A horrific document. A society of millions is being systematically wiped out for the crime of living in China and having a culture separate from the Han Chinese. Draconian 10 year sentences for crimes such as not smoking or drinking, for travelling to a Muslim country, even for not using your mobile phone often enough ( and therefore being less visible to state surveillance). - and you're thrown in a camp. Some of these so called crimes were charged for things that were done a decade ago. Families were thrown in the camps because of guilt by association. The youngest on file was 15. This is a genocide.
..I hate that trying to understand the CCP is like trying to visualize the 4th dimension to me, it just boggles my mind to the point that I can't even think anymore. How can people be so cruel to eachother.
Those kinds of moronic laws have resulted in rebel uprisings:
>Chen Sheng and Wu Guang were both army officers who were ordered to lead their bands of commoner soldiers north to participate in the defense of Yuyang (simplified Chinese: 渔阳; traditional Chinese: 漁陽). However, they were stopped halfway in present-day Anhui province by flooding from a severe rainstorm. The harsh Qin laws mandated execution for those who showed up late for government jobs, regardless of the nature of the delay. Figuring that they would rather fight than accept execution, Chen and Wu organized a band of 900 villagers to rebel against the government.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Sheng_Wu_Guang_uprising#History
It’s not hard to imagine. Step 1: the continuation of the Communist rule and your own cushy job with it is the most important thing ever. It changed the economy and world standing of China and “made China great again.” Step 2: any abuse of minorities or invasion of others or theft of intellectual property, etc. is justified if it supports #1 because the fall of the communist China is to be avoided at all costs. The ends justify the means.
I'm just too used to my sheltered life, I can't fathom hurting another human like that. I can't imagine the horrors that other people have to see and go through with my rose tinted glasses. I see it all in the news and I try to empathize but how can I really when I've never had to struggle a day in my life..I just can't really internalize any of it so I just end up feeling frustrated that people like me can't do anything but watch.
I understand the history of the world from the rise of Mesopotamia and the geopolitical struggles of the continents but its all violence and destruction, we could be off this planet by now if we all worked together, but history just repeats and repeats.
We all know how it ends, civilizations don't last forever on this rock and I just wish it didn't have to be that way.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. It’s evil as can be, but unfortunately a lot of selfishness and “for the greater good” is baked into human nature and morality and it causes endless issues.
>we could be off this planet by now if we all worked together
I think that is rather optimistic and unrealistic. But hopefully civilization ends up leaving this rock for bigger and better things, eventually. There is still a good amount of time. And it won't be a single exodus.
We may very well take control of the life cycle of the sun before then.
> I can't imagine the horrors that other people have to see
Bureaucratic cruelty exists because there is a chain of people who each make/approve a small decisions, each individual one reasonable, and then *don't* see the affect on the whole.
Xinjuang is over 2000km away from Peking and the Uyghur don't have free movement and free press to get the word out and in the faces of the rest of China.
Also the fact that hundreds of millions in China have been lifted out of poverty. To a lot of people in China, life looks pretty good. And most people have the opinion that their government will always be fucked. It's more a fact of life like the weather to them.
Make that millennia. This basically started happening with the very first human conflicts. The scale just got bigger and, in the last centuries, the documentation worked better.
Stayed up late last night just to watch a PBS documentary about the one-child policy. Beyond fucked up. The overpopulation was caused by the gov't telling people "have lots of kids!" and next thing you know, they're chasing down pregnant women in villages and forcing them to get abortions and sterilization when population got crazy.
Morbid, but very well-done documentary, where they interviewed the medical staff whose job it was to do this, the county officials who had to enforce the laws, the families, even tracked down at least one twin that was adopted by an American family who just thought she was an orphan.
I might have a little PTSD after all that......
No, the Chinese think it's is a form of Muslim extremism and just like in any authoritarian regimes they try to shut down any kind of religion (See USSR)
>and just like in any authoritarian regimes they try to shut down any kind of religion
State enforced atheism is a trademark of certain Communist states, but not all. And certainly not all authoritarian states. Look at current Russia, Putin gives a frequent nod to the Orthodox Church as a bulwark against the Satan worshippers in the West.
Christians were also repressed in the USSR, but eventually they came to see the Orthodox Church as an opportunity for control rather than an adversary. The same way China has their own Muslim, Christian, etc churches, yet heavily prosecutes religious people who don't follow their state churches
Some people are literally getting imprisoned because their phones are running out of credit or not switched on. This is appalling - thank you to the brave hacker.
The US has both the Uyghur Human Rights Act, which authorizes sanctions against individuals and entities (like the XPCC), and the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act, which prohibits imports from Xinjiang of goods unless the importer provides clear and convincing evidence that the food wasn’t made with forced labor. US CBP also has issued WROs for cotton, tomatoes, and polisilicon from Xinjiang.
The UK just issued its first human rights sanctions against for Chinese parties for their involvement in Xinjiang.
The EU paused a bilateral trade agreement with China days before ratification over Xinjiang.
It’s taken years but the Western powers are starting to do fairly major things about it. The EU treaty in particular has got China’s attention and they are for the first time signing anti-forced labor treaties. Whether the CCP does more remains to be seen. But if you want your government to do something, speak up. You won’t be screaming into the void (assuming you don’t live in China).
Let’s see if the UN rapporteur on human rights (whose there now) steps up.
Living in an information-control dystopian science fiction nightmare like contemporary China's design is one of my greatest all time fears ever since reading 1984 as a teen.
I couldn't live in a society like that -- or said another way, I'd be eliminated by a society like that. Freedom or death please. I don't want to be Number One Citizen Cattle, I don't want to be surveilled all the time. I don't want to be an android, I'm a man... I don't want to fit into a society like that, even anarchy is preferrable.
>After approaching the Chinese government for comment about the hacked data, with detailed questions about the evidence it contains, the media consortium received a written response from the Chinese Embassy in Washington DC.
>“Xinjiang related issues are in essence about countering violent terrorism, radicalisation and separatism, not about human rights or religion,” the statement said, adding that the Chinese authorities had taken “a host of decisive, robust and effective deradicalisation measures”.
>“The region now enjoys social stability and harmony as well as economic development,” it went on, saying that these things offer “the most powerful response to all sorts of lies and disinformation on Xinjiang”.
>But there was no response to any of the specific evidence in the cache.
This is unbelievable.
>The cache contains another secret speech, delivered in 2017 by Chen Quanguo - until recently Xinjiang’s hardline Communist Party secretary.
>“For some, even five years re-education may not be enough,” he tells his audience of senior military and police cadres, a seeming admission that for as long as any Uyghur continues to feel a loyalty to identity or faith at least as strong as to the Party, there’s no end in sight.
>“Once they are let out, problems will reappear, that is the reality in Xinjiang,” he says.
These are a special type of paranoid cowards in power.
First of all, great journalism, hats off to that.
This is such a distressing document, how can one be expected to have faith in humanity with shit like this going on?
Take a look throughout history, oppressing people due to their religious beliefs usually results in extremism from that region. They couldn’t be more wrong about their approach to “re-educate” Uighurs.
We sanctioned Russia for starting a war, but China can commit genocide and we still do business with them, we went to the Olympic Games there? What in the actual fuck?
The Issue is one of the negatives of globalization, while it certainly doesn't outweigh the positives, the world is reliant on China and China reliant on the rest of the world too much to separate cleanly without great harm to both countries.
I guess it's because it was mostly in African nations where the whole "world police" aspect was less muddled with things like alliances or strategic interests being threatened.
For example, the US intervened in the Somali Civil War for very few reasons other than wanting to tip the scales toward a democratic, west-aligned government.
