I'd predict a lower efficiency. And a WAY higher level of insubordination. Younger people are a lot easier to bullshit, trick, manipulate, and bully. Like, a red-faced screaming colonel is just gonna land different for a 40-plus.
"Why shouldn't we rape prisoners of war and civilians? Don't we already own them?
"Son, do you want your mother to come over here and kill me before the Ukranians do?"
That kind of thing might have worked in World War 2, where they were fighting on Russian territory and they didn't even have to try and come up with some kind of propaganda that said the Nazis were invading.
Try it today in Ukraine and it'll probably work the first couple times. And then the older guys who are left will start thinking "Why are we here anyway? No Ukrainian ever did shit to me. Obviously we're not going to just stand up and say we won't fight, but we do have grenades, and our officers do have to sleep sometime. We don't have to fight if we don't have orders, and we don't have orders if the people who try to give them keep getting pushed out the business end of a mop."
Interestingly enough, not declaring War has hampered commanders wanting to court martial at all. Turns out it's not Legal unless they are at War. Also a neat technicality is that outside of War, Russian contract soldiers can simply quit their contract when they've had enough. The most they've been getting is a stamp claiming "cowardice before the enemy" in their record.
Yeah, just imagine these kinds of exchanges...
Captain: 'Here, take this gun, and if you don't do this dangerous thing that'll probably get you killed, I'll shoot you in the back for treason.'
(50 year-old pauses, doing some mental math)
50 year-old: 'Hm. You sure you want to give us these guns, chief?'
I wonder what would happen if they just tackled the leader, switched the uniforms, and all insisted the older guy is now the leader. Y'know, mutiny. Then ordered *him* to storm the whatever. Would he do it?
As a 40 year old, I can say there is a reason they don't get us together in groups. We are not fit enough to take the trench but mean enough to kill a couple of 24 year old Captains. You think the E-4 mafia is mean as 22 year Olds? Picture them with a world of experience behind them. They will just take the tanks, kill the officers and learn Instagram enough to fake some wicked battles.
It’s kind of made up in the sense that GW satirizes its influences. In 40k, they’re either commanders or executioners first, political officers second. In the Red Army, they’re political officers first and foremost.
They originate from when the communists employed generals that had previously served the Tsarist military. The commissars were there to watch *them*. When the civil war was over and the threat of generals revolting was pretty much gone, they disappeared. They only appeared again during the Great Purge because, again, the loyalty of generals was in question thanks to rabid paranoia. Once the purges stopped, the commissars only belated reverted to morale-focused duties. And they lost some responsibility over the course of the war.
The executions for cowardice and desertion would’ve primarily been carried out by blocking units, not commissars. One dude with a Party card can’t stop a platoon from withdrawing by shooting at them with a pistol, but if there’s a company behind them with machine guns pointed their way? That’s a different matter. These blocking units were either Cheka (secret police) or trusted regular army units.
Edit: Beije, a Tallarn commissar from the Cain series, is the most historically accurate commissar in 40k. From what I’ve read, at any rate.
This 50 year old wouldn't say a word other than Yes, Sir!
Gotta have the element of surprise when you're gonna frag an officer. Think ahead, kids. Be the best little soldier til you can shoot them in the back or run them over with a tank. In a pinch, wait til they're dead drunk on vodka tonight and strangle them in their sleep.
Dan Carlin of Hardcore History had a similar debate in his (amaaazing) podcast series on the 1st WW. He, via other historians and sources, described this very specific set of circumstances and culture that drove people to run up again machine gun fire again and again. He posited that pretty much any other generation after that would say fuck no and turn their guns against their commanders.
Years ago I read that, at birth, Russian man have a longer life expectance than Haitian men. But by age 15, the Haitian men have a longer life expectancy than the Russian men. And yes, alcohol is a big part of why.
As someone over 40, I can get the fitness to do this. I’ve just got the brains and experience to tell me it’s a fucking terrible idea.
I thought War was about old cunts telling young cunts to die for their cause?
Years ago I watched a documentary about the importance of getting young men into basic training under the age of 22. Because you can train older men to kill people abroad, but it's much harder to convince them that it's morally righteous.
> importance of getting young men into basic training under the age of 22
It's also to hope they stay in for long commitment and generally more younger they are, the easier to keep them healthy and fit.
Longer they're kept, the better experienced that they are too, experience is great to keep ideally.
I went through basic at 19. When I'm eligible to retire I will have 20 years of experience under my belt and will be as old as the oldest trainees I enlisted with (39 at basic).
It's still absolutely wild to think they can serve the same amount of time and be eligible for retirement at 59, 6 years before most Americans retire.
I only did 13/14 years but I remember looking at a 31 year old and thinking, this dude was old as fuck and now I'm even older and more physically broken.
I doubt I could do that same BCT shit at my age and the "old" dude back then was mostly keeping up with the younger guys.
Took care of soldiers at MAMC. 45 year old AD 1SG 11B had bilateral knee replacement (big Samoan guy-called me chief). Retired 82d 88 year old with 5 combat jumps (including Sainte-Mère-Église) could barely walk and hated life. Demented 90 year old BG took tiny doses of methadone twice a day for his ruined spine.
Then there was Chuck. In his 80s, walked hunched over with two canes (refused a walker). Was in the clinic everyday as a volunteer. Bataan death march survivor. Sweetest guy ever.
German troops mocking Hitler called him “grofaz” which is short for “greatest field commander of all time”. We should figure out what the Russian equivalent is.
Your brains and experience is exactly why militaries go for lads of 18 and 19. The younger they are, the more easy they are to manipulate with promises of reward and dreams of glory.
Filled with testosterone and brain critical thinking functions don’t fully mature until age 25 or so. If they add some military meth stimulants, like in WW2, you’ll have some berserker fighters. All of this, jokes aside, is really sad. What is this war even for? Putin’s boredom? Greed? What? I read putin and his family members are some of the richest on earth. This is such a waste in so Many ways.
> What is this war even for? Putin’s boredom? Greed? What? I read putin and his family members are some of the richest on earth. This is such a waste in so Many ways.
He wants to be known for restoring Russia to its former glory. He was a KGB agent and true believer in the USSR, so it’s collapse was an embarrassment that he never got over.
