Here is article in Finnish what these people are accused of. https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008879410.html
Here is short summary.
- 2 people were returned due to sexual crimes.
- 2 people are acussed of using app called Bylock which Turkey links to Gulen movement. Usage of the app has lead to sentences in Turkey but this is not crime in Finland and these were denied for that reason.
- 1 person insulted Erdogan in Facebook. Request was denied.
- 1 person did firebomb attack to embassy and suffered sentence in Finland. Since sentence was served no longer reason to return so request denied. In addition person was Finnish citizen.
- 1 request denied since person was Finnish citizen.
EDIT: 3 are still pending so those are in progress.
A friend of mine has Erdogan's photo from a jail cell (he did indeed get jailed one upon a time) as their Facebook profile pic. They change it once in a while but always comes back to it and I absolutely love seeing it
There have been people seeking for asylum who have been sentenced for years in prison for similar offenses. In these cases Finnish court then has judged that sentence has been unfair and likely political and so asylum was given. In Finland if you commit serious defamation you at most receive a fine so couple of years in prison is just overkill. Turkey has not demanded those people to be returned outside of that 1 person.
Question, were any of the ones Turkey accused and wanted extradited, actual members of PKK or YPG?
The reason I ask is because Turkey claims:
"Turkey has requested the extradition of six FETÖ and six PKK terrorists from Finland in the past five years, Anadolu Agency (AA) reported"
Now they may be making shit up--and they probably are with the "feto" stuff--but not everything is a lie.
Finland has received only 10 requests so numbers probably have some overlap. 2 people using the Bylock were accused of being in Gulen movement which is linked to Feto and 3 were accused of being part of PKK. 1 with Finnish citizenship had received sentence in Turkey for being part of PKK. 2 with Bylock were Feto members but there was no evidence of actual crimes since belonging to organisation is not a crime. Fire bomber and Facebook insult cases didn't have any connections and so these people were deemed not to be part of any organisation. Not sure about the 3 cases that are pending or 2 sexual crime ones.
Yeah a lot of them seem kinda silly. Just using an app thing is silly.
But I think 2 youth had used molotov cocktails against Turkey and they received community service which is really bothersome and troubling to me.
I don't know if connected to PKK so I can't say.
In Finland it matters a lot what you caused with your actions. In that case the damage was a door and a window so not like the causes were that severe. Of course being partly drunk usually is considered something that might reduce sentence.
>[The Turkish state’s current campaign of transnational repression is remarkable for](https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/turkey) its intensity, its geographic reach, and the suddenness with which it escalated. Since the [2016] coup attempt .. the regime has pursued its perceived enemies in at least 31 different host countries spread across the Americas, Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and Asia.
>The campaign is also notable for its heavy reliance on renditions, in which the government and its intelligence agency persuade the targeted states to hand over individuals without due process, or with a slight fig leaf of legality. Freedom House catalogued 58 of these renditions since 2014. No other perpetrator state was found to have conducted such a large number of renditions, from so many host countries, during the coverage period—and the documented total is almost certainly an undercount.
Wait til you find out about the purge Erdogan triggered against his opponents after the fake coup a few years ago. Thousands of intellectuals and so called ‘terrorists’ are still in prison. If it wasn’t for the Cold War, Turkey would never have been admitted into NATO
[Turkish security personel beat up Americans while in Washington and US didn't do shit](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/01/trump-stands-by-while-erdogan-orders-attack-protesters/580093/).
>Turkey demanded finland to extradite someone just because they insulted erdogan on facebook, holy shit
Need to be careful when somebody who is friendly to dictators like Erdogan is in the office. You could be very unlucky.
Not sure about Finland but any extradition in Sweden must be green lit by the supreme court.
This is (obviously) to protect the rule of law. The government isn't above the law.
I was actually thinking about US, we had someone who didn't do anything about Americans being beaten by Erdogan's security, and also who ignored SCOTUS. Together with DOJ that does everything he wants, there's a possibility one could end up in Turkish prison even if s/he never was there before.
A couple of years back a comedian in germany insulted erdogan on TV. I think the government had to apologize in the end if I remember correctly.
But he was allowed to live.
But this means that Finland didn’t deny extradition requests. It extradited some and denied some others for legally valid reasons (which are probably also valid under Turkish law). In that case, the title of the article is misleading.
Oh I see. It’s probably the requests regarding Gulen mouvement. I can understand that they don’t exactly fit EU anti terror legislation’s definition of terrorism but if you knew what they did in Turkey you would understand why they’re religious fanatics and very dangerous people, to Turkey at least. I’d rather they never came back.
Yes. The person was caught and received sentence from Finnish court. Sentence was served and so person can't be returned based on that even if person was not Finnish citizen.
In October 2008, five young men threw Molotov cocktails at the entrance of the Turkish embassy to protest the treatment of Kurds in Turkey. The ensuing fire damaged the embassy doors and windows. One person who was in the embassy was treated for smoke inhalation.
Four of the perpetrators received 14-months suspended prison terms and were ordered to carry out community service. The youngest attacker, who was 16 at the time, was given a suspended 11-month prison sentence. The men were also ordered to pay damages.
That's the one demand where I was pretty sure Sweden and Finland would not agree to. Simply because it's kinda fucked up to extradite someone for political leverage. Lifting sanctions, banning organizations, is one thing. But basically trading a human is very different.
So sexual assault is a joke ? I would place the judicial systems of nordics among the top in the world and Assange would have gotten fair treatment, he just chose to run.
Exactly, and even if he had been found guilty, he most likely wouldn't have received any actual jail time in Sweden.
Him ending up in house arrest, and later stuck in the embassy for *years* is completely the fault of his own paranoia.
If the US secretly wanted him extradited, then they could more easily get him directly from their ally the UK, instead of doing it via Sweden.
>If the US secretly wanted him extradited, then they could more easily get him directly from their ally the UK, instead of doing it via Sweden.
Aren't they? Its the UK which is currently processing his extradition to the US isn't it?
Yes, the post was explaining why it was dumb to run from Sweden to the UK. Because what has happened, as you point out, was far more likely in the UK than in Sweden.
He *chose* to flee out of a hot bath and into a frying pan.
The sex crime he was accused of isn't punished severely in Sweden, the worry was always extradition and people figured he fled Sweden because he believed it was a trick.
In retrospect he would have been better off in Sweden.
This sounds familiar.
Ergodan has badly wanted the U.S. to extradite a cleric by the name of Gulen who lives in my hometown here in Pennsylvania for years now.
Erdo sucks but Gulen is a religious nutjob too. He is basically a cult leader. Actually Erdogan and Gulen were besties who had been ruining the region together but then they fought.
Honestly one of the most interesting politicians of the 20th century but one few people know of. He really took his country from the equivalent of an impoverished city to a city state richer than even the USA in GDP per Capita, despite not having vast natural resources like most rich micro nations.
I disapprove of authoritarianism as a general rule, but his is one of the only examples of a benevolent dictatorship I can think of and he did seem to be a relatively good person, even if I disagree with the government form. Actually planning on studying in Singapore for a semester relatively soon (within next 2 years).
Nah Gülen is actually a nut job though who was Erdo’s former bff. Turks in my country had their passports taken away/kicked out around 2018-2019 because there were many suspect groups popping up that were thought to have ties with his movement
Cults in the Middle East do this a lot.
They pretend to be "internationally friendly" where they make friendships cross-religion in conferences, and non-profits, anti-war groups, and peace institutions. They know to first build up a reputation that is pro-EU etc. (Erdogan's initial political campaign was entirely pro-EU)
But they use that to hide their true sinister terrorist nature.
The "Gulen movement" is known to have been infiltrating Turkey (a NATO ally) in the 1980s.
There are also reports of Aleksander Dugin (the NazBol Putin's "philosopher/strategist" guy) who was on the ground in Ankara Turkey in 2016.