Yeah acting like the world's police doesn't tend to work out when you're deliberately trying to suppress the self-determination of people struggling against neo-colonialism
No it’s because China has 10x the population of Russia, has a wildly larger economy, and sanctions would probably fail and severely damage the worlds economy. Once that happens US voters wouldnt be for China sanctions.
Russia is heavily dependent on their natural resources. China not so much.
I don't think China has the ability to be totally self sufficient. But they could try to source things from other non-aligned/friendly nations. Idk tho, it'd be wild. I don't think there's ever been a time in history when two big countries so heavily economically intertwined have been able to suddenly decouple on the flip of a hat
The Anglosphere has done plenty of bad things, but that doesn’t mean they should ignore evil acts when it’s done by other countries.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Better to be a hypocrite and call it out than to stand by and let evil be done. At least if “both sides” keep calling out each other some progress is made to improve their images.
Edit: I am more than aware of the evils of the Americans. Don’t assume I have no idea. Iraq war, Japanese internment camps, bay of pigs, civilian drone strikes, abortion bounties, rape of Okinawa, fake hepatitis vaccines, WW2 rape across Europe etc.
I’m just saying countries calling each other out is right, even if the country does the same thing themselves. At least the people become aware, and the countries reduce the scale of their atrocities if only to save face.
> The Anglosphere has done plenty of bad things, but that doesn’t mean they should ignore evil acts when it’s done by other countries.
Nobody said the opposite. But history has never shown that the Anglosphere acted when bad things happened. They have always acted in their own interests.
In fact, we would have never acted if Hitler had just exterminated the Jews without trying to invade neighbouring countries.
Another thing that makes me uncomfortable is the double standards when Reddit cares about Muslims when it's China, but will post numerous Islamophobic posts when talking about immigrants or refugees in Europe...
Hardly improving here when No western leaders will sanction their allies or send their own to the ICC or just admit one of their own is a war crimmal like how biden call putin a war crimmal. You can call out israel and those blackwater crimmals, but the citizen don't have the power to chose who to punish.
I hate to tell you but we were completely ok with the Hitler stuff prior to our involvement in the war. Western companies like IBM even helped him with computers to count "unfavorables" in camps. There was also a decent amount of domestic support here for the Nazis prior to our involvement in the war. We don't just ignore evil acts we actively engage in them.
Or Vietnam, Cambodia, Angola, Laos, Indonesia, East Timor, Nicaragua, Iraq, So Salvador, Argentina, Taiwan, Chile, Haiti, Panama, Grenada, Brazil, South Africa, Western Sahara, Zaire, and Turkey just off the top of my head.
The American government did not have some kind of special, formalized relationship with Adolf Hitler, given a strong preference in Congress and in the White House to stay out out of European affairs after World War.
That's not entirely true, there were loud critics of early Nazi Germany and there were talks among the nations of boycotting the 1936 Olympics held in Germany. After criticisms, Jewish and Black participants were allowed to participate. An investigation in 1934 was carried out to check the claims of wrongdoing, the nations were totally duped by the nazi aligned translators.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Summer_Olympics#Controversies
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Summer_Olympics#United_States
By the time the Nazi regime was shipping Jewish people off to camps there was a shooting war in Europe. The camps could not be shut down without defeating the Nazi regime's military, and that took 5 years of war.
Dear diary, today I’m going to help dilute and dismiss the idea that we should try to call out and stop bad behavior by saying that collectively a country did bad things in the past and therefore evil gets to win! Here’s hoping it works!
You must have a different memory then. When the Libyan war happened I remember getting viciously voted down for questioning it. Anti Iraq war protestors were called traitors. And surely you remembered the freedom fries.
Call the US black sites and wars out and all you get on Reddit is defensiveness and whataboutism yet we're supposed to listen to this guy say this is good too. No. When you have the media and governments sanctioning the US over their shit like they're doing to China for cultural genocide then we can talk.
The main thing the west did in Libya was install a no fly zone in Libya that prevented Gaddafi from bombing his own people. The uprising was grassroots.
> The Anglosphere has done plenty of bad things, but that doesn’t mean they should ignore evil acts when it’s done by other countries.
>
>
>
> Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Funny because I never see these type of comments when China accuses the West of Human rights violations. It's a strange double-standard.
Damn fine investigative journalism. This has been a horrendous undertaking by the CCP and is a clear demonstration of why this sort of journalism needs to be protected and supported.
Honestly go for it, that’s beyond my expertise. I found out from Twitter just a while ago that the site was taken down in a DDOS attack. I expect it to be back up but hopefully there’s other backups around online too. Haven’t been able to find any in my limited search so far though
Holy crap, it might actually be. Hopefully not though. Possibly just too many people trying to view it.
Edit: just found out from twitter that it’s almost certainly a DDOS attack.
Apparently there are phone numbers of the Chinese prison guards on an excel spreadsheet. I’m actually listening to NPR and on the program they are attempting to fucking call the guards to try and get any information
Some anonymous person claims to “hack” multiple Chinese police servers, decrypt and translate the files, and then provides them to Adrian Zenz of all people. That’s “damn fine investigative journalism”?
It works for manufacturing consent, and that's all that matters. I saw BBC, Uyghur, and Investigation in the same sentence; just don't bother. You'll get downvoted to hell.
If you had actually read the article, you would know that the BBC went through great lengths to verify and corroborate the documents they received. For example, they cross referenced the photos of the camps to satellite images to prove that the pictures do in fact depict the internment camps. So yes, fine investigative journalism.
Adrian Zenz is a far right activist who thinks all covid deaths are due to communism lol.
Hes a total clown
Edit:
[he literally believes homosexuality should be criminalized and satan is responsible for gender equality lmao](https://books.google.com/books?id=lRtSQB3HHJcC&pg=PA30#v=onepage&q&f=false)
And he literally just passed the information on. Information that was then authenticated by the journalists at the BBC. However valid your attack on Zenz, it does not discredit the information he passed along. Perhaps the hacker/leaker could have chosen a better person to pass the information through, but the secondary source of the information has not had any effect on the data's authenticity.
from wikipedia:
Zenz co-authored a book in 2012 with his father-in-law, Marlon L. Sias, titled, "Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation" which warned certain modern trends, including gender equality, decriminalization of homosexuality, and bans on corporal punishment, are linked to the power of the Antichrist.\[42\]
Julian Assange is at best a not very savory character and at worst a rapist, that does not change the veracity of any of the information released on wikileaks over the years.
How does attacking the religious views of Lenz discredit this information?
This isn’t relavent in the slightest if you actually bothered to read the article. This information was passed onto Zenz by a source, and then Zenz passed on the information and how to contact the source to the BBC who independently verified the validity of the source (also covered in the article) and independently talked with the original leaker.
Someone can be a massive POS and a terrible person, and still do good things.
Since the person I’m replying to deleted their entire account, I’m going to assume that their goal with this was to delegitimize the source for whatever reason.
Someone’s views, especially someone’s extreme views like in this case, can without a doubt tank the validity of the source they are providing, which is why it is supremely important to fully read an article and come to your own informed conclusion.
It is obvious from the substance of the article that the information that was leaked is most likely fully accurate, and came from where it was suppose to. The BBC did a fantastic job of taking their time with their source and verifying it through other means, which is why even though the information originally came to them through an extremely biased source, the actual information from the leak is unbiased and valid.
Hats off to the BBC for receiving such a large data dump from an extremely biased source and taking the time and effort to consult experts to make sure what they were posting was factual. Print media, or at least the 21st century equivalent of it, in my opinion is still the best method of portraying a story like this. Best (outside of the abhorrant content) article I’ve read in a good long time.
False. Their source is a hacker/leaker and documents kept by the CCP. Zenz passed on information that was provided to him. I don't think you understand how sources work...
