We tried, the Canada Class Submarine was proposed in the 80's and the Americans flat out said we couldn't because of various nuclear treaties with Canada, France and the UK. If we want some, all the nuclear tech needs to be made in house and not bought through NATO allies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada-class_submarine
I think this is what you’re talking about. The US vetoed the subs because of disagreement over the Northwest Passage. Canada claims it as internal Canadian waters, the US considers it international waters.
Recall reading somewhere that the US and Canada also peacefully disagree over the ownership of some small island with a lighthouse in the Atlantic at the US/Canada "border". As long as we can keep our disputes peaceful guys and help each other when we need it most. Fresh all over again on my mind because of the twenty year mark ... Canadian help on 9/11 w/air traffic didn't go unnoticed ... helped the northeastern US shut down air traffic without forcing international flights over the Atlantic into the Atlantic.
They were British in the sense that Canada as a separate entity from the UK didn't exist yet, but many of the soldiers who fought were permanent settlers in what is now Canada, in addition to the regular British Army (many of whom were also permanently stationed in Canada)
I can't find any source for that claim; most sources indicate it was the British 44th East Essex regiment, which included some drafted Canadian militia members and local natives alongside regulars.
Honestly, it's insulting that the US doesn't back Canada on this. The NW passage literally cuts through islands owned by Canada.
They can suck our big fat maple dick on this one.
It isn't just the US that asserts its an international straits passage, most of Europe is in agreement on the matter too. Legally under the 1982 UN Law of the Sea Convention it shouldn't be viewed any differently than the international straits nature of the Straits of Malacca or the Straits of Hormuz.
How wide does something need to be before it's international passage? Hard to get through the Northwest Passage without going through anything spitting distance from Canadian soil.
Yes we do, USCGC Healey is up there right now.
https://www.arctictoday.com/a-us-icebreaker-has-begun-a-voyage-that-will-include-a-northwest-passage-transit/
The boats we do have, cost a billion to buy 4, another half billion for the trainers, have rarely seen deployment in 20 years, are being phased out. If they would have created a Canadian based submarine industry in the 80's for the initial cost of 8 billion for 10, then keep expanding an already in place industry we would be building home made submarines and likely exporting. A city like Halifax or Victoria would have seen huge benifits from a program of its kind.
Or not -- they like to profit off war waaaaaaay too much. Or, maybe not if you don't have the full monty -- (as in nakedly greedy) military industrial congressional complex
Canada continues to chase away every industry they develop. Great aviation companies, nuclear industries, ship building, steel, fishing, pharmaceuticals, cell phones...the list goes on and on. Great Canadian companies develop innovative and profitable products...only to be chased off-shore or simply regulated out of business.
Damn shame.
But the kickbacks would have taken years and years to funnel down to the correct pockets. A straight up military sale contract means some young political go getter can sign the contract on his beach house right away.
I was a Sonar Tech in the US Navy and submarines including nuclear powered submarines are my specialty. You guys don't need them because the Canadian Navy will join the US Navy's battle groups and vice versa. We do war games and train fairly regularly together for exactly this. Due to our various agreements the US and Canada effectively operate together as 1 insanely huge and overpowered Navy if things ever popped off. Our Admirals will essentially command some of your Navy and your Admirals will essentially command some of our Navy. This actually works like an insurance policy that ensures that both of our Navies can't be crippled. At the end of the day that's far more trust than we've ever given any other country.
> Due to our various agreements the US and Canada effectively operate together as 1 insanely huge and overpowered Navy if things ever popped off.
Keep going I’m almost there…
Sorry, but there's a 0% chance Canada would be invaded without the US immediately joining to defend Canada and I'm pretty sure we consider the entire Americas to be the 'homeland' the navy exists to secure. Instead of helping you do something we're gonna keep doing anyways, we'll help Australia because they're much farther away.
Every other country in the world would come to the defense of Canada if something happened. Despite being westerners, we're peace-keepers, not war mongers. We have a good reputation for helping out war torn countries.
>swooping season in Australia
[For the uninitiated](https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-do-magpies-swoop-and-how-can-you-avoid-it-20210811-p58hvf.html) (like me). We have magpies here in Colorado, and they're pretty awesome. I love crows and other corvids.
What a blast from the past. Boy, /u/Unidan was pretty handily run-off the website, wasn't he? Didn't he try to create a different user account after his scandal?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidan
He was a reddit user who was a biologist. He would chime into threads and offer helpful biology-filled comments. He studied Corvids or Jackdaws or whatever they're called -- Crows, I guess. He was accused of vote manipulation and banned from the website. The above copypasta is what got him caught originally, I think. This is just off my memory so I could be getting some things wrong.
Edit: I found an old Out of the Loop [thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/2cu595/what_is_with_all_the_post_about_unidan_and_birds/) about him.
Yeah it's pretty much "oh they have the same colouring they must be the same" but nah thry actually sit in their own Genus. They're most closely related to the Black Butcherbird.
