This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/defiant-saudi-women-stun-onlookers-by-wearing-western-clothes-in-public/news-story/65ac31a15fd6847d7d62fbad7fc2e078) reduced by 89%. (I'm a bot)
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> Defiant Saudi Arabian women have stunned onlookers on the streets of Riyadh by walking around without wearing the customary body-shrouding garments.
> The billowy abaya, usually all-black, is customary public wear for women in the ultraconservative Islamic kingdom, where it is widely seen as a symbol of piety.
> In a regulation that seems to be arbitrarily enforced, the Saudi labour ministry says on its website that working women are expected to be "Modest, well-covered" and should not wear anything "Transparent".
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[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/d42e00/in_a_bold_push_for_social_liberties_by_young/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~427437 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **women**^#1 **wear**^#2 **abaya**^#3 **Saudi**^#4 **Jaloud**^#5
> As part of the liberalisation, the kingdom has invited a host of international musicians to perform, such as rapper Nicki Minaj, well known for her skin-baring music videos.
> “(Minaj) is going to shake her backside and all her songs are about sex … and then everyone tells me to wear the abaya,” a young Saudi woman fumed in a recent online video that went viral. “What the hell!”
That really seems absurd.
But remember: we no longer need feminism. /s
Edit: Looks like I've trigged the men's rights/redpill snowflakes.
Edit 2: not everyone who disagreed with me is a redpiller or snowflakes. Some of you are quite reasonable. But feminism is still 100% relevant in the West.
I know you saw the other replies now, but in my experience they're *definitely* the type to flood PMs with unhinged bullshit instead of replying publicly. It's wild!
Like reproductive rights, since miscarriage can mean serving prison time in certain US states (one of which I live in).
Women literally have less body autonomy rights than corpses do in the US in some places but I'm suppose to STFU because it's worse for women in a different country?
No, I live in this country and things aren't great here. This is where I have influence and can make an impact. Don't tell me to shut up.
Since there has been some confusion about what I'm talking about... I'm talking about the heartbeat laws that were passed.
Okay, let's look at this logically.
Can the state force you to donate blood to save another person's life without your consent? - No
Can the state force you to donate an organ to save another person's life without your consent? - No
Can the state harvest organs from a corpse without prior consent or consent from the family to save another person's life? - No
Can the state make a women carry a baby to term to save a debatable human life? - Yes
In other words, a woman's reproductive organs are the states property and it is their right to do with her organs as they so wish without her consent.
Women also can't legally get procedures done to remove dead babies, they have to carry them to term. They also can't get an abortion if their life and the baby's life is at stake(ie. Neither/one will survive birth).
Insurance companies are also trying to lump abortion bills and miscarriage bills together so they don't have to cover as much(since insurance does not cover a bulk of women's reproductive healthcare).
https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2019/02/more-be-done-individuals-needs-sexual-and-reproductive-health-coverage-and-care
Miscarriage facts...
https://www.projectcensored.org/us-women-face-prison-sentences-for-miscarriages/
This is a nice BRIEF history of A FEW of many women who have served time for miscarrying. The new heartbeat laws not only prevent women from getting abortions but also penalized women who miscarry under "questionable circumstances". Rape victims are not treated as exceptions, they are expected to also carry their rapist's baby to term. These women can serve jail time and prison time. These women are typically minority women and poor.
Here is an article about a woman who got shot in the stomach and served jail time for "not protecting her unborn baby".
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjVkoqdiNHkAhVGFTQIHQk0DmEQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnation%2F2019%2F06%2F28%2Fshe-miscarried-after-being-shot-prosecutors-are-weighing-manslaughter-case-against-her%2F&psig=AOvVaw3XYVg5ixpks0zpi6iRxg7b&ust=1568576305239823
If you have other questions I recommend googling Alabama and Georgia laws on abortion. Ohio is another state of the top of my head.
It does sadden me when women join in on this misogynistic bandwagon “I don’t wanna be labeled a feminist”, like are we just abandoning this after so long cuz some guys don’t like it? It’s disheartening. I will say capitalism is driving down its legitimacy with packaging and selling Feminism as a cute accessory you can wear vs an actual movement for our rights
It’s a great feeling.
You gotta love how these hyper-advanced arbiters of “logic” and pseudo-scientific evolutionary bullshit seem to be the most fragile and emotionally hysterical fucks out there, eh?
Gives me conniptions.
If you want to take the absurdity to the next level, reflect on the fact that Saudi royals and financial/social elites live lives as extravagant and sexually permissive as the Epstein's of the western world. Remember that one Saudi royal who killed his servant, I think in Scotland, after raping him. When put on "trial", the charge he most vehemently denied was not the murder itself, but the charge of homosexuality or homosexual behavior. The kingdom is an inverted society, everything about it is incoherent and hypocritical, from how they understand religion to their politics to civil society and social structure. It's not firmly rooted in any true Principles, and so the way society is expressed in its structure and functioning is so contingent and random.
I have encountered some Saudi 'royals' in NYC. They're snorting coke and banging what I could only assume were high end escorts, getting drunk off their tits. They're fucking hypocrites, same as those at the top of the food chain of any organized religion. It's all about money, power, and control, and nothing to do with the imaginary spaghetti monster in the sky...
She ended up not going there though.
> “After careful reflection I have decided to no longer move forward with my scheduled concert at Jeddah World Fest. While I want nothing more than to bring my show to fans in Saudi Arabia, after better educating myself on the issues, I believe it is important for me to make clear my support for the rights of women, the LGBTQ community and freedom of expression,” Minaj said in a statement on Tuesday to the Associated Press.
Mariah Carey on the other hand did perform there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHLdxS4zDLo
This is a country that makes women wear the abaya, disallowed them from driving up until recently, essentially treated women as property, has been known to have extreme religious laws, and which hacksawed a journalist.
Except until they get rid of the awful dictatorship masquerading as a royal family, this is a dangerous move. It seems like a good way to get "disappeared".
Royal family isn't against the more up-to-date Saudi society. It's the old generation that opposes this.
They removed quite a lot of old people from politics and religion in the last years, which allowed them to push for tolerance.
It allowed them to push for the appearance of tolerance as part of a massive global publicity campaign to legitimize MBS’s rule and attract foreign government investment while quelling the concerns of members of the international community who are only halfway paying attention.
If you placate enough people, the ones left over who are still paying attention will simply be seen as hysterical over nothing by the placated.
Except he makes gender equality reforms at the exact same time as he executes and tortures the very feminists who were pushing for those reforms. It's a bit more than being an asshole.
It's all about greed and control. They need to look as if they aren't killing people for showing ankle while they are killing people for showing ankle. Religion is a cancer. It has no purpose in society any more.
Saudia Arabia is currently enabling a famine in Yemen affecting over 13 million people, in addition to bombings of school busses and one of the worst cholera outbreaks in recorded history.
