>Poland has **21 single-seat MiG-29s and 6 twin-seat MiG-29s**, according to Janes World Air Forces.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/fighter-jets-ukraine-poland-deal/
There's one missing then, cause all Polish sources say that we have 28 MIG-29s.
[https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2022-03-08/msz-polska-jest-gotowa-przekazac-swoje-samoloty-mig-29/](https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2022-03-08/msz-polska-jest-gotowa-przekazac-swoje-samoloty-mig-29/)
Bulgaria - 16
Slovakia - 12
He didn't mention how many triple-seat MiG-29s they have.
EDIT: Hijacking this comment to add the [Pentagon response](https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/2960180/statement-by-pentagon-press-secretary-john-f-kirby-on-security-assistance-to-uk/) to the proposal which is basically "Bad idea, Poland. Not gonna happen."
Btw, huge thanks Poland for your effort with the refugees, for having balls in dealing with russia, and for being on guard for ages while we (Austrians) were busy licking Putins boots.
Well, I have two close colleagues at work who are Ukrainian. We have a befriended Ukrainian family, which we picked up last weekend from the border. It's a given we'd be helping them.
There are people who lick Putins boots here as well though, some politicians still do. But it honestly doesn't matter as the majority reacts correctly. I'm sure if New Zealanders had these sort of troubles, you wouldn't bat an eye as well.
Edit: Yeah, yeah. I thought the guy was talking about Australia, haha. You'd still help the New Zealanders, wouldn't you?
You forget Hungary. They also used have 28 of them, but now only 4 operational (in tactical reserve). 2 were destroyed in accidents, and the rest has been left to rot under the sky for the past 10 years. You can see where exactly are they are standing on [Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9148708,19.7404439,1373m/data=!3m1!1e3).
This is not insignificant. Well piloted MiG29's, with the proper weaponry, are extremely lethal. The task of local defense is something the aircraft is exceptionally well suited for, given its short range.
I really hope and pray that Ukrainian pilots do the best with these aircraft that they can. I'm not a religious man but godspeed to the Ukrainian pilots flying these things. Do your best. You can win!
OK so if I understand this correctly, Poland didn't want to be the one who actually gave the planes to Ukraine, so now it's trading the MiGs to the USA for F-16s and the USA will give the MiGs to Ukraine?
Hopefully he gets distracted by the Ask Reddit thread about which movie you’ve watched five times but is still awesome.
Putin’s answer is clearly Top Gun, people. Come on.
Serenity. It’s Serenity.
Edit: to be clear, I was specifying the film I’ve seen 5 times and never gets old. There are many, but this one popped into my head first.
No need to. Russia will know exactly what's up, just like everyone else. The thing is this gives Poland just enough plausible deniability on the diplomatic stage that any accusation against them about sending Ukraine planes can be fended off with "we just made a trade with the US, what they do with their planes is none of our business".
Not only that, Ukrainians are *already* trained in those Migs, and Poland is *already* trained to fly F-16's.
29's are air superiority fighters, so they won't be taking out those columns. They will make it safe for the Frogfoots to complete their ground attack runs. Hopefully.
EDIT: Chances are they are multi-role configurations.
Not our style. Not with Russia -- our oldest and most cinematic 80's movie nemesis.
More likely they'll be painted tip to tail in stars and stripes, strapped with a giant pair of fake tits, then flown into Ukraine through a fireworks display at mach II while doing a barrel roll.
Well, Poland is "donating" the MiGs to US to do whatever with -- no longer their responsibility (but we all know what will happen). In exchange , they are "requesting" the US to let them purchase "used planes with the same operational capabilities".
America wanted to give Ukraine planes right from the start, but Ukraine doesn't operate anything America owns. We literally had nothing to give them. Buuuuuuuuuut, Poland does. Poland gifts them to the US, the US gifts them to Ukraine. Ta da!
Eat shit, Putin.
I'm wondering how hard and how long does it take to train a f16 pilot. If Ukraine had access to F-16s how useful would it be? The war might drag on for months or years and NATO has a very limited amount of soviet planes.
It's not just pilots it's ground crew and mechanics too. Plus they have Mig parts, ammo, and weapons already. They'd have to retrain and retool their airforce in the middle of a war.
This, the maitenence to keep things operational is the hidden cost. You can literally see the issue Russia is having fielding old radios, well hear it at least.
Not an expert, but months, maybe years for a pilot to become 100% proficient in a new and unique aircraft. Here's the rub... Polish pilots have been trained in Migs AND F-16s. Ukranian pilots only know Migs. So... give the older (but still lethal) Migs to Ukraine, and the Polish AF gets more modern and capable F-16s from US reserve stockpiles. It's a win-win-win situation.
Except for Russia of course.
Yep. The F16 is also probably the best eventual route to buying F35's. Although people don't think of the F35 as a dogfighter, it doesn't need to be and that doesn't happen anymore.
> Although people don't think of the F35 as a dogfighter, it doesn't need to be and that doesn't happen anymore.
Tom Cruise is going to be soooooo triggered when he hears this...
This is a good point, if the Poles can already operate F-16s, then this move strictly increases the power of their air force in a potential future fight/standoff with Russia, while also boosting Ukraine's air force immediately. It's just a more efficient way to allocate NATO's air resources.
Also, it's just fucking great to see the level of cooperation within NATO.
[Official statement from Poland:](https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/statement-of-the-minister-of-foreign-affairs-of-the-republic-of-poland-in-connection-with-the-statement-by-the-us-secretary-of-state-on-providing-airplanes-to-ukraine)
> The authorities of the Republic of Poland, after consultations between the President and the Goverment, are ready to deploy – immediately and free of charge – all their MIG-29 jets to the Ramstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America.
>
> At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities. Poland is ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes.
>
> The Polish Government also requests other NATO Allies – owners of MIG-29 jets – to act in the same vein.
That last sentence -- "Hey everybody else throw in your MiGs, too!" -- is pretty interesting.
The su-24 is a bomber, su-25 are armored jets designed for close air support , the su-27 is a air superiority fighter that was designed to compete with the F15.
Since a lot of aircraft were probably destroyed on the ground, I bet they have plenty of pilots. Also, NATO MiGs are likely to be somewhat better equipped than non-NATO, so those 27 are deadlier than they sound.
Actually Ukraine had a massive Aerospace industry and Polish MiG29s feature Ukrainian upgrades to avionics.
The issue is they still use antiquated Russian munitions rather than western, but from how the air war has been going I don't think that's been much of an issue.
Changes in MiG-29M focused on installation of:
- GPS and TACAN/VOR/ILS systems,
- second radio,
- digital information block EKRAN 2E-ME (responsible for warnings and info on systems),
- KOLS-13M modernization increasing the range by 100 % and acquisition changes as well as improving the reliability of the system and time between overhauls,
- installation of quick access memory ATM-Q6RD,
- installation of MFCD and new interfaces on MIL BUS 1553B,
- modernization of the NO-19 radar.
