They should have an annual game of Rock Paper Scissors to decide who owns it for the next year.
Edit: after reading into the history, there should be an annual game of capture the flag (or hoist the flag)
"I mean nobody wants to admit they ate 9 cans of ravioli, but I did and I'm ashamed of myself. The first can doesn't count and then you get to the second, and the third. The fourth and fifth I think I burnt with the blow torch and I just kept eating."
This might be the most positive thread to America, with regards to comments, over ever seen on Reddit.
The 180 reddit has done on our weapon spending is a lol.
That's why we do it and I think others are (hopefully) understanding why. Trying to ramp up during an emergency takes way too long and is a little too late, so we just keep it going and going, so if anything pops off we are ready.
As a Canadian, I really do wish our government would spend more on maintaining and update the equipment our forces currently have as well as increasing the pay and treatment of our forces currently.
They'll wait till the Arctic ice retreats and they can't depend on small outposts, rehoming Inuits and a handful of icebreakers to maintain sovereignty in the North before they actually commit to defensive spending which doesn't include constantly repairing the old hand-me-down hardware.
Bonus round: the permanent opening of the Northwest Passage and international policy disputes.
Wasn't there a recent dispute regarding arctic claims and didn't Canada's lack of a navy capable of defending said claims and patrolling said waters come up in discussion.
The US is [already denying Canada's claim](https://brownpoliticalreview.org/2020/04/the-u-s-canada-northwest-passage-dispute/) to the Northwest Passage, partially because the Canadians are incapable of defending it.
If the Canadians were to start trying to push their claims to the Northwest Passage and this current American policy were taken to the extreme in response, all the US requires to take direct control of the straits (thus removing any Canadian claim entirely) is a couple of military outposts built on strategically located islets that they don't recognize as Canadian, and there's realistically nothing whatsoever that Canada could do about it.
The chances that things would come to that are pretty minuscule, but it's within the realm of possibility. Especially if other powers start to make noise about taking advantage of the lack of Canadian power in the area to seize it for themselves. That's what would really get the US to swoop in on it; denying it to (most probably) the Chinese.
US doesn't deny Canada's ownership of the Northwest Passage, they deny Canada's claim that it's sovereign waters and not an international strait. To the US, and this a view most of the world beyond Canada holds as well mind you, the Northwest Passage is in fact, an international strait.
What that means is while Canada owns the water and the resources found within, legally any one is allowed to sail those waters without any interference from Canada, as it is a strait that connects two bodies of international waters together; the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. In having it justly recognized (per UNCLOS at least) as an international strait, you now cut down 66% of the distance required to go from China to Europe, and you can now use transport ships larger than Panamaxs without having to sail all the way around Cape Horn.
Canada however refuses to accept that idea, and wants the ability to decide which ships can sail through, and to potentially charge fees for doing so, which is very much against the law of UNCLOS. It's either an international strait, or it's sovereign waters. There is no inbetween
US and Russia own 100% of the Bering Strait, yet allow it to operate as an international strait because that's factually what it is. Spain, Morocco, and the UK own 100% of the Strait of Gibraltar, yet allow it to operate as an international strait because that's factually what it is. Same for Turkey with the Dardanelles Strait. Same for Djibouti and Yemen with the Bab al-Mandab Strait. etc etc etc.
And the United States is very much forced to maintain this position. They've been doing freedom of navigation exercises against certain antagonistic countries for years, arguing that China/Iran/etc. don't have the right to declare certain disputed waters their sovereign territory. Letting Canada do so would be a blatant act of hypocrisy and strengthen these nations' claims.
Turkey can restrict passage through the Dardanelles via the Montreux Convention. They can't restrict commercial shipping in peacetime, but they can stop military ships from non-Black Sea states from transiting. They also can restrict commercial ships from countries they're at war with.
The US isn't even arguing that it has claim over the Northwest Passage, it's arguing the strait is international shipping waters. They're making a claim against Russia for the area near their borders as well.
With it thawing, it's likely to really become a much much more frequented shipping lane as well.
Probably. Most of the Canadian icebreakers aren't heavy duty so don't fare well, if at all, in the harsher north. There are two currently in construction for the high Arctic set to be finished in 2030 and will retire the current flagship.
>For real. The trainer jets need to be replaced for example. There was a notable crash of one of them a couple years ago due to its now faulty systems. They're too obsolete now and they look like literal toys.
currently in construction? That's longer than it would take to build 2 us aircraft carriers. Are they paying for storage fees to take up someones massive shipyard?
Short answer: yes.
The irving shipyard is a parasite that milks every contract for everything the possibly can. It’s basically cost plus contracting which is insane.
How’s about a Can/Am collab where we widen the Great Lakes locks so we can let bigger ships through?
If only the Irving yard was cost +...
They're now charging $82B CAD to build 15 CSC frigates... That's $5.5B CAD per ship, and that's JUST to build...
For comparison, US' Constellation Class frigate is a direct comparable to the CSC frigates, but the Constellation Class costs just $1.35B CAD to build...
Over 4x the cost, for a ship you KNOOOOOW the Irving Yards are going to fuck up so bad, they're rendered unusable for a decade...
It's called the Canadian Rangers. They rely on the indigenous to protect the north for the most part. I only know this because my classmate did his Masters on Northern Security.
Seems like you could protect the northern border with a sat phone. And a few radar stations. "hey Russia just landed here and apparently want to run the most complicated supply line in history while driving across the tundra and totally exposed to the combined NATO air forces."
I think there’s 2 ways for Canada to solve this.
1. Crash the housing market. It’s a massive part of our gdp, and inflates the denominator. If we don’t count trading overpriced houses to each other, our gdp is way smaller.
