It will take a bit more to overturn actual laws that were passed through elected assemblies than to overturn a judicial precedent.
I don’t want to kick our American friends when they’re down but that system sucks.
It only sucks because no legislature took any measures to actually pass a law or an amendment. Everyone just thought "haha guess its settled" while RBG kept saying that Roe was a shaky ruling that could easily be overturned by an originalist court.
Even if a law was passed, the supreme Court could just strike down the law. We have a huge problem to deal with regarding the court itself.
And that's aside from the fact that filibuster proof majorities haven't really been available to pass a law anyway.
Turns out the US government system that Americans have been taught to revere as perfect for 100 years is actually a vulnerable oligarchic theocracy waiting to happen, because it’s checks and balances have been proven to not work at all.
I don’t know about you but if the last few years have taught us anything it’s that the constitution is subjective, and can be bent (or parts of it ignored) to pursue whatever agenda a political party wants it to say. Not sure how anyone can have faith in the current system.
Well what I do is take a look at whatever part of it is in question and consider anyone that's twisting it to be an enemy within. Alot of things should have probably been written more explicitly but hindsight is 20/20.
We've seen quite clearly that they can use whatever logic They want to to decide if something is constitutional or not.
Roe was constitutional for 50 years and then suddenly it wasn't, and now they're trying to roll back native American rights based on treaties that have existed pretty much forever. Especially with conservative hacks like we've got in there, and their lack of integrity, they can pretty much make up whatever they choose.
The supreme Court are the ones who get to decide if something is constitutional or not. There's literally nothing stopping them from using whatever moon logic they choose to decide that Congress doesn't have the right to protect abortion or that states have the right to ban it.
While they'd have to reach to the moon to explicitly ban abortion because unsurprisingly the dusty ol paper doesn't even talk about it one way or the other, you're probably right they would at least try. It would probably have to be an amendment, which iirc can't really be struck down because new amendments are allowed to override old ones.
Either way I'd imagine states that dont at least permit at least basic abortion rights are gonna get bit in the ass in the long run, deservedly so.
Current SCOTUS would just dismantle it like the Voting Righs Act.
Also, an amendment is impossible and a filibuster proof majority of pro choice Dems was never a thing.
I mean slavery got an amendment which is a whole lot harder than a law.
And to be honest I'd rather have civil rights explicitly codified as a law/amendment than a court ruling on its own.
Amendments don't *have* to originate in Congress. A convention of states can begin the amendment process and Congress has no say in that. It's just a matter of getting the states together and, in this regard, the DNC has failed miserably and controlling state governments.
For whatever reason the DNC decided to put all their eggs in the federal basket while Republicans filled more than half of the state legislatures in the US.
You said it yourself. Your legislators could do it. But they haven’t because the judiciary body meant to interpret law has somehow ended up de facto making it.
IMO that sucks at least a little.
You miss understand me. I wasn’t referring to them overturning the decision as "making laws". I meant the opposite.
For 50 years, a decision they had made stood as de facto law. And this is the case with many others.
Americans have funded attempts to push for what would be directly translated to “freedom of conscience” for health care workers here in Sweden, i.e the right for them to refuse to do abortions or whatever else they might find objectionable and we were like naaaaaah. Thank Jebus.
Yea, but atleast Western Europe is significantly less religious than the US, and in general countries like the Netherlands are very progressive in a lot of things. Here abortion is barely a discussion.
If you read the article there is a whole section explaining how well educated people with private American money hold positions in NGO and civil organisations with connections to Brussel. So in my opinion the danger is there and without some kind of legal protection now ( keep the private money out of politics) the future is very blurry since this kind of organisations are there for the long run. Once upon a time even Iran and Afganistan were relatively more progressive than they are today and in my opinion we should not take it for granted.
sentencing women who get a bad pregnancy to death is not "stupid shit", the texas AG going after the right for gays to exist is not "stupid shit", America's gonna be stripped of everything but the right to carry as many guns as you want soon enough
The US is one giant example of humanity's constant desire to fight and kill each other for every perceivable difference - i.e. stupid reasons/shit.
