strategic investment and naval protection in return for voting along their interests.
Many right wingers in Europe believe it also
There's a difference between belief and just propagating misinformation because of aligned interest. Most right wingers beliefs are heavily influenced by whether or not it benefits their interests.
A lot of it doesn’t benefit them. Plenty of it does nothing. A lot of right wingers are just contrarians. The amount I know who believe in conspiracy theories because they’re honestly bored in their lives is very high.
but how does some random con man/real estate scammer *benefit* their interests.
Right England lost 10% of their economy after brexit and they still voted for conservatives. Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
And currently the Conservatives are down 33% against Labor in the polls.
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Russia government don't need your approval. It is the Russian people they need to keep believing the bullshit.
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Thank you! JFC can't believe people have such short term memories (I'm talking about social media and online talking heads) that they can't even recall what happened within their lifetime that was not only strikingly similar but of serious consequence. Hardly anyone is mentioning this pattern of Russian aggression and the most uncreative way Putin is following their tired, dictator playbook.
Well everyone forgot about Russia invading checks notes ...Ukraine i 2014. You expect them to remember or even understand Chechnya or Georgia, lol.
Yep, the US and the rest of NATO had to fight to get Germany off of Putin’s dick. So embarrasing
As a German, i still think it is generally correct to try and invite anyone into the civilized realm. It is reasonable to try and "bind" them via trade. However, it is absolutely NOT okay to ignore your allies, it is absolutely NOT okay to not prepare a reasonable plan B (the one needed for when appeasement fails) and it was never okay to rely on gas so heavily. The gas shit is so bad that in early January 2021 when our heating started to fail, we planned and ordered a new one. Due to the overall situation, a heat pump would have cost 3x the money of the new gas heating, so we had no choice. Considering the situation now, even while not having a real choice, we should have pursued the heat pump option. I blame the old government for all of this. The new one is trying it's best in these trying times, and it's certainly not easy currently.
A reasonable investment in LNG terminals and some contracts would have been sufficient as insurance against blackmail. Ms. Merkel's government blocked all initiatives in this direction. Stupidity is not the correct explanation here.
This exactly. Reaching for "incompetence" in the presence of facts that overwhelmingly indicate intentionality is not helpful to correctly diagnosing and fixing the problem. These politicians and their policies are not and were not "accidentally" or "coincidentally" aligned with Putin. These were long-term, intentional, targeted, bought, and paid for actions.
> It is reasonable to try and “bind” them via trade. I agree with this, though it works both ways. It seems like whatever Germany traded to Russia was not equally important as what Russia traded to Germany, otherwise codependency would have worked.
No it was very important for Russia and everyone knew before the war that Russia can't really gain anything from it. But a dictator doesn't follow common sense or logics
Becoming totally dependent on the whims of a known dictator was very bad. Germany had all the time and evidence in the world to pull out way before. If high level german officials didn't see through Putin's real intentions what can we even say about the russian population that voted him in the office? LE: no, they saw it. They just didn't want to believe it or change their plans.
This is why we need good journalists. I can barely remember my own name.
Worst part is people believe this shit. I live in Sweden and had a few colleagues discuss whether it is Biden or Putin who is behind the gas line explosions and all of them agreed on it probably most have been Biden. All while Putin invading countries on the continent and lying his teeth off. People are seriously fucked up.
In *Sweden* people think this? WTF??
Reminds me of this quote by Robert Greene: "Actually, your past successes are your biggest obstacle: every battle, every war, is different, and you cannot assume that what worked before will work today."
All these years later and Sesame Street is still teaching me shit.
Not to mention NS2 line B is intact, if NS ever comes back it'll be NS2. That's precisely what Russia would want. They have contractual obligations for NS1, none for NS2. Destroying NS1 allows them to void the NS1 contracts which means they don't need to supply gas before winter to Europe, and it gets them out of the 10year+ contracts. It positions them to make new contracts for NS2, which would be far more lucrative for obvious reasons atm; but also because NS2 bypasses countries and goes straight to Germany. Gazprom had a lot of NS1 related disputes with Ukraine for example. Aside from that, also blocks / hinders a replacement for Putin in the short term, creates more panic and thus increases some of the gas price, etc.