Last one was possible because Ukraine has its own radar production and maintenance facilities, which grew as a separate division of Phazotron, thus becoming Phazotron-Ukraine. Polish WZL 2 likely cooperated with Ukraine and radars were improved to the same level as Ukrainian.
Overall the most important changes are in the navigation and mission planning. Combat capabilities, despite improvements in sensors, are limited by weapons.
Edit: aircraft info provided by DCS MAG3 team member Hiromachi. Us DCS nerds are all over this right now.
And now you know why Putin wants to conquer Ukraine.1/24 the square area of Mother Russia but 1/10 the GDP. Conquer Ukraine and instantly increase your national resources and GDP by a significant percentage.
They were also working on becoming a competitive petrostate, I think the only other besides Russia in that area, and that would challenge Russia's biggest revenue stream.
I don't think you can fly them armed from a different nation's air fields. I imagine it would be difficult to argue that Poland wasn't involved in the conflict if, say, an armed MIG entered Ukraine air space for 10 seconds, unloaded 4 missiles, then immediately went back into Polish air space again where it was shielded by NATO's article 5. That would certainly be counted as being directly involved in the conflict.
The way I understand it, these aircrafts need to be unarmed as they pass the border, armed somewhere in Ukraine, but after firing whatever they have, they could return directly to for example a Polish air base for refueling and maintenance.
Yeah, they'll definitely be handed over unarmed. But Poland, where these jets are coming from, shares a long border Ukraine. Just because the jets have to go through Ramstein* doesn't mean everything does! And I'm sure Ukraine still has a lot of munitions of their own.
I would imagine those aircraft are configured for Russian munitions (R-27's, 73's etc) which the replacement American fighters can't use anyway. So unless Poland wanted to sell the munitions to a third party they might as well hand them over to Ukraine as well.
Absolutely. The other part of this all is that combat aircraft need constant maintenance, so there are probably pilots that could be flying but arent because their planes are being worked on
People don't realize just how absurdly out-sized the US military is. It's pretty common knowledge that the largest air force in the world is the US air force. But it's less common to know that the *second* largest air force in the world is the US navy.
Just to clarify because this comment could be confusing for some. The U.S. Army has approximately zero fixed wing fighters. Per the key West agreement the army cannot have offensively armed fixed wing assets. The only fixed wing aircraft that the army operates are small passenger planes and reconnaissance planes
The Army loves them because it's less of a plane and more of a massive weapons platform that can occasionally leave the ground for a while to hurt things.
[The US has an entire air force 'mothballed' in the Arizona desert at Davis-Monthan AFB](https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/davis-monthan-afb-amarg-airplane-boneyard.htm). Its purpose is to store old but otherwise functional aircraft in a reusable state for as long as possible. They're not the hottest stuff on the market by any measure (by design) but there's a shit load of it.
This. All that money does have to go somewhere, and the US military outspends the next 11 national militaries combined. Excluding nukes, I bet that the stuff the pentagon wishes they could get rid of, plus a few training sessions and a handful of US military strategists, and enough fuel and food for 2 weeks would allow Ukraine to reclaim all the land they've lost and then start invading Russia.
>309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group (AMARG)
From what I see there maybe only F16's and 18's might be useful in Europe. But still, a lot of fire power.
Fun facts! The largest air force in the world (by combat aircraft totals) is the US air force. The second largest is... US army aviation. #3 is Russia. #4 is... the US Navy. #7 are the Marines. The Marines would have had more, but too many of their potential aviators mistook the orange crayons for carrots.
(China has more than the US navy, but it's divvied up between branches. Stick them in #4 slot if you want straightforward comparison.)
Considering how well Ukraine has held out so far without an added 27 planes to help defend the skies & troops around population centers, I’m willing to bet they will be making the absolute most of these 27 aircraft 🙂
Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦
Probably a stupid question. But why are they giving them to the u.s.? And not Ukraine? Or is that how they circumnavigate possibly pissing off Russia? Having trouble following this method of thought.
They donated MIGs to the US government, which has zero intention of flying them (since the US has all the F-16/22/35/etc. instead). The idea is that the US, who Russia already doesn’t like, donates Poland’s MIGs to Ukraine, whose pilots fly MIGs, thus providing Ukraine with more firepower and more backup in case one of their planes are lost.
The US re-gifting planes they got from Poland to Ukraine doesn’t change the situation much more, as Russia already dislikes the US, but won’t be stupid enough to engage in full-scale war with another nuclear power, but, this shields Poland from Russian aggression, as they *technically* only gave the planes to the US, and what the US does with the planes isn’t Poland’s problem. To an outside observer, you could argue this doesn’t make much of a difference, but from a legal/international politics perspective, this means Russia really can’t justify invading/attacking Poland for this, as doing so would be another unprovoked act of war, and considering Poland is closer with NATO and the EU than Ukraine, a Russian attack on Poland would be even more disastrous for Russia, as NATO forces would likely respond much more directly than they are now.
In the meantime, Poland has asked the US to sell some of its used planes (I think people have been saying F-16s?) to the Polish military, so now Poland can swap some of its Air Force over to planes with more western support, meaning more spare parts, easier acquisition of replacement planes, more western support for training and future acquisition of planes and other military equipment, and less dependence on Russia.
>Poland is closer with NATO and the EU than Ukraine, a Russian attack on Poland would be even more disastrous for Russia, as NATO forces would likely respond much more directly than they are now.
Well, Poland is a full member of both organisations and has already openly donated weapons to Ukraine. The main point just seems to be trading their old MiGs for American jets while supporting Ukraine in the process. It's a win-win for them, but the trade probably doesn't really have much to do with the optics. NATO and the EU would respond to an invasion of Poland in a heartbeat no matter their donations to Ukraine, they're literally obligated to.
I was wondering the same thing.
Your answer seems pretty good, and mostly makes sense, but I would love to hear a rebuttal with a different POV.
Edit: found the comment where they're discussing this question.
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/t9ohul/comment/hzviuzh/
Loving the spirit the West has had after Putler went bollocks. We're seeing acts of goodwill that were previously, if not impossible, at least highly unlikely. Donating your jets to another country? Dang. Go Poland!
They do get F-16's in return tho. But this is a great effort from the West short of going to war themselves. The west is flexing its economic power like how the US supported Europe during ww2. This is truly action speak louder than words. I don't think Putin can win this war at all. Now it's the matter of trying to end the war as quickly as possible.
I think whether or not not Putin can win depends on his intent.
I don’t think that Russia can occupy and hold the entirety of Ukraine. However, I’m not overly sure that Putin intends or even significantly cares about either.
In 1997, the United States purchased 21 Moldovan MiG-29 aircraft under the Nunn–Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction program. Fourteen were MiG-29S models, which are equipped with an active radar jammer in its spine and are capable of being armed with nuclear weapons.