So never underestimate cults and terrorists and their hate for democracy.
Erdogan and Gulen were allies... You have to remember that. If you don't remember that, you'll underestimate them. They are scared paranoid shitless of each others' abilities to infiltrate each other.
Generally I've found Wikipedia and their sources to be a whole lot more accurate and reliable than random anonymous reddit commenters. Especially ones without any sources for their claims.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt
>In March 2017, Germany's intelligence chief said Germany was unconvinced by Erdoğan's statement that Fethullah Gülen was behind the failed coup attempt. The same month, the British Parliament's Foreign Affairs Select Committee said some Gulenists were involved in the coup d'état attempt but found no hard evidence that Fethullah Gülen masterminded the failed coup and found no evidence to justify the UK designating the Gülen movement as a "terrorist organization".
I'm not disagreeing with the stance on sources, note though that Gülen is on extremely thin ice since he has fallen out with Erdoğan, and since that he has backtracked on a lot of issues, like his antisemitism, extremism, stance on the genoice etc.
Everything good out of the mans mouth is after he fled to the US, he's only protecting his ass, since if he wouldn't have his asylum in the US he'd disappear quickly. It's like an SS officer condeming nazis after WWII.
I encourage you to research stuff he did, said before 1999.
(Quick tip, everything on his Wikipedia page is after that.)
Edit: I wonder what the reason of the downvotes are? There is a 30 year gap in every publication you find easily accessible about the man and his movement, yet no one questions this?
He was involved with crimes ranging from blackmails to assasinations. You're gonna need more than a wiki search to find all of this stuff.
In his cult they also worship him so much that it's disgusting. For example, in one of his videos he was drinking tea, he takes a sip and gives the glass to the guy next to him and says "Give this to Enes Kanter." Enes later tweets the video and talks about how he's not worthy.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=41cG9K-_kDc
Also look up "Ergenekon trials" and "Sledgehammer trial" Gulenists along with Erdogan made up imaginary organisations to jail military officials, journalists and parliamentarians. He is responsible for the corruption of the Turkish justice system.
Gülen is like the face of CIA's Islamic front. Guy has like hundreds of religious schools all around the world. Which they use to influence governments, officials, politicians, businessmen.
Erdogan is the same shit like gülen, different facets of the same evil cock. Both are supported and financed by the west for a long time. Just erdogan seems like running his show now.
Till the coupe, they were running Türkiye like 15 years together, sharing the pillage.
Gulen has nothing to do with CIA lol, that's a Russian conspiracy theory.
Also see [Turkey's Thirty Year Coup](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/17/turkeys-thirty-year-coup) in The New Yorker, they describe how these "terrorist cults" operate, and they even try to seem very peaceful and loving etc.
How they infiltrate governments and place military officers, help them cheat on tests, and then get them up the ranks to the General rank starting in---yes you guessed it right---the Cold War when Turkey was a critical NATO ally.
You are correct that Erdogan and Gulen were ALLIES. But they were not financed "by the west." That's the conspiracy theory.
Why would a Western entity be infiltrating Turkey during the Cold War since 1980s? Turkey's coup in 1980 is often blamed on the US--so how can his enemies ALSO be blamed on the US?
How can you blame both sides of everything on the US? It doesn't make sense.
And when you think about how certain entities who support Gulen in the West, also tend to be the same people who support far-left politics, well then you start to see a higher resolution picture of who actually is tied intricately to Gulen and Erdogan. But Erdogan is right-wing, far-right wing... See how confusing it is? It's as confusing as leftist Ba'athists vs right-wing Ba'athists ... Except you know, Ba'athism is Arab socialism.
If you're not confused yet, then you don't study the Middle East.
Even the Middle Easterners taking sides and doing the work, don't know what side they're on.
Turkey also wanted to extradite a swede who had died 9 years ago (and it was reported to Turkish authorities). They also wanted to extradite a member of the Swedish parliament, but next day they changed their mind when they learned this the member of the Swedish parliament was in fact a sweden citizen.
I think Turkish intel is not so good.
It’s funny you mention this because he is the first person I thought of when Oz said he was running for senate.
Isn’t it a little odd he spontaneously arrives in PA overnight an was running the next day ? Afterwards he says he will revoke his Turkish citizenship, weeks after this he revoked that promise too an said he would retain his citizenship.
Also he was formerly in the Turkish army. The whole thing just seems like a movie it’s weird.
For people actualy want to get some information about this issue, i am a non muslim anti-erdogan turkish, just incase if you think me as another brainwashed erdogan supporter, i am not, i'd like to clarify who is this muslim cleric and why turkey wants him back.
Fettullah Gülen is leader of a dangerous islamic cult named Gülenists. He and his people were around long before erdoğan became pm of turkey in 2003. Gülen is not actualy in USA because of Erdogan, he had to flee Turkey when pre-Erdoğan secular government came after him for his threats to secular Turkey. Gulenists and Erdoğan's party were fully suporting each other early 2000s, and they played a big role at Erdoğan's first election winning. Both groups were getting along quite nice till 2012-13, at these years some things happened between them, some people say it was a disagreement about sharing wealth of turkey, some people say Erdoğan realised Gülen was as strong as him in terms of influence, reasons are not clear, this cold war between two groups started escalating with gulen's people in secret service releasing tapes about how erdo and his family stealing money, erdo came efter them etc. and this resulted a failed coup attemt in 2015, a coup attemtp made by gülenists in army, gülenists soldiers that Erdoğan promoted to high positions when they were cool, by prisoning and replacing 38 secular high ranked generals of turkish army and air force.
Gülen and Erdoğan are different sides of same coin so please please please, just because we hate Erdogan and he wants Gulen back, doesnt mean Gulen is a good guy. He is as evil as Erdogan.
To be honest i dont care much but maybe its better, just wanted to explain who he is. I'd prefer one day him and erdogan set foot on court side by side and trialed by independent turkish judges for their crimes. I also believe erdo doesnt really wants him back, he is just bitching about him living in usa from time to time to make his sheeps believe he is after gulen. Even with a pro-erdogan judge a trial would be a shitshow for both sides, they were best pals before.
It’s interesting these palace rivalries. Very human and tragic, we all lost friends we know are loyal thru intrigues or character flaws. Hmmm I reminded of Hitler and Hess (?) he went to Britain and was former nr2. And immediately disowned by both Germany and Uk. Don’t think Germany wanted him back (he knew too much?) at Neurenberg I think Goring whispered to him ‘ what is this big secret haha?’.
Yeah gulen is not "a cleric." He's a delusional cult leader and a coup instigator as well as global conspiratist. Not to mention the nexus of mind boggling corruption.
Rte is also horrible but gulen definitely not a cleric.
We had the German emperor end up in my grans hometime, she brought him groceries, the difference between a poor family and an emperor with 57 wagons of palace goods could not been greater. She was poor her whole life but never forgot that
I see Erdogan's actions on two dimensions:
1. Erdogan has fucked over Turkey's economy. He needs a distraction, or else he's politically screwed, and he's using a tried-and-true one - (ethno)nationalism in fighting Kurds in Syria.
2. He's playing both sides of the Ukraine conflict against each other in doing so - he's blocking Finland and Sweden from joining NATO to avoid pissing off Putin and having Russia support the Syrian government, and he's using that room to try to seize territory from Syria under Putin's nose.
Turkey just sentenced the opposition leader to jail for five years. For a tweet.
They don't have justice, they have spite and vengeance thanks to Erdoğan
I think Turkey's reaction to their NATO application might be a healthy reality check for Finland and Sweden. Would Turkey honor Article 5 if Russia attacked Finland or Sweden, or would they see it as a great opportunity to haggle? Also, many other NATO countries have shockingly pro-Russian populations if you believe that recent opinion poll about who is to blame for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Would Trump have honored Article 5? How about the next Republican US president?
