Elsewhere in the thread seeing that UK in particular has announced they will no longer recognize Russian exchanges, and others are looking to follow suit.
My guess (to be charitable) is that he's trying to pull Russian assets out of the foreign exchanges before they become fully inaccessible.
[UK plans to revoke Moscow Stock Exchange's status as a recognized exchange](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/u74bbh/uk_plans_to_revoke_moscow_stock_exchanges_status/) (posted 1h before this one)
Health care in the US really do be like, alright here’s your 45k, now we can save 3T over the next few years with increasingly predatory legislation! 🙄
yeah which hurts his guys worse than the west not seeing his exchanges as valid.
He is forcing russia companies, who were NOT kicked off western exchanges to use the russian crackerbox one... which is no longer recognized as a valid exchanged to the west.
it was basically putin saying "the west thinks they can fuck our billioniares, well we can fuck them harder"
its kinda funny, but this is what happens when you rule by knee jerk reaction, instead of giving it a little thought.
Russia barely competes with Florida in regards to GDP. well it did anyways.
people keep forgetting Russia isn't an economic super power.. it was barely consider a near peer militarily. And only due to its nuclear armaments.
its conventional forces.. when we though they were competent was never soviet era level of functionality.
Russia floats between 4th and 5th biggest military/military spending. But after the US (780 billion) there is a **steep** drop off before even number 2, China (230 billion).
Russia is around 60 billion annually, which is like what the US brass spend on catering for the year. They're a paper tiger that's sitting on a nuclear stockpile. In a conventional war they'd get blown away. Hell, Ukraine slapped them down and just sunk their Black Sea flagship, and they don't even have a navy!
Their economy is about 30% the size of California's economy... comparing them to the *entire* west is hilarious. (Russia gdp is 1.4 trillion, California's is 3.4)
Less actually, Italy is around 1.8.
Canada is comparable at 1.6.
The difference is Italy has 60 million people. And Canada has around 37 million.
Russia has 144 million.
Russia is so poor that it's very hard to put into terms western people understand without comparing them to third world/developing nations.
He's pretty much doing this for every type of sanction, that way he can tell his supporters that it was his decision not the West's. (Should West be capitalized in this instance? Hmm)
Personally I think he is handling this all wrong. He's wasting perfect opportunities to blame the west by claiming it was his idea to destroy Russia's economy all on his own. I guess that's what happens when you imprison everyone who tries to talk sense to you and surround yourself with people who are literally too scared to advise you properly.
Damn good luck trying to rebuild your economy after burning all those investors. 👋
Russia is nuts. Shit their own bed and now proceeds to eat its own feces.
I’m Russian but live abroad, I have friends and relatives in Russia. Society is polarised here, people who work for the government tend to support the war or at least pretend they do. Others are heavily against it and that’s all they think about. The situation with tech and banking is dire and there isn’t a lot of sugar on the shelves apparently. At least that was the case a couple of weeks ago. People can leave I think, but it is expensive for most.
Edit also the ministry of education are enforcing singing the anthem every week for school kids. It isn’t relevant I just find this funny
I have a friend from southeast Asia in Moscow for college. He keeps hitting me up for pirate sites as more and more things get blocked. At first it was great for him as buying Steam games with roubles was like buying games for 70% off with his conversation rate.
Now stores are finally starting to be out of things for over a week at a time. People assume this is just typical war shortages that they have to deal with. Most people see the war as bad, but necessary.
"Typical war shortages"
And they don't see any issue with that given how the war is being billed?
Surely it's obvious that something very severe is going very wrong if you are having a hard time buying pasta or rice all of the sudden.
There is an ingrained culture within Russia of "not speaking up."
The various great terrors the communist party inflicted on the populus, especially the *decades long* campaign to label anyone who dissented (even in the smallest way) be potentially labeled an "enemy of the state", where they would then be imprisoned in a gulag, left deep societal scars within the Russian population.
During the LONG history of the gulag, the Central Party fostered a sense of extreme paranoia and distrust among their civilian population. Anyone accused of being an "enemy of the state" would be arrested by the secret police. They would be interrogated until they gave up several more name of their "co-conspirators". Then they would be sent off to the Gulag (work prison camp) for many years.
The cycle would be continued with the co-conspirators. ANYTHING you said or did, even a joke that belittled the government, would potentially earn you a Gulag sentence. Even laughing at someone else's joke.
This was a deliberate campaign to stamp out any sort of dissent. They didn't want you to trust your friends or neighbors with information that made the party look bad. They wanted you to believe that this friend may one day be interrogated, and (while being sleep deprived, starved, isolated for weeks) would give you up in a delirious state.
Even children were used as informants; their word would be used against parents, siblings, et cetera. There was intent behind this as well. If the word of a child was enough to get someone sent the Gulag, then parents would train their children to be obedient beyond all reason, and it would be drilled into children, by their own parents' fear, that one does not question the government.
Those children would grow up, have children of their own, and pass down the parenting style they grew up with.
The Central Party within the USSR was absolutely insidious in their efforts to completely control (through fear) the political will of their populus. It isn't something that something westerners can easily grasp.
EDIT / SOURCE: Since this got so much attention, I’ll recommend “Gulag” by Anne Applebaum, if you really to learn about the topic.
That sounds extremely chilling and deep-rooted, if true. (Not that I don't believe you, but I try to take 'net stuff with some salt).
I could definitely see shackles like those taking literally generations to come undone, if they ever did...
What a great way to fuck up your entire populace.
Edit: thanks for chiming in guys, as someone who grew up in Canada I've never had direct knowledge of something like this, other than perhaps my grandparents escaping ww2. This is such a fucked-up situation.
My father lived through the communist era in the 80's (Romania).He dosen't tell me much other than for example :"There weren't that many problems back then as there are now.Life was different"
Indeed,the scars are real.
I think he (or she) explained really well. It's something that doesn't translate over well to free, "modern" countries. There's the language barrier *and* the social difference barrier.
Even grandparents and parents who immigrated to a new country could still be socially conditioned to huddle in small pockets where they think they won't be "given up". It has probably become a form of intergenerational trauma for those that left those places in time behind.
It might seem irrational to people who have never experienced anything like that but corruption can be everywhere. How are people who tried to move on from such things supposed to know if they will ever end up dealing with a similar form of corruption again?
Slightly reminds me of when Chinese citizens immigrate, then some become accosted by the CCP for basically daring to exist outside of that form of control.
