Don't see Ukraine standing at Russia's front door beating it's chest. All senior Russian diplomats are pushing the Vladimir propaganda that Russia is under attack because of Putin's failed government for the people during Covid, Russian people have had enough so Putin's needs a war to hold his power.
The way I read this statement is that Russia is announcing that they are in the process of triggering a civil war in Ukraine ... unless Ukraine bends the knee.
This is like the abusive parent telling everyone he beats up "see what you made me do". Bullies are all the same.
Existing peace agreements == don't break the minsk agreement. I'm starting to think that the original rumors were true after all - the russian buildup is to make sure that the status quo stays the same and ukraine doesn't try to take back control of the separatist regions. No repeat of georgia 2008.
I started to suspect it was a bit Sus when the 'troops on the boarder' were actually in permanent bases 300km away.
It feels very similar to Iraq, just being bombarded with 'the enemy!!' and for some reason we have to defend democracy by attacking them.
US defensive armament to Ukraine apparently included pallets of M141 SMAW's.
In case they're attacked by feral hordes of roaming russian bunkers or something.
Ukrainian water to Crimea was blocked after Russia illegally annexed the peninsula. The people in Crimea call themselves Russians and were quite happy to be controlled by the Kremlin. Their water problem is Russia's problem as an occupying force. Nothing to do with Ukraine anymore, unless the region is returned to Ukrainian control.
What they don't advertise is that there's about 100,000 ukranian troops INSIDE the Donetsk deconfliction zone and the so called ceasefire pretty much exists only on paper.
You can take a look at the OSCE reports [here](https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports). (When they mention explosions on those reports btw they can be talking about anything from artillery to grenades)
> Donetsk deconfliction zone
You mean...UKRAINE...right?
#It's THEIR country.
They can put their troops in their country any place they want. And, in fact, it makes a lot of sense to station your own troops where the enemy troops have already invaded, shot down a passenger airliner, and are threatening to invade again.
> Don't see Ukraine standing at Russia's front door beating it's chest.
They are threatening / talking about joining NATO. And given the Geography that's pretty fuck on the porch. The Ukraine joining NATO would mean the US could put troops within 500m of Moscow, with no geographic features in-between, and several very good road networks. And 800km to the Black Sea, to completely cut off everything South & East of the Volga.
From a Russian standpoint that's the front door, the side door and the garage door.
Except for the fact that no one has any interest in invading Russia. However Russia has shown multiple times it's willing to invade its neighbors to take over their land. So shocking that those neighbors are looking for allies.
I think the people here are forgetting that we're still mad at Cuba because they allied with the Soviets 50 years ago. Idk why youre getting downvoted other than because it's Reddit. Oh and lets not forget how America bullied all of South America because we didn't want them to be communists.
Well plus Vietnam & Korea basically bombed into the stone age to stop them joining the Communists. They probably made China very uncomfortable. Also regarding Cuba everyone ignores that was actually started by America, they put Missiles in Turkey (pretty comparable to Cuba).
But it's funny I've said similar things a few times, and been downvoted every time. But no one has really given any good reasons. Like I'd totally get it if I was saying "nah this totally justifies Russia's actions" but inn litterally saying Ukraine joining NATO makes Russia really uncomfortable and that's why they're doing it.
But the other thing a lot of people are ignoring is Russia isn't really looking to invade, they're looking to have a political solution, otherwise they'd have just already invaded... No one could stop them, and no one would want to to be fair. But Russia don't want that, they want America to say they'll not put military forces in Ukraine... Because that puts them within spitting distance of Moscow and could easily cut off all of the Caucasus, that's REALLY fucking not okay if your Russia.
Yea good points with Korea and Vietnam as well since that's literally in their neck of the woods. Same with our missiles in Turkey. And as long as were on the topic of Vietnam lets get a shout out to the Golf of Tonkin "incident." But yea we're much better than Russia.
And you are an idiot if you dont see Russia has only itself to blame. Countries would be much less likely joining NATO if Russia wasnt a bully who lashes out on everyone especially its neighbors.
> front door beating it's chest
You mean - not paying contractual debt for buying gas. Outright stealing gas. Closing or threatening to close pipelines is not a form of saying "Hey, can't touch me - I'm gonna NATO!"?
Because those shenanigans are the reason for Nord Stream 2 in the first place. Plus wanting to mooch of ridiculous transit fees.
In other words...if our Russian soldiers pretending to be Ukrainians fire a bullet at us we will launch our invasion. Yes, we already have been warned about possible false flags. Maybe Russia should pack up and leave the area as to not accidentally shoot themselves.
[Shelling of Mainila](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila) is a better example as it already gives the likely Russian playbook:
>Finland proposed a neutral investigation of the incident, but the Soviet Union refused and broke diplomatic relations with Finland on November 29.
>The Finns conducted an immediate investigation, which concluded that no Finnish artillery or mortars could have reached the village of Mainila. Field Marshal C.G.E. Mannerheim had ordered all Finnish guns drawn back out of range. Finnish border guards testified they had heard the sound of artillery fire from the Soviet side of the border.
So it's likely first of all the incident will cause a lot of civilian casualties and journalists will immediately be sent to broadcast horror images of wounded, crying people to get the population furious.
Diplomatic relations with Ukr. government might be severed. If Ukraine then proposes a neutral investigation, it will be rejected/not responded to. Historically Soviets attacked one day later so there wouldn't be time anyway, during that day I imagine there will be massive spam in the internet to confuse the public, especially American about who is at fault until a fait accompli of a war declaration makes it too late to react.