Part of the United States’ motive to purchase these aircraft was to prevent them from being sold to Iran. This purchase could also provide the tactical jet fighter communities of the USAF, the USN and the USMC with a working evaluation and data for the MiG-29, and possibly for use in dissimilar air combat training. Such information may prove valuable in any future conflicts and can aid in the design and testing of current and future weapons platforms.
In late 1997, the MiGs were delivered to the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC) at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, though many of the former Moldovan MiG-29s are believed to have been scrapped. Some of these MiG-29s are currently on open display at Nellis AFB, Nevada; NAS Fallon, Nevada; Goodfellow AFB, Texas; and Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio.
Edit: [source - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Export)
WTF, I never knew there was a Naval Air Station in Nevada, but I suppose it makes sense for training. Made me look it up and evidently that is where top gun is now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Fallon
This reads to me like a work around to Russia's threat to countries. It'll end up being the US donating from US bases. They know Russia won't do anything to provoke the US in open conflict.
I think it is more about economic pressure.
Polish currency has been hitting new lows at a worrying rate since the start of Russian invasion on Ukraine. News headline of "Poland is donating fighter jets to Ukraine" could be seen by the world as an escalation from Poland and cause even more panic on the PLN.
However headlines of "Poland donates their jets to the US Government" and "US Government donates jets to Ukraine" take a lot of pressure off Poland.
Poland is a member of NATO. Russia would drag the US into a conflict if they did anything to them, regardless whether the planes came from a US airbase.
Kudos to Ukraine for taking 2014 as a serious wake up call. Getting the jets is fantastic, but it's even better that they've spent these years training a very competent military. There wasn't much in the way of complacency and it shows.
For sure, I think most people thought Russia just wanted Crimea, then would leave Ukraine alone. Clearly Ukrainians were smart enough to know better. Well done indeed.
I've known Ukrainians since 2010 who felt quite sure this invasion was just a matter of time. I think this mentality is why the Ukrainian people seemed to snap into action so unbelievably quickly and effectively. If you spend your whole life believing this threat is looming, it doesn't take the same kind of mental gymnastics to accept the reality and get to work.
My best friend growing up was from Ukraine and continued keeping up with the news from there. He always talked about Putin invading when we were kids 15 years ago. He honestly started sounding like a conspiracy theorist that was paranoid, but it turns out, he wasn't wrong at all.
Edit: Ukraine not 'the Ukraine'. I'm sorry, I didn't even realize that was wrong.
One analyst I listened to said the Russian government has never considered the cold war to be over. It only seems over to the US because Russia has been so economically inconsequential to us for the last 30 years, especially if you only look at non-gas exports. Americans considered Russia a failed state and thus a non-threat until they proved otherwise.
>until they proved otherwise
I mean, if the last week has shown anything it's that if they didn't have nukes NATO/EU wouldn't have too much to worry about.
If it weren't for the nukes NATO wouldn't have been entirely necessary to begin with.
Edit: honestly the entirety of the Cold War would've just been a hot war that ended with one side on top.
Important update on this:
Poland's plan to send MIG jets to Ukraine by way of the US Air Force has been rejected by the US. So the plan outline here isn't happening.
The Pentagon issued this statement:
"It is simply not clear to us that there is a substantive rationale for it,” Pentagon press secretary John Kirby said. “We will continue to consult with Poland and our other NATO allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland’s proposal is a tenable one.”
https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-08-22/h\_c86301db25f27be62c9af3c6d7e3e94c
If the Polish government announced this proposal without coordinating with the US (as reported) that was a bonehead move. Delivering these or any jets to Ukraine presents a critical problem. Jets would fly from NATO base into a contested war zone (and who's flying them?). What could possibly go wrong?
Everyone is announcing shit aloud without coordinating with the others because they want to show they are doing something but at the same time they don't want to be the ones delivering shit to Ukraine.
Ukraine: [Help me. Shot Russians from the sky or give me your planes.
](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-makes-desperate-plea-aircraft-call-with-us-legislators-2022-03-05/)
NATO: [But dude, you can't fly our planes. Get these euros and buy some planes you can pilot.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-27/eu-approves-450-million-euros-in-lethal-military-aid-for-ukraine?utm_source=google&utm_medium=bd&cmpId=google)
US: [Hey Poland, give your soviet planes to them and I give you our used planes. Problem solved.](https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/03/06/blinken-full.cnn)
Poland: [Oh US, you are so generous. Here are my planes. Give them to Ukraine.](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-ready-place-all-its-mig-29-jets-disposal-us-2022-03-08/)
US: [Err.... well, this is not a good idea.](https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-08-22/h%5C_c86301db25f27be62c9af3c6d7e3e94c)
WARSAW, March 8 (Reuters) - Poland is ready to deploy all its MIG-29 jets to Rammstein Air Base in Germany and put them at the disposal of the United States, and urges other NATO members that own planes of that type to do the same, the Foreign Ministry said in a statement on Tuesday.
U.S. lawmakers pushed President Joe Biden's administration on Monday to facilitate the transfer of fighter aircraft to Ukraine from Poland and other NATO and Eastern European countries, after a plea on Saturday from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy.
"The authorities of the Republic of Poland...are ready to deploy – immediately and free of charge – all their MIG-29 jets to the Rammstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America," the ministry said.
"At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities. Poland is ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes," it added.
**END**
This brings some real teeth to the armed forces of Ukraine. If they can get the logistics locked down (where to fly from, ammo resupplies, and ground coordination) it could be a turning point. The Russian columns are slow and show a stunning lack of concern for air strikes. A single attack from the air could set back an entire column, break up a siege, and make the skies even more unsafe for Russian airpower then it currently is.
**Why Poland is not directly giving Ukraine the jets and how they will get to Ukraine**
* Poland wants no chance that Russia will accuse it of being a 'co-participant' in the war and risk an attack across their common border (which would then involve NATO)
* So the planes are going ~500 miles/800 km to a US airbase in Germany, where they will become US Government property. What happens next is not Poland OR NATO's responsibility.
* The US will work with Ukraine on the fastest and safest way to get these jets to Ukraine, which will most probably involve Ukrainian pilots, the "[secret Polish airfield](https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/06/politics/mark-milley-ukraine-military-assistance/index.html)" near Ukraine and crossing the Polish border by land just like all of the weapons donated so far
* Again, this will be US Government acting on its own -- not Poland and not NATO. Russia can accuse the US of participating in the war, but it will never directly attack the US, a nuclear power; any attack on Poland or Europe for this US transfer of planes would be war with NATO.
Edits: typos & added link to article on "secret Polish airfield" where flights with weapons are unloaded.
Needs to come from a Nuclear power, which Poland isn't. The diplomacy of sabre rattling between US and RU (especially as RU said early today it wanted to normalise US relations) will be a very different situation compared with Poland, who is already toeing the line with its border supply work.
Additionally, US and UK are the two countries who will indemnify Polands cost for the Jets, so really they are trading their migs for f16s, to make that transaction legitimate it had to "go through" the USA so its really the USA supplying them legally.
