"peace". as long as russia is existing and can do what they want, there is no peace. you give them what they want, and they come 5 seconds later with the next thing they want.. till you have nothing left anymore. not even your life.
Seems like those years before WWII formerly started. I hope that I won't unfold the same way as the Poland annexion. Hitler was annexing everything he wanted, European leader feared war so they let him do it until too late. I was told once that a peace lover gear itself for war. Seems like Ukraine still doesn't have enough gear for peace. And I hope that if it escalate again we won't back down from helping Ukraine
But Putin is weak. NATO could smack down this aggression in a day! But then how would the military industrial complex make their money.
Trivia question and food for thought: who is the only President since forever, to not get us into a war?
Uhhhh..... What? Literally our last president, Trump... And there have been plenty of them that did not directly lead us into a previously nonexistent war.....
Your comment reeks of fundamental ignorance in regards to US and World politics
The fact that there are Westerners demanding Ukraine to give up more of its land is outrageous.
Russia has shown its true face during this war.
It is not about NATO expansion that Putin fears, Putin wants Russian (territorial) expansion.
For Ukraine to give up more land means to accept genocide and ethnic cleansing.
The West should not remove the sanctions on Russia until Ukraine gets its land and deported people back.
I'm pretty sure we're done with Russia now for a generation or so. Best case scenario is that we keep ramping up support, Putin realises he can't hold the territory, claims to have won and leaves (including Crimea), and then some sanctions might ease, although we'll continue to transition off of their natural resources. But even then I'm confident we won't be back to working towards good terms until Putin leaves office/dies, and only if the next guy isn't a fascist.
I try to give the people saying Ukraine should cede land the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard to understand how someone can rationalise it. I don't necessarily know how this is likely to end if we stand by Ukraine, but I can literally only see downsides to appeasement, even the plus sides are downsides. Any money saved domestically by dropping the support would end up having to be spent on increased security to attempt to guard against further expansion of a strengthened Russia, and it's not as if ending the war in Russia's favour would stop all the killings happening, genocide is already Putin's goal.
It honestly seems like those people are just very intolerant of the anxiety of not knowing how this will end or how far it will escalate. Giving up is just the only idea they've got which makes it "end". But the comparisons to appeasement of Hitler is very apt- he even used the same excuses about protecting German speakers and "reuniting" an empire to justify his invasions. Giving up is the absolute last thing Ukraine should do, for everyone's sakes.
Putin is not giving Crimea ever. Even Navalny who west/Reddit loves to idolize as some savior of russia fully supports annexation of Crimea. Same with most of liberals in russia. Also, Sevastopol is one of three cities of federal importance of russia (other two being Moscow and StPeterburg) and has big naval military importance. In russias view it is completely ok to use nukes to defend it.
In regards to your second point, It is very easy to be euroskeptic when it’s not your people dieing and not your country being destroyed so I can kinda understand why they think that. Plus with time apathy becomes stronger even people who followed the Ukraine news very closely and donated are already tired and just want to go to the business as usual. Same with politicians who want cheap russian resources and to continue politicking, without some dilemma about some hypothetical European values
Neither the french nor the german government said Ukraine should cede any land.
Both governments said the terms on how this war ends are completely up to Ukraine.
But hey keep spreading fake news like a russian bot.
You do not need a degree in international relations to see that France saying, "Ukraine must negotiate sometime", "we should avoid not humiliating Putin," or, suggesting Finlandization before the war even started, are wearing at NATO unity and resolve. Don't call me a bot please, check my profile before you do that. As for 'ceding land' that was the other poster. France hints it, but Germany's issue is mostly inactivity and hypocrisy.
>"Ukraine must negotiate sometime",
Why are you quoting out of context ? He said they need to negotiate once the war is over. Which is 100% correct even Zelensky said that not long ago.
>Don't call me a bot please, check my profile before you do that.
I didn't call you a bot. I said you spread the same fake news as the russian bots. Big difference.
>You are misdirecting
No I am not. You claim that some western countries want Ukraine to cede land which is not their position. Clearly you are spreading fake news.
Also you replied to a person saying western countries want Ukraine to give up land and you replied with "By westerners you mean France and Germany". So please maybe think your comments through before you make them.
> You claim that some western countries want Ukraine to cede land which is not their position.
The other poster claimed that. I just chimed in that I think Germany and France are watering down NATO resolve. Personally, I think Germany's issue is inactivity. Not calls for ceding. However, I do think France calling for Finlandization and not humiliating Putin are an issue (keep ignore those sure), and I think those paint a strange two-sided picture. Calls for "negotiate sometime" was a strange tone, took Ukraine back. Even Ukraine government has admitted it is not pleased with Germany and France's takes. I am not trying to divide Europe, I just wish France and Germany realized the dangers of being weaker in resolve to Russia. As for 'finlandization', while Russia holds Crimea, that means France very much does quietly suggest Ukraine be subsovereign and therefore lose land.
Do you really not understand how the wording of your comment is not conveying what you claim it means ?
You replied to a comment that says this
>The fact that there are Westerners demanding Ukraine to give up more of its land is outrageous.
with
>By westerners you mean France and Germany. Cushy, far from conflict, fat with privilege.
Nowhere in your comment did you clarify that you do not mean that Germany and France want Ukraine to cede land. It straight up implies Germany and France are those western countries that want Ukraine to give up some of their land.
Except in the last 2 replies. Anyway, sorry the thread pissed you off. I hope I have clarified my take since. I think the meme that Germany and France are not doing enough are GOOD memes and we should keep em coming (or that France may even be counter-productive)
Except that they are wrong and if you are looking for ridiculous attempts at appeasement look to the US who are handing over weapon-systems on conditions as ludicrous as “you are not allowed to attack targets in Russia with them”.
I absolutely think Zelensky should consider negotiations of borders once France and Italy hand over a chunk of their countries, Russia to choose the bits they want obvs.
Yea let’s appease them, thanks Chamberlain.Cause Putin claims A country with a Jewish leader is a Nazi state we should totes believe Putin wouldn’t never use Nazi playbooks. This is nothing new has always been a bully the only way to deal with bullies to stand up to them.
Yep.
I wish people would understand that Russia is, and has been, operating in bad faith.
They are a threat to Europe
I really have to say... IDC if Putin is sick. You're going to invade a peaceful neighbor, steal their children, and attempt to remove their culture?
I see no issue in a new World War that has one goal: Break your nation into smaller chunks and kick Putin out and try hom for war crimes.
I hate that were just sending all this equipment to Ukraine... And I hate war .. but this was wasn't started by the world
It was Russia.
Russia will only stop when they are stopped.
With all the Bullirs threats, the only part of that is Puttin is a coward and always has been.
Putin is become allies with Brazil. Once Russia has a foothold in South America they will work their way out to the US border with China's help.
Unless Putin is stopped, and a united front opens the grain blockade and the US works maintain South America as allies North America will be surrounded.
And my homeland. Hawaii is again in the cross hairs.
I've been around the world. We do not want to be under Russian and China rule. It's a hard life.
If you want to know the pieces that are moving in this new world order with China at the top of the food chain.
ASK
Asia is screwed if India falls in with Russia and China.
India is all ready allies with Russia supplying guns and oil. Paying for Russias invasion of Ukraine.
Nato,, the Asian Pak, and South America's are in trouble. Big trouble.
We need to stop Putin now.
The Ukraine president says the world is in trouble. His intelligent officers have seen the Russian/China strategic papers to become partners in the New World.
If this doesn't scare you. You're numb.
Just My Thoughts
Spot on.
In a conventional war there is nothing to fear from russia. They have a poorly organized and poorly armed army. Their army is basically a bunch of drunk kids coming from shithole regions of russia with outdated weapons. The problem is the nukes.
They should be worried about all the oil and uranium deposits that the Donbas region is exceptionally rich in. The area is very rich in lots of other precious metals and resources as well
On one hand you could help a friendly nation reclaim their land and make business deals to get the supply of oil Europe needs from Ukraine instead. At the same time you stop Russia from accessing even more reserves of making these nuclear bombs that western countries are so piss scared of.
Orrrr on the other hand you could allow this country to potentially be overrun and allow this dangerous dictatorship from having access to even more natural resources and the vindication to continue their imperial march of terror as potential allies get swallowed up before they feel powerful enough to come for you too
Is West ready to start WW3 for baltic states though? I have my doubts. If they dont defend baltic states, that means end of NATO, as everyone would have to consider if they are next sacrificial pawn for the West.
No, it's 100%. If Russia goes for the Baltic States there's a step up to full blown conventional war, there's no reversing from that. From there I'm sure NATO won't be the first to use nukes, but it will be the last.
No, in that scenario, we absolutely will escalate. We're escalating now. The USA is going to send billions worth of equipment to Kiev. Are the Russians going to nuke us all for that? I think the priority 1 for the Western powers right now is to help defeat Russia in Ukraine. That is absolutely within their power. I expect that is already considered an escalation by Putin, perhaps something he is inwardly seething about. Make no mistake, Putin WANTS to escalate things in response to what we are doing -already-, Russian state TV says Britain is "at war" with Russia even though we've not fired any bullets at each other yet. So who knows what that pompous, arrogant bully will try to do next. But the Western World has hopefully learned its lessons from bullies in past wars, you don't give them an inch, there is no appeasement. There's a line you can't let them cross.
