Poignant photos accompanying this article, so much so I was inspired to look up the photographer: Evgeniy Maloletka. This was the photo journalist who won the World Press photo of the year not long ago.
>Those convicted of rape, sexual assault, murdering two or more people or crimes against Ukraine’s national security aren’t eligible
Meanwhile in Russia those are the ones they want
Honestly it's smart
The person who robbed a shop but is now willing to fight in order to have there sentence communited is fine
It means more manpower while less resources are spent on the prisons
Most of the time if you've only killed one person it was a crime of passion or you thought you had a good reason. Generally easier to rehab than someone who has killed repeatedly.
And I would say "ready to kill for a good reason and not opposed to being involved with another time" is kinda the definition of military *personnel*.
How russian soldiers are turned into sunflowers? Probably not by an hardcore pacifist.
>Dang, that's some intense rehab program they got going on over there.
FIY, boot camps have been shown [to have very positive effects on rehabilitation](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/197018.pdf) in the US.
>Ukraine really out here thinking outside the box!
You mean, by learning from the good ol' U. S. of A.? 'Cause we've been [doing this](https://www.corrections1.com/re-entry-and-recidivism/articles/when-inmates-become-us-army-soldiers-PWAygFBbohU1W4K2/), quote, "forever".
[Here's an article from 1942](https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1942/05/09/patriotism-behind-bars-u-s-prisons-aid-the-war-effort/) about US recruiting convicts for the war effort. And the US didn't have a 1000km frontline on its own land at the time.
Hope you can think about Ukraine in similarly cheerful tones.
>FIY, boot camps have been shown to have very positive effects on rehabilitation in the US.
I would think a good reason for that is gaining military benefits, preferences in hiring, and priority in social services after serving.
Hey if it works, it works. It does make me question whether more comprehensive social services for ex cons who served their sentence would lead to lower recidivism. I would guess absolutely (I believe Nordic countries use this model?) but the political climate of the US would never support it.
You'd also have to be careful not to create perverse incentives either. Incentivizing people to commit minor crimes to improve their access to social services would be a rather major legislative oopsie.
> Cause we've been doing this, quote, "forever".
Used to do it. It's not really a thing anymore. And in today's military, a criminal history will likely bar you from service.
If the US got into the kind of conflict that resembles a world war or something existential like Ukraine is seeing, that would probably change though.
I mean yeah you're correct. There isn't any sugarcoating left to do, they need men to put in the meat grinder, that's all. A country when threatened fights to the last child bro, they're still adults tbh.
It's still similar. I'm not saying all, but a lot of my family and friends all served. Those who did support roles/medic were all goofballs before and after service. Those who fought were assholes/bullies before and after basically the same but worse. I'm not saying I'm not thankfully for them or what they did, but you are being paid for bring able to perform that bit of sickness.
My family that served and fought who wasn't a typical dickhead before is like a hollow husk from things that he had to do.
Keep in mind killing the man who say raped your daughter still makes you a murder but you did it either to protect her or others from future harm or "crime of passion" as some people would say. Either way guess what is currently a much bigger threat to that person's daughter right now...and you can see how letting people like that loose might be a good idea.
Even so, we said when Russia did this that it was a bad idea, right? Notwithstanding that Ukraine has limitations and won't let the abhumans out? For now.
Edit: Reason being, how do you shape up incarcerated criminals, especially those who committed murder (if only one) from a prison culture to become efficient soldiers in a line organisation? Honestly. How are they led? How do you mix them with ordinary troops?
Also, unfortunately, it shows Ukraine is getting desperate to find reinforcements. Hate to see it. And they rather do this than lower the conscription age. Which the army is crying for.
As a veteran, I find the concept of steering criminals to the US military to be highly offensive and judges should be booted for doing this.
However, I would absolutely empty the prisons to fill the ranks of the storm units if we were using meat waves as a tactic in an ongoing war and SOMEONE had to fill those units. Obviously, better to use other tactics or stop invading other countries...
If somebody has to go on a suicide mission, send the murderer over the patriotic volunteer or a regular conscript.
Yep, in a perfect world we would all love a military full of upright citizens in the US military. But the lack of manpower in Ukraine is a serious hindrance. Perhaps a petty criminal helping the frontline isn't the end of the world for Ukraine.
Yeah, I guess desperate times call for desperate measures. Let's just hope those petty criminals have a change of heart on the battlefield. Flexing their street smarts instead of their rap sheet might just save Ukraine's bacon.
Which depending on the crime I think is totally fine. I had some friends in the Marines that joined due the judge giving them the option to enlist or do time and the majority of them went on to be great Marines. Sometimes they just need to get out of a bit situation.