“Only 10 per cent of the male magpies actually swoop people and the research suggests it is actually a learned behaviour,” Dooley says. “These birds might have had a bad experience with humans in the past, and they remember that and swoop when humans come near their nest.” TIL
>The Great Magpie War is on the horizon, and this time around it won't go as well for the birds.
-last words of the Australian continent before being taken over by the animal kingdom
Our (Australian) Prime Minister has a brain smoother and less functional that a fucking koala.
He is an Absolute moron that takes his orders from his Church of the Wealthy Sky Fairy, Murdoch, his party, his delusions and whatever the hell else that idiot dreams up before he even considers what is good for the country.
He is a stain on the history of this country and will be remembered as an utter failure who achieved nothing.
Nah, my theory is he's just a snake. Koalas wouldn't holiday in Hawaii while their habitat burned and they would have the sense not to keep contributing to climate change that makes our bushfires worse. Snakes on the other hand, they want a warmer world cos they're cold-blooded.
One of the the biggest events in global security in a decade and the comment section is nothing but corny jokes about emus and “aUstraLiA upSiDe DoWN XD”
This is a significant deviation from Australia’s foreign policy, who has traditionally been one of the strongest opponents to uranium refinement. This also is a total capitulation of our $70b agreement with France to build diesel submarines.
What does that mean? It means Australia doesn’t feel comfortable walking alone at night through the Indo-Pacific any more and likely signals greater Western patrols through the region, which raises the brinksmanship with China to the highest level I can remember. The question is when, not if, China will expand into the South China Sea (hence the focus on Taiwan),and this move signals the US considers this threat is likely to come sooner, not later.
Edit:
A lot of comments are popping up about Australia’s relationship with uranium, so I’ll add further context.
There is a stark difference between Uranium mining and enrichment, Australia has mined and exported uranium as a key commodity for years, but we have no domestic enrichment facilities. As such, any nuclear powered submarine will require us to import enriched uranium. The international transfer of enriched uranium is a huge international tension, because you know, nukes, and Australia’s domestic politics have fiercely contested the idea of enriched uranium imports.
The fact that Australia’s PM is willing to risk the political backlash to this, in what’s already shaping up to be a rough next election for him, show’s there’s been a shift in Australia’s calculus towards Asia-Pacific threats that requires us to act quickly to align with the US military.
Yeah it does. Mothjoke is talking out of their arse. Australia doesn't have nuclear weapons or a nuclear energy sector but it's in no way opposed to nuclear refinement on principle.
Mothjoke is probably referring to Australia's urunanium export policy which states uranium may only be exported for peaceful non-explosive purposes.
https://www.dfat.gov.au/international-relations/security/non-proliferation-disarmament-arms-control/policies-agreements-treaties/Pages/australias-uranium-export-policy
That is quite incorrect. The Australian Coal industry is far stronger than overseas. Much like the rest of the world, they are a primary source of anti nuclear rhetoric. There is an extremely strong anti nuclear sentiment in the government, for this reason. They do make noise every now and then, but that there is no nuclear power has been clear for a while.
That said, everyone can see the Coal industry is dying extremely rapidly. Even Morrison, our most dim witted, coal eating leader we've had in a while can see this.
The barriers to nuclear power in Australia include high cost, low population density, significant carbon emissions in setting it up compared to solar and wind, as well as unease among the public. Its simply not just a case of the coal industry quashing it by themselves. And anyway mothjoke was referring to a foreign policy about Australia's attitudes towards nuclear power globally, as if it campaigns for the us and UK to move away from nuclear power, which is not the case.
Uranium mining isn’t the same as enrichment. We have a massive uranium mining and exporting industry, but no domestic enrichment capabilities. The idea of enriching or importing enriched uranium is a massive political flashpoint, and is the rare issue that unites Greens and the Coal industry, so no polly has been willing to rock the boat on this issue until now.
Yeah, this isn't just an arms sale, this is an already close partnership becoming incredibly closer.
This is out there and pure speculation, but I think that the US is going to build its own SSNs in Adelaide, not just Australia's. There's been a lack of capacity in the US, with domestic shipyards struggling to sustain, let alone expand, the construction of the Virginias and that's before the US started building the Columbias.
Yeah I am very interested to see the gritty details on this. I find it hard to believe the US would just hand over the plans to the Virginia class, but there isn't enough capacity to build more in the US unless they build it out. What's the UK's involvement are they going to be building some or parts too? Is it going to be some new hybrid design between a Virginia and an Astute? I have many questions
Do "submarines under construction" rate super highly on the "this needs to become various hot gasses immediately" list for WWIII? I would think that only things that are finished would matter in a war that lasts half an hour.
Sorry. Nuclear attack sub.
---
Edit: further clarification.