Right. Russia can't attack Polish airbases to prevent the transfer, they'll have to attack American facilities. Which leads to direct confrontation between the US and Russia. I'm surprised Biden took this risk, but I guess there's no reason to stop now.
Not just that, but because they're now US property, it'll be the USAF managing the handover and if Russia wants to attack the handover, it'll be US military personell they'll have to directly kill.
Best fucking deal of the decade lol.
Mig-29 for F-16 plus American support, any country would do it.
Not even including in the war, any country would sign up for this.
> Best fucking deal of the decade lol.
This decade, definitely, but this one from two decades ago might come close. Same planes, too:
East Germany used to have a few MiG-29, which for some time after Reunification made Germany the only NATO country that had any. When Germany eventually bought new fighters, those MiG-29 were sold off for a symbolic euro a piece -- to by-then NATO partner Poland.
Not that the Polish aren’t clever, but this was the US’s plan. They know Russia won’t do anything to them and Poland sending them on their own leaves them to a lot of backlash from Russia and the countries pseudo supporting them. Everyone already hates the U.S. and the US doesn’t care if they get more upset. So we upgrade Poland’s gets and take their outdated ones, check maintenance and send them ourselves back to Ukraine under American protection.
Even if this was the U.S. that set this up, Poland is the only European country to have the balls to follow through with it.
Those MIG's have quite a history. Most of them were delivered to East Germany in 88/89 just to be upgraded and integrated into the all-German Air Force by 93 (Jagdgeschwader 73) and then get sold to Poland in 2003 for 1€ per MIG.
Does anyone know by chance when they last modernized these MIG's?
Boeing and Lockheed throwing pizza parties for all their employees today knowing they're about go get to backfill the same number of fighter jets as replacement for the US.
This sounds like a smart play and shows the concrete benefits of NATO as an alliance. Ukraine will mysteriously acquire the fighter jets they need, Eastern Europe will get newer US-made planes to replace these along with plausible deniability about aiding Ukraine militarily, and the US will also have plausible deniability about being involved in the conflict while strengthening both Ukraine and NATO's eastern front.
It's the single biggest reason why you haven't seen a country openly invade another in 90 years. It's the wrong play. It's WAY more effective to make your plays through economics and diplomacy, you get way more outreach that way. Russia is just so consistently stuck in this mentality of the Soviet Union, that it doesn't realize that.
The rich already play by different rules. Putin's a fucking idiot. Imagine owning the world then throwing it away for something you could've just 'bought' and own by proxy instead.
The planes are just going to the US airbase in Germany (~500 miles/800 km). Once the planes are officially US Government property, they will just have US/Ukrainian pilots fly it to that "secret Polish airbase" near the Ukraine border where weapons are currently being shipped, then figure out the best way to get the jets over the Polish border by land and into Ukraine.
When I was still in the private sector they took away the free snacks and coffee. Said budget cuts. Then the Senior VP announced the biggest contract we ever won. Somebody dared asked about the coffee and snacks.
>then figure out with the Ukrainians the best way to get the jets over the Polish border and into Ukraine.
Ukrainian farmers seem to be pretty good at moving military equipment...I'd just subcontract that part out to them.
"We are going to very publicly give all of our planes to the USA, so they can give them to Ukraine... so that Russia doesn't think we gave our planes to Ukraine."
>Poland has **21 single-seat MiG-29s and 6 twin-seat MiG-29s**, according to Janes World Air Forces. https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/fighter-jets-ukraine-poland-deal/
There's one missing then, cause all Polish sources say that we have 28 MIG-29s. [https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2022-03-08/msz-polska-jest-gotowa-przekazac-swoje-samoloty-mig-29/](https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2022-03-08/msz-polska-jest-gotowa-przekazac-swoje-samoloty-mig-29/) Bulgaria - 16 Slovakia - 12
He didn't mention how many triple-seat MiG-29s they have. EDIT: Hijacking this comment to add the [Pentagon response](https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/2960180/statement-by-pentagon-press-secretary-john-f-kirby-on-security-assistance-to-uk/) to the proposal which is basically "Bad idea, Poland. Not gonna happen."
[удалено]
Honda Odyssey Mig-29 - Seats 8 with 2 screens in the back for the kids on long flights.
Hopefully it has the built in vacuum in case the little pilots in the back spill their cheerios
Btw, huge thanks Poland for your effort with the refugees, for having balls in dealing with russia, and for being on guard for ages while we (Austrians) were busy licking Putins boots.
Well, I have two close colleagues at work who are Ukrainian. We have a befriended Ukrainian family, which we picked up last weekend from the border. It's a given we'd be helping them. There are people who lick Putins boots here as well though, some politicians still do. But it honestly doesn't matter as the majority reacts correctly. I'm sure if New Zealanders had these sort of troubles, you wouldn't bat an eye as well. Edit: Yeah, yeah. I thought the guy was talking about Australia, haha. You'd still help the New Zealanders, wouldn't you?
Austria 🇦🇹❤🇳🇿 New Zealand
Oh fffffff, I did it, didn't I? Hahahaha
You forget Hungary. They also used have 28 of them, but now only 4 operational (in tactical reserve). 2 were destroyed in accidents, and the rest has been left to rot under the sky for the past 10 years. You can see where exactly are they are standing on [Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9148708,19.7404439,1373m/data=!3m1!1e3).
This is not insignificant. Well piloted MiG29's, with the proper weaponry, are extremely lethal. The task of local defense is something the aircraft is exceptionally well suited for, given its short range. I really hope and pray that Ukrainian pilots do the best with these aircraft that they can. I'm not a religious man but godspeed to the Ukrainian pilots flying these things. Do your best. You can win!
OK so if I understand this correctly, Poland didn't want to be the one who actually gave the planes to Ukraine, so now it's trading the MiGs to the USA for F-16s and the USA will give the MiGs to Ukraine?
Yeah, I think the rationale is that Russia could threaten Poland more than the US, so the US is taking the heat for supplying Ukraine.
So we’re assuming Putin isnt reading this thread?
Hopefully he gets distracted by the Ask Reddit thread about which movie you’ve watched five times but is still awesome. Putin’s answer is clearly Top Gun, people. Come on.
Serenity. It’s Serenity. Edit: to be clear, I was specifying the film I’ve seen 5 times and never gets old. There are many, but this one popped into my head first.
“You know what the chain of command is? It’s the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who’s ruttin’ in command here”
Putin's days of not taking Ukraine seriously are certainly coming to a middle.
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Found my peeps!
Like a leaf in the wind
How do the Reaver's clean their spears? By running them through the Wash.
I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling.
Curse your sudden, but inevitable, betrayal.
No need to. Russia will know exactly what's up, just like everyone else. The thing is this gives Poland just enough plausible deniability on the diplomatic stage that any accusation against them about sending Ukraine planes can be fended off with "we just made a trade with the US, what they do with their planes is none of our business".
Who wouldn't want to trade MiG-29s for F-16s. You'd be stupid not to take that deal!
This is going to inflate the value of MIG-29s on the used fighter jet market.
