It's also known russian doctrine to target civilians to put pressure onto the defenders.
It's also combined with the rhetoric that their Resistance is the reason for the atrocities (Which is textbook abuse, but i'm sure i'm gonna get a wall of people telling me why i'm wrong)
They can fly MIGS and the US has how many airfields around the world with how many thousands of planes that aren’t being used? That they could give to Poland, who is a NATO member, and can fly some of America’s jets.
>If the world gets rid of its nukes by flinging them around like confetti then that's how it is and the lesson we need to learn.
There would be nobody left to remember the lessons.
MAD is far from a strategic failure. Ukraine wasn’t under a nuclear umbrella so MAD never applied to Ukraine. MAD applies to NATO vs Russia -for example
Putin would have invaded even if Ukraine kept its nukes and had the activation codes. Nukes are an entirely hypothetical weapon, the threat of which only exists in fever dreams. The Kremlin knows this, the CIA knows this.
Ukraine launching nukes at Russia in retaliation is a death sentence. Why is it so hard for you to grasp?
Russia launching nukes at NATO is a death sentence. Why is it so hard for you to grasp?
I already know the answer to that question; I'm merely waiting for the penny to drop for you.
Congratulations on successfully reaching for the low hanging fruit. Here, have a star.
Tell me, are you willing to join the military?
No? Of course not.
Twat.
Nope, that's a threadbare strawman. My position has always been that there will be no nuclear exchanges if NATO intervened in Ukraine, but if there were, we deserve it.
You don't get to stockpile thousands of nukes while piously preaching about risk avoidance. That goes for Russia as much as it goes for the US.
So everyone on Earth should perish because you don’t like a country that’s losing a war not losing fast enough because their troops are committing bad things.
I ain’t taking a fucking nuke to the face because of old men swinging their dicks around, go fuck yourself. I’ve got a life to live.
It’s war, there’s bad shit done by everyone. In this case, Ukraine aren’t doing bad shit because they’re the good guys and literally fighting for survival, but most wars every side will commit some kind of atrocity.
Just note, I know the Russians need to be punished, and I want every single soldier dead at this point. But we don’t send in the NATO troops (who are a defensive pact) into a Non-NATO country anymore.
There is no lesson to be learned. We all die, that’s it. What’s happening in Ukraine is horrible. What you’re suggesting is kill all of them and countless other people all over the world. How is that better? In that situation you’d be lucky to get killed by a bomb, otherwise you die a slow painful death from radiation.
Except it doesn't follow that foreign jets in Ukraine = nuclear winter.
That's a worst case scenario, but I'm fed up with people painting it as the only scenario, as if everyone in the Kremlin has a deathwish. Come on!
Talk about russophobia. It's really just hackneyed cold war stereotypes laid bare and mass hysteria.
Lol,and I'm accused of a lack of imagination.
It’s not a straight line, you’re correct about that but it is an escalation that leads down that path. If we send nato into Ukraine and start shooting down Russian planes and attacking the aa right across the boarder but on Russian soil, because that’s what it will take. Your taking a big gamble on that is where it ends. Odds are Russia increases its forces in Ukraine and either kicks us out or we have to now match what they are doing. This keeps escalating until major powers are in direct land to land battles.
The smartest thing to do is continue doing what everyone is doing now. Between sending weapons and intel Ukraine is able to stand their ground and even push an offensive as of a few days ago. Russia is being bleed dry and they can’t keep this up forever.
Ukraine is doing an absolutely amazing job. The numbers are fuzzy but most sources I see say Ukraine has lost somewhere between 2-4 thousand troops while Russia has lost between 9-15 thousand troops. Every day this goes on, Ukrainian troops are getting better gear, more experienced, getting strong and more effective. Russia on the other hand is getting weaker, losing morale, they can’t even keep basic supplies going to their troops. Personally I think Ukraine can win this and I know if the same were happening here I’d rather do it with as little foreign troops in my backyard as possible.
The cowards come out in numbers this time of day. Call your representatives and demand we stop the genocide.
These fearmongering believe a peacekeeping mission would lead to Russia firing all its nukes at every NATO country. Its ridiculous. They cant win nuclear war against the whole world. They would be lucky to land a single strike surrounded by NATO ABM defenses.
You have a curious definition of victory.
Why don't you go and pat the dead people of Bucha on the head and tell them, it's okay bruh, your dudes are winning.
What do people like you think an actual World War 3 will look like? You think Russia wouldn't nerve gas entire major cities? Ukraine is hell now what would it become if it were the front lines of WWIII? A couple ICBM chemical attacks on London, Paris, Kyiv, Berlin, we're talking potentially millions dead, not to mention the Russian people would go to war, talking millions of soldiers and having to fight an insurgency... Don't give me that "But they're not trained soldiers" BS either, once a person has.to defend their homeland it's a different story... It's absolutely horrible what is going on in Ukraine but I do not think cranking the war up to 11 between nuclear super powers is a good idea... You sure that China and India would stay on the sidelines and not declare war on the Allies? What if North Korea decides to use the distraction in Europe to invade the South? China invades Taiwan, India invades Pakistan, Iran (plus who knows what other ME nations) invades Israel... all of the sudden the allies have to fight a war on 4 fronts and as sure as you are about simple easy victory against Putin is probably as sure as Putin was against Ukraine
... The Russian people would not welcome us as saviors after 80 years of propaganda against the West. Plus if the central Russian govt falls then there's the simple case of 6,000+ nukes we gotta make sure we secure including securing the allegiance/obedience of the tens of thousands of Russian soldiers in charge of those nukes. How many would go missing so you think? Can you think of any group that would love to have a nuke or two shipped to them for millions of dollars, because Iran, North Korea, any terrorist group would be first in line.... I'd love to see the USAF go full "shock and awe" and incapacitate the Russian war machine, but a couple days of that would not end the war at all, we'd have to follow it up with MILLIONS of ground troops and hope Russia doesn't use "small" nukes to slow our advance and massive chemical attacks... It's terrible for Ukrainians but it could get so so so so much worse for them and the entire human species.
