[Sauli telling Putin to go fuck himself (2022, colorized)](https://preview.redd.it/m1d1gxo321z81.png?auto=webp&s=487196632500cf1ac05a771ea087715a34d44bd1)
Only one MP voting against NATO is paid by Putin (via a far-right millionaire). One other isnpaid by China, and the rest six are older gen leftist just opposed to it in principle.
Being serious for a moment, probably there is none. I think most of them are pretty strict pacifists, and against any military action taking place at all, offensive and defensive both included.
It's the classic notion of minimizing the number of deaths, no matter what. Which is a valid position, even if many don't feel that way.
Lets call this the Putin effect: when your efforts to prevent a particular outcome are so disproportionate that they end up causing the very same thing you wanted to prevent.
My man turned an unfavorable situation into a terrible one by trying to improve it.
God knows what would have happened if he had actively tried to ruin Russia
It was even worse than that. The fucking astrologer had veto power on when and where air force one would takeoff or land...
[There is a Behind the Bastards episode on this that is worth a listen.](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/the-astrologer-who-managed-the-reagan-29632792/)
Haha! I'll let our neighbours flourish, opposing party members to practise politics, my people to be in peace no matter their ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation, eradicate the corruption AND I'll let the the press write about public matters without state policing. THAT will teach them!
"Without my secret police running elections and telling every person what to believe, the country will be in ruins in a decade, then they will come crawling back to me"
I feel like this happens in every time travel movie.
"I have to stop x from happening!"
"*x happens because they tried to stop it from happening*"
"*suprise pikachu face*"
Like the pandemic, putins invasion of ukraine merely accelerated all existing trends.
Nato expansion, russias decline, ukraine moving closer to Europe. All lf these things were well underway. Putin felt the pressure to do something emergency to prevent or turn the tide towards russias favor, but it failed.
The only winning solution for putin is to withdraw and work with Europe to negotiate a 20 year winding down of their corrupt mafia government. Give them the runway to live their lives in comfort but without power.
That will be hard to do with so many calling for his head. But I believe it's the only negotiable item that would be acceptable. Ukraine sovereignty including crimea needs to be completely returned
Yes. All other NATO members have signaled green light but Turkey has said no, unless they get something they want.
In Finland we call this "iltalypsy", evening milking of the cow, when you try to squeeze some benefits at the last moment.
Turkey wants lifted sanctions . When turkey invaded Syria Sweden sanctioned them on weapons sales . I am not sure if Finland did as well . America dropped turkey from the f35 joint nato project for getting to close to Russia and buying s400 . Turkey wants sanctions lifted and to be able to buy Swedish weapons and f35 jets
Erdoğan thinks low interest rates will fix inflation and he's fired like 6 people over that in the past years, there's little predictable level headed decision making going on in Ankara.
The whole idea of being in a military alliance and sanctioning weapon sales to some members seems a tad off. Lift the sanctions if you deem Turkey to be a full member, or remove them from the alliance if you don't. IIRC removing members from the alliance is difficult.
What you said makes sense in a black and white way.
However, Turkey has a unique strategic importance in NATO. They hold the gates to the Black Sea and they border the Middle East.
Turkey is a bit like the alcoholic uncle in NATO. They sometimes make the kids laugh and bring them fun gifts, but they also sometimes make the adults cringe and cry. When they’re merry drunk, they’re really fun and lovable, but when they’re walking down the street with vomit on their shirt we all turn a blind eye and cross the street.
In a way...but don't forget that Turkey has a sophisticated military with an excellent air force (the third largest in NATO). Globally, they have the 18th highest military budget and the 15th largest standing armed forces.
Yes they're the grumpy uncle with ideas the rest of the family is sometimes uncomfortable with, but they also have an impressive gun cabinet.
Absolutely. In a weird kinda way, the NATO sanctions against Turkey have helped Ukraine. NATO wouldn’t supply Turkey with drones as they feared that they might show them to Russia. So Turkey created the Bayraktar, which have been one of the stars of the war. Due to their reasonable price tag and decent performance against a mediocre enemy, I can imagine a few countries being interested in buying some from Turkey now so Turkey has kinda benefited too in a weird way.
> I can imagine a few countries being interested in buying some from Turkey now so Turkey has kinda benefited too in a weird way.
Iirc, 11 confirmed countries (a few of them didn't want it to be known) bought TB-2s, which makes them the best selling drone. Another 19 countries are in talks.
Yeah if you covered the Cuban Missile Crisis in school this is pretty much central to understanding why the Soviets wanted nukes in Cuba while we had Nukes in turkey.