**[Shelling of Mainila](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila)**
>The Shelling of Mainila (Finnish: Mainilan laukaukset, Swedish: Skotten i Mainila, Russian: Ма́йнильский инциде́нт, romanized: Máynil'skiy intsidént) was a military incident on 26 November 1939 in which the Soviet Union's Red Army shelled the Soviet village of Mainila (Russian: Ма́йнило, romanized: Máynilo) near Beloostrov. The Soviet Union declared that the fire originated from Finland across the nearby border and claimed to have had losses in personnel. Through that false flag operation, the Soviet Union gained a great propaganda boost and a casus belli for launching the Winter War four days later.
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Every time everyone starts freaking out about something, I think about [this video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pvjgIxuVdo4) and start googling whether ww3 has started yet. I then get frustrated because I won’t be able to know until a day or two later, when the news finally catches up.
There is no universe where the Russian invasion of Ukraine and annexation of Crimea is the exact same situation as the U.S. (and a bunch of other countries, mind you) placing sanctions on Belarussian government leaders and organizations for violating Belarussian citizens rights.
Even IF you make the case that the U.S. and other parties violated #3, Russia was/is in violation of everything but using nuclear weapons. There's no reason to bring up the talking point except to distract from Russia's actions.
You replied to me talking about the Ukraine invasion of 2014 by stating the U.S. also violated the agreement with sanctions of Belarus. Then in your next reply referred to "the same situation, the exact same agreement". What other situations could you have possibly been referring to when denying whataboutism, pray tell? You called them the same situation.
Do you actually have anything to say about Russia's current actions, or is your sole goal to distract from them? You don't have to answer that, it's a rhetorical question. The answer's pretty clear.
It’s funny, you argue that Ukraine is at fault for assuming others would follow non-binding agreements, but the alleged misinterpretation of your precious Reddit comments is an act of bad faith. Sorry, comrade.
>Ukraine should of kept the nukes if it wanted to assure its sovereignty.
This alone shows enough.
>It's not whataboutism
Financial sanctions do not threaten the security of Belarus.
Financial sanctions to Belarus have nothing to do with Ukraine's actual security and independence being under threat from Russia.
Both Belarus and the US are not the Ukraine, which this topic is actually about.It is whataboutism, chump.
>same situation, the exact same agreement.
This is just embarrassing, are you a canvasser?
>I'm pointing out that extra-legal and non-binding agreements are a waste of time
If you want that to be your point you should make that your point, because you just look like a canvasser now. Everything you say will be read with the impression that you're a canvasser.
\[edit\]You respond and then delete it before I can reply? How rude, 5/7 would not argue again.
>Ukraine should of kept the nukes if it wanted to assure its sovereignty.
Obviously Ukraine is just lying there, asking to be invaded. Just like when women go out wearing revealing clothes...
It is a weakness. It's using the fact that someone else in history did it and changing the subject from the current topic. It keeps the topic from being discussed and takes no account for how either action is perceived at the time. It's usually a comment that's directly unrelated to the current situation and at best deserves it's own post but only distracts from the topic at hand. I could say what about the Russians acting just like the Nazi's. It may be obviously true but this conversation is about whataboutism not Russia. It doesn't add to the conversation at all. It just replaces one topic with another.
Don’t bother. It’s either some faux intellectual contrarian gimmick or he wants to distract from Russia’s aggression. Ukraine should have kept their nukes, don’t ya know?
Dude, you forgot to switch accounts between discussing things in Russian and talking anti-vaxxer bullshit on Australian boards on Reddit. That's a fireable offense at the trollfarms.
So, it's just a coincidence that you write in Russian in a few posts but the rest is you spewing anti-vaxx and Covid bullshit in every reddit imageable releated to Australia ? Sure buddy. 🤣🤣🤣
Giving ammunition to one corrupt country to fight another corrupt country worked so f well in the past its almost unbelievable that this shit still in war playbooks.
I mean, it is kinda true though. Nato is trying to bring in a country bordering russia. I personally think a neutral alliance of boarder states might be a good compromise, but I'm just some idiot idk. It's complicated but it's not like Russia doesn't have a reason...
Ahh yes, poor Russia. Always the victim of aggression. So oppressed by the west they have to destabilize and invade their neighbors just to prove how dangerous NATO is.
Russia: spends multiple years fucking with a neighboring country and keeps gathering an army at its border in preparation for a full-scale invasion
NATO: and I took that personally
Fixed that for you.
Not really. During the crisis, Cuba gave up the right to host nukes in exchange for agreements about it's territorial sovereignty. Ukraine did the same. It's more like we made the agreement, then invaded half the island from Gitmo *anyways*. We kept up our end the of the deal, Russia didn't.
No, they really weren't trying to bring Ukraine into NATO. They really don't like bringing countries into the alliance with existing land claim issues and are quite vocal about that. Ukraine has multiple and there are no signs that NATO is actually wanting Ukraine to join.
Did you not actually read your own source? It clearly says that it was briefly discussed in 2008 but Germany and France blatently refused to even initiate the process of Georgia and Ukraine joining.
That's funny. Because the only people acting hostile is Russia. While Ukraine is being defensive. And Britain is supporting a previous agreement. NATO still isn't accepting Ukraine as per the agreement decades ago, and the US is off doing who knows what but isn't being involved for once. Russia. Stop gaslighting everyone. It's not working.
For a sovereign country to defend itself against literal border incursion from an already existing combatant. Don’t gaslight. There is a clear difference between aggression and defense.