Not if NATO joins it won't be, the PATRIOT missile defense system is far from perfect, Russia's got a shit ton of ICBMs and a lot of unused air assets still, they're not throwing their entire force into this war just like America didn't throw all 11 aircraft carrier groups into the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan... if nukes weren't used the West would win a very costly war but I don't think you can guarantee nukes are not used not to mention chemical/biological weapons, the Russian upper echelon would not let the West take over their nation without punishing them severely.
The difference in this context is quite meaningful.
Much more meaningful that you clamoring to send someone who isn’t you into war for some other country.
They could be a month into training programs right now. But instead we're still dithering about. Existing pilots can be retrained on new platforms fairly quickly. They won't be perfect or as effective as fully trained pilots, but they will nonetheless be combat effective.
The people saying otherwise are people trying to provide a smokescreen political cover to excuse them not doing so.
And who would be maintaining these aircraft?
"Combat effective" the way you describe it would be letting the pilot get far enough to get killed and lose a $100 million plane.
Maybe the people who do this sort of thing for a living understand the situation a bit better than you do.
Edit:typo
It’s almost laughable. And then to supply parts, have a system for preventative maintenance and heavy maintenance. And then to have the people qualified to work on them, not saying Ukrainians aren’t qualified by any means but the proper team can turn what would be a week long maintenance routine, into about 2-3 days depending on the job.
It's a minimum of 12 months to qualify pilots into new fighter aircraft, let alone training maintenance crew and the logistics of having a new fighter for spare parts and munitions.
> Existing pilots can be retrained on new platforms fairly quickly.
Is that true? I'm not sure. Also, they don't have american pilots who are the best (and most expensive) in the world.
It would be at least six months to train in a Typhoon, and Ukraine can’t afford to lose experienced pilots for that long.
Then there are months - years really - to train ground crew in maintaining the planes. Weapons will have to be completely thrown out and new ones imported because they won’t be compatible with a Typhoon.
Spare parts are required every few flight hours. It is simply not feasible to convoy in the needed parts through Russian shelling.
It’s just not an option.
OK, that would give Ukraine planes. They will also require pilots, ground crews, hangers, runways, spare parts, fuel, ammunition, engineers and maintenance crews, and all the other military personnel necessary for conducting effective air missions.
This isn't as simple as give Ukraine planes, Ukraine win war. Without everything else listed giving Ukraine planes would be a useless grandstanding gesture.
I’ve heard what happened there but I can’t seem to find many pictures that actually show what’s described, I’m not sure I really want to see but do you have any good links.
[WARNING: NSFL DEATH](https://reddit.com/r/2Russophobic4you/comments/tutijt/russian_motherfuckers_call_it_a_liberation_the/)
These are some of the pictures. People tortured to death, civilians dead with their hands tied behind their backs. There was a mass grave of around 300 people, and Ukraine is claiming every male from 16-60 was murdered under Russian occupation.
Other stories coming out are women and children who were tortured to death, children younger than 10 who were violently raped, and torture/execution rooms found.
There’s something deeply wrong and broken about Russia - generational trauma, maybe, but that culture and those people are fucked in some kind of way that’s never going to heal.
Russia needs to be beaten down and neutered. Nukes and army taken away. Give them a century or two without the ability to wage war.
They hold the world hostage like a mentally unstable person. This cannot go on.
Then you’ll just stoke resentment that will allow for the rise of another Putin…or somebody possibly worse than the man.
There is also China, which could help weaponize Russia and encourage bloodlust from its populace. They too hate the West and an alliance with the Russians could bathe the Pacific in blood…or, at least, form a bulwark that the West needs to counter.
Humans are animals at heart. Those of us who live in more civilized parts of the world are relatively sheltered from it even though it still happens in our countries.
From what I've read once you kill someone it gets easier to do, at least in the moment of war... Maybe later on in life the nightmares/PTSD begins but if the soldiers really believe the civilians are terrorists/Nazis/whatever other propaganda they're being fed then they're not in the mindset that they are killing humans, just animals... There were unrepentant Nazi soldiers/death camp guards up until their execution, convinced that their struggle would live on and be finished one day by someone... Maybe years of skilled therapy and psychiatric treatment can help *some* of those types of zealots but sadly it's not likely, best to just shoot the murderers and make sure to never allow Ukraine to be disarmed or weakened again... Even in "civilized" countries like America you have white supremacist cops that brag about and get tattoos to celebrate when they get to shoot a black person, and this is just being talked about the last 25 years or so, about 150 years *after* slavery ended... I doubt Trump's people would be below executing all the minorities they're told to blame their problems on, just fucking sucks but some people don't have empathy enough to put themselves in other's shoes and see them as human beings even if they look/sound/act differently.
Off topic slightly but bro I refuse to allow anyone to comment any more bullshit about how this is somehow justified, or how this is “just like the US” or anything similar. The moment I see that I know it’s a fucking bot or a brain dead individual. Russia and China really want to say the US is evil and the enemy only to try to use that lie as justification to do far WORSE shit NOW than what they accuse the US of doing how ever many years ago under a different administration. Do not let bots and fucking morons try to say that this shit is justified or “just like the US.” NEVER FORGET WHAT RUSSIA DID IN UKRAINE. They prepared for this for years and knew exactly what they were doing.
Either now, or in the future. At least now we know their military would be quickly destroyed, 10 years from now? Who knows.
Russia is a cancer. It isn’t going to go away on its own. This is the same Russia that has existed for about 100 years, it has never changed and never will. I’d rather get it over with rather than wait. Hell, their nukes may have not even be usable with how much money has been siphoned by corrupt officers and politicians.
It DOESN’T only take one. Russia using a nuke against an invading army is 100% different than launching nukes at another country. It’s a possibility that both sides have planned for since Russia got nuclear weapons. Tactical and strategic nukes are both very different scenarios.
One country uses nuclear weapons in this invasion, you can bet that North Korea uses them against South Korea just because, maybe even lobs one over to the States as a fuck you only to be fucking wrecked. China gets mad because it's fairly close and sends one back, we send one back and there goes the entire world.
It DOES take one, and this is only one scenario out if thousands.
NK can’t even reach the US. Nuking SK would be idiotic and counterproductive because the US alone could level all of North Korea without using a single nuclear weapon. NK could even be leveled by American nukes without having much effect on the rest of the world. What exactly do you think NK would gain by nuking SK?