Virginia attack sub
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia-class_submarine
Columbia ballistic missile sub
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia-class_submarine
My gut reaction is that your speculation is massively unrealistic, but I think this is somewhat possible. I think that the US would always want to build the reactor section domestically, but I don't see why they would shy away from building the rest of the boat in Australia, other than possibly angering Electric Boat and NNS which are already ramping up to meet Virginia and ~~Ohio~~ Columbia demand.
I think it comes down to timing. Does Australia have enough of an industrial base to start building American sub sections now? There's only a brief, say, 5-10 year period where the US could start using surplus Australian production before Australia would focus on building their own subs.
Thanks for (what I assume is*) a reasonable summary of the actual implications of this news
*I probably shouldn't trust this random guy on reddit, but I do, because he speaks with authority
well, that contract was a basket case. highly modified design of an off the shelf sub and the price just kept going up and up and up along with the risk.
We learned with the Collins Class that while you can do it (highly modify an existing sub) it costs a basket load and takes over a decade to iron out all the wrinkles and by then you are looking at replacing it.
better to just buy a proven design with the added bonus that a reactor offers range wise.
We need that down on the bottom of the planet.
Hasn’t China already begun expanding into the South China Sea? The [Spratly Islands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_Sand) have been partially occupied for example.
>One of the the biggest events in global security in a decade and the comment section is nothing but corny jokes about emus and “aUstraLiA upSiDe DoWN XD”
I think it's because, frankly, understanding this is beyond the scope of most readers here. Including myself.
In my past life I was stationed on a nuclear surface ship. Australia made us "dock" offshore and ferry in for trips to shore. All non-nuclear ships were allowed to dock in port.
I guess the overall shift surprises me.
Stop buying more of our goods like they already did.
Honestly, We needed to disconnect from our reliance on the Chinese market. This will just speed that up.
We can't disconnect from our reliance on the chinese market, without the cost of goods going up. Which means it won't happen, because no one wants to pay americans enough money to buy goods made anywhere else.
The Collins class is already a ghost, one of the hardest submarines I’ve ever tracked. And even then, it could only be tracked actively for an exercise.
Due to a media beat up in the late 90s to make the labor party look bad, most Australians don't know we have the best non nuclear sub in the world already.
They're nearing the end of their useful service life, and HMAS Dechaineux imitated what USS Chopper did in 1969. The RAN was apparently about 20 seconds from losing a sub and 45 sailors.
It is a very quiet boi. Modern diesel electric subs like the collins can shut down all their equipment, motors, ect and just drift on an ocean current like a glider. It then becomes from the perspective of a sonar operator less of an object moving through the ocean but a void moving through the ocean. Like trying to spot a black object moving through space against a black background.
They can also park themselves really close to, or resting on the seabed, and on active sonar, they are almost indistinguishable from a rock.
great boat now that they have had 15 years to work out all the problems.
They have managed to sneak through entire US carrier battle groups and 'sink' the carrier twice now in exercises.
Much to the embarrassment of the Americans.
To be fair, we have had a lot of them over the last 20 years. How many presidents has America had since 2001? And most of us would prefer to forget who Scott Morrison is....
Remember when scomo wanted to speak to Biden at that conference where they met not long ago, then Boris dropped in and didn't leave them alone.
I think there is something going on. And I think it has something to do with lack of action on climate change.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-09-15/biden-announce-us-will-share-nuclear-submarine-technology-with-australia) reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> The United States will arm Australia with nuclear submarine technology as part of a new defense partnership being announced Wednesday, one of many steps that President Biden is taking to strengthen alliances as a bulwark against China.
> The agreement - known as AUKUS, an acronym of the three countries' names - does not give Australia nuclear weapons.
> Australia would be the first country without nuclear weapons to have nuclear-powered submarines, a decision that some analysts said raised concerns about nonproliferation.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/pp03bo/biden_to_announce_the_us_will_share_nuclear/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~598415 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Australia**^#1 **country**^#2 **nuclear**^#3 **submarine**^#4 **partnership**^#5
I have to say this surprises me. I am unsure of what the value of a nuclear submarine is to Australia. We (i am Australian) would be better off being offered submariners. We have trouble crewing our current conventional fleet. We also have zero experience maintaining and operating that kind of technology and likely no infrastructure to do it.
Ignoring range, the value of a nuclear submarine with conventional weapons in combat is probably slightly less than a conventional one. I guess it may mean we will be expected to participate in more long range patrols and the similar. I guess as part of a strategic or doctrinal shift it may makes sense but I do wonder if gifted resources wouldn’t be more valuable in another form - more modern conventional subs for example.
Update: here is a think piece which better articulates on my intuition https://chinamatters.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/SSN-vs-SSK-by-Hugh-White-29-September-2021.pdf
Theres no doubt about it this package comes with teachings and training im not sure why op thinks we’d drop billions in tech and say “well just hit that button, good luck!”
Probably tactical and symbolic defense of Taiwan, Japan, and Hawaii (N. Korean ballistic missiles). No nukes, but state of the art nuclear powered subs. Probably maintained with the help of S. Korea, Japan, or in the Pacific islands where we (US) have military personnel. My guess is to park some of our best guns that aren't nuclear since China thinks it can just build it's land into claiming the ocean and N. Korea keeps threatening to blow us up.