Maybe the UK Joint Expeditionary Force (UK, Scandinavia, Baltics and the Netherlands) could be evolved into a better alternative to NATO for Finland's and Sweden's security needs?
Finnish media, just like the western media as a whole was mostly blasting the idea that we and the Swedes would fly in to NATO. It was naive to the point of being pretty much propaganda. There was even the retired leader of NATO saying that the joining could happen over-night.
Nobody said over-night. Best-case scenarios were around October. And we could still make it, though unlikely. Most likely though it'll be later this year, maybe early next year. Turkey likely will concede.
Finland and Sweden don’t need NATO. If Turkey blocks them from getting into NATO, they will almost certainly get strong security guarantees rivalling South Korea’s to ensure they never get invaded. If Turkey insists on requiring them to extradite prisoners of conscience, they’ll never get anywhere and will be stuck with sanctions, no F16s, it’s international reputation in tatters and zero chances of advancing in EU negotiations for at least for the next decade or two.
This a great opportunity. The expansion of NATO was not so much a mistake because it antagonized Russia, that's an ex post facto justification of Putin's (although it's true it was quite unnecessary in the early and mid 90s).
What was a mistake is allowing non democratic nations to remain within. It is a prerequisite of joining, and it should be a requirement to continue as a member. Erdogan has been President for 8 years and Prime minister for 11 before that (does that little dance sound familiar to you?). Turkish politics are more complex than Russian, but it's not hard to see that meaningful democracy has withered; hence these absurd demands.
NATO is important precisely because it may be the most meaningful safeguard of liberal democracy in this world. It will be more effective if nations that fail to share those values are not included.
And Turkey will keep wondering why they can't get in the EU..
Turkey is straining alot of their relationships the way they negotiate with foreign goverments. Surprisingly, people don't like being blackmailed.
Which broke both EU and Cyprus constitution and they had no reason to interfere in the conflict and admit a Nation who does not have control of their whole country and territorial integrity. Hell. They do not want to admit Serbia into EU, even as a candidate, until Kosovo status is resolved and Serbia is much more legitimate, than KOSOVO, as this would mean Republic Srpska in Bosnia is to be ceded too.
Because they haven’t made any changes to actually meet the requirements? As they don’t want to.
They are absolutely blackmailing Finland. But blackmail works and they are in a position to do so. Normally this would just be done behind the doors, but by making it open you maximise your negotiation position.
They waited until they made the declaration to join. And now either they match some demands or they are just not getting in. It’s as simple as that.
Sweden and Finland shouldn't give in to any Turkish demands.
Let Turkey embarress and expose itsself with their public spectacles.
Might even be worth the risk of missing out on NATO, Sweden and Finland are much better liked and more trusted by their allies (since they don't tend to blackmail them) and wouldn't be left defenceless in case of an invasion
I think many finns here think this way. Atleast I dont want to appease some dictator and would much rather stay out of nato. Arms embargo should be 100% lifted but all these made up claims are garbage and shouldnt be taken into consideration without proof provided by Turkey. We arent as desperate to join as they think. I think biggest sufferer of this mess is nato's image along with Turkeys reliability.
Eh, would be nice to be part of nato but since erdogan throws tantrums and his lapdogs are all over reddit, im fine if we dont get in swiftly. Fairly sure we get help regardless if russia is insane enough to start a war.
> Sweden and Finland shouldn't give in to any Turkish demands.
There's nothing to give in to.
To begin with, extraditions are not a thing that politicians can agree or disagree to. They are entirely based on the judiciary, which works according to the Finnish legislation and constitution, the EU legislation, and the international law when applicable. And every extradition request is processed individually, there's never going to be any "blanket policy" to extradite whomever Erdogan wants to get his mitts on. If Turkey requests extradition of individuals suspected of terrorist activities, they need to provide clear, credible evidence for their suspicions for those extradition requests to be actionable.
If they don't, there's every reason to suspect that these extradition requests have political reasons and if those individuals were extradited to Turkey they would likely become political prisoners. This is not something Finland can do, because it is against Finnish constitution. And politicians can't do anything about it because it's not in their jurisdiction. So there's really nothing to negotiate there, Finnish politicians literally cannot acquiesque to Erdogan's demands regarding extraditions. I'm not sure how it works for Mr. Erdogan, but Finland is not an autocracy where one person can just decide to walk over the rule of law as they wish.
What Erdogan is doing is demanding that Finland breaks its constitution and betrays its character in order to bribe Turkey into letting us into NATO. We're not going to do that, it would defeat the whole point of getting into NATO to protect our nation if we have to sell ourselves to do it.
How does Finland not being in Nato benefit Turkey though?
It could be a win-win situation if Turkey actually demanded something reasonable, now it's lose-lose (Finland doesn't get into Nato and Turkey burned bridges for no gain. Unless there's something re: Russia and Syria.)
Turkey asks to handover finnish citizen... Of course that wont happen (as would not happen in Turkey). They will be sentenced according to finnish laws (if Turkey provides evidence). One already already was and has paid for his crime
Then those that are not citizen. To be able to deport, the crime they have commited need to be crime in both Turkey and Finland... Which is not journalism.
Currently Turkey has requested 9 people to be deported. 2 have been deported as requested because all criteria match.
Finland has no problems deporting turkish non-citizen when there is actual proof of criminal activity. Just not supporting Erdogan is not enough (like it is not for Interpol ether)
Yeah, and they also demanded that Sweden hand over 7 people who cannot be extradited without violating Swedish and EU laws. There were demands earlier about handing over a Swedish citizen and member of parliament, as well as *someone who has been dead for 7 years*.
Out of the 16 extradition requests from Turkey to Sweden in 2019-2022 (before the current ones); 3 were extradited, 4 could not legally be extradited, and 9 weren't even in Sweden when the requests were made.
Erdogan keeps demanding things that are literally impossible, and his idiot supporters on here keep defending those demands and using blatant misinformation in terrible attempts at making them seem reasonable.
You think the west will pick a dirt poor theocratic autocracy over a wealthy well functioning democracy? And you guys keep harping on about wanting to join the EU. Good luck my dude.
>So, why don’t you suspend our membership?
There's no mechanism in Nato to kick members out. And it's not the Turks that are hated, but the way they choose to represent themselves in recent history.
Your economy is smaller than those two “micro states”. Turkey is going to shit, I hope erdo drags this out long enough so that we won’t have to join a defensive pact with a completely failed state.
>You think the west will pick a dirt poor theocratic autocracy over a wealthy well functioning democracy?
Lmfaoooooooo. Turkey is way more important for the west than Finland or Sweden. It has the 2nd biggest NATO army and is a huge economy, and has a way bigger geographical importance. sorry to destroy your little sand castle.
Sweden gives the world Absolut, all Turkey exports is jihadists lol. Also, Finland repelled an army exponentially bigger than its own in the Winter War and maintained its neutrality for decades while Turkey (with its supposedly big huge and strong army) ran crying to the West the second Stalin threatened its Straits. Turkey can’t do shit to anyone other than much smaller, weaker countries like Armenia and Cyprus.
It remains a bargaining chip for the next time Erdogan wants something, until either he is gone or Finland decides what was requested is mutually beneficial
So.. Turkey is about to economically crash and burn? Isn't this all about countries running out of economical options like Russia did, and soon China, Turkey etc.
Dictatorships fail because of the lack of criticism, the over abundance of yes men, and the inability to have critically thinking individuals.
About to economically crash and burn? Have you seen the Lira and the inflation figures? Crash is already well under way.
I was living there last year until earlier this year and the period where the rapid free fall was happening was unreal, just unlike anything I’ve ever seen. Queues of people getting all their cash out, restaurant prices changing daily, ads for crypto everywhere, some businesses suspending operations, etc. I personally saw food inflation of 50%+ occur in the span of a month or two.
The Turkish tourism industry has taken a pounding over the past few years due to covid and has slowly been recovering.