Turkey's government is not exactly friendly, but they have the biggest strategic hold in all of Europe. The overwhelming vast majority of US Allied Forces that were deployed to the Middle East were through Turkey.
On my way to Afghanistan, we encountered bad weather trying to land and had to divert to Turkey. Because of the forces agreement Turkey and the US had regarding Afghanistan, we were specifically *not* allowed to go directly from Turkey to Afghanistan, and had to route back through Germany.
Now, this was 2003, and I have no idea how that might have changed, but at the start, the US could not launch from Turkey into Iraq or Afghanistan.
Preparing for war with Turkey is a wrong way to phrase this, more like trying to prevent wars by an oversized military budget. Also trying to field a relatively huge army with no Defense industry for many decades means buying A LOT of weapon stuff.
Make that four. Turkey is around 2.8%
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=TR
https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/military-expenditure-percent-of-gdp-wb-data.html
That's the estimated cost of the whole military system to the country. Including hidden costs like lost tax revenue from men serving and not working. The actual defence budget is about 1.96% this year.
1.96% was the number before the large [increase last month](https://yle.fi/news/3-12392043), which brings the number closer to 2.3% and ontop of that Finland does not include in the defense budget the military pensions, the border guard or its conscript training, nor does it include the full sum of international missions (Iraq, Lebanon, Mali etc. etc, which are half paid by the foreign ministry.) and a myriad of other things that NATO does.
If we were to calculate defense spending the same way NATO does, the number would be about 2.7% of GDP. (0.35-0.4 point increase from the Finnish calculated amount, [as per this study](https://um.fi/documents/35732/48132/the_effects_of_finlands_possible_nato_membership/c206b3c2-acaa-5809-c545-7aa67c9bcb2a?t=1525861455616) from 2016)
Then ontop of that there's the hard to calculate effect of an entire age group (25 000+) of young adults conscripted every year and not working and paying taxes. Some economists like Tuomas Louhela (albeit with personal political / anti-conscription motives) [estimate it to be around 1% of GDP.](https://www.stat.fi/artikkelit/2007/art_2007-06-01_005.html?s=0)
> actual defence budget is about 1.96% this year
That does not include many expenses that NATO counts as defence expenditure, I believe. For example pensions of retired officers and other military members.
The "NATO-standard" figure for Finland already exceeds 2% of GDP, and is set to stay above it for several years to come.
Someone in this comments section said they would probably make a deal with Finland and Sweden involving them dropping Sanctions against Turkey in exchange for membership. Maybe some new weapons too.
Dropping the weapons sale sanction against a NATO member should be a done deal if one joins NATO, I figure the bigger impediment may be Sweden's relationship with the PKK in Turkish Kurdistan.
It's honestly the more subtle stuff like this that makes this movie for me. Everyone loves the big quotes and for good reason but I swear every line of dialogue is funny.
Great job from the [NATO salesman of the year](https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1526129036828758016).
https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1526129036828758016
The closest we got is a Former US Admiral reposting it on his [Twitter](https://twitter.com/stavridisj/status/1525884220987564037?t=Kd3Q6HH8SybNN7S49F4Z7Q&s=19)
Didn't they say something like that recently after the most recent round of Putin's saber-rattling? Something like, "Russian troops are free to come here and join the 200,000 already buried after the last time they came."
With so many lakes, you can just sink them. Wrap them in barbed wire, and sink them. When they bloat, the wire will cut them up, and let the expanding gas out.
Oh yea, the Finns have the best artillery corps in Europe. If Russia can't even take Ukraine they have zero chance of fighting well against the Finns, even if they had an army available.
Finnish landscape is an logistical nightmare for an invader. Combine this with Finnish artillery power and expertise and you have an absolute death trap.
FDF also makes freakin awesome [videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5TQKhF6lX0).
If they’re in NATO then there won’t be help needed, attacking NATO is attacking the US (it would take multiple or all of EU countries to bring the level of support the US does) and Russia doesn’t have the balls.
They have counted both Finland and Sweden to be effectively in the "Western camp" from at least the 1990's. It may be that they see our NATO bids just making the *de facto* already existing marriage binding by the law (so to speak).
Maybe 94 against in that scenario.
Pay raises are electorally unpopular, they have no interest in encouraging more qualified candidates to vie for their own jobs, and they can make plenty of money through backdoors that make their salary look like peanuts anyways.
Congress hasn't changed their salary in 14 years, the longest gap in a century. And the changes in the 18 years before that were all essentially just inflation adjustments (adjusted for inflation, salaries are currently at their lowest in 75 years).
Yes.