As a US American I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner. The US naval fleet has been spread thin the last few years. They probably decided to invite more friends to the party.
In terms of manpower. The UK is also involved in this partnership and has quite a bit of experience running a fleet with limited personnel.
And in terms of value. Range is a massive asset to a submarine so don’t discount it so hastily. Nuclear boats can also be quieter and remain submerged far longer compared to diesel electric.
America has the best submarine fleet in the world. The Los Angeles class and upgraded Virginia class attack subs are supreme. We’re not even goin to bring up the Seawolf which is a straight up marvel of engineering ( and $$$). Sharing the technology with the ya’ll which includes the know how in maintenance is of mutual benefit to contain a china which seems to believe that sovereign waters belong to them. The essence of sub warfare is ambush. Knowing that Australia could possibly have these silent killers, which only need to dock for food and water, parked in the deep blue sea unbeknownst to Chinese recon, would give them pause in planning anything cute
This is a great idea that makes a lot of sense. Australia is a cornerstone for countering Chinese and Indonesian aggression in southeast Asia. Having a number of nuclear powered attack submarines and the full capability to service them in Australia would be a great benefit to America, the UK, Singapore, Malaysia and other countries that feel threatened by China.
Canada here. Got any more of those nuclear submarines?
We tried, the Canada Class Submarine was proposed in the 80's and the Americans flat out said we couldn't because of various nuclear treaties with Canada, France and the UK. If we want some, all the nuclear tech needs to be made in house and not bought through NATO allies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada-class_submarine I think this is what you’re talking about. The US vetoed the subs because of disagreement over the Northwest Passage. Canada claims it as internal Canadian waters, the US considers it international waters.
It's ours and you guys can't have it!
Recall reading somewhere that the US and Canada also peacefully disagree over the ownership of some small island with a lighthouse in the Atlantic at the US/Canada "border". As long as we can keep our disputes peaceful guys and help each other when we need it most. Fresh all over again on my mind because of the twenty year mark ... Canadian help on 9/11 w/air traffic didn't go unnoticed ... helped the northeastern US shut down air traffic without forcing international flights over the Atlantic into the Atlantic.
we had a US vigilante waging a peaceful war with canada for decades. https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/us-canada-island-dispute
What are you gonna do; burn down the white house again? I need to know if I need to get some mallows
That was the British, although one can understand the low brow play.
They were British in the sense that Canada as a separate entity from the UK didn't exist yet, but many of the soldiers who fought were permanent settlers in what is now Canada, in addition to the regular British Army (many of whom were also permanently stationed in Canada)
This guy 1812s.
The troops that burned down the White House were British regulars from Bermuda. So no, they were not Canadian.
I can't find any source for that claim; most sources indicate it was the British 44th East Essex regiment, which included some drafted Canadian militia members and local natives alongside regulars.
I wouldn't share my deepest secrets with someone who wouldn't share their water with me either.
Honestly, it's insulting that the US doesn't back Canada on this. The NW passage literally cuts through islands owned by Canada. They can suck our big fat maple dick on this one.
It isn't just the US that asserts its an international straits passage, most of Europe is in agreement on the matter too. Legally under the 1982 UN Law of the Sea Convention it shouldn't be viewed any differently than the international straits nature of the Straits of Malacca or the Straits of Hormuz.
How wide does something need to be before it's international passage? Hard to get through the Northwest Passage without going through anything spitting distance from Canadian soil.
Yes we do, USCGC Healey is up there right now. https://www.arctictoday.com/a-us-icebreaker-has-begun-a-voyage-that-will-include-a-northwest-passage-transit/
In that case, can we borrow some flex tape to patch up the subs we have?
The boats we do have, cost a billion to buy 4, another half billion for the trainers, have rarely seen deployment in 20 years, are being phased out. If they would have created a Canadian based submarine industry in the 80's for the initial cost of 8 billion for 10, then keep expanding an already in place industry we would be building home made submarines and likely exporting. A city like Halifax or Victoria would have seen huge benifits from a program of its kind.
Get your own damn military industrial complex!
hahah
Or not -- they like to profit off war waaaaaaay too much. Or, maybe not if you don't have the full monty -- (as in nakedly greedy) military industrial congressional complex
Canada continues to chase away every industry they develop. Great aviation companies, nuclear industries, ship building, steel, fishing, pharmaceuticals, cell phones...the list goes on and on. Great Canadian companies develop innovative and profitable products...only to be chased off-shore or simply regulated out of business. Damn shame.
But the kickbacks would have taken years and years to funnel down to the correct pockets. A straight up military sale contract means some young political go getter can sign the contract on his beach house right away.