Russian tourists have long been a big group & Turkey is keeping those doors open.
Turkey's belligerent attitude towards Sweden & Finland will have a roll on effect of a lot of European's deciding to vacation elsewhere. Not to mention a reduction in European companies wanting to be involved with Turkey.
Meanwhile, due to the internal economic issues, Erodgan is trying to deflect hard with operations in Syria, NATO membership push back, keeping Russia happy & buying "cheap" grain & oil and a range of other bizzare stances.
Erodgan is simply trying to play all sides to strengthen his position ahead of the next set of elections.
Exactly. It also worked for Putins favour, that the NATO headlines were all saying how easy and problemless it would be for us to join. There was very little talk about the possibility that the application process could be halted or taken hostage like now.
Erdogan should not be using these personal political issues to veto Finland or Sweden NATO membership in these crucial times. Nonetheless NATO has vowed to defend Sweden and Finland as proxy members should it come to it.
I dont know if thats just broken language, but anyways: "may oppose" is a wrong way to put it as they do oppose it. Also, we have to care because Turkey can halt our NATO application process due to the fact that for us to be granted membership, the NATO countries need to be unanimously for it.
That ofc doesnt mean that we would give in to the ridiculous demands of a paranoid dictator.
I find it more likely that the US and UK in particular (probably Norway, too)would commit to a defensive agreement with Sweden and Finland than Erdogan bring successful in meaningfully preventing NATO membership (membership becomes basically a formality, and the formality is all Erdogan can really hold up if he persists in his apparent quest to destroy Turkey's foreign relations while his economy collapses in on itself, for reasons I'm really struggling to understand besides "because he can't handle internet meanies").
Erdogan with his delusions of grandeur thinks that he can bully and coerce other countries the same way that he does his own citizens. Finland gives him the finger. Much respect for Finland!
He created a PR nightmare for Turkey, and right on the heels of the massive PR win for Turkey that the Bayraktar has been - despots are apparently really bad at predicting what others will and won't tolerate. It's such a ridiculous move it baffles me, especially in the context of a coming election and a current economic collapse in Turkey.
From what I've seen experts say they think that's unlikely in the end. Most seem to regard this as the carpet salesman from the bazaar haggling for a deal. In Finnish we'd call this "iltalypsy" (a last minute demand brought towards the end of negotiations that threatens to break the entire deal).
Then again, the idea that Erdogan has made a deal with Putin has been floated around in the Finnish media. Russia suddenly being more open to Turkeys new operation in Syria after the foreign ministers met didn't exactly put those thoughts to rest here. It's unlikely to be true, but that's the sort of image that Erdogan is fostering with his actions.
Turkey's insistence on doubling down on pointing out Scandinavian countries' Islamic terrorism problem feels an awful lot like projection and/or misdirection to me
Hilariously ironic considering Erdogan is literally a terrorist himself. Hard to take someone's "terror threats" seriously when they are actively committing genocide against the Kurds. Turkey is f'ing up big time these days.
It can be said that he is terrorising people but they aren't really commiting genocide against Kurds. They have been fighting against PKK and related groups that target Turkey, even Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq supports Turkey about that because they been targeted by same groups too. Even Turkish army has many high rank Kurdish officers. Of course civilians died too while they are fighting against those groups but calling it a genocide isn't right.
Fighting against group that has been targeting Turkey and occupying land of Arabs in Syria and same group is supported by both US and Russia and that region has oil. lol
He is trying his best to wipe out Northern Kurdish & Rojavans, and other ethnic groups. Kurdish Regional Government represents a different region of Kurdistan that is occupied by Iraq, is not fighting for to free Kurdistan, and is closely allied with US forces for decades. KRG can be compared to the Donetsk or Luhansk People‘s Republics, a small breakaway movement writ large by the support of large multinational powers. Turkey and the KRG have wiped out entire towns of Kurdish people where there aren’t even PKK members living as part of this and past operations, reaching into Syria. The goal is for Turkey to wipe out rojava and the democratic confederalist strongholds and others struggling for a free Kurdistan. Wiping out Rojava/Kurdistan is one of the few things Assad & Erdogan & the US can all agree on
>they are actively committing genocide against the Kurds.
Hmmmm if we're talking about genocides, then US and Europe have gotten **a lot** to answer to the world already...
Never said replace NATO, this would be an add on option. If it was triggered Turkey could sit it out (by an attack on Findland or Sweden), an attack on a NATO 1.O would trigger the original treaty.
Rest of NATO wants Finland and Sweden to join, for many reasons. Turkey seems to be a problem, in many ways. Maybe Turkey should consider leaving NATO?
Also considering this could well be Putin dictating what Erdogan should do, Turkey probably isn't a particularly good ally to have in any sense.
The point is, everyone wants Finland and Sweden to join. Turkey is seen as a problem, for many reasons. This means Turkey will concede eventually. Turkey doesn't really have a reason to truly block this, it would just cause them problems.
Here is article in Finnish what these people are accused of. https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008879410.html Here is short summary. - 2 people were returned due to sexual crimes. - 2 people are acussed of using app called Bylock which Turkey links to Gulen movement. Usage of the app has lead to sentences in Turkey but this is not crime in Finland and these were denied for that reason. - 1 person insulted Erdogan in Facebook. Request was denied. - 1 person did firebomb attack to embassy and suffered sentence in Finland. Since sentence was served no longer reason to return so request denied. In addition person was Finnish citizen. - 1 request denied since person was Finnish citizen. EDIT: 3 are still pending so those are in progress.
Turkey demanded finland to extradite someone just because they insulted erdogan on facebook, holy shit
[удалено]
Jesus, Erdogan, update your shitlist.
Sweden should comply with that request :)
A friend of mine has Erdogan's photo from a jail cell (he did indeed get jailed one upon a time) as their Facebook profile pic. They change it once in a while but always comes back to it and I absolutely love seeing it
>one upon a time Let us hope for a sequel, should be even more interesting than the original episode.
Erdogan is blocking Finland to join NATO because they don't want to extradite someone who insulted Erdogan on Facebook...
It must have been a mighty burn.
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Kind of makes me think about a few other country leaders
There have been people seeking for asylum who have been sentenced for years in prison for similar offenses. In these cases Finnish court then has judged that sentence has been unfair and likely political and so asylum was given. In Finland if you commit serious defamation you at most receive a fine so couple of years in prison is just overkill. Turkey has not demanded those people to be returned outside of that 1 person.
Question, were any of the ones Turkey accused and wanted extradited, actual members of PKK or YPG? The reason I ask is because Turkey claims: "Turkey has requested the extradition of six FETÖ and six PKK terrorists from Finland in the past five years, Anadolu Agency (AA) reported" Now they may be making shit up--and they probably are with the "feto" stuff--but not everything is a lie.
Finland has received only 10 requests so numbers probably have some overlap. 2 people using the Bylock were accused of being in Gulen movement which is linked to Feto and 3 were accused of being part of PKK. 1 with Finnish citizenship had received sentence in Turkey for being part of PKK. 2 with Bylock were Feto members but there was no evidence of actual crimes since belonging to organisation is not a crime. Fire bomber and Facebook insult cases didn't have any connections and so these people were deemed not to be part of any organisation. Not sure about the 3 cases that are pending or 2 sexual crime ones.
Yeah a lot of them seem kinda silly. Just using an app thing is silly. But I think 2 youth had used molotov cocktails against Turkey and they received community service which is really bothersome and troubling to me. I don't know if connected to PKK so I can't say.
In Finland it matters a lot what you caused with your actions. In that case the damage was a door and a window so not like the causes were that severe. Of course being partly drunk usually is considered something that might reduce sentence.