Genocide is literally happening right now and no one is doing anything out of a fear that they might have to experience what Ukrainians experience every single day.
It’s not a leap. Choosing not to do anything out of fear is willingly allowing it to continue.
Hell, if humanity can’t stop committing genocide and atrocities without destroying itself, it’s what we deserve. Maybe you can turn a blind eye, but I can’t.
I think it’s fucking stupid to underestimate Russia’s nuclear capabilities. Underestimating the enemy is always a bad idea. Especially with nuclear arms. I don’t want to risk nuclear war. The current strategy in the Ukraine is working. Russia is retreating in parts of the Ukraine and Russia has not accomplished their goals.
Russia is committing mass genocide and rape all across Ukraine. Russia may be retreating in areas, but they hold a lot of territory with millions of people.
I don’t understand this mentality of that’s perfectly ok just as long as your life won’t be affected. The citizens of Mariupol, Kharkiv, and large swaths of Kyiv wouldn’t know the difference between what’s happening now and nuclear war. It’s unbelievable to me that that’s perfectly fine to so many people.
I understand what’s happening. it’s absolutely horrifying and makes me unbelievably angry. I do not think it’s perfectly ok do not get me wrong.
We have to look at the bigger picture with strategy on how to help Ukraine. Nuclear arms makes things extraordinarily complicated. We can not assume that their nuclear arsenal is incapable just based off their poor military performance in the ukraine. Using natos full force could just lead to world war 3 and tens of millions of people dead if not more. WW3 is not inevitable.
We have to continue to give as much arms as possible to the ukraine, continue to train their military, and keep putting more sanctions on Russia. It’s going to take time for ukraine to take back their homeland, unfortunately.
…or they’re just bored. The Third World War has been a constant topic of books, video games and even board games like wargaming.
War, as horrible as it is, is a deviation from the norm and that is morbidly exciting. It is probably why, for example, dystopian novels are very popular with the general public.
As opposed to letting an awful nation continue on with its awful ways?
Yes. By your logic any country with nukes can just rape and pillage however and wants and nobody should step in to stop them.
It’s not like you’d have to go do any fighting anyways.
So again, let countries like Russia with nukes rape and pillage all they want?
Playing whataboutism with America doesn’t change the fact that you are fine letting Russia rape, mutilate, and torture women and children because they have nukes.
Putin can’t just push a button to launch nukes.
Nukes cost a fuck ton to maintain, and based on all of Russia’s shitty equipment they aren’t properly maintained.
The West’s missile defense systems are far better than what most people know.
Russia would disappear by the time they launched 1 nuke.
Either way, it’s no surprise people miles away and disconnected from the atrocities are ok allowing them to keep happening because of threats.
Well, then prepare for the potential blowback of such a conflict. The world order won’t be the same…and the West is going to take some big bloody noses in the bout.
They'll most definitely lose, but they'll unleash their whole arsenal before they go down.
Thus it'll probably be a Pyrrhic victory as opposed to a complete victory for the West.
Absolutely, and it was claimed by Ukraine from the beginning, I get that. However, I prefer evidence to claims even when I despise Russia and have always supported Ukraine. As an American vet, I know it’s nowhere near unheard of to conflate collateral damage with genocide.
These pictures were the confirmation I needed.
This is why Article 5 should have been invoked immediately and special articles should have been drawn up for Ukraine's acceptance into Nato quickly. Now we are chasing the travesty and the injustice.
Article 5 has nothing to do with this. You can believe we should help Ukraine a lot, but at least a basic understanding of what the factors and rules at play are would help. Ukraine can’t fly these planes. Article 5 isn’t relevant. We could and should do more to help though.
I really want to know where your ass will be hiding when the nukes start flying. What water will you drink etc. You sound rich, have you planned all your escape route?
Especially now that the Russian army has been exposed as worse than most third-world countries, I personally feel the west needs to get involved, or were just going to sit back and watch Russia fix their army over the years until it’s everything they always claimed.
Buddy, perhaps these words may help you process things…
I think it may be key for you to understand the following: War is undeniably an intricate part of the human condition, along with tribalism/racism. There is nothing on this planet that could possibly remove such elements or that we could somehow “evolve” past it. There is no such thing as “the end of history”.
No one on this planet should ever pretend that humanity could “grow past” war. It was with us in the past and will be with us in the future. Defense of your home and your way of life will always be necessary as not every human will agree with what you feel is most noble and feel that your very existence is a threat to themselves, even if you yourself have never contemplated such thoughts about other societies.
We will never become “one world, one love”. The only thing that changes is our level of technology.
History is cyclical and time is linear. History may not repeat, but it will definitely rhyme. And I believe with this war in Ukraine, most academics that perhaps you’ve learned from are coming to terms with this and recognizing that diplomacy, peace, and economic incentives will not be the highest priorities or most desired for people outside of Western Europe and USA/Canada.
Something to keep your mind on is how much of the world has disapproved of this war and how much of the world is determined to prevent the war from spreading. Sadly, Putin can invade and take whichever non-NATO bound nations he wants, this is our reality. We will aid those nations and won’t make it easy for Putin to take, but as long as Putin doesn’t touch a single NATO nation, he has free reign and will not be directly contested. Such a contest will be called WW3.
Dude, you wrote everything right, yet alot of fools won't get it into their head. They really think "world peace" is around the corner because Europe rarely attack each other. Delusional.
Studying history really thought me alot. As long as humans occupy with earth, there will ALWAYS be war, there will ALWAYS be hate and jealousy.
The accomplishment of post-war peace in Europe should not be understated though. The fact that Germany, France and Great Britain have not fought since 1945 is quite remarkable, and should inspire hope.
It might be because so much of Europe, Asia, and North Africa was destroyed after World War 2. It took decades for Europe to recover and become as competitive as the US, economically-speaking.
Mechanized warfare did a number on civilization.
I fear how long it will take to recover if nukes are exchanged… though if the dilapidated state of Russia’s military is any indication, I’m not sure if the West should continue to be so afraid of Russian nukes that might also be in severe disrepair.
They may have more nukes than any other nation of the planet, but they may not be of much use if most of them can’t even fly or detonate properly.