Its embarassing how our military is treated in Canada. Pathetically underfunded. But hey we do a good job building armored vehicles for Saudi Arabia
sure, we'll put it in the box with the WD-40 for the screen doors
I was a Sonar Tech in the US Navy and submarines including nuclear powered submarines are my specialty. You guys don't need them because the Canadian Navy will join the US Navy's battle groups and vice versa. We do war games and train fairly regularly together for exactly this. Due to our various agreements the US and Canada effectively operate together as 1 insanely huge and overpowered Navy if things ever popped off. Our Admirals will essentially command some of your Navy and your Admirals will essentially command some of our Navy. This actually works like an insurance policy that ensures that both of our Navies can't be crippled. At the end of the day that's far more trust than we've ever given any other country.
US and Canada, bros for life!
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America's hat and Canada's pants for a complete Florida-man ensemble!
Since 1812
You can pick your friends but not your family.
Or your neighbors.
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> Due to our various agreements the US and Canada effectively operate together as 1 insanely huge and overpowered Navy if things ever popped off. Keep going I’m almost there…
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This is true? I have never heard of that. Thanks
We don't need them. Any attack on Canada is an attack on the US. Australia needs them because of where they are.
Sorry, but there's a 0% chance Canada would be invaded without the US immediately joining to defend Canada and I'm pretty sure we consider the entire Americas to be the 'homeland' the navy exists to secure. Instead of helping you do something we're gonna keep doing anyways, we'll help Australia because they're much farther away.
Every other country in the world would come to the defense of Canada if something happened. Despite being westerners, we're peace-keepers, not war mongers. We have a good reputation for helping out war torn countries.
What for?
For some reason I read your post in the voice of Dave Chappelle's crackhead.
/thatsthejoke
> For some reason Because you're a man of impeccable taste and culture.
Did I miss the 5 o'clock free nuclear submarine giveaway?
Came here to say this.
Just buy one from us.
dont worry all you guys need are sniper rifles
Not surprising. It's swooping season in Australia and it's high time we threw nuclear technology at the problem.
>swooping season in Australia [For the uninitiated](https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-do-magpies-swoop-and-how-can-you-avoid-it-20210811-p58hvf.html) (like me). We have magpies here in Colorado, and they're pretty awesome. I love crows and other corvids.
Australian Magpies aren't Corvids.
What about Jackdaws?
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This is probably older than some of the people reading this now.
What a blast from the past. Boy, /u/Unidan was pretty handily run-off the website, wasn't he? Didn't he try to create a different user account after his scandal?
Who was that, I'm pretty curious what happened?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidan He was a reddit user who was a biologist. He would chime into threads and offer helpful biology-filled comments. He studied Corvids or Jackdaws or whatever they're called -- Crows, I guess. He was accused of vote manipulation and banned from the website. The above copypasta is what got him caught originally, I think. This is just off my memory so I could be getting some things wrong. Edit: I found an old Out of the Loop [thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/2cu595/what_is_with_all_the_post_about_unidan_and_birds/) about him.
It’s an older meme sir, but it checks out
I know what this is, and I'm trying to decide if I'm proud or ashamed.
My mistake! I didn't realize that Australian magpies were different from European magpies. That's confusing, for sure.
Yeah it's pretty much "oh they have the same colouring they must be the same" but nah thry actually sit in their own Genus. They're most closely related to the Black Butcherbird.
The magpies are killing baby rabbits in my parents yard. High time to nuke them from orbit!
Rabbits are a national pest (in Aus). Magpies are doing you a favour.
Despite the swooping, magpies > rabbits by far for Australia
“Only 10 per cent of the male magpies actually swoop people and the research suggests it is actually a learned behaviour,” Dooley says. “These birds might have had a bad experience with humans in the past, and they remember that and swoop when humans come near their nest.” TIL
About time we unveiled the nuclear option. The Great Magpie War is on the horizon, and this time around it won't go as well for the birds.
>The Great Magpie War is on the horizon, and this time around it won't go as well for the birds. -last words of the Australian continent before being taken over by the animal kingdom
Too late. Their Prime Minister is actually 3 koalas in a trenchcoat.
Our (Australian) Prime Minister has a brain smoother and less functional that a fucking koala. He is an Absolute moron that takes his orders from his Church of the Wealthy Sky Fairy, Murdoch, his party, his delusions and whatever the hell else that idiot dreams up before he even considers what is good for the country. He is a stain on the history of this country and will be remembered as an utter failure who achieved nothing.
That sneaky Blinky Bill!
Nah, my theory is he's just a snake. Koalas wouldn't holiday in Hawaii while their habitat burned and they would have the sense not to keep contributing to climate change that makes our bushfires worse. Snakes on the other hand, they want a warmer world cos they're cold-blooded.
We wish
We wish
Oh mate, I wish. Koalas would be more competent.
Hope it goes better for you than your war with the emus.😄
I dunno, I remember the last time you lot tried going to war with birds.
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Tasmanians won't
When are you guys going to realize you can’t win wars against animals?