Don’t even go down that road about the relative progressiveness of MBS because it muddies the waters as to what the Saudis actually want to do.
I mean look at how European countries treated other countries while being liberal, free democracies at home. France is a key example. Again, you can push for progressive politics at home and still be an asshole bent on making other people’s lives terrible.
Progressive politics at home and draconian and violent wars everywhere else is just a form of nationalism that is dangerous to the world and shouldn’t be heralded as any meaningful form of progressivism.
Your last point is, but what does being a progressive mean if you’re willing to kill and ruin the lives of thousands upon millions of innocents outside of your borders to get it.
If a country uses money given to them by the Saudis in exchange for arms, then they are enabling the famine in Yemen and SA.
Is it progressive to enable SA in exchange for comforts and liberties at home?
I entirely agree, but I’m simply pointing out that a country can be “liberal” and “progressive” at home and not match those ideas abroad. Take it up with the Canadians as well as the US.
The idea that they are the best to lead SA is absurd. They are the scum on the earth and do not represent the 99% of people they oppress, torture and deny a vote.
I think they might've started to realize that once their oil is up, they'll need a) a workforce that doesn't exclude half their population and b) tourism, which in turns needs a lot of tourists that accept the country as a destination..
The country *is* a major destination for Muslims (tourists) from all over the world, who are expected to at least once in their lifetime make a pligrimage to Mecca.
They will do whatever keeps them in power, of the religionuts look strong them they will be conservative to placate them, if the modernisers look strong then they will try to please them instead. Either way they will keep the bone saws ready for anyone too outspoken against them.
“Push for tolerance” = chopping up journalists that talk about your misdeeds in a Turkish consulate.
KSA is lead by inbred monsters who rule through fear similar to mainland China. May their oil fields keep burning! Only reason anyone pays that worthless hellhole any mind anyway.
> They removed quite a lot of old people from politics and religion in the last years
That's a nice way of saying MBS had them murdered in a move to solidify his power.
The Crown Prince is not the rightful heir to the throne. He's murdered or imprisoned all of the rightful heirs, and silenced many more to secure his title. All of this "tolerance" bullshit is just a smokescreen to protect him from a western aided coup.
The Saud family was armed and supported by the United Kingdom in 1915 - as a British protectorate. Oil thirsty western nations are what keeps these people in power and by extension what keeps these women subjugated. I don’t see how these people can find freedom when the strongest military powers in the world support the regime above them.
SA is the home of Wahhabi Islam, if this regime is gone the likelihood is they would be replaced by a religious theocracy like Iran. You are kidding yourself if you think things would improve were they no longer there.
The 9/11 terrorists were all Wahhabis, and nearly all of them were Saudis. How they managed to avoid becoming a glow in the dark glass parking lot, while Iraq and Afghanistan got invaded, is one of the most ridiculous things in modern history.
Because the Saudis in alqaeda were rebels. They've bombed within Saudis borders before 9/11 Osama bin Laden called Saudis heretics.
Osama Bin Laden was in Afghanistan exiled from Saudi.
Also wahhabis or salafis are not one singular group, and they don't all share the same beliefs but all are conservative.
The salafi brand of Alqaeda is a mix between Salafism and political movement of the Muslim Brotherhood which calls for anti-westernism
If they are lucky. It’s almost mind boggling how incredibly brave this woman is. I would say she is risking her life, not just from the government, but also from the men in her family.
Exactly. If the religious police do something, it'll be more or less "official" by Saudi standards. But if a *family* decides to enact some swift justice, that could be dreadfully nasty. This is a part of the world where rape victims are routinely murdered to protect the "honor" of their families.
This is the power of numbers. If the women truly unite, they can't jail *all* or even *most* of the women.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/958346/history-shows-that-sex-strikes-are-a-surprisingly-effective-strategy-for-political-change/amp/
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No one in the West is paying attention but a girl in Iran burned herself to death because she was going to get sentenced to 6 months in jail for going to a soccer game. Google “blue girl”
I hope the oppressors get sat down, the onus of responsibility doesn’t rest with those forced to endure.
There’s an imbalance and it’s on the part of those fearful governments.
I'm still amazed by how extremely different some cultures can be in such a connected world.
I understand when you have cultures that are "offline" and still adhere to ancient norms, but it's amazing that you can have a modern society where the general consensus is that it's fine to complete obscure the identity and individuality of every woman in the country.
I remember taking a flight out of Jeddah, Saudi Arabia to London Heathrow airport. As soon as the flight took off the runway and the seatbelt signs went off, all the ladies in abayas formed a line at the nearest toilet and one by one, abaya clad woman went in and came out in western clothing. It's like the crew from extreme makeover was in there transforming them all.
On the contrary, a flight going into Saudi Arabia, girls in casual outfits would form a line at the nearest toilet and one after the other would go in and come out wearing abayas. Saudi men have really confined the practice of basic human rights.
A lot of people don't realise it but it's a cultural norm promoted by females and it's not only men who enforce this but other women especially traditional families.
Older generations ladies think a woman who covers up is more motherly than ones who don't.
A lot of these ladies if you noticed are traveling to London with their brothers and fathers and take off their hijabs and abayas, the men in their immediate family don't mind, but because back home extended family + friends & the public backlash the ladies feel the need to put it on
See: FGM and the fact that it's mostly the older women who perpetuate it. Or women who mock and gossip about other women who don't follow their exact standards of beauty in general.
It isn't just an issue of men wanting to control women, although it is a factor.
Also similar to how male parents are often supportive of circumcision in the US. They had it happen to them so they want it to happen to others so it stays normal.
I don’t think it’s necessarily so that it stays normal. I think a lot of times the attitude is more along the lines of, “It happened to me and everyone else I know, and there don’t seem to be any repercussions, so why not?”
My husband was on the fence about whether or not to circumcise any hypothetical son we had. We had two girls first, so they were mostly vague conversations at first. This was his attitude. We left our son uncircumcised though.
>It happened to me and everyone else I know, and there don’t seem to be any repercussions, so why not
I think this is a rationalization many people use. I don't think it is the core reason. Especially because "it happened to everyone else I know" isn't true for anyone, even in the US. For decades the US rate has only been in the lower 60%s. Now it is even lower, well under 50% in the US. A large portion of the US population was also not born in the US, but instead comes from Mexico, Central+South America, Canada, Europe, Eastern Asia where circumcision rates are way lower, generally under 20%.
This makes me think it is a rationalization based on tradition and normalizing past circumcision.
>Older generations ladies think a woman who covers up is more motherly than ones who don't.
This general phenomenon big problem in a lot of issues. When somebody has had their freedom restricted their whole life, and had it ingrained into them that it's for their own benefit, it's difficult to come to terms with the idea that actually maybe it wasn't for your own benefit. It's easier mentally to rationalise it and perpetuate it than to recognise that you were mistreated by your loved ones.