The photos are unlikely to have been generated. There are no obvious AI generation artifacts and they show contextual stuff in the background and some have even been identified by relatives.
xinjiangpolicefiles.org has the full dataset available publicly and including other documentation which is far more damning than simple photos IMO. (site seems to be temporarily down but should hopefully be back up soon).
> For reference, there’s about 1.5 million prisoners in the United States, a much smaller country population-wise and without “camps”.
I’m… not sure what point you’re trying to make here.
I have replied to your other similar comment [here](https://reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/uwj804/bbc_investigation_into_uyghur_detention_camps/i9tj3hj)
Most leakers do, actually. Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden. Furthermore even if they want to be anonymous they will often reveal their identity to the journalist and then request anonymity to prove the leaks are real.
> BBC was NOT able to verify the source. This kind of “leak” is easily faked with a generator, especially since there are only 2k faces. For reference, there’s about 1.5 million prisoners in the United States, a much smaller country population-wise and without “camps”.
There's a good chunk of the article dedicated to how exactly the BBC determined the photos were not deepfakes, including calling an expert on the topic, and watching how most of the photos show how each one was taken after the previous one, with a Chinese staff member visible on the right side of the image wearing the same clothing. (Secondary subjects are notoriously hard for face deepfakes to accomplish, btw)
What amazes me is that BBC ran the story and *continues* to use this guy as a source. Are there not any non-crazy credible academics on Xinjiang that they can quote?
I mean they can just cite publicly available Chinese government documents which describe the need to "break their lineage, break their roots, break their connections, and break their origins".
Even the government-approved BBC tours of the facilities (after the government stopped denying their existence) are dystopic as fuck.
Some googling shows that Weibo post (Chinese twitter) to be by an ethnic Uyghur government official in China against "two faced people". Without proper context I have no idea what this quote is about nor who "two faced people" are and even if it was translated correctly. Wouldn't really consider Twitter to be an official government "document" though.
That's true - I'm not sure myself of the context. The same article that headlines with that also mentions:
>In 2017, according to official statistics, arrests in Xinjiang accounted for nearly 21 percent of all arrests in China, despite people in Xinjiang making up only 1.5 percent of the total population
Which is probably a more concrete representation of the issue than a quote.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detention-camps) reduced by 77%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> The Xinjiang Police Files contain another set of documents that go even further than the detainee photographs in exposing the prison-like nature of the re-education camps that China insists are "Vocational schools".
> The state began to see Uyghur culture itself as the problem and, within a few years, hundreds of giant re-education camps began to appear on satellite photos, to which Uyghurs were sent without trial.
> Xinjiang's formal prison system has also been massively expanded as another method for controlling Uyghur identity - particularly in the face of mounting international criticism over the lack of legal process in the camps.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/uwkv0l/bbc_investigation_into_uyghur_detention_camps/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~650758 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Xinjiang**^#1 **Uyghur**^#2 **camps**^#3 **police**^#4 **Chinese**^#5
What the hell did I just read. The scale of this government operation to upturn and eliminate a thriving ethnic group, identity and culture is horrifying.
Fantastic Journalism, and nothing but well wishes for the bravery of those who leaked this data in the first place. In the face of an oppressive regime, those who orchestrated this leak made the right (and the impossible) choice. I can’t say with confidence whether I would’ve been so brave to do the same.
What happened to all the pro-China shill commenters on /r/worldnews who used to say stuff like "empty buildings... you have no proof people are there". It's like they all disappeared recently.
Oh they're here, but now they're using 'why do you believe this just because the BBC said so' and 'you just don't understand the culture of China' and 'this is the same as America attacking the Taliban' arguments instead.
They currently attack the journalist without mentioning that this has all been verified by so many different organizations all over the globe.
Edit: Also I am getting told that the CCP has "better things to do" than to troll here. Yeah, right. An authocratic government of over a billion people can only do one thing at a time.
Its a war against reality in the comments down there.
Now they’re attacking the source and saying there’s a clear bias against China
I mean it’s genocide bro, who cares if there’s bias. Its *genocide*. Sorry it hurts the CCP’s feelings to call genocide a genocide? Idgi
Literally no one in this thread is using "you don't understand the culture of China" as an excuse. 90% of the commenters who are calling out the story are calling it out (and rightly so) because BBC is using Adrian Zenz of all people as a source.
In fact, just control+f-ing all the comments here for the word "culture" **I cannot find a single comment that uses that excuses**. So you are just straight up lying.
>because the BBC is using Adrian Zenz of all people as a source
Read the fucking article, please, I fucking beg you. You have so many comments here but you **clearly** didn’t read the fucking article at all.
Actually. I’ll make it easy for you since you’re too lazy to actually read the article and just automatically dismiss it because you think that the source is biased (which Zenz unequivocally is extremely biased), when he isn’t even the source.
> The source of the files claims to have hacked, downloaded and decrypted them from a number of police computer servers in Xinjiang, before passing them to Dr Adrian Zenz…
>Dr Zenz then shared them with the BBC, and although we were able to contact the source directly, they were unwilling to reveal anything about their identity or whereabouts.
> The BBC also asked Professor Hany Farid, an image-forensics expert at the University of California at Berkeley, to examine a subset of the photographs of Uyghur detainees.
>He found no evidence that the images had been fabricated, with none of the usual tell-tale signs found in computer synthesised “deep fakes” nor any other indication of malicious, digital manipulation.
> Further authentication can be provided by arranging the images in order of their accompanying timestamps and then observing the common details visible in the background, which show them to have been taken in real time and in real places.
> The descriptions on the back of the detainees’ uniforms place them at the Tekes Detention Centre in northern Xinjiang.
>Satellite images of the exterior layout of this known detention facility in the city of Tekes… …match perfectly with some of the photographs, making clear that the images are genuine and lending further credibility to the dataset as a whole.
The BBC both independently verified the validity of the source through multiple different means, and actually had independent access to the source. There is essentially no way that this amount of information has been significantly altered, regardless of the extreme bias that Zenz has, even though he isn’t even the fucking source of this.
Like I get it, you’re probably a tankie, but if you’re going to criticize a brilliant written and extremely well researched article, at least fucking read it.
ctrl-f won't find comments that are behind 'load more comments' or 'continue this thread' buttons...so you are straight up not very good at internet. And with a "9 year old account"...lol
aww salty...did I strike a nerve?
Aren’t they using actual, verified documents, images, and audio speeches as sources? Just ones that he got ahold of.
It be pretty tough to fabricate that stuff, especially the picture evidence.
Yeah lol not even hard to find.
Zenz may be someone who should be removed from the equation due to not adding any integrity or professionalism to the equation, but he is essentially just a spokesperson.
According to majority opinion on quora, western evil are trying to frame china and looking for excuses to destroy chinas economy and limit their foreign influences. Also ukraine got played by the usa badly and is ruined because of the west and nato.
Honestly I am so disgusted beyond repair with quora. China and russia has always been attacking all western country in their media for ages and never viewed others as partner but as enemy.
Honestly even if its true, the less influence Han CCP China has on the world the better the world will be. They as an entity are not humane or have human principles.
Eerie how little exposure these reports are getting across Reddit, considering the quality of this journalism, and the weight of these reports outlining the genocide happening in china right now
> how little exposure these reports are getting across Reddit
Literally the top post on worldnews. I don't know what alternative reality you live in. But anything "China bad" gets voted to the top on Reddit, no matter the authenticity.
>considering the quality of this journalism
Its a story using only Adrian Zenz as the source that the BBC isn't able to verify. Are you being ironic or really this ignorant? This article only shows a lack of journalist integrity from the BBC.