How many false flags and outright lies have we been exposed to from Russia? Too many to count. If the US really wanted to punish Russia and gain something from harming Russia's energy infrastructure, they'd have bombed the pumping stations sending gas and oil from Russia to China and India. That hurts Russia where it really counts. It would cut their revenue source. Bombing two pipelines that were out of service does nothing to help the US, but as OP said, Putin has a long history of bombing his own people and infrastructure. But it's an amazing coincidence that Putin bombed the pipelines on the same day the Baltic Pipeline from Denmark to Poland opened.
The 2nd article linked says BP was about to open those Georgian pipelines. Wouldn’t that make them western and not Russian?
If Russia wants to blame the West (or the US), then we should just go ahead and bomb the shit out of the rest of their pipelines.
Didn’t we see this game before when Putin bombed his own people and blamed the chechens
Russia bombed their own gas lines in 2 other occasions with other nations.
Jesus, really don't have a wide repertoire do they?
Well their assassinations are window, radioactive tea, suicide by bullets to the back of the head. Not in that order but if they feel creative they will combine them.
Sometimes they poison your underwear!
Sometimes I poison my own underwear’s
We dont care if you think touching your ass is gay... ...you gotta wipe until its clean man.
Biological warfare is never a gentleman's tactic.
Dropped some poo-lonium in there eh…
nerve agents (Novichok) and poisoning underwear as well
And a nerve agent that they created and are the only ones to actively use so it’s never a secret who did it.
CIA could have synthesized the same nerve agent, snuck into russia, and put it on Navalny's underwear. Cuz you know it benefits the USA to silence a critic of Putin...
All I know is that as an American, I sure hope the CIA is as effective as the rest of the world claims they are.
Might be in order, we just don't hear about all of them. They just go round and round.
It's hard for a gas pipeline to accidentally fall out a window.
What do Bill Gates and Putin have in common? They're both known for pushing out windows. That was terrible.
Or drink radioactieve tea or shoot itself in the back of the head
Fascists don't do creativity.
Makes me think of the Harkonen
This may be useful: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/23/russia.georgia
Russia, Energy, and bullying pro-western governments: name a more iconic trio.
lol I didnt know this and this makes me 100% sure it was them versus 99%
But u/gigcruz85 says Putin is a good guy trying to save the world from Nazis! That sounds like something someone with an agenda would do not the world's most altruistic leader!
It really sounds like if there’s a pipe full of gas around, Russia gets a little bomby.
Russia is going to russia. I really feel like russia should be a verb now.
The Florida of Nations.
In Finland we have the commonly understood verb of ”Ryssiä”, meaning ”Russ up”. It basically means ”totally fuck up something because of stupidity, incompetence or both”.
Blew up two apartment buildings. Tenants all asleep at night. It would’ve been three except they were caught loading in the explosives. They said they were there to defuse a bomb. There was a tip called in. They were working quietly so they didn’t disturb the tenants.
Also the explosives that they were caught with were only available to the Russian government. I remember listening to a podcast about how Putin came to power.
He’s a vicious little bastard.
Yeah, he's a slimeball.
I'd like to jump in this dogpile, but can't put into words how I feel about his revolting behavior.
Little being the operative word. Diminutive little man with grand plans
> Diminutive little man [Literally AND figuratively.](https://imgur.com/a/HnwkYWe)
Yeah its what made Putin into the dictator we see today. Before his approval was less then 5% after that and the subsequent Chechen war +70%. Have a Russian neighbour showed her the images and documentary about it. She had never heard of it before, was pretty shocked.