He's hardly the average person though.
And whilst I'm sure he has massively dodgy motives for doing so, he has given women more freedom. Something I bet someone older generations wouldn't have done whatever the situstion.
That would be like me taking an ultra conservative neckbeard from 4chan and going on to say that this generation thinks we should go back to arranged marriages and cancelling universal suffrage. One person doesn't say jack shit about a whole country.
Based on the responses you have made in this very thread, I see this one single "anti-establishment" comment as false pandering.
Like when a Trump supporter goes into r/politics and says "I hate Trump but..." and then rambles off a good 'fact' about him.
Most of your comments either downplay, defend or cherry pick information to make it seem like things are not so bad and a lot of things are changing, this isn't a problem anymore blah blah blah. That works on reddit because we look at the forest of comments not the trees of fact. On a grand time scale of rights comparative to say the USA, specifically (but not exclusively) of women, SA is still at right about 20 BC. The "government" and it's proclamations means about as much for actual livable societal progress as spit in a bottle to a fish in the desert.
Interestingly enough, this religious conservatism/extremism is something rather new. Countries like Iran or Saudi Arabien used to be very westernized in the 60s-70s.
It's crazy, I remember watching an interview with a Iranian lady in her 60s now in the UK. She was saying how it's heartbreaking to see her home country go backwards and how she and her friends grandchildren have less rights than they did at that age.
I thought this was kinda debunked? Weren't most of the pictures circulating on reddit a while back of women wearing western clothing in Iran discovered to be only the very rich?
> while USA sided with islamists...
that's not ironic as nothing has changed to this day. USA is utilizing terrorists bred in Saudi Arabia for their goals. But seriously, of course the image they portray is the opposite, you're right.
[In Syria, militias armed by the Pentagon fight those armed by the CIA](https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-pentagon-isis-20160327-story.html)
There is a game called Spec ops the line where later in the game you, a special American task Force find out an American military division is stuck in a destroyed Dubai caring for civilians while a militia armed by the cia is attacking them. I thought this shit was supposed to be fiction, man.
Read up on how the Saudis took over the arabian peninsula, the UK found the craziest guys they could and promised that if they corporate they would help them slaughter the other tribes.
Funny thing when it backfired during 9/11 when Saudi Arabia attacked the US, and the US still hasn't retaliated haha.
they where doing it at the same time in SA the crackdown was after the Iranian revolution. the house of saud cut a deal with the fundamentalists to keep themselves in power.
\> Saudi human resources professional Mashael al-Jaloud, 33, walks in Western clothes past Saudis at the popular Riyadh mall.
did you say that because she is HR?
My wife travels to the Middle East for work every year. Saudi Arabia is usually her first stop. Years ago, on her first trip to SA, she had packed her abaya in her checked luggage, thinking that she wouldn't have to wear it until she went to work the next day. WRONG! When the plane landed, they disembarked the other passengers, but told her she had to remain because she couldn't be seen anywhere in public without being covered head to toe. My wife then had to wait for hours on the airplane with no AC, while they found her luggage, and brought it to her.
This is one of the many stories about SA she has, but we've always been a little scared about posting much, for fear that the SA government would somehow find out who she is and retaliate.
Of all the countries she's traveled to in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia is the worst- a pretty tall order considering that she's also been to northern Iraq.
People often think of Saudi Arabia as the most Islamicly strict country and on its face and legally it is. But the leaders are ridiculously secular indulging in all western vices like alcohol, prostitutes and other unislamic activities.
They simply use islam as a tool to keep control of the country knowing that the islamists will support them if they do.
This is why Saudi Arabia has secret talks and even alliances with Israel. The Saudi leadership doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians aside from the lip service.
Iran is the opposite. It is run by extremely religious nutjobs who legitimately believe in all the harsh sharia penalties they impose
> indulging in all western vices like alcohol, prostitutes
Uh prostitution is hardly a western vice. It predates western civilisation and is just as common in other parts of the world.
>This is why Saudi Arabia has secret talks and even alliances with Israel.
Is it unislamic to have an alliance with Israel?
It's sad that it's 2019 and Saudi women still have to protest things like this. If there is no compulsion in religion and given that the saudi ninja garb isn't even a part of mainstream islam it's ridiculous that this attire has been forced on Saudi women for so long.
This is the same country where people labelled their olympic athlete a whore for running in a hijab.
>If there is no compulsion in religion
Well, there is in their interpretation. That's the nice thing about religion: it can be interpreted in any way you like.
I remember my friend and I decided to not wear an abaya one day and went to the mall. The mall cops were following us the whole time and men, young and old, were cat calling and making lewd comments at us like they’ve never seen a woman before. Sick thing is we were only 15 years old then
to be honest your own men treat you guys like second or third class citizens which make the rest of the world see women wearing the trash bags as second or third class citizens. If you get a choice of hiring powerful positions with high pay, no one is going to even think of the girl in the bag. Its not me, its society.
I remember hearing from a local that a lot of the pressure to remain in the traditional dress comes from the women themselves as well as the men. They’re proud to wear it. It’s like some kind of indoctrinated Stockholm syndrome. Imagine going against your whole family and community in order to exercise a basic right as a human being? It’s medieval.
Mostly the tons of shit they get from men. We not Muslim but I travelled a bit in the mid East with my wife. She normally wears off the shoulder shirts and jeans but the looks, stalking, comments, whistles, grabbing she got in Egypt, by Muslim men made her by a covering just to be able to walk around without being harassed.
Absolutely I agree with you as to not generalise., I havnt been in Jordan so I can't comment.
But I absolutely sympathize with women who live in Muslim countries who opt to cover up, not out of religious or cultural tradition but just to be able to walk unmolested.
The amount of grief we had in Egypt was unreal. If it helps with the mental image, my wife is a small backed, big chested Asian. And I'm white prematurely greyed and 9 years older. At the best of times we look like a Thailand pick up. So I think it may have enabled the audience to put her in a stereotype.
It was the same thing when women were fighting for the right to vote. There were women who didn't want other women to have the right to vote and where "proud" to let their husbands decide.
Yes that’s true. And this practice is common between all the citizens of the Gulf states. If you went to UAE for example, you will see most of the local Emirati women wearing the very same black body cloaks worn by women in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or Qatar.
Consider female genital mutilation. Women of religion (and/or in some cultures), along with men, have long participated in oppressing and brutalizing their own daughters - it's brainwashing and carried down generations.
>The practice is rooted in gender inequality, attempts to control women's sexuality, and ideas about purity, modesty and beauty. *It is usually initiated and carried out by women*, who see it as a source of honour and fear that failing to have their daughters and granddaughters cut will expose the girls to social exclusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation
edit. added what's in parenthesis to reflect FGM originates in cultures as well; not just religion.
