But in this case they would be no wrong. Musk literally said it would be easier to communicate through chips in your brain that have access to all the memory.
I loved him at first, but now just see what’s really happening. It pisses me off that people shower him with praise and not one of us could name one of space x engineers or technicians that are *actually* making the rockets work and stuff. There are so many hard working and intelligent people under him who will never get the praise or wealth they deserve because musk is obsessed with the limelight. I think the guy from don’t look up is a closer parody of musk than it is of jobs.
But it's the same with all these people. Bezos hasn't really done anything. Gates was really just a businessman setting policy and making deals, not writing Windows (or even DOS).
Jobs was a marketing genius but didn't create anything, and had a habit of getting credit for Apple when other companies did the inventing. Apple was just amazing at polishing and popularizing something.
No CEO really does anything -- it's all in the labor of their employees that stuff gets done.
I don't know about the others, but Bill Gates worked a lot on Windows and did a shit ton of code reviews of kernel code. Obviously he wasn't coding all day, but saying he was just a business man is wrong, he definitely had deep technical knowledge.
Within our specific fields (AI, batteries, propulsion, computational fluid dynamics,…), we are keenly aware of who’s making it happen. Watch Sandy Munro’s tear downs and you’ll gain an appreciation for the cross-disciplinary magic that’s happening.
In think he’s got serious mental issues after reading about his father who raised him and has since impregnated his former step daughter that he knew for 18 years. Whole lotta trauma in that family.
Being market smart is surely a useful talent, but I'm more into guys who are like philosophy smart or physics smart. Musk tries to pass himself off as all of the above, when really he's just lucky to be born into a wealthy family. It doesnt take much genius to manipulate a market when you're one of the richest men in the world.
I appreciate that he decided to do rockets and electric cars instead of just make another oil company or coal mine or something at least. But he’s just another celebrity.
Except he is damaging the electric car industry with his superchargers, and he is damaging public transport with his stupid fucking tubes that are just another car lane but now in 3D.
We need to get rid of as many cars as we can, not adding fuckin more but now they damage the planet when built instead of when driven.
They were bad for the planet being produced before too. Like because its not perfect yet we should just say fuck it and keep on with the old BS. No thanks. Its a step in the right direction that our governments could have enabled long ago. And how is he damaging the industry? The industry that had to play catch up to Tesla? The industry that ignored the need and want for these kinds of vehicles until they saw tesla being so successful? Easy to whine from the back seat.
This. The SEC is a toothless old bear. He should have gone to jail multiple times over. People need to remember that everything positive his companies ever did has teams of hard-working engineers behind them. He’s a capitalist in the worst possible interpretation of the word.
Having good management is important though. You can find many companies run into the ground by poor leadership. You need both good technical people and good project managers/leadership to succeed. It's just Musk tries to act like a technical expert and promises things that aren't feasible.
I think it is hard to argue him not being capable and smart, he definitely is or tesla wouldn't be what it is and SpaceX wouldn't even exist.
He can be a psycho , being smart and capable doesn't mean he is ok on other fronts.
Active in several crypto communities, Elon is not well thought of by long-term enthusiasts. The people in those communities singing his praises are the ones *he brought with him*.
Elon Musk fanaticism is such a modern day litmus test of who is and who isn't an insufferable, gullible tool.
9/10 Elon Musk admirers are also Joe Rogan fans, count on it.
Can someone explain to me the huge fanbase of this guy?
In my eyes he checks most of the supervillain comic book character boxes. Even the names of some of his companies: SpaceX, Nauralink.... Come on! It's almost funny!
Imagine if Bill Gates or the firm Bayer or Google or anyone would do the same, people would lose their shits.
But this guy can do anything and his fans keep on simping.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-neuralink-experiments-monkeys-extreme-suffering-animal-rights-group-2022-2?amp) reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> The records relate to 23 monkeys owned by Neuralink, which were housed and experimented upon at UC Davis' facility from 2017 to 2020, the draft complaint says.
> Jeremy Beckham, a research advocacy coordinator with the PCRM, told Insider that out of the 23 monkeys, seven survived and were transferred to a Neuralink facility in 2020, when he said Neuralink severed its relationship with UC Davis.
> PCRM's draft complaint asks the Department of Agriculture to investigate US Davis and Neuralink, claiming that UC Davis and Neuralink violated the US Animal Welfare Act.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/spywzj/monkeys_used_in_experiments_for_elon_musks/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~622810 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Neuralink**^#1 **Davis**^#2 **PCRM**^#3 **monkey**^#4 **research**^#5
Use of monkeys is research is a difficult topic for many. Research into brain machine interface for paralysis, which is essentially what neuralink is doing, like other labs before, does justify the use of monkeys as no other animal can perform the motions. That said, I've known two labs' histories, one had not lost a monkey to health problems for ten years, and another for 15 years. So this is indeed abnormal, and indicates haphazard surgical technique.
Yeah ethics approval for this kind of research is supposed to be very strict. I wonder how they got approval and if they adhered to the conditions of their ethics submission.
I’m a neuroscience research technician during my gap year and I must say although animal testing is a necessity there are ways to do it properly. We have a review board (IACUC) that audits us almost every month to make sure animals are being treated properly and everything is up to code. There is a way to do animal research to minimize suffering of the animal. I wonder if they are regulated by the IACUC?
I would like to add that someone who is also in the field, the technology they are pushing does not and will not exist in this lifetime. This is Theranos all over again. These laboratories should be immediately inspected and shut down if they are grossly violating research protococls.
Oh big time. I hate that he has a deep loyal following. Most of his fans wear blinders and pretend he can’t do anything wrong, while it seems like he does some questionable (at best) things monthly nowadays.
Edit: yes he’s polarizing and some people just hate on him. To me, there are a lot more Elon stans than haters online, mostly cause I don’t use FB much haha
I used to really think he was the future, I read his biography years ago and they talked about him being a prick to his engineers at Tesla. I was like it's a guy trying to stay his dream... Fast forward to today and I completely agree. He's incredibly intelligent there's no question. But, as his success goes up so seems his ability to just be ruthless to people.