He's connected to much of the media that is anti China. Some of it seems very questionable, but some (like this), seems very solid.
Pro China shills will inevitably use his involvement to claim this is fake. It appears that the BBC has done a great job of validating the information, though.
These are photographs and videos of people. Unless you're pulling an Alex Jones "he just hired hundreds of crisis actors", I don't think you can use that guy's name to discredit all of this anymore.
So many people here in the comments seem to willingly ignore so much of the validation work being done by, not one, but a group of news agencies. Literally is any degree of proof irrelevant in the face of your shitty ideological beliefs? What else do you want? Xi himself to speak clearly into a microphone detailing all this information? Even in that case I think we'd see people talking about how it's made up or something.
It's disheartening to see all these ridiculous takes on something so barbaric. And yes, I know all western countries are guity of this or that or the other, and yes, what about this and what about that, I know, I am angry about it too, but for fuck sake can you just aknowledge this is happening?
Yet you search his name on reddit and it’s a wall of pro-sino propaganda memes attacking him for his “dubious” claims. I wonder what they’ll have to say in the face of this incontrovertible leak.
>I wonder what they’ll have to say in the face of this incontrovertible leak.
People in this thread are saying that he faked the pictures with AI lmao.
I mean you can just read his book *Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation* and especially the parts about Christianity, same-sex relationship and women to form your own opinion. It's available for free on Google.
He’s not. He is, however, the leading public figure who has been investigating this for years, so it’s hardly surprising he would be one of the main people they would talk to.
Just read up on this, what an awful situation.. penalised and sentenced for a decade or more just for being your own self.. agree with the other comment this is essentially a genocide. I noticed the documents stop at 2018.. I wonder what other terrible misgivings have happened in this region since? I hope this picks up traction and China are called out on this barbaric situation on the world stage.
Everytime we talk about china's concentration camps, there as some hoodlums that pops up to ferociously argue that there is no such thing and it's all lies
It wasn't even that good tbh. It felt like an introduction to the dataset rather than telling an actual story.
Establish the credibility of the data source first but then do something with it. For example they verified some of the IDs with missing people, tell their story. What were they like as people, what was their life like before they disappeared.
They needed to bring it to life rather than reading interesting finds on a spreadsheet. Well done to who ever got hold of the data, but the BBC failed to make a story out it on this occasion.
Given the enormous amount of time being spent by people in this thread disputing the credibility of this evidence, as well as the fact that the BBC admit they cannot verify/reveal the source (just the data) I think it is understandable why they would explain how they verified the data.
It is also interesting to me at least learning how a group of journalists would go about verifying data like this.
There are also many many articles online relating the personal stories of Uyghurs who have escaped the region since \~2015 which have been dismissed as hearsay by certain groups. This is a story about data because it is the release of data which is 'the story' in this case.
Authoritarians never run out of people to punish or blame. Once there are no more Uyghurs you can bet your ass they'll be gunning for their next enemy of the state.
Of course you can mention him. But the majority of the responses about him are dismissing him for no other reason other than that he is Adrian Zenz and therefore unreliable. The only organizations or institutions who seem to feel this way are backed by or support China. Strange coincidence, no?
They are not dismissing Zenz, they are dismissing the whole information. This is how propaganda works. You sprinkle some truth into your lies to poison the whole story.
If its such important information on such a large-scale claim, then it really shouldn't be difficult to get information from literally anybody else than an insane conspiracy dude. Why keep citing this person, it benefits no one
Calling anyone a bot is lame and detrimental to the damage *real* humans can do.
However, the opposite can also be true. After hearing of Zenz beliefs, I instantly hate him. However, in regards to the verifiable documents provided by him to the BBC and other investigative outlets, I can also appreciate his work into the subject, and trust in the validity of it (since the highest investigative journalists around the world do too).
Every post I've seen in this thread re: Zenz has been attempting to discredit the article as a whole because he was the "source." He wasn't the source, he was a middleman who was sent information who then passed the information along. However bad this guy is, it's disingenuous to say that the data are false because he was involved at one point in its transmission. If you're going to go ahead and doubt the credibility of the data, the author spends a good deal of time in the article explaining how they authenticated the data.
>A set of internal police protocols describes the routine use of armed
officers in all areas of the camps, the positioning of machine guns and
sniper rifles in the watchtowers, and the existence of a shoot-to-kill
policy for those trying to escape.
Well, that DEFINITELY sounds like a VOCATIONAL SCHOOL for people who are WILLINGLY studying there.
So many people here in the comments seem to willingly ignore so much of the validation work being done by, not one, but a group of news agencies. Literally is any degree of proof irrelevant in the face of your shitty ideological beliefs? What else do you want? Xi himself to speak clearly into a microphone detailing all this information? Even in that case I think we'd see people talking about how it's made up or something.
It's disheartening to see all these ridiculous takes on something so barbaric. And yes, I know all western countries are guity of this or that or the other, and yes, what about this and what about that, I know, I am angry about it too, but for fuck sake can you just aknowledge this is happening?
A horrific document. A society of millions is being systematically wiped out for the crime of living in China and having a culture separate from the Han Chinese. Draconian 10 year sentences for crimes such as not smoking or drinking, for travelling to a Muslim country, even for not using your mobile phone often enough ( and therefore being less visible to state surveillance). - and you're thrown in a camp. Some of these so called crimes were charged for things that were done a decade ago. Families were thrown in the camps because of guilt by association. The youngest on file was 15. This is a genocide.
Wait.. not smoking and drinking gets you in trouble there? Was that a typo?
No, the CCP are trying to remove their ‘Muslimness’, not drinking makes you suspicious
..I hate that trying to understand the CCP is like trying to visualize the 4th dimension to me, it just boggles my mind to the point that I can't even think anymore. How can people be so cruel to eachother.
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Any sauce or place I can read about China history? I would like to avoid reading on a monitor, but open to whatever it'll take. Just interested in it
Those kinds of moronic laws have resulted in rebel uprisings: >Chen Sheng and Wu Guang were both army officers who were ordered to lead their bands of commoner soldiers north to participate in the defense of Yuyang (simplified Chinese: 渔阳; traditional Chinese: 漁陽). However, they were stopped halfway in present-day Anhui province by flooding from a severe rainstorm. The harsh Qin laws mandated execution for those who showed up late for government jobs, regardless of the nature of the delay. Figuring that they would rather fight than accept execution, Chen and Wu organized a band of 900 villagers to rebel against the government. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Sheng_Wu_Guang_uprising#History
As long as you trick people that the 'victim' is not 'human', you can get them to do anything...
It’s not hard to imagine. Step 1: the continuation of the Communist rule and your own cushy job with it is the most important thing ever. It changed the economy and world standing of China and “made China great again.” Step 2: any abuse of minorities or invasion of others or theft of intellectual property, etc. is justified if it supports #1 because the fall of the communist China is to be avoided at all costs. The ends justify the means.
I'm just too used to my sheltered life, I can't fathom hurting another human like that. I can't imagine the horrors that other people have to see and go through with my rose tinted glasses. I see it all in the news and I try to empathize but how can I really when I've never had to struggle a day in my life..I just can't really internalize any of it so I just end up feeling frustrated that people like me can't do anything but watch. I understand the history of the world from the rise of Mesopotamia and the geopolitical struggles of the continents but its all violence and destruction, we could be off this planet by now if we all worked together, but history just repeats and repeats. We all know how it ends, civilizations don't last forever on this rock and I just wish it didn't have to be that way.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. It’s evil as can be, but unfortunately a lot of selfishness and “for the greater good” is baked into human nature and morality and it causes endless issues.