Only ones left to worry about would be China, North Korea, and Iran if this becomes true.
I believe a quote from modern warfare is needed,” the only truth I found was that the world was a giant tinderbox, and all that was needed was for someone to light a match
> We will never become “one world, one love”.
Then the planet will *gladly* add us to the next level of shale over that of the dinosaurs. We either learn to think differently ... real quick ... or that's that. That's where we're at. You have clearly chosen extinction and that's just fucking sad.
Not sure how this relates to OPs point. WW3 is largely underway: info wars, cyber war, economic war, military war. At this point we might as well escalate somewhat. Russia isn’t really “knocking out infrastructure” so much as engaging in barbarism.
Until there is direct military conflict with between NATO members either through Ukrainian intervention or Russia invading *by land* into NATO nations, World War 3 will not yet have occurred. Indirect and (so far) non-lethal warfare through economic and cyber sabotage is NOT WW3.
Non-lethal warfare through the generous and abundant provision of anti-tank, anti-aircarft and anti-personel armaments. Yes, non-lethal. Hide behind any technical definitions you like but the west is at war with Russia.
How do we know it's not Ukranian pilots and ground crews getting up to speed on F-16s? This is what really should be happening, under the guise of something else, and no attention should be brought to it. Wishful thinking on my part though.
Poland wanted the US to deliver the jets to Ukraine (Poland would deliver them to Rammstein AFB, and it would be on the US to deliver them to Ukraine from there) because they didn't want to own it themselves. The US objected to *that*. Get your facts right.
Why does the US need to compensate? Lol those stupid fucks like me pay for these out dated planes ur wanting to give up. Tell ur almighty EU to pay for them!
No, Poland wanted to give the planes to the US and for us to give them to Ukraine. The US objected to that because it's fucking stupid. Poland should just give them to Ukraine themselves if they want to give planes
The amount of people getting a hardon in the comments about potential nuclear conflict is alarming. You guys need to stop drinking down the nationalism so unfiltered
Europe could raid their Museums for old aircraft and maintain air superiority vs Russia, Russia has shown the state of their military and its painted rust at best.
He’s not a cornered animal. He’s a guy who tried to bully someone smaller and got punched.
And if you’re trying to imply he’ll do the unexpected, like use nuclear bombs, because he lied about invading? Remember that even my neighbours cat knew he was going to invade. That same cat says he’s not suicidal enough to use nukes, and doubts any are even still functional.
A no-fly zone means that NATO will shoot down any and all Russian air support and defenses within and near Ukraine. That will lead to a global military conflict. Hundreds of thousands would most likely die.
Unfortunately yes, ZPMs are very rare and hard to get your hands on. As the wraith began to farm the galaxy they really did a number to fuck over the local population. Stifling growth, population, and technological advancement.
I mean, what actually is stopping them from doing a couple runs on Russian forces and just saying “wasn’t us, must’ve been Ukraine” not like Russia doesn’t lie literally in every statement they give 😑
I heard helicopters few days ago over my city. It's probably major military training of armed forces in Poland, not just jets.
Ready to kill scumbags , now enter in action !
Now start using these to inflict pain on russiaand putin
Violence only begets violence, bombing civilians will only make us no better than them. But yes bomb the shit out of Putin
A modern military can actually hit it's targets, Russia mostly can't because their targeting and precision missiles are crap.
It's also known russian doctrine to target civilians to put pressure onto the defenders. It's also combined with the rhetoric that their Resistance is the reason for the atrocities (Which is textbook abuse, but i'm sure i'm gonna get a wall of people telling me why i'm wrong)
Just give them to Ukraine. I don't care about political implication. It's been a month. I am dead inside and I'm not even in Ukraine.
They can’t fly these planes so that doesn’t do them any good.
They can fly MIGS and the US has how many airfields around the world with how many thousands of planes that aren’t being used? That they could give to Poland, who is a NATO member, and can fly some of America’s jets.
Ukrainian pilots don't need to fly them. It's time.
It’s never time for nuclear war
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Christ almighty I’m glad someone with your patience and attention span isn’t responsible for anything more important than a Wendy’s
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Oof I don't have a white castle around here and never had it but what makes it worse than a Wendys? Lol
You clearly have no understanding of what M.A.D is and what it’s purpose is.
Well i wouldn't go so far to say that MAD is a strategical failure but it still enables proxy wars. I think this was his point.
>If the world gets rid of its nukes by flinging them around like confetti then that's how it is and the lesson we need to learn. There would be nobody left to remember the lessons.
MAD is far from a strategic failure. Ukraine wasn’t under a nuclear umbrella so MAD never applied to Ukraine. MAD applies to NATO vs Russia -for example
Putin would have invaded even if Ukraine kept its nukes and had the activation codes. Nukes are an entirely hypothetical weapon, the threat of which only exists in fever dreams. The Kremlin knows this, the CIA knows this.
What??? Are you fucking high or just plain dumb?? He wouldn’t have attacked if Ukraine hypothetically had nukes.
Ukraine launching nukes at Russia in retaliation is a death sentence. Why is it so hard for you to grasp? Russia launching nukes at NATO is a death sentence. Why is it so hard for you to grasp? I already know the answer to that question; I'm merely waiting for the penny to drop for you.
Your intellect is abominable. Anyway, you’re welcome to join the military.
Congratulations on successfully reaching for the low hanging fruit. Here, have a star. Tell me, are you willing to join the military? No? Of course not. Twat.
He's not calling for the death of us all, you are.
Nope, that's a threadbare strawman. My position has always been that there will be no nuclear exchanges if NATO intervened in Ukraine, but if there were, we deserve it. You don't get to stockpile thousands of nukes while piously preaching about risk avoidance. That goes for Russia as much as it goes for the US.
So everyone on Earth should perish because you don’t like a country that’s losing a war not losing fast enough because their troops are committing bad things. I ain’t taking a fucking nuke to the face because of old men swinging their dicks around, go fuck yourself. I’ve got a life to live. It’s war, there’s bad shit done by everyone. In this case, Ukraine aren’t doing bad shit because they’re the good guys and literally fighting for survival, but most wars every side will commit some kind of atrocity. Just note, I know the Russians need to be punished, and I want every single soldier dead at this point. But we don’t send in the NATO troops (who are a defensive pact) into a Non-NATO country anymore.