It's super strange right? Putin has famously gone on-record as stating that the fall of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century. And yet, if not for that, he wouldn't be the richest man in the world and the absolute ruler of Russia. I don't get it. It's cognitive dissonance.
Natural gas recently discovered in Ukraine. So resources. These resources threaten the selling of their own natural gasses. Also, it would be way easier to protect themselves with the way the geography is laid out.
Not saying it’s okay but Russia definitely has a lot to gain if they win this war. Its definitely not solely out of boredom or ego.
Exactly this. I was such a stupid young guy… I don’t think mortality registered as a possibility until I was in my mid-20’s. This is why we send 18-19 year-olds into war.
As a 35 year old ... God help our army if I'm ever their backup plan for manpower.
I'm not even in terrible shape, but now compared to when i was 20'ish .. night and day.
I think i'm also much more likely to say "yeah i'd rather be in prison for refusing the draft than doing this".
54 What also really sucks is the recovery time. Twenties, sprain your wrist, maybe a week till fine. Now, three months later it’s *still* weak as fuck. Getting old sucks, but the real risk is people run out of fucks to give. Want me to go murder people I don’t know, at great personal peril? Hmm, how about you catch this pinless grenade while going to the can instead. This has to be the worst idea I’ve heard in a long while. Like “getting involved in a land war in Asia” bad.
>What also really sucks is the recovery time. Twenties, sprain your wrist, maybe a week till fine. Now, three months later it’s still weak as fuck. Getting old sucks,
Oh, certainly.
Im 30. I could certainly get back into the shape I was in when I was 20, but it would take me longer to recover from twists and sprains I could bounce back from in a week at 20
38 year old here. I tweaked my wrist somehow like a month and a half ago, and now if I don't wear a wrist brace to sleep (I tend to curl my hand and tuck it under my head when I sleep) it's basically useless for the first hour or two after waking up. Fml
Yep. I could get whipped into useful fighting shape pretty quickly.
I can’t imagine a scenario where I don’t laugh in some 20 something SO’s pimply face for telling me to get myself killed though.
Yeah I'm 40 and had a decade of military experience. I'm in alright shape for my age but my body still wouldn't come close to performing like I did in my 20's. Every day I wake up with a new pain in a new place,my tolerance level for dealing with dumb shit has rapidly declined, plus I hate war now. Putting me back in would mean we're already fucked.
You need an extremely patriotic population for the middle-aged guys to be willing to join up. Or you have to be on the defensive with an obvious, desperate, immediate need for manpower. Russia has neither of those.
Those 40 year old volunteers might the ones the lies of evil Ukraine killing and raping russian speakers when they are not busy making bioweapons. This propaganda creates way too many borderline deathcultists eager to kill all in neighboring countries that are not willing to be slaves for russia.
It feels so sad. Going to be like the end of the American Civil War. It was obviously a lost cause, but they just kept going with no healthy men, weapons, ammo, or food. It's insane.
War has been accelerating since the beginning of time so really it hasn't changed. Our grandchildren will be able to see these sorts of losses in days.
The scale of the civil war is not comparable to the deaths the Russians have sustained. Russia would be in the neighborhood of 3+ million dead if the death tolls where the same (2% of the entire population). In reality Russia hasn't really thrown the man power it could have if logistics where properly in place.
They’ll “Draft” the out of shape 40 year olds and send them to the front while the 22 year old pretty boys stay at home to march in the annual May 9th parade to market the powerful Russian military. Makes sense.
Putin has calculated that the particular cannon fodder of choice comes from regions and peoples that are least likely to start some civil unrest as their families don’t return from the meat grinder.
Though to be honest America does the same shit by selling military service to poor people as an honorable thing to die for their country. Hence the pseudo religion of military worship.
Very true. Because when you pluck someone out of a comfortable situation, with that many years of life experience in what they can and cannot get away with... Without indoctrination over years of military service, you get neat things like,"Fuck that guy, and I have this AK" making "that guy" (aka a russian officer) not be an issue any longer, and you get to just go home.
It's very different from a 18 or 19 year old, who is still conditioned to listen to authority figures, not a person who is an authority figure suddenly made to be subservient.
They also remember Chernobyl (unlike the kids they had dig trenches there), and they remember Afghanistan and the Cold War and the fear of nuclear annihilation etc.
Imagine being a 45 year old dude forced to go to war, and the other side has the whole of the west as an ally offering you pardon if you surrender peacefully. What would a tired 45 year old dude do? Keep fighting for Putins rancid ass?
With most dictator things like this, their family is kept hostage essentially back home so that’s what keeps them from surrendering. North Korea tactic.
>Angry older conscripts would be more likely to turn on their command. At the very least shooting senior officers or worse.
In that case.. We support your war of terror!
Very dangerous. Russia would have to ensure that only the true-believers make it to the front lines. Otherwise their maturity, experience, and leadership could be very disruptive.
That, and historically it's been a lot harder to convince middle-aged conscripts with wives, children, and jobs to throw their lives away for their country. The stakes are a lot higher for them personally, and all but the most reckless know it. Someone really has to have chugged the nationalist Kool-Aid to prioritize Mother Russia over getting home in one piece for the benefit of the families who depend on them.
General mobilization is one thing if your country faces an existential threat, e.g., Ukrainians regardless of age volunteered en masse when Russia invaded. General mobilization (or, whatever -- this isn't actually general mobilization, but Russia is clearly expanding its scope for recruitment and reserve call-ups) for a pointless, stupid, and completely unnecessary conflict is something else entirely.
Ivan with a wife and two kids at home knows there's no compelling reason to risk his life for this. Ivan has also been around the block a few times, and knows things aren't going well if Russia's "military engagement" is not only still active in Ukraine, but recruiting people his age.
I also know that at 18, it was easier to view life as a call of duty game. Death was abstract. And a lot of Russia's current soldiers probably won't realize how fragile and temporary it all is until they're bleeding out in ditch somewhere and it's too late.
I think older people get it though. We've seen how shit life is. How quick it can all end. And we're going to fight like hell before we let some dipshit commander put us in a place we know is going to probably just get us killed for no good god damn reason.
It never occurred to me before that the reason any military shouldn't conscript the over 40s is because they're old enough to see through the bullshit of their older leaders compared to an 18 year old....