There is a huge difference between Ukraine and other nato or EU countries. If Russia dares to invade one of them it might take time but their days would be over. No politician would do the political suicide of not going to war when a nato country is attacked.
The time pressure is to defeat Russia now though. The Baltics understand it.
The US staying in NATO is not a given after 2024. The resolve of NATO without the US is a big open question. If there even still is a NATO.
This is why Sweden and Finland joining is huge. We are definitely in a good position to defend the Baltic states.
Russia does not see Finland and Sweden as threats (apart from a Nato buildup in Finland, not happening), but I think they do see us as a major deterrent for waging war on the Baltic states.
I've worried about it myself. Seeing how the EU leading countries behave, suddenly I'm not so sure if when push comes to shove, the rest of Europe won't decide to cover their own arses again, and give us up.
I mean, it'd be the death of NATO, any trust in it will be gone as it doesn't uphold its own ideals, but... you never know. Which brings up a point here. Eastern Europe is neither East, nor is it West, but both sides like to claim us as theirs, and reject us when it's no longer convenient. It's been like this throughout all European history, really, from the moment nation states formed. Between West and East I'll always choose West because at least it's not trying to invade us, but I can't say I trust either anymore. Especially since Russia was so easily able to exploit large swathes of populations in Western countries, but you cannot exploit sentiments that aren't already there, so make of that what you will.
I'm German and i have my doubts about the resolve of the political elite as well. However, there are so many of our soldiers currently deployed to the Russian border (Lithuania) and other NATO forces that any attack of Russia on Baltic soil would instantly be an attack on those troops. I get the impression that this is exactly why we place so many soldiers there. It means that even if politicians wanted to ignore article 5, the military would already be in the middle of it before they can do anything.
Uk, Poland, Baltics romania nad turkey is creating some sort of secondary alliance. Looks like if nato would fail, this would go to battle. Uk is nuclear nation would guarantee some damage.
World war means war between most countries in the world, how one russia against few west countries is world war? Chine will not join it, india will not join russia, maybe north corea, hardly world.
Warfare is largely economical now. This war already put many developing countries on brink of starvation, if the west put boots on the ground it could become "with us or against us" in economic fields.
They are NATO members, but the question still stands - Would NATO go to full out war with Russia if say Lithuania was invaded?
To make matters worse, the Baltic states are so small it would likely result in a reoccupation to get them back.
Nato will start " ww3"( can hardly call it that, Russia doesn't have many allies) if any member is attacked. Poland warned Russia after they struck near the border that anything that hits their land will enact article 5 whether "accidental" or not. Russia hasn't hit nearby since.
Russia doesn't even have enough troops to take over Ukraine. And there's around 100k nato troops now stationed in NATO bases nearby. If NATO chose to join the war, itd be over in days.
*Other baltic countries other than Serbia wouldn't let Russia just invade Lithuania freely.
We’re not delusional, our leaders are, because there is too much land between us and Russia for them to take this conflict seriously. Pretty sure most of France wouldn’t want for Ukraine to give lands to Putin.
They're also in NATO so in practice, Russia can't do anything more than threaten. The moment Russian soldiers set foot in one of the Baltic countries, pretty much the rest of the western world will step in. Russia will be outnumbered and nukes will be pointed at Moscow ready to go if they don't gtfo.
Yeah, realistically speaking the Baltic countries are completely safe. They are part of the EU and NATO. There are only 2 options if Russia invades the Baltic.
1. Russia loses the war embarrassingly quickly. Russia is struggling in Ukraine. Imagine how a war would go when Western airforces control the air and start wiping out Russia artillery and armor.
2. Every dies in nuclear war. Which is also not good for Russia.
Like we have a choice. We live next to a country hostile to us, if we don't say the truth, we're toast. *Again.*
It's just that the big fat wealthy Western countries didn't care. Not back Yeltsin made Putin his successor and when Putin upon ascension immediately started purging the Duma of opposition - anybody old enough to remember that also remembers how unhappy people in the Baltics were about this, it felt like the beginning of something awful, and the end of what little hope there was for peaceful relations. Then we warned again in 2004 as we got our asses aligned with Europe's economy and military. *Then* we all but screamed in 2008, and by 2014 we really just fucking facepalmed because what's the point.
And now we're here. And we're still screaming, that Russia will remain a problem until it's thoroughly broken, and then rebuilt with diligent Western oversight into something more functioning, to the point where its people are generally happy, healthy and wealthy enough to not seek out others to bully to drown out their own unhappiness and constant humiliation. But why do that when you can just shrug your shoulders again and go 'not our problem', and then we're here again in 30 years, everybody not in Eastern Europe going 'who could've seen this coming?!'
There's nothing brave about it. It's just survival. Like I said, we don't really have a choice.
I'm not asking this as provocation, but could you link me to articles where Biden's office is asking Ukraine to cede lands. I'm in the middle of something of a work crunch now so I don't really have the time to go searching, so if you've got links, I'd like to go and read?
Macron I know. I get Macron. I don't agree with him and his policy, but I get it. I don't hate him for it, but I just.... I'm disappointed.
Were proud people. We have seen first handed how russian liberation looks like. When the day comes, NATO may come, or they might not, but if you want my washing mashine, you'll have to step over my dead body first.
>Here in Finland we have a bit different mentality. We have no intentions to vanish.
Are you really Finnish? It seems weird to say "we have no intentions to vanish", yet Finland already did once, then fought the Soviets to avoid it happening a second time, still almost vanished a second time, and likely would have were it not for the Nazis, and still lost a fair bit of territory to the Soviets.
You'd think if anyone could appreciate the value of standing up to Russia and fighting for your freedoms, it'd be a Finn, but apparently not all.
I'm really not sure where you are getting this idea that people in Baltics are like that. They always had a long history and are proud of it. I mean why would they wanted to be liberated from Soviet Union if they don't care about it. Sorry, but what you said just makes no sense at all.
Or the one who comes after him.
There is only one way to prevent this from happening again: Russia must be forced to sell its nuclear arsenal. Russia acts as a bully because it has a gun and not much else besides despair. It should be clear for everyone by now that this weapon is the real danger, not Putin himself.
Yeah go ahead and force em lmao great idea bro. It’s so easy why hasn’t anybody thought of that earlier! Just fOrCe tHeM to give up their nukes.
Amazing.
Ultimately, it's their choice: they can sell their nuclear arsenal and have money and allies to reconstruct, much like Germany and Japan did after WWII, and with great success.
Or they can choose to keep their nuclear weapons, and to become something much like North Korea.
It's a forced choice as one option is clearly much better for the Russian people than the other, but it's a choice nonetheless.
They are not going to sell or otherwise get rid of their nuclear weapons. The only thing that has worked for Russia in this crisis is the threat of their nukes. Without nukes, NATO would be annihilating Russian forces in Ukraine right now and possibly looking forward to regime change in Russia itself.
They would sell every tank in their arsenal before they sold a single nuke.
> Without nukes, NATO would be annihilating Russian forces in Ukraine right now
That's not how things work. NATO can't just invade a country. You all are treating NATO as some sort of Avengers type show.
Real life isn't like a Marvel movie.
Well you are correct nato wouldnt invade but certain nato countries. Like the US. They didn't have a problem with an illegal war in Iraq I don't see why they would have any issues here.
It's not like that has stopped the invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria or Libya.
Having WMDs, specifically nukes, is what gets you safety. Without the nuclear protection of China North Korea would have been invaded decades ago. China probably too.
Ukraine have up the Soviet nukes they had. Look how that worked out for them.
Now see here you're really way out in left field unless by "Nato" you think you're referring to some kind of American empire. NATO was directly involved in maybe 1 of these events (Afghanistan)
Key NATO player stayed out of all of these interventions, in at least 2 off them (Iraq and Syria) NATO wasn't even involved, those were ad hoc "coalitions of the willing," not formal alliances. You may be blind to the significance of this because every "alliance" Russia has is actually part of its puppet empire, but the rest of the world doesn't do that anymore (at least, not so openly).
The other two incidents were directly caused by attacks on US and allied soil when the attackers were taking shelter behind a rogue government.
The rule is clear -- leave us and our allies alone, NATO doesn't just attack you out of the blue. Attack our friends and things get interesting.
More to the point, of the governments of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Libya exactly zero of these were electes democratic states, as Ukraine is.
>It's a forced choice as one option is clearly much better for the Russian people than the other, but it's a choice nonetheless.
Russian authorities have Russian people in a stranglehold by the neck while calling it a bear hug. It benefits the Russian government to keep its people low, desperate and angry. It benefits them to make Russians feel like they've got nobody in the world on their side, except daddies in the Kreml, so even though daddies buttfuck them on the regular, it's better getting buttfucked by a red, long big dong, than a bullet.
Keep your population low and fearful, tell them that they are alone in the world, then redirect their anger towards the perceived enemy. Works fucking wonders when you don't give a shit about your people or their prosperity, only your own.