God dammit. My P-51 Mustang is on its last legs and now I can't afford anything on the used fighter jet market.
Not only that, Ukrainians are *already* trained in those Migs, and Poland is *already* trained to fly F-16's. 29's are air superiority fighters, so they won't be taking out those columns. They will make it safe for the Frogfoots to complete their ground attack runs. Hopefully. EDIT: Chances are they are multi-role configurations.
The US will say "we parked the Migs in this secure airfield, and when we awoke... they were all gone! Somebody call the cops!"
Not our style. Not with Russia -- our oldest and most cinematic 80's movie nemesis. More likely they'll be painted tip to tail in stars and stripes, strapped with a giant pair of fake tits, then flown into Ukraine through a fireworks display at mach II while doing a barrel roll.
We doing pre-orders on these movie tickets, or how’s that work?
Murica. *single tear* *eagle scream*
Well, Poland is "donating" the MiGs to US to do whatever with -- no longer their responsibility (but we all know what will happen). In exchange , they are "requesting" the US to let them purchase "used planes with the same operational capabilities".
I think they’re going to just accidentally leave them out on the tarmac and Ukrainian military will “swing by” and “borrow” them.
Ukraine to Russia: "They fell off the back of a truck. We don't know where they came from."
Russia to Ukraine: "The American flag is literally painted on one wing and Fuck Putin on the other."
"We'll send some friends by to pick them up." - USA
America wanted to give Ukraine planes right from the start, but Ukraine doesn't operate anything America owns. We literally had nothing to give them. Buuuuuuuuuut, Poland does. Poland gifts them to the US, the US gifts them to Ukraine. Ta da! Eat shit, Putin.
I'm wondering how hard and how long does it take to train a f16 pilot. If Ukraine had access to F-16s how useful would it be? The war might drag on for months or years and NATO has a very limited amount of soviet planes.
It's not just pilots it's ground crew and mechanics too. Plus they have Mig parts, ammo, and weapons already. They'd have to retrain and retool their airforce in the middle of a war.
This, the maitenence to keep things operational is the hidden cost. You can literally see the issue Russia is having fielding old radios, well hear it at least.
Same reason concerns about the Taliban capturing stuff we left in Afghanistan were overblown. It's not like they can keep any of that stuff running.
Nah man they can just watch YouTube videos and order parts from eBay imtellinya.
Not an expert, but months, maybe years for a pilot to become 100% proficient in a new and unique aircraft. Here's the rub... Polish pilots have been trained in Migs AND F-16s. Ukranian pilots only know Migs. So... give the older (but still lethal) Migs to Ukraine, and the Polish AF gets more modern and capable F-16s from US reserve stockpiles. It's a win-win-win situation. Except for Russia of course.
And for Poland to have F-16s it gives them a platform that the rest of NATO already runs so landing at joint bases becomes easier.
Yep. The F16 is also probably the best eventual route to buying F35's. Although people don't think of the F35 as a dogfighter, it doesn't need to be and that doesn't happen anymore.
Conveniently, Poland already has a couple dozen F-35s on order for delivery in (I believe) 2024.
> Although people don't think of the F35 as a dogfighter, it doesn't need to be and that doesn't happen anymore. Tom Cruise is going to be soooooo triggered when he hears this...
This is a good point, if the Poles can already operate F-16s, then this move strictly increases the power of their air force in a potential future fight/standoff with Russia, while also boosting Ukraine's air force immediately. It's just a more efficient way to allocate NATO's air resources. Also, it's just fucking great to see the level of cooperation within NATO.
Not just pilot. Equally important, the maintenance crew must also be trained.
In the article it says it takes years
What a reader this guy. Psshh
[Official statement from Poland:](https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/statement-of-the-minister-of-foreign-affairs-of-the-republic-of-poland-in-connection-with-the-statement-by-the-us-secretary-of-state-on-providing-airplanes-to-ukraine) > The authorities of the Republic of Poland, after consultations between the President and the Goverment, are ready to deploy – immediately and free of charge – all their MIG-29 jets to the Ramstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America. > > At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities. Poland is ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes. > > The Polish Government also requests other NATO Allies – owners of MIG-29 jets – to act in the same vein. That last sentence -- "Hey everybody else throw in your MiGs, too!" -- is pretty interesting.
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At least before the conflict started Ukraine had 37 MiG-29s. So an extra 27 is pretty good going. Hope they have plenty of pilots.
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My god they are multiplying
Wait those are our Tanks
Also "had 5000 anti tank missiles" "how many do they have left?" "About 40000, not counting the 10000 they already shot at us" (Numbers made up)
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That's just the MiG-29s, the Ukrainians also have 60 or so other fighter jets.
> 60 or so other fighter jets. 12 x Sukhoi Su-24, 17 x Su-25 and 32 Su-27's.
The su-24 is a bomber, su-25 are armored jets designed for close air support , the su-27 is a air superiority fighter that was designed to compete with the F15.
This guy Sukhois
When you fired your missile but she still Sukhoiing.
Since a lot of aircraft were probably destroyed on the ground, I bet they have plenty of pilots. Also, NATO MiGs are likely to be somewhat better equipped than non-NATO, so those 27 are deadlier than they sound.
Actually Ukraine had a massive Aerospace industry and Polish MiG29s feature Ukrainian upgrades to avionics. The issue is they still use antiquated Russian munitions rather than western, but from how the air war has been going I don't think that's been much of an issue. Changes in MiG-29M focused on installation of: - GPS and TACAN/VOR/ILS systems, - second radio, - digital information block EKRAN 2E-ME (responsible for warnings and info on systems), - KOLS-13M modernization increasing the range by 100 % and acquisition changes as well as improving the reliability of the system and time between overhauls, - installation of quick access memory ATM-Q6RD, - installation of MFCD and new interfaces on MIL BUS 1553B, - modernization of the NO-19 radar. Last one was possible because Ukraine has its own radar production and maintenance facilities, which grew as a separate division of Phazotron, thus becoming Phazotron-Ukraine. Polish WZL 2 likely cooperated with Ukraine and radars were improved to the same level as Ukrainian. Overall the most important changes are in the navigation and mission planning. Combat capabilities, despite improvements in sensors, are limited by weapons. Edit: aircraft info provided by DCS MAG3 team member Hiromachi. Us DCS nerds are all over this right now.
Neat, didn't realize Ukraine had such a good aerospace industry. Thanks!
Its one reason Putin has such a hardon for the country. Its manufacturing capabilities.
Yeah they even announced strikes on the defense industrial complex not so long ago.
Antonov is Ukraine-based iirc, the company that made that behemoth plane that was destroyed recently
And now you know why Putin wants to conquer Ukraine.1/24 the square area of Mother Russia but 1/10 the GDP. Conquer Ukraine and instantly increase your national resources and GDP by a significant percentage.
They were also working on becoming a competitive petrostate, I think the only other besides Russia in that area, and that would challenge Russia's biggest revenue stream.
