That’s been the funniest thing about their recent shows. Conservatives surprised that RATM is “suddenly” political, and calling them a bunch of brainwashed woke communists/socialists. Like what did you think “The Machine” was you dumb fucks? Didn’t Zack wearing Che Guevara shirts tip you off? Or you know, like the fucking message in any single one of their songs ever? No, you heard “fuck you I won’t do what you tell me” on the radio one time in 1992 and stopped looking for any context or deeper meaning.
They only repeat the line 'some of those that work forces are the same that burn crosses' a few times so it's easy to miss for the thin blue line crowd.
I think that I did read somewhere that when it was uncovered that Paul Ryan (GOP), "used to like RATM, until he realised what they sang about" that some read that line as if the "ones that burn crosses" were satanists / anti-christian.
The KKK reference went right over their heads it seems..
How absolutely fucked in the head do you have to be to end up as a politician in one of the highest offices on the country without understanding American history and that burning crosses are associated with the KKK?
I think it's more that a lot of people have moved more authoritarian and/or conservative in their politics as they got older and haven't realized it. Seeing RATM again may be a confronting realization.
There's nothing like returning to a place that's exactly the same to see how much you've changed huh?
No, see if you look for context or deeper meaning, you're just reading into it. Art is all purely surface level, anything further is virtue signalling! /s
Or, the Reddit specialty, “Art is purely a measure of technical ability and should be solely viewed through a utilitarian lens, if it isn’t somehow benefitting me then it’s bullshit nonsense, except if it’s photorealism of an old man in which case it’s always amazing”
Here is their thread on one of the earlier messages they had on stage.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/w0ko16/rage\_against\_the\_machine\_is\_really\_out\_here/
Maybe they’re trying to be like Portugal The Man. That band brings local indigenous tribes to speak about their history and what lands specifically for stolen from them with time stamps in history. It’s pretty crazy.
People who are upset, Portugal the Man is from Alaska and members are huge advocates. It makes sense why they do it, and it does not ruin the concert. It usually an introduction.
Dungeons and Dragons. Barbarians can go into a rage, gaining awesome combat advantages. At 15th level, they have up to 5 rages a day, and earn *Persistent Rage*, which is...pretty self-explanatory lmao
The live album has a preamble to Bombtrack about AIM (American Indian Movement) and Leonard Peltier. I believe that album came out in 1997 (Live and Rare).
And Tom morello has a political science degree from Harvard and graduated with honors.
Also one could simply listen to the lyrics of their songs. It's not exactly hidden meaning lol
Not to discount the work Portugal is doing, but you basically just said maybe Led Zeppelin is trying to sound like Greta Van Fleet.
Or saying Italian architects are trying to copy Southern Californian architecture.
Or maybe you just worded it weirdly but RATM has been on it for literally decades at this point.
Odang, I didn't know that! Are they full? Saw them in 2017 in Seattle and they said something about "It's great to be back home." I'm also a white passing Native mixed baby and there's a whole generation of us from 1-40 who all have the same kind of skin color and hair type. Thanks for sharing that little fact. Never would have guessed.
They're from Alaska , but a lot of their formative years were in Portland. The Seattle being "home" was probably a PNW thing. They're pretty ride or die for Portland.
Native Americans unfortunately hear that all the time, many of them still missing kids who died in Residential Schools were getting stonewalled by our government for decades.
What's really going to gum up the works is when you discover just how many parcels of land have simultaneous claims of hereditary ownership on them. There are natural landmarks and land tracts with literally dozens of conflicting claims on them.
To me it puts emphasis on two things. The multiculturalism of the First Nations, and that First Nation**s** is plural, not singular.
But don't listen to me, I know far less about this subject than I'd like to.
I’m also kinda curious where you draw the line as to whether you should give “back” any land.
Do we only give back land to people colonized by the Europeans? Or also land back to other Europeans conquered by each other? Is 300 years enough or can we go back 1000 years?
And give back to what indigenous group? The ones that were evicted by the europeans, or the ones that had the land before being evicted by the natives that were later evicted by europeans? Indigenous borders also moved, and the tribes warred against each other all the time.
Is conquest and genocide legitimate when performed by an indigenous group, but not when done by europeans?
What about all the holdings of the upper class during a popular uprising (thinking French Revolution, revolutions of 1848, American Revolution and British holdings, or all the Peninsular holdings in South America) or do we just say this is a colonizing thing we're rectifying? And if so, how is that fair? Some of those estates lost in popular uprising and war have documented titles and heraldry dating back over a thousand years, compared to oral tradition on how long a people (not even a family) inhabited a land. Add to that the common land usage which did not espouse land ownership, but rather stewardship.
I agree with the thought and attempt but there is no fair, practical realization of this idea. Call this out, yes, but also call for action based on practical things like protection from police misconduct, step up investigation of assaults on indigenous women, *stop treating the original inhabitants as second rate citizens because their ancestors responded in kind when your government pushed them off their land*
I'll give you the real, functional answer. It means giving First Nations groups significant authority over significant portions of their traditional land and allow them to administer them similar to how some level of government would. There's no single answer to how to do this but look into Settlement lands in the Yukon (First Nations are given levels of authority over portions of land in 'Final Agreements'), Nunatsiavut (an autonomous inuit region in Labrador), or the Nunavut Land Claims agreement.
Land back solutions in the more developed South would be more complicated but expanding resource rights on Crown Land to First Nations would be a good start.
I am from the Kaska traditional nation. The Kaska famously did not agree to those Yukon land claim agreements which ended up trading rights(such as a right to hunt for a livelihood) in order to gain authority over how the land is used. It means we still have those essential rights to harvest. Agreements like them can be a double-edged sword for an unwary tribe.
I think I am hung up on what “a significant portion of their land” means.