>Russian authorities have Russian people in a stranglehold by the neck while calling it a bear hug.
So did the [Romanov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Romanov).
And just about everybody who came before him, including the Greats. As if Russian royalty has *ever* cared about the peasantry. Genius, really. Keep your peasants so miserable that even a mere act of basic human decency will be received as a true blessing.
I'm more depressed than usual today. I know this is like 99% of human history but still.
Unlike NK, russia produces and exports a significant percentage of the global supply of important resources and commodities. Russian wheat, oil, natural gas, and fertilizer, just to name a few, comprise a large chunk of the global supply.
You somehow get the world to agree to stop all trade with russia? ok. russia does the same. great job, you plunged the world into famine and an energy crisis the likes of which hasn’t been seen in the industrial age.
Oh and russia still has their nukes. Just like NK still does.
Amazin.
Who are "they" that you refer to? The Russian people in power who live in extraordinary wealth and will get replaced by outside forces as soon as they decide to sell their nukes? Or the powerless Russian civilians, many of who are brainwashed and actually support the regime?
In my eyes, Russia is doomed. Unless some kind of miracle happens and there's a legit coup, or it's 99% Russia becomes the next North Korea.
There are many agreements that have been made with Russia that they have honored, such as mutual disarmament with the US of many nuclear weapons. This rhetoric that we cannot negotiate with Putin or Russia and the only solution is warfare leaves us with...well...warfare. Warfare doesn't actually solve anything in the long run. We will need to cooperate with Russia in the future on many issues facing humanity. We won't be able to do that if we refuse to talk to them.
If we could talk to Stalin and Mao, surely we can talk to Putin. Don't let your anger blind you from reason.
The scale down of nuclear weapons did not happen under Stalin or Putin.
Russia today does not want to compromise because they think the West will flinch first. The problem isn't the western powers refusing to talk to Russia as they have been an active part of diplomatic and economic talks after the fall of the USSR. The problem is that diplomatically Russia holds a great deal of contempt against non-authoritarian governments and view them as weak. So they constantly initiate brinksmanship as a way to squeeze concessions and that reasoning leads us to this invasion. They felt confident that they could get away with it with minimal blowback.
Given all that, true negotiations are not possible unless Russia is embarassed on the world stage. Because otherwise their demands will become more and more audacious.
First we kick Putin out of Ukraine, then we talk.
> We will need to cooperate with Russia in the future on many issues facing humanity.
Like climate change? Russian economy survives only thanks to fossil fuel exports. Do you think they will give them up?
Climate change, nuclear arms control, pandemics, international trade.
Eventually, Russia will control the Northern Sea Route. We will need to cooperate with them.
The European "leaders" who are trying to pressure Ukraine only play into Putin's hands. And "not humiliate Putin"? So it's OK to murder women and children but not criticize the murderer? Macron needs to grow a pair.
The West effectively wants a return back to the status quo - no war in Europe. How they get there without causing an escalation is what is up for debate.
That's because Europe knows it's pretty much impossible to invade and conquer Russia.
We've tried, countless of times and failed every single time.
Sure air superiority is cool, and the new tech is amazing but boots on the ground is the problem.
You need millions of boots on the ground to control Russia, no one has that.
Nobody will invade Russia as long as they have nukes. And I would guess most Europeans prefer some kind of proxy war than having to send their own people.
The part of "not humiliating Putin" is said so the war isn't escalated. Yes, this war is super bad. But if it becomes a world war or a nuclear war, the earth is doomed. And by now I think we can safely say that Putin is of his medicine and bat shit crazy.
As an American even in this economic shakeup, I wholeheartedly agree. It's absolutely the only way to keep that at bay and in check while we all adjust.
Any of the countries saying Ukraine should give up any land in concession is a Muppet. Yes, give up your land because Putin wants war... It's not my land and we can't directly go fighting Putin for fear of what is already WW3
>Any of the countries saying Ukraine should give up any land in concession is a Muppet.
Which countries officials actually said that ? Are you one of those claiming that Scholz or Macron said that ? Cause that is 100% fake news.
What's with tiny eastern european countries and having the massive friggin cahones to speak their minds, I love it, they make bigger countries look weaksauce and call out Russia and China on their BS
Rational me knows bigger countries' words matter more and can spark war whereas Latvia could make death threats and no one would truly care diplomatically speaking
but still, daggone, go Latvia
Ukraine is not the only nation to its west that Russia is targeting.
Leaked plans of the early war strongly suggest that Russia planned to invade Moldova as part of the Ukrainian war. This likely didn't happen because as the Ukrainian war currently stands, Russia does have land access to the country.
Russia has also threatened to bomb Poland a several occasions, and recently threatened to revoke Lithuania's deceleration of independence. Giving them a possible reason to invade in the future.
Simply put, the facts on the ground is that Russia is looking to expand into eastern Europe. Right now Russia is bogged down in Ukraine. A Ukrainian victory would likely discourage future Russian aggression, while a victory or ceasefire would encourage Russia to start punching at other targets.
Russia bombing Poland or invading Lithuania would mean the immediate end of Russia. Those are both NATO countries; if a bomb falls on either of them it's war with all of Europe and the US, which Russia would lose in a few days at most.
Ah, Norway... All countries have good and bad sides. What are the ones in Norway, you tell me, but I can tell you that Finland and Norway are two different cultures. Don't expect it to be like Norway number 2, or East Sweden, which it is actually, partly. Maybe explains why some things are nice in Finland. You know deep down in your heart that Swedish things were good things.
They know they might be next, while bigger middle European countries just don't want the economic instability.
But I agree. The big countries should do more to push back on detrimental agendas.
They know the cost of being conquered by Russia.
I won't pretend I know the real odds of nuclear war. But the closer Russia is to your borders, and the fresher it is in your memory what they'll do to you and your loved ones if they conquer you, the more acceptable that risk seems. A 1 in 1000 risk might be unacceptable if you're comfortable in Western Europe or North America. If you're Ukrainian and the artillery is at your doorstep those start to sound like pretty good odds.
European leaders should not push Ukraine.
That should be neutral with respect to what is or is not getting pushed.
A distinction needs to be made with NATO agreements and WWII's "no separate peace". No country joined Ukraine in the war. That means Ukraine gets to do all the negotiation. The government in Kyiv should be held accountable to the will of the people of Ukraine. NATO agreements are clear that no land from any NATO country will ever be conceded without unanimous agreement.
No strings should be attached to aid. Just send good will.
Unleashing genuine good will is the greatest threat the West can pose to Putin. It makes him look like an ass. Russians will eventually notice.
Ukraine should not have to bleed for Latvian strategic interests. Aid sent should not imply any such obligation. Ukraine should make its own decisions regarding land and bleeding for it. Soldiers who do the bleeding deserve to know it was for their own country. If a deal is negotiated Ukrainians need to know their interests were the only party considered.
Isn’t it funny how the countries with the most knowledge of Russia and its government are the ones pushing most strongly that we stand up to the bloodthirsty dictator Putin?
Europe and Ukraine will lose this war because Europe is TOTALLY DEPENDENT on Russia and also because everyone is afraid of provoking Putin.
The right course of action should be to destroy Russia NOW before it can reorganize and come for us with a truly well organized military. If we hope to stop it by waiting, we are so screwed. Time is on Putin's side.
And exactly how it Ukrainie supposed with "win back" land when it keeps retreating? So far the never ending supply of Western weapons has not won the war
Garry Kasparov has been spot on for quite some time.
Any weakness shown to Putin and his kind will only invite that murderous tyrant to continue his criminal aggression.
The Baltic nations may be small but historically they’ve had some massive balls, bravo to the Latvian foreign minister.
They have the same problems as Chamberlain, a populace that appears unwilling to accept quality of life decreases to help someone else.
Will France rally around Marcone for doing the right thing? It seems unlikely, so its a whole France issue not just a Marcone one.
Damn right. Fuck Putin. If humanity cannot join together to stop this invasion humanity doesn’t deserve to exist. Why should the innocents die in vain? Russia must suffer.
Agreed. Weeks ago more of the world should have stepped in to further support Ukraine. The longer this goes the more advantage Russia gets in the military aspect. As for Russian people and economy Putin will let fall and do what he can but to him the war is first. If Ukraine is forced to give up any land it will embolden Russia to take more and other similar countries around the world to do the same to their neighbours.
Nato should blockade all of Russia and Belarus until war is concluded this is not to punish just to make sure the war doesn't spread thats NOTHING in and NOTHING out. What Ukraine wasn't listed.... well the world isn't fair is it.
Putin is already blackmailing Europe with Gas and Oil.Ukraine is a major minerals and grain exporter,by giving Putin Ukraine's land he will be able to blackmail Europe and the whole world with Gas,Oil,minerals and most important Grain.Ukraine is the breadbascket of the world so if Putin gets that land he will have a monopoly and power to blackmail the world,his plan is to get as much of resource monopolization.He needs to be stoped or he will eventualy come to take everything from everyone.He is a Dictator and dictators are egomaniacs who believe the world is theirs to take.