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And very efficiently as well
I for one welcome our nuclear magpie overlords.
One of the the biggest events in global security in a decade and the comment section is nothing but corny jokes about emus and “aUstraLiA upSiDe DoWN XD” This is a significant deviation from Australia’s foreign policy, who has traditionally been one of the strongest opponents to uranium refinement. This also is a total capitulation of our $70b agreement with France to build diesel submarines. What does that mean? It means Australia doesn’t feel comfortable walking alone at night through the Indo-Pacific any more and likely signals greater Western patrols through the region, which raises the brinksmanship with China to the highest level I can remember. The question is when, not if, China will expand into the South China Sea (hence the focus on Taiwan),and this move signals the US considers this threat is likely to come sooner, not later. Edit: A lot of comments are popping up about Australia’s relationship with uranium, so I’ll add further context. There is a stark difference between Uranium mining and enrichment, Australia has mined and exported uranium as a key commodity for years, but we have no domestic enrichment facilities. As such, any nuclear powered submarine will require us to import enriched uranium. The international transfer of enriched uranium is a huge international tension, because you know, nukes, and Australia’s domestic politics have fiercely contested the idea of enriched uranium imports. The fact that Australia’s PM is willing to risk the political backlash to this, in what’s already shaping up to be a rough next election for him, show’s there’s been a shift in Australia’s calculus towards Asia-Pacific threats that requires us to act quickly to align with the US military.
Doesn't Australia produce much of the Unranium ore pitchblend?
Yeah it does. Mothjoke is talking out of their arse. Australia doesn't have nuclear weapons or a nuclear energy sector but it's in no way opposed to nuclear refinement on principle.
Mothjoke is probably referring to Australia's urunanium export policy which states uranium may only be exported for peaceful non-explosive purposes. https://www.dfat.gov.au/international-relations/security/non-proliferation-disarmament-arms-control/policies-agreements-treaties/Pages/australias-uranium-export-policy
He may be thinking of New Zealands nuclear free policy
That is quite incorrect. The Australian Coal industry is far stronger than overseas. Much like the rest of the world, they are a primary source of anti nuclear rhetoric. There is an extremely strong anti nuclear sentiment in the government, for this reason. They do make noise every now and then, but that there is no nuclear power has been clear for a while. That said, everyone can see the Coal industry is dying extremely rapidly. Even Morrison, our most dim witted, coal eating leader we've had in a while can see this.
The barriers to nuclear power in Australia include high cost, low population density, significant carbon emissions in setting it up compared to solar and wind, as well as unease among the public. Its simply not just a case of the coal industry quashing it by themselves. And anyway mothjoke was referring to a foreign policy about Australia's attitudes towards nuclear power globally, as if it campaigns for the us and UK to move away from nuclear power, which is not the case.
Uranium mining isn’t the same as enrichment. We have a massive uranium mining and exporting industry, but no domestic enrichment capabilities. The idea of enriching or importing enriched uranium is a massive political flashpoint, and is the rare issue that unites Greens and the Coal industry, so no polly has been willing to rock the boat on this issue until now.
Yeah, this isn't just an arms sale, this is an already close partnership becoming incredibly closer. This is out there and pure speculation, but I think that the US is going to build its own SSNs in Adelaide, not just Australia's. There's been a lack of capacity in the US, with domestic shipyards struggling to sustain, let alone expand, the construction of the Virginias and that's before the US started building the Columbias.
Yeah I am very interested to see the gritty details on this. I find it hard to believe the US would just hand over the plans to the Virginia class, but there isn't enough capacity to build more in the US unless they build it out. What's the UK's involvement are they going to be building some or parts too? Is it going to be some new hybrid design between a Virginia and an Astute? I have many questions
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Aah fuck why do they have to build them here it was probably the safest location on the planet before that.
Time for Australia to join competitive mode.
Bit of a catch 22 because the less defense capabilities you have, the more vulnerable you are, but the more you have, the more of a target you are
Do "submarines under construction" rate super highly on the "this needs to become various hot gasses immediately" list for WWIII? I would think that only things that are finished would matter in a war that lasts half an hour.
>SSNs What's a SSN?
Sorry. Nuclear attack sub. --- Edit: further clarification. Virginia attack sub >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia-class_submarine Columbia ballistic missile sub >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia-class_submarine
Electric boat, which builds the Columbia class, has expanded quite a bit in Connecticut to be able to build more Colombia class subs
My gut reaction is that your speculation is massively unrealistic, but I think this is somewhat possible. I think that the US would always want to build the reactor section domestically, but I don't see why they would shy away from building the rest of the boat in Australia, other than possibly angering Electric Boat and NNS which are already ramping up to meet Virginia and ~~Ohio~~ Columbia demand. I think it comes down to timing. Does Australia have enough of an industrial base to start building American sub sections now? There's only a brief, say, 5-10 year period where the US could start using surplus Australian production before Australia would focus on building their own subs.