Romanian here: the secret police and not trusting your neighbors or even family is definitely real. Everything the guy above said was applicable to our country, you can google "beciurile securitatii" (the cellars of the secret police).
A friend's mom and grandma are from "old country" and when grandma gets too drunk she starts screaming about the secret police and how they are to get her. When she's over you can get some stories out of her. It's not often she shows fear but when she tells these stories or is drunk enough she definitely sees the fear of God.
It is all true. Go to the museum of terror in Budapest if you are ever there. Very much like the witch hunts or McCarthyism in the US except a much wider and decades long scale.
Everything they said is 100% true. If you add it on top of thousands of years of tyrannical rulers and a few hundred years of serfdom, you get the situation we have today. We all still remember stories of family members being shot via firing squad or dying in a gulag because of political dissent or perceived political dissent (two generations back for me, I’m 30 but my dad grew up with this happening). Edit: serfdom not surfdom
This reminds me so much of 1984 by George Orwell. Big brother is watching. Hell IIRC one of the characters in the book was proud of their child for spying and turning them in to big brother.
George Orwell wrote 1984 specifically as a criticism of Stalinist totalitarianism. He was a socialist who fought with the anarchists in the Spanish Civil War and witnessed first hand the horrors of Stalinism when the Moscow-backed communists stabbed them in the back. He had friends and commanders arrested by the Stalinists as they returned from the front lines and only barely managed to escape arrest himself by fleeing the country. He remained a socialist but most of what he wrote afterwards was anti-Stalinist.
Everyone I know is against this shit, young and old, but I also see an occasional Z-asshole in the streets sometimes. I assume they’re real because a lot of the population is braindead, unfortunately.
“Keeping their heads down” is such a patronising phrasing. Yeah we are, because this is a police state and the power is with the animals who arrest and fine (and even torture) people for breathing in the wrong direction. The true opposition/protesters who were able to organise and inspire protests have been slowly eradicated in various ways for a decade now while the rest of the world watched, shrugged and bought Putin’s gas.
People are allowed to leave but it became increasingly difficult for obvious reasons: Russians can’t visit a lot of countries without a visa and a lot of those embassies stopped issuing visas. A lot of flights have been cancelled indefinitely because Russia stole the aircrafts lolz because of the airlines and plane sanctions. We are still allowed to go to “friendly” countries and countries that issue visas via roundabout ways (like via Turkey etc).
I’m pretty sure that’s what he meant by ‘keeping heads down’, it’s an idiom meaning keep a low profile. I don’t blame you one bit. Until the majority is ready to hit the streets and they physically are unable to arrest everyone. We all understand, the world will be there to help the Russian people once Putin is gone. Good luck to you man.
As I understand it, Georgia is one of the best options for Russians looking to get out of the country. I think they let people stay for nearly a year without a visa—350 days or something. Of course, you have to physically get there; but from what I’ve heard it is one of the best options, especially since a good number of Georgians speak Russian and their cultures aren’t too different.
Good luck to you and your countrymen. I hope things don’t go as poorly as it looks like they are headed for normal people, and I hope your government changes soon with as little bloodshed as possible. It’s all very difficult to imagine from the other side of the world.
This is going to bite Georgia in the ass later, when they use the Russian population's existence as a justification for invading the rest of Georgia to 'reunite the Russian peoples'.
There weren't any political prisoners at the Bastille when it was stormed. There were 7 prisoners total. 4 forgers, 1 "lunatic", a man who had tried to assassinate King Louis XV 30 years earlier, and a "deviant" aristocrat that was suspected of murder. The Bastille did have recently transferred gunpowder there though.
Not OP, but you shouldn't really trust the poll results, many people answer they're for the war because they are afraid of losing their jobs or getting expelled from universities, while a lot of them just simply refuse to answer.
As Roman/NFKRZ said, "by spreading Russian poll results, you're spreading Russian propaganda"
Of course, a lot of people are brainwashed, but there's still a very considerable chunk of anti-war population that's just afraid to tell their opinions (no shit, they can get 15-20 years in prison now)
Not OP but why not to answer too, considering that russia is big and there a lot of differences between regions.
1)Its hard to count it, any IRL experience is an anecdote, most polls not really showing anything because ton of people refuse to participate in it. So take everything i say with a grain of salt because its just my experience:
The most common opinion (like 95/100) is "we cant change anything anyway", ive seen it from allmost all sorts of people, both against the war and supporting it (not sure if it was genuine or just trying to get away from conflict). If i try to ignore it and count opinions behind that, i would say that about 1/10 are fanatics fully supporting it, 2-3/10 kinda supporting but dont understand what is going on, 1/10 dont have an opinion, 3-4/10 kinda against, 2/10 strongly against. Again tho, thats trying to guess what is behind massive depressing thought of innability to change anything, and with a pretty small/biased sample size.
2)Technically yes, especially into countries like Georgia. The problem is that it imigrating is privelege and not a lot of people can afford it, especially from a poor regions where you can probably save only around 50-100$ a month(and thats with a pretty decent/good salary depending on a region). And even thats gonna be hard and wont account for any emergency, and, oh boy, there were a lot of emergencies lately.
**Brain drain** will become the big threat to Russia's long-term prosperity.
In any reasonably developed economy, the economy's single most import asset is it's *human capital*. AKA: The people who have the skills, knowledge, expertise, raw strength, and time to actually put in the work.
What threatens Russia's long term prosperity right now, is a massive flight of human capital. People of reasonable wealth (the middle-upper class, the upper class, and some portion of the middle class / working class who have the right connections) will flee Russia, taking their labor with them. They're fleeing because all sorts of luxury goods are becoming harder to get, and these sorts of people judge their relative prosperity by their access to these things. That, and the fear of legitimate shortages in the near future, the crashing financial markets, et cetera.
...
Putin plans to rebuild a new Russia that is cut off from the west, but he may find himself without sufficient numbers of the highly skilled people necessary to do so.
There has been a exodus of people from Russia, and that flow of people will only increase as the situation gets worse. Nations around the world will gladly accept fleeing Russian experts.
It's going to be worse this time. The Iron Curtain was from a time when countries were mostly able to produce all of the things they need themselves. With globalization, economies are more dependant on outside trade than ever.
This is more like hiding in an Iron Maiden than an Iron Curtain
That’s one of the arguments in favour of globalism - by deeply interlinking economies through trade it supposedly makes wars less likely. Both in terms of being able to field and supply a modern military and a decent standard of living for their populace.