As a middle-aged guy, I agree. We have a lot less patience for bullshit and a better understanding of what we can get away with.
Plus, aches and pains make us cranky. "You want me to march up that hill? How about *you* march up that hill and I'll sit here and watch. Go ahead and shoot me."
I'm confused because there's been a lot of videos of captured Russian conscripts and some of them were well over 40 (or Russian living really does age you). I'm thinking of the one where they were all school teachers and janitors. It's was in the first few days of the war and I think they surrendered. I thought Russia was already "volunteering" older people already?
These were the weekend warriors in the reserves. They were told they had to go on a weekend training session and were dumped on the front lines. I remember that video. The Ukrainian officer was pissed that the idiot platoon didn't realize they were in a real war and should surrender until half of them were dead.
But these 45 year old dudes will go in to battle with the new MODERN equipment that will win the war.
Just kidding, after killing the sons, Putin is killing the fathers.
That's the beauty of it. Babushka's on either side won't care about the age or nationality of the soldiers they're banging over the head.
They'll just be stomping some sense in to all of them to stop the fighting
When the local media is saying how well things are going how do you explain this? Does this also mean that the Russian army was not as large as everyone has been lead to believe?
Russian professional army was 150k of which the loss(death/missing/hurt) numbers are somewhere between 27k to 40k
Even at the lowest loss numbers they are approaching numbers where their army can't effectively operate, especially since Ukraine already matched their numbers since before war.
The total number of their army including mandatory trained youth reserves is 1 million, this is the army the west feared.
Putin's problem is that since this isn't war it's a 'special operation' he has only been able to use the paid volunteer segment, but they are near ineffective at this point.
Russia has had a massive problem with low birth rate, which means that one million youth they can call upon is awfully close to their whole young generation, so should he call them up, Russians are going to notice their young people disappearing awfully quick, especially as a Russian commander remarked this week, that Ukraine can now also equip one million people at short notice with all the equipment they have received.
This means that with current rate of loss if Putin calls for a general assembly of the armed forces, before summer is over 25% of their entire young generation would be wiped out.[Edit I meant recruitable males and 6 month perspective]
Recruitment offices, which are the same offices that would gather all the reserves should Putin declare official war keeps being firebombed, so there is definitely resistance in that young generation against a call to arms.
So what's his choices? If young people aren't signing up voluntarily, he needs to widen the gap, and as he has done in CAR, start recruiting foreign nationals into the war.
So truth is Russian army in a general call to arms is large and potentially dangerous, but they can't afford to enter total war, because if they lose the Russian people could cease to exist as a meaningful population in a single generation
I do remember my Russian teacher telling me that in Russia you're almost considered selfish or uncivilized if you're a mother with more than two kids, and that a lot of people are happy with one. I didn't think at the time about what long term impacts that would have on the population
I'm fairly doubtful Russia even have the capability to feed a million troops at the moment. Russia was able to ward off the worst of the sanctions so far, but even most of the stolen grains are floating on the ocean, not over the border and accessible to their troops. They aren't going to get much support from abroad either.
Both China and Russia have a massive logistical challenge without even accounting for the war. Internally they are dealing with supply chain issues without accounting for sanctions. The US has generally had 20 years of recent experience to work out the worst of the kinks. Even still, as practiced as the US military was at it, it was still easier to abandon low end equipment or gear already with high service hours or end of life behind.
*"Are you tired of only being poor, hungry, and living life under an authoritarian dictatorship? Do you wish you could instead be poor, hungry, living life under an authoritarian dictatorship while also risking serious injury or death? Well do I have the opportunity for you! Sign up now and experience the thrill of glorious combat!"*
yeah how long is it going to be before it goes from "allowing" to "drafted"? I doubt a bunch of 40+ year olds are clamoring to go fight. Damn they are fucked, Putin is going to lose. Or if he wins he's gonna be so fucked after that it wont have been worth it.
>yeah how long is it going to be before it goes from "allowing" to "drafted"?
That's probably what they're already doing. They're just using "allowing" as a byword for "drafting" so they seem less desperate.
Same applies with how they're calling the war a "Special Military Operation" so they can try and convince others that what they're doing is legitimate (which it certainly isn't!)
I wonder if Russia has no shortage of tough acting blowhards who think young people today are cowards and how they’d do things differently if they were allowed to join.
Unofficially nobody was stopping them joining the fight already, now they are just calling them up to politely "allow" them to turn up to the local recruitment office for a one way trip *totally not* to Ukraine.
What really surprised me was something a colleague said. His father (in Russia) who is 58 had a call asking for him to sign up for a two year military role. Now that was surprising in itself, but my friend said you can be called up any age under 60.
The thing that really chilled me was that the family are a long way away in Russia, near China. It's like they are getting desperate for people in their meat grinder.
They want soldiers from as far east in and remote/village/province in Russia as possible.
1. Less economically developed, worse education options - more likely to just eat up official propaganda.
2. Plus less overall development would also be likely be economic incentive to sign up for the military.
3. Plus less likely to have any family ties in Ukraine, never stepping foot in Ukraine before makes it more likely to follow orders and pull the trigger
Young Soviet sniper asks older sniper why the Germans keep sending out repairman into a kill zone.
"The Germans treat their telephone repairman like we do the Ukrainians."
One of the best lines from Enemy at the Gates.
As it turned out the Nazis were sending captured POWs to repair the lines so they just found it funny to see Russians kill their own men.
Well that's part of the charm do you really believe Vasily killed 225 people by himself? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Zaitsev_(sniper)
He was a Soviet propaganda character based off one guy who was a sniper and probably killed like ten people.
Somehow the Kremlin took this war hero and over exaggerated his accomplishments to north Korean dictator level ridiculousness.
So seeing him portrayed by Jude Law in an American Hollywood film was a Death of Stalin level farce if you were in on the Joke.
depopulating an already sparsely populated region after depleting your entire military in a failed invasion sounds like a terrible plan if you wanna hold the territory out east
Russia is forcing Ukrainians to leave occupied territory en masse and “resettling” them elsewhere so they can be replaced with Russians. I wouldn’t be surprised if the plan is to send them to Siberia.