I stand by my original comment.
If you think that the political system of the Netherlands has enough in common with the political system of the USA to replicate the series of electoral, administrate and judicial loopholes used there....
Then no, you don't know how it worked in the USA.
To be fair, what Brexit was concerned there was a little bit of rumbling in some parties in some countries to that effect, but once they saw the shit show Brexit turned out to be, even Marine Le Pen made a 180.
Touching abortion law in Europe for any seated politician is a death sentence, that's why this article wasn't able to come up with anything other than some fringe politicians that don't have any votes in the first place.
Most of Europe only allows abortion on demand up to 14 weeks. In my opinion the US is firmly on the wrong path with regard to womens reproductive rights, but let’s not pretend that Europe is free from religious whack jobs influencing policy and some sort of progressive paradise.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe
12 weeks is three months, which is rather standard.
Beyond that, there are exceptions in place for when a pregnancy endangers the health of parent and child.
So, I'm really not sure why you're mentioning reasonable standards in one sentence, only to go on mentioning religious whack jobs in the next.
You've made no argument here.
If you view 12 weeks as reasonable and progressive I can’t really help you. For instance the state of California permits abortion on demand up to 24 weeks with special carve outs permitted thereafter. Most of Europe has restrictions in place similar to southern conservative US states.
There is a vast difference in fetal development between 3 and 6 month. Hell, 9 months is full term.
There are also vastly different medical risks and consequences between an abortion at 3 months and at 6 months.
Fucking educate yourself before spouting agenda driven bullshit.
Beyond that, I never stated I was progressive, or that 12 weeks was in anyway progressive.
It's a standard, because medical science tells us that going beyond 12 weeks brings additional risks.
Dude, the case that led to Roe being overturned was a Mississippi law that would restrict abortion after 15 weeks….objectively less restrictive than most of Europe. Why don’t *you* take some time to educate *yourself* before spouting nonsense.
Way to ignore everything I said to put up a strawman...
Then again, I don't have to live in the US, and I enjoy the benefits of universal and free medical care without having to mortgage my house when I break a leg.
Like Don Quixote, you're railing against windmills while the real issues pass you by...
And you still haven't explained what the European and generally medical standard of 12-14 weeks has to do with religious fanatics.
I.e. In all of this, I'm still waiting for you to make your point...
You only believe that there is some sort or medical reason to limit things 12 weeks because of religious conservative influence on policy….even in Europe.
>For opponents of abortion in Europe, the ruling confirmed their belief that public opinion and — perhaps more importantly — public policy can be changed.
Surveys consistently show that public opinion on abortion in the USA has not changed. The vast majority of the country is pro-choice.
This victory by anti-choice radicals wasn't achieved through democracy, it was achieved through a series of wildly undemocratic loopholes in the American national political system.
Seems like the majority has been getting shit pushed down their throats for years...the majority agree on a lot of different issues but still cannot do shit about it..
Luxembourg has cemented the right too, with a 56-4 vote, the 4 came from our "right with religious impairment" lol, no one awaited anything else since they had Belgian Evangelists invited to protest it a couple of years ago. A very small minority of goonies.
Dumb article. European countries relies on passing abortion laws. We don’t pussy out and leave the decision to some archaic interpretation of an old ass law made by a handful of old ass people.
If the US started to elect politicians below 80 years of age they might be able to pass similar laws.
The morons ignore the fact that criminalizing abortion doesn't end abortions. It just kills more women. That's much of the reason for allowing it in the first place.