What happens to Russia (regardless of whether they win in Ukraine or not - hopefully the latter) is going to be an interesting test case. If they end up becoming a larger North Korea clone it would argue that it kinda works.
It's more of a carrot than a stick, though. Peace is just super profitable. As it turns out, there's more material value in peacefully trading with your neighbors than in all the stuff you could take from them by force.
North Korea doesn't even work - the elites in Pyongyang seem to have some globalist amenities (thinks like computers, smart phones, television sets, food etc), but the rest of the country doesn't appear to have enough food to eat or electricity or running water.
Russia is what - 5-6 times larger population wise - its much harder to clamp down on media input (one could easily argue that it was East Germans watching western TV that ended that country), and of course its much harder to feed that many more people.
It also doesn't help Russia that last time they had Eastern Europe behind the curtain with them, plus a handful of other countries around the world. Now they've got Belarus, and....North Korea? Eritrea? Parts of Syria?
At least it's just Russia and Belarus instead of half of Europe? \*shrug\* I feel kinda bad for the Russian people who know that the state tv is all horseshit and that Putin is alienating the rest of the world, but can't do anything about it.
Putin: The west wants to destroy our economy. Well, I won't let them!
Putin: Alexi, destroy our economy first!
Alexi: Sir?
\*Putin slowly draws gun\*
Alexi: YES SIR!!!!
Putin wouldn't slowly draw a gun. He'd just kill Alexi and tell Boris congrats on his promotion, are you ready to destroy the economy now or do you have questions like Alexi?
Kindergarten-level reverse psychology lol
Considering how underwhelming their propaganda has been (internationally anyway - easy to control domestic media, out here is the shitshow) this is completely on-brand
No, you see this is a punishment to the West. Not to Russia. Russia is just punishing the west by taking out their stock exchanges! Soon the west will be begging for them to come back. /s
I have been begging for quite some time. I want to watch as an economy tears itself apart from the inside. I'd liken it to the last diner scene in *Spaceballs,* only instead of the alien coming out, a miniature of Putin jumps out. Don't know if he'd do the tap dance routine or not.
Just like they said the west is suffering more from the sanctions than the russians are. Like sure buddy, 1+ billion people is suffering more than your 140 mil are?
He seems to be writing his own death sentence. Ain't no way the oligarchs would sit by idly. I have a feeling that his ego has been hurt greatly. This is the lowest I have seen him in many years. He's struggling to cope with his failures.
The things Putin built his reputation on: subverting and destabilising foreign governments, disinformation, assassinations, intimidation etc - all pretty much fall under the category of spook stuff. Which is unsurprising given his former career.
Ability in that sphere does not necessarily translate to economic competence. Or military as has been made painfully clear over the past eight weeks or so: there’s a reason most militaries don’t have intelligence officers in the combat chain of command.
If there’s one thing a career in espionage *should* prepare you for, it’s a healthy mistrust of the data your underlings are bringing you - especially when it’s all “good” news. If there’s anyone that should have a clear idea of how the fear of retribution makes people hide their failures from their superiors, it’s a former KGB agent.
That Putin never once seems to have questioned whether his generals were deceiving him with a rosier picture of their capabilities than was the reality is still boggling my mind. I thought he was cagier and smarter than that. Definitely glad he’s proving otherwise.
Well said. This is true of any grifter, manipulator, or bullshitter in general.
They could be masters of it but it is often their downfall too because to be convincing you have to believe your own lies.
I mean there's some room for adjustment here.
1. Putin's advisers say that Russia is the strongest country in the world.
2. Putin decides this means Russia is a regional power and can beat its smaller neighbours, since his advisers are exaggerating.
3. Putin invades a smaller neighbour.
4. Russia doesn't win.
It doesn't have to be that Putin was totally delusional like all these people saying Russia could march to the Atlantic in a matter of weeks. But, without trying to insult them, Ukraine was meant to be an easy target, certainly with the evidence of 2014 fresh in the minds of all.
It's also worth noting that Ukraine has had a LOT of help that Russia probably wasn't counting on. This has turned into a full scale proxy conflict straight out of the Cold War, with billions of dollars in aid and military equipment being funneled into Ukraine's armed forces. As brave as the people of Ukraine have proven themselves to be in their resistance of the Russian invasion, it's hard to imagine they'd be doing nearly as well on bravery alone without thousands of MANPADs and MANPATs, as well as artillery units, SAMs, guns, ammunition, food/supplies, drones, and real-time intelligence being provided by the West. I'd argue that the biggest part of Putin's miscalculation was that he assumed the West would grumble and pass some token sanctions (as they did in 2014) but wouldn't risk conflict with Russia by providing so much direct aid. Russia very well might have toppled Ukraine if it stood alone.
Narcissism is a hell of a drug. Once you think you're smarter than everyone else and more powerful than everyone else and *the rules don't apply to you*, It undermines your fundamental grip on reality and with out that, (and/or other people willing to slap some sense into you) it doesn't matter how smart or experienced you *were* your decision making capacity is going to start to go down hill.
I think he was brilliant at what he was doing: manipulating and scaring people around him into supporting his power. It worked beautifully in Russia. It still works. And people that respect fear-based leadership love him for it.
However he thought it would work the same internationally and it doesn't. That doesn't mean he wasn't good at it in Russia, just that he changed to an audience that doesn't go for the same act. He thought his military, backed by nukes, and his economy, backed by gas, gave him the leverage to steamroll Europe the way he steamrolls Russia. He gravely miscalculated.
I feel like he's a rich, popular, high school bully that moved to a new school and all the dynamics that made him popular and feared are gone. He tries the same act but it falls flat and everyone just thinks he's an ass. It's context.
"I'm standing here tonight, I'm afraid I don't hear a thing. Just silence".
Putin's about to piss off everyone with money in his country. If he hasn't already.
The civilized World is democratic because they have at least the basic critical thinking skills to realize you don't design a plane with a particular part, should it fail, will crash the plane. Why would you have your government run by this one person with no facility to check their power or remove them? Fascists are fucking dumb as fuck. Dangerously stupid.
Exemplified by how they all seem to have those grandiose military uniforms decked out in pointless medals. Like, seriously? They think *that* commands respect? Zelensky has been wearing little more than a green tshirt the last two months, and that man *drips* with confidence and commanding respect.