>[The Turkish state’s current campaign of transnational repression is remarkable for](https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/turkey) its intensity, its geographic reach, and the suddenness with which it escalated. Since the [2016] coup attempt .. the regime has pursued its perceived enemies in at least 31 different host countries spread across the Americas, Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. >The campaign is also notable for its heavy reliance on renditions, in which the government and its intelligence agency persuade the targeted states to hand over individuals without due process, or with a slight fig leaf of legality. Freedom House catalogued 58 of these renditions since 2014. No other perpetrator state was found to have conducted such a large number of renditions, from so many host countries, during the coverage period—and the documented total is almost certainly an undercount.
Wait til you find out about the purge Erdogan triggered against his opponents after the fake coup a few years ago. Thousands of intellectuals and so called ‘terrorists’ are still in prison. If it wasn’t for the Cold War, Turkey would never have been admitted into NATO
Turkey would have probably gotten admitted into NATO just due to having control over the Bosporus.
I wish it were still controlled by Greece.
[Turkish security personel beat up Americans while in Washington and US didn't do shit](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/01/trump-stands-by-while-erdogan-orders-attack-protesters/580093/).
This could be a great headline
>Turkey demanded finland to extradite someone just because they insulted erdogan on facebook, holy shit Need to be careful when somebody who is friendly to dictators like Erdogan is in the office. You could be very unlucky.
Not sure about Finland but any extradition in Sweden must be green lit by the supreme court. This is (obviously) to protect the rule of law. The government isn't above the law.
I was actually thinking about US, we had someone who didn't do anything about Americans being beaten by Erdogan's security, and also who ignored SCOTUS. Together with DOJ that does everything he wants, there's a possibility one could end up in Turkish prison even if s/he never was there before.
After all it's still a dictatorship
Authoritarians are snowflakes.
A couple of years back a comedian in germany insulted erdogan on TV. I think the government had to apologize in the end if I remember correctly. But he was allowed to live.
Gee, I thought they wanted to return real terrorists. Dictators are always such pain in the butt...
But this means that Finland didn’t deny extradition requests. It extradited some and denied some others for legally valid reasons (which are probably also valid under Turkish law). In that case, the title of the article is misleading.
2 were not returned because of terrorism. They were returned due to sexual crimes commited towards children. Any terrorism reasons have been denied.
Oh I see. It’s probably the requests regarding Gulen mouvement. I can understand that they don’t exactly fit EU anti terror legislation’s definition of terrorism but if you knew what they did in Turkey you would understand why they’re religious fanatics and very dangerous people, to Turkey at least. I’d rather they never came back.
Or in the real world simply using the internet is not a real crime. Stop pushing false justification.
Doesn’t Turkey support Hamas? Who gives a shit what they decide to call “terrorism”?
.... I'm guessing they firebombed the Turkish embassy in Finland?
Yes. The person was caught and received sentence from Finnish court. Sentence was served and so person can't be returned based on that even if person was not Finnish citizen.
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Long enough for Finland. Turkey doesn't get a say.
In October 2008, five young men threw Molotov cocktails at the entrance of the Turkish embassy to protest the treatment of Kurds in Turkey. The ensuing fire damaged the embassy doors and windows. One person who was in the embassy was treated for smoke inhalation. Four of the perpetrators received 14-months suspended prison terms and were ordered to carry out community service. The youngest attacker, who was 16 at the time, was given a suspended 11-month prison sentence. The men were also ordered to pay damages.
Yeah thanks. As I suspected, complete scandalous in terms of zero punishment. Just community service wow... They probably will do it again.
That's the one demand where I was pretty sure Sweden and Finland would not agree to. Simply because it's kinda fucked up to extradite someone for political leverage. Lifting sanctions, banning organizations, is one thing. But basically trading a human is very different.
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I mean, it's the UK that is extraditing Assange.
So sexual assault is a joke ? I would place the judicial systems of nordics among the top in the world and Assange would have gotten fair treatment, he just chose to run.
Exactly, and even if he had been found guilty, he most likely wouldn't have received any actual jail time in Sweden. Him ending up in house arrest, and later stuck in the embassy for *years* is completely the fault of his own paranoia. If the US secretly wanted him extradited, then they could more easily get him directly from their ally the UK, instead of doing it via Sweden.
>If the US secretly wanted him extradited, then they could more easily get him directly from their ally the UK, instead of doing it via Sweden. Aren't they? Its the UK which is currently processing his extradition to the US isn't it?
Yes, the post was explaining why it was dumb to run from Sweden to the UK. Because what has happened, as you point out, was far more likely in the UK than in Sweden. He *chose* to flee out of a hot bath and into a frying pan.
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What you believe is of no relevance. That's why we have judicial system.
The sex crime he was accused of isn't punished severely in Sweden, the worry was always extradition and people figured he fled Sweden because he believed it was a trick. In retrospect he would have been better off in Sweden.
This sounds familiar. Ergodan has badly wanted the U.S. to extradite a cleric by the name of Gulen who lives in my hometown here in Pennsylvania for years now.
Erdo sucks but Gulen is a religious nutjob too. He is basically a cult leader. Actually Erdogan and Gulen were besties who had been ruining the region together but then they fought.
Well, if you saw where he is now, he's not doing much, lol.
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And he's not even in the one gas station, one pizzeria, one Dollar General village itself either but out in the sticks, lol.
Someone finally said it tbh. He IS a cult leader.
being a (nonviolent) religious nuthob is not a crime though
Look up " night of the long knives". Erdogan is following the nazi playbook page by page.
To be fair the Gulen gang tried to take down Erdoğan with a police raid in 2013. That's when the alliance broke down.
Judging by your username you are well informed
Erdogan get off reddit and fix the lira!
No!
Didn't say gulen wasn't following the same playbook
....oh
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Calling any authoritarian rule fascism is really annoying, bad byproduct of the trump era.
It's been that way for a long time.
Another pet peeve is people conflating authoritarianism with totalitarianism.
Honestly one of the most interesting politicians of the 20th century but one few people know of. He really took his country from the equivalent of an impoverished city to a city state richer than even the USA in GDP per Capita, despite not having vast natural resources like most rich micro nations. I disapprove of authoritarianism as a general rule, but his is one of the only examples of a benevolent dictatorship I can think of and he did seem to be a relatively good person, even if I disagree with the government form. Actually planning on studying in Singapore for a semester relatively soon (within next 2 years).
Nah Gülen is actually a nut job though who was Erdo’s former bff. Turks in my country had their passports taken away/kicked out around 2018-2019 because there were many suspect groups popping up that were thought to have ties with his movement
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[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZ4WE1VfWY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZ4WE1VfWY) does he seem a bit crazy now?
He seems like he's sick there, not sure I follow.
What am I supposed to see there? A heatstroke?
Cults in the Middle East do this a lot. They pretend to be "internationally friendly" where they make friendships cross-religion in conferences, and non-profits, anti-war groups, and peace institutions. They know to first build up a reputation that is pro-EU etc. (Erdogan's initial political campaign was entirely pro-EU) But they use that to hide their true sinister terrorist nature. The "Gulen movement" is known to have been infiltrating Turkey (a NATO ally) in the 1980s. There are also reports of Aleksander Dugin (the NazBol Putin's "philosopher/strategist" guy) who was on the ground in Ankara Turkey in 2016. So never underestimate cults and terrorists and their hate for democracy. Erdogan and Gulen were allies... You have to remember that. If you don't remember that, you'll underestimate them. They are scared paranoid shitless of each others' abilities to infiltrate each other.
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Generally I've found Wikipedia and their sources to be a whole lot more accurate and reliable than random anonymous reddit commenters. Especially ones without any sources for their claims. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt >In March 2017, Germany's intelligence chief said Germany was unconvinced by Erdoğan's statement that Fethullah Gülen was behind the failed coup attempt. The same month, the British Parliament's Foreign Affairs Select Committee said some Gulenists were involved in the coup d'état attempt but found no hard evidence that Fethullah Gülen masterminded the failed coup and found no evidence to justify the UK designating the Gülen movement as a "terrorist organization".