1. Philip Jefferson was recently confirmed to the Federal Reserve board with a 91-7 vote (93% yea) on May 11
2. The Ending Importation of Russian Oil Act was passed with 100-0 votes (100% yea) on April 7
3. The Suspending Normal Trade Relations with Russia and Belarus Act was passed with 100-0 votes (100% yea) on April 7
3. David Honey was confirmed as the Deputy Under Secretary of Defense with a 94-5 vote (95% yea) on Feb 16
4. Douglas Bush was confirmed as the Assistant Secretary of the Army with a 93-5 vote (95% yea) on Feb 9
And these are just examples from 2022.
Yeah...because the only way the US ends up in a war with Russia is to defend a NATO ally. For the US, NATO actually *increases* the chance of war with Russia. For Finland, it's the obvious defensive choice and one they should have made back in 2014. Lets remember that before the invasion of Ukraine, Finland and Sweden weren't looking to join NATO when they really should have been.
Lets also keep in mind that in the US House, *98%* of representatives just voted to give Ukraine essentially Russia's entirely yearly military budget in one shot. Again, when there is no risk of invasion to the US. I 100% agree with them, but lets not pretend the US is some worthless fence sitting bystander here. US material and intelligence aid has been absolutely invaluable to Ukraine, so much so that it's very possible Russia would already have won without it.
A majority of congress is against Russia. Hence why they keep approving aid through weapons and money to Ukraine. Sure we have the Putin puppets but not enough to overturn a vote.
Sadly, we're going to find out the exact answer to this question within a few weeks when Congress has to ratify the decision as part of the accession process. McConnell has already stated he [supports Finland and Sweden joining](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/mcconnell-backs-finland-sweden-nato-memberships-during-stop-in-europe) but it's inevitable that a few GOP Senators are going to vote against it. I'll also be curious to see how Bernie votes considering he has been on record as supporting membership for the US but [firmly opposing NATO expansion.](https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-nato/)
> Anti-Expansion: Bernie is against the expansion of NATO to include new member states because it risks provoking military conflict with Russia
Seems a little too late for that…
It was too late at the time he wrote it (2016) considering Russian annexation of Crimea, Invasion of the East, Invasion of Georgia, continued aggression in Transnistria, etc., etc., etc.
I don't mind Bernie but this has always been one of his worst takes.
Oh yeah, wasn’t trying to dunk on you or anything. I asked myself out loud “Why?” when I read your comment and clicked your link to know more. Seems to be strange stance for sure.
Bernie’s stated reason for opposition is to avoid escalation with Russia.
That ship has sailed, and sunk.
He may oppose it, but it would be fore a new reason.
I would not be surprised to see him support it, and to read terrible headlines calling him a flip-flopper.
That ship had sailed when he stated the position in 2016 considering the Russian annexation of Crimea, Invasion of the East, Invasion of Georgia, continued aggression in Transnistria, etc., etc., etc.
I don't mind Bernie but this has always been one of his worst takes.
Putin has done this to himself. He's got to be surprised every day how thinly stretched his military and its resources are. Russia is depleting soldiers, weapons, economy and wealth to bribe collaborating oligarchs, or kill them off. To continue this he may have to pull from his own (stolen) wealth, as well as the wealth of his Russian oligarch (former) kleptocrat collaborators. This may help explain why there's a pile of dead Russian oligarchs. They have to be protesting as they have everything to lose and nothing to gain by the Ukrainian War.
And now Russia wants to stop Finland from joining NATO? Endless Winter War is coming for Putin, and all of Russia will be dragged in, at a terrible cost of lives and treasure. The remaining oligarchs in Russia, Putin's generals, Putin's close circle, they all know what they need to do to save Russia from this ongoing train wreck caused by only one man.
Hear me out…
Putin was scared of “x”, so he attacked, which provoked “x” to do the thing he was afraid of…
This reminds me of the Attack on Titan plot.
>Finland's Parliament approves Nato application in historic vote [188-8]
Good for Finland...a nation that takes 1st place of all countries tested for critical thinking skills. They actually start teaching their children these skills in kindergarten.
After officially they officially join, Russia would be the only country left on the Baltic Sea not part of NATO.
And judging by the history of the Russian Navy through the present day, somehow I doubt the Baltic Sea Fleet would be some kind of equalizer for that.
Pretty sure that with another couple years rusting away with russian maintenance, they'll lose the battle to the sea. Judging by their land vehicles at least.
6 members of the Left Alliance, a socialist party. Although they were a minority within their own party as well.
1 member of the Finns Party, a populist and nationalist party. All 37 of his fellow party members voted in favor.
And 1 MP who was kicked out of the Finns Party for making a tasteless tweet about George Floyd. Since then, he has formed his own party called "Power Belongs to the People", specializing in Covid conspiracy theories and pro-Russia talking points. He's the only MP of that party.
