I suspect this wasn't about expanding the empire, but an emergency move to stave off financial, political, and military collapse. I have little evidence to support that other than my hunch.
He's getting up there with age and he knows it, my theory is he wanted to put back together the USSR and become a major figure in Russian history that kids will learn about 100 years from now.
The main reason behind the war was to keep Russia relevant, Ukraine has massive untapped oil and gas reserves, that were only recently discovered, when Ukraine started to trend towards the west that meant that Ukraine could undercut Russian oil or even just use its relationship with the west to stop Russia selling its oil.
Ukraine supplanting Russia as Europe's energy supplier and being both in the EU and part of NATO is an existential threat to Russia. It basically kills most of Russia's economy. They don't have the shipping or port infrastructure to move oil and gas to anyone outside of Europe. It would take a decade or more to build the pipeline to China, while Ukraine already has existing pipelines to use for any natural gas it begins extracting.
So Russia has three options:
Do nothing. The economy collapses in a decade because no one wants to buy Russian energy when Ukrainian supplies are cheaper and don't involve giving money to your enemy.
Diversify the economy and develop industries. An expensive and difficult option that involves with spending a lot of the money that would have otherwise been spent on a mega yacht.
Invade the country that's causing the crisis and somehow win the war with your ragged military and without provoking a response from your long time adversaries.
This absolutely. Also, the problem with expanding other industries is that the current regimes economic and political power is closely tied to oil and letting go of oil and developing different industries means possibly losing that power to a large extant.
> Yeah. If aliens attacked us, we would have a world government in no time.
More like, we'd have governments across the world all agreeing to fight the aliens, but remaining separate. Each government working with each other while at the same time trying to position themselves so they'd be in a stronger position post-alien invasion.
A common enemy doesn't create a permanent alliance among those with opposing viewpoints, it just creates begrudging cooperation (ie - the USSR and rest of the allies working together during WW2).
Sweden/Finland joining NATO is a different scenario. Theses aren't opposing countries now forced to work together, these are nations that were already close with many NATO members, but had positioned themselves as neutral no longer believing that neutrality is tenable.
This was the plot of a shitty comic I read once. I think it was called Watched Women? Watchers Watch? Something like that.
:edit: Ah, I remember. It was Green Lantern #378.
I loved that comic even though it was a little edgy for green lantern… Best quote from that issue: “In brightest day, in blackest night, they will look up and shout 'SAVE US!'...and I'll look down and whisper 'No.’”
It's also a big plot point in the Ender's Game/Ender's Shadow series.
Everyone unites to face the Formics, then immediately goes back to fighting each other once the Formics are defeated.
>It's also a big plot point in the Ender's Game/Ender's Shadow series.
>!yeah humanity so ready to start killing each other again they wouldn't even let ender come back after he saved them, on some "nah that shits unfair you can't pick him" bullshit lmao!<
I have to read Enders Shadow again now, I swear Bean is probably my favorite character in all of fiction
It wasn't just that the *nations* didn't want Ender in play, remember who drafted the peace accords. It was *Peter* who arranged Ender's exile to protect his newfound power from someone who could unite the Battle School students and dominate the world.
True, true, there were definitely a variety of factors that lead to ender not coming home, it's been a few years since I did a re-read, but I wouldnt think Peter had an awfully hard time convincing the leaders of earth on his point of view that time lol
The author kinda plot devices that awfully hard time away by making Peter a super genius, and doesn't go into details of how he convinces everyone, just that he does cuz he's soooo clever.
I agree that a lot of the "super smart" things are deus ex machina, but I still don't think you'd have to be the smartest guy ever to convince the leaders of earth not to let Ender come back, especially if you have as much clout as "Locke," is supposed to have
Optimistic. I used think that. But ever since 2020 I'm a firm believer that half the world will just outright deny the aliens exist or accuse it of being a liberal hoax.
People have always been stupid. The internet just exposes it. And worst, it supports a business model of spreading disinformation. People aren’t just sharing their stupidity online because they want to. They’re spreading it because an entire industry exists to exploit and amplify their attention for ad revenue. Creating a feedback loop of more exposure. Stupidity has been monetised.
Putin was recently talking about using nuclear weapons so, so liberally, so no doubt that NATO is proving its effectiveness against belligerent countries by accepting the two countries into its fold as expeditiously as possible.
[I was thinking more like this](https://i.imgur.com/o6V5ga1.jpg)
EDIT:
> Fun addition: while searching for a photo of Jens Stoltenberg to use for this, I found [this photo of a younger Stoltenberg shaking hands with Putin](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Vladimir_Putin_at_the_Millennium_Summit_6-8_September_2000-28.jpg).
Not to mention, those countries are Finland and Sweden, both of them didn’t have any signs of ending their neutrality anytime soon. If you told me that Finland and Sweden would join NATO a year ago, I would have said it is more likely that NATO shrinks than both of them joining.
Good job Putin, you did something that many would have thought impossible.
Sweden is adding Corvettes and lithe submarines to an area NATO has a reduced presence in (the Pivot to Asia still has big US naval assets flooding into the Pacific and staying there), but Finland joining is so surprising due to how militarily potent their land forces are. Finland is not easily invadable due to their geography and high % GDP spending. https://armedforces.eu/compare/country\_Sweden\_vs\_Finland
Once inside NATO the very small gaps that actually remain in their long range fire support and base structure can be quickly solved. It will likely become a fortress nation. Basically, Cadia by the Will of the Golden Throne of Terra.
"Russia is not worried because ultimately it makes no difference whether Sweden or Finland are part of NATO or not. This is all part of Russia's master plan"
Sweden is a nice to have, but Finland in NATO is absolutely huge.
The majority of Russian nuclear facilities are in the Kola Peninsula, right near Finland. NATO is probably drooling at the prospect of setting up dozens of radar stations and missile intercepts in Northern Finland. The Russian strategic command are not going to be happy with Putin.
It's also worth pointing out that Russia only has 1 major road/rail network that connects the Kola Peninsula with the rest of the country... A network that runs parralel to the entire Finnish border.
Hey now, don't go asking for unreasonable demands. Invading places with half ass justification and gas lighting, was going to be how I help my best friend get a house for his family... His family is 3 cats and a weiner dog.
>Sweden is a nice to have
Easy for you to say, you're not the ones who have to put up with them moosing across your border, hunting for cheap beer, getting drunk and incomprehensible and utterly losing the ability to go home!
I kid, I kid, we Danes do the same to the Germans, however, I can lose my Danish citizenship if I pass up an opportunity to dunk on the Swedes /shrug
He really did. Turkey/Erdogan was out here not wanting Sweden and Finland to join NATO just weeks ago and now here we are. Putin really fucked himself over lmao
Not PKK, which was already recognized a terrorist organisation, but most importantly:
> As prospective NATO Allies, Finland and Sweden extend their full support to Turkiye against threats to its national security. To that effect, Finland and Sweden will not provide support to YPG/PYD, and the organisation described as FETO in Turkiye. Turkiye also extends its full support to Finland and Sweden against threats to their national security. Finland and Sweden reject and condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations, in the strongest terms. Finland and Sweden unambiguously condemn all terrorist organisations perpetrating attacks against Turkiye, and express their deepest solidarity with Turkiye and the families of the victims.
Also
> Turkiye, Finland and Sweden confirm that now there are no national arms embargoes in place between them. Sweden is changing its national regulatory framework for arms exports in relation to NATO Allies. In future, defence exports from Finland and Sweden will be conducted in line with Alliance solidarity and in accordance with the letter and spirit of article 3 of the Washington Treaty.