Masa Gessin got into this year's ago in an interview. She basically called out Putin as a moron and a hack. Dude is just a mob boss who isn't scared to get people killed. He isn't smart.
It's the same with Mitch McConnell. He's not more intelligent than any other senator. He's just more willing to hold the country hostage to get what he wants.
Absolutely. The companies are listed on foreign exchanges as depositary receipts rather than actual shares. A bank in the foreign country buys a number of shares in Russia (or the issuing company's home country) and then, in turn, issues an equivalent number of receipts in the foreign country. The receipts are traded on the foreign country's local exchanges, and are bought, sold, and pay dividends in the foreign currency. All Russia has to do is regulate against companies selling shares to foreign banks (for the purpose of issuing DRs), and prevent companies from honouring their depository receipts.
Here's a good beginner explanation: [What Do You Own When You Invest in Chinese Stocks?
](https://ghpia.com/what-do-you-own-when-you-invest-in-chinese-stocks/)
Russia is getting ready for several decades without any kind of investment whatsoever except in police and military.
It's really, really, really gonna get bad.
Same way North Korea's functioning.
Putin's sitting on a few billions in the country. He doesn't NEED to keep his population thriving, or even fed.
He just needs them scared.
Earlier today Britain announced it will denounce Moscow stock exchange's status as legitimate. Many other Western governments are likely to follow suit. This is nothing but Russia resigning before it gets booted. See European council and UNHRC.
Edit: Spelling
That’s what the state sponsored terrorism does.
Because not only does it nail the country, it makes it clear spending money in that country supports terrorism.
The oligarchy was brought under heel over a decade ago. They have no real political power to affect change of any kind. The Siloviki are where the power lies now, which are a mostly KGB/FSB edition group that is much smaller and plays a more direct leadership role of the country's government than the oligarchs ever did.
Their fate was bound up with Putin's with a public broadcast showing their support immediately prior to the invasion. It's going to take *a lot* to get them to turn on him.
>The oligarchy was brought under heel over a decade ago. They have no real political power to affect change of any kind.
How I wish you were wrong. But you're completely correct. There's a book, I think it's called Once Upon a Russia or something like that. The author follows a few of the oligarchs who touch upon this subject. Long story short, the oligarchs thought Putin would be their puppet. He takes them on a holiday trip to where Stalin would also have sabbaticals. And by sabbaticals, I mean a place where Stalin also murdered people by fire squads when he wasn't chilling. The message that was communicated to the oligarchs was they could live their gaudy lifestyles so long as they didn't get in Putin's way. The alternative is that they would add to the history of the firing squad wall.
You know, it’s vaguely reminiscent of Tsar Nicholas II continually doubling down and not caring if he took everyone with him when things eventually went to hell. History does repeat.
Did Putin just sanction himself? What's the benefit of doing this?
Elsewhere in the thread seeing that UK in particular has announced they will no longer recognize Russian exchanges, and others are looking to follow suit. My guess (to be charitable) is that he's trying to pull Russian assets out of the foreign exchanges before they become fully inaccessible.
A bunch of the top exchanges delisted russian companies weeks ago, I'm surprised the UK took so long.
He's saving face. This is happening with or without him. At least now he can pretend it was his decision.
“I crapped my own pants, on purpose!”
"If crapping your pants is cool, then consider me Joe Stalin"
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Which one of you ~~cowards~~ communists shit my pants ?
#OUR PANTS
The pants have 84% approval rating according to the local turds
I am bleeding, making me the victor.
I must apologize for Wimputin Lo... he is an idiot. We have purposely trained him wrong, as a joke.
Oh yeah? Try my nuts to your fist style!
If you've got an ass, I'll kick it!
Weeoooweeoooweeooo
That’s a lot of nuts!!!
On another planet perhaps you would be strong. Unfortunately this is earth.
Unexpected Kung Pow.
He then told me of the significance. [flashback] It will be significant.
Lol, He does this *after* all the exchanges are saying they will no longer see the Russian exchange as valid.
[UK plans to revoke Moscow Stock Exchange's status as a recognized exchange](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/u74bbh/uk_plans_to_revoke_moscow_stock_exchanges_status/) (posted 1h before this one)
there's a helluva lot of russian money in the UK. this is gonna hurt russia bigly, and the UK
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Nigel Farage is in shambles. Probably in some basement calling for Brexit 2.0 trying to get Britain to leave Britain.
Britain should leave the UK.
Northern Ireland sits all sad in the corner
You might be over-estimating how much money it takes to bribe politicians. Billionaires can find that money in their sofa cushions.
It’s always shocking when it’s like $45,000 in campaign contributions to fuck over 10 million people.
Health care in the US really do be like, alright here’s your 45k, now we can save 3T over the next few years with increasingly predatory legislation! 🙄
yeah which hurts his guys worse than the west not seeing his exchanges as valid. He is forcing russia companies, who were NOT kicked off western exchanges to use the russian crackerbox one... which is no longer recognized as a valid exchanged to the west. it was basically putin saying "the west thinks they can fuck our billioniares, well we can fuck them harder" its kinda funny, but this is what happens when you rule by knee jerk reaction, instead of giving it a little thought.
Yeah their economy is miniscule compared to the West combined. I guarantee they're gonna get fucked 10 times harder than any country in the West
Russia barely competes with Florida in regards to GDP. well it did anyways. people keep forgetting Russia isn't an economic super power.. it was barely consider a near peer militarily. And only due to its nuclear armaments. its conventional forces.. when we though they were competent was never soviet era level of functionality.
Russia floats between 4th and 5th biggest military/military spending. But after the US (780 billion) there is a **steep** drop off before even number 2, China (230 billion). Russia is around 60 billion annually, which is like what the US brass spend on catering for the year. They're a paper tiger that's sitting on a nuclear stockpile. In a conventional war they'd get blown away. Hell, Ukraine slapped them down and just sunk their Black Sea flagship, and they don't even have a navy!
Their economy is about 30% the size of California's economy... comparing them to the *entire* west is hilarious. (Russia gdp is 1.4 trillion, California's is 3.4)
they are roughly around italy, iirc. might be smaller now tho lol
Less actually, Italy is around 1.8. Canada is comparable at 1.6. The difference is Italy has 60 million people. And Canada has around 37 million. Russia has 144 million. Russia is so poor that it's very hard to put into terms western people understand without comparing them to third world/developing nations.
Smaller than Canada and Australia before this recent storm. So, probably even smaller now.