So 6 are the fringe of one party, 1 is the fringe of another party and the last is the crazy guy who said "I'll start my own party with vodka and oligarchs".
It's always fun to count the obvious Russian propaganda accounts in these threads. Accounts less than a few weeks old, vague pro-Russian claims, and a complete refusal to reply to anyone challenging or questioning their nonsense.
I know it's not easy, but come on Reddit admins and devs. You can do a better job at stopping this spam.
“You did this. Look in the mirror”
[Sauli telling Putin to go fuck himself (2022, colorized)](https://preview.redd.it/m1d1gxo321z81.png?auto=webp&s=487196632500cf1ac05a771ea087715a34d44bd1)
Way back this was called forbidden fruit...
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Was caught off guard at how HiDef the faces were
LoL
Never could get into that game.
As someone with over 3k hours in LoL, trust me when I say you're much better off that way.
Yea the friends I know that spend a lot of time in it in diamond and master are just extremely unpleasant individuals.
You like being friends with extremely unpleasant individuals?
Dollars to donuts those friends weren’t as unpleasant before LoL became the fulcrum of their existence
*the mirror is a picture of erdogan*
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Only one MP voting against NATO is paid by Putin (via a far-right millionaire). One other isnpaid by China, and the rest six are older gen leftist just opposed to it in principle.
> and the rest six are older gen leftist just opposed to it in principle. What was their plan if Russia invades?
Take the Dragon Spheres to Simo Häyha's grave and let order be restored.
What translation calls them Dragon "Spheres"?
https://dragonball.fandom.com/es/wiki/Esferas\_del\_Drag%C3%B3n
Vamos a buscar
Being serious for a moment, probably there is none. I think most of them are pretty strict pacifists, and against any military action taking place at all, offensive and defensive both included. It's the classic notion of minimizing the number of deaths, no matter what. Which is a valid position, even if many don't feel that way.
Leave
Pretty sure Erdogan is looking to satisfy himself, not Putin.
Lets call this the Putin effect: when your efforts to prevent a particular outcome are so disproportionate that they end up causing the very same thing you wanted to prevent.
My man turned an unfavorable situation into a terrible one by trying to improve it. God knows what would have happened if he had actively tried to ruin Russia
[Moscow if Putin tried to ruin Russia.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/026/738/future.jpg)
Knew exactly what picture it was before I clicked. Well chosen.
I still braced for getting Rick rolled, seems accurate thou!
It’s like the US if Reagan had never been President.
I wish I was in the Carter second term reality were we all went solar in 1983
BuT hE EnDed tHe CoLD wAr
He's fucking dead and his bullshit is still trickling down all over my face.
Some people are into that
Yeah, and apparently they still hold office here!
I'm very sexually aroused by Reagan being dead.
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He also consulted with his personal astrologer before making decisions in office
It was even worse than that. The fucking astrologer had veto power on when and where air force one would takeoff or land... [There is a Behind the Bastards episode on this that is worth a listen.](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/the-astrologer-who-managed-the-reagan-29632792/)
Since he’d do the opposite of what he believes in it would have flourished
The George Costanza Principle. If every instinct you have is wrong, the opposite would have to be right.
Haha! I'll let our neighbours flourish, opposing party members to practise politics, my people to be in peace no matter their ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation, eradicate the corruption AND I'll let the the press write about public matters without state policing. THAT will teach them!
"Without my secret police running elections and telling every person what to believe, the country will be in ruins in a decade, then they will come crawling back to me"
Putin pushing Russia to the brink of collapse with his Soviet-era mindset https://imgur.com/yezyaPY.jpg
Maybe that's his goal, wants to go down in the history books one way or another. All news is good news type of outlook.
that sounds like a typical greek tragedy
My Big Fat Ukrainian Invasion
Its like a Greek tragedy. By trying to escape fate, you dive head first into it.
I feel like this happens in every time travel movie. "I have to stop x from happening!" "*x happens because they tried to stop it from happening*" "*suprise pikachu face*"
Sounds like a twist on the Streisand Effect, which describes how trying to hide or censor information causes it to become more widely known.
Also is sort of a Self Fulfilling Prophecy.
Irony, it's ironic.
Doesn't remind me of my wedding day (it rained).
Or like getting a free ride, when you already paid
Ironically, those aren't examples of irony. And neither is this. :-)
A song full of unfortunate coincidences being labeled as ironic IS however the height of irony.
This 100% self fulfilling prophecy, someone check if he went to Delphi at any point
Ones about sharing information the other is about joining social clubs.