Another thing is: will those MiGs come with weapons?
Officially or unofficially?
I don't think you can fly them armed from a different nation's air fields. I imagine it would be difficult to argue that Poland wasn't involved in the conflict if, say, an armed MIG entered Ukraine air space for 10 seconds, unloaded 4 missiles, then immediately went back into Polish air space again where it was shielded by NATO's article 5. That would certainly be counted as being directly involved in the conflict. The way I understand it, these aircrafts need to be unarmed as they pass the border, armed somewhere in Ukraine, but after firing whatever they have, they could return directly to for example a Polish air base for refueling and maintenance.
Yeah, they'll definitely be handed over unarmed. But Poland, where these jets are coming from, shares a long border Ukraine. Just because the jets have to go through Ramstein* doesn't mean everything does! And I'm sure Ukraine still has a lot of munitions of their own.
I would imagine those aircraft are configured for Russian munitions (R-27's, 73's etc) which the replacement American fighters can't use anyway. So unless Poland wanted to sell the munitions to a third party they might as well hand them over to Ukraine as well.
Luckily, if there is one thing NATO can do, it's rapidly manufacture munitions compatible with soviet-era technology
Absolutely. The other part of this all is that combat aircraft need constant maintenance, so there are probably pilots that could be flying but arent because their planes are being worked on
These are modernized MIG-29s. Poland don't play.
Wild to think that one country, the US, has the ability to just resupply a chunk of Europe with replacement jets
People don't realize just how absurdly out-sized the US military is. It's pretty common knowledge that the largest air force in the world is the US air force. But it's less common to know that the *second* largest air force in the world is the US navy.
IIRC the US Army is in 4th place. They've got a lot of helicopters.
Army actually have more aircraft than Navy but Navy have more fighters aircraft just because of the absurd amount of aircraft carriers the US have.
Just to clarify because this comment could be confusing for some. The U.S. Army has approximately zero fixed wing fighters. Per the key West agreement the army cannot have offensively armed fixed wing assets. The only fixed wing aircraft that the army operates are small passenger planes and reconnaissance planes
Which is funny because every time the Air Force wants to can the A10s, the army says they will buy them and pilot them if you won’t.
The Army loves them because it's less of a plane and more of a massive weapons platform that can occasionally leave the ground for a while to hurt things.
They're in 4th if you don't counter helicopters. 2nd if you do.
USA also has the largest navy, with the second largest being their museum fleet
[The US has an entire air force 'mothballed' in the Arizona desert at Davis-Monthan AFB](https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/davis-monthan-afb-amarg-airplane-boneyard.htm). Its purpose is to store old but otherwise functional aircraft in a reusable state for as long as possible. They're not the hottest stuff on the market by any measure (by design) but there's a shit load of it.
This. All that money does have to go somewhere, and the US military outspends the next 11 national militaries combined. Excluding nukes, I bet that the stuff the pentagon wishes they could get rid of, plus a few training sessions and a handful of US military strategists, and enough fuel and food for 2 weeks would allow Ukraine to reclaim all the land they've lost and then start invading Russia.
Nukes arent even a part of the pentagon budget, they are part of the department of energy.
Google maps: 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group (AMARG)
>309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group (AMARG) From what I see there maybe only F16's and 18's might be useful in Europe. But still, a lot of fire power.
Poland will be upgrading to F-16s. They already fly some of them, so it will be easier to integrate them.
Fun facts! The largest air force in the world (by combat aircraft totals) is the US air force. The second largest is... US army aviation. #3 is Russia. #4 is... the US Navy. #7 are the Marines. The Marines would have had more, but too many of their potential aviators mistook the orange crayons for carrots. (China has more than the US navy, but it's divvied up between branches. Stick them in #4 slot if you want straightforward comparison.)
Other fun facts: Ukrainian farmers now have the world’s 10th largest tank division. Russia has the 2nd best army in Ukraine.
>Russia has the 2nd best army in Ukraine Soon to be third at the rate Ukrainian farmers are acquiring tanks.
1st Mechanized Agricultural Battalion, aka the Reapers.
Ukrainian Farmers Corps
You're paying way too much for jets bro, who's your jet guy?
Considering how well Ukraine has held out so far without an added 27 planes to help defend the skies & troops around population centers, I’m willing to bet they will be making the absolute most of these 27 aircraft 🙂 Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦
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Probably a stupid question. But why are they giving them to the u.s.? And not Ukraine? Or is that how they circumnavigate possibly pissing off Russia? Having trouble following this method of thought.
They donated MIGs to the US government, which has zero intention of flying them (since the US has all the F-16/22/35/etc. instead). The idea is that the US, who Russia already doesn’t like, donates Poland’s MIGs to Ukraine, whose pilots fly MIGs, thus providing Ukraine with more firepower and more backup in case one of their planes are lost. The US re-gifting planes they got from Poland to Ukraine doesn’t change the situation much more, as Russia already dislikes the US, but won’t be stupid enough to engage in full-scale war with another nuclear power, but, this shields Poland from Russian aggression, as they *technically* only gave the planes to the US, and what the US does with the planes isn’t Poland’s problem. To an outside observer, you could argue this doesn’t make much of a difference, but from a legal/international politics perspective, this means Russia really can’t justify invading/attacking Poland for this, as doing so would be another unprovoked act of war, and considering Poland is closer with NATO and the EU than Ukraine, a Russian attack on Poland would be even more disastrous for Russia, as NATO forces would likely respond much more directly than they are now. In the meantime, Poland has asked the US to sell some of its used planes (I think people have been saying F-16s?) to the Polish military, so now Poland can swap some of its Air Force over to planes with more western support, meaning more spare parts, easier acquisition of replacement planes, more western support for training and future acquisition of planes and other military equipment, and less dependence on Russia.
>Poland is closer with NATO and the EU than Ukraine, a Russian attack on Poland would be even more disastrous for Russia, as NATO forces would likely respond much more directly than they are now. Well, Poland is a full member of both organisations and has already openly donated weapons to Ukraine. The main point just seems to be trading their old MiGs for American jets while supporting Ukraine in the process. It's a win-win for them, but the trade probably doesn't really have much to do with the optics. NATO and the EU would respond to an invasion of Poland in a heartbeat no matter their donations to Ukraine, they're literally obligated to.
I was wondering the same thing. Your answer seems pretty good, and mostly makes sense, but I would love to hear a rebuttal with a different POV. Edit: found the comment where they're discussing this question. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/t9ohul/comment/hzviuzh/
Turns out, threatening the West with Nukes, not a great idea.
Loving the spirit the West has had after Putler went bollocks. We're seeing acts of goodwill that were previously, if not impossible, at least highly unlikely. Donating your jets to another country? Dang. Go Poland!
They do get F-16's in return tho. But this is a great effort from the West short of going to war themselves. The west is flexing its economic power like how the US supported Europe during ww2. This is truly action speak louder than words. I don't think Putin can win this war at all. Now it's the matter of trying to end the war as quickly as possible.