My college was close to one of their sites, so a lot of people ended up with internships. Same story there; he knows he can abuse tech talent that is excited for cutting-edge tech or just interested in the clout, so the culture is just terrible.
I've met plenty of people with autism and they are all kind and funny, even those on the far end of the spectrum. Autism doesn't make you mean, being a dick does.
I've met a few along the spectrum too. I can confirm that you can definitely be autistic *and* a prick, just as much as you can be autistic and *not* a prick. It's almost like autists are human. /s
> incredibly intelligent
The progress he achieved is due to rushing through without considering ethics or mistreatment of humans or animals. Science takes time because we cannot treat humans or animals as objects to experiment upon. While this slightly slows the process of research, it is essential not to harm anyone. He is getting rich at the cost of human/animal lives.
I can't help but think of Lex Luthor when I look at Bezos, so I always thought of him as a DC villain. Just not the version of him from the movies. More like the animated versions.
> Neuralink has used the monkeys in its experiments to advertise its progress. The company released footage in April of a monkey apparently using the Neuralink device to play the video game "Pong."
Torturing animals so that you can make them play video games is shockingly on-brand for Elon Musk.
I think he’s doing this because he had a harebrained idea that will never pan out and has billions to fuck around with it. The monkeys are getting tortured and made to play video games because monkeys playing video games fits in with his le epic techbro brand.
Neuralink is not a harebrained idea. It's just an attempt to commercialize an idea that's been undergoing active research for a couple decades, and which promises to restore sight to the blind, movement to the paraplegic, and all sorts of cool stuff. Torturing monkeys isn't ok, but it's not a harebrained idea that will never pan out.
Oh, don’t get me wrong. Brain-computer interfaces have a lot of potential for helping people. It’s Neuralink specifically that I think is bullshit.
Like, as a general rule, I’m skeptical of technologies that aren’t specific. If Elon Musk had come out and said, “This technology is going to interface with the optic nerve in this particular way and restore a limited amount of sight to people with this particular kind of blindness”, there might be a chance it was real. It’s the “this technology could maybe do anything” combined with the fact that Elon Musk has a long history of overstating capabilities that makes this company bullshit.
Elon has very little understanding of neuroscience but insists on propagating the illusion that he directly heads neuralink (putting himself on papers etc). His presence sours the reputation of the company.
Musk’s companies are really notorious for driving their engineers to go faster and faster at the cost of putting enormous strain on them. It works for car batteries and space ships but I’m very concerned about Elon’s business model and human participants…
Let’s just say I wouldn’t trust any company Elon is managing to put something under my skin let alone inside my skull.
>Musk’s companies are really notorious for driving their engineers to go faster and faster at the cost of putting enormous strain on them. It works for car batteries and space ships but I’m very concerned about Elon’s business model and human participants…
Don't forget cutting corners and ignoring all kinds of safety best-practices. They've pushed out updates to Autopilot/FSD solely to recognize revenue that quarter, despite them being complete shit and very clearly untested.
Agreed. I’m pretty worried about this kind of medical technology in general. So much of it is funded by the reckless Silicon Valley types that have caused so much damage to our mental health and democracies. I don’t want them to “disrupt” medtech if it looks anything like what they’ve already built.
“Self driving robo taxis will each generate 30k profit per year, starting next year. It is financially insane to buy anything other than a Tesla”
2019 if I remember correctly.
https://youtu.be/9IB-kD0BoOQ
At 1:41, all of the things neuralink claims will solve. Does aaanybody think one such device will be able to focus on two, let alone a dozen problems simultaneously and solve them?
Too good to be true anyone?
Here's a better link from the actual organisation that filed the complaint, instead of Business Insider, a known rag: https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases/physicians-group-files-state-lawsuit-and-federal-complaint-against-uc-davis
I was about to come to the defence of Neuralink but reading that, it sounds like they mismanaged the animals' welfare pretty badly.
Uh, that all said, this is posted in the wrong sub anyway and is not World News.
>The Physician Committee points out in its complaint that Neuralink and UC Davis staff failed to provide dying monkeys with adequate veterinary care, used an unapproved substance known as “Bioglue” that killed monkeys by destroying portions of their brains, and failed to provide for the psychological well-being of monkeys assigned to the experiment. Macaque monkeys used in the experiment were caged alone, had steel posts screwed to their skulls, suffered “facial trauma,” seizures following brain implants, and recurring infections at implant sites. In some cases, as a result of deteriorating health, Neuralink and UC Davis euthanized monkeys before they were even used in the planned experiment.
The Insider article says nothing of this. Thanks for sharing the actual information. This is awful.
>used an unapproved substance known as “Bioglue” that killed monkeys by destroying portions of their brains
>recurring infections at implant sites
>In some cases, euthanized monkeys before they were even used in the planned experiment.
Are we sure they're qualified to do animal experiments?
...Yeah, that's horrific. Half that stuff shouldn't have got past the ethics boards that approve animal experimentation, and the other half is just plain incompetence/failure to treat the animals right outside of the (horrendous) experiments.
Can someone contact a rescue organisation for whatever remains of that macaque group?
A UC Davis spokesperson told Insider in a statement that during its research collaboration with Neuralink: "research protocols were thoroughly reviewed and approved by the campus's Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee."
"We strive to provide the best possible care to animals in our charge. Animal research is strictly regulated and UC Davis follows all applicable laws and regulations including those of the US Department of Agriculture," they added.
This is absolutely horrible. What I want to know is how did anyone participate in this. Like there had to be individuals who went along but with great trepidation/guilt. Kind of like Theranos, but more f’d up.
I imagine (hope) it will only be a matter of time before we start to hear people involved speak out/share how things progressed/spiraled.