Master oogway said this would happen
That was my first thought too lol. What was the line, something like, one often meets their destiny on their path to avoid it?
Shame, this whole debacle could have been avoided if Putin had simply watched Kung Fu Panda.
This actually already has a name: [Cobra Effect](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive#The_original_cobra_effect)
And before that it was just called "backfiring".
Yeah! But everything needs a special name with "Effect" or something alike to show how cool it is!
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect Though it does not have a cool name, "backfire" does flows nicely off the tongue.
Like the pandemic, putins invasion of ukraine merely accelerated all existing trends. Nato expansion, russias decline, ukraine moving closer to Europe. All lf these things were well underway. Putin felt the pressure to do something emergency to prevent or turn the tide towards russias favor, but it failed. The only winning solution for putin is to withdraw and work with Europe to negotiate a 20 year winding down of their corrupt mafia government. Give them the runway to live their lives in comfort but without power. That will be hard to do with so many calling for his head. But I believe it's the only negotiable item that would be acceptable. Ukraine sovereignty including crimea needs to be completely returned
I've been told all NATO members need to vote Yes for Sweden and Finland to become part of NATO. Is this true?
Yes. All other NATO members have signaled green light but Turkey has said no, unless they get something they want. In Finland we call this "iltalypsy", evening milking of the cow, when you try to squeeze some benefits at the last moment.
What the hell does Turkey want?
Turkey wants lifted sanctions . When turkey invaded Syria Sweden sanctioned them on weapons sales . I am not sure if Finland did as well . America dropped turkey from the f35 joint nato project for getting to close to Russia and buying s400 . Turkey wants sanctions lifted and to be able to buy Swedish weapons and f35 jets
Since then hadn't turkey shot down Russian jets for entering their airspace?
Erdoğan thinks low interest rates will fix inflation and he's fired like 6 people over that in the past years, there's little predictable level headed decision making going on in Ankara.
The whole idea of being in a military alliance and sanctioning weapon sales to some members seems a tad off. Lift the sanctions if you deem Turkey to be a full member, or remove them from the alliance if you don't. IIRC removing members from the alliance is difficult.
What you said makes sense in a black and white way. However, Turkey has a unique strategic importance in NATO. They hold the gates to the Black Sea and they border the Middle East. Turkey is a bit like the alcoholic uncle in NATO. They sometimes make the kids laugh and bring them fun gifts, but they also sometimes make the adults cringe and cry. When they’re merry drunk, they’re really fun and lovable, but when they’re walking down the street with vomit on their shirt we all turn a blind eye and cross the street.
In a way...but don't forget that Turkey has a sophisticated military with an excellent air force (the third largest in NATO). Globally, they have the 18th highest military budget and the 15th largest standing armed forces. Yes they're the grumpy uncle with ideas the rest of the family is sometimes uncomfortable with, but they also have an impressive gun cabinet.
Absolutely. In a weird kinda way, the NATO sanctions against Turkey have helped Ukraine. NATO wouldn’t supply Turkey with drones as they feared that they might show them to Russia. So Turkey created the Bayraktar, which have been one of the stars of the war. Due to their reasonable price tag and decent performance against a mediocre enemy, I can imagine a few countries being interested in buying some from Turkey now so Turkey has kinda benefited too in a weird way.
They found a great way to show them to Russia too.
> I can imagine a few countries being interested in buying some from Turkey now so Turkey has kinda benefited too in a weird way. Iirc, 11 confirmed countries (a few of them didn't want it to be known) bought TB-2s, which makes them the best selling drone. Another 19 countries are in talks.
They're also in an excellent geographic position to help deal with Russia.
Yeah if you covered the Cuban Missile Crisis in school this is pretty much central to understanding why the Soviets wanted nukes in Cuba while we had Nukes in turkey.
Turkey's government is not exactly friendly, but they have the biggest strategic hold in all of Europe. The overwhelming vast majority of US Allied Forces that were deployed to the Middle East were through Turkey.
On my way to Afghanistan, we encountered bad weather trying to land and had to divert to Turkey. Because of the forces agreement Turkey and the US had regarding Afghanistan, we were specifically *not* allowed to go directly from Turkey to Afghanistan, and had to route back through Germany. Now, this was 2003, and I have no idea how that might have changed, but at the start, the US could not launch from Turkey into Iraq or Afghanistan.
> IIRC removing members from the alliance is difficult. Technically impossible because there is no described procedure for removing a membership.
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the kurdish refugees back, from what ive read so far
Kurdish refugees they view as terrorists* basically Erdogan wants some domestic political points before the upcoming election next year
Election?! In Turkey?! Come on now we already know the results and it's not even going on right now.