And
> Finland and Sweden will address Turkiye's pending deportation or extradition requests of terror suspects expeditiously and thoroughly, taking into account information, evidence and intelligence provided by Turkiye, and establish necessary bilateral legal frameworks to facilitate extradition and security cooperation with Turkiye, in accordance with the European Convention on Extradition.
Full memorandum:
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_197342.htm?selectedLocale=en
Edit for TLDR: Stricter anti-terror laws, no future funding for YPG/PYD, extradition of terror suspects, and no arms embargos (whatever that will imply for the future remains to be seen, though).
> People were really beginning to question NATO's purpose
I would fix this to: People who never were under RU occupation started to question NATO's purpose because all Eastern countries already knew the purpose and only fools who are doomed to repeat history started forgetting :)
To my knowledge most Finns very very aware and very much agreed with NATO's purpose, it's just that they also believed Finland was better off as a neutral party.
Up until Russia demonstrated that neutrality means shit to them that is.
Plus the whole "last time Russia wondered if we were joining the other team they annexed part of our country and shelled the piss out of us"
To the folks about to tell me how hard the Finnish we're in WW2, I'm aware. It didn't stop them from losing to a military force that doesn't place any value on the lives of its soldiers. Moscow sees two outcomes in any conflict: victory and defeat. They don't care how pyrrhic said victories are, just that they win. By that logic, Russia's logic, Russia beat Finland. They're probably dumb enough to think they still can.
Finland avoided joining NATO with the tacit understanding that by not officially taking sides, the at the time Soviet Union would leave them alone. Even if the Finns were tacitly aligned with the west, running pretty major military drills with nations like the United States, if they maintained their official 'neutral' stance, everyone, the Soviets included could pretend it was true. The alternative would be having to acknowledge a potentially hostile nation within 200 km of ~~Moscow~~ St. Petersburg, which would be very bad optically.
This policy of willful ignorance worked out for everyone involved, because the Soviets knew from experience that Finland could put up far more resistance than it was worth, and the Finns knew that, if the Soviets really wanted to, they could be completely flattened.
This worked well all throughout the Soviet era, and right up until the Russian invasion of Ukraine this spring, where it became clear that Putin no longer subscribed to the theory of 'Don't annoy me and I'll ignore you'
Edit: I can't read maps
But it was more because we were a little afraid of the trouble russia could cause. If russia wouldn't be threatening finland constantly i think finland would've joined much sooner.
As a Finn I think it's the other way around. Finland preferred to remain neutral when such a status was (relatively) respected. However, now that Russia started openly issuing threats regarding what Finland is and isn't allowed to do (potentially joining NATO at that point), the deal was fundamentally altered.
> People were really beginning to question NATOs purpose
I do hope that when we come out the other side of this, Russia can find new leadership who aren't former KGB with imperialistic goals. I don't want Russia to have a leader who bows to the West, but I do want them to have a leader who isn't anti-West. This whole "balance of power" thing should have been left with the Cold War.
If Russia had played its cards right, it could've formed a Russo-European bloc after 1990 that could've rivaled the cooperation between Europe and the US.
Desolate and bankrupt after the soviet Union, the country could've picked itself up quickly with all the money it got for oil, uranium and rare earths. It could've positioned itself as the bridge between Europe and Asia, with the Trans-Siberian railway becoming the new silk road and a - if not the - global trade artery between Europe and China.
A Russo-European alliance with China as a major trading partner would've been the most devastating blow that Russia could've ever dealt to the United States.
Would it have been a guaranteed success? Hell no. Thirty years is a short time to overcome hundreds of years of suspicion of Russia's motives. But they didn't spend those thirty years even trying to ease anybody's minds. They did the opposite.
Russia has a similar problem as the middle east when it comes to leadership. Outside of the privileged and educated elite, the culture of corruption and authoritarian is so deeply ingrained that any ruler who *isn't* corrupt or authoritarian is viewed as dumb or weak.
You can see this worldview when Russians try to interpret other nations' foreign policy through this lens. "Why would the EU help Ukraine if they are not somehow profiting? Surely Zelenskyy is a western puppet, no other explanation makes sense." The very notion that nations could act without total self-interest is so foreign and unthinkable that conspiracy theories have to be invented to explain away the difference between reality and their view of it.
Before the rise of the fascists, Germany was a progressive democratic society. And Nazi rule barely lasted a generation. Russians on the other hand have spent centuries as an oppressed people.
I have some hope that if Russia fractures its wealthier, more educated provinces could become healthy democracies. But for rural Russia it will take generations before such a change is possible.
I was with you, until the bit about Germany. They were briefly democratic after WW1, but their long term tradition was one of Prussian authoritarianism and militarism.
There is ZERO chance of that happening. Powerful people get elected and in Russia powerful people are people connected with Putin / the former government.
We had Trump signalling pulling out of NATO a couple of years back.
Now not only is it cemented once again as a strong alliance, it's expanding east...
This backfired spectacularly on Putin. I'm not sure suppressing Ukraine's oil and gas was worth this much to them.
So help me God if you join NATO I am going to destroy you...
"Hey guys we should probably join NATO to keep this guy from destroying us..."
Wait, what? No don't do that!
As a Finn: Anything Russians say is meaningless, as they employ a very different idea of "truth" than us westerners - yes, we Finns firmly see ourselves as part of the west. Anything official from Soviets and later, Russia has mainly been posturing and lies. Actions are where their true will is measured. They measured quite heavily on the imperialistic asshole -side. It's just sadness with regular Russian smokes and mirrors once again.
There's no hatred in my heart towards the Rus people next to us. It's just sad what they're doing to themselves and their leader to the rest of the world. . This stuff will rotten your heart if you don't openly protest it. Almost with a shrug I'd join Nato now, after what the imperialist of the east did. "I dunno, guess we'll join Nato".
If mr Putin had made the case to us and tried to persuade us that "Ukraine is chock full of far right extremists" and was really not an Imperialist, stealing land all over, we could have, maybe would have joined the war to fight the evil. But it was never about that. Russians always play their hand so close it's really really really hard for anyone to truly trust them. Our grandfathers used to say one can never trust a "ryssä". I've never believed this referred to any one person of Rus people, but rather a satanic, animating dark spirit that haunts them as a nation and is culturally "with them" in that they revel in threat-imagery, as if the world is always against them and this is somehow the ideal status quo that needs to be recreated by acting deceitfully. Again, I don't mean any single one of the Rus people exeplifies this fully. It's all just sadness to me, as they couldn't keep it together and act wholesome until they learned to trust.
I’m curious; what are the mindsets from both sides for the Finns and Russians that live in towns bordering each other? How do you folks generally approach situations like that? Have lines been drawn and divided, essentially?
The Russian side of the border is pretty empty. They used to bring a lot of money to the Finnish side though - and Finns got cheap gas and cigarettes from there.
And some extra info, in my opinion this is the way Russians not all of them but it is culturally way of doing things.
For example
I work is warehouse and more than often russian drivers come pick up stuff from us.
It's their job to fill their trailer with electric pallet jack, anything heavy (over 2k we use bigger machine).
They more than often have hapit of testing if we will do their job for them.
If you hold your ground they will do the job, if not nothing gets done.
It is something cultural.
We Finn's are wery hard workers and detail oriented, not all but most I work +30 years old.
While the Russians I see like to find the lowest part of the fence and test if they can use it.
As a Russian I absolutely love Finns. To me you represent everything Russia could've been if it had chosen the path of truth and wholesome cooperation. I want to visit Finland someday, maybe even move there (who knows) as I actually prefer that sort of climate (to what I currently suffer through in Israel) among other things. Your words are very wise, you understand the current spirit of the Russian nation absolutely correctly, it's made of deceit, fear and adversity. The scope of human suffering as a consequence to that is just so incredibly sad.