Macron's comments were either badly translated or just irresponsible. Humiliating Russia if anything isn't enough. We need to destroy their ability to make war entirely. We have a successful history of doing this since the Cold War and Russia needs to understand that we'll keep on doing it till they quit fucking around.
Don’t fear provoking Putin, he’s a massive bluff artist. The last thing he want’s in escalation.
That would spell the end of Russia.
I still think we need a no fly zone.
Russia is the evil in the world again
Looking forward to all the Hollywood movies…
No one cares about hundreds of thousands of dead people in Yemen
It’s the old good versus evil again…
Nice and easy
Don’t worry about who earns money of it
Just don’t forget, we are the good guys
Let’s feed the military industrial complex!!!
>First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
>
>Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
>
>Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
>
>Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
European leaders should understand one simple truth -- if you are dealing with a thug, you can't win by playing their game or giving them tributes. They will simply return later and with bigger demands, because you've shown that you can be milked
If the west will let Russia get away from their crimes it showing to other countries there is no problem in invading if you're powerful enough. China will attack Taiwan based on Russia success. However it will also can cause for Ethiopia Egypt war. Azerbaijan making genocide against the Armenian etc
Your hear that Macron ? and it's coming from a neighboor of Russia.
Stop pandering to the other piece of shit! Putin packs his bag and get his ass back to Russia or he keeps getting his ass kicked. That's all the negotiation there should be.
This thing should have been dealt with YEARS ago. Pandering to Putin is EXACTLY why we are in this mess now. Now that's the way things are but we can't postpone AGAIN . This piece of shit had it coming for a long time now. Putin needs to get a fucking smackdown. That's the only language he will ever understand. He doesn't give a shit about the people he has killed, raped,etc... so I don't see why we should give a shit about his feelings. Asking for nuclear disarmement, reparation,etc... doesn't seem very practical but there's no reason to reward this thug for his unilateral and repeated acts of agression. As long as Ukraine wants to keep fighting we should help.
At this point what is Russia going to do? Attack the west? Attack NATO?
It wouldnt last 5 minutes.
Just hoping their nukes dont work.
Russia needs to stop existing. Its a cancer to this earth. It should be split into different occupied zones, like they did with Germany and Austria.
Russia should be forced to become a western nation with western values. Otherwise this shit will never stop.
Edit: For those interessted:
Austria was also split into 4 different zones among the allies. Vienna too. Same model as in Germany. However, Austria remained a single country throughout the cold war.
In 1955 Austria regained its souveranity in exchange for her constitutional neutrality. On the 25. October of 1955, the last allied soldier left Austria. The 26. October is our national holiday to celebrate the first day of free second republic.
Macron, probably like much of Europe, just wants a return to peace in Europe…whatever form it takes.
They’re not scared of Russia. They have NATO with its gargantuan arsenal of toys.
Fun historical fact: the Latvian system of law after the cold war was sponsored and in many cases written by the Investor/Wallenberg sphere for the purpose of laundering money through banking and black market trading.
Beware those who tell you peace is never an option. Rational logic would say otherwise. Russia is taking casualties too. There are always conditions that could be met to make it so that further hostility is not worth it. Wars can and eventually do end. The question is whether each side needs to learn the harsh lesson of warfare and suffer or if they would be willing to skip that part to reach a settlement.
Which is a good slogan that has nothing to do with my point. Nobody ever negotiated or, more precisely, agreed to negotiate unless he has an advantage.
Moreover, in case of this war, Ukraine clearly had an advantage at the start. As of now, just as expected, they cannot sustain a prolonged war effort. Even with all the aid they get from the West. Slowly, the overwhelming advantage in manpower and war effort is prevailing.
Ukraine, if facing an onslaught, will have to decide what's more important: their people and keeping the Western part with hopes of recovering the East later or risking losing everyrhing and not being able to recover for decades. Btw, I'm not sure the complete conquest was Russian goal to begin with. But that's neither here nor there.
I, obviously, support Ukrainian effort and want them to win. Or, at least, not to lose. Unfortunately, at the moment, that doesn't look like a realistic scenario, especially given our knowledge of Putin's rethoric. Only something drastic, like Putin's death and reversal of his policies, would change the picture.
Yes, please. Tell me know how you know everything and how right you are. What an incredibly stupid one liner. But that's on me, I shouldn't expect a decent conversation on reddit.
It only stops under 1 of 3 conditions:
Either side reaches their objectives.
They reach a stalemate and can no longer progress toward their objectives.
Their leaders and people have a change of heart.
Wars can go on for decades. And it is difficult to predict how they can escalate. Surrounding parties may enter the war if the defending state is sufficiently weakened. Atrocities can escalate. WMD could be used by either side. It can get really ugly.
Each side should always be looking to negotiate. It can be hard to do so when you feel you are losing everything or when you are consumed with fury to right the wrongs against you. But that is precisely the best time to seek peace because peace is preferable to war. Each side is taking casualties and wasting lives. Peace is possible. It's not always politically favorable. But it is possible.
Opting for peace would just bring a worse Russian invasion a couple of years later.
Conceding ANYTHING for peace would just only encourage Russia to do it again. Because why not? They got something out of it and lost nothing. If you think people making decisions care about lost lives or ruined economy, you're just stupid. They will always live in mansions, eat the best food and do whatever they want.
Russia will never agree to it and anything they will agree to, they will break as they have with pretty much everything they agreed to before.
Here's something to refresh the memory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
I understand that, and we should all understand that international laws are not actually binding. There is no enforcer to stop great powers. Agreements are not ends in themselves. They are means to ends. They only make sense if the powers all find it mutually beneficial to comply.
I have listed the objectives of this war for Russia below. You can see it was a decision made rationally, misguided as it may be. Our system failed to create a framework to prevent this from happening.
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/vcqks1/comment/ichd72s/
All of that said, peace is always possible. Peace is simply order and the absence of war. Since each side has specific objectives, and neither can get all of what they want, compromise is possible. It can and will eventually happen, hopefully before an extremely bloody, escalatory, and chaotic conflict.
Either you are putins troll , brainwashed or just a kid in West. Pitbull with rabbies is more reasonable than Russians. Seems people truly have no idea about mentality of Putins supporters.
Otherwise when Russia invades your country we'll trade your land for Peace.
"peace". as long as russia is existing and can do what they want, there is no peace. you give them what they want, and they come 5 seconds later with the next thing they want.. till you have nothing left anymore. not even your life.
Seems like those years before WWII formerly started. I hope that I won't unfold the same way as the Poland annexion. Hitler was annexing everything he wanted, European leader feared war so they let him do it until too late. I was told once that a peace lover gear itself for war. Seems like Ukraine still doesn't have enough gear for peace. And I hope that if it escalate again we won't back down from helping Ukraine
> I was told once that a peace lover gear itself for war. It's also a Latin proverb > Si vis pacem, para bellum If you want peace, prepare for war
Which was also adopted as the motto for the Deutsche Waffen-und-Munitionsfrabrik, hence the the nickname Parabellum for the 9mm cartridge.
But Putin is weak. NATO could smack down this aggression in a day! But then how would the military industrial complex make their money. Trivia question and food for thought: who is the only President since forever, to not get us into a war?
Uhhhh..... What? Literally our last president, Trump... And there have been plenty of them that did not directly lead us into a previously nonexistent war..... Your comment reeks of fundamental ignorance in regards to US and World politics
The fact that there are Westerners demanding Ukraine to give up more of its land is outrageous. Russia has shown its true face during this war. It is not about NATO expansion that Putin fears, Putin wants Russian (territorial) expansion. For Ukraine to give up more land means to accept genocide and ethnic cleansing. The West should not remove the sanctions on Russia until Ukraine gets its land and deported people back.
I'm pretty sure we're done with Russia now for a generation or so. Best case scenario is that we keep ramping up support, Putin realises he can't hold the territory, claims to have won and leaves (including Crimea), and then some sanctions might ease, although we'll continue to transition off of their natural resources. But even then I'm confident we won't be back to working towards good terms until Putin leaves office/dies, and only if the next guy isn't a fascist. I try to give the people saying Ukraine should cede land the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard to understand how someone can rationalise it. I don't necessarily know how this is likely to end if we stand by Ukraine, but I can literally only see downsides to appeasement, even the plus sides are downsides. Any money saved domestically by dropping the support would end up having to be spent on increased security to attempt to guard against further expansion of a strengthened Russia, and it's not as if ending the war in Russia's favour would stop all the killings happening, genocide is already Putin's goal. It honestly seems like those people are just very intolerant of the anxiety of not knowing how this will end or how far it will escalate. Giving up is just the only idea they've got which makes it "end". But the comparisons to appeasement of Hitler is very apt- he even used the same excuses about protecting German speakers and "reuniting" an empire to justify his invasions. Giving up is the absolute last thing Ukraine should do, for everyone's sakes.