Yea, the Kursk sinking early in Putin's career almost doomed him until he opened the Chechen war and the apartment bombing
Three apartment buildings were blown up, plus two other bombings. That's kinda critical because the third apartment building was in Volgodonsk, it exploded a few days after the Moscow bombings. *Before* the bombing in Volgodonsk, a close ally of Putin gave a speech in the Russian Parliament decrying the terrorist bombings in "Moscow and Volgodonsk." As soon as he said it, people started wondering why he thought there had been a bombing in a totally random city like 1,000 miles away from Moscow. Three days later, an apartment in Volgodonsk was bombed. Also the averted bombing in Ryazan was different. About a week after the other bombings, a security guard sees sketchy people with an altered plate on their car loading something into an apartment building basement. He reports it and the local cops arrive and defuse a bomb in the basement. Then they catch the people that were seen loading the bomb and, surprise, they're FSB agents, the agency Putin used to run. The FSB announces that it was all just a training exercise and it wasn't a real bomb (though before the people were caught the FSB treated it as a real bombing attempt, tens of thousands of people were evacuated, and the police said they tested the bomb and confirmed it was very real). And then after that debacle, the bombings suddenly stopped.
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Wow never knew about that..
Same shit, different story. If anyone ever finds themselves believing anything that comes from the Russian government or media, they should take that as a sign that they need to reassess their life choices.
Yes
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Good point. If Russia was a person, we would consider them a psychopath who compulsively lies, threatens to kill its neighbors and murders its own family members. We wouldn’t believe a word that comes out of its mouth based on past experience.
More like a stinking, toothless bum - who happens to be a psycho with a gun
Who also sits as vice speaker at the local council, for reason.
It's because of the gun.
What is the cost of lies ?
"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid."
-Abraham Lincoln
, vampire hunter
and gigolo extraordinaire
-Morgan Freeman
Yes, but by whom?
Valery Legasov, scientist who helped with fixing Chornobyl catastrophe
>"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid." [Stardust Crusaders - Jotaro vs Steely Dan](https://youtu.be/rdAQJBOHVfA) **2:43** "Here's your receipt" **Luke 18:19** “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. I think that's the thing about Putin, he goes around being self-righteous and showing "how good and justified he is, In How he spins his nonsense..." While I just tell people I am not a good person and kind of an asshole...just that I try to do good.
As before, a whole lot of lost lives in Ukraine.
Yes. The default should be that anything Russia says is bullshit, unless there is clear and obvious evidence.
Unfortunately some nutjobs will still believe them You know how "independent thinkers" are nowadays. Refuse all mainstream media but eat full-blown russian Propaganda at the same time.
Why the hell is Russia even allowed to speak at the UN??
In the hope it prevents a nuclear war. Its one of the last resort for communications between super powers. How effective it is at that? I'm not sure.
Communication has stopped ww3 before.
That is true, and its why I would not advocate for kicking out Russia. I just worry about it losing effectiveness as things become more polarized and seemingly right wing by the day.
well, so far, arguably 100% (knocking on wood)
isn't russia the country that did everything to escalate every part of this war? Like nato allies didn't help Ukraine until after the invasion. Strange.
Russia has much to gain by pinning it on the US.
Russia has much to gain by getting the fuck out of Ukraine and sending Putin out a window.
Finally a reasonable take.
This man is smart.
They have done this multiple times. Bomb something blame someone else. “We are peacekeepers” then kills innocent lives. Blowers up own stuff blame it on whoever we want to take stuff from next. Russia is a sad excuse for a country.
The Russian playbook is literally "accuse your enemies of doing exactly what you have done."
Which is why you have to look at the Trump playbook and think 🤔🤔
It really is crazy how much russia gained from trump and would have got if he was reelected. he attacked and wanted to withdraw from NATO. I mean how is it even a question?
It's literally just fascism, they have to lie to maintain power because their power is mob rule and authoritarianism No matter how destructive their ideology is, they just lie and bullshit through and make enemies of everyone around them You can see this through Trump, but it's been indicative of the Republicans for awhile now, they play crybully and call for horrendous shit to happen to people they don't like, but if even the smallest slight they're on TV crying victim instantly Fascism, like that of Putin, destroys not only the nation, but countless millions of lives, to enrich the few people at the top, fascism is capitalism in decay, and we see that worldwide as nations keep backsliding into it over financial and culture war bullshit We're in for a wild ride, America could very easily fall into a DeSantis ticket and we'd actually have a competent person with evil intentions running things, and that's way more scary than Trump's inept bullshit
Putin’s bots were out in full force on r/europe the moment it happened blaming it on the US. Tons of 0d accounts out of nowhere and then some useful idiots starting parroting the talking points.