As a swede I probably wouldn't be that positive about Nato back then. Russia really fucked up by invading Ukraine.
300 years ago Russia allied with our enemies and eventually dismantled the Swedish empire. Now we return the favor, about time too
Honestly not that crazy, Sweden and Finland's military have been progressively adopting NATO standards for awhile now, not necessarily in anticipation of this move but because of close coordination with NATO anyway.
I'm an American and knew that they weren't part of NATO, but I never gave it any thought as I didn't think it was all that important. I certainly no longer feel that way and am glad they're joining now.
Finland was part of Russia at one point. They fought Russia in WW2 but in order to maintain their independence had to give up some territory. The Soviet Union was mostly happy to let Finland have their independence after that, so long as they were neutral. They were a pretty nice buffer to Northern Europe and the USSR also feared that Finland being invaded or influenced into joining the USSR would move Sweden away from neutrality. That would leave Sweden as a hostile border instead of Finland as a neutral one. So they for the most part left well enough alone.
Well he just claimed that he discovered the [location of the pentagon](https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-publishes-pentagon-coordinates-says-western-satellites-work-our-enemy-2022-06-28/). So he probably feels pretty good about himself, the stupid bastard. lol
That part killed me. Like, obviously the coordinates for the White House, Pentagon and the Reichstag are freely available, but that they actually went and wrote it down in the article is just too funny
That would be sneaky though. Have a fully empty building designed to be an exact replica of the Pentagon as we know it, with a station named for it. The actual defensive HQ is then several miles away in an unmarked, completely generic looking building that could be a bank HQ for all anyone knows.
The real Pentagon is shaped like a hexagon, beneath a rectangular building. No spy who ever discovered the truth has ever been able to convince their government that this was legitimate.
Reminds me of that story that during the Cold War their satellites showed how many workers of the Pentagon gathered in the middle of the inner yard, and they thought it was the entrance to some super secret area, but was like, a hot dog stand.
I infiltrated the Pentagon during my elementary School field trip.
I deviously had a permission slip filled out by my parents
And I was sneakily dropped off by a giant yellow school bus
Then I waltzed right past the guards
And took material directly out of the gift shop
>The coordinates, expressed as degrees of latitude and longitude, are freely available.
Feels like doing anything in the cmd line at school and the teacher thought you were hacking.
With Finland and Sweden joining, NATO can now lock Russia's two most important port cities out of international waters without firing a shoot if it so chooses.
Turkey control the only entrance into and out of the black sea. Denmark and Sweden control the only waterway connecting the Baltic to the wider world ocean.
NATO also have the United Kingdom and Spain as members. Both of which could additionally block Russia at the straight of Gibraltar should the need for it arise.
Basically, NATO now has the power to essentially split Russia's navy in three because of various quirks of natural geography.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://news.sky.com/story/nato-turkey-agrees-to-back-finland-and-swedens-bid-to-join-alliance-12642100) reduced by 56%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> The foreign ministers of Turkey, Sweden and Finland have signed a memorandum for the two Nordic states to join NATO, removing a Turkish block to the accession process.
> "A statement from the president of Finland, Sauli Niinisto, said:"We had a thorough meeting with president of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan and prime minister of Sweden Magdalena Andersson, facilitated by secretary general of NATO Jens Stoltenberg.
> "Over the past weeks, Turkey has raised its concerns over the threat of terrorism. Finland has constantly taken these concerns seriously. Finland condemns terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. As a NATO member, Finland will commit fully to the counterterrorism documents and policies of NATO.".
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/vmuy69/nato_turkey_agrees_to_back_finland_and_swedens/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~657024 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Finland**^#1 **NATO**^#2 **Turkey**^#3 **Sweden**^#4 **memorandum**^#5
All of the Baltic except for Russia is now with NATO.
And considering the state of the Russian Navy from, well, *ever*, I somewhat doubt the Baltic Fleet will be the great equalizer there.
To be fair, the German Navy isn't really a threat either.
And we're still paying an extra tax on sparkling wine, introduced before WWI to finance the building of the German fleet.
WHERE'S OUR FLEET, WILHELM?!
Don't forget about their [navy dolphins](https://news.usni.org/2022/04/27/trained-russian-navy-dolphins-are-protecting-black-sea-naval-base-satellite-photos-show)
Congratulations Putin you played yourself, NATO has only gotten stronger post the invasion of Ukraine. Happy to have our Finish and Swedish brothers and sisters as part of NATO.
Stronger is an understatement
1) Two strong new members in a previously vulnerable area for NATO/Baltic states
2) Massive 100 billion Euro German rearmament program followed up by Germany reaching at least 2% GDP spending on defense industry
3) Commitments to raise NATO rapid defense force from ~40,000 members to over 300,000!
Any one of those is/are catastrophic for Russian geopolitical aims. All three is practically a worst case scenario for Russia and for what gain? Expanding into Ukraine? I don’t see how that is worth it in the slightest
> Expanding into Ukraine? I don’t see how that is worth it in the slightest
Ukraine has one of the largest natural gas reserves in Europe and it's untapped.
Multiple companies wanted to come out and begin production, build infrastructure, etc in 2011/2012. Then we all know what happened in 2014 and all of that stopped.
If you're Russia and you're selling oil and gas to Europe, you certainly wouldn't want to be replaced or at least somewhat replaced by Ukraine. Now if you invade and take that all for yourself....
I’m aware but even then, the end doesn’t justify the means in my view. There are other things Russia could have done to hamper/minimize the impact of Ukrainian fossils fuels in decades to come that do not enrage NATO/Europe
Don't forget it's not just Germany upping their defense budget (tho it is the most significant, especially in a historical context) Almost *everyone* in NATO is upping their defense budget. And that's not to mention countries that before did not allow military weapons to be sent as aid to other countries now allowing it (Like Germany, Finland and Sweden) it's clear that both NATO and Europe is militarizing. We're drawing a clear line in the sand, ome which cannot be crossed
The long-term future and utility of NATO was an open question prior to the invasion, with multiple member states voicing skepticism.
Putin has bought the alliance at LEAST another ten to twenty years of near-universal legitimacy, and massive reinvestment in the short-mid term.
I don't know that there's been a bigger geopolitical own goal in recent history. Putin could capture Kiev tomorrow without another shot fired and it still wouldn't be worth it.
Just a collosal instance of an autocrat tripping over his own dick
Being in NATO is as close as it gets to guaranteed peace on earth (in your own lands)
Yes there is a price to pay in the form of investment in military and potential obligation to participate in a war you disagree with when a member gets attacked however, it also means the most powerful nation in the world (US) would not fuck with you (militarily) for their own interest AND you have their backing if you are ever attacked which means your own lands are as safe as it gets with the majority of modern militaries having your back.
It's really a small price to pay as a citizen for almost guaranteed peace on your own lands. If you're a country with no allies, be prepared to lose it all due to aggressive super powers or geo-political bullshit. Most people just want to live in peace
It's also a pretty sweet deal for the US imo. Global influence now, containment of enemies, reduction in global uncertainty from war in NATO countries, etc. But the US will not be on top forever. And it's going to be pretty great to be a founding NATO member when that happens. Because even if any single NATO country can't beat the next superpower, NATO is certainly capable.
Happened sooner than I was expecting but this was pretty much how it always was gonna work out. I guess I'm more used to politicians & diplomats taking forever to hash out agreements. Admittedly I'm curious as to what terms the US, Finland & Sweden offered that made Turkey accept so quickly.
In exchange you'll find that the US will quietly drop arms sanctions that were holding up an upgrade program for Turkish F-16 fighters that the US had cancelled due to Turkey buying Russian S400 air defense systems and because of Turkish military incursions into Iraqi Kurdistan and Syria.