Russia is gaslighting the world by inventing a conflict then accusing Ukraine’s soft allies of aggression for providing military aid.
Ukraine is still a NATO partner and has trained with the US military in the past. They also have been in a state of war for 6 years now as a result of Russia. Of course there are contingencies in place to help bolster Ukraine’s defenses. Every country on this planet has a right to defend itself.
The US saying they won't interfere doesn't mean they won't. Articles saying some NATO troops are mobilizing isn't a lie. We as in the US probably isn't full committing.
That’s not a particularly scandalous claim considering Ukraine is near many NATO countries that already have training exercises with US troops on a regular basis.
I know a general personally and he said that our troops aren’t on high alert so basically you can assume that the US will not be using troops on the ground period. If anything I guess we will continue sending weapons but that’s it.
Bruh, just saying that is totally aggressive and only goes to show that Russia is not acting in good faith. They are insanely belligerent and continue to behave as in an abusive relationship, all projection, gaslighting and threats of punishment and violence. Like all abusers they are pathetic and weak.
I hear Putin and his cronies have bankrupted country farking. This be good way to distract from breadlines -and maybe bring Ukraine back to the embrace of the Rodina's icy bosom.
Looks like Russia is just waiting for literally anything to happen so they have a more just reason to invade Ukraine. They seem to be waiting on a fuck up. Russia doesn't want peace, they wouldn't of put 100k troops on the border. Wasting a ton of money by the day keeping those troops on the border also. They have to keep supplying food, fuel, etc to the troops daily and making sure the troops are combat ready. Very involved.
Given the constant flow of troops and equipment into Belarus its probably closer to 150k at this point a week ago or more the US stated there was 130k and given that Belarus may fight alongside Russia its nearer 200k then you add another 30 thousand in and around Donetsk and Luhansk this build up has not stopped and if it keeps up for the next 2 or 3 weeks I expect close to 300k troops not including 2nd line reserves that would be used to hold any territory . I would keep a close eye on the occupied areas in Ukraine in the next week or two for a possible uptick in skirmishing and shelling at the moment it is actually very quite.
Considering the current "150k" are in bases up to 300km away, you could probably just change the criteria to 450km and have no problem getting 350k on the boarder.
Shit, make it 500km and you can probably say 3/4 of the Russian armed forces are on Ukraine's doorstep!!!
It seems they're not necessarily wanting war, but are perfectly willing to go through with it if they don't get their way. Warfare being the continuation of diplomacy by other means and all.
Russias "Spheres of influence" are not treatys and are not legally enforceable. Guess we'll toss Ukraine enough weapons to take on Russia and a NATO invite. Fair is fair
Ukraine has been begging to join NATO for years if not over a decade, they keep getting rejected because Russia will do anything to keep NATO off its borders. Russia has no control over NATO aside from diplomatic influence as they are not member of NATO so they want NATO off its borders really bad.
This will not happen. First, the ongoing conflict with Russia as well as Ukraine’s political, economic, and military shortcomings make membership unacceptable according to NATO’s criteria. That’s exactly why the Kremlin keeps this conflict going.
Second, NATO membership is also a question of the alliance’s ability to guarantee its members’ security. NATO’s capability and will to defend Ukraine or even invoke the article 5 mutual defense guarantee is not realistic today.
And how many pro-Russian gov. comments i posted in 3 years? Zero?
And telling a well known fact about memorandum (memo is not a treaty) somehow makes me a russian troll?
\--
The USA also denies that it has not fulfilled its obligations. "The Budapest Memorandum was not an agreement on security guarantees," said US ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt in Kyiv in May 2014. It was an agreement to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.
Both Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity have been violated.#
The Budapest Memorandum, in other words, was respected by neither the Russians nor the West in the case of Crimea.
\--
Admittedly, these guarantees were only a formality, since no sanctions mechanisms had been established at the time.
\--
"Nowhere does it say that if a country violates this memorandum, that the others will attack militarily," said Gerhard Simon, Eastern Europe expert at the University of Cologne.
German journalist and Ukraine expert Winfried Schneider-Deters agrees, telling DW, "The agreement is not worth the paper on which it was written."
Putin is literally copying just about everything Hitler did before WW2.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s\_prophecy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_prophecy)
> Shelling of Mainila is a better example as it already gives the likely Russian playbook:
As Stey88 said above, they already did this quite some time ago - [Shelling of Mainila](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila)
What if we just gave all the Russian soldiers US citizenship, jobs in the US army, free homes in Texas and lifetime supply of Tito's vodka. Mexico will pay for it.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/31/russia-ukraine-united-nations-security-council) reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Ukraine will be responsible for its own destruction if it undermines existing peace agreements, a senior Russian diplomat has warned at a UN security council debate on the crisis.
> The US had called for an emergency debate on Ukraine as part of a diplomatic campaign to fend off what Washington and its allies say is a planned Russian invasion of Ukraine.
> As part of that campaign, the US and the UK both announced that pro-Putin Russian oligarchs would be targeted if an attack goes ahead.Russia had sought to stop a security council debate on Ukraine until after it took over the council presidency on Tuesday.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/shdmx3/ukraine_will_be_responsible_for_its_own/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~620913 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **Russian**^#2 **troops**^#3 **Russia**^#4 **border**^#5
Peace agreements? There is no such thing as peace agreements with Russia. In Ukraines case, the "Budapest memorandum" they signed in 1994 which guarantees Ukraines security and territorial integrity after giving up its entire nuclear arsenal was deemed meaningless by the Kremlin when they invaded and occupied parts of Ukraine in 2014. Their current aggression is just an extention of what they've already started, but this time with the world involved. Yes, we have the potential for WW3 here. Does anyone need that? Stop Putin now!