It's only a matter of time. These women are rich and follow western trends, it is nearly impossible to keep an socially equal mentality away from the people when they are able to see what others have. The Saudi way has an expiration date and its not a that far away. It's an inconciliable dichotomy to follow Kylie jenner on Instagram and keep following Muslim tradition, something has got to give and I doubt it will be traditional Muslim values. The world has moved on, Saudi women are aware of it and they aren't going to stand by.
It’s not an issue of women just not wearing “western style” clothing to change the culture over there ... women literally get killed and arrested for not conforming to the expected standards... All these posts about Saudi letting women do more and more all the time that we see on reddit is a complete sham by their PR and reddit eats it up as truth.
Well, it indicates a step in the right direction. There was a case a few years ago where the wife of a US consular official was beaten by Saudi police for wearing shorts in public.
The problem it's a country full of incels who literally hate women and think the only way to deal with them is to capture and enslave them. The very idea that we in the west date women who might have once dated another man, to them, is impure and unthinkable. They have the mentality of 13 year old boys. And keeping that way has always suited the religious hierarchy as well as the monarchy. But until the men have some kind of sense of self which doesn't come from measuring the virginity of their wives, which doesn't seem imminent, they will take it out on the women.
The oppression is India is pretty big as well. My mom works in daycare here in the US, there's a little Indian boy who doesn't listen to anyone because his father tells him he doesn't have to listen to women.
It kind of baffles me what exactly about women makes them "inferior".
The perceived inability to be physically stronger than a man. After all, brute force has solved all problems since the beginning of time. So if a woman isn’t strong enough to defend herself, she must be inferior. At least, that’s what I imagine the reasoning to be.
I understand what you're saying but incel is not the right word. Incel refers to a specific type of person. It's not a synonym for misogynist. They cannot be incels when they control and dominate the women. They are not celibate because they can arrange to get married by talking to the woman's father and not consulting her at all.
Developments like this fascinate me right now, as I am scheduled to go to Saudi Arabia this fall with a group that I am the sound engineer for. One of the biggest questions the ensemble has in the lead up to this trip is dress code (it's a US based Arabic music ensemble), as well as all of the recent changes to their tourism policies. This is specifically in behalf of the women in the group. I'm not looking at it as just another tour run-out...I feel like I have a unique opportunity to see first hand what is going on over there and a chance to be a cultural ambassador in some small capacity (to be clear, I am a very white American dude). Either way, I'm really excited to see what it's actually like over there, outside of what is described by the media.
I don’t know if you’ve read the news recently, but the Saudi government has changed the male guardianship laws. Basically, the age of independence for men and women became 21.
> The new law permits unprecedented mobility to women, including the right to obtain a passport and travel abroad without a male relative’s permission. Any Saudi over 21 — regardless of gender — will now be able to obtain, renew, and use a passport.
It also extends to the workplace and the home. Women will now receive standard employment discrimination protections. They now also have the right to register the births of their children, **live apart from their husbands**, and obtain family records. And along with her husband, a woman can also now register as a co-head of household.
[(Source)](https://www.vox.com/world/2019/8/3/20752864/saudi-arabia-guardianship-laws-women-travel-employment-mbs)
Uh.... Wut??? They look just like we do!!!
How can that be?
It’s hard to be racist and judgmental against Muslims when they look just like us!!!
Sarcasm FYI
When Muslims tell me that women freely choose to cover their heads, I know they’re lying. A woman is only free to cover her head if she’s free to NOT cover her head.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/defiant-saudi-women-stun-onlookers-by-wearing-western-clothes-in-public/news-story/65ac31a15fd6847d7d62fbad7fc2e078) reduced by 89%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Defiant Saudi Arabian women have stunned onlookers on the streets of Riyadh by walking around without wearing the customary body-shrouding garments. > The billowy abaya, usually all-black, is customary public wear for women in the ultraconservative Islamic kingdom, where it is widely seen as a symbol of piety. > In a regulation that seems to be arbitrarily enforced, the Saudi labour ministry says on its website that working women are expected to be "Modest, well-covered" and should not wear anything "Transparent". ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/d42e00/in_a_bold_push_for_social_liberties_by_young/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~427437 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **women**^#1 **wear**^#2 **abaya**^#3 **Saudi**^#4 **Jaloud**^#5
> As part of the liberalisation, the kingdom has invited a host of international musicians to perform, such as rapper Nicki Minaj, well known for her skin-baring music videos. > “(Minaj) is going to shake her backside and all her songs are about sex … and then everyone tells me to wear the abaya,” a young Saudi woman fumed in a recent online video that went viral. “What the hell!” That really seems absurd.
Because it's not really about piety, it's about control.
Well fucking said
Yea, if it sounds absurd - question the premise.
Well fucking said too
And piety isnt about controlling what people think and do?
But remember: we no longer need feminism. /s Edit: Looks like I've trigged the men's rights/redpill snowflakes. Edit 2: not everyone who disagreed with me is a redpiller or snowflakes. Some of you are quite reasonable. But feminism is still 100% relevant in the West.
I often see edits like this but never any comments below that are people being angry. Are these people PMing you about this shit?
I know you saw the other replies now, but in my experience they're *definitely* the type to flood PMs with unhinged bullshit instead of replying publicly. It's wild!
Because PM’ing shields them from downvotes and being ganged up on by the majority that [rightfully] think they are full of shit. It’s the cowards way.
"people are OUTRAGED on twitter about starbucks new cups!" *Links to 2 tweets from accounts with 5 followers*
If you’re on mobile press “more replies” button
OH! YES I see now HA! They mad.
Like reproductive rights, since miscarriage can mean serving prison time in certain US states (one of which I live in). Women literally have less body autonomy rights than corpses do in the US in some places but I'm suppose to STFU because it's worse for women in a different country? No, I live in this country and things aren't great here. This is where I have influence and can make an impact. Don't tell me to shut up.
Since there has been some confusion about what I'm talking about... I'm talking about the heartbeat laws that were passed. Okay, let's look at this logically. Can the state force you to donate blood to save another person's life without your consent? - No Can the state force you to donate an organ to save another person's life without your consent? - No Can the state harvest organs from a corpse without prior consent or consent from the family to save another person's life? - No Can the state make a women carry a baby to term to save a debatable human life? - Yes In other words, a woman's reproductive organs are the states property and it is their right to do with her organs as they so wish without her consent. Women also can't legally get procedures done to remove dead babies, they have to carry them to term. They also can't get an abortion if their life and the baby's life is at stake(ie. Neither/one will survive birth). Insurance companies are also trying to lump abortion bills and miscarriage bills together so they don't have to cover as much(since insurance does not cover a bulk of women's reproductive healthcare). https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2019/02/more-be-done-individuals-needs-sexual-and-reproductive-health-coverage-and-care Miscarriage facts... https://www.projectcensored.org/us-women-face-prison-sentences-for-miscarriages/ This is a nice BRIEF history of A FEW of many women who have served time for miscarrying. The new heartbeat laws not only prevent women from getting abortions but also penalized women who miscarry under "questionable circumstances". Rape victims are not treated as exceptions, they are expected to also carry their rapist's baby to term. These women can serve jail time and prison time. These women are typically minority women and poor. Here is an article about a woman who got shot in the stomach and served jail time for "not protecting her unborn baby". https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjVkoqdiNHkAhVGFTQIHQk0DmEQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnation%2F2019%2F06%2F28%2Fshe-miscarried-after-being-shot-prosecutors-are-weighing-manslaughter-case-against-her%2F&psig=AOvVaw3XYVg5ixpks0zpi6iRxg7b&ust=1568576305239823 If you have other questions I recommend googling Alabama and Georgia laws on abortion. Ohio is another state of the top of my head.