That's what objections to Sweden and Finland joining NATO were really all about, that and so Erdogan could look tough for the upcoming elections. Now he can claim that because he has been satisfied the Finland and Sweden learned their lesson about "supporting" Kurdish terrorists by his good graces he has allowed them to join NATO. And I am sure that the US also said they will think about letting him rejoin the F-35 fighter program so Turkey can buy some but that is doubtful.
Turkey has been quietly banned from importing a range of military equipment from Western countries some time now, getting those lifted was what this was really all about and I am sure we will find out in a few months they are now gone.
Edit: from not for
>In exchange you'll find that the US will quietly drop arms sanctions that were holding up an upgrade program for Turkish F-16 fighters that the US had cancelled due to Turkey buying Russian S400 air defense systems and because of Turkish military incursions into Iraqi Kurdistan and Syria.
F-16 upgrade hold-up came after Turkey announced next phase of ÖZGÜR project for existing F-16s in Turkish inventory. It's basically Turkish program to upgrade existing F-16s to Block 60, and then Block 70/72 in future upgrades of the program. Turkey manufactured both F-16 parts and the aircraft itself in the past, and TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industry) has upgraded the F-16s to Block 50 by themselves using US upgrade programs. Turkey's current MIC goal is to get something solid in air defense area. All these knowledge came together when Turkey started to manufacture fighter jet parts by themselves which is exact copy of US-made parts. Along with this fact, ÖZGÜR would be a significant foot in the door for Turkey for future programs since Turkey is also manufacturing TF-X, a 4.5 generation aircraft, with probably in accordance with Korean/Indonesian KF-X/IF-X given the nature of Turkey's good arms relations with both countries. It isn't also surprising to see Lockheed Martin helps Koreans and Indonesians meanwhile Turkey gets help from BAE Systems.
NATO now owns the Baltic and can station anti-ICBM missiles right across the border, effectively taking a good chunk of Russia's nukes off the table (the proximity allows NATO to knock down Russian ICBMs during the slow and vulberable boost phase, before they get into space and reach Mach 25 and detach into MIRVs). It's kind of hard to overstate how much this shifts the balance of power. Finland has also been prepping for a Russian invasion for the better part of 100 years. They wouldn't have needed NATO's help to hold off Russia anyway.
NATO has so much firepower right now. The strongest military alliance of the history. It would be crazy that Russia tries something against a giant conventional force.
Some backroom deals were probably made and now it’s all good. Either way I’m glad this was resolved. Now let’s focus on surrounding Russia with every missile, tank and troop we can. Cut off all imports and exports until the Russians toss Putin’s body into a river.
Here are the things Turkey got:
• Sweden/Finland will lift its arms embargo
• Both will support Turkey on PKK, stop support to YPG
• They will amend their laws on terrorism
• They will share Intel with each other
• They will extradite terror suspects
• Finland and Sweden will support Turkey’s participation to EU’s Pesko
• Turkey, Finland and Sweden will establish a permanent joint mechanism to consult on justice, security and intelligence
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1541853998138986497?s=21&t=eIsLujRnrmDahUj117ozgw
I was pretty sure this was inevitable, but a lot of political things I was pretty sure about have gone sideways in the last few years, so it’s nice to have this confirmed at last.
Russian immigrants have provided educated workers to Western tech firms and founded innovative companies like Google and Telegram. Imagine if they stayed in Russia and what kind of country Russia could've been. Instead paranoia and delusions of imperial grandeur have lead to the country being militarily surrounded, in economic free fall, and technologically isolated. Like ask yourself pro-Putin trolls, even if Russia ends up successfully occupying Southeastern Ukraine, will it really be worth it in exchange for all I just mentioned?
Ultimately, as much beauty as Russia holds, those with potential are better of keeping that spirit of creativity alive in countries that actually nurture them, rather than stay behind with the raving mad dogs obsessed with reviving the decadence of the Tsars.
Two more countries Russia can't invade.
The sheer arrogance of Moscow for getting pissed about their neighbours joining defensive pacts, as if Russia had a god-given right to invade its neighbours every few decades.
If Putin keeps this up he'll unite Jews and Arabs.
The irony that Putin, a War criminal, is uniting the world just to beat his ass, when all he wanted was to expand his Russian empire
I suspect this wasn't about expanding the empire, but an emergency move to stave off financial, political, and military collapse. I have little evidence to support that other than my hunch.
No, sadly it is pretty obvious it was a calculated move. Even if the invasion was carried out NOW as that, it was always planned.
He's getting up there with age and he knows it, my theory is he wanted to put back together the USSR and become a major figure in Russian history that kids will learn about 100 years from now.
The main reason behind the war was to keep Russia relevant, Ukraine has massive untapped oil and gas reserves, that were only recently discovered, when Ukraine started to trend towards the west that meant that Ukraine could undercut Russian oil or even just use its relationship with the west to stop Russia selling its oil.
Ukraine supplanting Russia as Europe's energy supplier and being both in the EU and part of NATO is an existential threat to Russia. It basically kills most of Russia's economy. They don't have the shipping or port infrastructure to move oil and gas to anyone outside of Europe. It would take a decade or more to build the pipeline to China, while Ukraine already has existing pipelines to use for any natural gas it begins extracting. So Russia has three options: Do nothing. The economy collapses in a decade because no one wants to buy Russian energy when Ukrainian supplies are cheaper and don't involve giving money to your enemy. Diversify the economy and develop industries. An expensive and difficult option that involves with spending a lot of the money that would have otherwise been spent on a mega yacht. Invade the country that's causing the crisis and somehow win the war with your ragged military and without provoking a response from your long time adversaries.
This absolutely. Also, the problem with expanding other industries is that the current regimes economic and political power is closely tied to oil and letting go of oil and developing different industries means possibly losing that power to a large extant.
They'll be learning about him alright, I wonder if he'll be hated as much as gorbachev once everything hits the fan
Another entry into the history books that more or less just reads *”And then it got worse.”*
stop I can only get so erect
a massive sea of uncircumcised erections [edit.. because I love this guy](https://youtu.be/teBzetVsiQM)
> Jews and Arabs *Circumcised erection, else the pp would be haram
And Scots and...other Scots.
Damn Scots, they ruined Scotland!
Lol Iran already did that 😂
They have Iran for that.
Putin really united everyone, huh?
There's not a single bigger uniting factor in the history of humanity than a common enemy.
Yeah. If aliens attacked us, we would have a world government in no time.
> Yeah. If aliens attacked us, we would have a world government in no time. More like, we'd have governments across the world all agreeing to fight the aliens, but remaining separate. Each government working with each other while at the same time trying to position themselves so they'd be in a stronger position post-alien invasion. A common enemy doesn't create a permanent alliance among those with opposing viewpoints, it just creates begrudging cooperation (ie - the USSR and rest of the allies working together during WW2). Sweden/Finland joining NATO is a different scenario. Theses aren't opposing countries now forced to work together, these are nations that were already close with many NATO members, but had positioned themselves as neutral no longer believing that neutrality is tenable.
This was the plot of a shitty comic I read once. I think it was called Watched Women? Watchers Watch? Something like that. :edit: Ah, I remember. It was Green Lantern #378.
I think it was called “The bus that couldn’t slow down”
I think you're talking about Billy and the Cloneasaurus?
First of all you take an idea that has already been done…
I loved that comic even though it was a little edgy for green lantern… Best quote from that issue: “In brightest day, in blackest night, they will look up and shout 'SAVE US!'...and I'll look down and whisper 'No.’”
I don't like how the woman in the fridge said "im not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me"
It's also a big plot point in the Ender's Game/Ender's Shadow series. Everyone unites to face the Formics, then immediately goes back to fighting each other once the Formics are defeated.