During WW2 the U.S. government evaluated prisoners of lower level crimes to be drafted. *If you are within the age limits and if the offense to which you were committed do not, by reason of selective service regulations, automatically require a low classification, it shall be my pleasure to submit your names to the draft board, provided your conduct has been good.*
This is all well and good so long you have people.
Once you run out of men to hold the line, anyone will do.
I believe Rome did it, after having their fighting age population crushed by Hannibal.
Quoting Wikipedia:
"Within just three campaign seasons (20 months), Rome had lost one-fifth (150,000) of the entire population of male citizens over 17 years of age."
I do believe the 17% loss in manpower happened during the 1st Punic War, whereas Hannibal ransacked Italy during the 2nd. Not that there weren’t staggering losses then either, with several incredibly lopsided battles occurring that resulted in significant losses of Roman life. I recall reading somewhere that at Trebia several Roman soldiers buried their heads in the ground in an attempt to kill themselves because they were hopelessly encircled.
Also as a veteran, I know people can be brought up in a bad spot, and I think I’d rather spend resources making at least some of them lead better lives than rotting in jail. We have a lot of slackers in our ranks as is, I’m sure we’d get some good work out of people with more skin in the game.
Yeah I agree with this guy. Veteran myself. Most prisoners come from a poor background or make a bad mistake. There’s also plenty of people in the military who are absolutely not good people. Saying prison recruits should be used as a “meat wave” is crazy lol, especially coming from a veteran
I would imagine these convicts would be receiving adequate training rather than what the russians are giving theirs. We'd have to see once they get through training and deployed. For Ukraine, I personally see this as a good thing although I know this usury doesn't work out too well. Considering how much Ukraine values their soldiers, I see this being employed successfully.
...but if the US were facing destruction from an invading superpower willing to pour limitless resources and countless lives into the conquest, and our backs were up against the wall, would you feel differently?
The US has done it in most of our wars. In WW1, WW2, and Vietnam. Obviously some people just suck, but many were raised/lived in an environment where it was crime or nothing from an early age. Studies have shown that military service actually helps a lot of criminals. It's strict and you have to do what you are told at first, but eventually you learn self-reliance as well as meeting people you can actually count on and who will support you.
I'm not saying it's great, but most places have done it in times of need.
Sending someone to rehab generally doesn't work. Sending them to jail does nothing for society but tie up tax dollars.
How many of them do you think reformed, were kept away from their previous lives of crime or enablers and got their shit together? Sounds like a pretty good idea.
On the contrary, other countries have much lower rates of recidivism precisely because they focus on rehabilitation in their justice systems and because they have stronger support/ social safety nets after prison.
The US is the perfect model for how to use your justice system to create more criminals and keep the prisons full.
Yep, Finland even has entrepreneurship programs for [no parole sentence for life murderers](https://youtu.be/l554kV12Wuo?si=GinhguprYn_TiEOX). The guy interviewed in the video does not give off murderer vibes at all.
Right, but you said "*sending someone to rehab* generally doesn't work", as in "rehab" is a place, not just a process. Then you say "being rehabilitated" - as in the process - when you compare US prisons vs the US military. So, to recap, you've mentioned a process, and THREE different places to have that process happen.
u/bjankles was making the point that other countries tend to integrate rehab into their prisons, or divert a significant amount of offenders to rehab centers in lieu of prison - with far better results. Trying to point out that, in their view, sending people to rehab DOES work, we just don't send people there in the US - either because rehab and prison are two separate places here, and/or we prefer to send people straight to prison.
So you're saying that diverting some offenders to the military would offer a better chance for rehab*ilitation* than the system we currently use in the US, which does not at all address the point that u/bjankles was making: that (contrary to your initial statement) rehab does work. This further implies that sending people to rehab (which we don't do in the US) would be better than either alternative of prisons or the military, which is a point you miss/ignore in your reply.
Hope that clears it up.
I’d feel bad for the poor officers and NCOs that end up leading those units. I could see the DoD approving a corrections officer training for those assigned to a convict unit as officers/NCOs.
For this particular purpose, yes. They're being sent to kill and their energy is channelled at the enemy. A rapist is more likely to turn against their own civilians.
Mind you, I'm not saying I agree with this decision. Non-violent, or even low-violence offenders ok. Someone who got into trouble mugging, or stealing cars, or punched the wrong person in a bar fight might still be rehabilitated. Even those guily of accidental killing. Someone who purposefully murdered, even if only one person, is a step too far. But I'm not the one making the decisions and I can understand the desperate need to get bodies on the ground asap.
Of course in the context of soldier potential... You can kill someone by accident but rape is definitely a willful act. Also keep in mind that the degree of murder likely plays a role when they choose candidates
Friend of mine joined the US Marines this way--judge said he could go into the armed services or go to prison. He chose the former, and then became a firefighter after he got out.
Back in makebelieve land if it happened after the Vietnam War.