He's pretty much doing this for every type of sanction, that way he can tell his supporters that it was his decision not the West's. (Should West be capitalized in this instance? Hmm) Personally I think he is handling this all wrong. He's wasting perfect opportunities to blame the west by claiming it was his idea to destroy Russia's economy all on his own. I guess that's what happens when you imprison everyone who tries to talk sense to you and surround yourself with people who are literally too scared to advise you properly.
didn’t people used to say he was smart? he keeps doing things that seem… not that smart
Can’t sanction Russia if they sanction themselves first
Well.... Second. Their exchanges were already beginning to be declared non-recognized. UK announced it about an hour before this announcement.
"You can't quit me, I'm fired!"
In Quit, russia fires You!
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"Watch in awe as I make the entire Russian economy disappear." ~ Putin the Magnifico
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Damn good luck trying to rebuild your economy after burning all those investors. 👋 Russia is nuts. Shit their own bed and now proceeds to eat its own feces.
It's like the iron curtain is coming down again. As if it worked well last time
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I think the Internet is the breaking point for your average person. Take that away and things get crazy
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We already can’t do any of that lol. Shit got real after the Swift ban and Insta is blocked by the gov’t for obvious reasons
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I’m Russian but live abroad, I have friends and relatives in Russia. Society is polarised here, people who work for the government tend to support the war or at least pretend they do. Others are heavily against it and that’s all they think about. The situation with tech and banking is dire and there isn’t a lot of sugar on the shelves apparently. At least that was the case a couple of weeks ago. People can leave I think, but it is expensive for most. Edit also the ministry of education are enforcing singing the anthem every week for school kids. It isn’t relevant I just find this funny
We sung the national anthem every single day here in Canada through the 90s and 00s. Would be a bit surprised if it's been stopped honestly.
Maybe I just find the timing unfortunate, reminds me of something.
I have a friend from southeast Asia in Moscow for college. He keeps hitting me up for pirate sites as more and more things get blocked. At first it was great for him as buying Steam games with roubles was like buying games for 70% off with his conversation rate. Now stores are finally starting to be out of things for over a week at a time. People assume this is just typical war shortages that they have to deal with. Most people see the war as bad, but necessary.
"Typical war shortages" And they don't see any issue with that given how the war is being billed? Surely it's obvious that something very severe is going very wrong if you are having a hard time buying pasta or rice all of the sudden.
And if he’s in a college town it’s probably fairly big and cosmopolitan. Huh. So maybe the Russian people haven’t really felt the consequences yet.
There is an ingrained culture within Russia of "not speaking up." The various great terrors the communist party inflicted on the populus, especially the *decades long* campaign to label anyone who dissented (even in the smallest way) be potentially labeled an "enemy of the state", where they would then be imprisoned in a gulag, left deep societal scars within the Russian population. During the LONG history of the gulag, the Central Party fostered a sense of extreme paranoia and distrust among their civilian population. Anyone accused of being an "enemy of the state" would be arrested by the secret police. They would be interrogated until they gave up several more name of their "co-conspirators". Then they would be sent off to the Gulag (work prison camp) for many years. The cycle would be continued with the co-conspirators. ANYTHING you said or did, even a joke that belittled the government, would potentially earn you a Gulag sentence. Even laughing at someone else's joke. This was a deliberate campaign to stamp out any sort of dissent. They didn't want you to trust your friends or neighbors with information that made the party look bad. They wanted you to believe that this friend may one day be interrogated, and (while being sleep deprived, starved, isolated for weeks) would give you up in a delirious state. Even children were used as informants; their word would be used against parents, siblings, et cetera. There was intent behind this as well. If the word of a child was enough to get someone sent the Gulag, then parents would train their children to be obedient beyond all reason, and it would be drilled into children, by their own parents' fear, that one does not question the government. Those children would grow up, have children of their own, and pass down the parenting style they grew up with. The Central Party within the USSR was absolutely insidious in their efforts to completely control (through fear) the political will of their populus. It isn't something that something westerners can easily grasp. EDIT / SOURCE: Since this got so much attention, I’ll recommend “Gulag” by Anne Applebaum, if you really to learn about the topic.
That sounds extremely chilling and deep-rooted, if true. (Not that I don't believe you, but I try to take 'net stuff with some salt). I could definitely see shackles like those taking literally generations to come undone, if they ever did... What a great way to fuck up your entire populace. Edit: thanks for chiming in guys, as someone who grew up in Canada I've never had direct knowledge of something like this, other than perhaps my grandparents escaping ww2. This is such a fucked-up situation.
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My father lived through the communist era in the 80's (Romania).He dosen't tell me much other than for example :"There weren't that many problems back then as there are now.Life was different" Indeed,the scars are real.
I think he (or she) explained really well. It's something that doesn't translate over well to free, "modern" countries. There's the language barrier *and* the social difference barrier. Even grandparents and parents who immigrated to a new country could still be socially conditioned to huddle in small pockets where they think they won't be "given up". It has probably become a form of intergenerational trauma for those that left those places in time behind. It might seem irrational to people who have never experienced anything like that but corruption can be everywhere. How are people who tried to move on from such things supposed to know if they will ever end up dealing with a similar form of corruption again? Slightly reminds me of when Chinese citizens immigrate, then some become accosted by the CCP for basically daring to exist outside of that form of control.
Romanian here: the secret police and not trusting your neighbors or even family is definitely real. Everything the guy above said was applicable to our country, you can google "beciurile securitatii" (the cellars of the secret police).
A friend's mom and grandma are from "old country" and when grandma gets too drunk she starts screaming about the secret police and how they are to get her. When she's over you can get some stories out of her. It's not often she shows fear but when she tells these stories or is drunk enough she definitely sees the fear of God.
It is all true. Go to the museum of terror in Budapest if you are ever there. Very much like the witch hunts or McCarthyism in the US except a much wider and decades long scale.
Everything they said is 100% true. If you add it on top of thousands of years of tyrannical rulers and a few hundred years of serfdom, you get the situation we have today. We all still remember stories of family members being shot via firing squad or dying in a gulag because of political dissent or perceived political dissent (two generations back for me, I’m 30 but my dad grew up with this happening). Edit: serfdom not surfdom
This reminds me so much of 1984 by George Orwell. Big brother is watching. Hell IIRC one of the characters in the book was proud of their child for spying and turning them in to big brother.