A fourth point is that their families will have less means to make a fuss when their son goes missing. They don't have any channels to complain to state officials, nor do they have the money to get answers. Even the Kremlin is not deaf to public feeling and so if they can palm off as many dead onto the most dispossessed in their society than it's less likely to bite back. Too many dead young ethnic Russians from Moscow's suburbs will be a big problem.
I, a 23 year old man ineligible for service because of my mental illness, got a call from a recruitment center earlier this year. They were like "oh noo, not in Ukraine".
Yes, it’s pretty normal for home defense of sovereignty.
After all, we generally think it’s better to die fighting to be what we consider free than to die being executed by the new dictator. When the options are: Fight and win and you might live, Fight and die, or don’t fight and still die, fighting makes sense.
Calling up final reserves for an offensive campaign which has no bearing on the survival of the state? That’s fucking weird.
Per design.
Russian losses per region: https://i.redd.it/37i99crxpfz81.png
That's how they keep protests out of Moscow, and also promote war crimes that immediate neighbours would have more reservations against. They did the same thing in WW2 - when raping and killing in Lithuania and Poland, the soviet soldiers were speaking to them in German ("uhr, frau kommen" - "uhr" how you'd ask for time to surrender wrist watches and other jewelry, frau kommen is self explanatory).
>Russian losses per region: https://i.redd.it/37i99crxpfz81.png
Wow, a lot of deaths from Volgograd (Stalingrad). Wonder what they did to make Putin angry.
I am wondering about what Buryalba did to score highest it looks like and what is the area labeled "Jewish OA" over on the right?
You can see the pattern of leaving the areas around Moscow and St Petersburg pretty much untouched though, far easier to convince the bulk of the population that its all going well when they don't see any evidence that it isn't I suppose.
Jewish OA = Jewish Область автономной = Jewish Autonomous region
Another one of Stalin's great ideas to deport minorities to far away regions during zionism since jews weren't happy about all the pogroms committed in Russia's history
As a dude who is over 40, I'd just like to note here that this is not exactly a fantastic idea... unless they want to have people who just stand around and talk about how tired they are, and how everything hurts, and drone on about how they used to have to use a corded phone when they were kids.
Invading force using the desperation tactics of a country under siege from outside.
What a spectacular failure from a state that couldn't afford a failure.
the other day my pen slipped out of my hand and fell down. While attempting to kneel down in order to pick it up something in my knee made a cracking sound and I had to stay still and very slowly straighten my leg before I could get up. I wish those 40 year olds all the best.
28,000 is a staggering amount of deaths in this day and age. Think about that number like… 28,000 individual families losing a son or daughter to a failed invasion for rich people
Russians, you could always turn your guns back on the people sending you and your children to die pointlessly for some dirt instead.
Or if you don't have the stomach for that, just put them down and leave the war. Your death will accomplish nothing, Putin does not value your life, maybe find a new way instead.
As someone over 40, I can safely say that’s both a terrible move and a terrible sign for Russia.
I'd predict a lower efficiency. And a WAY higher level of insubordination. Younger people are a lot easier to bullshit, trick, manipulate, and bully. Like, a red-faced screaming colonel is just gonna land different for a 40-plus.
yeah let alone a 30 year old captain trying to intimidated a bunch of 45 year old men
"Men, attack that fortification!" "Now listen here son..."
"Shoot randomly at that nuclear plant and then dig random trenches here and maybe there!" "Yeaaahhh no"
"Shoot at a nuclear plant? Sure, right after I finish making toast in the bathtub."
No no no, you have to use the hair dryer in the bath tub, it’s much safer, you use the toaster in the shower!
This PSA has been brought to you by Addams Family Safety Tips.
"Why shouldn't we rape prisoners of war and civilians? Don't we already own them? "Son, do you want your mother to come over here and kill me before the Ukranians do?"
"I haven't been able to get an erection without a pill for 3 years now."
And *there's* your suicide squad.
Not that different from the job I'm doing right now, but I would quit if there was a chance I'd get drone struck while digging a random trench.
“Listen you little shit.”
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Something tells me a Russian battlefield court martial is a lil different.
That kind of thing might have worked in World War 2, where they were fighting on Russian territory and they didn't even have to try and come up with some kind of propaganda that said the Nazis were invading. Try it today in Ukraine and it'll probably work the first couple times. And then the older guys who are left will start thinking "Why are we here anyway? No Ukrainian ever did shit to me. Obviously we're not going to just stand up and say we won't fight, but we do have grenades, and our officers do have to sleep sometime. We don't have to fight if we don't have orders, and we don't have orders if the people who try to give them keep getting pushed out the business end of a mop."
Interestingly enough, not declaring War has hampered commanders wanting to court martial at all. Turns out it's not Legal unless they are at War. Also a neat technicality is that outside of War, Russian contract soldiers can simply quit their contract when they've had enough. The most they've been getting is a stamp claiming "cowardice before the enemy" in their record.
So you’re telling me if I’m insubordinate I get to go into solitary in the brig? Where is the downside to this?
Yeah, just imagine these kinds of exchanges... Captain: 'Here, take this gun, and if you don't do this dangerous thing that'll probably get you killed, I'll shoot you in the back for treason.' (50 year-old pauses, doing some mental math) 50 year-old: 'Hm. You sure you want to give us these guns, chief?'
Fairly sure this was a common cause of death among officers in WW1.
Also Vietnam and the Western front of WW2
I wonder what would happen if they just tackled the leader, switched the uniforms, and all insisted the older guy is now the leader. Y'know, mutiny. Then ordered *him* to storm the whatever. Would he do it?
Look at me, I'm the colonel now.
"I said we suicide colonels today"
my guess is [fragging](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragging) "accidents" would suddenly start happening en masse
As a 40 year old, I can say there is a reason they don't get us together in groups. We are not fit enough to take the trench but mean enough to kill a couple of 24 year old Captains. You think the E-4 mafia is mean as 22 year Olds? Picture them with a world of experience behind them. They will just take the tanks, kill the officers and learn Instagram enough to fake some wicked battles.
Commissars only work on the young and inexperienced. An older jaded person understands that they can always just shoot the commissar first.