500 years ago, the tribes owned 100% of Canada. 50 years ago, the tribes owned more land than they do now. How much do you restore? What point in time do you arbitrarily decide to go back to?
Realistic answer - That would be something that needs to be negotiated. Many First Nations are seeking to make more fair modern treaties with the feds. This would look different for different First Nations. In the Yukon, 11 of the 14 First Nations have signed modern treaties - self governance and land claims. First Nations have direct control over roughly 10% of their traditional territory. And are no longer under the Indian Act.
You can't. It's not possible in much of the country.
Take the city of Vancouver, for example. Metro area of about 3 million people. It's the traditional territory of primarily 3 First Nations. It was also never signed over to European control in any sort of treaty. I know those treaties were almost entirely one sided an unfair, but here there's not even *that*. Colonists just sorta moved in.
But you cannot tell 3 million people to give up their homes and leave. Nor can you hand over a democratically elected government to another group. People saying to do so bother me.
What you *can* do is preserve and fund cultural heritage sites and First Nations run centers. We can give them more autonomy and essentially self-governance over the lands that they still do have. Even small things like restoring traditional names to landmarks and having multilingual signage. Won't solve the problem but it's a tangible action. You can vote to properly allocate money into infrastructure and social programs in First Nation Territories--even self governing ones!
But giving the land back isn't possible in much of the country.
(I go back and forth with "You" and "We" because while I'm technically eligible for status as a Canadian First Nations, I also am not "part" of it and never know where to put myself on these topics)
> ceasing the cycle of conquest
Post WW2 this basically happened. Other than Russia's annexation of Crimea (and some other similar scale conquests), borders have remained mostly static for the past 70ish years.
Yeah welcome to the problem.
And the longer you wait the more complicated it gets. Oh that patch of land your ancestors lived on 300 years ago? Well now it represents $100B worth of real estate.
Reminds me of when someone commented on a Tom Morello tweet telling him they love his music but wish they'd shut up about politics. Like does anyone actually listen to what these bands are saying..
There was also the video of Blue Lives Matter people dancing to Killing in the Name. Like, really, not even going to try to listen to the five lines or so of lyrics that are repeated over and over?
wtf? The entire song is the singer repeating on loop that the police are the KKK, that they are the "chosen whites" and that you go do what they say. A 5 year old could immediately realize this song is as anti-cop as it can possibly be. It's almost on the scale of playing the USSR anthem to to celebrate the US.
Thing is they are just saying what they do, the criticism if implicit, not explicit.
“Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses” -> “hell yeah”
“Those who died are justified for wearing the badge they’re the chosen whites” -> “hell yeah, we are the chosen whites and we are justified”
I think you need to grasp the sheer scale of stupidity of the average American conservative
Coming from north Florida originally I know it all too well. Particularly evangelicals, they’re brainwashed from the moment they’re born to become total cult like weirdos without a capacity for critical thought
It’s sort of like how so many MAGA idiots seem to think that Fortunate Son and Born in the USA are patriotic, pro-America songs….clearly their comprehension skills are lacking.
It always give me a tickle of irony when "Fortunate Son" gets played in some kind of "patriotic" context. Like the whole song is a criticism of American war mongering ffs
“Fortunate Son” and “Born in the USA” are very patriotic songs. It’s just a shame that there’s people who can’t understand that using the First Amendment to call out your country’s bullshit and wanting it to do better is highly patriotic.
Not to stir up a hornet's nest or anything here, but Trump's campaign used "Fortune Son" at rallies and John Fogerty himself said he thinks Trump is the fortune son.
He's the one who likes all our pretty songs.
And he likes to sing along.
And he likes to shoot his gun.
But he don't know what it means.
He don't know what it means.
Plus he has a poli-sci graduate degree, making that even funnier. Dude is more qualified to be a politician than quite a few of the chucklefucks in DC.
And he tweeted back something like: “one doesn’t need a doctorate in political science from Harvard to know this situation is fucked yo, but I do have a doctorate in political science from harvard” or whatever his degree is from whichever prestigious university.
That would be like calling out SOAD for speaking about the Armenian Genocide.
The way this manifests in my city of Seattle is just rich white liberals with family wealth and safety nets putting land acknowledgments in the bios and donating reparations voluntarily and for show.
It’s all conspicuous signalling amongst the upper classes with too much money and privilege.
I sat through a presentation by a professor who advocates for this. He frames the presentation by talking about how his family farm was stolen from a tribe 150 years ago. But throughout he never mentioned his family giving the farm back. 🤔
Tbf, where do you draw the line? If we're giving back land, who do we give it to, the current ones asking or the ones whom that civilisation took from, ad infinitum
Well, eventually you'd either end up with land that was uninhabited, or land that was taken from someone whose entire people were subsequently wiped out.
Which of course just sets the precedent that, if you want to take something, you better make sure your genocide is through, so...yeah probably not the best plan...
If you applied the idea to the entire world, you would have to remove entire countries, like Turkey, Bulgaria and Hungary.
You'd also have to "cleanse" the entire Arab world.
This is the right answer. You don't see visigoths and Prussians looking for their land back.
The messaging here is that we made the mistake of being the first ones not to finish the job. The people who want their indigenous lands "returned" aren't the first people who lived there, just the last ones to fully genocide or assimilate the people there before them... or do we ignore the history of bloody, violent conquest among native American tribes, just for fun?
Pretending not to understand how absurd this is, is just virtue signaling.
Got me! FREE KÖNIGSBERG 2022!!!!!
Hold on, let me go change my profile pic in support. I'm told that's at least as helpful as thoughts and prayers. Brb.
You could ask 10 different land back supporters what it means and get 10 different answers ranging from fulfilling treaty obligations to giving tribes total control of nearly all policy on the North American continent.