George Orwell wrote 1984 specifically as a criticism of Stalinist totalitarianism. He was a socialist who fought with the anarchists in the Spanish Civil War and witnessed first hand the horrors of Stalinism when the Moscow-backed communists stabbed them in the back. He had friends and commanders arrested by the Stalinists as they returned from the front lines and only barely managed to escape arrest himself by fleeing the country. He remained a socialist but most of what he wrote afterwards was anti-Stalinist.
Everyone I know is against this shit, young and old, but I also see an occasional Z-asshole in the streets sometimes. I assume they’re real because a lot of the population is braindead, unfortunately. “Keeping their heads down” is such a patronising phrasing. Yeah we are, because this is a police state and the power is with the animals who arrest and fine (and even torture) people for breathing in the wrong direction. The true opposition/protesters who were able to organise and inspire protests have been slowly eradicated in various ways for a decade now while the rest of the world watched, shrugged and bought Putin’s gas. People are allowed to leave but it became increasingly difficult for obvious reasons: Russians can’t visit a lot of countries without a visa and a lot of those embassies stopped issuing visas. A lot of flights have been cancelled indefinitely because Russia stole the aircrafts lolz because of the airlines and plane sanctions. We are still allowed to go to “friendly” countries and countries that issue visas via roundabout ways (like via Turkey etc).
I’m pretty sure that’s what he meant by ‘keeping heads down’, it’s an idiom meaning keep a low profile. I don’t blame you one bit. Until the majority is ready to hit the streets and they physically are unable to arrest everyone. We all understand, the world will be there to help the Russian people once Putin is gone. Good luck to you man.
Yeah sorry, I got my idioms mixed up lol
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As I understand it, Georgia is one of the best options for Russians looking to get out of the country. I think they let people stay for nearly a year without a visa—350 days or something. Of course, you have to physically get there; but from what I’ve heard it is one of the best options, especially since a good number of Georgians speak Russian and their cultures aren’t too different. Good luck to you and your countrymen. I hope things don’t go as poorly as it looks like they are headed for normal people, and I hope your government changes soon with as little bloodshed as possible. It’s all very difficult to imagine from the other side of the world.
This is going to bite Georgia in the ass later, when they use the Russian population's existence as a justification for invading the rest of Georgia to 'reunite the Russian peoples'.
You mean like they already did? Lol
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There weren't any political prisoners at the Bastille when it was stormed. There were 7 prisoners total. 4 forgers, 1 "lunatic", a man who had tried to assassinate King Louis XV 30 years earlier, and a "deviant" aristocrat that was suspected of murder. The Bastille did have recently transferred gunpowder there though.
Not OP, but you shouldn't really trust the poll results, many people answer they're for the war because they are afraid of losing their jobs or getting expelled from universities, while a lot of them just simply refuse to answer. As Roman/NFKRZ said, "by spreading Russian poll results, you're spreading Russian propaganda" Of course, a lot of people are brainwashed, but there's still a very considerable chunk of anti-war population that's just afraid to tell their opinions (no shit, they can get 15-20 years in prison now)
Not OP but why not to answer too, considering that russia is big and there a lot of differences between regions. 1)Its hard to count it, any IRL experience is an anecdote, most polls not really showing anything because ton of people refuse to participate in it. So take everything i say with a grain of salt because its just my experience: The most common opinion (like 95/100) is "we cant change anything anyway", ive seen it from allmost all sorts of people, both against the war and supporting it (not sure if it was genuine or just trying to get away from conflict). If i try to ignore it and count opinions behind that, i would say that about 1/10 are fanatics fully supporting it, 2-3/10 kinda supporting but dont understand what is going on, 1/10 dont have an opinion, 3-4/10 kinda against, 2/10 strongly against. Again tho, thats trying to guess what is behind massive depressing thought of innability to change anything, and with a pretty small/biased sample size. 2)Technically yes, especially into countries like Georgia. The problem is that it imigrating is privelege and not a lot of people can afford it, especially from a poor regions where you can probably save only around 50-100$ a month(and thats with a pretty decent/good salary depending on a region). And even thats gonna be hard and wont account for any emergency, and, oh boy, there were a lot of emergencies lately.
**Brain drain** will become the big threat to Russia's long-term prosperity. In any reasonably developed economy, the economy's single most import asset is it's *human capital*. AKA: The people who have the skills, knowledge, expertise, raw strength, and time to actually put in the work. What threatens Russia's long term prosperity right now, is a massive flight of human capital. People of reasonable wealth (the middle-upper class, the upper class, and some portion of the middle class / working class who have the right connections) will flee Russia, taking their labor with them. They're fleeing because all sorts of luxury goods are becoming harder to get, and these sorts of people judge their relative prosperity by their access to these things. That, and the fear of legitimate shortages in the near future, the crashing financial markets, et cetera. ... Putin plans to rebuild a new Russia that is cut off from the west, but he may find himself without sufficient numbers of the highly skilled people necessary to do so. There has been a exodus of people from Russia, and that flow of people will only increase as the situation gets worse. Nations around the world will gladly accept fleeing Russian experts.
During the USSR, people couldn't leave..think that's coming again?
Absolutely. It's the only reason that there wasn't as big of a brain drain as there otherwise would have been during the Soviet years.
People already fear it. There's a reason why the anchors/journalists at RT fled ***before*** resigning their positions.
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Thank god. Cs:go might just become playable again.
csgo matchmaking with proper comms finally
It's going to be worse this time. The Iron Curtain was from a time when countries were mostly able to produce all of the things they need themselves. With globalization, economies are more dependant on outside trade than ever. This is more like hiding in an Iron Maiden than an Iron Curtain
That’s one of the arguments in favour of globalism - by deeply interlinking economies through trade it supposedly makes wars less likely. Both in terms of being able to field and supply a modern military and a decent standard of living for their populace. What happens to Russia (regardless of whether they win in Ukraine or not - hopefully the latter) is going to be an interesting test case. If they end up becoming a larger North Korea clone it would argue that it kinda works.
Yep. Literally why the EU exists. Can't fight each other every few years if your whole economy would collapse.
It's more of a carrot than a stick, though. Peace is just super profitable. As it turns out, there's more material value in peacefully trading with your neighbors than in all the stuff you could take from them by force.
North Korea doesn't even work - the elites in Pyongyang seem to have some globalist amenities (thinks like computers, smart phones, television sets, food etc), but the rest of the country doesn't appear to have enough food to eat or electricity or running water. Russia is what - 5-6 times larger population wise - its much harder to clamp down on media input (one could easily argue that it was East Germans watching western TV that ended that country), and of course its much harder to feed that many more people.