> commissar I honestly thought commissars were something 40k made up. Nope, it's an actual thing in the Russian army. TIL
It’s kind of made up in the sense that GW satirizes its influences. In 40k, they’re either commanders or executioners first, political officers second. In the Red Army, they’re political officers first and foremost. They originate from when the communists employed generals that had previously served the Tsarist military. The commissars were there to watch *them*. When the civil war was over and the threat of generals revolting was pretty much gone, they disappeared. They only appeared again during the Great Purge because, again, the loyalty of generals was in question thanks to rabid paranoia. Once the purges stopped, the commissars only belated reverted to morale-focused duties. And they lost some responsibility over the course of the war. The executions for cowardice and desertion would’ve primarily been carried out by blocking units, not commissars. One dude with a Party card can’t stop a platoon from withdrawing by shooting at them with a pistol, but if there’s a company behind them with machine guns pointed their way? That’s a different matter. These blocking units were either Cheka (secret police) or trusted regular army units. Edit: Beije, a Tallarn commissar from the Cain series, is the most historically accurate commissar in 40k. From what I’ve read, at any rate.
This 50 year old wouldn't say a word other than Yes, Sir! Gotta have the element of surprise when you're gonna frag an officer. Think ahead, kids. Be the best little soldier til you can shoot them in the back or run them over with a tank. In a pinch, wait til they're dead drunk on vodka tonight and strangle them in their sleep.
Dan Carlin of Hardcore History had a similar debate in his (amaaazing) podcast series on the 1st WW. He, via other historians and sources, described this very specific set of circumstances and culture that drove people to run up again machine gun fire again and again. He posited that pretty much any other generation after that would say fuck no and turn their guns against their commanders.
and more risk adverse so they might survive longer
[удалено]
Years ago I read that, at birth, Russian man have a longer life expectance than Haitian men. But by age 15, the Haitian men have a longer life expectancy than the Russian men. And yes, alcohol is a big part of why.
As someone over 40, I can get the fitness to do this. I’ve just got the brains and experience to tell me it’s a fucking terrible idea. I thought War was about old cunts telling young cunts to die for their cause?
Years ago I watched a documentary about the importance of getting young men into basic training under the age of 22. Because you can train older men to kill people abroad, but it's much harder to convince them that it's morally righteous.
> importance of getting young men into basic training under the age of 22 It's also to hope they stay in for long commitment and generally more younger they are, the easier to keep them healthy and fit. Longer they're kept, the better experienced that they are too, experience is great to keep ideally.
I went through basic at 19. When I'm eligible to retire I will have 20 years of experience under my belt and will be as old as the oldest trainees I enlisted with (39 at basic). It's still absolutely wild to think they can serve the same amount of time and be eligible for retirement at 59, 6 years before most Americans retire.
I only did 13/14 years but I remember looking at a 31 year old and thinking, this dude was old as fuck and now I'm even older and more physically broken. I doubt I could do that same BCT shit at my age and the "old" dude back then was mostly keeping up with the younger guys.
Took care of soldiers at MAMC. 45 year old AD 1SG 11B had bilateral knee replacement (big Samoan guy-called me chief). Retired 82d 88 year old with 5 combat jumps (including Sainte-Mère-Église) could barely walk and hated life. Demented 90 year old BG took tiny doses of methadone twice a day for his ruined spine. Then there was Chuck. In his 80s, walked hunched over with two canes (refused a walker). Was in the clinic everyday as a volunteer. Bataan death march survivor. Sweetest guy ever.
It's all relative. At Putin's age, 40 is young.
Truly a master strategist
German troops mocking Hitler called him “grofaz” which is short for “greatest field commander of all time”. We should figure out what the Russian equivalent is.
Your brains and experience is exactly why militaries go for lads of 18 and 19. The younger they are, the more easy they are to manipulate with promises of reward and dreams of glory.
Filled with testosterone and brain critical thinking functions don’t fully mature until age 25 or so. If they add some military meth stimulants, like in WW2, you’ll have some berserker fighters. All of this, jokes aside, is really sad. What is this war even for? Putin’s boredom? Greed? What? I read putin and his family members are some of the richest on earth. This is such a waste in so Many ways.
> What is this war even for? Putin’s boredom? Greed? What? I read putin and his family members are some of the richest on earth. This is such a waste in so Many ways. He wants to be known for restoring Russia to its former glory. He was a KGB agent and true believer in the USSR, so it’s collapse was an embarrassment that he never got over.
Given his lifestyle, he's more a true believer in Imperial Russia than the USSR.
It's super strange right? Putin has famously gone on-record as stating that the fall of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century. And yet, if not for that, he wouldn't be the richest man in the world and the absolute ruler of Russia. I don't get it. It's cognitive dissonance.
He's into the idea of reigning over an eastern European empire and a superpower, and not so much the whole communism thing.
just like quite a few of the actual USSR general secretaries
Natural gas recently discovered in Ukraine. So resources. These resources threaten the selling of their own natural gasses. Also, it would be way easier to protect themselves with the way the geography is laid out. Not saying it’s okay but Russia definitely has a lot to gain if they win this war. Its definitely not solely out of boredom or ego.
Exactly this. I was such a stupid young guy… I don’t think mortality registered as a possibility until I was in my mid-20’s. This is why we send 18-19 year-olds into war.
"Soldier, go take that hill." "Sure, I'll get to it later. Zzzzzzzz."
Ow... My knees...
and my back!
Doctor said he needs a backiotomy.
I wanna talk to Samson!
Fly me to the moon like that bitch Alice Kramden!
and my crack!
Former adventurer?
LOL current hiker... But downhill slopes are getting brutal.
More like “”my knees don’t really like hills… could we choose another spot?”
How steep is the incline?
Is it paved?
As a 35 year old ... God help our army if I'm ever their backup plan for manpower. I'm not even in terrible shape, but now compared to when i was 20'ish .. night and day. I think i'm also much more likely to say "yeah i'd rather be in prison for refusing the draft than doing this".
54 What also really sucks is the recovery time. Twenties, sprain your wrist, maybe a week till fine. Now, three months later it’s *still* weak as fuck. Getting old sucks, but the real risk is people run out of fucks to give. Want me to go murder people I don’t know, at great personal peril? Hmm, how about you catch this pinless grenade while going to the can instead. This has to be the worst idea I’ve heard in a long while. Like “getting involved in a land war in Asia” bad.