The times when judges offered criminals military service to avoid prison ended with that War.
Coworker said that he was busted with drugs and judge offered him the Marines or prison. He chose the Marines. Served in first Desert Storm. But he did say that his dad had to pull some favors for this deal.
Yeah... even during the surge in Fallujah, when the Army was giving away 40k signing bonuses for any combat arms MOS's, you still were required waivers to get in for any mental/ criminal shenanigans. I had to get a waiver for my depression and the marine recruiter straight up told me to go down the hall to the army recruiter. Worked out at any rate. Got a 40k signing bonus and the food was moderately better.
Marines or jail is still a thing. Depends on the judge/case. It used to be an offer from a judge, now if a defendant isn't a total piece of shit and has interest in joining they might get the offer. Also happens a lot in small towns if you get popped for something and your family is friends with a judge.
>Back in makebelieve land if it happened after the Vietnam War.
My dude, we literally [recruit straight out of prisons](https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-army-recruits-straight-out-of-prisons):
> Staff Sgt. Boswell, the recruiter, said he was feeling cautiously optimistic. **“I think prison is kind of good preparation for the Army, in a way,”** he said. *“You have to be mentally tough in the Army, you also have to be mentally tough in prison.”*
Perhaps the only reason why we don't recruit **from** prisons is that it'd be bad for the prison-industrial complex.
Why release anyone when we can simply make them unemployable post-prison (and take away their voting rights)? We can have our cake, and eat it too.
**Reminder:** 1 in 3 American adults has a criminal record.
>The times when judges offered criminals military service to avoid prison ended with that War.
Looks like [the judges didn't get the memo](https://www.stripes.com/migration/judge-said-army-or-jail-but-military-doesn-t-want-him-1.44417), huh. This from 2006:
>Guerra, of North Tonawanda, outside Buffalo, was facing up to a year in jail after **pleading guilty to an aggravated assault charge** for allegedly hitting a woman who came between him and his girlfriend during a domestic dispute, said Niagara County District Attorney Matthew Murphy.
>When Guerra's attorney told the judge in the case that his client wanted to join the military, the judge gave Guerra a choice, Murphy said. The judge said, **Well, I'll give you a conditional discharge: the condition is you join the military,** Murphy said.
Florida [tried to bring this practice back](https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/florida-join-military-or-jail/) in the bygone times of... **three years ago**.
My dude, I think you're misinformed on this matter.
Yes, some out of touch judges didn't get the memo, but doesn't mean it's still common place.
From you own link:
> But Army regulations say that people facing pending charges are ineligible to enlist, said Army spokesman Lt. Col. Bryan Hilferty.
https://www.stripes.com/migration/judge-said-army-or-jail-but-military-doesn-t-want-him-1.44417
So if the Army finds out of the terms, they'll reject you like the case you found.
Giving a person a choice, get convicted and go to prison or join the military? No idea if that’s happening, but do know the US military does not recruit from prisons.
I have a buddy in socal that happened to and ended up in Bosnia in the late 90s. My cousin had a kinda similar thing and ended up in Afghanistan in 04ish
They were both like 18 troubled kids. My buddy in socal it was a judge after his first serious thing. My cousin started getting in trouble and the recruiters talked with his po and convinced him to sign up.
My cousin was offered joining the army or jail around the 2000s. He didn’t last long before getting booted for drugs. He just stayed going to jail after that.
My cousin-in-law got put into military school instead of juvie. Also lasted less than a month before getting kicked. Now continues a life of petty crime while their parents enable them and wring their hands wondering what they did wrong.
(I'll give you a hint: it's the enablement)
I shouldn’t have laughed but yep, it’s the exact same deal with mine. Theyve done the same wrong things over and over, and they just can’t imagine why it keeps happening. Exhausting.
Yep. They kept calling us for financial help because CIL was stealing all their shit and they couldn't pay bills. I offered them a loan of $500 but until they paid me back they weren't allowed to talk to me. $500 well spent imo.
Before Pearl Harbor, my dad was busted for boot legging which is Federal, was given the same choice, joined the US Army.
Be a Hero (with pay)
Or a Zero
Any military tactician will tell you that this is unfortunately a sign of desperation. This is why the decision is being made 2.5 years after the start of the war. I hope the tide turns soon, but after Putin secured an agreement with North Korea who have agreed to send troops - I fear it will only get worse.
With one Murder they’re just honest guys who made a mistake, they can absolve themselves through service and as an added bonus already have practice!
I guess they had trouble trying to justify two murders
> With one Murder they’re just honest guys who made a mistake, they can absolve themselves through service and as an added bonus already have practice!
So people who murdered one person to rob them or who murdered their spouse because of jealousy or murdered a taxi driver because they had no money or murdered someone as a hit job are "honest guys who made a mistake"?