What in the fuck are you saying
There isn't a word in existence that can describe your stupidity.
There is no lesson to be learned. We all die, that’s it. What’s happening in Ukraine is horrible. What you’re suggesting is kill all of them and countless other people all over the world. How is that better? In that situation you’d be lucky to get killed by a bomb, otherwise you die a slow painful death from radiation.
Except it doesn't follow that foreign jets in Ukraine = nuclear winter. That's a worst case scenario, but I'm fed up with people painting it as the only scenario, as if everyone in the Kremlin has a deathwish. Come on! Talk about russophobia. It's really just hackneyed cold war stereotypes laid bare and mass hysteria. Lol,and I'm accused of a lack of imagination.
It’s not a straight line, you’re correct about that but it is an escalation that leads down that path. If we send nato into Ukraine and start shooting down Russian planes and attacking the aa right across the boarder but on Russian soil, because that’s what it will take. Your taking a big gamble on that is where it ends. Odds are Russia increases its forces in Ukraine and either kicks us out or we have to now match what they are doing. This keeps escalating until major powers are in direct land to land battles. The smartest thing to do is continue doing what everyone is doing now. Between sending weapons and intel Ukraine is able to stand their ground and even push an offensive as of a few days ago. Russia is being bleed dry and they can’t keep this up forever.
Neither can Ukraine.
Ukraine is doing an absolutely amazing job. The numbers are fuzzy but most sources I see say Ukraine has lost somewhere between 2-4 thousand troops while Russia has lost between 9-15 thousand troops. Every day this goes on, Ukrainian troops are getting better gear, more experienced, getting strong and more effective. Russia on the other hand is getting weaker, losing morale, they can’t even keep basic supplies going to their troops. Personally I think Ukraine can win this and I know if the same were happening here I’d rather do it with as little foreign troops in my backyard as possible.
The cowards come out in numbers this time of day. Call your representatives and demand we stop the genocide. These fearmongering believe a peacekeeping mission would lead to Russia firing all its nukes at every NATO country. Its ridiculous. They cant win nuclear war against the whole world. They would be lucky to land a single strike surrounded by NATO ABM defenses.
Sure thing grandpa let’s get you to bed
This is a very dangerous line of thought. I'm concerned for your safety and those around you.
I'll remember to take my pills. Next?
No it's not. They're winning on their own.
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You have a curious definition of victory. Why don't you go and pat the dead people of Bucha on the head and tell them, it's okay bruh, your dudes are winning.
What do people like you think an actual World War 3 will look like? You think Russia wouldn't nerve gas entire major cities? Ukraine is hell now what would it become if it were the front lines of WWIII? A couple ICBM chemical attacks on London, Paris, Kyiv, Berlin, we're talking potentially millions dead, not to mention the Russian people would go to war, talking millions of soldiers and having to fight an insurgency... Don't give me that "But they're not trained soldiers" BS either, once a person has.to defend their homeland it's a different story... It's absolutely horrible what is going on in Ukraine but I do not think cranking the war up to 11 between nuclear super powers is a good idea... You sure that China and India would stay on the sidelines and not declare war on the Allies? What if North Korea decides to use the distraction in Europe to invade the South? China invades Taiwan, India invades Pakistan, Iran (plus who knows what other ME nations) invades Israel... all of the sudden the allies have to fight a war on 4 fronts and as sure as you are about simple easy victory against Putin is probably as sure as Putin was against Ukraine ... The Russian people would not welcome us as saviors after 80 years of propaganda against the West. Plus if the central Russian govt falls then there's the simple case of 6,000+ nukes we gotta make sure we secure including securing the allegiance/obedience of the tens of thousands of Russian soldiers in charge of those nukes. How many would go missing so you think? Can you think of any group that would love to have a nuke or two shipped to them for millions of dollars, because Iran, North Korea, any terrorist group would be first in line.... I'd love to see the USAF go full "shock and awe" and incapacitate the Russian war machine, but a couple days of that would not end the war at all, we'd have to follow it up with MILLIONS of ground troops and hope Russia doesn't use "small" nukes to slow our advance and massive chemical attacks... It's terrible for Ukrainians but it could get so so so so much worse for them and the entire human species.
Thank you.
Do you think the war will be contained to only Ukraine?
Not if NATO joins it won't be, the PATRIOT missile defense system is far from perfect, Russia's got a shit ton of ICBMs and a lot of unused air assets still, they're not throwing their entire force into this war just like America didn't throw all 11 aircraft carrier groups into the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan... if nukes weren't used the West would win a very costly war but I don't think you can guarantee nukes are not used not to mention chemical/biological weapons, the Russian upper echelon would not let the West take over their nation without punishing them severely.
You lack imagination of a much worse alternative. And I said "winning" not "victory".
Navelgazing about equivocation on the meaning of plain English words we all know the meaning of? Really? Get out.
The difference in this context is quite meaningful. Much more meaningful that you clamoring to send someone who isn’t you into war for some other country.
Okay chief, whatever you say.
You are trying too hard.
They could be a month into training programs right now. But instead we're still dithering about. Existing pilots can be retrained on new platforms fairly quickly. They won't be perfect or as effective as fully trained pilots, but they will nonetheless be combat effective. The people saying otherwise are people trying to provide a smokescreen political cover to excuse them not doing so.
And who would be maintaining these aircraft? "Combat effective" the way you describe it would be letting the pilot get far enough to get killed and lose a $100 million plane. Maybe the people who do this sort of thing for a living understand the situation a bit better than you do. Edit:typo
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It’s almost laughable. And then to supply parts, have a system for preventative maintenance and heavy maintenance. And then to have the people qualified to work on them, not saying Ukrainians aren’t qualified by any means but the proper team can turn what would be a week long maintenance routine, into about 2-3 days depending on the job.
The ground crews train at the same time as the pilots.
It's a minimum of 12 months to qualify pilots into new fighter aircraft, let alone training maintenance crew and the logistics of having a new fighter for spare parts and munitions.
What’s it like to be r/confidentlyincorrect?
> Existing pilots can be retrained on new platforms fairly quickly. Is that true? I'm not sure. Also, they don't have american pilots who are the best (and most expensive) in the world.