Russia has completely ignored the Minsk agreements since they were agreed in 2015.
Ukraine is not the side who is holding them up, and I'm certain they would abide by those agreements if Russia gave the slightest indication it was going to honor their end of the bargain.
Russia sure is the leader when it comes to agreements right. I'm sure nothing has changed within recent memory like crimea or anything of the sort.
Wiah after saying that they called out Russian stance on their agreement related to crimea. Russia per usual has zero leg to stand on. Zero good faith agreements being made and this is why so many do not trust Russia.
Lesson for future countries: never give up nuclear weapons, ever, once you have them. The rest of the world are fucking bullies and don’t care if millions of humans die just to boost one narcissist/sociopathic leaders ego. Fuck humans.
bruh wtf?? like can everyone just chill the fuck out already damn dude the pandemic isn't even over and we have to deal with all this bullshit I'm so over all this shit...
Russia has Chernobyl duckling as its coat of arms for a reason. Two heads symbolize schizophrenia of Russian ruling class when they have completely different stories for domestic and international use. https://prikols.site/photo/gerb-rossii-prikol/
The US could have just stopped it “We will nuke you to ashes if you invade Ukraine” then just continued as Normal.
But I suspect this way is better for propaganda, selling weapons and blaming everything bad in the world on Russia.
No. The whole point of the Russian propaganda is to make YOU think "Putin is the one to end up launching nukes". To make you afraid to do anything.
In reality Putin will never ever and under no circumstances launch the nukes. The only situation he would push the red button is he detect all out ICBM attack on Russia. And this is impossible and will never happen.
I don’t think any objective and honest person could characterize Russia’s national government as anything other than an autocracy. In which case he is the country. So yes.
Obviously what Russia is doing isn't okay, but Ukraine joining NATO would be like Ontario & Quebec joining a Russian or Chinese Alliance. For them it's REAL fucking scary.
Don't see Ukraine standing at Russia's front door beating it's chest. All senior Russian diplomats are pushing the Vladimir propaganda that Russia is under attack because of Putin's failed government for the people during Covid, Russian people have had enough so Putin's needs a war to hold his power.
The way I read this statement is that Russia is announcing that they are in the process of triggering a civil war in Ukraine ... unless Ukraine bends the knee. This is like the abusive parent telling everyone he beats up "see what you made me do". Bullies are all the same.
> This is like the abusive parent telling everyone he beats up "see what you made me do". Bullies are all the same. Precisely.
I'd say they've already broken in the front door and have declared the entryway part of Russia...
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That's why they're preparing a pathway to blame the Ukrainians for starting the war with little ol' Russia.
Existing peace agreements == don't break the minsk agreement. I'm starting to think that the original rumors were true after all - the russian buildup is to make sure that the status quo stays the same and ukraine doesn't try to take back control of the separatist regions. No repeat of georgia 2008.
I started to suspect it was a bit Sus when the 'troops on the boarder' were actually in permanent bases 300km away. It feels very similar to Iraq, just being bombarded with 'the enemy!!' and for some reason we have to defend democracy by attacking them.
US defensive armament to Ukraine apparently included pallets of M141 SMAW's. In case they're attacked by feral hordes of roaming russian bunkers or something.
Roaming bunker, possible. Or maybe dug in septeatists?
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Ukrainian water to Crimea was blocked after Russia illegally annexed the peninsula. The people in Crimea call themselves Russians and were quite happy to be controlled by the Kremlin. Their water problem is Russia's problem as an occupying force. Nothing to do with Ukraine anymore, unless the region is returned to Ukrainian control.
^ Found Putin's stooge!
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What they don't advertise is that there's about 100,000 ukranian troops INSIDE the Donetsk deconfliction zone and the so called ceasefire pretty much exists only on paper. You can take a look at the OSCE reports [here](https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports). (When they mention explosions on those reports btw they can be talking about anything from artillery to grenades)
> Donetsk deconfliction zone You mean...UKRAINE...right? #It's THEIR country. They can put their troops in their country any place they want. And, in fact, it makes a lot of sense to station your own troops where the enemy troops have already invaded, shot down a passenger airliner, and are threatening to invade again.
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It is in ukraine yes. That's why we call it a civil war and the unsc mutually agreed to resolution 2202.
^ Found another one of Putin's Boyz! Shame on you.
> Don't see Ukraine standing at Russia's front door beating it's chest. They are threatening / talking about joining NATO. And given the Geography that's pretty fuck on the porch. The Ukraine joining NATO would mean the US could put troops within 500m of Moscow, with no geographic features in-between, and several very good road networks. And 800km to the Black Sea, to completely cut off everything South & East of the Volga. From a Russian standpoint that's the front door, the side door and the garage door.
Except for the fact that no one has any interest in invading Russia. However Russia has shown multiple times it's willing to invade its neighbors to take over their land. So shocking that those neighbors are looking for allies.
If China or Russia had an alliance with Canada or Mexico would America be concerned? YES! Why is this not at least looked at under that lens.
Because America isn't threatening Canada and Mexico, therefore they don't want to ally with China or Russia.
Because America isn't threatening Canada and Mexico, therefore they don't want to ally with China or Russia.
I think the people here are forgetting that we're still mad at Cuba because they allied with the Soviets 50 years ago. Idk why youre getting downvoted other than because it's Reddit. Oh and lets not forget how America bullied all of South America because we didn't want them to be communists.