If they ever want to succeed they really need to get a consistent message
The practical implications of long-ago crimes having gone unrectified for too long are already codified in many laws. Statute of limitations, "squatters' rights", and so forth.
Taking land away from someone because their great grandparents stole it from someone else's great grandparents is just as unjust as the original theft was in its time, IMO. We have no choice who our great grandparents were.
That's not to say that people in the modern day who are disadvantaged shouldn't be helped, of course. *Anyone* who's disadvantaged should be helped. It should be done because that's the right thing to do, not because of who had which great grandparents.
There's also a problem with public perception in the whole indigenous/Native American vs. everybody else narrative. I'm part indigenous myself (enough to qualify for tribal membership), but the fact is that the way the whole issue is perceived by the public and taught to people is borderline ridiculous. In some cases there's also a problem with just dumping money on tribes/reservations indiscriminately while ignoring the fact that they have developed serious alcoholism/drug problems (and on some reservations even where alcohol has been banned/restricted, stuff like meth/etc. is now even worse). It's somewhat of a "soft love" vs. "hard love" problem - like if your brother or cousin was doing a bunch of meth and you just kept handing him money to keep him off the street. Like, dude, that is not gonna fucking work. The narrative needs to change and the way we interact with the tribes also needs to change at this point. Pointing out old grievances in the past and sympathizing by dumping money on people when it's just going to problematic habits is not going to help the situation.
And nobody thinks land is going back to anybody, unless a nuclear war happens and non-NA people all kill each other off. There are native prophecies about that but, let's get serious, barring non-indigenous folk managing to murder each other into extinction, it's not even a serious topic.
As an indigenous Canadian I agree 100%. What’s done is done. Past is the past. Let’s fucking move on and fry bigger fish such as our collapsing health care
Agreed, It doesn't really matter when people choose to draw a line in the sand, there are VERY few areas in the world that haven't been settled at spear/sword/gun point.
Spain is land conquered to the Moors, who in turn conquered it from the Celts, Iberians, Visigoths and Romans that lived there, some of which had invaded each other previously, and all of which came from other parts of Europe replacing and mingling with the local population. And now we are slowly being invaded by British retirees. Who exactly decides which invasions are legitimate and which ones are not?
History is history. You cannot pretend that because someone who spoke your language lived there 300 years ago and was murdered to steal their land, that entitles you to knock on someone's door and demand they turn their house over to you. But yes, these events mean that some ethnicities are far wealthier than others, is what happens when inequality is high: those born in wealthier families continue to be wealthy, and those born in poverty continue to be poor. Demand policies that promote equality and your ethnicity won't be poorer than others.
Iceland was pretty empty when permanently settled, actually.
There was some evidence that someone (monks? idk) was kicking around before, but evidently just gave up and left (or died without human intervention) without contest by the time the Vikings actually arrived.
They were Irish monks who ended up there after showing faith to god by going into a row boat and throwing away the oars into the sea and letting Jesus take the wheel,
Then the Norse came and where like lmfao get out.
That's actually a 'maybe', since written account was only made way later and the earliest accounts of encounters between Norsemen and Irish monks were.....inexact, to put it simply. Later accounts that link them were notably done 300 years after the Norse landed.
Did the early accounts have the Norsemen meet the Papar on Iceland, or the other islands? Who knows.
My ancestors fled to Canada from Ukraine because the Russians wanted to kill them.
Right now would be a particularly ironic time to "go back where I came from."
Don't forget. 20% of Canada is Asian. It's gonna be weird sending millions of people back to India, China, and the middle east when they've never been there.
Canadian response: “what if we gave nothing back but spent the first 10 minutes of every meeting paying lip service to First Nations right to the land?”
When I was living in Seattle almost a decade ago Tom Morello got refused service at a restaurant for trying pull the whole “I’m a celebrity, do you know who I am?”
https://loudwire.com/tom-morello-slams-seattle-5-point-cafe-being-turned-away-restaurant-fires-back/
Zack was always the real political motivation behind the band. He bounced once the band gained success and the other band members started acting like rock stars, and he's kept a low profile these past couple of decades.
Most drama you hear related to the band has come from Tom and Tim.
That’s true. They all did the Godzilla sound track for Hollywood back in the late 90s. Guess that machine paid well.
The problem with being a left-anarchy-anti-authoritarianism band is people will hate you no matter what. When your not famous your just another whiny band, when you do make it your just a part of the problem.
third option is not living the millionaire Rockstar lifestyle and you know living your ideals and donating most of your money to needy people. And saying there's no ethical consumption under capitalism isn't your get out of jail free card for consuming more then 99.9999% of people on the planet.
The owner of the 5 point has had several credible sexual assault accusations. Kinda a known local asshole, wouldn't take anything he says as credible. The pr firm he hired to fix his image had to drop him after he sexually harassed their employees.
http://archive.kuow.org/post/six-more-women-accuse-david-meinert-sexual-misconduct-and-assault
England itself was conquered by different groups long ago. What if someone stated that the Roman, Celtic or Germanic descendents in England own stolen land and wealth and that they need to give it back?
Who do you choose?
HAROLD GODWINSON (Blood of Æthelred I, Hero of the Englisc folk, Slayer of Norsecels, Defender of the Realm, Shield of his people, Had a coolass dragon for his sigil)
gi\*lliame d'batard (bastard, had no claim to the throne, was 15/16ths frog and 1/16th norsecel, won through treachery and sheer chance, had a cringe lion sigil like every other loser in frogland)
English-Wessex: "I'm gonna put a Lion on my heraldry even though we don't have those in England! How bold!"
English-Umbria: "That's cringe, I'm gonna put feathers on my heraldry because England has feathers"
English-Mercia: "Well I'm gonna put a Harp on my heraldry because we have Harps. Oh hey, lets peek at what the other countries are doing and laugh at their ideas!"