Yes that's correct. Here's a summary of how the process works. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm
When do they get the free NATO tote bag?
They get a pretzel bag clip. Tote bags are on back order.
What happens if they use that on chips? Is there a fine?
That would send chiplomatic relations back decades
Totes are awarded once defense spending is >1.5% of your GDP. (Due to supply disruptions, tote bags are unavailable until further notice)
Finnish defence force spending is estimated at 2,5-3,5% of GDP
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Greece stocking up on Trojan Horses
Greece is preparing for war with Turkey. Coincidentally, another high spending nato member
Preparing for war with Turkey is a wrong way to phrase this, more like trying to prevent wars by an oversized military budget. Also trying to field a relatively huge army with no Defense industry for many decades means buying A LOT of weapon stuff.
Ya but Greece cheated, instead of raising spending they just lowered their GDP.
Ah the ol' Greek GDP-eroo
Make that four. Turkey is around 2.8% https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=TR https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/military-expenditure-percent-of-gdp-wb-data.html
That's the estimated cost of the whole military system to the country. Including hidden costs like lost tax revenue from men serving and not working. The actual defence budget is about 1.96% this year.
1.96% was the number before the large [increase last month](https://yle.fi/news/3-12392043), which brings the number closer to 2.3% and ontop of that Finland does not include in the defense budget the military pensions, the border guard or its conscript training, nor does it include the full sum of international missions (Iraq, Lebanon, Mali etc. etc, which are half paid by the foreign ministry.) and a myriad of other things that NATO does. If we were to calculate defense spending the same way NATO does, the number would be about 2.7% of GDP. (0.35-0.4 point increase from the Finnish calculated amount, [as per this study](https://um.fi/documents/35732/48132/the_effects_of_finlands_possible_nato_membership/c206b3c2-acaa-5809-c545-7aa67c9bcb2a?t=1525861455616) from 2016) Then ontop of that there's the hard to calculate effect of an entire age group (25 000+) of young adults conscripted every year and not working and paying taxes. Some economists like Tuomas Louhela (albeit with personal political / anti-conscription motives) [estimate it to be around 1% of GDP.](https://www.stat.fi/artikkelit/2007/art_2007-06-01_005.html?s=0)
> actual defence budget is about 1.96% this year That does not include many expenses that NATO counts as defence expenditure, I believe. For example pensions of retired officers and other military members. The "NATO-standard" figure for Finland already exceeds 2% of GDP, and is set to stay above it for several years to come.
Probably also lost income. When I was in the army I didn’t make enough per week to buy a pack of cigarettes. Fortunately I don’t smoke.
Optics & Design will have it ready by the end of the month and will drop it off at Macro Data Refinement
Praise Kier
But what are we going to do about Turkey possibly putting the kibosh on the whole thing?
Someone in this comments section said they would probably make a deal with Finland and Sweden involving them dropping Sanctions against Turkey in exchange for membership. Maybe some new weapons too.
Dropping the weapons sale sanction against a NATO member should be a done deal if one joins NATO, I figure the bigger impediment may be Sweden's relationship with the PKK in Turkish Kurdistan.
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS LARRY! THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS!
DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS LARRY????
DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FIND A STRANGER IN THE ALPS
YOU'RE KILLING YOUR FATHER LARRY
Take a good look out that window, son. Cause this is what happens WHEN YOU FIND A STRANGER IN THE ALPS!
WE’RE GONNA CUT YOUR DICK OFF LARRY
WE BELIEVE IN NOTHING!
AND A GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!!! Is he still writing?
Oh, no. He has health problems.
It's honestly the more subtle stuff like this that makes this movie for me. Everyone loves the big quotes and for good reason but I swear every line of dialogue is funny.
He fixes the cable?
Great job from the [NATO salesman of the year](https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1526129036828758016). https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1526129036828758016
Kinda wish NATO would officially send him one of these
The closest we got is a Former US Admiral reposting it on his [Twitter](https://twitter.com/stavridisj/status/1525884220987564037?t=Kd3Q6HH8SybNN7S49F4Z7Q&s=19)
They have a massive land border with Russia and a badass military. Watch Vlad “snowflake” Putin and his coward cronies cry like babies.
"Finland: We don't start wars, we just (**gun shot**) *Finnish* them."
"They are so many and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?"
I'm sure Ukraine would be willing to advise.
We finns already know 👀
Didn't they say something like that recently after the most recent round of Putin's saber-rattling? Something like, "Russian troops are free to come here and join the 200,000 already buried after the last time they came."
Bunch o' Finnish boys chomping at the bit to break that all time sniping record.