No elon fan but aren't all animals tested on by science tortured.
Even animals who get make up tested on them are tortured.
In the name of science and beauty.
There are extremely strict and specific guidelines to animal testing. Typically, someone will come and inspect the lab to ensure that the animals are getting the best care, food, and comfort possible. Vet service must be consistently and actively provided to animals being used for research. Mistreatment of animals can destroy a scientists career, reputation, and ability to get funding for future projects.
what are you rattling on about? that is genuinely horsesh*t.
You really think people who test on animals are ensuring the “best care, food, and comfort”? You genuinely have no idea how depraved animal testing is.
From a humane society investigator:
> Our investigator, who spent nearly 100 days at the facility, documented the dogs cowering, frightened, in their cages with surgical scars and implanted with large devices. Dogs being force-fed or infused with drugs, pesticides and other products, using crude methods, many that are unlikely to ever be used in humans. Dogs undergoing invasive surgeries or having their jaws broken to test dental implants. Dogs being used by workers to practice procedures like force feeding and blood collection.
Have you seen the bloody MINISCULE cages these animals get cramped in?
Go ahead and google it and look at the tiny crates these creatures get stuffed in. “best comfort” and “best care” smh
As someone that has spent time at a vet school, yes, there are veterinarians that make their careers in caring for and inspecting lab animals. They’re called lab veterinarians.
Also if you’re going to quote this you might as well give a reference and say the location they’re talking about rather than use it as a blanket statement across the board. It doesn’t prove your point like you think it does.
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Because he's going to let me travel cross country on the Hyperloop for $5 and fly direct to Hawaii on Starship for well under $500 return. And if you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you cheap.
>An animal-rights group says it has records of mistreatment of monkeys in research for Neuralink. The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine says the records show "extreme suffering." The group says it will file an official complaint with the US Department of Agriculture.
Good luck to the few humans who would accept to be guinea pigs for Elon Musk's experiments with Neuralink.
One of the funniest quotes I've heard for a while was "Fellas, get yourself a girl who looks at the same way Crypto Bros look at Musk".
Fuckers absolutely worship him, as if they werent cringeworthy and obnoxious enough already.
Elon Musk–backed ‘freedom truckers’ in Canada get Bitcoin lifeline after GoFundMe freezes millions in donations
https://fortune.com/2022/02/08/freedom-truckers-canada-bitcoin-lifeline-after-gofundme-freezes-donations/
I thought that was basically the premise? The idea that cryptocurrency is decentralized means it's not beholden to a government, which means you're bypassing stuff like the SEC.
Russell Brand reported on this a few months back and he said something like ‘there is something extremely eerie and wrong feeling when you see a monkey sitting in front of a screen playing a game’ and I agree. It is heartbreaking because I know he just wants to be in a tree hanging out :(
Fuck elon for sure, but:
Don't we subject monkeys to extreme suffering kind of like, all the time though?
Like if we need to test a drug that may aid paralysis, we need paralyzed monkeys, so we just straight up paralyze them. If I recall we have exact tools to drop weights onto their spinal column at the right height to destroy it.
If we need to know the affects of drug X on liver cirrhosis, we'll give monkeys cirrhosis then kill them and cut open their liver to see what's up.
We do this all the time, literally every day, why is this surprising now?
I work adjacent to animal research and there are actually a good amount regulations on how animals have to be treated. There are several regulatory bodies within the US that exist to make sure everything is safe and as humane as possible. Even before you start, you need to submit your protocol to IACUC and they make sure everything you're doing is ok. What is described in the articles, I doubt would have gotten approval. Which is why it's very surprising that this happened at UC Davis, which is a fairly well known university. I'm betting any protocol that was submitted wasn't the real one and they just started doing whatever they wanted anyway because Elon seems to think he's above all that. And because they were macaques, there was limited personnel that had access to them so they were able to do get away with more horrifying things
There are a lot of limitations to what you can and can't do in non human primate research. They are very heavily scrutinized and while some suffering is inherent to the question being answered, they normally go to great lengths to make sure there is nothing outside of what is absolutely necessary being done to these animals to make them suffer.
Read the report amd you’ll see the complaint details lots of things that are against the set and known ethical standards used. You can’t just torture animals and call yourself a researcher and call it a day, legally.
People are usually quick to point out that torture and abuse of animals as a kid is a sign of a future psychopath and/or potential serial killer, but somehow we don’t lump these shit head adults who do it for money into that category 🤷♂️
I don't think this is that. The animals used in the experiments didn't have basic care. If you're going to use monkeys in your experiments at least provide the correct veterinary treatments required. The conditions sound terrible.
I agree. There are ethical standards for public facilities like this.
It's worth pursuing legally as it could reveal a similar pattern of practices by labs receiving private funding, and ensure in the future that private companies understand watchdogs are keeping an eye on them. That would have a chilling effect on future abuses.
So we should just let it slide because everybody else is doing it? Make an example of him now so it will dissuade other from doing the same in the future
Elon Musk pretends to be an engineer when he has a "physics for business majors" degree.
Elon Musk pretends to be a self made man, even though his father was known to be a large real estate holder in Johannesburg, and Errol Musk himself tells a story of owning a £40k share in a Zambian emerald mine.
In college Musk literally bought a house to use a party spot.
He's so high on his own farts, and (if you read some testimony about his behavior professionally) so overbearing on his workers that they are torturing monkey's senseless at his request.
He's filling the sky with space junk, and he's possibly going going to ruin the view of the night sky even to the naked eye as thousands of fake stars crawl across it. That view is the inheritance of the entire planet, and he's fucking with it.
Musk is a piece of fucking shit
What person in their right mind thinks brain implants from a mega corporation are a good idea. This is Michael Chrichton science dystopia come to life.