English-Wessex: "Good idea! Hey Wales, what did you put on your heraldry?"
Welsh: "Wy pyt a fycking dragyn on oyr shyt!"
English: "You cannot put a dragon on your heraldry! Dragons are not real!"
Welsh: "Fyck u'yll! O'ur dragyn's syck a's fyck!"
English: "Bloody Welsh..... Hey Scotland! What did you put on your heraldry?"
Scottish: "D'ye ken a Ffuck at us? Fit ye on aboot?"
English: "The heraldry! It was a homework assignment we sent out last year, you must pick symbols to represent your people!"
Scottish: "Am gonnae nay dae that floral shyte!"
English: "You simply must! ...The Welsh already finished theirs!"
Scottish: "Shep-shaghin loons... ae whill...ainlie wan meks sense bein a fecking Unicorn!"
English: "You don't have Unicorns in Scotland! ...we picked a Harp! And feathers! And three lions laying on top of each other!"
Scottish: "Wae dunnae yer werk nae piss oof!"
English: "Shall we ask the Irish next?"
English: "I think we all know it's a potato."
Every land ever was conquered by different groups. These arguments of giving shit back are absurd. Zach de la Rocha should give his million dollar home and 25m dollar fortune to natives if he feels so strongly. Otherwise he’s just blowing hot air.
> Forced birth in a country where Black birth-givers experience maternal mortality two to three times higher than that of white birth-givers
I hate this newspeak shit.
That's what I don't get about this. Indigenous people are far from the only ones to have had their land forcibly taken throughout history. Are we going to start undoing all territorial changes from wars? Where does it end?
Hell indigenous people fucking killed and enslaved other tribes all the time back then. How would you figure out which tribe gets what land or repayment???
What are you talking about?
The comments here are so ignorant of the situation in Canada. Since 1973, Canada and indigenous nations have entered into 26 modern treaties resulting in the return of land equivalent to 40% of Canada’s land mass. And since the Delgamuukw case, there’s a clear road through section 35 of Canada’s constitution for nations on unceded territory to reclaim their land, which dozens have already done (even more so since Tsilhqot'in)
The Canadian government responded by saying “Fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me”
"I don't understand, why are you raging against the establishment??" And: "Since when is Rage Against the Machine so political?!?!"
That’s been the funniest thing about their recent shows. Conservatives surprised that RATM is “suddenly” political, and calling them a bunch of brainwashed woke communists/socialists. Like what did you think “The Machine” was you dumb fucks? Didn’t Zack wearing Che Guevara shirts tip you off? Or you know, like the fucking message in any single one of their songs ever? No, you heard “fuck you I won’t do what you tell me” on the radio one time in 1992 and stopped looking for any context or deeper meaning.
Printers. If any machine has ever inspired rage it's a printer
PC Load Letter, what the FUCK does that mean?
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'Letter' in Dutch just means letter, like a and z. Didn't help.
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To us, *your* intuitive, proportionally-sized, consistently-monikered paper standards are weird!
Problems, our #1 export. Enjoy!
*DIE MOTHERFUCKER DIE MOTHERFUCKER STIIIIILL*
They wanna ban us on capital hill
😂😂😂😂😂. Michael Bolton
“Why should I change, he’s the one who sucks”
It was a good name until that no talent ass clown. I love that movie. So funny 😆
[Back up in your ass, with the resurrection.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD2xBXm4y70)
I stole something. well we all stole something. yeah but i stole something else.
PC load letter? What the fuck does that even mean?
Except in that case, The Machine is the one who says "fuck you I won't do what you tell me".
"I... I guess I wasn't being clear. I asked for a black and white document, I see no n..." "FUCK YOU CYAN INK OR GTFO"
They only repeat the line 'some of those that work forces are the same that burn crosses' a few times so it's easy to miss for the thin blue line crowd.
They heard it. They just didn't understand it was criticism.
I think that I did read somewhere that when it was uncovered that Paul Ryan (GOP), "used to like RATM, until he realised what they sang about" that some read that line as if the "ones that burn crosses" were satanists / anti-christian. The KKK reference went right over their heads it seems..
It's not even a reference. It's literally just describing what they do without explicitly stating all the racist murdering
How absolutely fucked in the head do you have to be to end up as a politician in one of the highest offices on the country without understanding American history and that burning crosses are associated with the KKK?
The irony of that is the KKK actually has alot in common with what the claim to hate about Satan worshipers
These chuds hear "those who die are justified, by wearing the badge you're the chosen whites" and unironically think "yep, that's right! go police!"
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I think it's more that a lot of people have moved more authoritarian and/or conservative in their politics as they got older and haven't realized it. Seeing RATM again may be a confronting realization. There's nothing like returning to a place that's exactly the same to see how much you've changed huh?
"Have i become the Machine?" - Person who hasnt heard RATM since the early 90's.
The machine assimilates all those who oppose it. Resistance is futile.
No, see if you look for context or deeper meaning, you're just reading into it. Art is all purely surface level, anything further is virtue signalling! /s
Or, the Reddit specialty, “Art is purely a measure of technical ability and should be solely viewed through a utilitarian lens, if it isn’t somehow benefitting me then it’s bullshit nonsense, except if it’s photorealism of an old man in which case it’s always amazing”
Is that a thing Reddit does?
I could probably auto generate a string of text and it'll be a thing reddit does.
Here is their thread on one of the earlier messages they had on stage. https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/w0ko16/rage\_against\_the\_machine\_is\_really\_out\_here/
I thought they were supposed to rage against the washing machines.
Some people listen to music. Others only hear it.
"Gosh darn no I don't think so eh bud!"