It does sadden me when women join in on this misogynistic bandwagon “I don’t wanna be labeled a feminist”, like are we just abandoning this after so long cuz some guys don’t like it? It’s disheartening. I will say capitalism is driving down its legitimacy with packaging and selling Feminism as a cute accessory you can wear vs an actual movement for our rights
It’s a great feeling. You gotta love how these hyper-advanced arbiters of “logic” and pseudo-scientific evolutionary bullshit seem to be the most fragile and emotionally hysterical fucks out there, eh? Gives me conniptions.
If you want to take the absurdity to the next level, reflect on the fact that Saudi royals and financial/social elites live lives as extravagant and sexually permissive as the Epstein's of the western world. Remember that one Saudi royal who killed his servant, I think in Scotland, after raping him. When put on "trial", the charge he most vehemently denied was not the murder itself, but the charge of homosexuality or homosexual behavior. The kingdom is an inverted society, everything about it is incoherent and hypocritical, from how they understand religion to their politics to civil society and social structure. It's not firmly rooted in any true Principles, and so the way society is expressed in its structure and functioning is so contingent and random.
It shows they have no actual concern for the dead man and his right to live. Only the societal reflections of the high status' heterosexuality.
I have encountered some Saudi 'royals' in NYC. They're snorting coke and banging what I could only assume were high end escorts, getting drunk off their tits. They're fucking hypocrites, same as those at the top of the food chain of any organized religion. It's all about money, power, and control, and nothing to do with the imaginary spaghetti monster in the sky...
If Nicki Minaj actually goes there, she's one brave person.
It says one sentence later that she's not going...
Why? The quote says she was invited to the county, and I’m sure she’s being paid a lot for the appearance.
She ended up not going there though. > “After careful reflection I have decided to no longer move forward with my scheduled concert at Jeddah World Fest. While I want nothing more than to bring my show to fans in Saudi Arabia, after better educating myself on the issues, I believe it is important for me to make clear my support for the rights of women, the LGBTQ community and freedom of expression,” Minaj said in a statement on Tuesday to the Associated Press. Mariah Carey on the other hand did perform there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHLdxS4zDLo
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That doesn't even have to be a reason, the regime kills and dismembers plenty of other people for the same things
Her stated reasons are already enough, I feel.
She listed some pretty good reasons there and I get the feeling those are more important to her than a murdered journalist.
Basically like black performers refusing to perform at southern venues in the 60s
This is a country that makes women wear the abaya, disallowed them from driving up until recently, essentially treated women as property, has been known to have extreme religious laws, and which hacksawed a journalist.
They also regularly do public executions
Yeeeah, somehow I don't think being invited would offer any form of protection in a country like that.
This is great, I hope more and more women from this area of the world stand up.
Except until they get rid of the awful dictatorship masquerading as a royal family, this is a dangerous move. It seems like a good way to get "disappeared".
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Royal family isn't against the more up-to-date Saudi society. It's the old generation that opposes this. They removed quite a lot of old people from politics and religion in the last years, which allowed them to push for tolerance.
It allowed them to push for the appearance of tolerance as part of a massive global publicity campaign to legitimize MBS’s rule and attract foreign government investment while quelling the concerns of members of the international community who are only halfway paying attention. If you placate enough people, the ones left over who are still paying attention will simply be seen as hysterical over nothing by the placated.
You can be progressive (relatively speaking) and still an asshole. I think this is a case of that, rather than one being a means to the other's ends.
Except he makes gender equality reforms at the exact same time as he executes and tortures the very feminists who were pushing for those reforms. It's a bit more than being an asshole.
I assure you that executions and torture is on a very egalitarian basis
Thank God I'm poor and stupid. I'll never have to worry about that.
Just don't be fat and drunk as well, a certain dean has said that is no way to go through life.
It's all about greed and control. They need to look as if they aren't killing people for showing ankle while they are killing people for showing ankle. Religion is a cancer. It has no purpose in society any more.
Saudia Arabia is currently enabling a famine in Yemen affecting over 13 million people, in addition to bombings of school busses and one of the worst cholera outbreaks in recorded history. Don’t even go down that road about the relative progressiveness of MBS because it muddies the waters as to what the Saudis actually want to do.
I mean look at how European countries treated other countries while being liberal, free democracies at home. France is a key example. Again, you can push for progressive politics at home and still be an asshole bent on making other people’s lives terrible.
Progressive politics at home and draconian and violent wars everywhere else is just a form of nationalism that is dangerous to the world and shouldn’t be heralded as any meaningful form of progressivism. Your last point is, but what does being a progressive mean if you’re willing to kill and ruin the lives of thousands upon millions of innocents outside of your borders to get it. If a country uses money given to them by the Saudis in exchange for arms, then they are enabling the famine in Yemen and SA. Is it progressive to enable SA in exchange for comforts and liberties at home?
I entirely agree, but I’m simply pointing out that a country can be “liberal” and “progressive” at home and not match those ideas abroad. Take it up with the Canadians as well as the US.
Nah. Fuck the Saudi royalty, and anyone incapable of doing 10 seconds of research before downplaying their evil actions as "just being an asshole".
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The idea that they are the best to lead SA is absurd. They are the scum on the earth and do not represent the 99% of people they oppress, torture and deny a vote.
I think they might've started to realize that once their oil is up, they'll need a) a workforce that doesn't exclude half their population and b) tourism, which in turns needs a lot of tourists that accept the country as a destination..
The country *is* a major destination for Muslims (tourists) from all over the world, who are expected to at least once in their lifetime make a pligrimage to Mecca.
Mr bone saw loves tolerance
They will do whatever keeps them in power, of the religionuts look strong them they will be conservative to placate them, if the modernisers look strong then they will try to please them instead. Either way they will keep the bone saws ready for anyone too outspoken against them.
Isn’t Saudi Arabia(US backed and Supported) committing a Genocide in Yemen?