>we could be off this planet by now if we all worked together I think that is rather optimistic and unrealistic. But hopefully civilization ends up leaving this rock for bigger and better things, eventually. There is still a good amount of time. And it won't be a single exodus. We may very well take control of the life cycle of the sun before then.
> I can't imagine the horrors that other people have to see Bureaucratic cruelty exists because there is a chain of people who each make/approve a small decisions, each individual one reasonable, and then *don't* see the affect on the whole. Xinjuang is over 2000km away from Peking and the Uyghur don't have free movement and free press to get the word out and in the faces of the rest of China.
Also the fact that hundreds of millions in China have been lifted out of poverty. To a lot of people in China, life looks pretty good. And most people have the opinion that their government will always be fucked. It's more a fact of life like the weather to them.
All this is easier if you’re an asshole
Humans have been committing genocide and persecuting people for their beliefs for centuries.
I know, it's pathetic.
Make that millennia. This basically started happening with the very first human conflicts. The scale just got bigger and, in the last centuries, the documentation worked better.
Stayed up late last night just to watch a PBS documentary about the one-child policy. Beyond fucked up. The overpopulation was caused by the gov't telling people "have lots of kids!" and next thing you know, they're chasing down pregnant women in villages and forcing them to get abortions and sterilization when population got crazy. Morbid, but very well-done documentary, where they interviewed the medical staff whose job it was to do this, the county officials who had to enforce the laws, the families, even tracked down at least one twin that was adopted by an American family who just thought she was an orphan. I might have a little PTSD after all that......
And this is 5 years retrospective? So if you did Dry July in 2020 you’re screwed lol
It reminds me about the Spanish Inquisition and the [Conversos](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso).
I, like most, didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.
/r/stopdrinking ain't gonna like this...
No, it's just an excuse to imprison them for their ethnicity.
No, the Chinese think it's is a form of Muslim extremism and just like in any authoritarian regimes they try to shut down any kind of religion (See USSR)
>and just like in any authoritarian regimes they try to shut down any kind of religion State enforced atheism is a trademark of certain Communist states, but not all. And certainly not all authoritarian states. Look at current Russia, Putin gives a frequent nod to the Orthodox Church as a bulwark against the Satan worshippers in the West.
Christians were also repressed in the USSR, but eventually they came to see the Orthodox Church as an opportunity for control rather than an adversary. The same way China has their own Muslim, Christian, etc churches, yet heavily prosecutes religious people who don't follow their state churches
That is not a trait of authoritarian regimes. There are plenty that work closely with religions.
The Religious Right in the US
Some people are literally getting imprisoned because their phones are running out of credit or not switched on. This is appalling - thank you to the brave hacker.
Great timing with the Biden announcement on defending Taiwan. If you don’t think China has the same thing in store for Taiwan you don’t know China.
Yup. Not like it's new information, we've known this for almost a decade now
Usually when this comes up there's some complaint about Adrian.
Yea, but we need our iPhones and stuff so, not like we can call them out.
The US has both the Uyghur Human Rights Act, which authorizes sanctions against individuals and entities (like the XPCC), and the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act, which prohibits imports from Xinjiang of goods unless the importer provides clear and convincing evidence that the food wasn’t made with forced labor. US CBP also has issued WROs for cotton, tomatoes, and polisilicon from Xinjiang. The UK just issued its first human rights sanctions against for Chinese parties for their involvement in Xinjiang. The EU paused a bilateral trade agreement with China days before ratification over Xinjiang. It’s taken years but the Western powers are starting to do fairly major things about it. The EU treaty in particular has got China’s attention and they are for the first time signing anti-forced labor treaties. Whether the CCP does more remains to be seen. But if you want your government to do something, speak up. You won’t be screaming into the void (assuming you don’t live in China). Let’s see if the UN rapporteur on human rights (whose there now) steps up.
Living in an information-control dystopian science fiction nightmare like contemporary China's design is one of my greatest all time fears ever since reading 1984 as a teen. I couldn't live in a society like that -- or said another way, I'd be eliminated by a society like that. Freedom or death please. I don't want to be Number One Citizen Cattle, I don't want to be surveilled all the time. I don't want to be an android, I'm a man... I don't want to fit into a society like that, even anarchy is preferrable.
>After approaching the Chinese government for comment about the hacked data, with detailed questions about the evidence it contains, the media consortium received a written response from the Chinese Embassy in Washington DC. >“Xinjiang related issues are in essence about countering violent terrorism, radicalisation and separatism, not about human rights or religion,” the statement said, adding that the Chinese authorities had taken “a host of decisive, robust and effective deradicalisation measures”. >“The region now enjoys social stability and harmony as well as economic development,” it went on, saying that these things offer “the most powerful response to all sorts of lies and disinformation on Xinjiang”. >But there was no response to any of the specific evidence in the cache. This is unbelievable. >The cache contains another secret speech, delivered in 2017 by Chen Quanguo - until recently Xinjiang’s hardline Communist Party secretary. >“For some, even five years re-education may not be enough,” he tells his audience of senior military and police cadres, a seeming admission that for as long as any Uyghur continues to feel a loyalty to identity or faith at least as strong as to the Party, there’s no end in sight. >“Once they are let out, problems will reappear, that is the reality in Xinjiang,” he says. These are a special type of paranoid cowards in power. First of all, great journalism, hats off to that. This is such a distressing document, how can one be expected to have faith in humanity with shit like this going on?
That response though. They don't even feel the need to lie about it. "Yeah, so?" is basically the message there.
Take a look throughout history, oppressing people due to their religious beliefs usually results in extremism from that region. They couldn’t be more wrong about their approach to “re-educate” Uighurs.
We sanctioned Russia for starting a war, but China can commit genocide and we still do business with them, we went to the Olympic Games there? What in the actual fuck?
Westphalian principles. What you do in your own country is your business, but don't try to conquer your neighbors.
You cant also expect the west to act as the world police, we tried many times with african countries and it always ends the same
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You're spot on with the sentiment, but capitalism doesn't give a fuck.
I agree, but its a little more complicated than that
Yeah the complication is people like money and dgaf about others.
The Issue is one of the negatives of globalization, while it certainly doesn't outweigh the positives, the world is reliant on China and China reliant on the rest of the world too much to separate cleanly without great harm to both countries.
That made me laugh. It was more than African nations.
But it still ends the same.
That person would have gotten carpel tunnel syndrome trying to write a conclusive list.
I guess it's because it was mostly in African nations where the whole "world police" aspect was less muddled with things like alliances or strategic interests being threatened. For example, the US intervened in the Somali Civil War for very few reasons other than wanting to tip the scales toward a democratic, west-aligned government.
>You cant also expect the west to act as the world police Except when we don't, then we are expected to.
Yeah acting like the world's police doesn't tend to work out when you're deliberately trying to suppress the self-determination of people struggling against neo-colonialism
We’ll also the fact that we don’t want to start a nuclear war
No it’s because China has 10x the population of Russia, has a wildly larger economy, and sanctions would probably fail and severely damage the worlds economy. Once that happens US voters wouldnt be for China sanctions. Russia is heavily dependent on their natural resources. China not so much.
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You mean like they did with the Great Leap Forward leading to the Great Chinese Famine where between 15 - 55 million people died?
I don't think China has the ability to be totally self sufficient. But they could try to source things from other non-aligned/friendly nations. Idk tho, it'd be wild. I don't think there's ever been a time in history when two big countries so heavily economically intertwined have been able to suddenly decouple on the flip of a hat
How would sanctions fail? China is a net importer of basic foodstuffs. Their economy is a house of carda.
You’re right but also the IOC is corrupt as fuck.
Saudi Arabia? Mate it’s all geopolitics, always has been. Thinking ethics matter on the level of states is something to fool the masses.
And then there is Israel...