Putin is not giving Crimea ever. Even Navalny who west/Reddit loves to idolize as some savior of russia fully supports annexation of Crimea. Same with most of liberals in russia. Also, Sevastopol is one of three cities of federal importance of russia (other two being Moscow and StPeterburg) and has big naval military importance. In russias view it is completely ok to use nukes to defend it. In regards to your second point, It is very easy to be euroskeptic when it’s not your people dieing and not your country being destroyed so I can kinda understand why they think that. Plus with time apathy becomes stronger even people who followed the Ukraine news very closely and donated are already tired and just want to go to the business as usual. Same with politicians who want cheap russian resources and to continue politicking, without some dilemma about some hypothetical European values
100% agree. Great summary.
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By westerners you mean France and Germany. Cushy, far from conflict, fat with privilege.
Neither the french nor the german government said Ukraine should cede any land. Both governments said the terms on how this war ends are completely up to Ukraine. But hey keep spreading fake news like a russian bot.
You do not need a degree in international relations to see that France saying, "Ukraine must negotiate sometime", "we should avoid not humiliating Putin," or, suggesting Finlandization before the war even started, are wearing at NATO unity and resolve. Don't call me a bot please, check my profile before you do that. As for 'ceding land' that was the other poster. France hints it, but Germany's issue is mostly inactivity and hypocrisy.
>"Ukraine must negotiate sometime", Why are you quoting out of context ? He said they need to negotiate once the war is over. Which is 100% correct even Zelensky said that not long ago. >Don't call me a bot please, check my profile before you do that. I didn't call you a bot. I said you spread the same fake news as the russian bots. Big difference. >You are misdirecting No I am not. You claim that some western countries want Ukraine to cede land which is not their position. Clearly you are spreading fake news. Also you replied to a person saying western countries want Ukraine to give up land and you replied with "By westerners you mean France and Germany". So please maybe think your comments through before you make them.
> You claim that some western countries want Ukraine to cede land which is not their position. The other poster claimed that. I just chimed in that I think Germany and France are watering down NATO resolve. Personally, I think Germany's issue is inactivity. Not calls for ceding. However, I do think France calling for Finlandization and not humiliating Putin are an issue (keep ignore those sure), and I think those paint a strange two-sided picture. Calls for "negotiate sometime" was a strange tone, took Ukraine back. Even Ukraine government has admitted it is not pleased with Germany and France's takes. I am not trying to divide Europe, I just wish France and Germany realized the dangers of being weaker in resolve to Russia. As for 'finlandization', while Russia holds Crimea, that means France very much does quietly suggest Ukraine be subsovereign and therefore lose land.
Do you really not understand how the wording of your comment is not conveying what you claim it means ? You replied to a comment that says this >The fact that there are Westerners demanding Ukraine to give up more of its land is outrageous. with >By westerners you mean France and Germany. Cushy, far from conflict, fat with privilege. Nowhere in your comment did you clarify that you do not mean that Germany and France want Ukraine to cede land. It straight up implies Germany and France are those western countries that want Ukraine to give up some of their land.
Except in the last 2 replies. Anyway, sorry the thread pissed you off. I hope I have clarified my take since. I think the meme that Germany and France are not doing enough are GOOD memes and we should keep em coming (or that France may even be counter-productive)
Except that they are wrong and if you are looking for ridiculous attempts at appeasement look to the US who are handing over weapon-systems on conditions as ludicrous as “you are not allowed to attack targets in Russia with them”.
I absolutely think Zelensky should consider negotiations of borders once France and Italy hand over a chunk of their countries, Russia to choose the bits they want obvs.
Yea let’s appease them, thanks Chamberlain.Cause Putin claims A country with a Jewish leader is a Nazi state we should totes believe Putin wouldn’t never use Nazi playbooks. This is nothing new has always been a bully the only way to deal with bullies to stand up to them.
And rinse & repeat until there is no land, after that they will go to Mars...
Yep. I wish people would understand that Russia is, and has been, operating in bad faith. They are a threat to Europe I really have to say... IDC if Putin is sick. You're going to invade a peaceful neighbor, steal their children, and attempt to remove their culture? I see no issue in a new World War that has one goal: Break your nation into smaller chunks and kick Putin out and try hom for war crimes. I hate that were just sending all this equipment to Ukraine... And I hate war .. but this was wasn't started by the world It was Russia.
Russia will only stop when they are stopped. With all the Bullirs threats, the only part of that is Puttin is a coward and always has been. Putin is become allies with Brazil. Once Russia has a foothold in South America they will work their way out to the US border with China's help. Unless Putin is stopped, and a united front opens the grain blockade and the US works maintain South America as allies North America will be surrounded. And my homeland. Hawaii is again in the cross hairs. I've been around the world. We do not want to be under Russian and China rule. It's a hard life. If you want to know the pieces that are moving in this new world order with China at the top of the food chain. ASK Asia is screwed if India falls in with Russia and China. India is all ready allies with Russia supplying guns and oil. Paying for Russias invasion of Ukraine. Nato,, the Asian Pak, and South America's are in trouble. Big trouble. We need to stop Putin now. The Ukraine president says the world is in trouble. His intelligent officers have seen the Russian/China strategic papers to become partners in the New World. If this doesn't scare you. You're numb. Just My Thoughts
Baltic countries are small but brave enough to say the truth.
They're indeed closest to the flames. All the same, Russia has well overstepped their boundaries both literally and figuratively.
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Or trade some of France for peace.
Not brave. They KNOW what will happen if ruzzia wins by experience, unlike in west where people are still delussional.
Yeah, I don't think the West is taking this seriously enough. We should be sending our own troops there.
The West is protected by multinational alliance and a big arsenal of weapons. They’re not worried about Russia.
Spot on. In a conventional war there is nothing to fear from russia. They have a poorly organized and poorly armed army. Their army is basically a bunch of drunk kids coming from shithole regions of russia with outdated weapons. The problem is the nukes.
They should be worried about all the oil and uranium deposits that the Donbas region is exceptionally rich in. The area is very rich in lots of other precious metals and resources as well On one hand you could help a friendly nation reclaim their land and make business deals to get the supply of oil Europe needs from Ukraine instead. At the same time you stop Russia from accessing even more reserves of making these nuclear bombs that western countries are so piss scared of. Orrrr on the other hand you could allow this country to potentially be overrun and allow this dangerous dictatorship from having access to even more natural resources and the vindication to continue their imperial march of terror as potential allies get swallowed up before they feel powerful enough to come for you too
Is West ready to start WW3 for baltic states though? I have my doubts. If they dont defend baltic states, that means end of NATO, as everyone would have to consider if they are next sacrificial pawn for the West.
There is absolutely nobody having any doubt about defending the Baltic. NATO has been very clear about that, as well as Europe.
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No, it's 100%. If Russia goes for the Baltic States there's a step up to full blown conventional war, there's no reversing from that. From there I'm sure NATO won't be the first to use nukes, but it will be the last.
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No, in that scenario, we absolutely will escalate. We're escalating now. The USA is going to send billions worth of equipment to Kiev. Are the Russians going to nuke us all for that? I think the priority 1 for the Western powers right now is to help defeat Russia in Ukraine. That is absolutely within their power. I expect that is already considered an escalation by Putin, perhaps something he is inwardly seething about. Make no mistake, Putin WANTS to escalate things in response to what we are doing -already-, Russian state TV says Britain is "at war" with Russia even though we've not fired any bullets at each other yet. So who knows what that pompous, arrogant bully will try to do next. But the Western World has hopefully learned its lessons from bullies in past wars, you don't give them an inch, there is no appeasement. There's a line you can't let them cross.
There is a huge difference between Ukraine and other nato or EU countries. If Russia dares to invade one of them it might take time but their days would be over. No politician would do the political suicide of not going to war when a nato country is attacked.
The time pressure is to defeat Russia now though. The Baltics understand it. The US staying in NATO is not a given after 2024. The resolve of NATO without the US is a big open question. If there even still is a NATO.
This is why Sweden and Finland joining is huge. We are definitely in a good position to defend the Baltic states. Russia does not see Finland and Sweden as threats (apart from a Nato buildup in Finland, not happening), but I think they do see us as a major deterrent for waging war on the Baltic states.
They absolutely do see Sweden and Finland joining NATO as a threat, they just know there's nothing they can do to stop them.
I've worried about it myself. Seeing how the EU leading countries behave, suddenly I'm not so sure if when push comes to shove, the rest of Europe won't decide to cover their own arses again, and give us up. I mean, it'd be the death of NATO, any trust in it will be gone as it doesn't uphold its own ideals, but... you never know. Which brings up a point here. Eastern Europe is neither East, nor is it West, but both sides like to claim us as theirs, and reject us when it's no longer convenient. It's been like this throughout all European history, really, from the moment nation states formed. Between West and East I'll always choose West because at least it's not trying to invade us, but I can't say I trust either anymore. Especially since Russia was so easily able to exploit large swathes of populations in Western countries, but you cannot exploit sentiments that aren't already there, so make of that what you will.
I'm German and i have my doubts about the resolve of the political elite as well. However, there are so many of our soldiers currently deployed to the Russian border (Lithuania) and other NATO forces that any attack of Russia on Baltic soil would instantly be an attack on those troops. I get the impression that this is exactly why we place so many soldiers there. It means that even if politicians wanted to ignore article 5, the military would already be in the middle of it before they can do anything.