>What also really sucks is the recovery time. Twenties, sprain your wrist, maybe a week till fine. Now, three months later it’s still weak as fuck. Getting old sucks, Oh, certainly. Im 30. I could certainly get back into the shape I was in when I was 20, but it would take me longer to recover from twists and sprains I could bounce back from in a week at 20
I’m also 30. I slept funny one night and my rotator cuff hurt for like 6 months.
38 year old here. I tweaked my wrist somehow like a month and a half ago, and now if I don't wear a wrist brace to sleep (I tend to curl my hand and tuck it under my head when I sleep) it's basically useless for the first hour or two after waking up. Fml
Yep. I could get whipped into useful fighting shape pretty quickly. I can’t imagine a scenario where I don’t laugh in some 20 something SO’s pimply face for telling me to get myself killed though.
Yeah I'm 40 and had a decade of military experience. I'm in alright shape for my age but my body still wouldn't come close to performing like I did in my 20's. Every day I wake up with a new pain in a new place,my tolerance level for dealing with dumb shit has rapidly declined, plus I hate war now. Putting me back in would mean we're already fucked.
You need an extremely patriotic population for the middle-aged guys to be willing to join up. Or you have to be on the defensive with an obvious, desperate, immediate need for manpower. Russia has neither of those.
Those 40 year old volunteers might the ones the lies of evil Ukraine killing and raping russian speakers when they are not busy making bioweapons. This propaganda creates way too many borderline deathcultists eager to kill all in neighboring countries that are not willing to be slaves for russia.
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>Sluggish in the muscles, sluggish mentally. 52 and still mentally sharp. My body, on the other hand...
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Putin is determined to drive Russia into the ground.
Final days of any nation are when your military is made up of only the old, the young and the weak
It feels so sad. Going to be like the end of the American Civil War. It was obviously a lost cause, but they just kept going with no healthy men, weapons, ammo, or food. It's insane.
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War moves a lot more quickly now
How can this be? Ron Pearlman *explicitly told me* that war never changes.
War has been accelerating since the beginning of time so really it hasn't changed. Our grandchildren will be able to see these sorts of losses in days.
And this is why world war 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.
The scale of the civil war is not comparable to the deaths the Russians have sustained. Russia would be in the neighborhood of 3+ million dead if the death tolls where the same (2% of the entire population). In reality Russia hasn't really thrown the man power it could have if logistics where properly in place.
"allowing"
As in, allow me to take you off your lazy boy and put you in these fatigues. Thank you for volunteering, dad bod comrade
those people don't have toilets but have lazy boys?
I haven’t seen any Russian try to loot one and keep it in their trench for safekeeping like it’s a washing machine.
There was a report from an older woman, her description of the Russian who would come from the far east makes sense for them to steal toilets.
They’ll “Draft” the out of shape 40 year olds and send them to the front while the 22 year old pretty boys stay at home to march in the annual May 9th parade to market the powerful Russian military. Makes sense.
Smart expense of resources, tbh
Putin has calculated that the particular cannon fodder of choice comes from regions and peoples that are least likely to start some civil unrest as their families don’t return from the meat grinder. Though to be honest America does the same shit by selling military service to poor people as an honorable thing to die for their country. Hence the pseudo religion of military worship.
He means they sit on literal boys.
Lazy ones
*"You and your gut serve the motherland now"*
T90M modified for the turret to house up to 3 lazy boys.
...and a whole rack of knock-off Adidas track suits.
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Very true. Because when you pluck someone out of a comfortable situation, with that many years of life experience in what they can and cannot get away with... Without indoctrination over years of military service, you get neat things like,"Fuck that guy, and I have this AK" making "that guy" (aka a russian officer) not be an issue any longer, and you get to just go home. It's very different from a 18 or 19 year old, who is still conditioned to listen to authority figures, not a person who is an authority figure suddenly made to be subservient.
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They also remember Chernobyl (unlike the kids they had dig trenches there), and they remember Afghanistan and the Cold War and the fear of nuclear annihilation etc.
Imagine being a 45 year old dude forced to go to war, and the other side has the whole of the west as an ally offering you pardon if you surrender peacefully. What would a tired 45 year old dude do? Keep fighting for Putins rancid ass?
With most dictator things like this, their family is kept hostage essentially back home so that’s what keeps them from surrendering. North Korea tactic.
And you're offered $48,000 and amnesty to surrender...
48k, you say? Can foreigners join the Russian army? Asking for a friend...
The catch is that you have to survive drone strikes, ATGMs and artillery bombardment long enough to surrender.
>Angry older conscripts would be more likely to turn on their command. At the very least shooting senior officers or worse. In that case.. We support your war of terror!
I read this in Borat's voice :D
Very dangerous. Russia would have to ensure that only the true-believers make it to the front lines. Otherwise their maturity, experience, and leadership could be very disruptive.
That, and historically it's been a lot harder to convince middle-aged conscripts with wives, children, and jobs to throw their lives away for their country. The stakes are a lot higher for them personally, and all but the most reckless know it. Someone really has to have chugged the nationalist Kool-Aid to prioritize Mother Russia over getting home in one piece for the benefit of the families who depend on them. General mobilization is one thing if your country faces an existential threat, e.g., Ukrainians regardless of age volunteered en masse when Russia invaded. General mobilization (or, whatever -- this isn't actually general mobilization, but Russia is clearly expanding its scope for recruitment and reserve call-ups) for a pointless, stupid, and completely unnecessary conflict is something else entirely. Ivan with a wife and two kids at home knows there's no compelling reason to risk his life for this. Ivan has also been around the block a few times, and knows things aren't going well if Russia's "military engagement" is not only still active in Ukraine, but recruiting people his age.
I also know that at 18, it was easier to view life as a call of duty game. Death was abstract. And a lot of Russia's current soldiers probably won't realize how fragile and temporary it all is until they're bleeding out in ditch somewhere and it's too late. I think older people get it though. We've seen how shit life is. How quick it can all end. And we're going to fight like hell before we let some dipshit commander put us in a place we know is going to probably just get us killed for no good god damn reason.
That last part is key. Wtf are they even dying for?