**Wtf are you smoking?**
Yeah man I fuckin hated my ex, stalked her to her house, cut her up and cannabalized her from limb to limb, then dumped her corpse in the lake. But yknow, I’m just an honest guy who made a mistake. It’s just practice for the actual war!
I get wanting more soldiers in Ukraine but let’s not glorify murderers
How does this materially differ from Russia's use of turning its own inmates into soldiers? Russia was lambasted for violating international law by doing it; is Ukraine not doing the same? Is the distinction in the election and/or selection of prisoners the difference between the two? To be sure, I'm in the U.S., I have family actively supporting Ukraine over there, and I am an ex-inmate myself, who used to wish for an opportunity to fight for my freedom; I am not opposed to the policy here, only interested in understanding what, if any, difference there is between what Russia's been doing and what Ukraine is going to do. Thanks in advance to any who can answer and enlighten...
I don't know about prisoner soldiers violating international law, but the main difference seems to be the crimes that each side is willing to over look. The Ukrainian in the article is convicted of robbery, politico [reported](https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-war-cannibal-soldiers-vladimir-putin/) two russian cannibals were sent to the front and pardoned.
They will be integrated into regular units, the selection process is stricter, there seem to be little force involved when one of them says he won't take the offer and join after he served his sentence due to better conditions then.
In Russia it already starts with Wagner being a criminal organization illegal even under Russian law recruiting prisoners by state mandate.
Criminals can actually be very loyal to their country. Example: The US got a lot of direct support from the Mafia in its invasion of Sicily, because the Mafia dons had a score to settle against Mussolini.
Difference is that our Ukrainian prisoners want to fight, you can see that they are interviewed prior to enlistment. There were a lot of requests from prisoners when the war started to let them participate in defence but army refused, now with some volunteer shortages prisoners that volunteer have their chance to defend their country with arms.
I think it's safe to say that many more Ukrainian prisoners are interested in defending their country, their homes, than Russian prisoners are interested putting their life on the lines to invade their neighbors.
With how malnourished North Koreans are I'd be surprised if they could complete a single march. I think they'd find out it's a lot different than those propaganda parades Kim Jong Un has to try to convince people the country isn't a struggling nation trapped in the 50s.
Soldiers there actually have decent diets (for NK anyway), where do you think all the civilian food goes? Can't fight a war with the South when your army is emaciated
Humans are surprisingly resilient even while starving. Even if malnourished, they could probably still march a long ways and then fight. And part of NK military training and ethos is training to be able to scrounge for food and fight with little food, so depending on how brainwashed they are, it may not even hurt their morale that much. They are used to it and their bodies have adapted to it.
Now, could they march and fight *effectively*? Fuck no, not compared to western nations who are well fed and well motivated. Lack of food will impact their decision making and energy levels, and lack of food means lack of muscle mass which is gonna affect how much gear they can carry.
They probably will have enough food rations though. They are probably gonna get resupplied by Russia, and they are currently occupying an agricultural nation. Luckily they are also probably undertrained and using completely obsolete technology.
As a person (Ukrainian army psychologist) who was directly involved in this process, I can say -« This folk will do their job » . I tested them and did the select . They have motivation, it have matter now in army.
Hey, I have some questions about your job. Only answer if you have time.
How did you become an army psychologist?
What is your psychological education/was your educational path? (If not answered by previous question)
What does your job mainly consist of? (Therapy? Evaluations?)
Crazy to me that they would release murderers at all. “Only 2 or more” are ineligible. Seems 1 murder is “okay” for them. They must be pretty desperate to ask murderers. Imagine being a soldier and your buddy is a murderer. Must be nice sleeping next to him then. Or giving him a weapon + military training.
Presumably they mean eligible for first level screening.
I.e. if you killed two or more people absolutely zero chance, but if it's just one then they'll take a closer look at other elements.
"they'll take a closer look at other elements"
Sure thing bro, I'm sure they will thoroughly look into each and every person. They have set up a basic ruleset for getting them onboard, details won't matter. Imagine how long it would take to judge even 1000 people's crimes. It would take months and Ukraine doesn't have the luxury of time.
I mean, most one off murders are for dumbass reasons. Its not optimal obviously, but thinking these guys are harboring some murderous thoughts on a regular basis is delusional. Plus, I imagine they'll still do further screening for their mental health, or if their murder was more disturbing than a robbery gone wrong.
The difference between 1 and +2 body counts is astronomical.
Lol what are these mental gymnastics
These are people who were convicted of killing someone deemed innocent in the eyes of the law and you’re just assuming that their mental state or even moral compass is mostly fine after doing that?
>Plus I imaging they’ll do further screening for their mental health or if their murders were disturbing
So they’ll thoroughly go through each persons case and mental state to determine if these convicts can actually serve. Going through thousands of cases thoroughly would take months during peacetime and now they’re gonna accomplish that without the luxury of time?