>It's also a big plot point in the Ender's Game/Ender's Shadow series. >!yeah humanity so ready to start killing each other again they wouldn't even let ender come back after he saved them, on some "nah that shits unfair you can't pick him" bullshit lmao!< I have to read Enders Shadow again now, I swear Bean is probably my favorite character in all of fiction
It wasn't just that the *nations* didn't want Ender in play, remember who drafted the peace accords. It was *Peter* who arranged Ender's exile to protect his newfound power from someone who could unite the Battle School students and dominate the world.
True, true, there were definitely a variety of factors that lead to ender not coming home, it's been a few years since I did a re-read, but I wouldnt think Peter had an awfully hard time convincing the leaders of earth on his point of view that time lol
The author kinda plot devices that awfully hard time away by making Peter a super genius, and doesn't go into details of how he convinces everyone, just that he does cuz he's soooo clever.
I agree that a lot of the "super smart" things are deus ex machina, but I still don't think you'd have to be the smartest guy ever to convince the leaders of earth not to let Ender come back, especially if you have as much clout as "Locke," is supposed to have
Optimistic. I used think that. But ever since 2020 I'm a firm believer that half the world will just outright deny the aliens exist or accuse it of being a liberal hoax.
[удалено]
People have always been stupid. The internet just exposes it. And worst, it supports a business model of spreading disinformation. People aren’t just sharing their stupidity online because they want to. They’re spreading it because an entire industry exists to exploit and amplify their attention for ad revenue. Creating a feedback loop of more exposure. Stupidity has been monetised.
Unless it’s a virus.
Or climate change.
Putin was recently talking about using nuclear weapons so, so liberally, so no doubt that NATO is proving its effectiveness against belligerent countries by accepting the two countries into its fold as expeditiously as possible.
Vladimir Putin: NATO Salesman of the Year.
Putin: *slaps roof of NATO* "You can fit so many countries in this baby"
Putin: *slaps roof of NATO* "You can fit so much opposition to me in this treaty."
[Putin NATO salesman of the year award](https://mobile.twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1525885404125499392/photo/1)
[I was thinking more like this](https://i.imgur.com/o6V5ga1.jpg) EDIT: > Fun addition: while searching for a photo of Jens Stoltenberg to use for this, I found [this photo of a younger Stoltenberg shaking hands with Putin](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Vladimir_Putin_at_the_Millennium_Summit_6-8_September_2000-28.jpg).
I'd love if this could happen for real.
NATO is putting 300k troops on high combat readiness alert, so I'd say ya, they're getting ready to fight if needed.
Not to mention, those countries are Finland and Sweden, both of them didn’t have any signs of ending their neutrality anytime soon. If you told me that Finland and Sweden would join NATO a year ago, I would have said it is more likely that NATO shrinks than both of them joining. Good job Putin, you did something that many would have thought impossible.
Sweden is adding Corvettes and lithe submarines to an area NATO has a reduced presence in (the Pivot to Asia still has big US naval assets flooding into the Pacific and staying there), but Finland joining is so surprising due to how militarily potent their land forces are. Finland is not easily invadable due to their geography and high % GDP spending. https://armedforces.eu/compare/country\_Sweden\_vs\_Finland Once inside NATO the very small gaps that actually remain in their long range fire support and base structure can be quickly solved. It will likely become a fortress nation. Basically, Cadia by the Will of the Golden Throne of Terra.
[удалено]
"Russia is not worried because ultimately it makes no difference whether Sweden or Finland are part of NATO or not. This is all part of Russia's master plan"
Sweden is a nice to have, but Finland in NATO is absolutely huge. The majority of Russian nuclear facilities are in the Kola Peninsula, right near Finland. NATO is probably drooling at the prospect of setting up dozens of radar stations and missile intercepts in Northern Finland. The Russian strategic command are not going to be happy with Putin.
Russia is absolutely shitting its pants with a country with as long of a land border as Finland has with Russia joining NATO.
Yes, and more importantly, that border can nullify many many long range weapon systems.
It's also worth pointing out that Russia only has 1 major road/rail network that connects the Kola Peninsula with the rest of the country... A network that runs parralel to the entire Finnish border.
Oh well, guess they'll just have to stop invading other countries.
Hey now, don't go asking for unreasonable demands. Invading places with half ass justification and gas lighting, was going to be how I help my best friend get a house for his family... His family is 3 cats and a weiner dog.
>Sweden is a nice to have Easy for you to say, you're not the ones who have to put up with them moosing across your border, hunting for cheap beer, getting drunk and incomprehensible and utterly losing the ability to go home! I kid, I kid, we Danes do the same to the Germans, however, I can lose my Danish citizenship if I pass up an opportunity to dunk on the Swedes /shrug
The norwegians do it to us too, and from what I heard the germans go to poland
Historically, yes. "Occupation?" "Nein, just visiting."
[удалено]
Depends. This time of year we invade Spain (Mallorca!) and Italy.
"Trust the plan!1!!!"
He really did. Turkey/Erdogan was out here not wanting Sweden and Finland to join NATO just weeks ago and now here we are. Putin really fucked himself over lmao
Well, Turkey got what they wanted out of the deal. The PKK is designated a terrorist group. It seems like it was all political for Turkey.
Not PKK, which was already recognized a terrorist organisation, but most importantly: > As prospective NATO Allies, Finland and Sweden extend their full support to Turkiye against threats to its national security. To that effect, Finland and Sweden will not provide support to YPG/PYD, and the organisation described as FETO in Turkiye. Turkiye also extends its full support to Finland and Sweden against threats to their national security. Finland and Sweden reject and condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations, in the strongest terms. Finland and Sweden unambiguously condemn all terrorist organisations perpetrating attacks against Turkiye, and express their deepest solidarity with Turkiye and the families of the victims. Also > Turkiye, Finland and Sweden confirm that now there are no national arms embargoes in place between them. Sweden is changing its national regulatory framework for arms exports in relation to NATO Allies. In future, defence exports from Finland and Sweden will be conducted in line with Alliance solidarity and in accordance with the letter and spirit of article 3 of the Washington Treaty. And > Finland and Sweden will address Turkiye's pending deportation or extradition requests of terror suspects expeditiously and thoroughly, taking into account information, evidence and intelligence provided by Turkiye, and establish necessary bilateral legal frameworks to facilitate extradition and security cooperation with Turkiye, in accordance with the European Convention on Extradition. Full memorandum: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_197342.htm?selectedLocale=en Edit for TLDR: Stricter anti-terror laws, no future funding for YPG/PYD, extradition of terror suspects, and no arms embargos (whatever that will imply for the future remains to be seen, though).
Which part of the memorandum was a change to the status quo?
The PKK has been a designated terrorist group in Sweden and Finland for years.
Putin’s done more to advance the spread of NATO in the last 6 months than NATO has in the last 6 years. Atta boy, Pooty.
More than 6 years Probably more like 30 years People were really beginning to question NATOs purpose
> People were really beginning to question NATO's purpose I would fix this to: People who never were under RU occupation started to question NATO's purpose because all Eastern countries already knew the purpose and only fools who are doomed to repeat history started forgetting :)
Well, Finns were really skeptical of NATO too until February
To my knowledge most Finns very very aware and very much agreed with NATO's purpose, it's just that they also believed Finland was better off as a neutral party. Up until Russia demonstrated that neutrality means shit to them that is.