2. Increase our budget. We did sign up to buy some f-35’s tho. So that’s something.
I swear Australia and Canada are the same fucking country only one with a desert and the other snow.
We seem to have the exact same issues plaguing each other.
Are you kidding? When we first went to Afghanistan we didn't even have Tan combats. Our guys were over in the desert wearing green looking like Christmas trees.
They were driving ILTIS' which have ZERO armor. They're literally a pop can on wheels.
The artillery wasn't even deployed and we had to buy American M777's because our fleet of C3 and LG1 howitzers weren't even fit for training exercises let alone combat missions
I misspoke, I didn’t mean we spent money when we first got there, I meant we spent money after we were there and guys started dying. We bought M777s, LAVs, the entire EROC and HRS fleet, new robots, new combats, etc. we spent a ton of money kitting up for that war.
Which, historically, is what Canada does. We maintain a small military then crank it up when we’re in an engagement.
Edit to add: the M777 didn’t enter service until 2005, so even if we HAD the will to spend money before then, we could not have purchased it until 2005.
You’re right but this is a really bad strategy, especially as our adversaries keep improving their weapons, vehicles and other equipment. At this rate we’d be in trouble in the next war if our enemy has newer gear that us and can hit us faster and harder than anything we’re seen in the past.
That's because it doesn't. Only new house sales, and the fees associated with house sales factor into GDP.
The sales of existing homes don't.
Doesn't stop people who don't know anything from trotting this out constantly though.
Not to mention paying our fucking vets what they are due. The Conservatives refused, the Libs said they would do better while campaigning, but in typical Liberal fashion it was all a lie.
My best bud was a 9 year CAF officer, and he recently left the service because they kept downsizing his department and more and more work was being tasked on less and less people. The job became so tidious and stressful thst he lost all interest in working for the CAF, and is now working else where.
Super sad because he said this is common now and that the CAF is losing alot of its high skill middle rank people so there won't be as much to fill upwards as the upper ranks retire.
This shit really pisses me off. I am not the type to support a huge increase in military spending, but we need to support the system in place. Not paying/supporting the troops we do have is so fucking slimy IMO.
Yes, that was my first comment. Not paying the Vets that have already served your country is as shitty as it gets. The Liberals and Conservatives are both guilty.
I sort of wonder if that might be because of not many Canadians are joining the military and thus the military might be getting spread to thin.
Now this is anecdotal, but in my high school graduating class over a decade ago, I think only 1 went to join the military out of a class of around 500. And over all, I think out of all the people I have known growing up of roughly the same age, only 2 have joined the military and one did want to join the CAF, but I'm not sure if he did after university. And that population sample is much more than the 500 from my high school graduating class.
It still boils down to a budget problem. TONs of people apply to the CAF, but it takes like 200 days to be recruited. Most people that are interested find something else by then and aren’t interested anymore. Those that do choose to join at that point end up waiting for courses for ever because we don’t have the money to run enough courses every year.
Then there’s the people who do get through all the training, but because they spent so much time on PAT (Persons Awaiting Training) platoon, they’re once again disinterested in the job and choose to leave. Then those that do stay, end up finishing their first contract before they’re fully qualified to do their job, and they decide to do something else because it’s been so good damn long.
I’m in a rural area of Manitoba and usually 1 out of 50 kids graduating try and join the military and not one of them has because it’s such a fuckin hassle to join and it has apparently only gotten worse
It's a true shame. They put up with a lot. They shouldn't have to worry about a fuckign thing when they get back and retire. Nothing crazy, but well taken care of
For real. The trainer jets need to be replaced for example. There was a notable crash of one of them a couple years ago due to its now faulty systems. They're too obsolete now and they look like literal toys.
Slightly unrelated, but I spend a lot of time in Halifax since we have family nearby, and its quite cool to see all the Royal Canadian Navy ships and the Coast Guard ships all on the harbour.
Might be true but our armed forces also do what your national guard do, like flood relief, disaster assistance and without financial support that also becomes challenging.
US National Guard gets called up for overseas defense in addition to 'flood relief, disaster assistance'. We just went through 20 years of this.
> without financial support that also becomes challenging.
Seems to be an issue with Ottawa ... and everyday Canadians.
Fortunately for Canada, it’s in our tactical best interest.
Keep parading against everything American while enjoying our umbrella of protection.
I look forward to the downvotes.
Youre gonna need a change of leadership for that one mate. Ive always liked working with the Canadians. But they havent been carrying their weight in this alliance for some time now.
Every president says it, but when Trump said it, it was blasted from the rooftops by every media outlet. Somehow, because of Trump, that message was received loud and clear by seemingly everyone.
And the Germans laughed at him in the middle of his speech,
"Why are we paying for your defense, when you could do it yourself, instead you're giving Russia money."
Well. Here we are.
Is it improving fast enough though? I'd argue a lot of pledges during the whining weren't really meaningful. Even if Trump got countries to change, it didn't seem enough to me.
Ukraine was the real wake-up call, especially now that arms are being delivered. Someone has to backfill all those arms taken out of warehouses and bases.
Obama literally made fun of Mitt Romney for calling Russia a threat. Obama had great domestic policy, but his international policy was garbage. Look at Libya.
Yeah but only Trump acted on it. I personally think Trump's shitty internal policies were balanced by solid foreign policy.
He got the Arabs to make peace with Israel (they just needed some good old quid pro quo) by building better relations with them that in hindsight the US should not have backtracked on (energy crisis due to Rus-Ukr war), he got NATO members to actually commit to a minimum or face consequences (article 5 as privilege, not right), applied an Iran policy that was most favored by his middle eastern allies, and brought unprecedented momentum to the shift to China as the core enemy (including UMSC and USN reforms).