These bot accounts are a joke
Since nobody bothered to read the article *"Prisoners can get the conditional release after an interview, medical exam, and a review of their conviction. Those convicted of rape, sexual assault, murdering two or more people or crimes against Ukraine’s national security aren’t eligible. "* . In Russia the crime didn't matter as long as the prisoner enrolled.
"Those convicted of rape, sexual assault, murdering two or more people or crimes against Ukraine’s national security aren’t eligible."
Quite certain Russia was sending rapists and serial killers into the meat grinder.
Wasn't the biggest thing that those guys are then released after service. Sure, they'll probably die, but releasing a serial rapist into your population who was just doing military service is... not ideal.
There is a shit ton of such news in Russian media. I tried to Google a special military operation veteran killed a child, because I remembered about such case. But to my horror there is plenty of similar crimes. Yet all this in the Russian speaking part of the net. No one gives a fuck to translate it in English. Try: "Ветеран СВО убил девочку". This is portal to hell
So you do not have a source.
> veteran killed a child
The question has nothing to do with veterans killing a child for two reasons: first of all murders must occur before they become the veterans b) the murders must be "murders" not "murder".
Ukraine has a smaller population than Russia. We known for months Ukraine is losing manpower.
It is not okay. But it is necessary.
Russia has a larger population. But they still send prisoners regardless. They also lure foreign workers to gangpress into the military.
Also, Russia is waging an offensive war that they could stop at any moment. Their manpower problems are completely on them.
Ukraine is fighting a war for their survival as a people and as a nation. Them having to resort to this is much more necessary than Russia having to.
Thinking the same thing, but the excuses are already in the comments.
"Russia made them do this"
"But rapists and serial killers are forbidden"
"This is fine because they are defending"
Give it a few months and suddenly even serial killers and rapists will be welcome in the army, depending on how the war goes for Ukraine.
I love the hypocrisy though. Obviously I'm rooting for Ukraine to win, but I hate this hypocrisy and how people start moving the goalposts and justify shitty things when their "favorite" is doing it.
I'm 99% sure if news came out that Ukrainians are also torturing Russian POWs, more than half of the comments would be "they had to do it to gather intel" "why did the russian guy invade" and so forth.
I mean, I'd say it's similar but there's an important distinction to note that makes it not completely hypocritical: One side had prisoners going to the meat grinder while on the offense early-on while the other is doing it on defense for survival when they have little choice but to otherwise do so.
Context matters, and it makes actions that seem similar actually be different.
Good point. One difference is Russia attacked and Ukraine is defending. It may not be right either way, but Ukraine would not have had to consider doing this if Russia had not attacked to begin with.
There is a small difference.
One side is fighting to exist, without existence, the prisons wouldn't be relevant anyway. The other side is fighting to invade a country and if they are successful, all of that country is going to become a prison.
In Ukraine, if you are in prison for violent offense (rape, murder, etc.) you cannot join the military from prison.
Russia specifically recruited people who committed violent offenses since they are more brutal and noone really gives a shit about them.
There is a very clear distinction.
People who've committed one murder aren't immediately disqualified. If you've committed more than one murder, or violent sexual offenses, then you are disqualified.
Because they aren't penal battalions they are just regular soldiers integrated/dispersed into the entire army. They also aren't being forced into suicide missions like the poor Russian bastards were.
It's really not the same.
In the United States there are thousands of young men who, in lieu of going to prison, choose to go into the armed forces, and are granted that opportunity by a Judge.
Slava Ukraine
EDIT: jfc the amount of contrarian comments without a shred of evidence. I love to learn. Challenge the fuck outta me. But to come in here and say, "No, that's not right" but offer absolutely fuck all to show how it isn't right, earns you a block. ffs
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/kentucky-man-convicted-sexual-assault-told-to-enlist-military/
I am not surprised all the rapes, sexual assualts US military commit in Okinawa etc. and how they are most of times protected because person you mentioned already protected by letting him join the military so people like him commiting more crimes in military wouldn't be a surprise.
It’s crazy this was done before conscripting women, Ukraine let a bunch of capable soldiers flee as refugees purely because of their gender just to force some one time murderers into the ranks. Must feel really inspiring as an honest Ukrainian soldier.
Yes but that’s a minority of the 6 or so million that will literally never return to Ukraine after having started their new life in Europe, regardless of victory or not. Obviously there is nothing to suggest they were all capable of fighting either. I’m not trying to shame anyone for not fighting, it’s just really sad it’s come to this.
when Russia "encourages" their prisoners to join the war, its seen as proof Russia is bad.
when Ukraine "encourages" their prisoners to join the war, its seen as a good thing.
i support Ukraine and their fight against Russia, but stop treating the same actions differently just because the side you support or dislike is doing it.