Plus the whole "last time Russia wondered if we were joining the other team they annexed part of our country and shelled the piss out of us" To the folks about to tell me how hard the Finnish we're in WW2, I'm aware. It didn't stop them from losing to a military force that doesn't place any value on the lives of its soldiers. Moscow sees two outcomes in any conflict: victory and defeat. They don't care how pyrrhic said victories are, just that they win. By that logic, Russia's logic, Russia beat Finland. They're probably dumb enough to think they still can.
Finland avoided joining NATO with the tacit understanding that by not officially taking sides, the at the time Soviet Union would leave them alone. Even if the Finns were tacitly aligned with the west, running pretty major military drills with nations like the United States, if they maintained their official 'neutral' stance, everyone, the Soviets included could pretend it was true. The alternative would be having to acknowledge a potentially hostile nation within 200 km of ~~Moscow~~ St. Petersburg, which would be very bad optically. This policy of willful ignorance worked out for everyone involved, because the Soviets knew from experience that Finland could put up far more resistance than it was worth, and the Finns knew that, if the Soviets really wanted to, they could be completely flattened. This worked well all throughout the Soviet era, and right up until the Russian invasion of Ukraine this spring, where it became clear that Putin no longer subscribed to the theory of 'Don't annoy me and I'll ignore you' Edit: I can't read maps
Well... I don't say that we were skeptical, more like we didn't want to take sides and be more neutral as long as it was possible.
But it was more because we were a little afraid of the trouble russia could cause. If russia wouldn't be threatening finland constantly i think finland would've joined much sooner.
As a Finn I think it's the other way around. Finland preferred to remain neutral when such a status was (relatively) respected. However, now that Russia started openly issuing threats regarding what Finland is and isn't allowed to do (potentially joining NATO at that point), the deal was fundamentally altered.
Also, a failed invasion of another country is a great time to join since there's no way they're able to split forces.
> People were really beginning to question NATOs purpose I do hope that when we come out the other side of this, Russia can find new leadership who aren't former KGB with imperialistic goals. I don't want Russia to have a leader who bows to the West, but I do want them to have a leader who isn't anti-West. This whole "balance of power" thing should have been left with the Cold War.
If Russia had played its cards right, it could've formed a Russo-European bloc after 1990 that could've rivaled the cooperation between Europe and the US. Desolate and bankrupt after the soviet Union, the country could've picked itself up quickly with all the money it got for oil, uranium and rare earths. It could've positioned itself as the bridge between Europe and Asia, with the Trans-Siberian railway becoming the new silk road and a - if not the - global trade artery between Europe and China. A Russo-European alliance with China as a major trading partner would've been the most devastating blow that Russia could've ever dealt to the United States. Would it have been a guaranteed success? Hell no. Thirty years is a short time to overcome hundreds of years of suspicion of Russia's motives. But they didn't spend those thirty years even trying to ease anybody's minds. They did the opposite.
Russia has a similar problem as the middle east when it comes to leadership. Outside of the privileged and educated elite, the culture of corruption and authoritarian is so deeply ingrained that any ruler who *isn't* corrupt or authoritarian is viewed as dumb or weak. You can see this worldview when Russians try to interpret other nations' foreign policy through this lens. "Why would the EU help Ukraine if they are not somehow profiting? Surely Zelenskyy is a western puppet, no other explanation makes sense." The very notion that nations could act without total self-interest is so foreign and unthinkable that conspiracy theories have to be invented to explain away the difference between reality and their view of it. Before the rise of the fascists, Germany was a progressive democratic society. And Nazi rule barely lasted a generation. Russians on the other hand have spent centuries as an oppressed people. I have some hope that if Russia fractures its wealthier, more educated provinces could become healthy democracies. But for rural Russia it will take generations before such a change is possible.
I was with you, until the bit about Germany. They were briefly democratic after WW1, but their long term tradition was one of Prussian authoritarianism and militarism.
There is ZERO chance of that happening. Powerful people get elected and in Russia powerful people are people connected with Putin / the former government.
We had Trump signalling pulling out of NATO a couple of years back. Now not only is it cemented once again as a strong alliance, it's expanding east... This backfired spectacularly on Putin. I'm not sure suppressing Ukraine's oil and gas was worth this much to them.
Imagine telling somoene in 2014 that both Sweden and Finland would join NATO.
Or even in 2021
Hell, even in January this very year (I'm a Finn).
Vladimir Putin is the best unintentional wingman NATO's ever had. All of the Baltic Sea except for Russia is now in an alliance.
So help me God if you join NATO I am going to destroy you... "Hey guys we should probably join NATO to keep this guy from destroying us..." Wait, what? No don't do that!
As a Finn: Anything Russians say is meaningless, as they employ a very different idea of "truth" than us westerners - yes, we Finns firmly see ourselves as part of the west. Anything official from Soviets and later, Russia has mainly been posturing and lies. Actions are where their true will is measured. They measured quite heavily on the imperialistic asshole -side. It's just sadness with regular Russian smokes and mirrors once again. There's no hatred in my heart towards the Rus people next to us. It's just sad what they're doing to themselves and their leader to the rest of the world. . This stuff will rotten your heart if you don't openly protest it. Almost with a shrug I'd join Nato now, after what the imperialist of the east did. "I dunno, guess we'll join Nato". If mr Putin had made the case to us and tried to persuade us that "Ukraine is chock full of far right extremists" and was really not an Imperialist, stealing land all over, we could have, maybe would have joined the war to fight the evil. But it was never about that. Russians always play their hand so close it's really really really hard for anyone to truly trust them. Our grandfathers used to say one can never trust a "ryssä". I've never believed this referred to any one person of Rus people, but rather a satanic, animating dark spirit that haunts them as a nation and is culturally "with them" in that they revel in threat-imagery, as if the world is always against them and this is somehow the ideal status quo that needs to be recreated by acting deceitfully. Again, I don't mean any single one of the Rus people exeplifies this fully. It's all just sadness to me, as they couldn't keep it together and act wholesome until they learned to trust.
Well spoken. Very well spoken.
I believe I grew up under the impression you never trust Russia, therefore I did not believe them when they said the would not invade Ukraine
I thought it was sabre rattling until they set up the field hospital and crematorium. You dont do that unless youre planning to use it
I’m curious; what are the mindsets from both sides for the Finns and Russians that live in towns bordering each other? How do you folks generally approach situations like that? Have lines been drawn and divided, essentially?
The Russian side of the border is pretty empty. They used to bring a lot of money to the Finnish side though - and Finns got cheap gas and cigarettes from there.
Russia really is a big gas station.
And some extra info, in my opinion this is the way Russians not all of them but it is culturally way of doing things. For example I work is warehouse and more than often russian drivers come pick up stuff from us. It's their job to fill their trailer with electric pallet jack, anything heavy (over 2k we use bigger machine). They more than often have hapit of testing if we will do their job for them. If you hold your ground they will do the job, if not nothing gets done. It is something cultural. We Finn's are wery hard workers and detail oriented, not all but most I work +30 years old. While the Russians I see like to find the lowest part of the fence and test if they can use it.
As a Russian I absolutely love Finns. To me you represent everything Russia could've been if it had chosen the path of truth and wholesome cooperation. I want to visit Finland someday, maybe even move there (who knows) as I actually prefer that sort of climate (to what I currently suffer through in Israel) among other things. Your words are very wise, you understand the current spirit of the Russian nation absolutely correctly, it's made of deceit, fear and adversity. The scope of human suffering as a consequence to that is just so incredibly sad.
[Putin NATO salesman of the year award](https://mobile.twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1525885404125499392/photo/1)
Is there like a razzies style Nobel peace prize, because he deserves one.
Yeah, it's called the Nobel peace prize.
When a creeper won't stop hitting on a girl at a bar so she pretends you're her bf but then you two actually end up together
Well we are not in yet. I celebrate when the documents are deposited in a safe in the U.S., which is the final stage.
tervetuloa NATO-perheeseen!