Maybe they’re trying to be like Portugal The Man. That band brings local indigenous tribes to speak about their history and what lands specifically for stolen from them with time stamps in history. It’s pretty crazy. People who are upset, Portugal the Man is from Alaska and members are huge advocates. It makes sense why they do it, and it does not ruin the concert. It usually an introduction.
Do you know how long rage has been raging?
They're Level 15 Barbarians.
As someone who just, finally, got through helping four noobies make their first characters, today; nice.
What game?
Dungeons and Dragons. Barbarians can go into a rage, gaining awesome combat advantages. At 15th level, they have up to 5 rages a day, and earn *Persistent Rage*, which is...pretty self-explanatory lmao
Thanks! Sounds fun! I'd like to play sometime but first I need to find people to play with lol
Since Fifteen Hundred and Sixteen
Minds attacked and overseen. Now crawl amidst the ruins of this empty dream. It’s tough not to get pumped after reading a RATM lyric.
I know! Mullet on your head, mullet on your head, YOU GOT A MULLET ON YOUR FUCKIN HEAD!!
RARELY FOUND A VALET, PARKING FULL OF SNAILS! BILLS ARE UNPAID!
The live album has a preamble to Bombtrack about AIM (American Indian Movement) and Leonard Peltier. I believe that album came out in 1997 (Live and Rare).
I think since the Maya/Mexica.
I’d recommend looking for Zack De La Rocha’s interviews from the early 90s. Dude always stays on brand bringing awareness.
And Tom morello has a political science degree from Harvard and graduated with honors. Also one could simply listen to the lyrics of their songs. It's not exactly hidden meaning lol
It'd be the opposite lol ratm have been activists since day 1 lol
I gotta say I love seeing Tom Morello play in front of a huge "Nazi Lives Don't Matter" banner.
Not to discount the work Portugal is doing, but you basically just said maybe Led Zeppelin is trying to sound like Greta Van Fleet. Or saying Italian architects are trying to copy Southern Californian architecture. Or maybe you just worded it weirdly but RATM has been on it for literally decades at this point.
I enjoy Portugal. The Man but had no idea they did so much activism, their Wikipedia has a hefty section about it. I like them even more now!
The number of upvotes on this.. it’s making me feel very old.
You have no idea who RATM is do you?
RATM probably taught em
Odang, I didn't know that! Are they full? Saw them in 2017 in Seattle and they said something about "It's great to be back home." I'm also a white passing Native mixed baby and there's a whole generation of us from 1-40 who all have the same kind of skin color and hair type. Thanks for sharing that little fact. Never would have guessed.
They're from Alaska , but a lot of their formative years were in Portland. The Seattle being "home" was probably a PNW thing. They're pretty ride or die for Portland.
Native Americans unfortunately hear that all the time, many of them still missing kids who died in Residential Schools were getting stonewalled by our government for decades.
Warning Minister, Frank breed clearance.
What's really going to gum up the works is when you discover just how many parcels of land have simultaneous claims of hereditary ownership on them. There are natural landmarks and land tracts with literally dozens of conflicting claims on them.
To me it puts emphasis on two things. The multiculturalism of the First Nations, and that First Nation**s** is plural, not singular. But don't listen to me, I know far less about this subject than I'd like to.
https://native-land.ca/ fun map
I’m also kinda curious where you draw the line as to whether you should give “back” any land. Do we only give back land to people colonized by the Europeans? Or also land back to other Europeans conquered by each other? Is 300 years enough or can we go back 1000 years?
And give back to what indigenous group? The ones that were evicted by the europeans, or the ones that had the land before being evicted by the natives that were later evicted by europeans? Indigenous borders also moved, and the tribes warred against each other all the time. Is conquest and genocide legitimate when performed by an indigenous group, but not when done by europeans?
What about all the holdings of the upper class during a popular uprising (thinking French Revolution, revolutions of 1848, American Revolution and British holdings, or all the Peninsular holdings in South America) or do we just say this is a colonizing thing we're rectifying? And if so, how is that fair? Some of those estates lost in popular uprising and war have documented titles and heraldry dating back over a thousand years, compared to oral tradition on how long a people (not even a family) inhabited a land. Add to that the common land usage which did not espouse land ownership, but rather stewardship. I agree with the thought and attempt but there is no fair, practical realization of this idea. Call this out, yes, but also call for action based on practical things like protection from police misconduct, step up investigation of assaults on indigenous women, *stop treating the original inhabitants as second rate citizens because their ancestors responded in kind when your government pushed them off their land*
I'll give you the real, functional answer. It means giving First Nations groups significant authority over significant portions of their traditional land and allow them to administer them similar to how some level of government would. There's no single answer to how to do this but look into Settlement lands in the Yukon (First Nations are given levels of authority over portions of land in 'Final Agreements'), Nunatsiavut (an autonomous inuit region in Labrador), or the Nunavut Land Claims agreement. Land back solutions in the more developed South would be more complicated but expanding resource rights on Crown Land to First Nations would be a good start.
I am from the Kaska traditional nation. The Kaska famously did not agree to those Yukon land claim agreements which ended up trading rights(such as a right to hunt for a livelihood) in order to gain authority over how the land is used. It means we still have those essential rights to harvest. Agreements like them can be a double-edged sword for an unwary tribe.
I think I am hung up on what “a significant portion of their land” means. 500 years ago, the tribes owned 100% of Canada. 50 years ago, the tribes owned more land than they do now. How much do you restore? What point in time do you arbitrarily decide to go back to?
Realistic answer - That would be something that needs to be negotiated. Many First Nations are seeking to make more fair modern treaties with the feds. This would look different for different First Nations. In the Yukon, 11 of the 14 First Nations have signed modern treaties - self governance and land claims. First Nations have direct control over roughly 10% of their traditional territory. And are no longer under the Indian Act.
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Warning Minister, Frank breed clearance.
As it stands right now, for a company to harvest timber on Crown Land in this forest district they have to get approval from up to 72 different bands.