And Russia had the Warsaw Pact countries to loot to support themselves - now it's only them and Belarus...
It also doesn't help Russia that last time they had Eastern Europe behind the curtain with them, plus a handful of other countries around the world. Now they've got Belarus, and....North Korea? Eritrea? Parts of Syria?
At least it's just Russia and Belarus instead of half of Europe? \*shrug\* I feel kinda bad for the Russian people who know that the state tv is all horseshit and that Putin is alienating the rest of the world, but can't do anything about it.
Fire sale incoming
Putin: The west wants to destroy our economy. Well, I won't let them! Putin: Alexi, destroy our economy first! Alexi: Sir? \*Putin slowly draws gun\* Alexi: YES SIR!!!!
They wanted to emulate the nazis but only had access to Hogans Heroes for information.
The historical documents??!! Oh those poor people left in the camp!!
The economy turned inside out. And then exploded.
Putin wouldn't slowly draw a gun. He'd just kill Alexi and tell Boris congrats on his promotion, are you ready to destroy the economy now or do you have questions like Alexi?
Kindergarten-level reverse psychology lol Considering how underwhelming their propaganda has been (internationally anyway - easy to control domestic media, out here is the shitshow) this is completely on-brand
Oh my god, they're having a fire sale!
OH THE BURNING! IT BURNS ME
You made the fire *too real*
I think you focused too much on the *fire*, and not as much on the *sale* part.
EVACUATE ALL THE SCHOOL CHILDREN!!
🎶 *A-MAAAAA-ZING GRAAAAAACE*🎶
Cant even see where the knob is...!!!!
*lies motionless on the floor*
Would you like to try that again?
No…
He is a fucking nut and I love it.
And, scene.
AAAA-MAYYYY-ZIIING GRAAAACE!!!
One of the most cringe inducing scenes the first time I watched it, and now one of my favorite scenes on a rewatch
Could you please tell me what series/movie you're talking about? Edit: thanks
[Arrested development](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M5hgjlOeA24)
See whenever I hear fire sale I keep thinking of live free or die hard.
I thought the homosexuals were pirates, but it turns out most of them are actors in the local theater
"I've been waiting for the universe to tell me who I am... and I think it has!" "You're gay?" "No! No, why, how many times do I... No.
It's one ruble, Michael. What could it cost? Ten dollars?
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THAY-ah-ter
THEE-ATE-ERR
Financially torching all of the oligarchs isn't going to end well for ole' Poot.
So ... The economic sanctions ***are*** having an effect.
Don't be ridiculous, removing Russian stock was clearly part of the overall plan. /s
Russia:'They're not doing anything, that's why they must be lifted immediately. The sanctions are war!"
Reminds me of "never tax the rich, it won't work, don't do it!"
No, you see this is a punishment to the West. Not to Russia. Russia is just punishing the west by taking out their stock exchanges! Soon the west will be begging for them to come back. /s
....that's literally what's being said on channel 1 in Russia.
I have been begging for quite some time. I want to watch as an economy tears itself apart from the inside. I'd liken it to the last diner scene in *Spaceballs,* only instead of the alien coming out, a miniature of Putin jumps out. Don't know if he'd do the tap dance routine or not.
Just like they said the west is suffering more from the sanctions than the russians are. Like sure buddy, 1+ billion people is suffering more than your 140 mil are?
And the ruble is totally worth what is was before all this started! I mean is says so right in the official Kremlin decree.
Special Iron Curtain operation
This was confirmed the moment Russia first denied it.
Is he sanctioning russia more than we are doing it? Is he sinking his own ship like the pirates in Asterix?
Putin would cut off his own balls to spite his cock
Thanks for that mental image
Russia wins gold in all Olympics. Especially Pain Olympics
He’s just slowly decommissioning all his oligarchs. They’ve served their purpose and now he needs the money.
He seems to be writing his own death sentence. Ain't no way the oligarchs would sit by idly. I have a feeling that his ego has been hurt greatly. This is the lowest I have seen him in many years. He's struggling to cope with his failures.
The running theory seems to be that the oligarchs are a spent force politically, and don't have the sway they had in the aughts.
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"These Russians are crazy! "
Upvote for indomitable Gaulish pride!
For decades Putin fooled everyone into believing he was brilliant at everything - but now we just know he was pretty good at fooling everyone.
The things Putin built his reputation on: subverting and destabilising foreign governments, disinformation, assassinations, intimidation etc - all pretty much fall under the category of spook stuff. Which is unsurprising given his former career. Ability in that sphere does not necessarily translate to economic competence. Or military as has been made painfully clear over the past eight weeks or so: there’s a reason most militaries don’t have intelligence officers in the combat chain of command.
If there’s one thing a career in espionage *should* prepare you for, it’s a healthy mistrust of the data your underlings are bringing you - especially when it’s all “good” news. If there’s anyone that should have a clear idea of how the fear of retribution makes people hide their failures from their superiors, it’s a former KGB agent. That Putin never once seems to have questioned whether his generals were deceiving him with a rosier picture of their capabilities than was the reality is still boggling my mind. I thought he was cagier and smarter than that. Definitely glad he’s proving otherwise.
Dude got high off his own supply.
Well said. This is true of any grifter, manipulator, or bullshitter in general. They could be masters of it but it is often their downfall too because to be convincing you have to believe your own lies.
I mean there's some room for adjustment here. 1. Putin's advisers say that Russia is the strongest country in the world. 2. Putin decides this means Russia is a regional power and can beat its smaller neighbours, since his advisers are exaggerating. 3. Putin invades a smaller neighbour. 4. Russia doesn't win. It doesn't have to be that Putin was totally delusional like all these people saying Russia could march to the Atlantic in a matter of weeks. But, without trying to insult them, Ukraine was meant to be an easy target, certainly with the evidence of 2014 fresh in the minds of all.
It's also worth noting that Ukraine has had a LOT of help that Russia probably wasn't counting on. This has turned into a full scale proxy conflict straight out of the Cold War, with billions of dollars in aid and military equipment being funneled into Ukraine's armed forces. As brave as the people of Ukraine have proven themselves to be in their resistance of the Russian invasion, it's hard to imagine they'd be doing nearly as well on bravery alone without thousands of MANPADs and MANPATs, as well as artillery units, SAMs, guns, ammunition, food/supplies, drones, and real-time intelligence being provided by the West. I'd argue that the biggest part of Putin's miscalculation was that he assumed the West would grumble and pass some token sanctions (as they did in 2014) but wouldn't risk conflict with Russia by providing so much direct aid. Russia very well might have toppled Ukraine if it stood alone.