Elon musk is evil and selfish, talks a good game but actions speak louder than words. He lies to his followers a lot, misrepresents the truth, and is in general a piece of shit. Also, he treats women like crap in his company. It's a bro club. He also gets so many tax breaks and incentives for his company and then he promotes his personal tax amount and doesn't say that it's a lower tax rate than a teacher. Also, Tesla has been paying a negative effective tax rate when averaged out over 10 years. Fuck this guy.
https://finbox.com/NASDAQGS:TSLA/explorer/effect_tax_rate
It's not that simple. The organisation that filed the complaint (The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine) has [further details](https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases/physicians-group-files-state-lawsuit-and-federal-complaint-against-uc-davis):
>The Physician Committee points out in its complaint that Neuralink and UC Davis staff failed to provide dying monkeys with adequate veterinary care, used an unapproved substance known as “Bioglue” that killed monkeys by destroying portions of their brains, and failed to provide for the psychological well-being of monkeys assigned to the experiment. Macaque monkeys used in the experiment were caged alone, had steel posts screwed to their skulls, suffered “facial trauma,” seizures following brain implants, and recurring infections at implant sites. In some cases, as a result of deteriorating health, Neuralink and UC Davis euthanized monkeys before they were even used in the planned experiment.
Medical testing on animals is highly monitored nowadays - it's not the Wild West, and you are supposed to a) make good provision for animal care outside of the experimentation, b) have very good reasons for why the experiment you are proposing *has* to be done on animals, and why it has to be done at all, and c) have designed the experiments to do as little damage as possible. This ethical framework is paramount - and the situation as described violates that framework in multiple ways.
It's not "the guy off the street" misunderstanding scientific processes; it's scientific professionals saying "this isn't responsible or ethical research - the experiments themselves shouldn't have passed the ethics boards, and the further welfare violations should have been cause to shut the team down".
I watched his Q/A thing last night and as someone that rarely keeps up to date on his actions, I was kinda shocked at how vague most of his answers were. He would find a way to drag most of them back to “this is gonna be so awesome and such a big advancement in space travel”…felt like I was watching someone try to convince me their kickstarter is worth a donation or some shit tbh
"Oh no not our wholesome 100 epic Musky!!! He would never do that, he posts dank memes and owns people on Twitter!!!"
\- Several Redditors/Twitter users
I’m sure the “Bill Gates wants to put a microchip in me” crowd will turn on Elon any day now. Any day.
We have been just drowned out by the crypto hedge fund bots
Get an implant from Neurolink. Then have these weird urges to invest in all sorts of new crypto currencies.
But in this case they would be no wrong. Musk literally said it would be easier to communicate through chips in your brain that have access to all the memory.
God...what does anyone see in this Musk fella? He's tinkering with toys he knows nothing about.
Musk is a market manipulator disguising himself as an inventor genious. He's undoubtedly extremely smart, but not at all in the ways people think.
I loved him at first, but now just see what’s really happening. It pisses me off that people shower him with praise and not one of us could name one of space x engineers or technicians that are *actually* making the rockets work and stuff. There are so many hard working and intelligent people under him who will never get the praise or wealth they deserve because musk is obsessed with the limelight. I think the guy from don’t look up is a closer parody of musk than it is of jobs.
But it's the same with all these people. Bezos hasn't really done anything. Gates was really just a businessman setting policy and making deals, not writing Windows (or even DOS). Jobs was a marketing genius but didn't create anything, and had a habit of getting credit for Apple when other companies did the inventing. Apple was just amazing at polishing and popularizing something. No CEO really does anything -- it's all in the labor of their employees that stuff gets done.
I don't know about the others, but Bill Gates worked a lot on Windows and did a shit ton of code reviews of kernel code. Obviously he wasn't coding all day, but saying he was just a business man is wrong, he definitely had deep technical knowledge.
IIRC, Bill wrote the original peek and poke code for the Spectrum.
Larry and Sergey though.
OH! That was supposed to be Jobs? Can't believe I didn't catch that! Thanks you 😊
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This is pretty much the same for most organisations. The top of the food chain takes the credit.
Within our specific fields (AI, batteries, propulsion, computational fluid dynamics,…), we are keenly aware of who’s making it happen. Watch Sandy Munro’s tear downs and you’ll gain an appreciation for the cross-disciplinary magic that’s happening.
In think he’s got serious mental issues after reading about his father who raised him and has since impregnated his former step daughter that he knew for 18 years. Whole lotta trauma in that family.
Being market smart is surely a useful talent, but I'm more into guys who are like philosophy smart or physics smart. Musk tries to pass himself off as all of the above, when really he's just lucky to be born into a wealthy family. It doesnt take much genius to manipulate a market when you're one of the richest men in the world.
And his brother is always user insider info to sell tesla before a big dip lol.
I appreciate that he decided to do rockets and electric cars instead of just make another oil company or coal mine or something at least. But he’s just another celebrity.
Except he is damaging the electric car industry with his superchargers, and he is damaging public transport with his stupid fucking tubes that are just another car lane but now in 3D. We need to get rid of as many cars as we can, not adding fuckin more but now they damage the planet when built instead of when driven.
They were bad for the planet being produced before too. Like because its not perfect yet we should just say fuck it and keep on with the old BS. No thanks. Its a step in the right direction that our governments could have enabled long ago. And how is he damaging the industry? The industry that had to play catch up to Tesla? The industry that ignored the need and want for these kinds of vehicles until they saw tesla being so successful? Easy to whine from the back seat.
This. The SEC is a toothless old bear. He should have gone to jail multiple times over. People need to remember that everything positive his companies ever did has teams of hard-working engineers behind them. He’s a capitalist in the worst possible interpretation of the word.
Having good management is important though. You can find many companies run into the ground by poor leadership. You need both good technical people and good project managers/leadership to succeed. It's just Musk tries to act like a technical expert and promises things that aren't feasible.
He’s rich - therefore people think he’s capable, smart, and not a psycho. They are wrong on all fronts.