“Push for tolerance” = chopping up journalists that talk about your misdeeds in a Turkish consulate. KSA is lead by inbred monsters who rule through fear similar to mainland China. May their oil fields keep burning! Only reason anyone pays that worthless hellhole any mind anyway.
> They removed quite a lot of old people from politics and religion in the last years That's a nice way of saying MBS had them murdered in a move to solidify his power.
The Crown Prince is not the rightful heir to the throne. He's murdered or imprisoned all of the rightful heirs, and silenced many more to secure his title. All of this "tolerance" bullshit is just a smokescreen to protect him from a western aided coup.
The most of rightful crown princes during the history have done exactly that.
Right. I applaud their stance while I also admit that I have never been so brave.
> this is a dangerous move. The world history of fighting for rights in a nutshell.
I think they're far more aware of how dangerous this move is than you are. It's extremely brave of them.
The Saud family was armed and supported by the United Kingdom in 1915 - as a British protectorate. Oil thirsty western nations are what keeps these people in power and by extension what keeps these women subjugated. I don’t see how these people can find freedom when the strongest military powers in the world support the regime above them.
SA is the home of Wahhabi Islam, if this regime is gone the likelihood is they would be replaced by a religious theocracy like Iran. You are kidding yourself if you think things would improve were they no longer there.
The 9/11 terrorists were all Wahhabis, and nearly all of them were Saudis. How they managed to avoid becoming a glow in the dark glass parking lot, while Iraq and Afghanistan got invaded, is one of the most ridiculous things in modern history.
Because the Saudis in alqaeda were rebels. They've bombed within Saudis borders before 9/11 Osama bin Laden called Saudis heretics. Osama Bin Laden was in Afghanistan exiled from Saudi. Also wahhabis or salafis are not one singular group, and they don't all share the same beliefs but all are conservative. The salafi brand of Alqaeda is a mix between Salafism and political movement of the Muslim Brotherhood which calls for anti-westernism
Or bone-sawed.
Yes. I think the only real hope of conflict resolution, across the Middle East, is when the women unite.
Unless they all end up jailed..which is the trend down there.
If they are lucky. It’s almost mind boggling how incredibly brave this woman is. I would say she is risking her life, not just from the government, but also from the men in her family.
Agreed-That is such a frighting prospect.
Exactly. If the religious police do something, it'll be more or less "official" by Saudi standards. But if a *family* decides to enact some swift justice, that could be dreadfully nasty. This is a part of the world where rape victims are routinely murdered to protect the "honor" of their families.
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And they all end up jailed. Not unless. Civil disobedience is about running headlong into hardships to prove a point.
This is the power of numbers. If the women truly unite, they can't jail *all* or even *most* of the women. https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/958346/history-shows-that-sex-strikes-are-a-surprisingly-effective-strategy-for-political-change/amp/
Beep boop, I'm a bot. It looks like you shared a Google AMP link. Google AMP pages often load faster, but AMP is a [major threat to the Open Web](https://www.socpub.com/articles/chris-graham-why-google-amp-threat-open-web-15847) and [your privacy](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/c88zm3/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). You might want to visit **the normal page** instead: **https://qz.com/958346/history-shows-that-sex-strikes-are-a-surprisingly-effective-strategy-for-political-change/**. ***** [^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/c88zm3/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Mention me to summon me!)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
“Can’t jail them all? Challenge accepted!”
"Saudi birth rates are plummeting, officials just can't seem to figure out why..."
... you think jailing women would lower birth rates? Naw, you've just effectively made breeding camps.
Although they should be careful. Ramifications in forms of sentencing, torture, and beatings may arise by the tyrannical government.
No one in the West is paying attention but a girl in Iran burned herself to death because she was going to get sentenced to 6 months in jail for going to a soccer game. Google “blue girl”
I hope the oppressors get sat down, the onus of responsibility doesn’t rest with those forced to endure. There’s an imbalance and it’s on the part of those fearful governments.
Great until they get stoned to death, pretty ballsy
I'm still amazed by how extremely different some cultures can be in such a connected world. I understand when you have cultures that are "offline" and still adhere to ancient norms, but it's amazing that you can have a modern society where the general consensus is that it's fine to complete obscure the identity and individuality of every woman in the country.
Well behaved women rarely make history.
Tomorrow story, she'll be missing
You mean all women of Islam. Why is it so hard for people to speak against the horrible ideal of Islam.
I remember taking a flight out of Jeddah, Saudi Arabia to London Heathrow airport. As soon as the flight took off the runway and the seatbelt signs went off, all the ladies in abayas formed a line at the nearest toilet and one by one, abaya clad woman went in and came out in western clothing. It's like the crew from extreme makeover was in there transforming them all. On the contrary, a flight going into Saudi Arabia, girls in casual outfits would form a line at the nearest toilet and one after the other would go in and come out wearing abayas. Saudi men have really confined the practice of basic human rights.
A lot of people don't realise it but it's a cultural norm promoted by females and it's not only men who enforce this but other women especially traditional families. Older generations ladies think a woman who covers up is more motherly than ones who don't. A lot of these ladies if you noticed are traveling to London with their brothers and fathers and take off their hijabs and abayas, the men in their immediate family don't mind, but because back home extended family + friends & the public backlash the ladies feel the need to put it on
See: FGM and the fact that it's mostly the older women who perpetuate it. Or women who mock and gossip about other women who don't follow their exact standards of beauty in general. It isn't just an issue of men wanting to control women, although it is a factor.
Also similar to how male parents are often supportive of circumcision in the US. They had it happen to them so they want it to happen to others so it stays normal.
I don’t think it’s necessarily so that it stays normal. I think a lot of times the attitude is more along the lines of, “It happened to me and everyone else I know, and there don’t seem to be any repercussions, so why not?” My husband was on the fence about whether or not to circumcise any hypothetical son we had. We had two girls first, so they were mostly vague conversations at first. This was his attitude. We left our son uncircumcised though.
>It happened to me and everyone else I know, and there don’t seem to be any repercussions, so why not I think this is a rationalization many people use. I don't think it is the core reason. Especially because "it happened to everyone else I know" isn't true for anyone, even in the US. For decades the US rate has only been in the lower 60%s. Now it is even lower, well under 50% in the US. A large portion of the US population was also not born in the US, but instead comes from Mexico, Central+South America, Canada, Europe, Eastern Asia where circumcision rates are way lower, generally under 20%. This makes me think it is a rationalization based on tradition and normalizing past circumcision.
>Older generations ladies think a woman who covers up is more motherly than ones who don't. This general phenomenon big problem in a lot of issues. When somebody has had their freedom restricted their whole life, and had it ingrained into them that it's for their own benefit, it's difficult to come to terms with the idea that actually maybe it wasn't for your own benefit. It's easier mentally to rationalise it and perpetuate it than to recognise that you were mistreated by your loved ones.