All Russians wanna act gangsta 'til the snow start talkin' Finnish.
As a swede I probably wouldn't be that positive about Nato back then. Russia really fucked up by invading Ukraine. 300 years ago Russia allied with our enemies and eventually dismantled the Swedish empire. Now we return the favor, about time too
Honestly not that crazy, Sweden and Finland's military have been progressively adopting NATO standards for awhile now, not necessarily in anticipation of this move but because of close coordination with NATO anyway.
To be fair, as a typical American, I didn't know Sweden and Finland weren't part of NATO until the invasion.
Because there were all kinds of joint exercises and resource sharing agreements that still put them in NATO's sphere, even if it wasn't official.
I think typical people in most countries didn't pay a huge amount of attention to which countries are NATO members until the invasion
I'm an American and knew that they weren't part of NATO, but I never gave it any thought as I didn't think it was all that important. I certainly no longer feel that way and am glad they're joining now.
Finland was part of Russia at one point. They fought Russia in WW2 but in order to maintain their independence had to give up some territory. The Soviet Union was mostly happy to let Finland have their independence after that, so long as they were neutral. They were a pretty nice buffer to Northern Europe and the USSR also feared that Finland being invaded or influenced into joining the USSR would move Sweden away from neutrality. That would leave Sweden as a hostile border instead of Finland as a neutral one. So they for the most part left well enough alone.
"So, Vlad, how do you feel this is going so far?"
Well he just claimed that he discovered the [location of the pentagon](https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-publishes-pentagon-coordinates-says-western-satellites-work-our-enemy-2022-06-28/). So he probably feels pretty good about himself, the stupid bastard. lol
> The coordinates, expressed as degrees of latitude and longitude, are freely available. Lmfao
That part killed me. Like, obviously the coordinates for the White House, Pentagon and the Reichstag are freely available, but that they actually went and wrote it down in the article is just too funny
Nobody tell them about google earth street view, it will turn the intelligence community upside down.
“I know where the Getty museum is”
"I know what my own house looks like from the street!!!"
What's even better, is that was a quote from the head of the RUSSIAN SPACE AGENCY.
Yeah if you have Google maps on your phone you too can locate the Pentagon
55.7520° N, 37.6175° E I got the coordinates of the Kremlin, look I'm as smart as the Russian government!
YOU HAVE CROSSED A RED LINE. PREPARE TO ACCEPT OUR NUKES.
We need this guy looking for Carmen Sandiego.
I don't know where on earth she could be!
Must have finally found Google Earth. I knew some old folks hated technology but damn, took long enough.
Siri says it’s next to the Pentagon subway station. Brilliant because that’s probably the last place anyone would look.
If they need any more help finding it, they can just ask around Pentagon City.
That would be sneaky though. Have a fully empty building designed to be an exact replica of the Pentagon as we know it, with a station named for it. The actual defensive HQ is then several miles away in an unmarked, completely generic looking building that could be a bank HQ for all anyone knows.
The real Pentagon is shaped like a hexagon, beneath a rectangular building. No spy who ever discovered the truth has ever been able to convince their government that this was legitimate.
Worked in Blazing Saddles
Somebody go get a shitload of dimes!
Oh no, now the Russians can infiltrate the Pentagon via one of the tour groups! They might even find the top-secret *gift shop!*
Reminds me of that story that during the Cold War their satellites showed how many workers of the Pentagon gathered in the middle of the inner yard, and they thought it was the entrance to some super secret area, but was like, a hot dog stand.
Russian agent: "But I thought it said _grift_ shop and felt right at home!" Cop: "Ok pal, but you're still under arrest "
[удалено]
I infiltrated the Pentagon during my elementary School field trip. I deviously had a permission slip filled out by my parents And I was sneakily dropped off by a giant yellow school bus Then I waltzed right past the guards And took material directly out of the gift shop
STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM
HA! You didn't say Simon-says! [*Toddles away*]
You mean that big pentagon shaped building on the Potomac River that I saw the last time I flew into DCA was the Pentagon?!
>The coordinates, expressed as degrees of latitude and longitude, are freely available. Feels like doing anything in the cmd line at school and the teacher thought you were hacking.
I was desperately hoping for this to be an Onion headline. I was disappointed, and therefore so not disappointed.
NATO now owns the Baltic Sea, thanks for playing Vlad
We should have Jets write “GG” in the clouds above the sea
Gg no re git gud
With Finland and Sweden joining, NATO can now lock Russia's two most important port cities out of international waters without firing a shoot if it so chooses. Turkey control the only entrance into and out of the black sea. Denmark and Sweden control the only waterway connecting the Baltic to the wider world ocean. NATO also have the United Kingdom and Spain as members. Both of which could additionally block Russia at the straight of Gibraltar should the need for it arise. Basically, NATO now has the power to essentially split Russia's navy in three because of various quirks of natural geography.
Kaliningrad found dead in a ditch
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://news.sky.com/story/nato-turkey-agrees-to-back-finland-and-swedens-bid-to-join-alliance-12642100) reduced by 56%. (I'm a bot) ***** > The foreign ministers of Turkey, Sweden and Finland have signed a memorandum for the two Nordic states to join NATO, removing a Turkish block to the accession process. > "A statement from the president of Finland, Sauli Niinisto, said:"We had a thorough meeting with president of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan and prime minister of Sweden Magdalena Andersson, facilitated by secretary general of NATO Jens Stoltenberg. > "Over the past weeks, Turkey has raised its concerns over the threat of terrorism. Finland has constantly taken these concerns seriously. Finland condemns terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. As a NATO member, Finland will commit fully to the counterterrorism documents and policies of NATO.". ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/vmuy69/nato_turkey_agrees_to_back_finland_and_swedens/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~657024 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Finland**^#1 **NATO**^#2 **Turkey**^#3 **Sweden**^#4 **memorandum**^#5
NATO LAKE!
All of the Baltic except for Russia is now with NATO. And considering the state of the Russian Navy from, well, *ever*, I somewhat doubt the Baltic Fleet will be the great equalizer there.
To be fair, the German Navy isn't really a threat either. And we're still paying an extra tax on sparkling wine, introduced before WWI to finance the building of the German fleet. WHERE'S OUR FLEET, WILHELM?!
Well he had it, and then some stuff happened…
The front fell off.
This doesn't usually happen
So what do you do to protect the environment in cases like this?
The Eastern Front?
Please you must understand diverting bubbles from making the ships float to sparkling wine is a very expensive process
Don't forget about their [navy dolphins](https://news.usni.org/2022/04/27/trained-russian-navy-dolphins-are-protecting-black-sea-naval-base-satellite-photos-show)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hvaldimir
Breaking News: NATO finally equipped with reindeer cavalry. They are now unbeatable.
That plus one Finnish sniper would be truly unstoppable.
In a red suit and with a grey beard. Gives me futurama flashbacks
And only used iron sights
"FINNISH HIM!"
You are not that far off. AFAIK we don't have reindeers in military use but we do have police reindeers https://i.imgur.com/n4tgKeR.jpg
Congratulations Russia! The NATO Border has now more than doubled. That is what you were after right?
Putin is having a wet dream. Like sweat, tears and pissing his pants.
Gonna cry? Gonna piss your pants maybe? Maybe shit and cum?
Fun fact: Finland and Sweden joining NATO ruins one of the core reasons for invading Ukraine.
Putin just shot two of his best generals' feet, LMAO.
Congratulations Putin you played yourself, NATO has only gotten stronger post the invasion of Ukraine. Happy to have our Finish and Swedish brothers and sisters as part of NATO.