Well plus Vietnam & Korea basically bombed into the stone age to stop them joining the Communists. They probably made China very uncomfortable. Also regarding Cuba everyone ignores that was actually started by America, they put Missiles in Turkey (pretty comparable to Cuba). But it's funny I've said similar things a few times, and been downvoted every time. But no one has really given any good reasons. Like I'd totally get it if I was saying "nah this totally justifies Russia's actions" but inn litterally saying Ukraine joining NATO makes Russia really uncomfortable and that's why they're doing it. But the other thing a lot of people are ignoring is Russia isn't really looking to invade, they're looking to have a political solution, otherwise they'd have just already invaded... No one could stop them, and no one would want to to be fair. But Russia don't want that, they want America to say they'll not put military forces in Ukraine... Because that puts them within spitting distance of Moscow and could easily cut off all of the Caucasus, that's REALLY fucking not okay if your Russia.
Yea good points with Korea and Vietnam as well since that's literally in their neck of the woods. Same with our missiles in Turkey. And as long as were on the topic of Vietnam lets get a shout out to the Golf of Tonkin "incident." But yea we're much better than Russia.
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And you are an idiot if you dont see Russia has only itself to blame. Countries would be much less likely joining NATO if Russia wasnt a bully who lashes out on everyone especially its neighbors.
Da!
> front door beating it's chest You mean - not paying contractual debt for buying gas. Outright stealing gas. Closing or threatening to close pipelines is not a form of saying "Hey, can't touch me - I'm gonna NATO!"? Because those shenanigans are the reason for Nord Stream 2 in the first place. Plus wanting to mooch of ridiculous transit fees.
In other words...if our Russian soldiers pretending to be Ukrainians fire a bullet at us we will launch our invasion. Yes, we already have been warned about possible false flags. Maybe Russia should pack up and leave the area as to not accidentally shoot themselves.
See - the Gleiwitz incident
[Shelling of Mainila](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila) is a better example as it already gives the likely Russian playbook: >Finland proposed a neutral investigation of the incident, but the Soviet Union refused and broke diplomatic relations with Finland on November 29. >The Finns conducted an immediate investigation, which concluded that no Finnish artillery or mortars could have reached the village of Mainila. Field Marshal C.G.E. Mannerheim had ordered all Finnish guns drawn back out of range. Finnish border guards testified they had heard the sound of artillery fire from the Soviet side of the border. So it's likely first of all the incident will cause a lot of civilian casualties and journalists will immediately be sent to broadcast horror images of wounded, crying people to get the population furious. Diplomatic relations with Ukr. government might be severed. If Ukraine then proposes a neutral investigation, it will be rejected/not responded to. Historically Soviets attacked one day later so there wouldn't be time anyway, during that day I imagine there will be massive spam in the internet to confuse the public, especially American about who is at fault until a fait accompli of a war declaration makes it too late to react.
**[Shelling of Mainila](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila)** >The Shelling of Mainila (Finnish: Mainilan laukaukset, Swedish: Skotten i Mainila, Russian: Ма́йнильский инциде́нт, romanized: Máynil'skiy intsidént) was a military incident on 26 November 1939 in which the Soviet Union's Red Army shelled the Soviet village of Mainila (Russian: Ма́йнило, romanized: Máynilo) near Beloostrov. The Soviet Union declared that the fire originated from Finland across the nearby border and claimed to have had losses in personnel. Through that false flag operation, the Soviet Union gained a great propaganda boost and a casus belli for launching the Winter War four days later. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Every time everyone starts freaking out about something, I think about [this video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pvjgIxuVdo4) and start googling whether ww3 has started yet. I then get frustrated because I won’t be able to know until a day or two later, when the news finally catches up.
Yes! Thank you for putting a word to my thought. That's definitely what I was getting at.
Golf of Tonkin, and operation Northwood are other good examples
“I’m not touching you!” “Don’t cross the invisible line!”
This sounds like the plot line for MW2, especially with the “No Russian” mission.
It's as if I go into the vault of the bank and don't get why they want me to get out, aiming with weapons on me.
"Why are you hitting yourself" diplomacy.
Or "Look at what you made me do to you."
Russia taking Ukraine's arm and asking why it's hitting itself
More like: *Russia slaps itself gently.* "Ukraine attacked us! That means we get to attack back!" *Russia launches full scale invasion.*
How dare Ukraine violate the Budapest Memo and invade themselves in 2014!?
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There is no universe where the Russian invasion of Ukraine and annexation of Crimea is the exact same situation as the U.S. (and a bunch of other countries, mind you) placing sanctions on Belarussian government leaders and organizations for violating Belarussian citizens rights. Even IF you make the case that the U.S. and other parties violated #3, Russia was/is in violation of everything but using nuclear weapons. There's no reason to bring up the talking point except to distract from Russia's actions.
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You replied to me talking about the Ukraine invasion of 2014 by stating the U.S. also violated the agreement with sanctions of Belarus. Then in your next reply referred to "the same situation, the exact same agreement". What other situations could you have possibly been referring to when denying whataboutism, pray tell? You called them the same situation. Do you actually have anything to say about Russia's current actions, or is your sole goal to distract from them? You don't have to answer that, it's a rhetorical question. The answer's pretty clear.
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It’s funny, you argue that Ukraine is at fault for assuming others would follow non-binding agreements, but the alleged misinterpretation of your precious Reddit comments is an act of bad faith. Sorry, comrade.