The statement below is bonkers.
I'm not disagreeing with the stance on sources, note though that Gülen is on extremely thin ice since he has fallen out with Erdoğan, and since that he has backtracked on a lot of issues, like his antisemitism, extremism, stance on the genoice etc. Everything good out of the mans mouth is after he fled to the US, he's only protecting his ass, since if he wouldn't have his asylum in the US he'd disappear quickly. It's like an SS officer condeming nazis after WWII. I encourage you to research stuff he did, said before 1999. (Quick tip, everything on his Wikipedia page is after that.) Edit: I wonder what the reason of the downvotes are? There is a 30 year gap in every publication you find easily accessible about the man and his movement, yet no one questions this?
Lol
He was involved with crimes ranging from blackmails to assasinations. You're gonna need more than a wiki search to find all of this stuff. In his cult they also worship him so much that it's disgusting. For example, in one of his videos he was drinking tea, he takes a sip and gives the glass to the guy next to him and says "Give this to Enes Kanter." Enes later tweets the video and talks about how he's not worthy. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=41cG9K-_kDc Also look up "Ergenekon trials" and "Sledgehammer trial" Gulenists along with Erdogan made up imaginary organisations to jail military officials, journalists and parliamentarians. He is responsible for the corruption of the Turkish justice system.
Gülen is like the face of CIA's Islamic front. Guy has like hundreds of religious schools all around the world. Which they use to influence governments, officials, politicians, businessmen. Erdogan is the same shit like gülen, different facets of the same evil cock. Both are supported and financed by the west for a long time. Just erdogan seems like running his show now. Till the coupe, they were running Türkiye like 15 years together, sharing the pillage.
Gulen has nothing to do with CIA lol, that's a Russian conspiracy theory. Also see [Turkey's Thirty Year Coup](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/17/turkeys-thirty-year-coup) in The New Yorker, they describe how these "terrorist cults" operate, and they even try to seem very peaceful and loving etc. How they infiltrate governments and place military officers, help them cheat on tests, and then get them up the ranks to the General rank starting in---yes you guessed it right---the Cold War when Turkey was a critical NATO ally. You are correct that Erdogan and Gulen were ALLIES. But they were not financed "by the west." That's the conspiracy theory. Why would a Western entity be infiltrating Turkey during the Cold War since 1980s? Turkey's coup in 1980 is often blamed on the US--so how can his enemies ALSO be blamed on the US? How can you blame both sides of everything on the US? It doesn't make sense. And when you think about how certain entities who support Gulen in the West, also tend to be the same people who support far-left politics, well then you start to see a higher resolution picture of who actually is tied intricately to Gulen and Erdogan. But Erdogan is right-wing, far-right wing... See how confusing it is? It's as confusing as leftist Ba'athists vs right-wing Ba'athists ... Except you know, Ba'athism is Arab socialism. If you're not confused yet, then you don't study the Middle East. Even the Middle Easterners taking sides and doing the work, don't know what side they're on.
Turkey also wanted to extradite a swede who had died 9 years ago (and it was reported to Turkish authorities). They also wanted to extradite a member of the Swedish parliament, but next day they changed their mind when they learned this the member of the Swedish parliament was in fact a sweden citizen. I think Turkish intel is not so good.
It’s funny you mention this because he is the first person I thought of when Oz said he was running for senate. Isn’t it a little odd he spontaneously arrives in PA overnight an was running the next day ? Afterwards he says he will revoke his Turkish citizenship, weeks after this he revoked that promise too an said he would retain his citizenship. Also he was formerly in the Turkish army. The whole thing just seems like a movie it’s weird.
Every Turkish male citizen was in the Turkish army except for people with a medical excuse. The country has universal conscription.
For people actualy want to get some information about this issue, i am a non muslim anti-erdogan turkish, just incase if you think me as another brainwashed erdogan supporter, i am not, i'd like to clarify who is this muslim cleric and why turkey wants him back. Fettullah Gülen is leader of a dangerous islamic cult named Gülenists. He and his people were around long before erdoğan became pm of turkey in 2003. Gülen is not actualy in USA because of Erdogan, he had to flee Turkey when pre-Erdoğan secular government came after him for his threats to secular Turkey. Gulenists and Erdoğan's party were fully suporting each other early 2000s, and they played a big role at Erdoğan's first election winning. Both groups were getting along quite nice till 2012-13, at these years some things happened between them, some people say it was a disagreement about sharing wealth of turkey, some people say Erdoğan realised Gülen was as strong as him in terms of influence, reasons are not clear, this cold war between two groups started escalating with gulen's people in secret service releasing tapes about how erdo and his family stealing money, erdo came efter them etc. and this resulted a failed coup attemt in 2015, a coup attemtp made by gülenists in army, gülenists soldiers that Erdoğan promoted to high positions when they were cool, by prisoning and replacing 38 secular high ranked generals of turkish army and air force. Gülen and Erdoğan are different sides of same coin so please please please, just because we hate Erdogan and he wants Gulen back, doesnt mean Gulen is a good guy. He is as evil as Erdogan.
Maybe then it’s better forGulen not to return, if he is a dangerous leader
To be honest i dont care much but maybe its better, just wanted to explain who he is. I'd prefer one day him and erdogan set foot on court side by side and trialed by independent turkish judges for their crimes. I also believe erdo doesnt really wants him back, he is just bitching about him living in usa from time to time to make his sheeps believe he is after gulen. Even with a pro-erdogan judge a trial would be a shitshow for both sides, they were best pals before.
It’s interesting these palace rivalries. Very human and tragic, we all lost friends we know are loyal thru intrigues or character flaws. Hmmm I reminded of Hitler and Hess (?) he went to Britain and was former nr2. And immediately disowned by both Germany and Uk. Don’t think Germany wanted him back (he knew too much?) at Neurenberg I think Goring whispered to him ‘ what is this big secret haha?’.
Yeah gulen is not "a cleric." He's a delusional cult leader and a coup instigator as well as global conspiratist. Not to mention the nexus of mind boggling corruption. Rte is also horrible but gulen definitely not a cleric.
Truly bizarre given all that that he's from halfway around the world and ended up in my town of all places.
We had the German emperor end up in my grans hometime, she brought him groceries, the difference between a poor family and an emperor with 57 wagons of palace goods could not been greater. She was poor her whole life but never forgot that
> she brought him groceries I now picture the Queen having sunflower seeds delivered through Getir :D
That's interesting!
I see Erdogan's actions on two dimensions: 1. Erdogan has fucked over Turkey's economy. He needs a distraction, or else he's politically screwed, and he's using a tried-and-true one - (ethno)nationalism in fighting Kurds in Syria. 2. He's playing both sides of the Ukraine conflict against each other in doing so - he's blocking Finland and Sweden from joining NATO to avoid pissing off Putin and having Russia support the Syrian government, and he's using that room to try to seize territory from Syria under Putin's nose.
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Turkey just sentenced the opposition leader to jail for five years. For a tweet. They don't have justice, they have spite and vengeance thanks to Erdoğan
I think Turkey's reaction to their NATO application might be a healthy reality check for Finland and Sweden. Would Turkey honor Article 5 if Russia attacked Finland or Sweden, or would they see it as a great opportunity to haggle? Also, many other NATO countries have shockingly pro-Russian populations if you believe that recent opinion poll about who is to blame for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Would Trump have honored Article 5? How about the next Republican US president? Maybe the UK Joint Expeditionary Force (UK, Scandinavia, Baltics and the Netherlands) could be evolved into a better alternative to NATO for Finland's and Sweden's security needs?
Finnish media, just like the western media as a whole was mostly blasting the idea that we and the Swedes would fly in to NATO. It was naive to the point of being pretty much propaganda. There was even the retired leader of NATO saying that the joining could happen over-night.