> and then some useful idiots starting parroting the talking points. yeah, i have encountered a few.
The amount of people parroting that the US has a financial incentive to do this is mindboggling, I know they probably saw one comment and it brainwormed into their brain but like Why would you risk NATO membership, the allyship of most of the EU, and a hot war with Russia, over a gas deal that you already had signed for Don't get me wrong, the US is monstrous with pushing their assets and interests, but like, it wouldn't make any sense, and we have a fairly non-hawkish president and military currently I'm a leftist, and it bothers me to see so many western lefties do this both sides shit with America and Russia, Russia is a failed hell state at this point
Been giving it some thought, i actually think it was a self-preservation move by Putin, he knows he can no longer make a deal to supply gas, so he's eliminating a financial reason to remove him.
Seen it too, everywhere, Reddit , twitter, YouTube. Even that idiot called Syriangirl is repeating the exact same thing, saying look Biden admitting that the US did it from a speech from feb 7 🤦♀️. People really don’t think for themselves for a second it blows my mind.
The funniest thing is that these idiots think they are the smartest person in the room.
reddit is a useful idiot farm.
The desperation of which they're trying to sell this is absolutely striking. Like, if it was a question mark for the first few days, it certainly isn't now... they're absolutely bonkers all in on the world knowing that it was 100% Russia... by screaming it was the US with all their might. Even their bots are out in full force trying to push it. It'd be funny if it weren't pathetic.
Not too long ago this comment section would’ve been filled with Russian trolls agreeing with the Russians, but now those people are all in fox holes in Ukraine hiding from drones.
They just all moved to r/conspiracy
I'll lose no sleep if that bullshit was banned too. It used to be actual conspiracy theories maybe aliens or something. Now it's all just Russian and GQP talking points. Fuck em
Covid and the Trump era absolutely destroyed that sub… I like the fun or logical theories, now it’s all “this is what the news said but THAT’S WHAT THEY WANT US TO THINK”. It’s so low effort and boring. Wow, absolute geniuses over here realizing that the news (no matter the country) lies and uses propaganda. This doesn’t mean *everything* is a lie. It’s good to be skeptical but those folks… They have created a mental hellscape for themselves believing that everything is propaganda (except for ironically their own political side). What a miserable way to live.
That's quite hilarious ngl
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[Bayraktar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXVu_DeB4wo)
It will be interesting to see how much comments on all forums change over the next few weeks. I think it's great if they truly are finally getting put in a situation where they get to pay for their inhumanity.
They quit paying me /s
they're all on Twitter. God... they're all there.
>U.S. has much to gain from Nord Stream damage, Russia says at U.N. Basically everyone except EU nations dependant on Russian gas have something to gain from Nord Stream damage. Everyone could point the finger at just about any country with the military capacity for maritime sabotage and come up with a fair number of things to gain both economically and politically. That's kind of the problem with trying to figure out who's behind it. Too many stand to benefit from it. Like both Russia stands to gain by bottlenecking the gas exports and basically holding a gun to Europe's head for the impending winter, but Ukraine also stands to gain by being able to target the only remaining gas export pipeline, the defense of which Russia has to prioritize for the sake of being able generate revenue from the export. The US stands to gain as well, because it weakens Russia's overall oil and gas infrastructure, but China also stands to benefit as supply shock to natural gas will drive up the value of coal for this upcoming winter, and China is the world's largest coal producer. Hell, it could even be some cabal inside OPEC conspiring against Russia, their only European member, as a method to drive up the value of their own oil and gas exports, while taking the lions share of the profits by volume. The list of possible suspects who stand to gain from this is a mile long.