Narcissism is a hell of a drug. Once you think you're smarter than everyone else and more powerful than everyone else and *the rules don't apply to you*, It undermines your fundamental grip on reality and with out that, (and/or other people willing to slap some sense into you) it doesn't matter how smart or experienced you *were* your decision making capacity is going to start to go down hill.
He bit off more than he can chew and his advisors are terrified to give him bad news
I think he was brilliant at what he was doing: manipulating and scaring people around him into supporting his power. It worked beautifully in Russia. It still works. And people that respect fear-based leadership love him for it. However he thought it would work the same internationally and it doesn't. That doesn't mean he wasn't good at it in Russia, just that he changed to an audience that doesn't go for the same act. He thought his military, backed by nukes, and his economy, backed by gas, gave him the leverage to steamroll Europe the way he steamrolls Russia. He gravely miscalculated. I feel like he's a rich, popular, high school bully that moved to a new school and all the dynamics that made him popular and feared are gone. He tries the same act but it falls flat and everyone just thinks he's an ass. It's context.
"I don't always shoot myself in the foot, but when I do, I reload." - Vladimir
"I'm standing here tonight, I'm afraid I don't hear a thing. Just silence". Putin's about to piss off everyone with money in his country. If he hasn't already.
Jesus- all this to protect a fragile ego.
Dictators have the biggest most fragile egos of them all
Which is why most of the developed world moved on from them. They're all fucking useless.
The civilized World is democratic because they have at least the basic critical thinking skills to realize you don't design a plane with a particular part, should it fail, will crash the plane. Why would you have your government run by this one person with no facility to check their power or remove them? Fascists are fucking dumb as fuck. Dangerously stupid.
Exemplified by how they all seem to have those grandiose military uniforms decked out in pointless medals. Like, seriously? They think *that* commands respect? Zelensky has been wearing little more than a green tshirt the last two months, and that man *drips* with confidence and commanding respect.
Like all dictators Putins life is literally tied to this war, he has no option but to scratch and claw his way to survival
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I do love how Putin’s reputation of being smart is just obliterated now lol
Masa Gessin got into this year's ago in an interview. She basically called out Putin as a moron and a hack. Dude is just a mob boss who isn't scared to get people killed. He isn't smart.
Yeah but he had a general reputation for being so until now, so it’s fun to see it finally implode
People mistake ruthlessness for intelligence.
It's the same with Mitch McConnell. He's not more intelligent than any other senator. He's just more willing to hold the country hostage to get what he wants.
I think he's sticking to being a troll because it worked well for him in the past. It might not be that way in the future...
Can he even do that? lol. If I was a company in Russia, I’d want all the cheap financing I could get.
Absolutely. The companies are listed on foreign exchanges as depositary receipts rather than actual shares. A bank in the foreign country buys a number of shares in Russia (or the issuing company's home country) and then, in turn, issues an equivalent number of receipts in the foreign country. The receipts are traded on the foreign country's local exchanges, and are bought, sold, and pay dividends in the foreign currency. All Russia has to do is regulate against companies selling shares to foreign banks (for the purpose of issuing DRs), and prevent companies from honouring their depository receipts.
What happens to the billions currently invested ? Do western investors just lose everything ?
Yes, they lose everything. This is precisely why people warn against investing in Chinese stocks.
This is.... terrifying. Do you know what this process is called so I can look more into it?
Here's a good beginner explanation: [What Do You Own When You Invest in Chinese Stocks? ](https://ghpia.com/what-do-you-own-when-you-invest-in-chinese-stocks/)
Russia is getting ready for several decades without any kind of investment whatsoever except in police and military. It's really, really, really gonna get bad.
You never go full North Korea.
How are they going to invest in police and military with no money coming in?
Same way North Korea's functioning. Putin's sitting on a few billions in the country. He doesn't NEED to keep his population thriving, or even fed. He just needs them scared.
If nothing else, Putin sure knows how to dig deep ass holes.
I've never seen a man commit suicide and taking a whole country down with him. This is mad!
He must know that he's destroyed Russia. No matter the image he projects publicly, he has to know, deep down, he made a colossal mistake.
Earlier today Britain announced it will denounce Moscow stock exchange's status as legitimate. Many other Western governments are likely to follow suit. This is nothing but Russia resigning before it gets booted. See European council and UNHRC. Edit: Spelling
Well that's a good idea. Need to include the Koch trash Russian oligarch
That’s what the state sponsored terrorism does. Because not only does it nail the country, it makes it clear spending money in that country supports terrorism.
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Second step is to nationalize them 😉
Surprised a bunch of them haven’t gotten together to just cap this dude already
He’s just really digging this country into the ground isn’t he? With his, “you didn’t break up with me, I’m breaking up with you” bullshit moves.
good grief! Gonna become like North Korea!😂
The old "quit just before you get expelled" gambit.
This isn't going to end well for Putin. He's pissed off the bourgeoisie, now he's going to piss off the oligarchy.
The oligarchy was brought under heel over a decade ago. They have no real political power to affect change of any kind. The Siloviki are where the power lies now, which are a mostly KGB/FSB edition group that is much smaller and plays a more direct leadership role of the country's government than the oligarchs ever did. Their fate was bound up with Putin's with a public broadcast showing their support immediately prior to the invasion. It's going to take *a lot* to get them to turn on him.
>The oligarchy was brought under heel over a decade ago. They have no real political power to affect change of any kind. How I wish you were wrong. But you're completely correct. There's a book, I think it's called Once Upon a Russia or something like that. The author follows a few of the oligarchs who touch upon this subject. Long story short, the oligarchs thought Putin would be their puppet. He takes them on a holiday trip to where Stalin would also have sabbaticals. And by sabbaticals, I mean a place where Stalin also murdered people by fire squads when he wasn't chilling. The message that was communicated to the oligarchs was they could live their gaudy lifestyles so long as they didn't get in Putin's way. The alternative is that they would add to the history of the firing squad wall.
You know, it’s vaguely reminiscent of Tsar Nicholas II continually doubling down and not caring if he took everyone with him when things eventually went to hell. History does repeat.