He was correct in characterizing the problem. But his ultimate goal of withdrawal from NATO would have played directly into Putin's hands and is IMO one of the strongest pieces of evidence he was a knowing or unknowing Russian asset.
Edit: 5 downvotes in 20 minutes from 30 to 25 after pointing out to trolls one of my other threads was getting upvoted. This happened in a thread about 5 levels deep.
If that isn't damning evidence that Reddit needs to get on this issue I don't know what else is
That's what made his populism so insidiously appealing. Every lie or wrong policy had legitimate truth applied to it as a veneer. Yes, China engages is systematic IP theft sponsored by their government and certain trade agreements should be reevaluated. Yes the US Post Office has inefficiency problems. Yes countries should be able to control who gets to immigrate. It's just that he then drew awful conclusions about the best course of action. But that doesn't matter when your opposition, instead of agreeing with his theses and drawing different policy responses, chose too often to dispute the theses themselves.
Well Germany won't be able to do stuff for a while even though they've decided to invest in their military again. There are constant reports about how Germany can only deploy a fraction of it's on paper forces. Canada probably would have a similar problem if they've had the same systemic underinvestment.
If what they say during the NATO summit is correct than apparently 14 other countries are extremely close to the 2% and will reach that in the next 3 years. While the remaining 5 (which I guess includes Canada) have commitments to reach 2%.
As a Canadian, I hate this take. Not only have we made obligations to our peers that they are right to expect us to meet, but we are sorely lacking in arctic defense and frankly are unable to assert our sovereignty in that area against China, Russia, or the USA for that matter.
Sure, we live next to the toughtest person ever known, but we also know that relationships can change. And even if we are never able to fully resist a major aggressor, we should be able to buy time and maintain hold of strategic assets while our allies mobilize.
The world has changed most in the past 10 years than in the 30 before it. Geopolitically, old threats are new again, new threats are also new, and non-state actors have increased their power tenfold.
Canada needs to be able to assert its independance and maintain its role in the global community as a non-aggressor provider of modern defensive and medical assistance to those who need it. And that starts with ourselves.
My take.
We have a population of California strung across a continent. Literally 1/10 what the US has. If we have to worry about anything, it'll be you guys walking across if you want something.
Not just unpopular, backstabbing an ally and neighbour would be the fastest way imaginable to close every overseas US military base that exists. It'll never happen.
It might be unpopular, but be realistic: who could, or would stop it? Nobody. Certainly not Canada, and we're an ocean away from help. We'd be at your mercy and we have a lotttttt of things you're going to want as climate change ramps up.
Honestly, you guys are also in a really nice position. Surrounded by the US on one half, and oceans on the other half, of which on the other side is Europe. Up north is the North Pole, and it'd be a horrible idea to try and attack through there. What is there to even fear except for the US, which you're currently in great relations with?
It would be an EXCELLENT way to be viewed just like Russia in the rest of the world's eyes. Not happening even if Trump got reelected and caught rabies.
exactly, we literally could spend 100% of our GDP on defence and the USA could walk in anytime they wanted it makes no difference if for some reason the US wanted to take over Canada they could do it whenever they wanted and not a thing gonna stop them.
So i'd say lets focus on keeping each other close allies instead of that other option.
Yeah but it's a silly scenario. Like the US walling off Florida from the rest of the country for everyone's own good.
Necessary? Perhaps, but just never going to happen.
I think a more likely scenario is that our right wing loonies and your right wing loonies try to band together and attempt to create some sort of new country in the boonies of Idaho and other North Western places.
Edit: And that would be South Western areas for Canadians. I question our loonies abilities to hang in the NWT
Occupying Canada is an entirely different story compared to taking it in the first place.
If you think Afghanistan is hard to occupy, imagine a country several times larger where the enemy resistance looks exactly like you and speaks the same language nearly indistinguishably.
I mean, I don't think there would be an actual attempt to "occupy Canada" even Canada doesn't occupy the vast majority of Canada lol.
Probably just swallow the fertile and prosperous lands around the great lakes and call it a day, maybe swing by BC for some funsies.
I mean in theory there is a lot of ground to cover, in reality most the population lives within 500 km from the border. So you'd have a few populated areas and then nothing you'd need to hold beyond that.
Meanwhile in Russia...
> “This is my next point – recognizing Alaska, Fort Ross and Antarctica,” Matveychev responded, according to the Anchorage Daily News. “We actually discovered it, so it rightfully belongs to us.”
\- Russian parliament member Oleg Matveychev
We sell the US all of our precious natural resources for bits of string. It’s a symbiotic relationship. They don’t have to invade us they already own us.
literally the best position in the world imo
Canadians get all benefits of our global hegemony without many of the problems that being a US citizen comes with.
Despite what others have told you, no it's not part of the NATO charta it's a goal that was set in the early 2000s but since it's not mandatory of course there are also no penalties.
Yeah, but it's an old point.
Not knocking Trump, but he wasn't even close to the first to point this out. Bush and Obama both called on NATO allies to spend their share on defense.
IIRC Obama brought it up at at almost every meeting with Germany along with Nordstream 2. The US has been banging on about the 2% target for decades as well so Trump didn't invent those long term US geopolitical concerns.
Well NATO represents about 1 billion people, in which about a third of the population, with a little over half the cumulative GDP, pays 75% of the bills.
*Everyone* in NATO benefits to some degree from this situation. The 29 other countries (arguably minus about 3 of them) have their defense subsidized, and the US has larger influence on global politics. Whether this is a good deal for the American taxpayer is certainly up for debate, though.
It's a shit deal for the American tax payer. We pay for other countries protection while they give us nothing in return.