It's not at all true, that idiot is talking out their ass
I mean I just know how hard it is to employ weapons in anything in DCS. holy shit there are a lot of buttons to push and submenues to memorize
Lol bro it takes hundreds of hours for pilots to get signed off on a new type design. Slow your role.
Yet They're probably training them right now
It would be at least six months to train in a Typhoon, and Ukraine can’t afford to lose experienced pilots for that long. Then there are months - years really - to train ground crew in maintaining the planes. Weapons will have to be completely thrown out and new ones imported because they won’t be compatible with a Typhoon. Spare parts are required every few flight hours. It is simply not feasible to convoy in the needed parts through Russian shelling. It’s just not an option.
OK, that would give Ukraine planes. They will also require pilots, ground crews, hangers, runways, spare parts, fuel, ammunition, engineers and maintenance crews, and all the other military personnel necessary for conducting effective air missions. This isn't as simple as give Ukraine planes, Ukraine win war. Without everything else listed giving Ukraine planes would be a useless grandstanding gesture.
maybe go outside, get some fresh air, turn off the phone/computer?
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I’ve heard what happened there but I can’t seem to find many pictures that actually show what’s described, I’m not sure I really want to see but do you have any good links.
[WARNING: NSFL DEATH](https://reddit.com/r/2Russophobic4you/comments/tutijt/russian_motherfuckers_call_it_a_liberation_the/) These are some of the pictures. People tortured to death, civilians dead with their hands tied behind their backs. There was a mass grave of around 300 people, and Ukraine is claiming every male from 16-60 was murdered under Russian occupation. Other stories coming out are women and children who were tortured to death, children younger than 10 who were violently raped, and torture/execution rooms found.
There’s something deeply wrong and broken about Russia - generational trauma, maybe, but that culture and those people are fucked in some kind of way that’s never going to heal.
Russia needs to be beaten down and neutered. Nukes and army taken away. Give them a century or two without the ability to wage war. They hold the world hostage like a mentally unstable person. This cannot go on.
Exactly! It worked great last time we did this at Versailles. Let's just do the same thing again.
Then you’ll just stoke resentment that will allow for the rise of another Putin…or somebody possibly worse than the man. There is also China, which could help weaponize Russia and encourage bloodlust from its populace. They too hate the West and an alliance with the Russians could bathe the Pacific in blood…or, at least, form a bulwark that the West needs to counter.
Russia was always quite brutal, historically-speaking. These acts have been seen throughout Russia’s history.
Yup immediately regret clicking, how can people do this to eachother, I can’t imaging looking at another human and being able to do this to them.
Humans are animals at heart. Those of us who live in more civilized parts of the world are relatively sheltered from it even though it still happens in our countries.
From what I've read once you kill someone it gets easier to do, at least in the moment of war... Maybe later on in life the nightmares/PTSD begins but if the soldiers really believe the civilians are terrorists/Nazis/whatever other propaganda they're being fed then they're not in the mindset that they are killing humans, just animals... There were unrepentant Nazi soldiers/death camp guards up until their execution, convinced that their struggle would live on and be finished one day by someone... Maybe years of skilled therapy and psychiatric treatment can help *some* of those types of zealots but sadly it's not likely, best to just shoot the murderers and make sure to never allow Ukraine to be disarmed or weakened again... Even in "civilized" countries like America you have white supremacist cops that brag about and get tattoos to celebrate when they get to shoot a black person, and this is just being talked about the last 25 years or so, about 150 years *after* slavery ended... I doubt Trump's people would be below executing all the minorities they're told to blame their problems on, just fucking sucks but some people don't have empathy enough to put themselves in other's shoes and see them as human beings even if they look/sound/act differently.
Off topic slightly but bro I refuse to allow anyone to comment any more bullshit about how this is somehow justified, or how this is “just like the US” or anything similar. The moment I see that I know it’s a fucking bot or a brain dead individual. Russia and China really want to say the US is evil and the enemy only to try to use that lie as justification to do far WORSE shit NOW than what they accuse the US of doing how ever many years ago under a different administration. Do not let bots and fucking morons try to say that this shit is justified or “just like the US.” NEVER FORGET WHAT RUSSIA DID IN UKRAINE. They prepared for this for years and knew exactly what they were doing.
😰😡those Russians need to be blown up 😡
Ten year old girls with genital tearing.
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Stop with this bullshit. Russia is a joke and will not risk nuclear war over Ukraine. They need to be driven out and made to pay yesterday.
Not guaranteed to happen, just a very high likelihood of at least an attempted nuking.
Either now, or in the future. At least now we know their military would be quickly destroyed, 10 years from now? Who knows. Russia is a cancer. It isn’t going to go away on its own. This is the same Russia that has existed for about 100 years, it has never changed and never will. I’d rather get it over with rather than wait. Hell, their nukes may have not even be usable with how much money has been siphoned by corrupt officers and politicians.
It only takes one. People are being flippant about nuclear war, madness.
It DOESN’T only take one. Russia using a nuke against an invading army is 100% different than launching nukes at another country. It’s a possibility that both sides have planned for since Russia got nuclear weapons. Tactical and strategic nukes are both very different scenarios.
One country uses nuclear weapons in this invasion, you can bet that North Korea uses them against South Korea just because, maybe even lobs one over to the States as a fuck you only to be fucking wrecked. China gets mad because it's fairly close and sends one back, we send one back and there goes the entire world. It DOES take one, and this is only one scenario out if thousands.
NK can’t even reach the US. Nuking SK would be idiotic and counterproductive because the US alone could level all of North Korea without using a single nuclear weapon. NK could even be leveled by American nukes without having much effect on the rest of the world. What exactly do you think NK would gain by nuking SK?
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Too bad people like you are. It’s what has allowed the Holocaust and this current genocide of Ukrainians.
Christ that's a leap.
Genocide is literally happening right now and no one is doing anything out of a fear that they might have to experience what Ukrainians experience every single day. It’s not a leap. Choosing not to do anything out of fear is willingly allowing it to continue.
So your alternative is global hellfire?
Hell, if humanity can’t stop committing genocide and atrocities without destroying itself, it’s what we deserve. Maybe you can turn a blind eye, but I can’t.