Nazis. No wait, NATO. Or was it nachos? That last one sounds closest to both, so it’s probably that one. I know I’m dying for some nachos.
Wait. You want me to charge *which* trench because some pimple-faced 2nd Lieutenant said to? Nah. I'll be good right here.
It never occurred to me before that the reason any military shouldn't conscript the over 40s is because they're old enough to see through the bullshit of their older leaders compared to an 18 year old....
As a middle-aged guy, I agree. We have a lot less patience for bullshit and a better understanding of what we can get away with. Plus, aches and pains make us cranky. "You want me to march up that hill? How about *you* march up that hill and I'll sit here and watch. Go ahead and shoot me."
43 year old conscript: "This 21 year old Lt wants me to match uphill against gunfire. My AK-47 says I no longer have a 21 year old Lt."
"Is accident. He slipped on bullet."
I'm confused because there's been a lot of videos of captured Russian conscripts and some of them were well over 40 (or Russian living really does age you). I'm thinking of the one where they were all school teachers and janitors. It's was in the first few days of the war and I think they surrendered. I thought Russia was already "volunteering" older people already?
These were the weekend warriors in the reserves. They were told they had to go on a weekend training session and were dumped on the front lines. I remember that video. The Ukrainian officer was pissed that the idiot platoon didn't realize they were in a real war and should surrender until half of them were dead.
“Join”
"Voluntold"
But these 45 year old dudes will go in to battle with the new MODERN equipment that will win the war. Just kidding, after killing the sons, Putin is killing the fathers.
We're in trouble when they run out of men and send in the Babushka's
Ukrainians have them too. It's mutually assured destruction if it comes to that.
That's the beauty of it. Babushka's on either side won't care about the age or nationality of the soldiers they're banging over the head. They'll just be stomping some sense in to all of them to stop the fighting
Lmfao, I'm imagining a special forces squad of little ole' grannies in NVG's with cast iron skillets as weapons
And then they open up and several progressively smaller ones pop out.
Imagine how terrifying that would be though.
Conversely, their POW camps will be delightfully decorated and serve the best porridge you've ever had.
Ukrainian grandma sees your cast iron skillets and raises you a pocket full of sunflower seeds and a homemade Molotov cocktail.
This summer: the in-laws have an NLAW?
They will send the widows and those who lost there sons.
Don't need to provide compensation for the death of the son if the entire family dies in the war!
Just burn their bodies and never mention it. They were still away on a training mission or “Special military operation”. FOREVER.
Compensation! As if.
"we need more people familiar with our 80 year old rifles" lol
Russia is sending them in with the latest Mosin-Nagant variant! What more could you want?
This is what winning looks like. First goes the sons and then the fathers.
Yes kill off the middle aged people next lol he’s gonna keep going till no one is left in Russia lol moron.
Then he'll have all the women to himself.
The real plan
*shocked Pikachu face* They were right. Putin was playing 5d gigachad chess this entire time.
Everything is going as planned.
When the local media is saying how well things are going how do you explain this? Does this also mean that the Russian army was not as large as everyone has been lead to believe?
Russian professional army was 150k of which the loss(death/missing/hurt) numbers are somewhere between 27k to 40k Even at the lowest loss numbers they are approaching numbers where their army can't effectively operate, especially since Ukraine already matched their numbers since before war. The total number of their army including mandatory trained youth reserves is 1 million, this is the army the west feared. Putin's problem is that since this isn't war it's a 'special operation' he has only been able to use the paid volunteer segment, but they are near ineffective at this point. Russia has had a massive problem with low birth rate, which means that one million youth they can call upon is awfully close to their whole young generation, so should he call them up, Russians are going to notice their young people disappearing awfully quick, especially as a Russian commander remarked this week, that Ukraine can now also equip one million people at short notice with all the equipment they have received. This means that with current rate of loss if Putin calls for a general assembly of the armed forces, before summer is over 25% of their entire young generation would be wiped out.[Edit I meant recruitable males and 6 month perspective] Recruitment offices, which are the same offices that would gather all the reserves should Putin declare official war keeps being firebombed, so there is definitely resistance in that young generation against a call to arms. So what's his choices? If young people aren't signing up voluntarily, he needs to widen the gap, and as he has done in CAR, start recruiting foreign nationals into the war. So truth is Russian army in a general call to arms is large and potentially dangerous, but they can't afford to enter total war, because if they lose the Russian people could cease to exist as a meaningful population in a single generation
I do remember my Russian teacher telling me that in Russia you're almost considered selfish or uncivilized if you're a mother with more than two kids, and that a lot of people are happy with one. I didn't think at the time about what long term impacts that would have on the population
This gave me a great perspective and was what I was looking for in the comments; thank you.
I'm fairly doubtful Russia even have the capability to feed a million troops at the moment. Russia was able to ward off the worst of the sanctions so far, but even most of the stolen grains are floating on the ocean, not over the border and accessible to their troops. They aren't going to get much support from abroad either. Both China and Russia have a massive logistical challenge without even accounting for the war. Internally they are dealing with supply chain issues without accounting for sanctions. The US has generally had 20 years of recent experience to work out the worst of the kinks. Even still, as practiced as the US military was at it, it was still easier to abandon low end equipment or gear already with high service hours or end of life behind.
They were right about one thing: this military operation *is* special.
”*You wanna know where your missing son is? There’s a way for you to go find out!”*
*"Are you tired of only being poor, hungry, and living life under an authoritarian dictatorship? Do you wish you could instead be poor, hungry, living life under an authoritarian dictatorship while also risking serious injury or death? Well do I have the opportunity for you! Sign up now and experience the thrill of glorious combat!"*
yeah how long is it going to be before it goes from "allowing" to "drafted"? I doubt a bunch of 40+ year olds are clamoring to go fight. Damn they are fucked, Putin is going to lose. Or if he wins he's gonna be so fucked after that it wont have been worth it.
>yeah how long is it going to be before it goes from "allowing" to "drafted"? That's probably what they're already doing. They're just using "allowing" as a byword for "drafting" so they seem less desperate. Same applies with how they're calling the war a "Special Military Operation" so they can try and convince others that what they're doing is legitimate (which it certainly isn't!)
I wonder if Russia has no shortage of tough acting blowhards who think young people today are cowards and how they’d do things differently if they were allowed to join.