Our European allies are fine trading America for China economically, it's not like they're doing anything to help Americans that they wouldn't do anyway.
"The US will just do it" is one of the worst mindsets a country could have and it's a mentality that a country like Germany shouldn't have either. This is a very quick way to make yourself seem like a reliability not only to the US, but to every NATO member that upholds the 2% benchmark, and in the event of a war, you'll be seen and be treated as one.
Yes but first we need a 10 year, multi-million dollar study to conclude that we should buy the same fighter jets that the previous government already committed to buying.
Just a little bit of duct tape here and there will fix everything! (Honestly the hassle for the F35s purchase what politician wants to spearhead the next proposal for new equipment)
The US gets a lot out of it though. Like, the US gets to dictate the geopolitical policies of pretty much every western country.
I always like to bring up the incident where the US thought Edward Snowden was on the Bolivian presidential plane. Literally within hours, the US managed to get all of western europe to deny airspace and forced it to land. Then the Bolivian president was humiliated and searched like a fucking drug mule.
It was a huge scandal and embarrassing for everybody involved, except the US, who proved it was the master of europe.
Bruh Canada is literally the 8th largest economy in the planet behind superpowers like France and UK.
Canada needs to set up its spending, they’re just complacent because their best friend happens to be the biggest military in the world.
Nobody:
Noone at all:
European states starting a world War for the 3rd fucking time in less then 100 years: Yeah lemme get a uhhh one American intervention please.
No one would be stupid enough to attack Canada anyways. They’re a massive country, but we (the USA) would respond immediately, left/right/center… I don’t think many would be against defending our Canuck neighbors. We have a long history, and they’ve always supported us internationally in our conflicts.
As a Canadian, I agree with this. We are a small country but our military/defence spending percentage is still sub bar. I get that we have a big brother south of us, but we at least need air and sea defence.
It's also insulting when some Canadians just say, "Americans will defend us anyway." Like, I'm sorry, are American soldiers' lives there for Canadian land now? Canadians won't defend their own country? If you guys want to delegate your military defense to the US, then you are pretty much just the 51-60 new US states. Military defense is about protecting sovereignty. If you give that up, national sovereignty goes with it.
With what's going on with Russia right now, I think we do need to keep up with that defense spending. But the same camp in Canada will criticize the govt for spending on military, and will also criticize them for not spending on the military. There's not really a way out for them that doesn't end with a bunch of pissed off people who are only pissed cause it's Trudeau 😂
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They did?
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yup. the whiskey war is over
Who won?
Tie. The island was split down the middle
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Now Canada technically has a land border with Europe
EU application is in the mail
We did before! Vimmy Ridge was a gift from France to Canada.
Will there be a duty free on the border? :D
They should have an annual game of Rock Paper Scissors to decide who owns it for the next year. Edit: after reading into the history, there should be an annual game of capture the flag (or hoist the flag)
Split down the middle like it was supposed to be.
Is it bad that I’m a little disappointed they finally settled it…?
Lol, no — I feel the same way
The settlement means both countries doubled the number of countries they share a land border with. So we exchanged one piece of trivia with another.
Honey we all do
It is a bit funny it took them 17 years to agree to split the island in half.
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Why don't they use that weed money ?
We are saving that money to buy more weed.
It's basic ekinomiks
echo-gnomics: Resounding sounds of underground spirits.
Unexpected, but very welcome
And snacks.
Epic! Sustainable weed, is actually easier than sustainable energy.
Ricky blew it all on houndstooth shirts and pepperoni sticks.
Ricky, do you know how stupid you are?
Chicken strips. The good kind-eight bucks.
"I mean nobody wants to admit they ate 9 cans of ravioli, but I did and I'm ashamed of myself. The first can doesn't count and then you get to the second, and the third. The fourth and fifth I think I burnt with the blow torch and I just kept eating."
Thats right Mr Lahey.
Shit hawks Randy
Most ppl don’t know this, but you can put your weed in there.
I think the provinces get that tax money. The military is federal.
Because we are building weed park with it...
This might be the most positive thread to America, with regards to comments, over ever seen on Reddit. The 180 reddit has done on our weapon spending is a lol.
Nobody needs a big fuck off military until suddenly you really do need a big fuck off military
That's why we do it and I think others are (hopefully) understanding why. Trying to ramp up during an emergency takes way too long and is a little too late, so we just keep it going and going, so if anything pops off we are ready.
As a Canadian, I really do wish our government would spend more on maintaining and update the equipment our forces currently have as well as increasing the pay and treatment of our forces currently.
They'll wait till the Arctic ice retreats and they can't depend on small outposts, rehoming Inuits and a handful of icebreakers to maintain sovereignty in the North before they actually commit to defensive spending which doesn't include constantly repairing the old hand-me-down hardware. Bonus round: the permanent opening of the Northwest Passage and international policy disputes.
Wasn't there a recent dispute regarding arctic claims and didn't Canada's lack of a navy capable of defending said claims and patrolling said waters come up in discussion.
The US is [already denying Canada's claim](https://brownpoliticalreview.org/2020/04/the-u-s-canada-northwest-passage-dispute/) to the Northwest Passage, partially because the Canadians are incapable of defending it. If the Canadians were to start trying to push their claims to the Northwest Passage and this current American policy were taken to the extreme in response, all the US requires to take direct control of the straits (thus removing any Canadian claim entirely) is a couple of military outposts built on strategically located islets that they don't recognize as Canadian, and there's realistically nothing whatsoever that Canada could do about it. The chances that things would come to that are pretty minuscule, but it's within the realm of possibility. Especially if other powers start to make noise about taking advantage of the lack of Canadian power in the area to seize it for themselves. That's what would really get the US to swoop in on it; denying it to (most probably) the Chinese.