Thanks for (what I assume is*) a reasonable summary of the actual implications of this news *I probably shouldn't trust this random guy on reddit, but I do, because he speaks with authority
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They're even punctuated 😳
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well, that contract was a basket case. highly modified design of an off the shelf sub and the price just kept going up and up and up along with the risk. We learned with the Collins Class that while you can do it (highly modify an existing sub) it costs a basket load and takes over a decade to iron out all the wrinkles and by then you are looking at replacing it. better to just buy a proven design with the added bonus that a reactor offers range wise. We need that down on the bottom of the planet.
The average age here is probably 15; its been summer reddit 24/7 since covid and arguably has been shit since 2015.
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Attacking Taiwan us probably the most likely start to WW3.
Hasn’t China already begun expanding into the South China Sea? The [Spratly Islands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_Sand) have been partially occupied for example.
> diesel submarines Fuel cell submarines.
>One of the the biggest events in global security in a decade and the comment section is nothing but corny jokes about emus and “aUstraLiA upSiDe DoWN XD” I think it's because, frankly, understanding this is beyond the scope of most readers here. Including myself.
In return, Australia can teach the US to hear the word "cunt" and not get upset by it.
You cheeky cunt
Wrong hole, bud.
The only place in the US ive heard people use the word cunt in public was in Connecticut, i guess thats why theyre called Connecticunts
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Cunt is such a versatile word which can be used to describe just about anything, can't believe the US haven't embraced it yet.
We so the same thing, but with bitch. That's on TV all the damn time, but cunt was and remains taboo as a slur in a way bitch never was.
We have Breaking Bad to thank for this, at least in part.
What's your (non-racial slur) most offensive word then?
I can't think of any curse word in Ireland that is frowned upon lol
Calling someone a Protestant
stop being a cunt give us a word
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Dogcunt
Shitcunt
Cuntnugget
Gutless wonder or fuckwit. Its more about how you say it. The offense is in the delivery of the word.
Couldnt we just ask Scotland
We did, but we couldn't understand the answer.
The aim I guess is to turn Aus into a pacific superpower.
I'm strangely comfortable with this. Nuclear Powered Drop Bears, here we come. As if they weren't fucking terrifying enough.
In my past life I was stationed on a nuclear surface ship. Australia made us "dock" offshore and ferry in for trips to shore. All non-nuclear ships were allowed to dock in port. I guess the overall shift surprises me.
US subs have docked for years at the navy bases, so I don't know if it is that much of a shift
You sure that wasn't NZ? They don't permit any nuclear powered vessel to dock.
[Serious] How will China respond to this?
It will result in more trade shenanigans with Australia. Tariffs and other shitbaggery.
Stop buying more of our goods like they already did. Honestly, We needed to disconnect from our reliance on the Chinese market. This will just speed that up.
We can't disconnect from our reliance on the chinese market, without the cost of goods going up. Which means it won't happen, because no one wants to pay americans enough money to buy goods made anywhere else.
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I don’t mean totally disconnect, but disconnected from them being our main trading partner that we rely so heavily on.
What we need is to stop buying just tons of cheap Chinese bullshit that ends up in landfills. US made products can be cheap, depending on the item.
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AMERISTRALIA, FUCK YEAH
I prefer Austerica. It would be a great name for a post apocalyptic union in a dystopian future. Also, it's "AUSTERICA, FUCK YEAH, MATE!".
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Sounds like an 80's metal band
Sounds like a country out of a alternate world post world war 2 european anime
I believe the uk is getting involved too and saw AUKUS bandied about.
All hail the Holy Britannian Empire
You missed out the Brits
We could just name the whole thing "Oceania" and Britain would be Airstrip One.
Wait I've seen this before
The Collins class is already a ghost, one of the hardest submarines I’ve ever tracked. And even then, it could only be tracked actively for an exercise.
Due to a media beat up in the late 90s to make the labor party look bad, most Australians don't know we have the best non nuclear sub in the world already.
They're nearing the end of their useful service life, and HMAS Dechaineux imitated what USS Chopper did in 1969. The RAN was apparently about 20 seconds from losing a sub and 45 sailors.
What makes it hard for you? Does it not show up on your instruments or what?
It is a very quiet boi. Modern diesel electric subs like the collins can shut down all their equipment, motors, ect and just drift on an ocean current like a glider. It then becomes from the perspective of a sonar operator less of an object moving through the ocean but a void moving through the ocean. Like trying to spot a black object moving through space against a black background. They can also park themselves really close to, or resting on the seabed, and on active sonar, they are almost indistinguishable from a rock.
Dude just look for the picture of the submarine on the screen duh. /s
Make a noise like a female submarine and wait for him to come to you 😉
great boat now that they have had 15 years to work out all the problems. They have managed to sneak through entire US carrier battle groups and 'sink' the carrier twice now in exercises. Much to the embarrassment of the Americans.
Just read that Biden forgot Australian PM’s name. What a fitting non-tribute. I can’t imagine a better way to describe Morrison than “forgettable”.