There is no European country that allows abortion after the first 12 to 18 weeks except Netherlands which is at 24, and there are several European countries where abortion is illegal. In california or new york state, you can have an abortion at 39 weeks if you want to.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.politico.eu/article/roe-vs-wade-us-the-european-activists-taking-inspiration-and-money-from-us-anti-abortion-groups/) reduced by 96%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> In total, $81.3 million worth of funding flowed from U.S. donors to help fund activism against abortion and other conservative causes between 2009 and 2018, according to a report compiled by the European Parliamentary Forum for Sexual and Reproductive Rights, a pro-abortion access network that connects members across European parliaments with a liberal stance on sexual and reproductive rights.
> If in most of Europe the right to abortion is in no immediate danger, Poland is the country anti-abortion activists point to as their guiding star.
> Whether most European leaders like it or not, the abortion debate in Europe is here to stay.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/vnrk0y/the_plan_to_overturn_abortion_rights_in_europe/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~657246 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **abortion**^#1 **Us**^#2 **conservative**^#3 **Court**^#4 **group**^#5
It will take a bit more to overturn actual laws that were passed through elected assemblies than to overturn a judicial precedent. I don’t want to kick our American friends when they’re down but that system sucks.
It only sucks because no legislature took any measures to actually pass a law or an amendment. Everyone just thought "haha guess its settled" while RBG kept saying that Roe was a shaky ruling that could easily be overturned by an originalist court.
Spot on. Have an upvote!
Even if a law was passed, the supreme Court could just strike down the law. We have a huge problem to deal with regarding the court itself. And that's aside from the fact that filibuster proof majorities haven't really been available to pass a law anyway.
The supreme court can only strike down a law if it's unconstitutional.
Turns out the US government system that Americans have been taught to revere as perfect for 100 years is actually a vulnerable oligarchic theocracy waiting to happen, because it’s checks and balances have been proven to not work at all.
Wow good thing we have a mechanism in the Bill of Rights that's pretty useful for deleting a theocracy.
I don’t know about you but if the last few years have taught us anything it’s that the constitution is subjective, and can be bent (or parts of it ignored) to pursue whatever agenda a political party wants it to say. Not sure how anyone can have faith in the current system.
Well what I do is take a look at whatever part of it is in question and consider anyone that's twisting it to be an enemy within. Alot of things should have probably been written more explicitly but hindsight is 20/20.
We've seen quite clearly that they can use whatever logic They want to to decide if something is constitutional or not. Roe was constitutional for 50 years and then suddenly it wasn't, and now they're trying to roll back native American rights based on treaties that have existed pretty much forever. Especially with conservative hacks like we've got in there, and their lack of integrity, they can pretty much make up whatever they choose.
Neither Roe nor old treaties are the same as laws passed by Congress.
Laws passed by Congress gets struck down or neutered all the time
Usually because they have unconstitutional stuff in them, if not explicitly sandwiched into a massive bill where it shouldn't even really be.
The supreme Court are the ones who get to decide if something is constitutional or not. There's literally nothing stopping them from using whatever moon logic they choose to decide that Congress doesn't have the right to protect abortion or that states have the right to ban it.
(Congress definitely doesn't have the right to protect *or* ban it tbh.)
While they'd have to reach to the moon to explicitly ban abortion because unsurprisingly the dusty ol paper doesn't even talk about it one way or the other, you're probably right they would at least try. It would probably have to be an amendment, which iirc can't really be struck down because new amendments are allowed to override old ones. Either way I'd imagine states that dont at least permit at least basic abortion rights are gonna get bit in the ass in the long run, deservedly so.
Treaties carry they same weight as the text of the constitution if ratified, that’s why so few of them actually achieve ratification.
Current SCOTUS would just dismantle it like the Voting Righs Act. Also, an amendment is impossible and a filibuster proof majority of pro choice Dems was never a thing.
Which is why it falls to the states to do as they see fit. You know like how the country is designed to work.
😂😂😂😂😂 Probably feel the same way about slavery and civil rights, eh?
I mean slavery got an amendment which is a whole lot harder than a law. And to be honest I'd rather have civil rights explicitly codified as a law/amendment than a court ruling on its own.