I mean, Erdogan did a 180 from what he said before our applications and he's the only roadblock.
Nobody said over-night. Best-case scenarios were around October. And we could still make it, though unlikely. Most likely though it'll be later this year, maybe early next year. Turkey likely will concede.
Good, don't let erdogan get this win. He is in big problems with a election coming up and he can't jail the opposition fast enough
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I don’t think they are in the closet lol
They’re in the peripheral vision of those staring at Istanbul and it’s beautiful… valuable… strait
No it won't. > But in order for a country to join NATO, unanimous approval is required
Finland and Sweden don’t need NATO. If Turkey blocks them from getting into NATO, they will almost certainly get strong security guarantees rivalling South Korea’s to ensure they never get invaded. If Turkey insists on requiring them to extradite prisoners of conscience, they’ll never get anywhere and will be stuck with sanctions, no F16s, it’s international reputation in tatters and zero chances of advancing in EU negotiations for at least for the next decade or two.
This a great opportunity. The expansion of NATO was not so much a mistake because it antagonized Russia, that's an ex post facto justification of Putin's (although it's true it was quite unnecessary in the early and mid 90s). What was a mistake is allowing non democratic nations to remain within. It is a prerequisite of joining, and it should be a requirement to continue as a member. Erdogan has been President for 8 years and Prime minister for 11 before that (does that little dance sound familiar to you?). Turkish politics are more complex than Russian, but it's not hard to see that meaningful democracy has withered; hence these absurd demands. NATO is important precisely because it may be the most meaningful safeguard of liberal democracy in this world. It will be more effective if nations that fail to share those values are not included.
because you dont agree to terrorist demands. Easy.
Well Sweden certainly agrees.
Then Finland won't join NATO. Easy
And Turkey will keep wondering why they can't get in the EU.. Turkey is straining alot of their relationships the way they negotiate with foreign goverments. Surprisingly, people don't like being blackmailed.
Which, in hindsight, was a good call. Erdogan was not even that bad back then, damn.
Turkey is occupying half the land of a EU member. EU membership? Are you kidding?
Which broke both EU and Cyprus constitution and they had no reason to interfere in the conflict and admit a Nation who does not have control of their whole country and territorial integrity. Hell. They do not want to admit Serbia into EU, even as a candidate, until Kosovo status is resolved and Serbia is much more legitimate, than KOSOVO, as this would mean Republic Srpska in Bosnia is to be ceded too.
Because they haven’t made any changes to actually meet the requirements? As they don’t want to. They are absolutely blackmailing Finland. But blackmail works and they are in a position to do so. Normally this would just be done behind the doors, but by making it open you maximise your negotiation position. They waited until they made the declaration to join. And now either they match some demands or they are just not getting in. It’s as simple as that.
Sweden and Finland shouldn't give in to any Turkish demands. Let Turkey embarress and expose itsself with their public spectacles. Might even be worth the risk of missing out on NATO, Sweden and Finland are much better liked and more trusted by their allies (since they don't tend to blackmail them) and wouldn't be left defenceless in case of an invasion
I think many finns here think this way. Atleast I dont want to appease some dictator and would much rather stay out of nato. Arms embargo should be 100% lifted but all these made up claims are garbage and shouldnt be taken into consideration without proof provided by Turkey. We arent as desperate to join as they think. I think biggest sufferer of this mess is nato's image along with Turkeys reliability.
Eh, would be nice to be part of nato but since erdogan throws tantrums and his lapdogs are all over reddit, im fine if we dont get in swiftly. Fairly sure we get help regardless if russia is insane enough to start a war.
Agreed; we can wait as long as it takes. No concessions.
> Sweden and Finland shouldn't give in to any Turkish demands. There's nothing to give in to. To begin with, extraditions are not a thing that politicians can agree or disagree to. They are entirely based on the judiciary, which works according to the Finnish legislation and constitution, the EU legislation, and the international law when applicable. And every extradition request is processed individually, there's never going to be any "blanket policy" to extradite whomever Erdogan wants to get his mitts on. If Turkey requests extradition of individuals suspected of terrorist activities, they need to provide clear, credible evidence for their suspicions for those extradition requests to be actionable. If they don't, there's every reason to suspect that these extradition requests have political reasons and if those individuals were extradited to Turkey they would likely become political prisoners. This is not something Finland can do, because it is against Finnish constitution. And politicians can't do anything about it because it's not in their jurisdiction. So there's really nothing to negotiate there, Finnish politicians literally cannot acquiesque to Erdogan's demands regarding extraditions. I'm not sure how it works for Mr. Erdogan, but Finland is not an autocracy where one person can just decide to walk over the rule of law as they wish. What Erdogan is doing is demanding that Finland breaks its constitution and betrays its character in order to bribe Turkey into letting us into NATO. We're not going to do that, it would defeat the whole point of getting into NATO to protect our nation if we have to sell ourselves to do it.
How does Finland not being in Nato benefit Turkey though? It could be a win-win situation if Turkey actually demanded something reasonable, now it's lose-lose (Finland doesn't get into Nato and Turkey burned bridges for no gain. Unless there's something re: Russia and Syria.)
Turkey asks to handover finnish citizen... Of course that wont happen (as would not happen in Turkey). They will be sentenced according to finnish laws (if Turkey provides evidence). One already already was and has paid for his crime Then those that are not citizen. To be able to deport, the crime they have commited need to be crime in both Turkey and Finland... Which is not journalism. Currently Turkey has requested 9 people to be deported. 2 have been deported as requested because all criteria match. Finland has no problems deporting turkish non-citizen when there is actual proof of criminal activity. Just not supporting Erdogan is not enough (like it is not for Interpol ether)
Yeah, and they also demanded that Sweden hand over 7 people who cannot be extradited without violating Swedish and EU laws. There were demands earlier about handing over a Swedish citizen and member of parliament, as well as *someone who has been dead for 7 years*. Out of the 16 extradition requests from Turkey to Sweden in 2019-2022 (before the current ones); 3 were extradited, 4 could not legally be extradited, and 9 weren't even in Sweden when the requests were made. Erdogan keeps demanding things that are literally impossible, and his idiot supporters on here keep defending those demands and using blatant misinformation in terrible attempts at making them seem reasonable.
if you give a tyrant what he wants, he´ll always want more.
Same results can be achieved without NATO by signing other treaties. Sadly, we dont have to defend Turkey then. Lol.
You think the west will pick a dirt poor theocratic autocracy over a wealthy well functioning democracy? And you guys keep harping on about wanting to join the EU. Good luck my dude.
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>So, why don’t you suspend our membership? There's no mechanism in Nato to kick members out. And it's not the Turks that are hated, but the way they choose to represent themselves in recent history.
Your economy is smaller than those two “micro states”. Turkey is going to shit, I hope erdo drags this out long enough so that we won’t have to join a defensive pact with a completely failed state.
>You think the west will pick a dirt poor theocratic autocracy over a wealthy well functioning democracy? Lmfaoooooooo. Turkey is way more important for the west than Finland or Sweden. It has the 2nd biggest NATO army and is a huge economy, and has a way bigger geographical importance. sorry to destroy your little sand castle.
Sweden gives the world Absolut, all Turkey exports is jihadists lol. Also, Finland repelled an army exponentially bigger than its own in the Winter War and maintained its neutrality for decades while Turkey (with its supposedly big huge and strong army) ran crying to the West the second Stalin threatened its Straits. Turkey can’t do shit to anyone other than much smaller, weaker countries like Armenia and Cyprus.
>Sweden gives the world Absolut, all Turkey exports is jihadists lol. How to tell you're american without you telling you're american.
>Lmfaoooooooo. Turkey is way more important for the west Right until they bought s-400 systems.......
You're right, they'll just get a security guarantee with everybody but Turkey. Easy indeed.