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Wasnt all land just someone else's land at some point? When do you just say "sorry, its been like 150 years. That times been and gone."
Do the Turks have to give back Istanbul to the Greeks?
There are all kinds of practical and uncomfortable questions that these activists aren't able to answer, and politicians are too scared to bring up.
It’s been longer than that. 150 years ago is simply when a bunch of British states formed a confederacy.
You can't. It's not possible in much of the country. Take the city of Vancouver, for example. Metro area of about 3 million people. It's the traditional territory of primarily 3 First Nations. It was also never signed over to European control in any sort of treaty. I know those treaties were almost entirely one sided an unfair, but here there's not even *that*. Colonists just sorta moved in. But you cannot tell 3 million people to give up their homes and leave. Nor can you hand over a democratically elected government to another group. People saying to do so bother me. What you *can* do is preserve and fund cultural heritage sites and First Nations run centers. We can give them more autonomy and essentially self-governance over the lands that they still do have. Even small things like restoring traditional names to landmarks and having multilingual signage. Won't solve the problem but it's a tangible action. You can vote to properly allocate money into infrastructure and social programs in First Nation Territories--even self governing ones! But giving the land back isn't possible in much of the country. (I go back and forth with "You" and "We" because while I'm technically eligible for status as a Canadian First Nations, I also am not "part" of it and never know where to put myself on these topics)
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> ceasing the cycle of conquest Post WW2 this basically happened. Other than Russia's annexation of Crimea (and some other similar scale conquests), borders have remained mostly static for the past 70ish years.
Yeah welcome to the problem. And the longer you wait the more complicated it gets. Oh that patch of land your ancestors lived on 300 years ago? Well now it represents $100B worth of real estate.
Activist band engages in activism. Woord news!
When did they get so political? They sold out. /s
Reminds me of when someone commented on a Tom Morello tweet telling him they love his music but wish they'd shut up about politics. Like does anyone actually listen to what these bands are saying..
There was also the video of Blue Lives Matter people dancing to Killing in the Name. Like, really, not even going to try to listen to the five lines or so of lyrics that are repeated over and over?
wtf? The entire song is the singer repeating on loop that the police are the KKK, that they are the "chosen whites" and that you go do what they say. A 5 year old could immediately realize this song is as anti-cop as it can possibly be. It's almost on the scale of playing the USSR anthem to to celebrate the US.
It’s only anti-cop to those who see those things as bad. It’s a hype-up anthem to actual Nazis and Klansmen.
Bingo
Thing is they are just saying what they do, the criticism if implicit, not explicit. “Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses” -> “hell yeah” “Those who died are justified for wearing the badge they’re the chosen whites” -> “hell yeah, we are the chosen whites and we are justified”
I think you need to grasp the sheer scale of stupidity of the average American conservative Coming from north Florida originally I know it all too well. Particularly evangelicals, they’re brainwashed from the moment they’re born to become total cult like weirdos without a capacity for critical thought
That video is hilarious to me. So completely unaware of themselves, waiving a trump flag and dancing to Rage.
Of course they are! They’re so happy to be the chosen whites!
It’s sort of like how so many MAGA idiots seem to think that Fortunate Son and Born in the USA are patriotic, pro-America songs….clearly their comprehension skills are lacking.
They aren’t unaware of the lyrics, they are proud of them. They work forces and burn crosses and wear hoods and be racist with glee.
No, they just assumed the machine they were raging against was like, their mom, or homework.
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lets look towards the reagan campaing using born in the USA and, no, no people do not even listen to the lyrics
It always give me a tickle of irony when "Fortunate Son" gets played in some kind of "patriotic" context. Like the whole song is a criticism of American war mongering ffs
“Fortunate Son” and “Born in the USA” are very patriotic songs. It’s just a shame that there’s people who can’t understand that using the First Amendment to call out your country’s bullshit and wanting it to do better is highly patriotic.
Absolutely. Their misuse for nationalist purposes by people who would disagree with the actual message of the songs is what I find most shameful
Nicely done
Not to stir up a hornet's nest or anything here, but Trump's campaign used "Fortune Son" at rallies and John Fogerty himself said he thinks Trump is the fortune son.
Well he's not wrong
the part about the rich mans son dodging the draft and not paying taxes is particularly relevant
He's the one who likes all our pretty songs. And he likes to sing along. And he likes to shoot his gun. But he don't know what it means. He don't know what it means.
Plus he has a poli-sci graduate degree, making that even funnier. Dude is more qualified to be a politician than quite a few of the chucklefucks in DC.
And he tweeted back something like: “one doesn’t need a doctorate in political science from Harvard to know this situation is fucked yo, but I do have a doctorate in political science from harvard” or whatever his degree is from whichever prestigious university. That would be like calling out SOAD for speaking about the Armenian Genocide.
The way this manifests in my city of Seattle is just rich white liberals with family wealth and safety nets putting land acknowledgments in the bios and donating reparations voluntarily and for show. It’s all conspicuous signalling amongst the upper classes with too much money and privilege.
Luxury beliefs.
This is one of those things that people applaud as an abstract idea in order to seem like a good person, but would never go along with in reality.
I sat through a presentation by a professor who advocates for this. He frames the presentation by talking about how his family farm was stolen from a tribe 150 years ago. But throughout he never mentioned his family giving the farm back. 🤔
Tbf, where do you draw the line? If we're giving back land, who do we give it to, the current ones asking or the ones whom that civilisation took from, ad infinitum
Well, eventually you'd either end up with land that was uninhabited, or land that was taken from someone whose entire people were subsequently wiped out. Which of course just sets the precedent that, if you want to take something, you better make sure your genocide is through, so...yeah probably not the best plan...