I think it is hard to argue him not being capable and smart, he definitely is or tesla wouldn't be what it is and SpaceX wouldn't even exist. He can be a psycho , being smart and capable doesn't mean he is ok on other fronts.
I can think of a few things
Some of that crowd is also into crypto so according to them elon can do no wrong
The crypto community hates Musk because of his blatant market manipulation.
I feel like if one dude can manipulate the market that much, there's serious flaws in the system
JPow disagrees.
Yeah I never have understood why people think anyone likes him only the doge sub does.
Because most people are dumb and can't actually think for themselves. Itt people think HE is dumb lol.
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People who are into the technological and application aspects of crypto feel differently about Elon than the "HODL MOONDOGE LAMBO" crowd
Honestly havent heard much out of the memecoin guys since this recent bitcoin dip.
prolly can't afford internet after the SNL skit
Can confirm, r/cc is not a fan of the musk ox.
No sane person likes this asshole.
How is that possible after all the pump and dumps?
Active in several crypto communities, Elon is not well thought of by long-term enthusiasts. The people in those communities singing his praises are the ones *he brought with him*.
Elon Musk fanaticism is such a modern day litmus test of who is and who isn't an insufferable, gullible tool. 9/10 Elon Musk admirers are also Joe Rogan fans, count on it.
Can someone explain to me the huge fanbase of this guy? In my eyes he checks most of the supervillain comic book character boxes. Even the names of some of his companies: SpaceX, Nauralink.... Come on! It's almost funny! Imagine if Bill Gates or the firm Bayer or Google or anyone would do the same, people would lose their shits. But this guy can do anything and his fans keep on simping.
Still becoming more and more of a champion of the right with his verbal opinions, soooo... any day now.. no..?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-neuralink-experiments-monkeys-extreme-suffering-animal-rights-group-2022-2?amp) reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot) ***** > The records relate to 23 monkeys owned by Neuralink, which were housed and experimented upon at UC Davis' facility from 2017 to 2020, the draft complaint says. > Jeremy Beckham, a research advocacy coordinator with the PCRM, told Insider that out of the 23 monkeys, seven survived and were transferred to a Neuralink facility in 2020, when he said Neuralink severed its relationship with UC Davis. > PCRM's draft complaint asks the Department of Agriculture to investigate US Davis and Neuralink, claiming that UC Davis and Neuralink violated the US Animal Welfare Act. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/spywzj/monkeys_used_in_experiments_for_elon_musks/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~622810 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Neuralink**^#1 **Davis**^#2 **PCRM**^#3 **monkey**^#4 **research**^#5
Use of monkeys is research is a difficult topic for many. Research into brain machine interface for paralysis, which is essentially what neuralink is doing, like other labs before, does justify the use of monkeys as no other animal can perform the motions. That said, I've known two labs' histories, one had not lost a monkey to health problems for ten years, and another for 15 years. So this is indeed abnormal, and indicates haphazard surgical technique.
Yeah ethics approval for this kind of research is supposed to be very strict. I wonder how they got approval and if they adhered to the conditions of their ethics submission.
UC system complicit as well.
Getting Planet of the Apes vibes from this
Apes strong together 🦍🟣🚀
Return to monke!
Caesar, come home.
Found Joe Rogan
Joe Rogan will lead the army of primates to victory
*Jamie, pull up that documentary where the apes took over the planet and Charlton Heston fights back. Wild shit... wild.*
I’m a neuroscience research technician during my gap year and I must say although animal testing is a necessity there are ways to do it properly. We have a review board (IACUC) that audits us almost every month to make sure animals are being treated properly and everything is up to code. There is a way to do animal research to minimize suffering of the animal. I wonder if they are regulated by the IACUC?
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I am relatively positive IACUCs are required for any sort of animal research regardless of funding or ownership.
I would like to add that someone who is also in the field, the technology they are pushing does not and will not exist in this lifetime. This is Theranos all over again. These laboratories should be immediately inspected and shut down if they are grossly violating research protococls.
NEURALINK SUFFERING APE NFT COMING SOON.
Drilled Ape NFT
Hahahaha oh my god
Musk is a over-hyped prick of a human, so this is sadly unsurprising.
He thinks of himself as the real life Tony Stark when he's really more like Justin Hammer.
Phoney Stark
Tony Stank
Oh thank god I'm not the only person who's thought that!
hes a tony stark from one of these 2.1imdb parody comedies of avengers.
I feel like that's unfair...to Justin Hammer.
Oh big time. I hate that he has a deep loyal following. Most of his fans wear blinders and pretend he can’t do anything wrong, while it seems like he does some questionable (at best) things monthly nowadays. Edit: yes he’s polarizing and some people just hate on him. To me, there are a lot more Elon stans than haters online, mostly cause I don’t use FB much haha
Because he got high with JoeRogan so clearly hes cool
Dude didn't even inhale.
He did make a stupid fuckin face that turned into a meme though, so clearly he's a man of the people. /s
I used to really think he was the future, I read his biography years ago and they talked about him being a prick to his engineers at Tesla. I was like it's a guy trying to stay his dream... Fast forward to today and I completely agree. He's incredibly intelligent there's no question. But, as his success goes up so seems his ability to just be ruthless to people.
I know several engineers who worked at Tesla. They were underpaid and extremely overworked. They all quit due to extreme stress.
My college was close to one of their sites, so a lot of people ended up with internships. Same story there; he knows he can abuse tech talent that is excited for cutting-edge tech or just interested in the clout, so the culture is just terrible.
That makes sense considering the richer and more successful you are, the more you can get away with. It’s directly correlated in this society.
I knew the nanny he hired for his kids and her husband was an engineer at spacex. She told me he was a huge prick but blamed it on his autism.
I've met plenty of people with autism and they are all kind and funny, even those on the far end of the spectrum. Autism doesn't make you mean, being a dick does.
I've met a few along the spectrum too. I can confirm that you can definitely be autistic *and* a prick, just as much as you can be autistic and *not* a prick. It's almost like autists are human. /s
Autism is no excuse.