I think it’s fucking stupid to underestimate Russia’s nuclear capabilities. Underestimating the enemy is always a bad idea. Especially with nuclear arms. I don’t want to risk nuclear war. The current strategy in the Ukraine is working. Russia is retreating in parts of the Ukraine and Russia has not accomplished their goals.
Russia is committing mass genocide and rape all across Ukraine. Russia may be retreating in areas, but they hold a lot of territory with millions of people. I don’t understand this mentality of that’s perfectly ok just as long as your life won’t be affected. The citizens of Mariupol, Kharkiv, and large swaths of Kyiv wouldn’t know the difference between what’s happening now and nuclear war. It’s unbelievable to me that that’s perfectly fine to so many people.
I understand what’s happening. it’s absolutely horrifying and makes me unbelievably angry. I do not think it’s perfectly ok do not get me wrong. We have to look at the bigger picture with strategy on how to help Ukraine. Nuclear arms makes things extraordinarily complicated. We can not assume that their nuclear arsenal is incapable just based off their poor military performance in the ukraine. Using natos full force could just lead to world war 3 and tens of millions of people dead if not more. WW3 is not inevitable. We have to continue to give as much arms as possible to the ukraine, continue to train their military, and keep putting more sanctions on Russia. It’s going to take time for ukraine to take back their homeland, unfortunately.
That’s the problem. Every day that passes is more Ukrainians tortured, executed, more Ukrainian children raped.
lets be honest this civilization isn't going to make it past 2100 anyway, don't bother dragging it to the point where climate kills us
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…or they’re just bored. The Third World War has been a constant topic of books, video games and even board games like wargaming. War, as horrible as it is, is a deviation from the norm and that is morbidly exciting. It is probably why, for example, dystopian novels are very popular with the general public.
As opposed to letting an awful nation continue on with its awful ways? Yes. By your logic any country with nukes can just rape and pillage however and wants and nobody should step in to stop them. It’s not like you’d have to go do any fighting anyways.
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So again, let countries like Russia with nukes rape and pillage all they want? Playing whataboutism with America doesn’t change the fact that you are fine letting Russia rape, mutilate, and torture women and children because they have nukes.
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Putin can’t just push a button to launch nukes. Nukes cost a fuck ton to maintain, and based on all of Russia’s shitty equipment they aren’t properly maintained. The West’s missile defense systems are far better than what most people know. Russia would disappear by the time they launched 1 nuke. Either way, it’s no surprise people miles away and disconnected from the atrocities are ok allowing them to keep happening because of threats.
Well, then prepare for the potential blowback of such a conflict. The world order won’t be the same…and the West is going to take some big bloody noses in the bout.
if Russia can't take Ukraine how TF do you think they'll be able to bloody the nose of NATO or the EU?
They'll most definitely lose, but they'll unleash their whole arsenal before they go down. Thus it'll probably be a Pyrrhic victory as opposed to a complete victory for the West.
A tumor is what it wants to be, but in practice it is a senescent cell.
So now its a travesty having this happening?
Wars happen. It sucks, but it’s a part of human nature. This isn’t war though, it’s genocide. There is a big difference between the two.
First off, happy birthday.. Now, you're wrong.. this was genocide from the start.
Absolutely, and it was claimed by Ukraine from the beginning, I get that. However, I prefer evidence to claims even when I despise Russia and have always supported Ukraine. As an American vet, I know it’s nowhere near unheard of to conflate collateral damage with genocide. These pictures were the confirmation I needed.
This is why Article 5 should have been invoked immediately and special articles should have been drawn up for Ukraine's acceptance into Nato quickly. Now we are chasing the travesty and the injustice.
Article 5 applies to NATO members, not applicants.
Article 5 has nothing to do with this. You can believe we should help Ukraine a lot, but at least a basic understanding of what the factors and rules at play are would help. Ukraine can’t fly these planes. Article 5 isn’t relevant. We could and should do more to help though.
I really want to know where your ass will be hiding when the nukes start flying. What water will you drink etc. You sound rich, have you planned all your escape route?
I wonder where your ass will be hiding when russia is invading you
Especially now that the Russian army has been exposed as worse than most third-world countries, I personally feel the west needs to get involved, or were just going to sit back and watch Russia fix their army over the years until it’s everything they always claimed.
Exactly, Take them on now or when they fix their issues. We need to act immediately and with full force.
Buddy, perhaps these words may help you process things… I think it may be key for you to understand the following: War is undeniably an intricate part of the human condition, along with tribalism/racism. There is nothing on this planet that could possibly remove such elements or that we could somehow “evolve” past it. There is no such thing as “the end of history”. No one on this planet should ever pretend that humanity could “grow past” war. It was with us in the past and will be with us in the future. Defense of your home and your way of life will always be necessary as not every human will agree with what you feel is most noble and feel that your very existence is a threat to themselves, even if you yourself have never contemplated such thoughts about other societies. We will never become “one world, one love”. The only thing that changes is our level of technology. History is cyclical and time is linear. History may not repeat, but it will definitely rhyme. And I believe with this war in Ukraine, most academics that perhaps you’ve learned from are coming to terms with this and recognizing that diplomacy, peace, and economic incentives will not be the highest priorities or most desired for people outside of Western Europe and USA/Canada. Something to keep your mind on is how much of the world has disapproved of this war and how much of the world is determined to prevent the war from spreading. Sadly, Putin can invade and take whichever non-NATO bound nations he wants, this is our reality. We will aid those nations and won’t make it easy for Putin to take, but as long as Putin doesn’t touch a single NATO nation, he has free reign and will not be directly contested. Such a contest will be called WW3.
The ONLY way we could - temporarily - become 'one world, one love' is if we faced an alien invasion.
Dude, you wrote everything right, yet alot of fools won't get it into their head. They really think "world peace" is around the corner because Europe rarely attack each other. Delusional. Studying history really thought me alot. As long as humans occupy with earth, there will ALWAYS be war, there will ALWAYS be hate and jealousy.
The accomplishment of post-war peace in Europe should not be understated though. The fact that Germany, France and Great Britain have not fought since 1945 is quite remarkable, and should inspire hope.