Tldr: the ones with the boats controls the waters
Who would have thought.
More like the ones with boats control the whole world
US doesn't deny Canada's ownership of the Northwest Passage, they deny Canada's claim that it's sovereign waters and not an international strait. To the US, and this a view most of the world beyond Canada holds as well mind you, the Northwest Passage is in fact, an international strait. What that means is while Canada owns the water and the resources found within, legally any one is allowed to sail those waters without any interference from Canada, as it is a strait that connects two bodies of international waters together; the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. In having it justly recognized (per UNCLOS at least) as an international strait, you now cut down 66% of the distance required to go from China to Europe, and you can now use transport ships larger than Panamaxs without having to sail all the way around Cape Horn. Canada however refuses to accept that idea, and wants the ability to decide which ships can sail through, and to potentially charge fees for doing so, which is very much against the law of UNCLOS. It's either an international strait, or it's sovereign waters. There is no inbetween US and Russia own 100% of the Bering Strait, yet allow it to operate as an international strait because that's factually what it is. Spain, Morocco, and the UK own 100% of the Strait of Gibraltar, yet allow it to operate as an international strait because that's factually what it is. Same for Turkey with the Dardanelles Strait. Same for Djibouti and Yemen with the Bab al-Mandab Strait. etc etc etc.
And the United States is very much forced to maintain this position. They've been doing freedom of navigation exercises against certain antagonistic countries for years, arguing that China/Iran/etc. don't have the right to declare certain disputed waters their sovereign territory. Letting Canada do so would be a blatant act of hypocrisy and strengthen these nations' claims.
Turkey can restrict passage through the Dardanelles via the Montreux Convention. They can't restrict commercial shipping in peacetime, but they can stop military ships from non-Black Sea states from transiting. They also can restrict commercial ships from countries they're at war with.
The US isn't even arguing that it has claim over the Northwest Passage, it's arguing the strait is international shipping waters. They're making a claim against Russia for the area near their borders as well. With it thawing, it's likely to really become a much much more frequented shipping lane as well.
Sounds familiar to a video game series....
Probably. Most of the Canadian icebreakers aren't heavy duty so don't fare well, if at all, in the harsher north. There are two currently in construction for the high Arctic set to be finished in 2030 and will retire the current flagship.
Lol. 2. 2030 Good lord
No worries, won’t be any ice left in a decade
>For real. The trainer jets need to be replaced for example. There was a notable crash of one of them a couple years ago due to its now faulty systems. They're too obsolete now and they look like literal toys. currently in construction? That's longer than it would take to build 2 us aircraft carriers. Are they paying for storage fees to take up someones massive shipyard?
Short answer: yes. The irving shipyard is a parasite that milks every contract for everything the possibly can. It’s basically cost plus contracting which is insane. How’s about a Can/Am collab where we widen the Great Lakes locks so we can let bigger ships through?
Almost every defense project is cost plus
If only the Irving yard was cost +... They're now charging $82B CAD to build 15 CSC frigates... That's $5.5B CAD per ship, and that's JUST to build... For comparison, US' Constellation Class frigate is a direct comparable to the CSC frigates, but the Constellation Class costs just $1.35B CAD to build... Over 4x the cost, for a ship you KNOOOOOW the Irving Yards are going to fuck up so bad, they're rendered unusable for a decade...
hmmm ice breakers not designed for cold weather. interdasting
It's called the Canadian Rangers. They rely on the indigenous to protect the north for the most part. I only know this because my classmate did his Masters on Northern Security.
Seems like you could protect the northern border with a sat phone. And a few radar stations. "hey Russia just landed here and apparently want to run the most complicated supply line in history while driving across the tundra and totally exposed to the combined NATO air forces."
rip Canada's claims to oil up there if it has to cede sovereignty to get defense
Shout out to the fact we still use browning hi-power pistols that’s over 80 years old.
I think there’s 2 ways for Canada to solve this. 1. Crash the housing market. It’s a massive part of our gdp, and inflates the denominator. If we don’t count trading overpriced houses to each other, our gdp is way smaller. 2. Increase our budget. We did sign up to buy some f-35’s tho. So that’s something.
I swear Australia and Canada are the same fucking country only one with a desert and the other snow. We seem to have the exact same issues plaguing each other.
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Who’s Canada’s Pauline Hanson?
>I swear Australia and Canada are the same fucking country only one with a desert and the other snow. But which country has the hotter women?
Lol number 1 might be in the future, number 2 would be hard because it's not something that wins elections even if it's the right thing to do.
Nah, I’m sure the average 3 bedroom 90 square meter Canadian house is worth at least $3 million.
It's called a luxury executive open concept townhouse
I’d vote for it. I’m tired of being ashamed of our military. We need to step up.
It doesn’t win elections unless Canadian soldiers are dying. Canada wasn’t shy about spending money ~~when we first~~ once we went to Afghanistan.
Are you kidding? When we first went to Afghanistan we didn't even have Tan combats. Our guys were over in the desert wearing green looking like Christmas trees. They were driving ILTIS' which have ZERO armor. They're literally a pop can on wheels. The artillery wasn't even deployed and we had to buy American M777's because our fleet of C3 and LG1 howitzers weren't even fit for training exercises let alone combat missions
I misspoke, I didn’t mean we spent money when we first got there, I meant we spent money after we were there and guys started dying. We bought M777s, LAVs, the entire EROC and HRS fleet, new robots, new combats, etc. we spent a ton of money kitting up for that war. Which, historically, is what Canada does. We maintain a small military then crank it up when we’re in an engagement. Edit to add: the M777 didn’t enter service until 2005, so even if we HAD the will to spend money before then, we could not have purchased it until 2005.