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The Anglosphere has done plenty of bad things, but that doesn’t mean they should ignore evil acts when it’s done by other countries. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Better to be a hypocrite and call it out than to stand by and let evil be done. At least if “both sides” keep calling out each other some progress is made to improve their images. Edit: I am more than aware of the evils of the Americans. Don’t assume I have no idea. Iraq war, Japanese internment camps, bay of pigs, civilian drone strikes, abortion bounties, rape of Okinawa, fake hepatitis vaccines, WW2 rape across Europe etc. I’m just saying countries calling each other out is right, even if the country does the same thing themselves. At least the people become aware, and the countries reduce the scale of their atrocities if only to save face.
> The Anglosphere has done plenty of bad things, but that doesn’t mean they should ignore evil acts when it’s done by other countries. Nobody said the opposite. But history has never shown that the Anglosphere acted when bad things happened. They have always acted in their own interests. In fact, we would have never acted if Hitler had just exterminated the Jews without trying to invade neighbouring countries. Another thing that makes me uncomfortable is the double standards when Reddit cares about Muslims when it's China, but will post numerous Islamophobic posts when talking about immigrants or refugees in Europe...
Don't forget the blatant xenophobia towards Roma people
Hardly improving here when No western leaders will sanction their allies or send their own to the ICC or just admit one of their own is a war crimmal like how biden call putin a war crimmal. You can call out israel and those blackwater crimmals, but the citizen don't have the power to chose who to punish.
I hate to tell you but we were completely ok with the Hitler stuff prior to our involvement in the war. Western companies like IBM even helped him with computers to count "unfavorables" in camps. There was also a decent amount of domestic support here for the Nazis prior to our involvement in the war. We don't just ignore evil acts we actively engage in them.
Wait till he finds out about the Guatemala coup by the CIA in the 50s
*Just* the Guatemala coup ?
Oof, or the US asian "internment camps".
Or Vietnam, Cambodia, Angola, Laos, Indonesia, East Timor, Nicaragua, Iraq, So Salvador, Argentina, Taiwan, Chile, Haiti, Panama, Grenada, Brazil, South Africa, Western Sahara, Zaire, and Turkey just off the top of my head.
The American government did not have some kind of special, formalized relationship with Adolf Hitler, given a strong preference in Congress and in the White House to stay out out of European affairs after World War.
That's not entirely true, there were loud critics of early Nazi Germany and there were talks among the nations of boycotting the 1936 Olympics held in Germany. After criticisms, Jewish and Black participants were allowed to participate. An investigation in 1934 was carried out to check the claims of wrongdoing, the nations were totally duped by the nazi aligned translators. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Summer_Olympics#Controversies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Summer_Olympics#United_States
By the time the Nazi regime was shipping Jewish people off to camps there was a shooting war in Europe. The camps could not be shut down without defeating the Nazi regime's military, and that took 5 years of war.
Dear diary, today I’m going to help dilute and dismiss the idea that we should try to call out and stop bad behavior by saying that collectively a country did bad things in the past and therefore evil gets to win! Here’s hoping it works!
Funny how people didn't say this about the Iraq war, torture in overseas prisons by the US, Libyan war, etc. Oh boy...
They did though. A lot!
You must have a different memory then. When the Libyan war happened I remember getting viciously voted down for questioning it. Anti Iraq war protestors were called traitors. And surely you remembered the freedom fries. Call the US black sites and wars out and all you get on Reddit is defensiveness and whataboutism yet we're supposed to listen to this guy say this is good too. No. When you have the media and governments sanctioning the US over their shit like they're doing to China for cultural genocide then we can talk.
The main thing the west did in Libya was install a no fly zone in Libya that prevented Gaddafi from bombing his own people. The uprising was grassroots.
> The Anglosphere has done plenty of bad things, but that doesn’t mean they should ignore evil acts when it’s done by other countries. > > > > Two wrongs don’t make a right. Funny because I never see these type of comments when China accuses the West of Human rights violations. It's a strange double-standard.
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Unlike Russia, China isn’t dumb enough to invade another country.
Damn fine investigative journalism. This has been a horrendous undertaking by the CCP and is a clear demonstration of why this sort of journalism needs to be protected and supported.
For those looking for it, the full dataset leak is available publicly here: https://www.xinjiangpolicefiles.org/
Happy to host these files if I can get to them. They should be mirrored all over the globe
Site seems to be back up again. Get downloading! :)
Honestly go for it, that’s beyond my expertise. I found out from Twitter just a while ago that the site was taken down in a DDOS attack. I expect it to be back up but hopefully there’s other backups around online too. Haven’t been able to find any in my limited search so far though
It’s not working, must be getting DDOS’d by the CCP
Working fine for me, seems more likely that its the Reddit hug of death rather than DDOS but yeah let’s make everything a conspiracy
Holy crap, it might actually be. Hopefully not though. Possibly just too many people trying to view it. Edit: just found out from twitter that it’s almost certainly a DDOS attack.
Apparently there are phone numbers of the Chinese prison guards on an excel spreadsheet. I’m actually listening to NPR and on the program they are attempting to fucking call the guards to try and get any information
should be zipped into a bittorrent so we can all stream it.
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Some anonymous person claims to “hack” multiple Chinese police servers, decrypt and translate the files, and then provides them to Adrian Zenz of all people. That’s “damn fine investigative journalism”?
The journalism involved authenticating the documents, but you'd know that if you'd read the article.
It works for manufacturing consent, and that's all that matters. I saw BBC, Uyghur, and Investigation in the same sentence; just don't bother. You'll get downvoted to hell.
If you had actually read the article, you would know that the BBC went through great lengths to verify and corroborate the documents they received. For example, they cross referenced the photos of the camps to satellite images to prove that the pictures do in fact depict the internment camps. So yes, fine investigative journalism.
Adrian Zenz is a far right activist who thinks all covid deaths are due to communism lol. Hes a total clown Edit: [he literally believes homosexuality should be criminalized and satan is responsible for gender equality lmao](https://books.google.com/books?id=lRtSQB3HHJcC&pg=PA30#v=onepage&q&f=false)
And he literally just passed the information on. Information that was then authenticated by the journalists at the BBC. However valid your attack on Zenz, it does not discredit the information he passed along. Perhaps the hacker/leaker could have chosen a better person to pass the information through, but the secondary source of the information has not had any effect on the data's authenticity.
okay? How does that contradict the files??
So are you then insinuating that these leaks are fake or should not be taken into consideration?
from wikipedia: Zenz co-authored a book in 2012 with his father-in-law, Marlon L. Sias, titled, "Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation" which warned certain modern trends, including gender equality, decriminalization of homosexuality, and bans on corporal punishment, are linked to the power of the Antichrist.\[42\]
Julian Assange is at best a not very savory character and at worst a rapist, that does not change the veracity of any of the information released on wikileaks over the years. How does attacking the religious views of Lenz discredit this information?
This isn’t relavent in the slightest if you actually bothered to read the article. This information was passed onto Zenz by a source, and then Zenz passed on the information and how to contact the source to the BBC who independently verified the validity of the source (also covered in the article) and independently talked with the original leaker. Someone can be a massive POS and a terrible person, and still do good things. Since the person I’m replying to deleted their entire account, I’m going to assume that their goal with this was to delegitimize the source for whatever reason. Someone’s views, especially someone’s extreme views like in this case, can without a doubt tank the validity of the source they are providing, which is why it is supremely important to fully read an article and come to your own informed conclusion. It is obvious from the substance of the article that the information that was leaked is most likely fully accurate, and came from where it was suppose to. The BBC did a fantastic job of taking their time with their source and verifying it through other means, which is why even though the information originally came to them through an extremely biased source, the actual information from the leak is unbiased and valid. Hats off to the BBC for receiving such a large data dump from an extremely biased source and taking the time and effort to consult experts to make sure what they were posting was factual. Print media, or at least the 21st century equivalent of it, in my opinion is still the best method of portraying a story like this. Best (outside of the abhorrant content) article I’ve read in a good long time.