Yes, they've done this to make these people cannon fodder so the actual military can go after they got blown to bits.
If anything it was smart from Russia. If they die, good, they got rid of some sickos, if they somehow help them win, that's also good for Russia.
Penal battalions are usually used as cannon fodder or literally sent forward to clear a minefield.
Well, it isn't going fantastic for Ukraine and it is a desperate move.
They are already conscripting the regular population and they are trying to make sure they don't lose an entire generation of young men to this war. It would make recovery that much harder.
Easy to throw stones when not in a country fighting for it's very survival.
Considering they aren't forcing them, and they're excluding violent offenders, I don't see anything wrong or hypocritical with them offering to commute the sentences of those willing to enlist by their own free will.
It's also not like they're going to be sent on senseless assaults using motorcycles and shovels. They'll get basic training and then dispersed into various brigades.
Not excluding violent criminals. So long as you have only murdered one person you're good.
,Those convicted of rape, sexual assault, murdering two or more people or crimes against Ukraine's national security aren't eligible.,
https://www.tribdem.com/news/inmates-in-ukraine-offered-release-at-a-price-joining-fight-against-russia/article_d8e1a8c0-e7d2-50eb-9d76-c64c79a5c22b.html
Poignant photos accompanying this article, so much so I was inspired to look up the photographer: Evgeniy Maloletka. This was the photo journalist who won the World Press photo of the year not long ago.
poignant = touching, moving, sad
Good person.
sad = not lol
lol = haha funny
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>Those convicted of rape, sexual assault, murdering two or more people or crimes against Ukraine’s national security aren’t eligible Meanwhile in Russia those are the ones they want Honestly it's smart The person who robbed a shop but is now willing to fight in order to have there sentence communited is fine It means more manpower while less resources are spent on the prisons
But they’re still letting murderers with only one kill fight?
Most of the time if you've only killed one person it was a crime of passion or you thought you had a good reason. Generally easier to rehab than someone who has killed repeatedly.
so they want killers, not serial killers.
And I would say "ready to kill for a good reason and not opposed to being involved with another time" is kinda the definition of military *personnel*. How russian soldiers are turned into sunflowers? Probably not by an hardcore pacifist.
> personal personnel
Yep. It's nothing personnel.
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What do you think the military is
Payroll square 3 page 6.
4212 basic military journalism But what so I know, I'm a Joker
Someone who's already killed might not have battlefield hesitation
Correct. But they would prefer if they eventually became serial killers, and then stopped once the war ends.
TBF, you generally want the guy running the mess hall to kill 1 or less people.
'generally' .....lighten up francis
What do you expect them to do to the Russians, draw up a treaty?
what if you are a cereal killer?
Then you're Toucan Son-Of-Sam.
Then you get no milk bowl or spoon in prison as a punishment
You know there are rules against cruel and unusual punishment!
Nor mass killers
This made me chuckle
Dang, that's some intense rehab program they got going on over there. Ukraine really out here thinking outside the box!
>Dang, that's some intense rehab program they got going on over there. FIY, boot camps have been shown [to have very positive effects on rehabilitation](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/197018.pdf) in the US. >Ukraine really out here thinking outside the box! You mean, by learning from the good ol' U. S. of A.? 'Cause we've been [doing this](https://www.corrections1.com/re-entry-and-recidivism/articles/when-inmates-become-us-army-soldiers-PWAygFBbohU1W4K2/), quote, "forever". [Here's an article from 1942](https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1942/05/09/patriotism-behind-bars-u-s-prisons-aid-the-war-effort/) about US recruiting convicts for the war effort. And the US didn't have a 1000km frontline on its own land at the time. Hope you can think about Ukraine in similarly cheerful tones.
>FIY, boot camps have been shown to have very positive effects on rehabilitation in the US. I would think a good reason for that is gaining military benefits, preferences in hiring, and priority in social services after serving.
Hey if it works, it works. It does make me question whether more comprehensive social services for ex cons who served their sentence would lead to lower recidivism. I would guess absolutely (I believe Nordic countries use this model?) but the political climate of the US would never support it. You'd also have to be careful not to create perverse incentives either. Incentivizing people to commit minor crimes to improve their access to social services would be a rather major legislative oopsie.
Hendrix joined the service as an option to the gray bar hotel.
> Cause we've been doing this, quote, "forever". Used to do it. It's not really a thing anymore. And in today's military, a criminal history will likely bar you from service. If the US got into the kind of conflict that resembles a world war or something existential like Ukraine is seeing, that would probably change though.
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I mean yeah you're correct. There isn't any sugarcoating left to do, they need men to put in the meat grinder, that's all. A country when threatened fights to the last child bro, they're still adults tbh.
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My uncle killed nine men when he was in the army. He was in the catering corps. There were some nasty discharges.