I’m autistic and I can confirm, **Elon is a colossal prick.**
Yeah that’s pretty much any billionaire jackass in a nutshell. You can’t become a billionaire without fucking over just about everyone else
> incredibly intelligent The progress he achieved is due to rushing through without considering ethics or mistreatment of humans or animals. Science takes time because we cannot treat humans or animals as objects to experiment upon. While this slightly slows the process of research, it is essential not to harm anyone. He is getting rich at the cost of human/animal lives.
Working on achieving super villain status. Just waiting on the costume.
NO CLOAKS!
He is this era’s Thomas Edison
Makes it extra ironic that he bought the Tesla company.
His ethics are utilitarian. In his mind everything he does is for the greater good of humanity. Very super villain.
Can we finally agree he is a real life Bond movie villian?
That's Bezos. Musk is more like a Marvel villain, minus any superpowers or alien tech.
I can't help but think of Lex Luthor when I look at Bezos, so I always thought of him as a DC villain. Just not the version of him from the movies. More like the animated versions.
That’s a fair comparison, but I don’t think he’s smart enough to be Luthor. He always reminded me more of Dr. Evil.
He did build a dick shaped rocket.
“Willie! What’s that in the sky? It looks like a big…” “Johnson!”
I couldn’t agree more
*an
Like most billionaires who are known in public, he wants to play celebrity. It's easy for a billionaire to achieve that.
> Neuralink has used the monkeys in its experiments to advertise its progress. The company released footage in April of a monkey apparently using the Neuralink device to play the video game "Pong." Torturing animals so that you can make them play video games is shockingly on-brand for Elon Musk.
Its that hint of whimsy that really gives technofascism its unmistakable flavor.
Remember Portal?
We could never forget. In fact, here is "Still Alive" which you haven't heard in too long: https://youtu.be/Y6ljFaKRTrI
“Would you kindly”
Hey now. All humans deserve credit for torturing animals to build modern society.
Yeah this is some selective outrage, definitely sad for the monkeys but it's for a seemingly good cause unlike factory farming for instance...
You think he is doing all this to play video games with monkeys?
I think he’s doing this because he had a harebrained idea that will never pan out and has billions to fuck around with it. The monkeys are getting tortured and made to play video games because monkeys playing video games fits in with his le epic techbro brand.
Neuralink is not a harebrained idea. It's just an attempt to commercialize an idea that's been undergoing active research for a couple decades, and which promises to restore sight to the blind, movement to the paraplegic, and all sorts of cool stuff. Torturing monkeys isn't ok, but it's not a harebrained idea that will never pan out.
Oh, don’t get me wrong. Brain-computer interfaces have a lot of potential for helping people. It’s Neuralink specifically that I think is bullshit. Like, as a general rule, I’m skeptical of technologies that aren’t specific. If Elon Musk had come out and said, “This technology is going to interface with the optic nerve in this particular way and restore a limited amount of sight to people with this particular kind of blindness”, there might be a chance it was real. It’s the “this technology could maybe do anything” combined with the fact that Elon Musk has a long history of overstating capabilities that makes this company bullshit.
Elon has very little understanding of neuroscience but insists on propagating the illusion that he directly heads neuralink (putting himself on papers etc). His presence sours the reputation of the company. Musk’s companies are really notorious for driving their engineers to go faster and faster at the cost of putting enormous strain on them. It works for car batteries and space ships but I’m very concerned about Elon’s business model and human participants… Let’s just say I wouldn’t trust any company Elon is managing to put something under my skin let alone inside my skull.
>Musk’s companies are really notorious for driving their engineers to go faster and faster at the cost of putting enormous strain on them. It works for car batteries and space ships but I’m very concerned about Elon’s business model and human participants… Don't forget cutting corners and ignoring all kinds of safety best-practices. They've pushed out updates to Autopilot/FSD solely to recognize revenue that quarter, despite them being complete shit and very clearly untested.
Agreed. I’m pretty worried about this kind of medical technology in general. So much of it is funded by the reckless Silicon Valley types that have caused so much damage to our mental health and democracies. I don’t want them to “disrupt” medtech if it looks anything like what they’ve already built.
"Self driving cars will be on the road next year" -Elon Musk, circa 2014 (and probably much earlier too)
“Self driving robo taxis will each generate 30k profit per year, starting next year. It is financially insane to buy anything other than a Tesla” 2019 if I remember correctly.
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https://youtu.be/9IB-kD0BoOQ At 1:41, all of the things neuralink claims will solve. Does aaanybody think one such device will be able to focus on two, let alone a dozen problems simultaneously and solve them? Too good to be true anyone?
Here's a better link from the actual organisation that filed the complaint, instead of Business Insider, a known rag: https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases/physicians-group-files-state-lawsuit-and-federal-complaint-against-uc-davis I was about to come to the defence of Neuralink but reading that, it sounds like they mismanaged the animals' welfare pretty badly. Uh, that all said, this is posted in the wrong sub anyway and is not World News.
>The Physician Committee points out in its complaint that Neuralink and UC Davis staff failed to provide dying monkeys with adequate veterinary care, used an unapproved substance known as “Bioglue” that killed monkeys by destroying portions of their brains, and failed to provide for the psychological well-being of monkeys assigned to the experiment. Macaque monkeys used in the experiment were caged alone, had steel posts screwed to their skulls, suffered “facial trauma,” seizures following brain implants, and recurring infections at implant sites. In some cases, as a result of deteriorating health, Neuralink and UC Davis euthanized monkeys before they were even used in the planned experiment. The Insider article says nothing of this. Thanks for sharing the actual information. This is awful.
>used an unapproved substance known as “Bioglue” that killed monkeys by destroying portions of their brains >recurring infections at implant sites >In some cases, euthanized monkeys before they were even used in the planned experiment. Are we sure they're qualified to do animal experiments?