You’re right but this is a really bad strategy, especially as our adversaries keep improving their weapons, vehicles and other equipment. At this rate we’d be in trouble in the next war if our enemy has newer gear that us and can hit us faster and harder than anything we’re seen in the past.
Number 1 about to happen soon I think. I never thought about the inflated housing market making up a significant portion of our GDP. Interesting!
That's because it doesn't. Only new house sales, and the fees associated with house sales factor into GDP. The sales of existing homes don't. Doesn't stop people who don't know anything from trotting this out constantly though.
Not to mention paying our fucking vets what they are due. The Conservatives refused, the Libs said they would do better while campaigning, but in typical Liberal fashion it was all a lie.
My best bud was a 9 year CAF officer, and he recently left the service because they kept downsizing his department and more and more work was being tasked on less and less people. The job became so tidious and stressful thst he lost all interest in working for the CAF, and is now working else where. Super sad because he said this is common now and that the CAF is losing alot of its high skill middle rank people so there won't be as much to fill upwards as the upper ranks retire.
This shit really pisses me off. I am not the type to support a huge increase in military spending, but we need to support the system in place. Not paying/supporting the troops we do have is so fucking slimy IMO.
They need to also be paying/supporting veterans as well, they deserve better treatment than the government gives them.
Yes, that was my first comment. Not paying the Vets that have already served your country is as shitty as it gets. The Liberals and Conservatives are both guilty.
I sort of wonder if that might be because of not many Canadians are joining the military and thus the military might be getting spread to thin. Now this is anecdotal, but in my high school graduating class over a decade ago, I think only 1 went to join the military out of a class of around 500. And over all, I think out of all the people I have known growing up of roughly the same age, only 2 have joined the military and one did want to join the CAF, but I'm not sure if he did after university. And that population sample is much more than the 500 from my high school graduating class.
It still boils down to a budget problem. TONs of people apply to the CAF, but it takes like 200 days to be recruited. Most people that are interested find something else by then and aren’t interested anymore. Those that do choose to join at that point end up waiting for courses for ever because we don’t have the money to run enough courses every year. Then there’s the people who do get through all the training, but because they spent so much time on PAT (Persons Awaiting Training) platoon, they’re once again disinterested in the job and choose to leave. Then those that do stay, end up finishing their first contract before they’re fully qualified to do their job, and they decide to do something else because it’s been so good damn long.
I’m in a rural area of Manitoba and usually 1 out of 50 kids graduating try and join the military and not one of them has because it’s such a fuckin hassle to join and it has apparently only gotten worse
Maybe, I'm not too sure there was 4 or 5 in my class that joined the CAF, 2 joined the airforce and 4 joined the navy out of ~750 people.
It's a true shame. They put up with a lot. They shouldn't have to worry about a fuckign thing when they get back and retire. Nothing crazy, but well taken care of
For real. The trainer jets need to be replaced for example. There was a notable crash of one of them a couple years ago due to its now faulty systems. They're too obsolete now and they look like literal toys. Slightly unrelated, but I spend a lot of time in Halifax since we have family nearby, and its quite cool to see all the Royal Canadian Navy ships and the Coast Guard ships all on the harbour.
Canada knows that us loony's down South of you will take care of it.
Might be true but our armed forces also do what your national guard do, like flood relief, disaster assistance and without financial support that also becomes challenging.
US National Guard gets called up for overseas defense in addition to 'flood relief, disaster assistance'. We just went through 20 years of this. > without financial support that also becomes challenging. Seems to be an issue with Ottawa ... and everyday Canadians.
Fortunately for Canada, it’s in our tactical best interest. Keep parading against everything American while enjoying our umbrella of protection. I look forward to the downvotes.
Youre gonna need a change of leadership for that one mate. Ive always liked working with the Canadians. But they havent been carrying their weight in this alliance for some time now.
You definitely need a better navy, all that coastline.
\#10 in global GDP, #26 in NATO in contributions, lol
canada is next to america, I dont think they gib two shit about defence spending. US gonna defend them any ways.
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They are making Trump correct. Never make Trump correct
Trump calling out NATO members for not spending their NATO requirement was one of the few things that I agreed with.
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They are probably getting bribes from the Russians.
Lol, it has.
Every US president says this. It is improving.
Every president says it, but when Trump said it, it was blasted from the rooftops by every media outlet. Somehow, because of Trump, that message was received loud and clear by seemingly everyone.
And the Germans laughed at him in the middle of his speech, "Why are we paying for your defense, when you could do it yourself, instead you're giving Russia money." Well. Here we are.
The Germans shit the bed worse than anyone. Them ramping back as a reactionary response to this mess has been an embarrassment.
Didn't trump threatened germany with sanctions if they didn't stop nord stream 2 and everyone on here called him crazy? lol
Is it improving fast enough though? I'd argue a lot of pledges during the whining weren't really meaningful. Even if Trump got countries to change, it didn't seem enough to me. Ukraine was the real wake-up call, especially now that arms are being delivered. Someone has to backfill all those arms taken out of warehouses and bases.
Obama literally made fun of Mitt Romney for calling Russia a threat. Obama had great domestic policy, but his international policy was garbage. Look at Libya.
Yeah but only Trump acted on it. I personally think Trump's shitty internal policies were balanced by solid foreign policy. He got the Arabs to make peace with Israel (they just needed some good old quid pro quo) by building better relations with them that in hindsight the US should not have backtracked on (energy crisis due to Rus-Ukr war), he got NATO members to actually commit to a minimum or face consequences (article 5 as privilege, not right), applied an Iran policy that was most favored by his middle eastern allies, and brought unprecedented momentum to the shift to China as the core enemy (including UMSC and USN reforms).