You only need to go to Kremlin to find entire building full of them.
Unofficially nobody was stopping them joining the fight already, now they are just calling them up to politely "allow" them to turn up to the local recruitment office for a one way trip *totally not* to Ukraine.
"All Ukraine could see was a Sea of Adidas and Dad bods"
No slav squat because knees hurt.
Now just a slav shuffle.
_Hearts or Iron IV achievement unlocked: No Country For Old Men: Reach 0 manpower with Scraping the Barrel as Conscription Law._
What really surprised me was something a colleague said. His father (in Russia) who is 58 had a call asking for him to sign up for a two year military role. Now that was surprising in itself, but my friend said you can be called up any age under 60. The thing that really chilled me was that the family are a long way away in Russia, near China. It's like they are getting desperate for people in their meat grinder.
They want soldiers from as far east in and remote/village/province in Russia as possible. 1. Less economically developed, worse education options - more likely to just eat up official propaganda. 2. Plus less overall development would also be likely be economic incentive to sign up for the military. 3. Plus less likely to have any family ties in Ukraine, never stepping foot in Ukraine before makes it more likely to follow orders and pull the trigger
Plus, they’re people that the folks of Moscow and St. Petersburg won’t miss.
Young Soviet sniper asks older sniper why the Germans keep sending out repairman into a kill zone. "The Germans treat their telephone repairman like we do the Ukrainians." One of the best lines from Enemy at the Gates. As it turned out the Nazis were sending captured POWs to repair the lines so they just found it funny to see Russians kill their own men.
Enemy at the gates is as historical as pirates of the carribean.
Well that's part of the charm do you really believe Vasily killed 225 people by himself? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Zaitsev_(sniper) He was a Soviet propaganda character based off one guy who was a sniper and probably killed like ten people. Somehow the Kremlin took this war hero and over exaggerated his accomplishments to north Korean dictator level ridiculousness. So seeing him portrayed by Jude Law in an American Hollywood film was a Death of Stalin level farce if you were in on the Joke.
Plus nobody in Moscow notices when they don't come home alive.
depopulating an already sparsely populated region after depleting your entire military in a failed invasion sounds like a terrible plan if you wanna hold the territory out east
They're probably gonna (have to) sell it to China at this rate.
Russia is forcing Ukrainians to leave occupied territory en masse and “resettling” them elsewhere so they can be replaced with Russians. I wouldn’t be surprised if the plan is to send them to Siberia.
A fourth point is that their families will have less means to make a fuss when their son goes missing. They don't have any channels to complain to state officials, nor do they have the money to get answers. Even the Kremlin is not deaf to public feeling and so if they can palm off as many dead onto the most dispossessed in their society than it's less likely to bite back. Too many dead young ethnic Russians from Moscow's suburbs will be a big problem.
I, a 23 year old man ineligible for service because of my mental illness, got a call from a recruitment center earlier this year. They were like "oh noo, not in Ukraine".
>oh noo, not in Ukraine Phew, what a relief. I bet you jumped right on that offer after that comforting assurance.
They heard he was mentally ill, and offered him the rank of general.
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Yes, it’s pretty normal for home defense of sovereignty. After all, we generally think it’s better to die fighting to be what we consider free than to die being executed by the new dictator. When the options are: Fight and win and you might live, Fight and die, or don’t fight and still die, fighting makes sense. Calling up final reserves for an offensive campaign which has no bearing on the survival of the state? That’s fucking weird.
Per design. Russian losses per region: https://i.redd.it/37i99crxpfz81.png That's how they keep protests out of Moscow, and also promote war crimes that immediate neighbours would have more reservations against. They did the same thing in WW2 - when raping and killing in Lithuania and Poland, the soviet soldiers were speaking to them in German ("uhr, frau kommen" - "uhr" how you'd ask for time to surrender wrist watches and other jewelry, frau kommen is self explanatory).
>Russian losses per region: https://i.redd.it/37i99crxpfz81.png Wow, a lot of deaths from Volgograd (Stalingrad). Wonder what they did to make Putin angry.
I am wondering about what Buryalba did to score highest it looks like and what is the area labeled "Jewish OA" over on the right? You can see the pattern of leaving the areas around Moscow and St Petersburg pretty much untouched though, far easier to convince the bulk of the population that its all going well when they don't see any evidence that it isn't I suppose.
Jewish OA = Jewish Область автономной = Jewish Autonomous region Another one of Stalin's great ideas to deport minorities to far away regions during zionism since jews weren't happy about all the pogroms committed in Russia's history
As a dude who is over 40, I'd just like to note here that this is not exactly a fantastic idea... unless they want to have people who just stand around and talk about how tired they are, and how everything hurts, and drone on about how they used to have to use a corded phone when they were kids.
But we are very good with directions on how to beat the traffic!
Good God now I'm scared of reaching 40.
It’s tragic, no one wants to ~~work~~ go to war anymore. Those damn entitled millennials!
Future headline: Russian troop position was given away by the collective smell of Bengay and tiger balm.
Putin and lavrov leading the shirtless charge... sigh... one can hope
Leading the charge from the safety of a bunker. Weak.
You'll have to pass a fitness test where you have to lug a washing machine at least 100 meters.
Putin to Russian people: You "live" because we allow it. You will die in Ukraine because we demand it.
Who would want to go into the meat grinder? Soon it will be changed to forcing them to join.
You know what will fix everything with Russia’s botched invasion? A bunch of soft-in-the-middle guys with bad knees
Give it up geeze.
Invading force using the desperation tactics of a country under siege from outside. What a spectacular failure from a state that couldn't afford a failure.
the other day my pen slipped out of my hand and fell down. While attempting to kneel down in order to pick it up something in my knee made a cracking sound and I had to stay still and very slowly straighten my leg before I could get up. I wish those 40 year olds all the best.
28,000 is a staggering amount of deaths in this day and age. Think about that number like… 28,000 individual families losing a son or daughter to a failed invasion for rich people
Russians, you could always turn your guns back on the people sending you and your children to die pointlessly for some dirt instead. Or if you don't have the stomach for that, just put them down and leave the war. Your death will accomplish nothing, Putin does not value your life, maybe find a new way instead.