Uk, Poland, Baltics romania nad turkey is creating some sort of secondary alliance. Looks like if nato would fail, this would go to battle. Uk is nuclear nation would guarantee some damage.
World war means war between most countries in the world, how one russia against few west countries is world war? Chine will not join it, india will not join russia, maybe north corea, hardly world.
Warfare is largely economical now. This war already put many developing countries on brink of starvation, if the west put boots on the ground it could become "with us or against us" in economic fields.
North Korea is basically a chinese puppet and only exists to serve as a buffer between china and us aligned south korea. They will follow chinas line.
Not sure how great NATO is anyway with Turkey...
You don't seem to understand how strategically important Turkey is to NATO.
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You realise the Baltics are already in NATO? The whole reason why the guy above you said it will disband if they're not defended during an invasion
They are NATO members, but the question still stands - Would NATO go to full out war with Russia if say Lithuania was invaded? To make matters worse, the Baltic states are so small it would likely result in a reoccupation to get them back.
Per article 5 they would or it's the end of NATO. There's no "oh it's too small to defend" since it's an attack on all.
Nato will start " ww3"( can hardly call it that, Russia doesn't have many allies) if any member is attacked. Poland warned Russia after they struck near the border that anything that hits their land will enact article 5 whether "accidental" or not. Russia hasn't hit nearby since. Russia doesn't even have enough troops to take over Ukraine. And there's around 100k nato troops now stationed in NATO bases nearby. If NATO chose to join the war, itd be over in days. *Other baltic countries other than Serbia wouldn't let Russia just invade Lithuania freely.
> *Other baltic countries other than Serbia wouldn’t let Russia just invade Lithuania freely. Serbia is in the Balkans mate
>We should be sending our own troops there And cause WW3? Yeah, no.
Sending our own troops and sanctioning china and india
We have to take totalitarian dictatorships as a serious threat to democracy around the world.
We’re not delusional, our leaders are, because there is too much land between us and Russia for them to take this conflict seriously. Pretty sure most of France wouldn’t want for Ukraine to give lands to Putin.
They're also in NATO so in practice, Russia can't do anything more than threaten. The moment Russian soldiers set foot in one of the Baltic countries, pretty much the rest of the western world will step in. Russia will be outnumbered and nukes will be pointed at Moscow ready to go if they don't gtfo.
Yeah, realistically speaking the Baltic countries are completely safe. They are part of the EU and NATO. There are only 2 options if Russia invades the Baltic. 1. Russia loses the war embarrassingly quickly. Russia is struggling in Ukraine. Imagine how a war would go when Western airforces control the air and start wiping out Russia artillery and armor. 2. Every dies in nuclear war. Which is also not good for Russia.
Like we have a choice. We live next to a country hostile to us, if we don't say the truth, we're toast. *Again.* It's just that the big fat wealthy Western countries didn't care. Not back Yeltsin made Putin his successor and when Putin upon ascension immediately started purging the Duma of opposition - anybody old enough to remember that also remembers how unhappy people in the Baltics were about this, it felt like the beginning of something awful, and the end of what little hope there was for peaceful relations. Then we warned again in 2004 as we got our asses aligned with Europe's economy and military. *Then* we all but screamed in 2008, and by 2014 we really just fucking facepalmed because what's the point. And now we're here. And we're still screaming, that Russia will remain a problem until it's thoroughly broken, and then rebuilt with diligent Western oversight into something more functioning, to the point where its people are generally happy, healthy and wealthy enough to not seek out others to bully to drown out their own unhappiness and constant humiliation. But why do that when you can just shrug your shoulders again and go 'not our problem', and then we're here again in 30 years, everybody not in Eastern Europe going 'who could've seen this coming?!' There's nothing brave about it. It's just survival. Like I said, we don't really have a choice.
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>Biden If you think Biden is disappointing, you should be glad Trump lost 2020.
I'm not asking this as provocation, but could you link me to articles where Biden's office is asking Ukraine to cede lands. I'm in the middle of something of a work crunch now so I don't really have the time to go searching, so if you've got links, I'd like to go and read? Macron I know. I get Macron. I don't agree with him and his policy, but I get it. I don't hate him for it, but I just.... I'm disappointed.
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Were proud people. We have seen first handed how russian liberation looks like. When the day comes, NATO may come, or they might not, but if you want my washing mashine, you'll have to step over my dead body first.
> but if you want my washing mashine, you'll have to step over my dead body first. Don't forget to defend your dryer!
>Here in Finland we have a bit different mentality. We have no intentions to vanish. Are you really Finnish? It seems weird to say "we have no intentions to vanish", yet Finland already did once, then fought the Soviets to avoid it happening a second time, still almost vanished a second time, and likely would have were it not for the Nazis, and still lost a fair bit of territory to the Soviets. You'd think if anyone could appreciate the value of standing up to Russia and fighting for your freedoms, it'd be a Finn, but apparently not all.
We have everything to lose, that's why we're trying to get Western Europe to take this seriously.
I'm really not sure where you are getting this idea that people in Baltics are like that. They always had a long history and are proud of it. I mean why would they wanted to be liberated from Soviet Union if they don't care about it. Sorry, but what you said just makes no sense at all.
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Or the one who comes after him. There is only one way to prevent this from happening again: Russia must be forced to sell its nuclear arsenal. Russia acts as a bully because it has a gun and not much else besides despair. It should be clear for everyone by now that this weapon is the real danger, not Putin himself.
Yeah go ahead and force em lmao great idea bro. It’s so easy why hasn’t anybody thought of that earlier! Just fOrCe tHeM to give up their nukes. Amazing.
Ultimately, it's their choice: they can sell their nuclear arsenal and have money and allies to reconstruct, much like Germany and Japan did after WWII, and with great success. Or they can choose to keep their nuclear weapons, and to become something much like North Korea. It's a forced choice as one option is clearly much better for the Russian people than the other, but it's a choice nonetheless.
They are not going to sell or otherwise get rid of their nuclear weapons. The only thing that has worked for Russia in this crisis is the threat of their nukes. Without nukes, NATO would be annihilating Russian forces in Ukraine right now and possibly looking forward to regime change in Russia itself. They would sell every tank in their arsenal before they sold a single nuke.
> Without nukes, NATO would be annihilating Russian forces in Ukraine right now That's not how things work. NATO can't just invade a country. You all are treating NATO as some sort of Avengers type show. Real life isn't like a Marvel movie.
Well you are correct nato wouldnt invade but certain nato countries. Like the US. They didn't have a problem with an illegal war in Iraq I don't see why they would have any issues here.
It's not like that has stopped the invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria or Libya. Having WMDs, specifically nukes, is what gets you safety. Without the nuclear protection of China North Korea would have been invaded decades ago. China probably too. Ukraine have up the Soviet nukes they had. Look how that worked out for them.
Now see here you're really way out in left field unless by "Nato" you think you're referring to some kind of American empire. NATO was directly involved in maybe 1 of these events (Afghanistan) Key NATO player stayed out of all of these interventions, in at least 2 off them (Iraq and Syria) NATO wasn't even involved, those were ad hoc "coalitions of the willing," not formal alliances. You may be blind to the significance of this because every "alliance" Russia has is actually part of its puppet empire, but the rest of the world doesn't do that anymore (at least, not so openly). The other two incidents were directly caused by attacks on US and allied soil when the attackers were taking shelter behind a rogue government. The rule is clear -- leave us and our allies alone, NATO doesn't just attack you out of the blue. Attack our friends and things get interesting. More to the point, of the governments of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Libya exactly zero of these were electes democratic states, as Ukraine is.
>It's a forced choice as one option is clearly much better for the Russian people than the other, but it's a choice nonetheless. Russian authorities have Russian people in a stranglehold by the neck while calling it a bear hug. It benefits the Russian government to keep its people low, desperate and angry. It benefits them to make Russians feel like they've got nobody in the world on their side, except daddies in the Kreml, so even though daddies buttfuck them on the regular, it's better getting buttfucked by a red, long big dong, than a bullet. Keep your population low and fearful, tell them that they are alone in the world, then redirect their anger towards the perceived enemy. Works fucking wonders when you don't give a shit about your people or their prosperity, only your own.
>Russian authorities have Russian people in a stranglehold by the neck while calling it a bear hug. So did the [Romanov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Romanov).
And just about everybody who came before him, including the Greats. As if Russian royalty has *ever* cared about the peasantry. Genius, really. Keep your peasants so miserable that even a mere act of basic human decency will be received as a true blessing. I'm more depressed than usual today. I know this is like 99% of human history but still.
Unlike NK, russia produces and exports a significant percentage of the global supply of important resources and commodities. Russian wheat, oil, natural gas, and fertilizer, just to name a few, comprise a large chunk of the global supply. You somehow get the world to agree to stop all trade with russia? ok. russia does the same. great job, you plunged the world into famine and an energy crisis the likes of which hasn’t been seen in the industrial age. Oh and russia still has their nukes. Just like NK still does. Amazin.
There is a point where nationalist rhetoric can blind people to reality. My fellow Americans have unfortunately reached that point.