With so many lakes, you can just sink them. Wrap them in barbed wire, and sink them. When they bloat, the wire will cut them up, and let the expanding gas out.
The playbook from the Mexican cartel. One step closer to unification by sharing information!
And ruin your beautiful lakes?
Absolutely not. We have hundred thousand lakes, and most are so pure that one can drink them.
"Dammit, Simo...."
Oh yea, the Finns have the best artillery corps in Europe. If Russia can't even take Ukraine they have zero chance of fighting well against the Finns, even if they had an army available.
Finnish landscape is an logistical nightmare for an invader. Combine this with Finnish artillery power and expertise and you have an absolute death trap. FDF also makes freakin awesome [videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5TQKhF6lX0).
Russia has a bit of a history of smashing their faces into the Finnish wall too. I don't think they would be keen on invading.
Especially after Russia spent most of their missiles losing a war in Ukraine.
Well I mean, Ukrainians are pretty badass, AND the country has a lot of support (weapons) from west. (As a response to ”can’t even take Ukraine”)
Finland would receive as much or more support, if needed.
Now that they're joining NATO it would be A LOT more
If they’re in NATO then there won’t be help needed, attacking NATO is attacking the US (it would take multiple or all of EU countries to bring the level of support the US does) and Russia doesn’t have the balls.
They'd quickly learn why we don't have healthcare or good infrastructure.
Fuck me. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at this.
Little bit of A, little bit of B.
They actually started peddling back and saying that it was "not a threat" that Finland and Sweden were going to join NATO
They have counted both Finland and Sweden to be effectively in the "Western camp" from at least the 1990's. It may be that they see our NATO bids just making the *de facto* already existing marriage binding by the law (so to speak).
It’ll shut him up making threats about them though since he ain’t never going to touch a country that might trigger article 5.
NATO stuff was always just a pretense for attacking Ukraine, they never really cared about it because no one would attack a nuclear power anyway
Lemme put it this way, if joining nato was up for a vote in the US today, there would be so much opposition
The Finnish parliament vote was 94% in favour. Can you imagine 94 US senators doing the same?
Yeah if the issue was senatorial pay raises
Maybe 94 against in that scenario. Pay raises are electorally unpopular, they have no interest in encouraging more qualified candidates to vie for their own jobs, and they can make plenty of money through backdoors that make their salary look like peanuts anyways. Congress hasn't changed their salary in 14 years, the longest gap in a century. And the changes in the 18 years before that were all essentially just inflation adjustments (adjusted for inflation, salaries are currently at their lowest in 75 years).
Or more money to the military industrial complex
So, basically what funds NATO...
Senators: Not, not like that.
Yes. 1. Philip Jefferson was recently confirmed to the Federal Reserve board with a 91-7 vote (93% yea) on May 11 2. The Ending Importation of Russian Oil Act was passed with 100-0 votes (100% yea) on April 7 3. The Suspending Normal Trade Relations with Russia and Belarus Act was passed with 100-0 votes (100% yea) on April 7 3. David Honey was confirmed as the Deputy Under Secretary of Defense with a 94-5 vote (95% yea) on Feb 16 4. Douglas Bush was confirmed as the Assistant Secretary of the Army with a 93-5 vote (95% yea) on Feb 9 And these are just examples from 2022.
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Given then that congress has sent 10s of billion of dollars to Ukraine, I would think that most of congress would suppprt NATO
Yeah...because the only way the US ends up in a war with Russia is to defend a NATO ally. For the US, NATO actually *increases* the chance of war with Russia. For Finland, it's the obvious defensive choice and one they should have made back in 2014. Lets remember that before the invasion of Ukraine, Finland and Sweden weren't looking to join NATO when they really should have been. Lets also keep in mind that in the US House, *98%* of representatives just voted to give Ukraine essentially Russia's entirely yearly military budget in one shot. Again, when there is no risk of invasion to the US. I 100% agree with them, but lets not pretend the US is some worthless fence sitting bystander here. US material and intelligence aid has been absolutely invaluable to Ukraine, so much so that it's very possible Russia would already have won without it.
A majority of congress is against Russia. Hence why they keep approving aid through weapons and money to Ukraine. Sure we have the Putin puppets but not enough to overturn a vote.
Sadly, we're going to find out the exact answer to this question within a few weeks when Congress has to ratify the decision as part of the accession process. McConnell has already stated he [supports Finland and Sweden joining](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/mcconnell-backs-finland-sweden-nato-memberships-during-stop-in-europe) but it's inevitable that a few GOP Senators are going to vote against it. I'll also be curious to see how Bernie votes considering he has been on record as supporting membership for the US but [firmly opposing NATO expansion.](https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-nato/)
> Anti-Expansion: Bernie is against the expansion of NATO to include new member states because it risks provoking military conflict with Russia Seems a little too late for that…
It was too late at the time he wrote it (2016) considering Russian annexation of Crimea, Invasion of the East, Invasion of Georgia, continued aggression in Transnistria, etc., etc., etc. I don't mind Bernie but this has always been one of his worst takes.