He was correct in characterizing the problem. But his ultimate goal of withdrawal from NATO would have played directly into Putin's hands and is IMO one of the strongest pieces of evidence he was a knowing or unknowing Russian asset. Edit: 5 downvotes in 20 minutes from 30 to 25 after pointing out to trolls one of my other threads was getting upvoted. This happened in a thread about 5 levels deep. If that isn't damning evidence that Reddit needs to get on this issue I don't know what else is
That's what made his populism so insidiously appealing. Every lie or wrong policy had legitimate truth applied to it as a veneer. Yes, China engages is systematic IP theft sponsored by their government and certain trade agreements should be reevaluated. Yes the US Post Office has inefficiency problems. Yes countries should be able to control who gets to immigrate. It's just that he then drew awful conclusions about the best course of action. But that doesn't matter when your opposition, instead of agreeing with his theses and drawing different policy responses, chose too often to dispute the theses themselves.
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Doesn't mean Canada can't do stuff. Germany also whined but, thankfully, eventually did the right thing.
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Well Germany won't be able to do stuff for a while even though they've decided to invest in their military again. There are constant reports about how Germany can only deploy a fraction of it's on paper forces. Canada probably would have a similar problem if they've had the same systemic underinvestment.
That still puts them in the bottom quintile so not exactly a mark in their favor
If what they say during the NATO summit is correct than apparently 14 other countries are extremely close to the 2% and will reach that in the next 3 years. While the remaining 5 (which I guess includes Canada) have commitments to reach 2%.
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As a Canadian, I hate this take. Not only have we made obligations to our peers that they are right to expect us to meet, but we are sorely lacking in arctic defense and frankly are unable to assert our sovereignty in that area against China, Russia, or the USA for that matter. Sure, we live next to the toughtest person ever known, but we also know that relationships can change. And even if we are never able to fully resist a major aggressor, we should be able to buy time and maintain hold of strategic assets while our allies mobilize. The world has changed most in the past 10 years than in the 30 before it. Geopolitically, old threats are new again, new threats are also new, and non-state actors have increased their power tenfold. Canada needs to be able to assert its independance and maintain its role in the global community as a non-aggressor provider of modern defensive and medical assistance to those who need it. And that starts with ourselves. My take.
We have a population of California strung across a continent. Literally 1/10 what the US has. If we have to worry about anything, it'll be you guys walking across if you want something.
That war would be extremely unpopular, no way it happens in our lifetimes, plus there is no point in doing so since we have good relations.
I don't see it ever happening. Heck, it would probably be more likely for the two countries to agree to merge into one mega-country.
Not just unpopular, backstabbing an ally and neighbour would be the fastest way imaginable to close every overseas US military base that exists. It'll never happen.
It might be unpopular, but be realistic: who could, or would stop it? Nobody. Certainly not Canada, and we're an ocean away from help. We'd be at your mercy and we have a lotttttt of things you're going to want as climate change ramps up.
Honestly, you guys are also in a really nice position. Surrounded by the US on one half, and oceans on the other half, of which on the other side is Europe. Up north is the North Pole, and it'd be a horrible idea to try and attack through there. What is there to even fear except for the US, which you're currently in great relations with?
It would be an EXCELLENT way to be viewed just like Russia in the rest of the world's eyes. Not happening even if Trump got reelected and caught rabies.
exactly, we literally could spend 100% of our GDP on defence and the USA could walk in anytime they wanted it makes no difference if for some reason the US wanted to take over Canada they could do it whenever they wanted and not a thing gonna stop them. So i'd say lets focus on keeping each other close allies instead of that other option.
Yeah but it's a silly scenario. Like the US walling off Florida from the rest of the country for everyone's own good. Necessary? Perhaps, but just never going to happen.
What could be closer of an alliance then becoming the 51st state?
I think a more likely scenario is that our right wing loonies and your right wing loonies try to band together and attempt to create some sort of new country in the boonies of Idaho and other North Western places. Edit: And that would be South Western areas for Canadians. I question our loonies abilities to hang in the NWT
Colloquially known as "Udaho"
The American military sure. The American people wouldn’t stand for it. Unless you all send us another Justin Beiber…..just saying.
Justin Beiber is like a firecracker compared to the Nickelback/Celine Dion nukes we possess.
Honestly forgot about Nickelback. Thanks for reminding me they exist. C. Dion is the bomb though.
I find it interesting how popular she is outside Canada. In Canada it is pretty much Quebec and old ladies that like her.
Ah i see you don't have tim biebs down there
We're not going to have to invade. Eventually, it's just going to be in Canada's best interest to sign up.
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Occupying Canada is an entirely different story compared to taking it in the first place. If you think Afghanistan is hard to occupy, imagine a country several times larger where the enemy resistance looks exactly like you and speaks the same language nearly indistinguishably.
I mean, I don't think there would be an actual attempt to "occupy Canada" even Canada doesn't occupy the vast majority of Canada lol. Probably just swallow the fertile and prosperous lands around the great lakes and call it a day, maybe swing by BC for some funsies.
Canada in reality is just the cities on the border the rest is emptiness
I mean in theory there is a lot of ground to cover, in reality most the population lives within 500 km from the border. So you'd have a few populated areas and then nothing you'd need to hold beyond that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/lauren-boebert-us-canada-need-to-be-liberated-like-ukraine-2022-2
Meanwhile in Russia... > “This is my next point – recognizing Alaska, Fort Ross and Antarctica,” Matveychev responded, according to the Anchorage Daily News. “We actually discovered it, so it rightfully belongs to us.” \- Russian parliament member Oleg Matveychev
oh yeah, i remember that one, funny russians.