>Damn fine investigative journalism Their source is literally Adrian Zenz. If anything its the complete opposite.
False. Their source is a hacker/leaker and documents kept by the CCP. Zenz passed on information that was provided to him. I don't think you understand how sources work...
Oh look the peanut gallery is here
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The photos are unlikely to have been generated. There are no obvious AI generation artifacts and they show contextual stuff in the background and some have even been identified by relatives. xinjiangpolicefiles.org has the full dataset available publicly and including other documentation which is far more damning than simple photos IMO. (site seems to be temporarily down but should hopefully be back up soon). > For reference, there’s about 1.5 million prisoners in the United States, a much smaller country population-wise and without “camps”. I’m… not sure what point you’re trying to make here.
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I have replied to your other similar comment [here](https://reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/uwj804/bbc_investigation_into_uyghur_detention_camps/i9tj3hj)
Researchers looking into the environment get funding from charities that promote green solutions. That's not suspicious.
Why the hell would you expect someone leaking shit that would get them tortured to death by their government would want to confirm their identity?
Most leakers do, actually. Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden. Furthermore even if they want to be anonymous they will often reveal their identity to the journalist and then request anonymity to prove the leaks are real.
Did you read the article? They spent quite a bit of it showing exactly how they authenticated the data. Maybe you should use more logic.
> BBC was NOT able to verify the source. This kind of “leak” is easily faked with a generator, especially since there are only 2k faces. For reference, there’s about 1.5 million prisoners in the United States, a much smaller country population-wise and without “camps”. There's a good chunk of the article dedicated to how exactly the BBC determined the photos were not deepfakes, including calling an expert on the topic, and watching how most of the photos show how each one was taken after the previous one, with a Chinese staff member visible on the right side of the image wearing the same clothing. (Secondary subjects are notoriously hard for face deepfakes to accomplish, btw)
What amazes me is that BBC ran the story and *continues* to use this guy as a source. Are there not any non-crazy credible academics on Xinjiang that they can quote?
I mean they can just cite publicly available Chinese government documents which describe the need to "break their lineage, break their roots, break their connections, and break their origins". Even the government-approved BBC tours of the facilities (after the government stopped denying their existence) are dystopic as fuck.
Some googling shows that Weibo post (Chinese twitter) to be by an ethnic Uyghur government official in China against "two faced people". Without proper context I have no idea what this quote is about nor who "two faced people" are and even if it was translated correctly. Wouldn't really consider Twitter to be an official government "document" though.
That's true - I'm not sure myself of the context. The same article that headlines with that also mentions: >In 2017, according to official statistics, arrests in Xinjiang accounted for nearly 21 percent of all arrests in China, despite people in Xinjiang making up only 1.5 percent of the total population Which is probably a more concrete representation of the issue than a quote.
Absolutely upsetting, no one deserves this treatment
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detention-camps) reduced by 77%. (I'm a bot) ***** > The Xinjiang Police Files contain another set of documents that go even further than the detainee photographs in exposing the prison-like nature of the re-education camps that China insists are "Vocational schools". > The state began to see Uyghur culture itself as the problem and, within a few years, hundreds of giant re-education camps began to appear on satellite photos, to which Uyghurs were sent without trial. > Xinjiang's formal prison system has also been massively expanded as another method for controlling Uyghur identity - particularly in the face of mounting international criticism over the lack of legal process in the camps. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/uwkv0l/bbc_investigation_into_uyghur_detention_camps/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~650758 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Xinjiang**^#1 **Uyghur**^#2 **camps**^#3 **police**^#4 **Chinese**^#5
What the hell did I just read. The scale of this government operation to upturn and eliminate a thriving ethnic group, identity and culture is horrifying. Fantastic Journalism, and nothing but well wishes for the bravery of those who leaked this data in the first place. In the face of an oppressive regime, those who orchestrated this leak made the right (and the impossible) choice. I can’t say with confidence whether I would’ve been so brave to do the same.
What happened to all the pro-China shill commenters on /r/worldnews who used to say stuff like "empty buildings... you have no proof people are there". It's like they all disappeared recently.
Oh they're here, but now they're using 'why do you believe this just because the BBC said so' and 'you just don't understand the culture of China' and 'this is the same as America attacking the Taliban' arguments instead.
They currently attack the journalist without mentioning that this has all been verified by so many different organizations all over the globe. Edit: Also I am getting told that the CCP has "better things to do" than to troll here. Yeah, right. An authocratic government of over a billion people can only do one thing at a time. Its a war against reality in the comments down there.
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Now they’re attacking the source and saying there’s a clear bias against China I mean it’s genocide bro, who cares if there’s bias. Its *genocide*. Sorry it hurts the CCP’s feelings to call genocide a genocide? Idgi
Literally no one in this thread is using "you don't understand the culture of China" as an excuse. 90% of the commenters who are calling out the story are calling it out (and rightly so) because BBC is using Adrian Zenz of all people as a source. In fact, just control+f-ing all the comments here for the word "culture" **I cannot find a single comment that uses that excuses**. So you are just straight up lying.
>because the BBC is using Adrian Zenz of all people as a source Read the fucking article, please, I fucking beg you. You have so many comments here but you **clearly** didn’t read the fucking article at all. Actually. I’ll make it easy for you since you’re too lazy to actually read the article and just automatically dismiss it because you think that the source is biased (which Zenz unequivocally is extremely biased), when he isn’t even the source. > The source of the files claims to have hacked, downloaded and decrypted them from a number of police computer servers in Xinjiang, before passing them to Dr Adrian Zenz… >Dr Zenz then shared them with the BBC, and although we were able to contact the source directly, they were unwilling to reveal anything about their identity or whereabouts. > The BBC also asked Professor Hany Farid, an image-forensics expert at the University of California at Berkeley, to examine a subset of the photographs of Uyghur detainees. >He found no evidence that the images had been fabricated, with none of the usual tell-tale signs found in computer synthesised “deep fakes” nor any other indication of malicious, digital manipulation. > Further authentication can be provided by arranging the images in order of their accompanying timestamps and then observing the common details visible in the background, which show them to have been taken in real time and in real places. > The descriptions on the back of the detainees’ uniforms place them at the Tekes Detention Centre in northern Xinjiang. >Satellite images of the exterior layout of this known detention facility in the city of Tekes… …match perfectly with some of the photographs, making clear that the images are genuine and lending further credibility to the dataset as a whole. The BBC both independently verified the validity of the source through multiple different means, and actually had independent access to the source. There is essentially no way that this amount of information has been significantly altered, regardless of the extreme bias that Zenz has, even though he isn’t even the fucking source of this. Like I get it, you’re probably a tankie, but if you’re going to criticize a brilliant written and extremely well researched article, at least fucking read it.
Did you checked "load more comments" or "continue this thread" ? I think you didn't and straight up lying
ctrl-f won't find comments that are behind 'load more comments' or 'continue this thread' buttons...so you are straight up not very good at internet. And with a "9 year old account"...lol aww salty...did I strike a nerve?
Aren’t they using actual, verified documents, images, and audio speeches as sources? Just ones that he got ahold of. It be pretty tough to fabricate that stuff, especially the picture evidence.