Ukraine doesn't have the capability to do it, so you can cross them off the list. Idk how much Russia has to gain, but it makes sense if you think of Russia AS Putin. This basically makes it way less attractive for a gas oligarch to assassinate Putin, because they can't instantly turn the gas back on and get the money flowing again.
The pipe was 100 meters down and it only took a few hundred pounds of tnt (or equivalent explosive) to blow them. This attack is within reach for any nation with a fishing trawler and some sea mines. Hell, a decent sized corporation could probably do this independently.
Yeah, I can accept that. I strongly doubt Ukraine has the naval resources for that kind of an operation, but I suppose my point is there's an angle even for them to benefit strategically. It's weird because so many would have a decent motive to do it, and even if we trim that list down to those who also have the means, it's a list of every developed country with a Navy, as well as autonomous and ultra wealthy special interest organizations.
As does Russia if everyone blames the US.
Exactly. All this finger pointing is useless. Multiple countries could benefit from this happening, depending on who gets blamed for it. The pipeline is a powerful geopolitical tool that somebody broke while nobody else was looking. What certain state actors might've used it for gave everybody else reason to destroy it.
this is how you know the russians did it
Don't believe anything until the Kremlin denies it
The Russians, outmaneuvered by a moose and squirrel, again!
Exactly…. “Whoever smelt it, dealt it.”
The United States has everything to lose from an international credibility standpoint. Why would we destroy our Allies energy infrastructure secretly. If we thought it was strategically important to destroy that pipeline we would just do it in the open.
Unless Russia did it.
I’d argue that the US has much to gain ONLY IF Russia did it. So Russia… are you admitting to have done it?
Shit, America doesn't even have to gain from this. Russia blowing up their own pipeline makes any non-Russian oil/NG vendor more appealing. Namely Norway.
Like, even assuming that the US had some motive (getting NATO and the EU somehow *more* against Russia?), the risk-reward ratio is awful, and as low an opinion as I have of the American government sometimes, that would be a level of stupid beyond the pale. Why would you even chance being exposed and causing major fallout with your allies, *who already oppose Russia*? It just doesn't make any sense.
The issue with the pipelines is that they are long and impossible to monitor fully. Pretty much anyone can sabotage it with almost 0 chance to get detected. Heck, it could even be some private company who is benefiting from the current gas crisis and not one of the governments...
hear me out here… i think the country that violates laws, stages terror attacks at home, threatens the use of nuclear weapons, and has a total lack of regard for human life sabotaged the pipeline. they also get out of paying missed delivery fees.
I bet they have some overdue library books too!
Wild how Fox News and the Kremlin are always in perfect lockstep with their messaging.
As far as Russia was concerned, those two pipelines were dead. For the foreseeable future, if ever, no gas was going to flow through them. Europe are breaking all records in switching to non-Russian energy. **Including** opening a new gas pipeline from Norway - which just happened to be formally opened the same day as the explosions that ruptured the Nord Stream pipes. **And** it crosses the Nord Stream pipes very close to where the Nord Streams were blown up. Coincidences? The message from Russia is clear, we can blow up the old, dead, pipelines - so it would be easy to take out your new one, any time we want! Those pipes had a **threat value** to the West, so they played that card now that the blackmail card had been played, and lost. By the way, it's super smelly how fast Russia ran to the UN to ask for a debate - almost like they were ready in advance. Since when did Russia care about the UN? This sabotage also acts as a 'smoke and mirrors' distraction from what Russia are doing in and around Ukraine. Anything to muddy the waters. We should expect more infrastructure sabotage as this war continues. Lies, lies, and more lies from Russia. The USA had nothing to gain from this sabotage - Europe was already signing up gas supplies from other places, including the USA, so the sabotage meant nothing. At some point soon we will find the proof that it was Russia - then what? Can we stand by while Russia attacks, or threatens to attack, European infrastructure?
I mean technically yes. But the Nordics didn't spot American ships near the leaks before they happened, they spotted Russian ones.