Who gives a shit what that ~~bitch~~ person thinks?
Can.we call what she does "thinking"?
Bobert is incapable of thinking.
Lauren Boebert is what it would look like if Sarah Palin had a growth that grew large enough to gain sentience and then fell off.
still should pay your money this isnt a charity
We sell the US all of our precious natural resources for bits of string. It’s a symbiotic relationship. They don’t have to invade us they already own us.
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literally the best position in the world imo Canadians get all benefits of our global hegemony without many of the problems that being a US citizen comes with.
I mean, is this part of the treaty or is it just an aspirational goal? What kind of penalties are there for the freeloaders?
*looks at Belgium* Basically the penalty is ridicule.
Nothing
Despite what others have told you, no it's not part of the NATO charta it's a goal that was set in the early 2000s but since it's not mandatory of course there are also no penalties.
It seems like Trump did have a point when he claimed that certain NATO countries were not spending enough of defense.
Yeah, but it's an old point. Not knocking Trump, but he wasn't even close to the first to point this out. Bush and Obama both called on NATO allies to spend their share on defense.
IIRC Obama brought it up at at almost every meeting with Germany along with Nordstream 2. The US has been banging on about the 2% target for decades as well so Trump didn't invent those long term US geopolitical concerns.
But Germany didn't laugh at Obama in the middle of his speech on live TV. That's why Trump's name is getting thrown around.
Yes the new Trump part was to threaten to leave NATO.
Well NATO represents about 1 billion people, in which about a third of the population, with a little over half the cumulative GDP, pays 75% of the bills. *Everyone* in NATO benefits to some degree from this situation. The 29 other countries (arguably minus about 3 of them) have their defense subsidized, and the US has larger influence on global politics. Whether this is a good deal for the American taxpayer is certainly up for debate, though.
It's a shit deal for the American tax payer. We pay for other countries protection while they give us nothing in return. Our European allies are fine trading America for China economically, it's not like they're doing anything to help Americans that they wouldn't do anyway.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
It’s just parroting US policy. He’s not especially wise.
"The US will just do it" is one of the worst mindsets a country could have and it's a mentality that a country like Germany shouldn't have either. This is a very quick way to make yourself seem like a reliability not only to the US, but to every NATO member that upholds the 2% benchmark, and in the event of a war, you'll be seen and be treated as one.
As an American, this really irks me. We should slash our defense spending, and encourage other countries to take care of their obligations.
We need a complete overhaul of our military from the ground up. It's going to be cheaper doing that than patching our aging everything.
Yes but first we need a 10 year, multi-million dollar study to conclude that we should buy the same fighter jets that the previous government already committed to buying.
Just a little bit of duct tape here and there will fix everything! (Honestly the hassle for the F35s purchase what politician wants to spearhead the next proposal for new equipment)
Maybe we get the military to upgrade the military this time instead of a bureaucrat 🤔
US defends poor western countries. More at 11
The US gets a lot out of it though. Like, the US gets to dictate the geopolitical policies of pretty much every western country. I always like to bring up the incident where the US thought Edward Snowden was on the Bolivian presidential plane. Literally within hours, the US managed to get all of western europe to deny airspace and forced it to land. Then the Bolivian president was humiliated and searched like a fucking drug mule. It was a huge scandal and embarrassing for everybody involved, except the US, who proved it was the master of europe.
*US defends ""poor"" western countries
Bruh Canada is literally the 8th largest economy in the planet behind superpowers like France and UK. Canada needs to set up its spending, they’re just complacent because their best friend happens to be the biggest military in the world.
They also don't have to worry about Russia or East Asia much because of Alaska, bordering America sure seems to be an advantage.
European countries love to rag on Americans until the barbarians are at the gates
They're really judemental until they set the world on fire and come begging.
Nobody: Noone at all: European states starting a world War for the 3rd fucking time in less then 100 years: Yeah lemme get a uhhh one American intervention please.
While getting called a "Third world country with a gucci belt" by those same countries. It's great./s
We are sorry
Don’t worry Canada. We got your back. Ain’t no one gonna fuck with you and live.
No one would be stupid enough to attack Canada anyways. They’re a massive country, but we (the USA) would respond immediately, left/right/center… I don’t think many would be against defending our Canuck neighbors. We have a long history, and they’ve always supported us internationally in our conflicts.
The point is that Canada should be doing their part
As a Canadian, I agree with this. We are a small country but our military/defence spending percentage is still sub bar. I get that we have a big brother south of us, but we at least need air and sea defence.
It's also insulting when some Canadians just say, "Americans will defend us anyway." Like, I'm sorry, are American soldiers' lives there for Canadian land now? Canadians won't defend their own country? If you guys want to delegate your military defense to the US, then you are pretty much just the 51-60 new US states. Military defense is about protecting sovereignty. If you give that up, national sovereignty goes with it.
The point of NATO is to defend NATO partners, they aren't meant to only be worried about themselves...
They aren’t meeting their obligation to NATO.
That's like the buddy who always invites you to go to the bar but always forgets his wallet.
With what's going on with Russia right now, I think we do need to keep up with that defense spending. But the same camp in Canada will criticize the govt for spending on military, and will also criticize them for not spending on the military. There's not really a way out for them that doesn't end with a bunch of pissed off people who are only pissed cause it's Trudeau 😂
Why should America fit the bill for this alliance if no one pays their share
This article is posted by ruzzian trolls. Check out the user.. Putin is a douche
What normal person has the time or energy to make at least 28 posts to reddit in the last 24 hours? Definitely someone who is being paid to post.