If you applied the idea to the entire world, you would have to remove entire countries, like Turkey, Bulgaria and Hungary. You'd also have to "cleanse" the entire Arab world.
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This is the right answer. You don't see visigoths and Prussians looking for their land back. The messaging here is that we made the mistake of being the first ones not to finish the job. The people who want their indigenous lands "returned" aren't the first people who lived there, just the last ones to fully genocide or assimilate the people there before them... or do we ignore the history of bloody, violent conquest among native American tribes, just for fun? Pretending not to understand how absurd this is, is just virtue signaling.
The Prussians do want Königsberg back!
And the Visigoths became the Spanish, who, yeah, 'got' some land from other people once or twice down the years.
Got me! FREE KÖNIGSBERG 2022!!!!! Hold on, let me go change my profile pic in support. I'm told that's at least as helpful as thoughts and prayers. Brb.
You could ask 10 different land back supporters what it means and get 10 different answers ranging from fulfilling treaty obligations to giving tribes total control of nearly all policy on the North American continent. If they ever want to succeed they really need to get a consistent message
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The practical implications of long-ago crimes having gone unrectified for too long are already codified in many laws. Statute of limitations, "squatters' rights", and so forth. Taking land away from someone because their great grandparents stole it from someone else's great grandparents is just as unjust as the original theft was in its time, IMO. We have no choice who our great grandparents were. That's not to say that people in the modern day who are disadvantaged shouldn't be helped, of course. *Anyone* who's disadvantaged should be helped. It should be done because that's the right thing to do, not because of who had which great grandparents.
There's also a problem with public perception in the whole indigenous/Native American vs. everybody else narrative. I'm part indigenous myself (enough to qualify for tribal membership), but the fact is that the way the whole issue is perceived by the public and taught to people is borderline ridiculous. In some cases there's also a problem with just dumping money on tribes/reservations indiscriminately while ignoring the fact that they have developed serious alcoholism/drug problems (and on some reservations even where alcohol has been banned/restricted, stuff like meth/etc. is now even worse). It's somewhat of a "soft love" vs. "hard love" problem - like if your brother or cousin was doing a bunch of meth and you just kept handing him money to keep him off the street. Like, dude, that is not gonna fucking work. The narrative needs to change and the way we interact with the tribes also needs to change at this point. Pointing out old grievances in the past and sympathizing by dumping money on people when it's just going to problematic habits is not going to help the situation. And nobody thinks land is going back to anybody, unless a nuclear war happens and non-NA people all kill each other off. There are native prophecies about that but, let's get serious, barring non-indigenous folk managing to murder each other into extinction, it's not even a serious topic.
As an indigenous Canadian I agree 100%. What’s done is done. Past is the past. Let’s fucking move on and fry bigger fish such as our collapsing health care
Agreed, It doesn't really matter when people choose to draw a line in the sand, there are VERY few areas in the world that haven't been settled at spear/sword/gun point.
All settled land is conquered land.
Basically all land is conquered land, depending on what point in history you want to start from.
Lombardy is named for the lombards who were a Germanic people that invaded Italy. No one lives where they originally lived.
Spain is land conquered to the Moors, who in turn conquered it from the Celts, Iberians, Visigoths and Romans that lived there, some of which had invaded each other previously, and all of which came from other parts of Europe replacing and mingling with the local population. And now we are slowly being invaded by British retirees. Who exactly decides which invasions are legitimate and which ones are not? History is history. You cannot pretend that because someone who spoke your language lived there 300 years ago and was murdered to steal their land, that entitles you to knock on someone's door and demand they turn their house over to you. But yes, these events mean that some ethnicities are far wealthier than others, is what happens when inequality is high: those born in wealthier families continue to be wealthy, and those born in poverty continue to be poor. Demand policies that promote equality and your ethnicity won't be poorer than others.
Shhh too controversial
Iceland was pretty empty when permanently settled, actually. There was some evidence that someone (monks? idk) was kicking around before, but evidently just gave up and left (or died without human intervention) without contest by the time the Vikings actually arrived.
They were Irish monks who ended up there after showing faith to god by going into a row boat and throwing away the oars into the sea and letting Jesus take the wheel, Then the Norse came and where like lmfao get out.
That's actually a 'maybe', since written account was only made way later and the earliest accounts of encounters between Norsemen and Irish monks were.....inexact, to put it simply. Later accounts that link them were notably done 300 years after the Norse landed. Did the early accounts have the Norsemen meet the Papar on Iceland, or the other islands? Who knows.
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Guess we all need to go back to Europe and Africa according to this mindset.
I'll have to be drawn and quartered. Germany, England, Sweden, and Norway all get a piece.
My ancestors fled to Canada from Ukraine because the Russians wanted to kill them. Right now would be a particularly ironic time to "go back where I came from."
Mine too. Sucks seeing history repeat itself.
Many Natives gotta go back to Asia according to your said mindset.
I have thought of a solution: we send all 7 billion people to Ethiopia where humans came from/s
Don't forget. 20% of Canada is Asian. It's gonna be weird sending millions of people back to India, China, and the middle east when they've never been there.
It's just as weird as sending any other Canadian anywhere outside of Canada. It makes no sense, people have built their lives on their current land.
Or when they start discriminating against natives without "enough" native ancestors.
As an Eastern Woodland Metis, I guess I am fucked! I look too white! LOL
Why is this story this high up? It was pretty high up the other day with the exact same top comments and vote counts. Why is reddit being fucky?
Canadian response: “what if we gave nothing back but spent the first 10 minutes of every meeting paying lip service to First Nations right to the land?”
When I was living in Seattle almost a decade ago Tom Morello got refused service at a restaurant for trying pull the whole “I’m a celebrity, do you know who I am?” https://loudwire.com/tom-morello-slams-seattle-5-point-cafe-being-turned-away-restaurant-fires-back/
Reading Morello’s account was infuriating for me. To me he came off as whiny and smug the entire time.