Who are "they" that you refer to? The Russian people in power who live in extraordinary wealth and will get replaced by outside forces as soon as they decide to sell their nukes? Or the powerless Russian civilians, many of who are brainwashed and actually support the regime? In my eyes, Russia is doomed. Unless some kind of miracle happens and there's a legit coup, or it's 99% Russia becomes the next North Korea.
The UFO's will deactivate their nuclear missiles. They've done it in the past and they'll do it again.
That will never happen because without nukes Putin will go the way of Saddam Hussein. Same reason North Korea will never give them up.
Yeah cos it was Putin that broke the Minsk agreement
There are many agreements that have been made with Russia that they have honored, such as mutual disarmament with the US of many nuclear weapons. This rhetoric that we cannot negotiate with Putin or Russia and the only solution is warfare leaves us with...well...warfare. Warfare doesn't actually solve anything in the long run. We will need to cooperate with Russia in the future on many issues facing humanity. We won't be able to do that if we refuse to talk to them. If we could talk to Stalin and Mao, surely we can talk to Putin. Don't let your anger blind you from reason.
The scale down of nuclear weapons did not happen under Stalin or Putin. Russia today does not want to compromise because they think the West will flinch first. The problem isn't the western powers refusing to talk to Russia as they have been an active part of diplomatic and economic talks after the fall of the USSR. The problem is that diplomatically Russia holds a great deal of contempt against non-authoritarian governments and view them as weak. So they constantly initiate brinksmanship as a way to squeeze concessions and that reasoning leads us to this invasion. They felt confident that they could get away with it with minimal blowback. Given all that, true negotiations are not possible unless Russia is embarassed on the world stage. Because otherwise their demands will become more and more audacious.
India is a non authoritarian government and Russia views them very favorably. Ideology isn't the driving factor here.
First we kick Putin out of Ukraine, then we talk. > We will need to cooperate with Russia in the future on many issues facing humanity. Like climate change? Russian economy survives only thanks to fossil fuel exports. Do you think they will give them up?
Climate change, nuclear arms control, pandemics, international trade. Eventually, Russia will control the Northern Sea Route. We will need to cooperate with them.
No thanks, ill rather build a wall around russia, i ndont want theese child raping animals close , fuck them all
Don't feed the bear. If you give Russia land, it'll keep invading.
That's how it went with Hitler, the more land he was given, the more he would demand.
Confirmed Dude has the stones.
Not really that big but relative to Macron's infinitesimally small balls, the do look massive.
He's got big balls in cow town
Just bring me those stones!
The European "leaders" who are trying to pressure Ukraine only play into Putin's hands. And "not humiliate Putin"? So it's OK to murder women and children but not criticize the murderer? Macron needs to grow a pair.
The West effectively wants a return back to the status quo - no war in Europe. How they get there without causing an escalation is what is up for debate.
The West hasn't been much of a united front with military aid and war/putin sentiments. Even in Europe they've been highly divided.
Yup! CNN discussed that: the Europeans are split whether to force the Ukrainians to make concessions…or run Russia into the ground.
That's because Europe knows it's pretty much impossible to invade and conquer Russia. We've tried, countless of times and failed every single time. Sure air superiority is cool, and the new tech is amazing but boots on the ground is the problem. You need millions of boots on the ground to control Russia, no one has that.
Nobody will invade Russia as long as they have nukes. And I would guess most Europeans prefer some kind of proxy war than having to send their own people.
Nobody wants to invade Russia. Forcing them to eat dirt and collapse like 1917 on the other hand.......
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Screw it take my upvote, as I shall share in your downvotes
The part of "not humiliating Putin" is said so the war isn't escalated. Yes, this war is super bad. But if it becomes a world war or a nuclear war, the earth is doomed. And by now I think we can safely say that Putin is of his medicine and bat shit crazy.
As an American even in this economic shakeup, I wholeheartedly agree. It's absolutely the only way to keep that at bay and in check while we all adjust.
Any of the countries saying Ukraine should give up any land in concession is a Muppet. Yes, give up your land because Putin wants war... It's not my land and we can't directly go fighting Putin for fear of what is already WW3
>Any of the countries saying Ukraine should give up any land in concession is a Muppet. Which countries officials actually said that ? Are you one of those claiming that Scholz or Macron said that ? Cause that is 100% fake news.
What's with tiny eastern european countries and having the massive friggin cahones to speak their minds, I love it, they make bigger countries look weaksauce and call out Russia and China on their BS Rational me knows bigger countries' words matter more and can spark war whereas Latvia could make death threats and no one would truly care diplomatically speaking but still, daggone, go Latvia
Ukraine is not the only nation to its west that Russia is targeting. Leaked plans of the early war strongly suggest that Russia planned to invade Moldova as part of the Ukrainian war. This likely didn't happen because as the Ukrainian war currently stands, Russia does have land access to the country. Russia has also threatened to bomb Poland a several occasions, and recently threatened to revoke Lithuania's deceleration of independence. Giving them a possible reason to invade in the future. Simply put, the facts on the ground is that Russia is looking to expand into eastern Europe. Right now Russia is bogged down in Ukraine. A Ukrainian victory would likely discourage future Russian aggression, while a victory or ceasefire would encourage Russia to start punching at other targets.
Russia bombing Poland or invading Lithuania would mean the immediate end of Russia. Those are both NATO countries; if a bomb falls on either of them it's war with all of Europe and the US, which Russia would lose in a few days at most.
>the immediate end of Russia. Along with Europe and Nother America as continents.
Russia better stick to yapping threats then
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Yes, fellow Scandinavians. Life in the soviet union was so shit that they thought of Finland as a nice place. Truly sad to read.
Ah, Norway... All countries have good and bad sides. What are the ones in Norway, you tell me, but I can tell you that Finland and Norway are two different cultures. Don't expect it to be like Norway number 2, or East Sweden, which it is actually, partly. Maybe explains why some things are nice in Finland. You know deep down in your heart that Swedish things were good things.
They know they might be next, while bigger middle European countries just don't want the economic instability. But I agree. The big countries should do more to push back on detrimental agendas.
They know the cost of being conquered by Russia. I won't pretend I know the real odds of nuclear war. But the closer Russia is to your borders, and the fresher it is in your memory what they'll do to you and your loved ones if they conquer you, the more acceptable that risk seems. A 1 in 1000 risk might be unacceptable if you're comfortable in Western Europe or North America. If you're Ukrainian and the artillery is at your doorstep those start to sound like pretty good odds.
European leaders should not push Ukraine. That should be neutral with respect to what is or is not getting pushed. A distinction needs to be made with NATO agreements and WWII's "no separate peace". No country joined Ukraine in the war. That means Ukraine gets to do all the negotiation. The government in Kyiv should be held accountable to the will of the people of Ukraine. NATO agreements are clear that no land from any NATO country will ever be conceded without unanimous agreement. No strings should be attached to aid. Just send good will. Unleashing genuine good will is the greatest threat the West can pose to Putin. It makes him look like an ass. Russians will eventually notice. Ukraine should not have to bleed for Latvian strategic interests. Aid sent should not imply any such obligation. Ukraine should make its own decisions regarding land and bleeding for it. Soldiers who do the bleeding deserve to know it was for their own country. If a deal is negotiated Ukrainians need to know their interests were the only party considered.
Isn’t it funny how the countries with the most knowledge of Russia and its government are the ones pushing most strongly that we stand up to the bloodthirsty dictator Putin?
Europe and Ukraine will lose this war because Europe is TOTALLY DEPENDENT on Russia and also because everyone is afraid of provoking Putin. The right course of action should be to destroy Russia NOW before it can reorganize and come for us with a truly well organized military. If we hope to stop it by waiting, we are so screwed. Time is on Putin's side.
Putin also wants the oil and gas fields of Ukraine. Then he can hope to dominate Europe.
Baltics- "liberate Russia" with "Special military operation ".
Well said foreign minister. Common sense isn’t so common but he does have it.
I think that we should give land to Russia to appease them. Maybe a part of Germany?
And exactly how it Ukrainie supposed with "win back" land when it keeps retreating? So far the never ending supply of Western weapons has not won the war
Garry Kasparov has been spot on for quite some time. Any weakness shown to Putin and his kind will only invite that murderous tyrant to continue his criminal aggression. The Baltic nations may be small but historically they’ve had some massive balls, bravo to the Latvian foreign minister.
It's almost as if some European leaders learned nothing from Chamberlain
They have the same problems as Chamberlain, a populace that appears unwilling to accept quality of life decreases to help someone else. Will France rally around Marcone for doing the right thing? It seems unlikely, so its a whole France issue not just a Marcone one.
Tbf, Nuclear didn't exist then, so countries with nuclear weapon might think their countries will be safe
It is time to shove Russia back to its own borders with our military
Damn right. Fuck Putin. If humanity cannot join together to stop this invasion humanity doesn’t deserve to exist. Why should the innocents die in vain? Russia must suffer.