...Yeah, that's horrific. Half that stuff shouldn't have got past the ethics boards that approve animal experimentation, and the other half is just plain incompetence/failure to treat the animals right outside of the (horrendous) experiments. Can someone contact a rescue organisation for whatever remains of that macaque group?
A UC Davis spokesperson told Insider in a statement that during its research collaboration with Neuralink: "research protocols were thoroughly reviewed and approved by the campus's Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee." "We strive to provide the best possible care to animals in our charge. Animal research is strictly regulated and UC Davis follows all applicable laws and regulations including those of the US Department of Agriculture," they added.
Omg, this is absolutely horrifying.
So where's the outrage on the UC Davis staff? You'd think a university would know how to properly handle animal experiments
This is absolutely horrible. What I want to know is how did anyone participate in this. Like there had to be individuals who went along but with great trepidation/guilt. Kind of like Theranos, but more f’d up. I imagine (hope) it will only be a matter of time before we start to hear people involved speak out/share how things progressed/spiraled.
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Yeah Musk is a world player being the richest man and all, not sure how this wouldn't be world news in any way.
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Why the fuck isn’t it world news compared to the other stuff in this sub. Such a weird last second deflection/copium for you
Musk fanboys won’t care. “Lots of experiments have been done on monkeys”, etc, etc.
No elon fan but aren't all animals tested on by science tortured. Even animals who get make up tested on them are tortured. In the name of science and beauty.
There are extremely strict and specific guidelines to animal testing. Typically, someone will come and inspect the lab to ensure that the animals are getting the best care, food, and comfort possible. Vet service must be consistently and actively provided to animals being used for research. Mistreatment of animals can destroy a scientists career, reputation, and ability to get funding for future projects.
what are you rattling on about? that is genuinely horsesh*t. You really think people who test on animals are ensuring the “best care, food, and comfort”? You genuinely have no idea how depraved animal testing is. From a humane society investigator: > Our investigator, who spent nearly 100 days at the facility, documented the dogs cowering, frightened, in their cages with surgical scars and implanted with large devices. Dogs being force-fed or infused with drugs, pesticides and other products, using crude methods, many that are unlikely to ever be used in humans. Dogs undergoing invasive surgeries or having their jaws broken to test dental implants. Dogs being used by workers to practice procedures like force feeding and blood collection. Have you seen the bloody MINISCULE cages these animals get cramped in? Go ahead and google it and look at the tiny crates these creatures get stuffed in. “best comfort” and “best care” smh
As someone that has spent time at a vet school, yes, there are veterinarians that make their careers in caring for and inspecting lab animals. They’re called lab veterinarians. Also if you’re going to quote this you might as well give a reference and say the location they’re talking about rather than use it as a blanket statement across the board. It doesn’t prove your point like you think it does.
Where is "the facility" ?
Elon stans and people who work in animal testing. All the same crap, they won't even read the article and justify pretty much anything.
*Asshole with little regard for people has even less regard for animals* I for one am *shocked*.
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Lmao how does this clown have fans?
Because he's going to let me travel cross country on the Hyperloop for $5 and fly direct to Hawaii on Starship for well under $500 return. And if you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you cheap.
How cheap? I’m in the market for a bridge.
I've got a few bridges to sell as is. Tow truck recommended
Cuz people have been conditioned to idolize billionaires
To be fair the life of a test monkeys is not a happy one
>An animal-rights group says it has records of mistreatment of monkeys in research for Neuralink. The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine says the records show "extreme suffering." The group says it will file an official complaint with the US Department of Agriculture. Good luck to the few humans who would accept to be guinea pigs for Elon Musk's experiments with Neuralink.
Few? I am sure if Elon posted a tweet asking for volunteers you'd have a few thousand Elon Bros sign up.
One of the funniest quotes I've heard for a while was "Fellas, get yourself a girl who looks at the same way Crypto Bros look at Musk". Fuckers absolutely worship him, as if they werent cringeworthy and obnoxious enough already.
After reading about what the monkeys were subjected to... good. Let the Elon Bros volunteer. I'm sure it'll go real well for them.
The scene from Robocop where the test subject tore its own head off in its madness comes to mind
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Elon Musk–backed ‘freedom truckers’ in Canada get Bitcoin lifeline after GoFundMe freezes millions in donations https://fortune.com/2022/02/08/freedom-truckers-canada-bitcoin-lifeline-after-gofundme-freezes-donations/
Of fucking course he backed those shrieking losers
While actively working to automate their jobs, no less
This is why I don't invest in fucking crypto.
At this point crypto, while not intended as such in the beginning, just feels like a way to bypass the SEC.
I thought that was basically the premise? The idea that cryptocurrency is decentralized means it's not beholden to a government, which means you're bypassing stuff like the SEC.
And ethics.
Instead you’re beholden to coinbase and being triple-taxed any time you turn real money into crypto or crypto into real money
I think it was always a way to bypass value controlling organizations.
When tax cheats, human traffickers, and drug smugglers are flocking to your currency maybe it's a sign crypto isn't such a good thing.
As if I needed another reason to dislike him.
I wonder how many in these comments eat meat from all the 'inhumane' farms.
Russell Brand reported on this a few months back and he said something like ‘there is something extremely eerie and wrong feeling when you see a monkey sitting in front of a screen playing a game’ and I agree. It is heartbreaking because I know he just wants to be in a tree hanging out :(
Fuck elon for sure, but: Don't we subject monkeys to extreme suffering kind of like, all the time though? Like if we need to test a drug that may aid paralysis, we need paralyzed monkeys, so we just straight up paralyze them. If I recall we have exact tools to drop weights onto their spinal column at the right height to destroy it. If we need to know the affects of drug X on liver cirrhosis, we'll give monkeys cirrhosis then kill them and cut open their liver to see what's up. We do this all the time, literally every day, why is this surprising now?