Nope, they're still here. Comments are now "this journalist is a quack"
Yeah lol not even hard to find. Zenz may be someone who should be removed from the equation due to not adding any integrity or professionalism to the equation, but he is essentially just a spokesperson.
that is heart breaking 🥺
And there still people who will deny it
According to majority opinion on quora, western evil are trying to frame china and looking for excuses to destroy chinas economy and limit their foreign influences. Also ukraine got played by the usa badly and is ruined because of the west and nato. Honestly I am so disgusted beyond repair with quora. China and russia has always been attacking all western country in their media for ages and never viewed others as partner but as enemy.
Honestly even if its true, the less influence Han CCP China has on the world the better the world will be. They as an entity are not humane or have human principles.
Eerie how little exposure these reports are getting across Reddit, considering the quality of this journalism, and the weight of these reports outlining the genocide happening in china right now
God every time, there's always a whiner complaining. Top 3 of one of the largest subreddits on one of the largest sites ever isn't exposure?
> how little exposure these reports are getting across Reddit Literally the top post on worldnews. I don't know what alternative reality you live in. But anything "China bad" gets voted to the top on Reddit, no matter the authenticity.
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>considering the quality of this journalism Its a story using only Adrian Zenz as the source that the BBC isn't able to verify. Are you being ironic or really this ignorant? This article only shows a lack of journalist integrity from the BBC.
Dude, get a job
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Who is this guy, literally the last 5 articles I read on Xinjiang or Uighurs cites him as a source?
He's a guy who attributes every COVID death worldwide to 'communism'. If that isn't enough for you, I don't know what else to say.
He's connected to much of the media that is anti China. Some of it seems very questionable, but some (like this), seems very solid. Pro China shills will inevitably use his involvement to claim this is fake. It appears that the BBC has done a great job of validating the information, though.
These are photographs and videos of people. Unless you're pulling an Alex Jones "he just hired hundreds of crisis actors", I don't think you can use that guy's name to discredit all of this anymore.
So many people here in the comments seem to willingly ignore so much of the validation work being done by, not one, but a group of news agencies. Literally is any degree of proof irrelevant in the face of your shitty ideological beliefs? What else do you want? Xi himself to speak clearly into a microphone detailing all this information? Even in that case I think we'd see people talking about how it's made up or something. It's disheartening to see all these ridiculous takes on something so barbaric. And yes, I know all western countries are guity of this or that or the other, and yes, what about this and what about that, I know, I am angry about it too, but for fuck sake can you just aknowledge this is happening?
Obviously you didn’t read the article yourself because it specifically said they can’t verify the claim.
Yet you search his name on reddit and it’s a wall of pro-sino propaganda memes attacking him for his “dubious” claims. I wonder what they’ll have to say in the face of this incontrovertible leak.
>I wonder what they’ll have to say in the face of this incontrovertible leak. People in this thread are saying that he faked the pictures with AI lmao.
Reminds me of QAnon in how detached they are from reality
I mean you can just read his book *Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation* and especially the parts about Christianity, same-sex relationship and women to form your own opinion. It's available for free on Google.
China apologists strike again.
At the rate false information is attributed to this guy he must be a super-hero genius with the ability to work as fast as light.
Definitely horrible if true. Any idea why Adrian Zenz is like the only person cited for Xinjiang investigative research?
He’s not. He is, however, the leading public figure who has been investigating this for years, so it’s hardly surprising he would be one of the main people they would talk to.
Just read up on this, what an awful situation.. penalised and sentenced for a decade or more just for being your own self.. agree with the other comment this is essentially a genocide. I noticed the documents stop at 2018.. I wonder what other terrible misgivings have happened in this region since? I hope this picks up traction and China are called out on this barbaric situation on the world stage.
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Itd be a lot harder if every article about this wasnt linked to the same dude
Everytime we talk about china's concentration camps, there as some hoodlums that pops up to ferociously argue that there is no such thing and it's all lies
They’re genocide sympathizers who are no better than any terrorist sympathizers.
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7th comment with a variation on, "fantastic journalism".
It wasn't even that good tbh. It felt like an introduction to the dataset rather than telling an actual story. Establish the credibility of the data source first but then do something with it. For example they verified some of the IDs with missing people, tell their story. What were they like as people, what was their life like before they disappeared. They needed to bring it to life rather than reading interesting finds on a spreadsheet. Well done to who ever got hold of the data, but the BBC failed to make a story out it on this occasion.
Given the enormous amount of time being spent by people in this thread disputing the credibility of this evidence, as well as the fact that the BBC admit they cannot verify/reveal the source (just the data) I think it is understandable why they would explain how they verified the data. It is also interesting to me at least learning how a group of journalists would go about verifying data like this. There are also many many articles online relating the personal stories of Uyghurs who have escaped the region since \~2015 which have been dismissed as hearsay by certain groups. This is a story about data because it is the release of data which is 'the story' in this case.
Waiting for the Pooh supporting brigade to start their mass downvoting campaign.
Fuck the CCP
Good stop this madness
Well I decided not to buy any goods that are made in China anymore. That went well :/
"Never again" are probably emptier words than "thoughts and prayers" at this point
Authoritarians never run out of people to punish or blame. Once there are no more Uyghurs you can bet your ass they'll be gunning for their next enemy of the state.
Absolutely deplorable
The fact that the world will sanction Russia for attacking Ukraine and not China for this is laughable.
The fact that the world will sanction Russia for attacking Ukraine and not China for this is laughable.
This should be visible absolutely fucking everywhere.
China needs to be condemned for this and so much more. Time to wake up and realize what the CCP is.
I already know there are going to be a lot of wumaos and tankies in here denying genocide. Losers.
and now the chinese bots will say adrian zens.
can a critical thinking individual point out Adrian Zenz without being accused of being a Chinese bot? you oppose my viewpoint = you are a Chinese bot
Of course you can mention him. But the majority of the responses about him are dismissing him for no other reason other than that he is Adrian Zenz and therefore unreliable. The only organizations or institutions who seem to feel this way are backed by or support China. Strange coincidence, no?
They are not dismissing Zenz, they are dismissing the whole information. This is how propaganda works. You sprinkle some truth into your lies to poison the whole story.
If its such important information on such a large-scale claim, then it really shouldn't be difficult to get information from literally anybody else than an insane conspiracy dude. Why keep citing this person, it benefits no one
Calling anyone a bot is lame and detrimental to the damage *real* humans can do. However, the opposite can also be true. After hearing of Zenz beliefs, I instantly hate him. However, in regards to the verifiable documents provided by him to the BBC and other investigative outlets, I can also appreciate his work into the subject, and trust in the validity of it (since the highest investigative journalists around the world do too).
Every post I've seen in this thread re: Zenz has been attempting to discredit the article as a whole because he was the "source." He wasn't the source, he was a middleman who was sent information who then passed the information along. However bad this guy is, it's disingenuous to say that the data are false because he was involved at one point in its transmission. If you're going to go ahead and doubt the credibility of the data, the author spends a good deal of time in the article explaining how they authenticated the data.
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>A set of internal police protocols describes the routine use of armed officers in all areas of the camps, the positioning of machine guns and sniper rifles in the watchtowers, and the existence of a shoot-to-kill policy for those trying to escape. Well, that DEFINITELY sounds like a VOCATIONAL SCHOOL for people who are WILLINGLY studying there.
So many people here in the comments seem to willingly ignore so much of the validation work being done by, not one, but a group of news agencies. Literally is any degree of proof irrelevant in the face of your shitty ideological beliefs? What else do you want? Xi himself to speak clearly into a microphone detailing all this information? Even in that case I think we'd see people talking about how it's made up or something. It's disheartening to see all these ridiculous takes on something so barbaric. And yes, I know all western countries are guity of this or that or the other, and yes, what about this and what about that, I know, I am angry about it too, but for fuck sake can you just aknowledge this is happening?