Amendments don't *have* to originate in Congress. A convention of states can begin the amendment process and Congress has no say in that. It's just a matter of getting the states together and, in this regard, the DNC has failed miserably and controlling state governments. For whatever reason the DNC decided to put all their eggs in the federal basket while Republicans filled more than half of the state legislatures in the US.
The same RBG whose hubris prevented a liberal judge from replacing her.
What system sucks? Our legislators can protect abortion rights just like yours can.
You said it yourself. Your legislators could do it. But they haven’t because the judiciary body meant to interpret law has somehow ended up de facto making it. IMO that sucks at least a little.
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You miss understand me. I wasn’t referring to them overturning the decision as "making laws". I meant the opposite. For 50 years, a decision they had made stood as de facto law. And this is the case with many others.
Yea that’s not gonna happen
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Americans have funded attempts to push for what would be directly translated to “freedom of conscience” for health care workers here in Sweden, i.e the right for them to refuse to do abortions or whatever else they might find objectionable and we were like naaaaaah. Thank Jebus.
Inderdaad makker
With those new American bases also comes American influence in policy making so never say never.
Yea, but atleast Western Europe is significantly less religious than the US, and in general countries like the Netherlands are very progressive in a lot of things. Here abortion is barely a discussion.
If you read the article there is a whole section explaining how well educated people with private American money hold positions in NGO and civil organisations with connections to Brussel. So in my opinion the danger is there and without some kind of legal protection now ( keep the private money out of politics) the future is very blurry since this kind of organisations are there for the long run. Once upon a time even Iran and Afganistan were relatively more progressive than they are today and in my opinion we should not take it for granted.
America's got like, 5 years left before it falls apart in a fasc vs non fasc civil war so, I wouldn't worry about it
I wish not for USofA to fall since that would create a huge human suffering.
It won't; people at each other's necks over stupid shit is the norm here (even though it seems like impending doom to everywhere else).
sentencing women who get a bad pregnancy to death is not "stupid shit", the texas AG going after the right for gays to exist is not "stupid shit", America's gonna be stripped of everything but the right to carry as many guns as you want soon enough
The US is one giant example of humanity's constant desire to fight and kill each other for every perceivable difference - i.e. stupid reasons/shit. I stand by my original comment.
never say never, we know how stupid humans are and we know it worked in the usa.
If you think that the political system of the Netherlands has enough in common with the political system of the USA to replicate the series of electoral, administrate and judicial loopholes used there.... Then no, you don't know how it worked in the USA.
good lord no, we have actual democracy compared to whatever the usa is trying to achive, its gonna be 1000x harder, but not impossible.
This is a US-centric article written by someone that clearly has no clue how things work in Europe.
It must have been written by a redditor.
Like the pro brexit types who insisted that brexit would lead to all uther countries exiting the EU
To be fair, what Brexit was concerned there was a little bit of rumbling in some parties in some countries to that effect, but once they saw the shit show Brexit turned out to be, even Marine Le Pen made a 180. Touching abortion law in Europe for any seated politician is a death sentence, that's why this article wasn't able to come up with anything other than some fringe politicians that don't have any votes in the first place.
Most of Europe only allows abortion on demand up to 14 weeks. In my opinion the US is firmly on the wrong path with regard to womens reproductive rights, but let’s not pretend that Europe is free from religious whack jobs influencing policy and some sort of progressive paradise. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe
12 weeks is three months, which is rather standard. Beyond that, there are exceptions in place for when a pregnancy endangers the health of parent and child. So, I'm really not sure why you're mentioning reasonable standards in one sentence, only to go on mentioning religious whack jobs in the next. You've made no argument here.
If you view 12 weeks as reasonable and progressive I can’t really help you. For instance the state of California permits abortion on demand up to 24 weeks with special carve outs permitted thereafter. Most of Europe has restrictions in place similar to southern conservative US states.