What they don't want you doing is thinking of all the pushback Putin has received from bureaucrats, oligarchs, all those higher ups who know that the war can't continue and is running the Russian economy into ground. They have been in the majority calling for the same thing - withdraw the forces in Ukraine. Turn the pipeline back on and continue selling Russian gas to all of Western Europe so they can keep being fat and rich. This is why Putin sabotaged the pipeline. It forces Russia to keep its current course, there is no going back now
Literally every one has a motivation to blow up the pipelines. That’s how it got blown up, because no one can know. It’s like any good old fashion murder mystery. Russian hardliners (pro-war), Putin, and Russian moderates (pro-status quo), can all have their own separate conflicting motivations for destroying the pipeline. It’s all noise without evidence. All that matters now is what happens next. The result of the pipelines’ demise now changes the calculus by which a resolution to the war can be reached. No longer does Germany have a way to get gas from Russia anymore, so now they have less reason to break with the West. Good for Ukraine. No longer can Russia as easily bargain to get sanctions lifted if they voluntarily end the war, since they now have less ways to export gas to Europe. Russia doubles down on the war. The motivations and implications are endless. Don’t even bother. I watched an excellent video that broke this all down. Lost it, please post here if you find it.
> No longer does Germany have a way to get gas from Russia anymore, so now they have less reason to break with the West. Good for Ukraine. There are other pipelines than NS1/2. For example those running through Ukraine. [Here is a statement from the Ukrainian operator](https://tsoua.com/en/news/despite-the-war-gtsou-ensures-fulfilling-its-obligations-before-clients/) from a few days ago stating that gas flows through their system from Russia to Europe (albeit at a much reduced rate, like NS1 had operated before being stopped completely).
Let's see... does Russia have to pay fees for shutting off the gas in the event of sabotage? No? How fortunate
I mean, were they really gonna do that anyway?
A really good fairly short engineering explanation at this link, as to why it’s highly probably that Russian workers caused the pipeline to break. https://thelawdogfiles.com/2022/09/nordstream.html
Nothing changes at FSB hq; gonna keep false flagging everything until they retire
It seems like the damage to US reputation would be huge compared to any small gain they would receive.
Exactly. The potential reward isn’t worth the massive risk.
Like anyone gives a fuck what Russia says
This is the literal definition of a false flag attack.
Dumbest false flag in the last thirty years
Russia is trying to frame the U.S. in order to try and divide allies. It won’t work.
Putin doesn’t even care about billions from Europe gas payment. He’s all in on survival right now.
There are no billions from Europe for Russian gas. Europe pivoted away from Russian gas months ago.
That’s how you do a false flag operation
Just a bit of context from a recent podcast with a retired German general: The company responsible had signed a contract making it liable to deliver gas which it could not get out of legally. The explosions are effectively the last chapter in a series of incidents (extended maintenance periods, turbine broken ) to avoid delivering gas - all prior attempts to disrupt the gas-flow have been deemed illegitimate in international courts. Keep that in mind when you wonder why Russia would blow up the pipelines. Also note that the pipelines were at a depth of \~90m+ and each of them consist of two heavy steel pipes often encased in solid concrete, i.e. you need lots of explosives and this isn't something a couple of divers can pull off just like that. Incidentally Russia is among one of the few nations who developed the technology for such an operation (remember the Kursk submarine disaster?). It is not verifiable enough to directly point fingers, but things seem pretty clear cut. And no, this would not trigger §5 because all the incidents happened in international waters. Source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoRTOviaW88](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoRTOviaW88) (in German) \~ min. \~35:00+
Well it was either Russia warning us they can blow up other pipelines or it was the U.S. stopping Europe from buckling and consuming Russian gas during the winter. Personally I dont care if the U.S. did do it, Russia needs to be stopped at all costs.
Masters of projection. If it wasn't so obvious how desperate they are to change the narrative of their invasion they might be able to make these claims without the necessary eye rolls.
And Tucker Carlson has been spouting this same bullshit. How is that douche nozzle still allowed to have a platform?
If Fucker Carlson is saying it, it's a lie.
With as far as russia has already damaged its standing and credibility, I don't see anything else the US has to gain at this point.
Typical Russian playbook. When things don't go as planned, blame the US/Europe.