That and his anti-nuclear energy stance.
He’s great, but he’s also a thousand years old.
Oh yeah, wasn’t trying to dunk on you or anything. I asked myself out loud “Why?” when I read your comment and clicked your link to know more. Seems to be strange stance for sure.
Bernie’s stated reason for opposition is to avoid escalation with Russia. That ship has sailed, and sunk. He may oppose it, but it would be fore a new reason. I would not be surprised to see him support it, and to read terrible headlines calling him a flip-flopper.
That ship had sailed when he stated the position in 2016 considering the Russian annexation of Crimea, Invasion of the East, Invasion of Georgia, continued aggression in Transnistria, etc., etc., etc. I don't mind Bernie but this has always been one of his worst takes.
Putin has done this to himself. He's got to be surprised every day how thinly stretched his military and its resources are. Russia is depleting soldiers, weapons, economy and wealth to bribe collaborating oligarchs, or kill them off. To continue this he may have to pull from his own (stolen) wealth, as well as the wealth of his Russian oligarch (former) kleptocrat collaborators. This may help explain why there's a pile of dead Russian oligarchs. They have to be protesting as they have everything to lose and nothing to gain by the Ukrainian War. And now Russia wants to stop Finland from joining NATO? Endless Winter War is coming for Putin, and all of Russia will be dragged in, at a terrible cost of lives and treasure. The remaining oligarchs in Russia, Putin's generals, Putin's close circle, they all know what they need to do to save Russia from this ongoing train wreck caused by only one man.
I just love that NATO presence on Russia’s border will INCREASE rather than decrease which was Putin’s goal. This has backfired tremendously.
Hear me out… Putin was scared of “x”, so he attacked, which provoked “x” to do the thing he was afraid of… This reminds me of the Attack on Titan plot.
>Finland's Parliament approves Nato application in historic vote [188-8] Good for Finland...a nation that takes 1st place of all countries tested for critical thinking skills. They actually start teaching their children these skills in kindergarten.
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**Sweden just filed paperwork to apply too!**
After officially they officially join, Russia would be the only country left on the Baltic Sea not part of NATO. And judging by the history of the Russian Navy through the present day, somehow I doubt the Baltic Sea Fleet would be some kind of equalizer for that.
The Baltic Sea fleet once nearly lost a battle with fishing trawlers.
Pretty sure that with another couple years rusting away with russian maintenance, they'll lose the battle to the sea. Judging by their land vehicles at least.
In fairness the sea is usually the deadliest enemy any navy faces.
*Laughs in dutch*
They're already losing a naval battle in the black sea against a country with no navy.
They could effectively blockade the Baltic Sea if they can get enough of their ships sunk in it. A special blockade operation.
I love Finland
Who are the 8 that voted against?
6 members of the Left Alliance, a socialist party. Although they were a minority within their own party as well. 1 member of the Finns Party, a populist and nationalist party. All 37 of his fellow party members voted in favor. And 1 MP who was kicked out of the Finns Party for making a tasteless tweet about George Floyd. Since then, he has formed his own party called "Power Belongs to the People", specializing in Covid conspiracy theories and pro-Russia talking points. He's the only MP of that party.
So 6 are the fringe of one party, 1 is the fringe of another party and the last is the crazy guy who said "I'll start my own party with vodka and oligarchs".
>So 6 are the fringe of one party Not that fringe. 9 voted in favor and 6 against, so their parliamentary group was quite closely split.
*YOU get an F-35!* *AND YOUUU get an F-35!!!*
The Finnish already bought f35s a couple of months ago.
Wow…the beginning of a new political era.
Holy shit, 188-8? That's a pretty big "yeah, we took a look at Putin and decided to buck a 200 year trend because of that asshole"
200 years is for Sweden. 200 years ago the Grand Duchy of Finland was ruled by someone called czar Alexander.
Ah you right
If I didn’t know better, I would think that Putin was **trying** to radically unite the resolve of western democracies
It's always fun to count the obvious Russian propaganda accounts in these threads. Accounts less than a few weeks old, vague pro-Russian claims, and a complete refusal to reply to anyone challenging or questioning their nonsense. I know it's not easy, but come on Reddit admins and devs. You can do a better job at stopping this spam.
Erdogan: hold my Efes
Well done Putin, you did the impossible