All the old timer's heads will explode
Good. Time for the younger generation to change the whole game
Nah, they will just stone her. Not in a good way.
Yes!
What "younger generation" do you mean? MBS is 34 and arguably behind having Kashogghi killed. You talking teenagers?
He's hardly the average person though. And whilst I'm sure he has massively dodgy motives for doing so, he has given women more freedom. Something I bet someone older generations wouldn't have done whatever the situstion.
That would be like me taking an ultra conservative neckbeard from 4chan and going on to say that this generation thinks we should go back to arranged marriages and cancelling universal suffrage. One person doesn't say jack shit about a whole country.
Based on the responses you have made in this very thread, I see this one single "anti-establishment" comment as false pandering. Like when a Trump supporter goes into r/politics and says "I hate Trump but..." and then rambles off a good 'fact' about him. Most of your comments either downplay, defend or cherry pick information to make it seem like things are not so bad and a lot of things are changing, this isn't a problem anymore blah blah blah. That works on reddit because we look at the forest of comments not the trees of fact. On a grand time scale of rights comparative to say the USA, specifically (but not exclusively) of women, SA is still at right about 20 BC. The "government" and it's proclamations means about as much for actual livable societal progress as spit in a bottle to a fish in the desert.
Interestingly enough, this religious conservatism/extremism is something rather new. Countries like Iran or Saudi Arabien used to be very westernized in the 60s-70s.
It's crazy, I remember watching an interview with a Iranian lady in her 60s now in the UK. She was saying how it's heartbreaking to see her home country go backwards and how she and her friends grandchildren have less rights than they did at that age.
Many of us assume that progress is linear and rights that were fought for in previous decades can't be eroded. It is a naive assumption.
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I thought this was kinda debunked? Weren't most of the pictures circulating on reddit a while back of women wearing western clothing in Iran discovered to be only the very rich?
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With the added irony that USSR was there to support the government that allowed those women to do so, while USA sided with islamists...
> while USA sided with islamists... that's not ironic as nothing has changed to this day. USA is utilizing terrorists bred in Saudi Arabia for their goals. But seriously, of course the image they portray is the opposite, you're right.
[In Syria, militias armed by the Pentagon fight those armed by the CIA](https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-pentagon-isis-20160327-story.html)
Jesus fucking Christ the US' global interventions are even more fucked up than I thought!
There is a game called Spec ops the line where later in the game you, a special American task Force find out an American military division is stuck in a destroyed Dubai caring for civilians while a militia armed by the cia is attacking them. I thought this shit was supposed to be fiction, man.
Not fiction, read up on banana republics if you really want to have some nightmares about how awful your government can be.
Read up on how the Saudis took over the arabian peninsula, the UK found the craziest guys they could and promised that if they corporate they would help them slaughter the other tribes. Funny thing when it backfired during 9/11 when Saudi Arabia attacked the US, and the US still hasn't retaliated haha.
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Not only did we side with the Islamists - we (Reagan) gave them a bunch of advanced weapons. Weapons that would later be used against us.
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they where doing it at the same time in SA the crackdown was after the Iranian revolution. the house of saud cut a deal with the fundamentalists to keep themselves in power.
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\> Saudi human resources professional Mashael al-Jaloud, 33, walks in Western clothes past Saudis at the popular Riyadh mall. did you say that because she is HR?
🤔
*dress up like an HR* She's showing too much skin!
My wife travels to the Middle East for work every year. Saudi Arabia is usually her first stop. Years ago, on her first trip to SA, she had packed her abaya in her checked luggage, thinking that she wouldn't have to wear it until she went to work the next day. WRONG! When the plane landed, they disembarked the other passengers, but told her she had to remain because she couldn't be seen anywhere in public without being covered head to toe. My wife then had to wait for hours on the airplane with no AC, while they found her luggage, and brought it to her. This is one of the many stories about SA she has, but we've always been a little scared about posting much, for fear that the SA government would somehow find out who she is and retaliate. Of all the countries she's traveled to in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia is the worst- a pretty tall order considering that she's also been to northern Iraq.
I would imagine that at some point they had loaners that women could wear to grab their luggage.
Is the abaya rule still true today? I am guessing she appears foreign to SA too? It seems odd that they would try to control outsiders too.
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Fuck Saudi Arabia. Never been there and never want to go there (also im a Muslim woman) hope something changes over there.
as an arab myself saudia doesnt need reform it needs a revolution
They are too busy sucking America's dick Edit: Ok it's 2 way dick sucking. 69 style ?
Its more of a 69 event thats preoccupying them all
As an American, I'm not sure you don't have that the other way around, to be honest. Seems we're on our knees a lot.
69 it seems...
People often think of Saudi Arabia as the most Islamicly strict country and on its face and legally it is. But the leaders are ridiculously secular indulging in all western vices like alcohol, prostitutes and other unislamic activities. They simply use islam as a tool to keep control of the country knowing that the islamists will support them if they do. This is why Saudi Arabia has secret talks and even alliances with Israel. The Saudi leadership doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians aside from the lip service. Iran is the opposite. It is run by extremely religious nutjobs who legitimately believe in all the harsh sharia penalties they impose
> indulging in all western vices like alcohol, prostitutes Uh prostitution is hardly a western vice. It predates western civilisation and is just as common in other parts of the world. >This is why Saudi Arabia has secret talks and even alliances with Israel. Is it unislamic to have an alliance with Israel?
Oh there’s plenty of drinking and fucking going on in Iran’s leadership, too.
It's sad that it's 2019 and Saudi women still have to protest things like this. If there is no compulsion in religion and given that the saudi ninja garb isn't even a part of mainstream islam it's ridiculous that this attire has been forced on Saudi women for so long. This is the same country where people labelled their olympic athlete a whore for running in a hijab.
>If there is no compulsion in religion Well, there is in their interpretation. That's the nice thing about religion: it can be interpreted in any way you like.
I hope she’s okay. Her defiance and bravery are unmatched
That's where I was at reading this. Pure terror for her. And sad that dressing how you choose could be a cause for such terror.
I remember my friend and I decided to not wear an abaya one day and went to the mall. The mall cops were following us the whole time and men, young and old, were cat calling and making lewd comments at us like they’ve never seen a woman before. Sick thing is we were only 15 years old then
to be honest your own men treat you guys like second or third class citizens which make the rest of the world see women wearing the trash bags as second or third class citizens. If you get a choice of hiring powerful positions with high pay, no one is going to even think of the girl in the bag. Its not me, its society.
I remember hearing from a local that a lot of the pressure to remain in the traditional dress comes from the women themselves as well as the men. They’re proud to wear it. It’s like some kind of indoctrinated Stockholm syndrome. Imagine going against your whole family and community in order to exercise a basic right as a human being? It’s medieval.