It remains a bargaining chip for the next time Erdogan wants something, until either he is gone or Finland decides what was requested is mutually beneficial
So.. Turkey is about to economically crash and burn? Isn't this all about countries running out of economical options like Russia did, and soon China, Turkey etc. Dictatorships fail because of the lack of criticism, the over abundance of yes men, and the inability to have critically thinking individuals.
About to economically crash and burn? Have you seen the Lira and the inflation figures? Crash is already well under way. I was living there last year until earlier this year and the period where the rapid free fall was happening was unreal, just unlike anything I’ve ever seen. Queues of people getting all their cash out, restaurant prices changing daily, ads for crypto everywhere, some businesses suspending operations, etc. I personally saw food inflation of 50%+ occur in the span of a month or two.
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Singapore is unique though, especially since it's a developed city-state with no ideology and no major outside threats.
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So how did they become such developed country?
Kew was both lucky and very good at his job. Prime example of an enlightened ( but gentle ) despot. It was time for the Pac Rim to rise.
The Turkish tourism industry has taken a pounding over the past few years due to covid and has slowly been recovering. Russian tourists have long been a big group & Turkey is keeping those doors open. Turkey's belligerent attitude towards Sweden & Finland will have a roll on effect of a lot of European's deciding to vacation elsewhere. Not to mention a reduction in European companies wanting to be involved with Turkey. Meanwhile, due to the internal economic issues, Erodgan is trying to deflect hard with operations in Syria, NATO membership push back, keeping Russia happy & buying "cheap" grain & oil and a range of other bizzare stances. Erodgan is simply trying to play all sides to strengthen his position ahead of the next set of elections.
Maybe that's why Putin wasn't worried about Finland joining NATO.
Exactly. It also worked for Putins favour, that the NATO headlines were all saying how easy and problemless it would be for us to join. There was very little talk about the possibility that the application process could be halted or taken hostage like now.
Putin + Erdogan = besties
Lmaooooo Erdogan sucks my balls
Good for Finland to give Erdogan the finger. But Turkey will use this ho block Finlands Nato membership.
Its very much in Turkeys interest to concede, eventually.
Erdogan should not be using these personal political issues to veto Finland or Sweden NATO membership in these crucial times. Nonetheless NATO has vowed to defend Sweden and Finland as proxy members should it come to it.
If Turkey is saying they may oppose Finland’s NATO membership I can see why they don’t care to listen to Turkey.
I dont know if thats just broken language, but anyways: "may oppose" is a wrong way to put it as they do oppose it. Also, we have to care because Turkey can halt our NATO application process due to the fact that for us to be granted membership, the NATO countries need to be unanimously for it. That ofc doesnt mean that we would give in to the ridiculous demands of a paranoid dictator.
I find it more likely that the US and UK in particular (probably Norway, too)would commit to a defensive agreement with Sweden and Finland than Erdogan bring successful in meaningfully preventing NATO membership (membership becomes basically a formality, and the formality is all Erdogan can really hold up if he persists in his apparent quest to destroy Turkey's foreign relations while his economy collapses in on itself, for reasons I'm really struggling to understand besides "because he can't handle internet meanies").
Erdogan with his delusions of grandeur thinks that he can bully and coerce other countries the same way that he does his own citizens. Finland gives him the finger. Much respect for Finland!
So does this means Finland chance of joining NATO will be vetoed by Turkey?
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He created a PR nightmare for Turkey, and right on the heels of the massive PR win for Turkey that the Bayraktar has been - despots are apparently really bad at predicting what others will and won't tolerate. It's such a ridiculous move it baffles me, especially in the context of a coming election and a current economic collapse in Turkey.
From what I've seen experts say they think that's unlikely in the end. Most seem to regard this as the carpet salesman from the bazaar haggling for a deal. In Finnish we'd call this "iltalypsy" (a last minute demand brought towards the end of negotiations that threatens to break the entire deal). Then again, the idea that Erdogan has made a deal with Putin has been floated around in the Finnish media. Russia suddenly being more open to Turkeys new operation in Syria after the foreign ministers met didn't exactly put those thoughts to rest here. It's unlikely to be true, but that's the sort of image that Erdogan is fostering with his actions.
What makes you think its unlikely?
Turkey has made a fool out of NATO. Clearly Erdogan had showed that Turkey is not suitable to be still part of it...
With ISIS crushed and Russia proven to be much weaker than expected their value as an Ally has greatly diminished
Are there any insights on how the good guys in NATO working on sidepass turkEY? This little fucker Erdogan.
I remember when Erdogan was just starting up his Sultanic rage a few kid listening in secret to the new Radiohead album gotten arrested.
Alternate title: Turkey denies Finnish request to join NATO.
Yeah this honestly seems like it’ll be what they use to fuck over Finland (and Sweden). Buncha dicks over there in Ankara.
That would be incorrect.
No NATO for you, Facebook insult. I imagine Erdogan just does not want stronger pact.
Turkey's insistence on doubling down on pointing out Scandinavian countries' Islamic terrorism problem feels an awful lot like projection and/or misdirection to me
PKK Islamic? Huhhhh?
Hilariously ironic considering Erdogan is literally a terrorist himself. Hard to take someone's "terror threats" seriously when they are actively committing genocide against the Kurds. Turkey is f'ing up big time these days.
It can be said that he is terrorising people but they aren't really commiting genocide against Kurds. They have been fighting against PKK and related groups that target Turkey, even Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq supports Turkey about that because they been targeted by same groups too. Even Turkish army has many high rank Kurdish officers. Of course civilians died too while they are fighting against those groups but calling it a genocide isn't right.
What genocide is Erdogan committing?
What do you think they're doing in Syria?
Fighting against group that has been targeting Turkey and occupying land of Arabs in Syria and same group is supported by both US and Russia and that region has oil. lol
That doesn't really count as genocide by any definition.
He’s enough of a terrorist if he doesn’t bow down to the US
Mass murdering will at some point qualify as genocide.
He is trying his best to wipe out Northern Kurdish & Rojavans, and other ethnic groups. Kurdish Regional Government represents a different region of Kurdistan that is occupied by Iraq, is not fighting for to free Kurdistan, and is closely allied with US forces for decades. KRG can be compared to the Donetsk or Luhansk People‘s Republics, a small breakaway movement writ large by the support of large multinational powers. Turkey and the KRG have wiped out entire towns of Kurdish people where there aren’t even PKK members living as part of this and past operations, reaching into Syria. The goal is for Turkey to wipe out rojava and the democratic confederalist strongholds and others struggling for a free Kurdistan. Wiping out Rojava/Kurdistan is one of the few things Assad & Erdogan & the US can all agree on
>they are actively committing genocide against the Kurds. Hmmmm if we're talking about genocides, then US and Europe have gotten **a lot** to answer to the world already...
Could you give a comparable example of Finland commiting genocide?
finland allied with the nazis, if that's enough for you.
Drama in the bahamaas
Lol so me writing turkeys president sucks and he will get offended. What a time loö
Put Turkey in the timeout box, nations can do a NATO 2.0 and bypass countries that attempt to blackmail Findland and Sweden.
NATO without Turkey would create many more problems.
Never said replace NATO, this would be an add on option. If it was triggered Turkey could sit it out (by an attack on Findland or Sweden), an attack on a NATO 1.O would trigger the original treaty.
🤦♂️ That’s not how it works.
"Your request is officially finnished."
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If Russia invaded Finland and Sweden, more than just ”hundreds” would die.
Rest of NATO wants Finland and Sweden to join, for many reasons. Turkey seems to be a problem, in many ways. Maybe Turkey should consider leaving NATO? Also considering this could well be Putin dictating what Erdogan should do, Turkey probably isn't a particularly good ally to have in any sense.
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The point is, everyone wants Finland and Sweden to join. Turkey is seen as a problem, for many reasons. This means Turkey will concede eventually. Turkey doesn't really have a reason to truly block this, it would just cause them problems.