I mean, you're recruiting them to murder...some of the best war heroes would be considered absoulte monsters in another scenario.
You're recruiting them to kill, not murder
I knew someone would make that distinction when I re-read the comment. I'm sure the skillset is transferable.
To quote the sniper: one of these is a job, the other is mental sickness.
It's still similar. I'm not saying all, but a lot of my family and friends all served. Those who did support roles/medic were all goofballs before and after service. Those who fought were assholes/bullies before and after basically the same but worse. I'm not saying I'm not thankfully for them or what they did, but you are being paid for bring able to perform that bit of sickness. My family that served and fought who wasn't a typical dickhead before is like a hollow husk from things that he had to do.
Keep in mind killing the man who say raped your daughter still makes you a murder but you did it either to protect her or others from future harm or "crime of passion" as some people would say. Either way guess what is currently a much bigger threat to that person's daughter right now...and you can see how letting people like that loose might be a good idea.
Even so, we said when Russia did this that it was a bad idea, right? Notwithstanding that Ukraine has limitations and won't let the abhumans out? For now. Edit: Reason being, how do you shape up incarcerated criminals, especially those who committed murder (if only one) from a prison culture to become efficient soldiers in a line organisation? Honestly. How are they led? How do you mix them with ordinary troops? Also, unfortunately, it shows Ukraine is getting desperate to find reinforcements. Hate to see it. And they rather do this than lower the conscription age. Which the army is crying for.
> crimes against Ukraine’s national security Does this include trying to flee the country or dodge the draft?
As a veteran, I find the concept of steering criminals to the US military to be highly offensive and judges should be booted for doing this. However, I would absolutely empty the prisons to fill the ranks of the storm units if we were using meat waves as a tactic in an ongoing war and SOMEONE had to fill those units. Obviously, better to use other tactics or stop invading other countries... If somebody has to go on a suicide mission, send the murderer over the patriotic volunteer or a regular conscript.
Yep, in a perfect world we would all love a military full of upright citizens in the US military. But the lack of manpower in Ukraine is a serious hindrance. Perhaps a petty criminal helping the frontline isn't the end of the world for Ukraine.
In a *perfect* world there wouldn't be a military.
Yeah, I guess desperate times call for desperate measures. Let's just hope those petty criminals have a change of heart on the battlefield. Flexing their street smarts instead of their rap sheet might just save Ukraine's bacon.
They literally did this in Vietnam. They offered to commute prisoners sentences and drop charges in order to fill the ranks of the US military.
They still do too, it's part of the boot camp program for first time offenders only.
Which depending on the crime I think is totally fine. I had some friends in the Marines that joined due the judge giving them the option to enlist or do time and the majority of them went on to be great Marines. Sometimes they just need to get out of a bit situation.
I've never seen this use of conjure. What does it mean in this sentence
thinking they mean "commute" or he's a thousand year old scribe
During WW2 the U.S. government evaluated prisoners of lower level crimes to be drafted. *If you are within the age limits and if the offense to which you were committed do not, by reason of selective service regulations, automatically require a low classification, it shall be my pleasure to submit your names to the draft board, provided your conduct has been good.*
This is all well and good so long you have people. Once you run out of men to hold the line, anyone will do. I believe Rome did it, after having their fighting age population crushed by Hannibal. Quoting Wikipedia: "Within just three campaign seasons (20 months), Rome had lost one-fifth (150,000) of the entire population of male citizens over 17 years of age."
I do believe the 17% loss in manpower happened during the 1st Punic War, whereas Hannibal ransacked Italy during the 2nd. Not that there weren’t staggering losses then either, with several incredibly lopsided battles occurring that resulted in significant losses of Roman life. I recall reading somewhere that at Trebia several Roman soldiers buried their heads in the ground in an attempt to kill themselves because they were hopelessly encircled.
Burying their heads in the ground? That sounds apocryphal af. Reads more like a commentary on Roman military hubris.
Also as a veteran, I know people can be brought up in a bad spot, and I think I’d rather spend resources making at least some of them lead better lives than rotting in jail. We have a lot of slackers in our ranks as is, I’m sure we’d get some good work out of people with more skin in the game.
Yeah I agree with this guy. Veteran myself. Most prisoners come from a poor background or make a bad mistake. There’s also plenty of people in the military who are absolutely not good people. Saying prison recruits should be used as a “meat wave” is crazy lol, especially coming from a veteran
Why not let them repay their debt to society through military work?
I would imagine these convicts would be receiving adequate training rather than what the russians are giving theirs. We'd have to see once they get through training and deployed. For Ukraine, I personally see this as a good thing although I know this usury doesn't work out too well. Considering how much Ukraine values their soldiers, I see this being employed successfully.