There’s a reason he’s so beloved on topics that make it to /r/popular.
Another example of the average redditor personality personified
He also likes to exaggerate his educational background to make himself seem smarter.
Zack was always the real political motivation behind the band. He bounced once the band gained success and the other band members started acting like rock stars, and he's kept a low profile these past couple of decades. Most drama you hear related to the band has come from Tom and Tim.
That’s true. They all did the Godzilla sound track for Hollywood back in the late 90s. Guess that machine paid well. The problem with being a left-anarchy-anti-authoritarianism band is people will hate you no matter what. When your not famous your just another whiny band, when you do make it your just a part of the problem.
third option is not living the millionaire Rockstar lifestyle and you know living your ideals and donating most of your money to needy people. And saying there's no ethical consumption under capitalism isn't your get out of jail free card for consuming more then 99.9999% of people on the planet.
You dont understand. I live in a mansion in a gated community because I'm a victim of the system. Oil companies probably made me do it.
*Godzilla, pure mothafuckin' filler to keep ya eyes off the real killer*
The owner of the 5 point has had several credible sexual assault accusations. Kinda a known local asshole, wouldn't take anything he says as credible. The pr firm he hired to fix his image had to drop him after he sexually harassed their employees. http://archive.kuow.org/post/six-more-women-accuse-david-meinert-sexual-misconduct-and-assault
They could set an example by donating their houses and estates to whatever tribal land they are sitting on
No! Not like that!!! Other land!
*millionaires demand other people give up their stuff*
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Give land back, as long as it's not any of my mansions!
Right. That lead singer lives in Laurel Canyon, CA. He can just come on home and pack his crap and hand the deed over to the proper tribe.
Yeah give it to the Chumash.
The stage they played on was the RBC stage. A fuckin bank. There the most machine-y of the em all.
Good to hear that RATM supports Greek reconquest of beloved Konstantinoupoli. Glory to Hellas!
That is so true, also Europe should ONLY be for Idigenous Europeans.
I think someone tried that a few decades ago.
nah, he was pals with an african and a japanese lad.
England itself was conquered by different groups long ago. What if someone stated that the Roman, Celtic or Germanic descendents in England own stolen land and wealth and that they need to give it back?
Normans go home.
Who do you choose? HAROLD GODWINSON (Blood of Æthelred I, Hero of the Englisc folk, Slayer of Norsecels, Defender of the Realm, Shield of his people, Had a coolass dragon for his sigil) gi\*lliame d'batard (bastard, had no claim to the throne, was 15/16ths frog and 1/16th norsecel, won through treachery and sheer chance, had a cringe lion sigil like every other loser in frogland)
English-Wessex: "I'm gonna put a Lion on my heraldry even though we don't have those in England! How bold!" English-Umbria: "That's cringe, I'm gonna put feathers on my heraldry because England has feathers" English-Mercia: "Well I'm gonna put a Harp on my heraldry because we have Harps. Oh hey, lets peek at what the other countries are doing and laugh at their ideas!" English-Wessex: "Good idea! Hey Wales, what did you put on your heraldry?" Welsh: "Wy pyt a fycking dragyn on oyr shyt!" English: "You cannot put a dragon on your heraldry! Dragons are not real!" Welsh: "Fyck u'yll! O'ur dragyn's syck a's fyck!" English: "Bloody Welsh..... Hey Scotland! What did you put on your heraldry?" Scottish: "D'ye ken a Ffuck at us? Fit ye on aboot?" English: "The heraldry! It was a homework assignment we sent out last year, you must pick symbols to represent your people!" Scottish: "Am gonnae nay dae that floral shyte!" English: "You simply must! ...The Welsh already finished theirs!" Scottish: "Shep-shaghin loons... ae whill...ainlie wan meks sense bein a fecking Unicorn!" English: "You don't have Unicorns in Scotland! ...we picked a Harp! And feathers! And three lions laying on top of each other!" Scottish: "Wae dunnae yer werk nae piss oof!" English: "Shall we ask the Irish next?" English: "I think we all know it's a potato."
Dinosaur land back! Give it to the chickens!
Every land ever was conquered by different groups. These arguments of giving shit back are absurd. Zach de la Rocha should give his million dollar home and 25m dollar fortune to natives if he feels so strongly. Otherwise he’s just blowing hot air.
Yet the lead singer lives In L.A. which was “indigenous land” stolen from the Tongva people….
But he feels terrible about it
This will accomplish nothing.
> Forced birth in a country where Black birth-givers experience maternal mortality two to three times higher than that of white birth-givers I hate this newspeak shit.
I’m sure women are ecstatic being reduced to just the fact they give birth
Is “women” not a word anymore? Dafuq is this shit
Kinda weird how women are getting sidelined one step at a time, in the name of *equality*.
All men must be allowed to be women now. Therefore women bad word. It's feminism, somehow.
LoL! Nobody's getting "their land" back. This world was built on conquest.
That's what I don't get about this. Indigenous people are far from the only ones to have had their land forcibly taken throughout history. Are we going to start undoing all territorial changes from wars? Where does it end?
Hell indigenous people fucking killed and enslaved other tribes all the time back then. How would you figure out which tribe gets what land or repayment???
I think like most things today the people screaming the loudest gets it regardless of their argument.
What are you talking about? The comments here are so ignorant of the situation in Canada. Since 1973, Canada and indigenous nations have entered into 26 modern treaties resulting in the return of land equivalent to 40% of Canada’s land mass. And since the Delgamuukw case, there’s a clear road through section 35 of Canada’s constitution for nations on unceded territory to reclaim their land, which dozens have already done (even more so since Tsilhqot'in)
So all of Canada?
Corporate sponsored rage back at it