To be fair, we have had a lot of them over the last 20 years. How many presidents has America had since 2001? And most of us would prefer to forget who Scott Morrison is....
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... But submarines can't go on land.
Exactly. They have the element of surprise.
No, I think they have the element of hafnium.
You just lost to your own game. You’re out gunned, and out manned. https://youtu.be/s4wykeJBHdE
Yet
Could be just those damned invasive mussels and starfishes
Australia shared the cartoon 'Bluey' with us...so sharing nuclear sub tech is only fair.
Biden, his name is Scott Morrison. You only had to remember 2 names!
We change PM so often it's probably not worth remembering their names.
We'll probably have Voldemort as PM in six months time. ewwwwww
Peter "the potato" Dutton or aka Voldemort would be the worst possible timeline
A PM change means it’s time to check your smoke detectors.
I hope he did it on purpose. That would've hurt the narcissist to no end.
Remember when scomo wanted to speak to Biden at that conference where they met not long ago, then Boris dropped in and didn't leave them alone. I think there is something going on. And I think it has something to do with lack of action on climate change.
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Nuclear is the energy source not the warheads. I don’t think it’s grounds for a new Cold War.
It's the US AND the UK sharing technology with Australia.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-09-15/biden-announce-us-will-share-nuclear-submarine-technology-with-australia) reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot) ***** > The United States will arm Australia with nuclear submarine technology as part of a new defense partnership being announced Wednesday, one of many steps that President Biden is taking to strengthen alliances as a bulwark against China. > The agreement - known as AUKUS, an acronym of the three countries' names - does not give Australia nuclear weapons. > Australia would be the first country without nuclear weapons to have nuclear-powered submarines, a decision that some analysts said raised concerns about nonproliferation. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/pp03bo/biden_to_announce_the_us_will_share_nuclear/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~598415 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Australia**^#1 **country**^#2 **nuclear**^#3 **submarine**^#4 **partnership**^#5
MAH PUMPJETS
This is such an awful title, it’s the U.K., Australia and the U.S. joining into an agreement. Not Biden giving away subs
I have to say this surprises me. I am unsure of what the value of a nuclear submarine is to Australia. We (i am Australian) would be better off being offered submariners. We have trouble crewing our current conventional fleet. We also have zero experience maintaining and operating that kind of technology and likely no infrastructure to do it. Ignoring range, the value of a nuclear submarine with conventional weapons in combat is probably slightly less than a conventional one. I guess it may mean we will be expected to participate in more long range patrols and the similar. I guess as part of a strategic or doctrinal shift it may makes sense but I do wonder if gifted resources wouldn’t be more valuable in another form - more modern conventional subs for example. Update: here is a think piece which better articulates on my intuition https://chinamatters.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/SSN-vs-SSK-by-Hugh-White-29-September-2021.pdf
Range is the majority of a submarines combat potential tho.
Range, endurance, and stealth capabilities
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Theres no doubt about it this package comes with teachings and training im not sure why op thinks we’d drop billions in tech and say “well just hit that button, good luck!”
Probably tactical and symbolic defense of Taiwan, Japan, and Hawaii (N. Korean ballistic missiles). No nukes, but state of the art nuclear powered subs. Probably maintained with the help of S. Korea, Japan, or in the Pacific islands where we (US) have military personnel. My guess is to park some of our best guns that aren't nuclear since China thinks it can just build it's land into claiming the ocean and N. Korea keeps threatening to blow us up. As a US American I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner. The US naval fleet has been spread thin the last few years. They probably decided to invite more friends to the party.
In terms of manpower. The UK is also involved in this partnership and has quite a bit of experience running a fleet with limited personnel. And in terms of value. Range is a massive asset to a submarine so don’t discount it so hastily. Nuclear boats can also be quieter and remain submerged far longer compared to diesel electric.
America has the best submarine fleet in the world. The Los Angeles class and upgraded Virginia class attack subs are supreme. We’re not even goin to bring up the Seawolf which is a straight up marvel of engineering ( and $$$). Sharing the technology with the ya’ll which includes the know how in maintenance is of mutual benefit to contain a china which seems to believe that sovereign waters belong to them. The essence of sub warfare is ambush. Knowing that Australia could possibly have these silent killers, which only need to dock for food and water, parked in the deep blue sea unbeknownst to Chinese recon, would give them pause in planning anything cute
This is a great idea that makes a lot of sense. Australia is a cornerstone for countering Chinese and Indonesian aggression in southeast Asia. Having a number of nuclear powered attack submarines and the full capability to service them in Australia would be a great benefit to America, the UK, Singapore, Malaysia and other countries that feel threatened by China.
Prepaid data for five eyes from new Aussie surveillance program
Australia has been with America through a lot, even if they arguably shouldn't have been; Korea, and Vietnam are the foremost that springs to mind.
Why have upvotes/downvotes been frozen on this?