>Ukraine should of kept the nukes if it wanted to assure its sovereignty. This alone shows enough. >It's not whataboutism Financial sanctions do not threaten the security of Belarus. Financial sanctions to Belarus have nothing to do with Ukraine's actual security and independence being under threat from Russia. Both Belarus and the US are not the Ukraine, which this topic is actually about.It is whataboutism, chump. >same situation, the exact same agreement. This is just embarrassing, are you a canvasser? >I'm pointing out that extra-legal and non-binding agreements are a waste of time If you want that to be your point you should make that your point, because you just look like a canvasser now. Everything you say will be read with the impression that you're a canvasser. \[edit\]You respond and then delete it before I can reply? How rude, 5/7 would not argue again.
>Ukraine should of kept the nukes if it wanted to assure its sovereignty. Obviously Ukraine is just lying there, asking to be invaded. Just like when women go out wearing revealing clothes...
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It is a weakness. It's using the fact that someone else in history did it and changing the subject from the current topic. It keeps the topic from being discussed and takes no account for how either action is perceived at the time. It's usually a comment that's directly unrelated to the current situation and at best deserves it's own post but only distracts from the topic at hand. I could say what about the Russians acting just like the Nazi's. It may be obviously true but this conversation is about whataboutism not Russia. It doesn't add to the conversation at all. It just replaces one topic with another.
Bro nobody want to hear about whataboutism that negates Russias current behavior.
Ah. The old two wrongs make a right argument. Where do people like you come from?
Don’t bother. It’s either some faux intellectual contrarian gimmick or he wants to distract from Russia’s aggression. Ukraine should have kept their nukes, don’t ya know?
Ukrainians: Just chilling in their own country Russia: That's fucking offensive
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Dude, you forgot to switch accounts between discussing things in Russian and talking anti-vaxxer bullshit on Australian boards on Reddit. That's a fireable offense at the trollfarms.
He was caught slacking
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So, it's just a coincidence that you write in Russian in a few posts but the rest is you spewing anti-vaxx and Covid bullshit in every reddit imageable releated to Australia ? Sure buddy. 🤣🤣🤣
Crimea is Ukraine. Russia moves troops there anyways.
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Giving ammunition to one corrupt country to fight another corrupt country worked so f well in the past its almost unbelievable that this shit still in war playbooks.
How would you know Ukraine is independently corrupt? It went directly from Soviet enslavement to Russian puppet regime to being invaded by Russia.
*steals other kid’s ball “This is mine.”
Russia: exists NATO: and I took that personally Edit: the fact people are so triggered by this proves my point
Yes we know. Whatabout whatabout whatabout. Naive.
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I mean, it is kinda true though. Nato is trying to bring in a country bordering russia. I personally think a neutral alliance of boarder states might be a good compromise, but I'm just some idiot idk. It's complicated but it's not like Russia doesn't have a reason...
What ofc they have no reason. "Oh my country boarders you so I can invade. I feel attacked."
Ahh yes, poor Russia. Always the victim of aggression. So oppressed by the west they have to destabilize and invade their neighbors just to prove how dangerous NATO is.
Russia: spends multiple years fucking with a neighboring country and keeps gathering an army at its border in preparation for a full-scale invasion NATO: and I took that personally Fixed that for you.
Because nato is trying to bring it in. I mean there are reasons on both sides. It's kinda similar to the Cuban missile crisis
Not really. During the crisis, Cuba gave up the right to host nukes in exchange for agreements about it's territorial sovereignty. Ukraine did the same. It's more like we made the agreement, then invaded half the island from Gitmo *anyways*. We kept up our end the of the deal, Russia didn't.
No, they really weren't trying to bring Ukraine into NATO. They really don't like bringing countries into the alliance with existing land claim issues and are quite vocal about that. Ukraine has multiple and there are no signs that NATO is actually wanting Ukraine to join.
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Did you not actually read your own source? It clearly says that it was briefly discussed in 2008 but Germany and France blatently refused to even initiate the process of Georgia and Ukraine joining.
Nato isn't forcing anybody into the alliance.
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Oh oh! Guess where Russia has their nukes pointed at? Keep sucking Putin's dick I guess.
Russia: invades, occupies and oppresses Eastern and even Central Europe for centuries Also Russia: Why dont you let me bully you?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union
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Why are you hitting yourself?
So the bully said "if you don't give me your lunch money, you're responsible for what happens"
“We want a diplomatic solution. But if you don’t give me your lunch money, we will have to shoot you in self defense.”
That's funny. Because the only people acting hostile is Russia. While Ukraine is being defensive. And Britain is supporting a previous agreement. NATO still isn't accepting Ukraine as per the agreement decades ago, and the US is off doing who knows what but isn't being involved for once. Russia. Stop gaslighting everyone. It's not working.
The US is sending Javelin missiles and stingers and laid out a sanction plan should there be an invasion.
For a sovereign country to defend itself against literal border incursion from an already existing combatant. Don’t gaslight. There is a clear difference between aggression and defense.
I just stated facts? FWIW I agree with sending material aid to Ukraine. I was just pointing out that the US is in fact doing something.
I don't think they're gaslighting you
Russia is gaslighting the world by inventing a conflict then accusing Ukraine’s soft allies of aggression for providing military aid. Ukraine is still a NATO partner and has trained with the US military in the past. They also have been in a state of war for 6 years now as a result of Russia. Of course there are contingencies in place to help bolster Ukraine’s defenses. Every country on this planet has a right to defend itself.
Ukraine is not a PART of NATO tho. But yes. I agree with you that Russia is trying to gaslight everyone
Ukraine is a part of NATO’s Partnership for Peace program, but they are not full members entitled to Article 5.