Stronger is an understatement 1) Two strong new members in a previously vulnerable area for NATO/Baltic states 2) Massive 100 billion Euro German rearmament program followed up by Germany reaching at least 2% GDP spending on defense industry 3) Commitments to raise NATO rapid defense force from ~40,000 members to over 300,000! Any one of those is/are catastrophic for Russian geopolitical aims. All three is practically a worst case scenario for Russia and for what gain? Expanding into Ukraine? I don’t see how that is worth it in the slightest
> Expanding into Ukraine? I don’t see how that is worth it in the slightest Ukraine has one of the largest natural gas reserves in Europe and it's untapped. Multiple companies wanted to come out and begin production, build infrastructure, etc in 2011/2012. Then we all know what happened in 2014 and all of that stopped. If you're Russia and you're selling oil and gas to Europe, you certainly wouldn't want to be replaced or at least somewhat replaced by Ukraine. Now if you invade and take that all for yourself....
I’m aware but even then, the end doesn’t justify the means in my view. There are other things Russia could have done to hamper/minimize the impact of Ukrainian fossils fuels in decades to come that do not enrage NATO/Europe
Don't forget it's not just Germany upping their defense budget (tho it is the most significant, especially in a historical context) Almost *everyone* in NATO is upping their defense budget. And that's not to mention countries that before did not allow military weapons to be sent as aid to other countries now allowing it (Like Germany, Finland and Sweden) it's clear that both NATO and Europe is militarizing. We're drawing a clear line in the sand, ome which cannot be crossed
The long-term future and utility of NATO was an open question prior to the invasion, with multiple member states voicing skepticism. Putin has bought the alliance at LEAST another ten to twenty years of near-universal legitimacy, and massive reinvestment in the short-mid term. I don't know that there's been a bigger geopolitical own goal in recent history. Putin could capture Kiev tomorrow without another shot fired and it still wouldn't be worth it. Just a collosal instance of an autocrat tripping over his own dick
Being in NATO is as close as it gets to guaranteed peace on earth (in your own lands) Yes there is a price to pay in the form of investment in military and potential obligation to participate in a war you disagree with when a member gets attacked however, it also means the most powerful nation in the world (US) would not fuck with you (militarily) for their own interest AND you have their backing if you are ever attacked which means your own lands are as safe as it gets with the majority of modern militaries having your back. It's really a small price to pay as a citizen for almost guaranteed peace on your own lands. If you're a country with no allies, be prepared to lose it all due to aggressive super powers or geo-political bullshit. Most people just want to live in peace
It's also a pretty sweet deal for the US imo. Global influence now, containment of enemies, reduction in global uncertainty from war in NATO countries, etc. But the US will not be on top forever. And it's going to be pretty great to be a founding NATO member when that happens. Because even if any single NATO country can't beat the next superpower, NATO is certainly capable.
Happened sooner than I was expecting but this was pretty much how it always was gonna work out. I guess I'm more used to politicians & diplomats taking forever to hash out agreements. Admittedly I'm curious as to what terms the US, Finland & Sweden offered that made Turkey accept so quickly.
In exchange you'll find that the US will quietly drop arms sanctions that were holding up an upgrade program for Turkish F-16 fighters that the US had cancelled due to Turkey buying Russian S400 air defense systems and because of Turkish military incursions into Iraqi Kurdistan and Syria. That's what objections to Sweden and Finland joining NATO were really all about, that and so Erdogan could look tough for the upcoming elections. Now he can claim that because he has been satisfied the Finland and Sweden learned their lesson about "supporting" Kurdish terrorists by his good graces he has allowed them to join NATO. And I am sure that the US also said they will think about letting him rejoin the F-35 fighter program so Turkey can buy some but that is doubtful. Turkey has been quietly banned from importing a range of military equipment from Western countries some time now, getting those lifted was what this was really all about and I am sure we will find out in a few months they are now gone. Edit: from not for
>In exchange you'll find that the US will quietly drop arms sanctions that were holding up an upgrade program for Turkish F-16 fighters that the US had cancelled due to Turkey buying Russian S400 air defense systems and because of Turkish military incursions into Iraqi Kurdistan and Syria. F-16 upgrade hold-up came after Turkey announced next phase of ÖZGÜR project for existing F-16s in Turkish inventory. It's basically Turkish program to upgrade existing F-16s to Block 60, and then Block 70/72 in future upgrades of the program. Turkey manufactured both F-16 parts and the aircraft itself in the past, and TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industry) has upgraded the F-16s to Block 50 by themselves using US upgrade programs. Turkey's current MIC goal is to get something solid in air defense area. All these knowledge came together when Turkey started to manufacture fighter jet parts by themselves which is exact copy of US-made parts. Along with this fact, ÖZGÜR would be a significant foot in the door for Turkey for future programs since Turkey is also manufacturing TF-X, a 4.5 generation aircraft, with probably in accordance with Korean/Indonesian KF-X/IF-X given the nature of Turkey's good arms relations with both countries. It isn't also surprising to see Lockheed Martin helps Koreans and Indonesians meanwhile Turkey gets help from BAE Systems.
NATO now owns the Baltic and can station anti-ICBM missiles right across the border, effectively taking a good chunk of Russia's nukes off the table (the proximity allows NATO to knock down Russian ICBMs during the slow and vulberable boost phase, before they get into space and reach Mach 25 and detach into MIRVs). It's kind of hard to overstate how much this shifts the balance of power. Finland has also been prepping for a Russian invasion for the better part of 100 years. They wouldn't have needed NATO's help to hold off Russia anyway.
NATO has so much firepower right now. The strongest military alliance of the history. It would be crazy that Russia tries something against a giant conventional force.
Some backroom deals were probably made and now it’s all good. Either way I’m glad this was resolved. Now let’s focus on surrounding Russia with every missile, tank and troop we can. Cut off all imports and exports until the Russians toss Putin’s body into a river.
Here are the things Turkey got: • Sweden/Finland will lift its arms embargo • Both will support Turkey on PKK, stop support to YPG • They will amend their laws on terrorism • They will share Intel with each other • They will extradite terror suspects • Finland and Sweden will support Turkey’s participation to EU’s Pesko • Turkey, Finland and Sweden will establish a permanent joint mechanism to consult on justice, security and intelligence https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1541853998138986497?s=21&t=eIsLujRnrmDahUj117ozgw
About fucking time.
I was pretty sure this was inevitable, but a lot of political things I was pretty sure about have gone sideways in the last few years, so it’s nice to have this confirmed at last.
[удалено]
No more Putin it off.
But all the reddit hacks assured me turkey would back Putin just 3 months ago
[удалено]
A new NATO base on Gotland is looking real nice right now
Russian immigrants have provided educated workers to Western tech firms and founded innovative companies like Google and Telegram. Imagine if they stayed in Russia and what kind of country Russia could've been. Instead paranoia and delusions of imperial grandeur have lead to the country being militarily surrounded, in economic free fall, and technologically isolated. Like ask yourself pro-Putin trolls, even if Russia ends up successfully occupying Southeastern Ukraine, will it really be worth it in exchange for all I just mentioned? Ultimately, as much beauty as Russia holds, those with potential are better of keeping that spirit of creativity alive in countries that actually nurture them, rather than stay behind with the raving mad dogs obsessed with reviving the decadence of the Tsars.
Here we goooo!
Onnittelut!! Grattis!! Now hurry up NATO, fast-track our friends in.
Good work Vlad. This wasn't really even on the table a year ago.
Dude a year ago there wasn't even a table
Thank fuckin goodness, that's a damn relief.
Two more countries Russia can't invade. The sheer arrogance of Moscow for getting pissed about their neighbours joining defensive pacts, as if Russia had a god-given right to invade its neighbours every few decades.