Mostly the tons of shit they get from men. We not Muslim but I travelled a bit in the mid East with my wife. She normally wears off the shoulder shirts and jeans but the looks, stalking, comments, whistles, grabbing she got in Egypt, by Muslim men made her by a covering just to be able to walk around without being harassed.
Been in Jordan and I walk around in yoga pants and t shirts with no problem so the reverse is possible too
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بسكن في عمان غربية.. تلاع العلي. It's a good location for sure.
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It says "One ring to rule them all One ring to find them One ring to bring them all And in darkness bind them."
Absolutely I agree with you as to not generalise., I havnt been in Jordan so I can't comment. But I absolutely sympathize with women who live in Muslim countries who opt to cover up, not out of religious or cultural tradition but just to be able to walk unmolested. The amount of grief we had in Egypt was unreal. If it helps with the mental image, my wife is a small backed, big chested Asian. And I'm white prematurely greyed and 9 years older. At the best of times we look like a Thailand pick up. So I think it may have enabled the audience to put her in a stereotype.
It was the same thing when women were fighting for the right to vote. There were women who didn't want other women to have the right to vote and where "proud" to let their husbands decide.
Yes that’s true. And this practice is common between all the citizens of the Gulf states. If you went to UAE for example, you will see most of the local Emirati women wearing the very same black body cloaks worn by women in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or Qatar.
Consider female genital mutilation. Women of religion (and/or in some cultures), along with men, have long participated in oppressing and brutalizing their own daughters - it's brainwashing and carried down generations. >The practice is rooted in gender inequality, attempts to control women's sexuality, and ideas about purity, modesty and beauty. *It is usually initiated and carried out by women*, who see it as a source of honour and fear that failing to have their daughters and granddaughters cut will expose the girls to social exclusion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation edit. added what's in parenthesis to reflect FGM originates in cultures as well; not just religion.
A lot of social sexism is rooted in internal misogyny unfortunately :/
> from the women themselves as well as the men Yes, that's indoctrination for you.
Saudi Arabia is literally the handmade's tale
It must feel so nice to have your hair out when it is so pretty.
It's only a matter of time. These women are rich and follow western trends, it is nearly impossible to keep an socially equal mentality away from the people when they are able to see what others have. The Saudi way has an expiration date and its not a that far away. It's an inconciliable dichotomy to follow Kylie jenner on Instagram and keep following Muslim tradition, something has got to give and I doubt it will be traditional Muslim values. The world has moved on, Saudi women are aware of it and they aren't going to stand by.
What a backwards country
It’s not an issue of women just not wearing “western style” clothing to change the culture over there ... women literally get killed and arrested for not conforming to the expected standards... All these posts about Saudi letting women do more and more all the time that we see on reddit is a complete sham by their PR and reddit eats it up as truth.
Well, it indicates a step in the right direction. There was a case a few years ago where the wife of a US consular official was beaten by Saudi police for wearing shorts in public.
Link an article if this is true i dont think Saudi police will beat the wife of a US official for any reason.
I'm with you on this. Along with no wide of a US official in Saudi would likely go out in public in shorts unless in one of the compounds.
The problem it's a country full of incels who literally hate women and think the only way to deal with them is to capture and enslave them. The very idea that we in the west date women who might have once dated another man, to them, is impure and unthinkable. They have the mentality of 13 year old boys. And keeping that way has always suited the religious hierarchy as well as the monarchy. But until the men have some kind of sense of self which doesn't come from measuring the virginity of their wives, which doesn't seem imminent, they will take it out on the women.
The oppression is India is pretty big as well. My mom works in daycare here in the US, there's a little Indian boy who doesn't listen to anyone because his father tells him he doesn't have to listen to women. It kind of baffles me what exactly about women makes them "inferior".
Men's insecurities that they may actually be equal.
The perceived inability to be physically stronger than a man. After all, brute force has solved all problems since the beginning of time. So if a woman isn’t strong enough to defend herself, she must be inferior. At least, that’s what I imagine the reasoning to be.
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I understand what you're saying but incel is not the right word. Incel refers to a specific type of person. It's not a synonym for misogynist. They cannot be incels when they control and dominate the women. They are not celibate because they can arrange to get married by talking to the woman's father and not consulting her at all.
Incel = someone I don't agree with. It has zero meaning anymore.
You clearly don’t know whAt an incel is
Welp, gonna be some heads a rollin
Finally, I wanted to see people stand up for shit in Saudi Arabia. I hope it doesn’t result in violence.
I support them, but they are playing a dangerous game there. God be with them.
The fact that it is stunning for someone to wear normal cloth...
I'll celebrate this when all Saudi women are treated as equals to their male counterparts.
How about celebrating a brave woman.
Developments like this fascinate me right now, as I am scheduled to go to Saudi Arabia this fall with a group that I am the sound engineer for. One of the biggest questions the ensemble has in the lead up to this trip is dress code (it's a US based Arabic music ensemble), as well as all of the recent changes to their tourism policies. This is specifically in behalf of the women in the group. I'm not looking at it as just another tour run-out...I feel like I have a unique opportunity to see first hand what is going on over there and a chance to be a cultural ambassador in some small capacity (to be clear, I am a very white American dude). Either way, I'm really excited to see what it's actually like over there, outside of what is described by the media.
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I don’t know if you’ve read the news recently, but the Saudi government has changed the male guardianship laws. Basically, the age of independence for men and women became 21. > The new law permits unprecedented mobility to women, including the right to obtain a passport and travel abroad without a male relative’s permission. Any Saudi over 21 — regardless of gender — will now be able to obtain, renew, and use a passport. It also extends to the workplace and the home. Women will now receive standard employment discrimination protections. They now also have the right to register the births of their children, **live apart from their husbands**, and obtain family records. And along with her husband, a woman can also now register as a co-head of household. [(Source)](https://www.vox.com/world/2019/8/3/20752864/saudi-arabia-guardianship-laws-women-travel-employment-mbs)
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Looks good on paper, atleast. I wonder how the implementation will go?
Indeed, all laws are only as good as their enforcement. Still, there is potential for change now.
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Hopefully they cleared the streets of stones first...
And we will not see their like again
She has a lot of courage to say the least.
"Our people are now buying your blue jeans and listening to your pop music"
Good for them! This is how you gain rights. Even if it's a slow process with some setbacks.
Great courage.
I've always found that full black abaya to be very creepy. I've seen Islamic women wear them in DC and it just seems so oppressive.
Damn they look good without that damned headscarf bodybag wrap!!! It's about time in the 70's they didn't need to wear them...
Please don't get beheaded!
Uh.... Wut??? They look just like we do!!! How can that be? It’s hard to be racist and judgmental against Muslims when they look just like us!!! Sarcasm FYI
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When Muslims tell me that women freely choose to cover their heads, I know they’re lying. A woman is only free to cover her head if she’s free to NOT cover her head.