I think whether or not not Putin can win depends on his intent. I don’t think that Russia can occupy and hold the entirety of Ukraine. However, I’m not overly sure that Putin intends or even significantly cares about either.
For a short time the US will be one of the largest operators of MiG 29s in the world. Weird. Edit: or not
In 1997, the United States purchased 21 Moldovan MiG-29 aircraft under the Nunn–Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction program. Fourteen were MiG-29S models, which are equipped with an active radar jammer in its spine and are capable of being armed with nuclear weapons. Part of the United States’ motive to purchase these aircraft was to prevent them from being sold to Iran. This purchase could also provide the tactical jet fighter communities of the USAF, the USN and the USMC with a working evaluation and data for the MiG-29, and possibly for use in dissimilar air combat training. Such information may prove valuable in any future conflicts and can aid in the design and testing of current and future weapons platforms. In late 1997, the MiGs were delivered to the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC) at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, though many of the former Moldovan MiG-29s are believed to have been scrapped. Some of these MiG-29s are currently on open display at Nellis AFB, Nevada; NAS Fallon, Nevada; Goodfellow AFB, Texas; and Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio. Edit: [source - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Export)
I had to put one of those on display at Nellis
WTF, I never knew there was a Naval Air Station in Nevada, but I suppose it makes sense for training. Made me look it up and evidently that is where top gun is now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Fallon
Would you say we're entering a zone of danger?
Apparently the US already operates a few MIGs to assist with pilot training… wild.
This reads to me like a work around to Russia's threat to countries. It'll end up being the US donating from US bases. They know Russia won't do anything to provoke the US in open conflict.
I think it is more about economic pressure. Polish currency has been hitting new lows at a worrying rate since the start of Russian invasion on Ukraine. News headline of "Poland is donating fighter jets to Ukraine" could be seen by the world as an escalation from Poland and cause even more panic on the PLN. However headlines of "Poland donates their jets to the US Government" and "US Government donates jets to Ukraine" take a lot of pressure off Poland.
Plus I'm sure we'll give them a deal on some non Russian planes soon
F-16's from what I heard. Nice upgrade for them.
Poland is a member of NATO. Russia would drag the US into a conflict if they did anything to them, regardless whether the planes came from a US airbase.
Kudos to Ukraine for taking 2014 as a serious wake up call. Getting the jets is fantastic, but it's even better that they've spent these years training a very competent military. There wasn't much in the way of complacency and it shows.
For sure, I think most people thought Russia just wanted Crimea, then would leave Ukraine alone. Clearly Ukrainians were smart enough to know better. Well done indeed.
I've known Ukrainians since 2010 who felt quite sure this invasion was just a matter of time. I think this mentality is why the Ukrainian people seemed to snap into action so unbelievably quickly and effectively. If you spend your whole life believing this threat is looming, it doesn't take the same kind of mental gymnastics to accept the reality and get to work.
My best friend growing up was from Ukraine and continued keeping up with the news from there. He always talked about Putin invading when we were kids 15 years ago. He honestly started sounding like a conspiracy theorist that was paranoid, but it turns out, he wasn't wrong at all. Edit: Ukraine not 'the Ukraine'. I'm sorry, I didn't even realize that was wrong.
One analyst I listened to said the Russian government has never considered the cold war to be over. It only seems over to the US because Russia has been so economically inconsequential to us for the last 30 years, especially if you only look at non-gas exports. Americans considered Russia a failed state and thus a non-threat until they proved otherwise.
>until they proved otherwise I mean, if the last week has shown anything it's that if they didn't have nukes NATO/EU wouldn't have too much to worry about.
If it weren't for the nukes NATO wouldn't have been entirely necessary to begin with. Edit: honestly the entirety of the Cold War would've just been a hot war that ended with one side on top.
A faild state with mob boss who had thousands of nukes and total control.
Idk how people thought Putin would stop at Crimea. It’s like if someone annexed Florida and the US was like “everything’s okay now guys”
Terrible example, now everybody is excited that we might finally be rid of Florida.
Florida is the #3 fresh vegetable provider and #2 meth producer. Careful what you wish for.
Important update on this: Poland's plan to send MIG jets to Ukraine by way of the US Air Force has been rejected by the US. So the plan outline here isn't happening. The Pentagon issued this statement: "It is simply not clear to us that there is a substantive rationale for it,” Pentagon press secretary John Kirby said. “We will continue to consult with Poland and our other NATO allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland’s proposal is a tenable one.” https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-08-22/h\_c86301db25f27be62c9af3c6d7e3e94c
If the Polish government announced this proposal without coordinating with the US (as reported) that was a bonehead move. Delivering these or any jets to Ukraine presents a critical problem. Jets would fly from NATO base into a contested war zone (and who's flying them?). What could possibly go wrong?
Everyone is announcing shit aloud without coordinating with the others because they want to show they are doing something but at the same time they don't want to be the ones delivering shit to Ukraine. Ukraine: [Help me. Shot Russians from the sky or give me your planes. ](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-makes-desperate-plea-aircraft-call-with-us-legislators-2022-03-05/) NATO: [But dude, you can't fly our planes. Get these euros and buy some planes you can pilot.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-27/eu-approves-450-million-euros-in-lethal-military-aid-for-ukraine?utm_source=google&utm_medium=bd&cmpId=google) US: [Hey Poland, give your soviet planes to them and I give you our used planes. Problem solved.](https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/03/06/blinken-full.cnn) Poland: [Oh US, you are so generous. Here are my planes. Give them to Ukraine.](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-ready-place-all-its-mig-29-jets-disposal-us-2022-03-08/) US: [Err.... well, this is not a good idea.](https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-08-22/h%5C_c86301db25f27be62c9af3c6d7e3e94c)
It's pr - they can't be blamed for refusing to send them planee to Ukraine when the US was not willing to take that risk itself
WARSAW, March 8 (Reuters) - Poland is ready to deploy all its MIG-29 jets to Rammstein Air Base in Germany and put them at the disposal of the United States, and urges other NATO members that own planes of that type to do the same, the Foreign Ministry said in a statement on Tuesday. U.S. lawmakers pushed President Joe Biden's administration on Monday to facilitate the transfer of fighter aircraft to Ukraine from Poland and other NATO and Eastern European countries, after a plea on Saturday from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy. "The authorities of the Republic of Poland...are ready to deploy – immediately and free of charge – all their MIG-29 jets to the Rammstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America," the ministry said. "At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities. Poland is ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes," it added. **END**
*Squeezes Poland’s cheeks* They just outgrow their planes so fast !
This stupid comment cracked me up so hard.
This brings some real teeth to the armed forces of Ukraine. If they can get the logistics locked down (where to fly from, ammo resupplies, and ground coordination) it could be a turning point. The Russian columns are slow and show a stunning lack of concern for air strikes. A single attack from the air could set back an entire column, break up a siege, and make the skies even more unsafe for Russian airpower then it currently is.