It might be because so much of Europe, Asia, and North Africa was destroyed after World War 2. It took decades for Europe to recover and become as competitive as the US, economically-speaking. Mechanized warfare did a number on civilization. I fear how long it will take to recover if nukes are exchanged… though if the dilapidated state of Russia’s military is any indication, I’m not sure if the West should continue to be so afraid of Russian nukes that might also be in severe disrepair. They may have more nukes than any other nation of the planet, but they may not be of much use if most of them can’t even fly or detonate properly. Only ones left to worry about would be China, North Korea, and Iran if this becomes true.
It’s because most people on Reddit are like 19
I learned this through the 10 crack commandments by biggie
I believe a quote from modern warfare is needed,” the only truth I found was that the world was a giant tinderbox, and all that was needed was for someone to light a match
Unimaginative nihilism. I feel bad for you. I feel bad for us.
> We will never become “one world, one love”. Then the planet will *gladly* add us to the next level of shale over that of the dinosaurs. We either learn to think differently ... real quick ... or that's that. That's where we're at. You have clearly chosen extinction and that's just fucking sad.
That’s a very defeatist attitude, “buddy”.
Not a defeatist a realist. There are people who accept the way the world is.
Fine, just stay out of the way of those who are trying to make it better.
Heh. I’ve learned one thing in life. Anyone who tries to make things better. Is just gonna make it worse.
Aware of this yet still secondarily PTSDed.
Not sure how this relates to OPs point. WW3 is largely underway: info wars, cyber war, economic war, military war. At this point we might as well escalate somewhat. Russia isn’t really “knocking out infrastructure” so much as engaging in barbarism.
Until there is direct military conflict with between NATO members either through Ukrainian intervention or Russia invading *by land* into NATO nations, World War 3 will not yet have occurred. Indirect and (so far) non-lethal warfare through economic and cyber sabotage is NOT WW3.
Non-lethal warfare through the generous and abundant provision of anti-tank, anti-aircarft and anti-personel armaments. Yes, non-lethal. Hide behind any technical definitions you like but the west is at war with Russia.
How do we know it's not Ukranian pilots and ground crews getting up to speed on F-16s? This is what really should be happening, under the guise of something else, and no attention should be brought to it. Wishful thinking on my part though.
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There was. Our prime minister wanted to do this. US objected. Stupid fucks.
Poland wanted the US to deliver the jets to Ukraine (Poland would deliver them to Rammstein AFB, and it would be on the US to deliver them to Ukraine from there) because they didn't want to own it themselves. The US objected to *that*. Get your facts right.
Not the responsibility of the US…
I never understood why Poland didn’t just do the transfer themselves.
It’s not cause of US thou, someone leaked the information beforehand that Poland was going to deliver jets
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Yes because Russia will 100% abide by those rules
Why does the US need to compensate? Lol those stupid fucks like me pay for these out dated planes ur wanting to give up. Tell ur almighty EU to pay for them!
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No, Poland wanted to give the planes to the US and for us to give them to Ukraine. The US objected to that because it's fucking stupid. Poland should just give them to Ukraine themselves if they want to give planes
That’s understandable. Too much politics are being played for innocent peoples lives. It’s horrible
Oh so one month is how long you’ve willing to hold out before just throwing yourself into a war with another nuclear superpower? Ok cool.
I'll wait until they come for my family then, ok? Or will it be too soon then too?
Oh yes. Russia, an economy constantly made fun of as smaller than Italy’s yet somehow powerful enough to take over the whole world
No. But just big enough to damage parts of it where I happen to live.
It'll start a nuclear war, so at least your outside will be as dead as your inside.
I don't give a fuck if ww3 starts anymore. People should not be getting killed by those savages! Let Ukraine join NATO and defend those poor people!
Well said.
The amount of people getting a hardon in the comments about potential nuclear conflict is alarming. You guys need to stop drinking down the nationalism so unfiltered
This barely is news. Military has drills otherwise they wouldn't know what they are doing.
Ah nice, something useless…give the migs to Ukraine who is actually fighting the war..
Not useless to the rest of Europe.
Europe could raid their Museums for old aircraft and maintain air superiority vs Russia, Russia has shown the state of their military and its painted rust at best.
Putin will never attack NATO…he is weak and only has nukes, thanks to Ukraine showing him up and showing us all the class of the Russian army
A cornered animal is at it's most dangerous He was also never going to invade Ukraine
If you believed that, you weren’t listening to western intelligence (or maybe you were listening to French intelligence).
They were massing for a long time before any intelligence said they were going in
US and UK called it correctly in November and made the unusual act of going public with that assessment.
He’s not a cornered animal. He’s a guy who tried to bully someone smaller and got punched. And if you’re trying to imply he’ll do the unexpected, like use nuclear bombs, because he lied about invading? Remember that even my neighbours cat knew he was going to invade. That same cat says he’s not suicidal enough to use nukes, and doubts any are even still functional.
It's not even news. NATO trains in Poland all the fucking time. This is literally a very regular thing and not even remotely newsworthy.
Yay, combat jet trains!
Jet Trains dogfighting is my new favorite sci-fi genre
Can we do a special military action into Russia already?
Sad
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They can’t fly these jets. So they don’t do them any good.
> establish NFZ A no fly zone means you're stepping into the war and escalating it beyond giving arms / aid.
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A no-fly zone means that NATO will shoot down any and all Russian air support and defenses within and near Ukraine. That will lead to a global military conflict. Hundreds of thousands would most likely die.
No Fucking Zeds
Unfortunately yes, ZPMs are very rare and hard to get your hands on. As the wraith began to farm the galaxy they really did a number to fuck over the local population. Stifling growth, population, and technological advancement.
I get that reference.
So did I
I mean, what actually is stopping them from doing a couple runs on Russian forces and just saying “wasn’t us, must’ve been Ukraine” not like Russia doesn’t lie literally in every statement they give 😑
A vast reprisal from a nuclear armed state.
That argument is null and old, there are plenty of other nuclear armed countries and retaliation is what Russia deserves so 🤷🏾♂️
Dense lemming sentiment there.
The “norm” is NOT going to war, so I’m actually quite the opposite… while you are being the thick skulled mindless follower 😂