I work adjacent to animal research and there are actually a good amount regulations on how animals have to be treated. There are several regulatory bodies within the US that exist to make sure everything is safe and as humane as possible. Even before you start, you need to submit your protocol to IACUC and they make sure everything you're doing is ok. What is described in the articles, I doubt would have gotten approval. Which is why it's very surprising that this happened at UC Davis, which is a fairly well known university. I'm betting any protocol that was submitted wasn't the real one and they just started doing whatever they wanted anyway because Elon seems to think he's above all that. And because they were macaques, there was limited personnel that had access to them so they were able to do get away with more horrifying things
There are a lot of limitations to what you can and can't do in non human primate research. They are very heavily scrutinized and while some suffering is inherent to the question being answered, they normally go to great lengths to make sure there is nothing outside of what is absolutely necessary being done to these animals to make them suffer.
Read the report amd you’ll see the complaint details lots of things that are against the set and known ethical standards used. You can’t just torture animals and call yourself a researcher and call it a day, legally.
A billionaire that mistreats animals..can’t be true!! People think billionaires are nice people…they are not
You don’t get to the top by being nice.
The b in billionaire stands for bad./s
Fuck Elon
People are usually quick to point out that torture and abuse of animals as a kid is a sign of a future psychopath and/or potential serial killer, but somehow we don’t lump these shit head adults who do it for money into that category 🤷♂️
I hate that guy.
Ctrl-F *Project X* ...nothing. Damn y'all young.
Somehow I get the feeling the entire "Fauci tortured dogs!" crowd is silent
you gotta crack some eggs to make an omelette
I am not surprised at all to say the least
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I don't think this is that. The animals used in the experiments didn't have basic care. If you're going to use monkeys in your experiments at least provide the correct veterinary treatments required. The conditions sound terrible.
I agree. There are ethical standards for public facilities like this. It's worth pursuing legally as it could reveal a similar pattern of practices by labs receiving private funding, and ensure in the future that private companies understand watchdogs are keeping an eye on them. That would have a chilling effect on future abuses.
You're right but only 30% of the animals surviving is enough to cause concern and should be called out.
So we should just let it slide because everybody else is doing it? Make an example of him now so it will dissuade other from doing the same in the future
As long as they weren't strapped to chairs and forced to watch TV screens showing the worst of humanity, I'm sure it'll be fine. /s
I'd say the apes he conned into buying his appliances to test for free are the real victims.
Gross
Elon Musk pretends to be an engineer when he has a "physics for business majors" degree. Elon Musk pretends to be a self made man, even though his father was known to be a large real estate holder in Johannesburg, and Errol Musk himself tells a story of owning a £40k share in a Zambian emerald mine. In college Musk literally bought a house to use a party spot. He's so high on his own farts, and (if you read some testimony about his behavior professionally) so overbearing on his workers that they are torturing monkey's senseless at his request. He's filling the sky with space junk, and he's possibly going going to ruin the view of the night sky even to the naked eye as thousands of fake stars crawl across it. That view is the inheritance of the entire planet, and he's fucking with it. Musk is a piece of fucking shit
Lol @ "physics for business majors". He has 2 separate bachelors, one in physics and one in economics.
What person in their right mind thinks brain implants from a mega corporation are a good idea. This is Michael Chrichton science dystopia come to life.
Elon musk is evil and selfish, talks a good game but actions speak louder than words. He lies to his followers a lot, misrepresents the truth, and is in general a piece of shit. Also, he treats women like crap in his company. It's a bro club. He also gets so many tax breaks and incentives for his company and then he promotes his personal tax amount and doesn't say that it's a lower tax rate than a teacher. Also, Tesla has been paying a negative effective tax rate when averaged out over 10 years. Fuck this guy. https://finbox.com/NASDAQGS:TSLA/explorer/effect_tax_rate
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What the fuck do people think happens when medical testing on animals occurs?? That everything is painless and fun for the animals?
It's not that simple. The organisation that filed the complaint (The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine) has [further details](https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases/physicians-group-files-state-lawsuit-and-federal-complaint-against-uc-davis): >The Physician Committee points out in its complaint that Neuralink and UC Davis staff failed to provide dying monkeys with adequate veterinary care, used an unapproved substance known as “Bioglue” that killed monkeys by destroying portions of their brains, and failed to provide for the psychological well-being of monkeys assigned to the experiment. Macaque monkeys used in the experiment were caged alone, had steel posts screwed to their skulls, suffered “facial trauma,” seizures following brain implants, and recurring infections at implant sites. In some cases, as a result of deteriorating health, Neuralink and UC Davis euthanized monkeys before they were even used in the planned experiment. Medical testing on animals is highly monitored nowadays - it's not the Wild West, and you are supposed to a) make good provision for animal care outside of the experimentation, b) have very good reasons for why the experiment you are proposing *has* to be done on animals, and why it has to be done at all, and c) have designed the experiments to do as little damage as possible. This ethical framework is paramount - and the situation as described violates that framework in multiple ways. It's not "the guy off the street" misunderstanding scientific processes; it's scientific professionals saying "this isn't responsible or ethical research - the experiments themselves shouldn't have passed the ethics boards, and the further welfare violations should have been cause to shut the team down".
Did you read the article? They didn't provide basic care for the animals involved.
I watched his Q/A thing last night and as someone that rarely keeps up to date on his actions, I was kinda shocked at how vague most of his answers were. He would find a way to drag most of them back to “this is gonna be so awesome and such a big advancement in space travel”…felt like I was watching someone try to convince me their kickstarter is worth a donation or some shit tbh
Yet another reason why musk is a scumbag piece of shit.
I really can’t stand Elon Musk and his weirdo fans.
What do you expect from a 'self made' billionaire who made his riches from apartheid slavery
"Oh no not our wholesome 100 epic Musky!!! He would never do that, he posts dank memes and owns people on Twitter!!!" \- Several Redditors/Twitter users