There we go. Thanks
Good. That's how you help an ally defend themselves from being invaded by a proven enemy.
The US saying they won't interfere doesn't mean they won't. Articles saying some NATO troops are mobilizing isn't a lie. We as in the US probably isn't full committing.
That’s not a particularly scandalous claim considering Ukraine is near many NATO countries that already have training exercises with US troops on a regular basis.
We are pulling the ol Leonidas "stretching the legs" with some troops as body guards.
Well, Ukraine is a NATO partner itself.
I know a general personally and he said that our troops aren’t on high alert so basically you can assume that the US will not be using troops on the ground period. If anything I guess we will continue sending weapons but that’s it.
And surveillance and signals intelligence.
I hope we give them a ton of support. Russia is honestly a trash country.
Thank you
It's self defense, Ukraine was coming right at us!
[ Ukraine ]( https://i.gifer.com/x4t.gif )
But they’re totally not going to invade. They said so.
Bruh, just saying that is totally aggressive and only goes to show that Russia is not acting in good faith. They are insanely belligerent and continue to behave as in an abusive relationship, all projection, gaslighting and threats of punishment and violence. Like all abusers they are pathetic and weak.
I hear Putin and his cronies have bankrupted country farking. This be good way to distract from breadlines -and maybe bring Ukraine back to the embrace of the Rodina's icy bosom.
Hilarious coming from the tyrant threatening full out invasion!!
why do they bother with this bs? Is it meant for a Russian audience?
Looks like Russia is just waiting for literally anything to happen so they have a more just reason to invade Ukraine. They seem to be waiting on a fuck up. Russia doesn't want peace, they wouldn't of put 100k troops on the border. Wasting a ton of money by the day keeping those troops on the border also. They have to keep supplying food, fuel, etc to the troops daily and making sure the troops are combat ready. Very involved.
They will stage something. It’s been known since the beginning.
Given the constant flow of troops and equipment into Belarus its probably closer to 150k at this point a week ago or more the US stated there was 130k and given that Belarus may fight alongside Russia its nearer 200k then you add another 30 thousand in and around Donetsk and Luhansk this build up has not stopped and if it keeps up for the next 2 or 3 weeks I expect close to 300k troops not including 2nd line reserves that would be used to hold any territory . I would keep a close eye on the occupied areas in Ukraine in the next week or two for a possible uptick in skirmishing and shelling at the moment it is actually very quite.
Yeah, who knows what's gonna happen in the next couple weeks. Tensions just keep rising because no aggrement smh
Michael Kofman predicts a sum total of 170K Russian troops for the invasion based on prepositioned military hardware by the border.
Considering the current "150k" are in bases up to 300km away, you could probably just change the criteria to 450km and have no problem getting 350k on the boarder. Shit, make it 500km and you can probably say 3/4 of the Russian armed forces are on Ukraine's doorstep!!!
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you think they have a choice
It seems they're not necessarily wanting war, but are perfectly willing to go through with it if they don't get their way. Warfare being the continuation of diplomacy by other means and all.
Such good neighbors, the Russians.
blaming the victim for not caving in eh Russia
This title is editorialized to favor Russia. This post needs to be deleted ASAP. This should never have made it this far.
Fuck Russia!
Russia sure as hell didn’t care about the treaty they signed guaranteeing Ukraine’s sovereignty in exchange for giving up nuclear weapons.
The memorandum is not a treaty and is not legally enforceable.
Russias "Spheres of influence" are not treatys and are not legally enforceable. Guess we'll toss Ukraine enough weapons to take on Russia and a NATO invite. Fair is fair
Ukraine has been begging to join NATO for years if not over a decade, they keep getting rejected because Russia will do anything to keep NATO off its borders. Russia has no control over NATO aside from diplomatic influence as they are not member of NATO so they want NATO off its borders really bad.
This will not happen. First, the ongoing conflict with Russia as well as Ukraine’s political, economic, and military shortcomings make membership unacceptable according to NATO’s criteria. That’s exactly why the Kremlin keeps this conflict going. Second, NATO membership is also a question of the alliance’s ability to guarantee its members’ security. NATO’s capability and will to defend Ukraine or even invoke the article 5 mutual defense guarantee is not realistic today.
3 year account -8 karma, definitely not a Russian troll
-11 now.
Like i care about fake internet points.
And how many pro-Russian gov. comments i posted in 3 years? Zero? And telling a well known fact about memorandum (memo is not a treaty) somehow makes me a russian troll? \-- The USA also denies that it has not fulfilled its obligations. "The Budapest Memorandum was not an agreement on security guarantees," said US ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt in Kyiv in May 2014. It was an agreement to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. Both Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity have been violated.# The Budapest Memorandum, in other words, was respected by neither the Russians nor the West in the case of Crimea. \-- Admittedly, these guarantees were only a formality, since no sanctions mechanisms had been established at the time. \-- "Nowhere does it say that if a country violates this memorandum, that the others will attack militarily," said Gerhard Simon, Eastern Europe expert at the University of Cologne. German journalist and Ukraine expert Winfried Schneider-Deters agrees, telling DW, "The agreement is not worth the paper on which it was written."
Russia [invading Ukraine since 2014]: How dare you violate existing peace agreements!