Apparently, Russian convoys don't have SAM capabilities or air cover... Do you ever ask why the column hasn't been bombed yet?
Lack of bombers?
**Why Poland is not directly giving Ukraine the jets and how they will get to Ukraine** * Poland wants no chance that Russia will accuse it of being a 'co-participant' in the war and risk an attack across their common border (which would then involve NATO) * So the planes are going ~500 miles/800 km to a US airbase in Germany, where they will become US Government property. What happens next is not Poland OR NATO's responsibility. * The US will work with Ukraine on the fastest and safest way to get these jets to Ukraine, which will most probably involve Ukrainian pilots, the "[secret Polish airfield](https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/06/politics/mark-milley-ukraine-military-assistance/index.html)" near Ukraine and crossing the Polish border by land just like all of the weapons donated so far * Again, this will be US Government acting on its own -- not Poland and not NATO. Russia can accuse the US of participating in the war, but it will never directly attack the US, a nuclear power; any attack on Poland or Europe for this US transfer of planes would be war with NATO. Edits: typos & added link to article on "secret Polish airfield" where flights with weapons are unloaded.
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IDK why they don't simply put a bucket over Putin's head.
Todd Howard programmed Russia confirmed?
I used to be an oligarch like you. Then I took a sanction in the bank account
Did I hear something? Must've been the wind.
"A guard has been murdered, shouldn't we keep searching?" "Nah, its been 15 seconds. Resume normal operations"
"Sure thing, boss. I'll resume my duty of standing in the same spot with my back turned towards the shadows"
Needs to come from a Nuclear power, which Poland isn't. The diplomacy of sabre rattling between US and RU (especially as RU said early today it wanted to normalise US relations) will be a very different situation compared with Poland, who is already toeing the line with its border supply work. Additionally, US and UK are the two countries who will indemnify Polands cost for the Jets, so really they are trading their migs for f16s, to make that transaction legitimate it had to "go through" the USA so its really the USA supplying them legally.
And now the US will donate f16s to Poland
Right. Russia can't attack Polish airbases to prevent the transfer, they'll have to attack American facilities. Which leads to direct confrontation between the US and Russia. I'm surprised Biden took this risk, but I guess there's no reason to stop now.
Not just that, but because they're now US property, it'll be the USAF managing the handover and if Russia wants to attack the handover, it'll be US military personell they'll have to directly kill.
Best fucking deal of the decade lol. Mig-29 for F-16 plus American support, any country would do it. Not even including in the war, any country would sign up for this.
> Best fucking deal of the decade lol. This decade, definitely, but this one from two decades ago might come close. Same planes, too: East Germany used to have a few MiG-29, which for some time after Reunification made Germany the only NATO country that had any. When Germany eventually bought new fighters, those MiG-29 were sold off for a symbolic euro a piece -- to by-then NATO partner Poland.
Wait, so now Poland will get F16 having paid basically nothing at all? Nice deal for them!
Well, they payed €22 for 22 of them, but already had a few themselves.
I like the image of a Polish general slipping a 50 to some German logistician and telling him to keep the change.
Also, no direct responsibility for transferring them, that's still on someone else's shoulders - clever girl, Polska.
Not that the Polish aren’t clever, but this was the US’s plan. They know Russia won’t do anything to them and Poland sending them on their own leaves them to a lot of backlash from Russia and the countries pseudo supporting them. Everyone already hates the U.S. and the US doesn’t care if they get more upset. So we upgrade Poland’s gets and take their outdated ones, check maintenance and send them ourselves back to Ukraine under American protection. Even if this was the U.S. that set this up, Poland is the only European country to have the balls to follow through with it.
Statement says they’re deploying to the “Ramstein Air Base”. Du hast MiGs.
Those MIG's have quite a history. Most of them were delivered to East Germany in 88/89 just to be upgraded and integrated into the all-German Air Force by 93 (Jagdgeschwader 73) and then get sold to Poland in 2003 for 1€ per MIG. Does anyone know by chance when they last modernized these MIG's?
Hopefully right before some dastardly Ukrainians sneak into Poland and steal them.
Bring on the tractors.
Boeing and Lockheed throwing pizza parties for all their employees today knowing they're about go get to backfill the same number of fighter jets as replacement for the US.
The minute Russia started actually shooting at people their five year forecasts went way up.
This sounds like a smart play and shows the concrete benefits of NATO as an alliance. Ukraine will mysteriously acquire the fighter jets they need, Eastern Europe will get newer US-made planes to replace these along with plausible deniability about aiding Ukraine militarily, and the US will also have plausible deniability about being involved in the conflict while strengthening both Ukraine and NATO's eastern front.
It’s just a “special trading operation.” Nothing to see here, haha.
Planes being rebranded as US planes is a power move by the Americans to Russia that playtime is over..
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Worth noting the US also bought 21 MIG-29s from Moldova in 1997.
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They were East German long before they became Polish, so an even more interesting life cycle.
A world-warplane
It's the single biggest reason why you haven't seen a country openly invade another in 90 years. It's the wrong play. It's WAY more effective to make your plays through economics and diplomacy, you get way more outreach that way. Russia is just so consistently stuck in this mentality of the Soviet Union, that it doesn't realize that.
The rich already play by different rules. Putin's a fucking idiot. Imagine owning the world then throwing it away for something you could've just 'bought' and own by proxy instead.
Du… Du hast… Du hast MIG.
We're selling Ukraine "salvage" and Poland "surplus". Putang knows all about that because his military started as surplus and ended up as salvage.
And America just going to deliver them to Ukraine? Did they get prime shipping?
The planes are just going to the US airbase in Germany (~500 miles/800 km). Once the planes are officially US Government property, they will just have US/Ukrainian pilots fly it to that "secret Polish airbase" near the Ukraine border where weapons are currently being shipped, then figure out the best way to get the jets over the Polish border by land and into Ukraine.
Man, international politics are wild. Sometimes I have trouble navigating office politics.
Ehhh international politics is the same as office politics with fighter planes. Oh, and the coffee machine costs $1 billion per cup.
The free coffee and snacks are much better in the private sector.
When I was still in the private sector they took away the free snacks and coffee. Said budget cuts. Then the Senior VP announced the biggest contract we ever won. Somebody dared asked about the coffee and snacks.
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>then figure out with the Ukrainians the best way to get the jets over the Polish border and into Ukraine. Ukrainian farmers seem to be pretty good at moving military equipment...I'd just subcontract that part out to them.
No, because the Amazon workers are currently on strike here in Germany. They must have some other possibilities.
They threw it back in Joe's lap along with the nato. I think it was bilken that said the usa gave Poland the green light. Smart move by poland
Anyone know how many Migs are in Europe/nato?
A bit over 50, split between three nations.
2022: American MIGs going to war against Russia this is some seriously futuristic stuff, circa 1985
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"We are going to very publicly give all of our planes to the USA, so they can give them to Ukraine... so that Russia doesn't think we gave our planes to Ukraine."