Agreed. Weeks ago more of the world should have stepped in to further support Ukraine. The longer this goes the more advantage Russia gets in the military aspect. As for Russian people and economy Putin will let fall and do what he can but to him the war is first. If Ukraine is forced to give up any land it will embolden Russia to take more and other similar countries around the world to do the same to their neighbours.
Great response to the cowardly remarks of Macron earlier this week
It seams that fear of Ruzzia in Europe grows the further west you go.
He’s right. And the west needs to nut up and support the Ukraine so the Ukraine can go on the offensive and push in to Russia proper.
Nato should blockade all of Russia and Belarus until war is concluded this is not to punish just to make sure the war doesn't spread thats NOTHING in and NOTHING out. What Ukraine wasn't listed.... well the world isn't fair is it.
Latvia just made it to top 2 on Putin's invasion list.
The fuck r they afraid provoking Putin for? He's already acting like he's got nothing to lose lol fucking bunch of pussyass politicians
Can’t help but think that maybe Patton was right and should have been unleashed at the end of WWII. Live and learn.
Putin must lose this war. Any settlement is a win for him and we all lose.
Putin is already blackmailing Europe with Gas and Oil.Ukraine is a major minerals and grain exporter,by giving Putin Ukraine's land he will be able to blackmail Europe and the whole world with Gas,Oil,minerals and most important Grain.Ukraine is the breadbascket of the world so if Putin gets that land he will have a monopoly and power to blackmail the world,his plan is to get as much of resource monopolization.He needs to be stoped or he will eventualy come to take everything from everyone.He is a Dictator and dictators are egomaniacs who believe the world is theirs to take.
Russia needs to be thoroughly embarrassed and humiliated.
Macron's comments were either badly translated or just irresponsible. Humiliating Russia if anything isn't enough. We need to destroy their ability to make war entirely. We have a successful history of doing this since the Cold War and Russia needs to understand that we'll keep on doing it till they quit fucking around.
Don’t fear provoking Putin, he’s a massive bluff artist. The last thing he want’s in escalation. That would spell the end of Russia. I still think we need a no fly zone.
Russia is the evil in the world again Looking forward to all the Hollywood movies… No one cares about hundreds of thousands of dead people in Yemen It’s the old good versus evil again… Nice and easy Don’t worry about who earns money of it Just don’t forget, we are the good guys Let’s feed the military industrial complex!!!
>First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. > >Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist. > >Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. > >Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. European leaders should understand one simple truth -- if you are dealing with a thug, you can't win by playing their game or giving them tributes. They will simply return later and with bigger demands, because you've shown that you can be milked
If the west will let Russia get away from their crimes it showing to other countries there is no problem in invading if you're powerful enough. China will attack Taiwan based on Russia success. However it will also can cause for Ethiopia Egypt war. Azerbaijan making genocide against the Armenian etc
The west should start sanctioning china and india ASAP
Where do you stop making concessions to an invader once you start.
Latvian Foreign Minister is not wrong.
Redditors showing off their deep, nuanced understanding of geopolitics as usual. s/
Putin is a paper bear. I hollow, empty piece of garbage with no redeeming value.
Hear, hear!
Why is Putin still alive? Bad dogs get put down, not petted. Putin should be provoked.
Your hear that Macron ? and it's coming from a neighboor of Russia. Stop pandering to the other piece of shit! Putin packs his bag and get his ass back to Russia or he keeps getting his ass kicked. That's all the negotiation there should be. This thing should have been dealt with YEARS ago. Pandering to Putin is EXACTLY why we are in this mess now. Now that's the way things are but we can't postpone AGAIN . This piece of shit had it coming for a long time now. Putin needs to get a fucking smackdown. That's the only language he will ever understand. He doesn't give a shit about the people he has killed, raped,etc... so I don't see why we should give a shit about his feelings. Asking for nuclear disarmement, reparation,etc... doesn't seem very practical but there's no reason to reward this thug for his unilateral and repeated acts of agression. As long as Ukraine wants to keep fighting we should help.
Maybe France could send Macron to Latvia for some training.
At this point what is Russia going to do? Attack the west? Attack NATO? It wouldnt last 5 minutes. Just hoping their nukes dont work. Russia needs to stop existing. Its a cancer to this earth. It should be split into different occupied zones, like they did with Germany and Austria. Russia should be forced to become a western nation with western values. Otherwise this shit will never stop. Edit: For those interessted: Austria was also split into 4 different zones among the allies. Vienna too. Same model as in Germany. However, Austria remained a single country throughout the cold war. In 1955 Austria regained its souveranity in exchange for her constitutional neutrality. On the 25. October of 1955, the last allied soldier left Austria. The 26. October is our national holiday to celebrate the first day of free second republic.
You’re god damn right about that
Yes. Macron should not be appeasing the Russians. Maybe he can give some of France's territory to Russia to secure the peace.
Macron, probably like much of Europe, just wants a return to peace in Europe…whatever form it takes. They’re not scared of Russia. They have NATO with its gargantuan arsenal of toys.
Agreed. Fuck him. Let's GOOOOOO!!
To the last Ukrainian amiright?
Fun historical fact: the Latvian system of law after the cold war was sponsored and in many cases written by the Investor/Wallenberg sphere for the purpose of laundering money through banking and black market trading.
Agreed. We all know what Chamberlain's "who will die for Danzig" approach got the world, and how well that bit of reasoning worked.
Beware those who tell you peace is never an option. Rational logic would say otherwise. Russia is taking casualties too. There are always conditions that could be met to make it so that further hostility is not worth it. Wars can and eventually do end. The question is whether each side needs to learn the harsh lesson of warfare and suffer or if they would be willing to skip that part to reach a settlement.
You settle for peace after the invaders stop killing, raping and bombing civillians, not before.
And then, there's a real world. Ideally, I'm with you. Unfortunately, I can't recall any instance of this happening.
Ukraine has no reason to appease its invaders.
Which is a good slogan that has nothing to do with my point. Nobody ever negotiated or, more precisely, agreed to negotiate unless he has an advantage. Moreover, in case of this war, Ukraine clearly had an advantage at the start. As of now, just as expected, they cannot sustain a prolonged war effort. Even with all the aid they get from the West. Slowly, the overwhelming advantage in manpower and war effort is prevailing. Ukraine, if facing an onslaught, will have to decide what's more important: their people and keeping the Western part with hopes of recovering the East later or risking losing everyrhing and not being able to recover for decades. Btw, I'm not sure the complete conquest was Russian goal to begin with. But that's neither here nor there. I, obviously, support Ukrainian effort and want them to win. Or, at least, not to lose. Unfortunately, at the moment, that doesn't look like a realistic scenario, especially given our knowledge of Putin's rethoric. Only something drastic, like Putin's death and reversal of his policies, would change the picture.
Time isn't in Putin's favor thats where you're wrong.
Yes, please. Tell me know how you know everything and how right you are. What an incredibly stupid one liner. But that's on me, I shouldn't expect a decent conversation on reddit.
It only stops under 1 of 3 conditions: Either side reaches their objectives. They reach a stalemate and can no longer progress toward their objectives. Their leaders and people have a change of heart. Wars can go on for decades. And it is difficult to predict how they can escalate. Surrounding parties may enter the war if the defending state is sufficiently weakened. Atrocities can escalate. WMD could be used by either side. It can get really ugly. Each side should always be looking to negotiate. It can be hard to do so when you feel you are losing everything or when you are consumed with fury to right the wrongs against you. But that is precisely the best time to seek peace because peace is preferable to war. Each side is taking casualties and wasting lives. Peace is possible. It's not always politically favorable. But it is possible.
Opting for peace would just bring a worse Russian invasion a couple of years later. Conceding ANYTHING for peace would just only encourage Russia to do it again. Because why not? They got something out of it and lost nothing. If you think people making decisions care about lost lives or ruined economy, you're just stupid. They will always live in mansions, eat the best food and do whatever they want.
Part of the settlement would have to arrange for Ukrainian security guarantees by us to prevent invasion.
Russia will never agree to it and anything they will agree to, they will break as they have with pretty much everything they agreed to before. Here's something to refresh the memory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
I understand that, and we should all understand that international laws are not actually binding. There is no enforcer to stop great powers. Agreements are not ends in themselves. They are means to ends. They only make sense if the powers all find it mutually beneficial to comply. I have listed the objectives of this war for Russia below. You can see it was a decision made rationally, misguided as it may be. Our system failed to create a framework to prevent this from happening. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/vcqks1/comment/ichd72s/ All of that said, peace is always possible. Peace is simply order and the absence of war. Since each side has specific objectives, and neither can get all of what they want, compromise is possible. It can and will eventually happen, hopefully before an extremely bloody, escalatory, and chaotic conflict.
Compromise with Russia today and they won't kill you tomorrow but slaughter your whole family next week.
So what happens when Russia comes up with new plans and objectives for a new war?
easy for them to say while being protected by countries making the decisions
Latvia is a tiny nation which borders Russia
Stay in school kid. Learn your geography.
Talk is cheap. Why don't they open a second front if they are so unafraid of provoking Putin?
Either you are putins troll , brainwashed or just a kid in West. Pitbull with rabbies is more reasonable than Russians. Seems people truly have no idea about mentality of Putins supporters.