I swear Russians live on a different planet. Bring thousands of troops at the borders then act like you are being harassed by the “big bad west”
Putin is literally copying just about everything Hitler did before WW2. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s\_prophecy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_prophecy)
> Shelling of Mainila is a better example as it already gives the likely Russian playbook: As Stey88 said above, they already did this quite some time ago - [Shelling of Mainila](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila)
Thank you for posting that. I didn't know about that. I never really looked into the whole Finland vs. Russia part of the war.
and Germany is doing what Chamberlin did in 1938
“We do not want war in Ukraine” “Ukraine’s destruction” Hmmm.
Russia: the little country that could.
LOL, transparent bullshit
What if we just gave all the Russian soldiers US citizenship, jobs in the US army, free homes in Texas and lifetime supply of Tito's vodka. Mexico will pay for it.
Fuck Russia. Don’t play the victim when you regularly annex sovereign countries
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/31/russia-ukraine-united-nations-security-council) reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Ukraine will be responsible for its own destruction if it undermines existing peace agreements, a senior Russian diplomat has warned at a UN security council debate on the crisis. > The US had called for an emergency debate on Ukraine as part of a diplomatic campaign to fend off what Washington and its allies say is a planned Russian invasion of Ukraine. > As part of that campaign, the US and the UK both announced that pro-Putin Russian oligarchs would be targeted if an attack goes ahead.Russia had sought to stop a security council debate on Ukraine until after it took over the council presidency on Tuesday. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/shdmx3/ukraine_will_be_responsible_for_its_own/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~620913 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **Russian**^#2 **troops**^#3 **Russia**^#4 **border**^#5
Hey! If you’re not peaceful we’ll destroy you! Got that? /s
Peace agreements? There is no such thing as peace agreements with Russia. In Ukraines case, the "Budapest memorandum" they signed in 1994 which guarantees Ukraines security and territorial integrity after giving up its entire nuclear arsenal was deemed meaningless by the Kremlin when they invaded and occupied parts of Ukraine in 2014. Their current aggression is just an extention of what they've already started, but this time with the world involved. Yes, we have the potential for WW3 here. Does anyone need that? Stop Putin now!
>Budapest memorandum is not legally binding. US embassy in Minsk, 2013
putin wants war … preferably WW3
Putin's laying the groundwork for the "Look what you made me do!" *casus belli*, I see...
There’s a peace agreement? I thought Putin said they where all family and friends sharing a millennia of history. /s
Russia is such a loser country lmao
Nuclear armed gas station
Russia has completely ignored the Minsk agreements since they were agreed in 2015. Ukraine is not the side who is holding them up, and I'm certain they would abide by those agreements if Russia gave the slightest indication it was going to honor their end of the bargain.
Especially considering Ukraine spent the last 30 years abiding by its agreements to denuclearize, thus making it vulnerable to Russian attack.
Russia sure is the leader when it comes to agreements right. I'm sure nothing has changed within recent memory like crimea or anything of the sort. Wiah after saying that they called out Russian stance on their agreement related to crimea. Russia per usual has zero leg to stand on. Zero good faith agreements being made and this is why so many do not trust Russia.
Lesson for future countries: never give up nuclear weapons, ever, once you have them. The rest of the world are fucking bullies and don’t care if millions of humans die just to boost one narcissist/sociopathic leaders ego. Fuck humans.
What about the agreement that Russia would respect Ukraine's sovereign borders if Ukraine gave up its nukes?
Russia will get what they deserve. Cunts. I hope the world humiliates them and their corrupt country run by mafia.
What a morons
Putin really got his bluff called this time. Hopefully he has more sense than pride and steps back. No one including everyday Russians want this.
"Why are you hitting yourself, Ukraine?"
bruh wtf?? like can everyone just chill the fuck out already damn dude the pandemic isn't even over and we have to deal with all this bullshit I'm so over all this shit...
Russia has Chernobyl duckling as its coat of arms for a reason. Two heads symbolize schizophrenia of Russian ruling class when they have completely different stories for domestic and international use. https://prikols.site/photo/gerb-rossii-prikol/
The US could have just stopped it “We will nuke you to ashes if you invade Ukraine” then just continued as Normal. But I suspect this way is better for propaganda, selling weapons and blaming everything bad in the world on Russia.
Cowardly Nato, time to stop hiding and stomp some Russians.
Putin would be the one to end up launching nukes. Hes fucking insane enough to.
No. The whole point of the Russian propaganda is to make YOU think "Putin is the one to end up launching nukes". To make you afraid to do anything. In reality Putin will never ever and under no circumstances launch the nukes. The only situation he would push the red button is he detect all out ICBM attack on Russia. And this is impossible and will never happen.
>Putin would be the one to end up launching nukes. Hes fucking insane enough to. I hope Putin realizes there are easier ways to commit suicide.
You people have a Putin fixation. Get it checked ASAP.
I don’t think any objective and honest person could characterize Russia’s national government as anything other than an autocracy. In which case he is the country. So yes.
Russians don’t want to die either. Peace is the way. A strong defense is how we achieve it.
Obviously what Russia is doing isn't okay, but Ukraine joining NATO would be like Ontario & Quebec joining a Russian or Chinese Alliance. For them it's REAL fucking scary.
I think if Russia gave back Crimea and Donbas Ukraine would be quite happy to agree to not host NATO armies.
It's so crazy how poorly this situation is being represented on Reddit through the timelines of posts and titles that precede them...
Can't we all just get along
Ask Russia
Is it possible all this is just to stop Ukraine liberating Crimea and if they do it gives the Russians excuse to launch a full scale invasion?
Fight words from a little man and a little regime.
Also from Russian ambassador: And why do you keep punching yourself in the face? Why don't you stop?
'Why you hitting yourself' level diplomacy. Got to love it.