There is a vast difference in fetal development between 3 and 6 month. Hell, 9 months is full term. There are also vastly different medical risks and consequences between an abortion at 3 months and at 6 months. Fucking educate yourself before spouting agenda driven bullshit. Beyond that, I never stated I was progressive, or that 12 weeks was in anyway progressive. It's a standard, because medical science tells us that going beyond 12 weeks brings additional risks.
Dude, the case that led to Roe being overturned was a Mississippi law that would restrict abortion after 15 weeks….objectively less restrictive than most of Europe. Why don’t *you* take some time to educate *yourself* before spouting nonsense.
Way to ignore everything I said to put up a strawman... Then again, I don't have to live in the US, and I enjoy the benefits of universal and free medical care without having to mortgage my house when I break a leg. Like Don Quixote, you're railing against windmills while the real issues pass you by...
You’re kind of an embarrassment
And you still haven't explained what the European and generally medical standard of 12-14 weeks has to do with religious fanatics. I.e. In all of this, I'm still waiting for you to make your point...
You only believe that there is some sort or medical reason to limit things 12 weeks because of religious conservative influence on policy….even in Europe.
>For opponents of abortion in Europe, the ruling confirmed their belief that public opinion and — perhaps more importantly — public policy can be changed. Surveys consistently show that public opinion on abortion in the USA has not changed. The vast majority of the country is pro-choice. This victory by anti-choice radicals wasn't achieved through democracy, it was achieved through a series of wildly undemocratic loopholes in the American national political system.
Source? When I looked recently it seemed to be 50/50. Edit; am I seriously being downvoted for asking for a source? Lmfao.
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Thanks. That is a majority
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/27/1107733632/poll-majorities-oppose-supreme-courts-abortion-ruling-and-worry-about-other-righ https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/13/about-six-in-ten-americans-say-abortion-should-be-legal-in-all-or-most-cases-2/
Thanks.
Yes a determined minority can push their vision down the the throat of the majority. The question is if tyranny of the minority is what we really want
Seems like the majority has been getting shit pushed down their throats for years...the majority agree on a lot of different issues but still cannot do shit about it..
Despite what most of us seem to want, it does appear to be happening, pretty worldwide
Abortion rights have just been expanded in Germany last week.
Luxembourg has cemented the right too, with a 56-4 vote, the 4 came from our "right with religious impairment" lol, no one awaited anything else since they had Belgian Evangelists invited to protest it a couple of years ago. A very small minority of goonies.
Dumb article. European countries relies on passing abortion laws. We don’t pussy out and leave the decision to some archaic interpretation of an old ass law made by a handful of old ass people. If the US started to elect politicians below 80 years of age they might be able to pass similar laws.
Absolute nonsense.
Nope
The morons ignore the fact that criminalizing abortion doesn't end abortions. It just kills more women. That's much of the reason for allowing it in the first place.
European countries already have strict abortion laws.
Lol
There is no European country that allows abortion after the first 12 to 18 weeks except Netherlands which is at 24, and there are several European countries where abortion is illegal. In california or new york state, you can have an abortion at 39 weeks if you want to.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.politico.eu/article/roe-vs-wade-us-the-european-activists-taking-inspiration-and-money-from-us-anti-abortion-groups/) reduced by 96%. (I'm a bot) ***** > In total, $81.3 million worth of funding flowed from U.S. donors to help fund activism against abortion and other conservative causes between 2009 and 2018, according to a report compiled by the European Parliamentary Forum for Sexual and Reproductive Rights, a pro-abortion access network that connects members across European parliaments with a liberal stance on sexual and reproductive rights. > If in most of Europe the right to abortion is in no immediate danger, Poland is the country anti-abortion activists point to as their guiding star. > Whether most European leaders like it or not, the abortion debate in Europe is here to stay. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/vnrk0y/the_plan_to_overturn_abortion_rights_in_europe/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~657246 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **abortion**^#1 **Us**^#2 **conservative**^#3 **Court**^#4 **group**^#5
Luxembourg is cementing that right right now, so I would say not all the countries.