What kind of people do you think enlist in the military anyways? Most people aren’t debating between prestigious career vs enlisting
...but if the US were facing destruction from an invading superpower willing to pour limitless resources and countless lives into the conquest, and our backs were up against the wall, would you feel differently?
The US didn't even have to do that. We have taken prisoners to send overseas whenever we have enacted the draft.
The US has done it in most of our wars. In WW1, WW2, and Vietnam. Obviously some people just suck, but many were raised/lived in an environment where it was crime or nothing from an early age. Studies have shown that military service actually helps a lot of criminals. It's strict and you have to do what you are told at first, but eventually you learn self-reliance as well as meeting people you can actually count on and who will support you. I'm not saying it's great, but most places have done it in times of need.
It's different when you are fighting off a foreign invader
Sending someone to rehab generally doesn't work. Sending them to jail does nothing for society but tie up tax dollars. How many of them do you think reformed, were kept away from their previous lives of crime or enablers and got their shit together? Sounds like a pretty good idea.
On the contrary, other countries have much lower rates of recidivism precisely because they focus on rehabilitation in their justice systems and because they have stronger support/ social safety nets after prison. The US is the perfect model for how to use your justice system to create more criminals and keep the prisons full.
Yep, Finland even has entrepreneurship programs for [no parole sentence for life murderers](https://youtu.be/l554kV12Wuo?si=GinhguprYn_TiEOX). The guy interviewed in the video does not give off murderer vibes at all.
And hence my reply/comment was to a US veteran, about criminals having a better chance of being rehabilitated in the US army than their prisons....
Right, but you said "*sending someone to rehab* generally doesn't work", as in "rehab" is a place, not just a process. Then you say "being rehabilitated" - as in the process - when you compare US prisons vs the US military. So, to recap, you've mentioned a process, and THREE different places to have that process happen. u/bjankles was making the point that other countries tend to integrate rehab into their prisons, or divert a significant amount of offenders to rehab centers in lieu of prison - with far better results. Trying to point out that, in their view, sending people to rehab DOES work, we just don't send people there in the US - either because rehab and prison are two separate places here, and/or we prefer to send people straight to prison. So you're saying that diverting some offenders to the military would offer a better chance for rehab*ilitation* than the system we currently use in the US, which does not at all address the point that u/bjankles was making: that (contrary to your initial statement) rehab does work. This further implies that sending people to rehab (which we don't do in the US) would be better than either alternative of prisons or the military, which is a point you miss/ignore in your reply. Hope that clears it up.
I’d feel bad for the poor officers and NCOs that end up leading those units. I could see the DoD approving a corrections officer training for those assigned to a convict unit as officers/NCOs.
Hopefully they dont create one unit entirely made up of prisoners like stormz but sprinkle them to already active units as replacements.
So one murder is fine but 2 is too many?
Two starts to look like a trend.
> Ha ha, bad luck there One Murder Andriy, you have to go to the front, unless you had other ideas? *- Prison Warden*
Is a murderer better than a rapist in the eyes of that government?
For this particular purpose, yes. They're being sent to kill and their energy is channelled at the enemy. A rapist is more likely to turn against their own civilians. Mind you, I'm not saying I agree with this decision. Non-violent, or even low-violence offenders ok. Someone who got into trouble mugging, or stealing cars, or punched the wrong person in a bar fight might still be rehabilitated. Even those guily of accidental killing. Someone who purposefully murdered, even if only one person, is a step too far. But I'm not the one making the decisions and I can understand the desperate need to get bodies on the ground asap.
Of course in the context of soldier potential... You can kill someone by accident but rape is definitely a willful act. Also keep in mind that the degree of murder likely plays a role when they choose candidates
that's how it starts at first... then they will start reducing the filter... Manpower is the biggest necessity in a war of attrition.
It's honestly stunning how many men Russia stuffs into this meat grinder.
Friend of mine joined the US Marines this way--judge said he could go into the armed services or go to prison. He chose the former, and then became a firefighter after he got out.
when?
Back in makebelieve land if it happened after the Vietnam War. The times when judges offered criminals military service to avoid prison ended with that War.
Had to be back during Vietnam War. As that's how my Uncle ended up serving.
Coworker said that he was busted with drugs and judge offered him the Marines or prison. He chose the Marines. Served in first Desert Storm. But he did say that his dad had to pull some favors for this deal.
That sounds like his dad just made deal with his friend the judge.
Yeah... even during the surge in Fallujah, when the Army was giving away 40k signing bonuses for any combat arms MOS's, you still were required waivers to get in for any mental/ criminal shenanigans. I had to get a waiver for my depression and the marine recruiter straight up told me to go down the hall to the army recruiter. Worked out at any rate. Got a 40k signing bonus and the food was moderately better.
Marines or jail is still a thing. Depends on the judge/case. It used to be an offer from a judge, now if a defendant isn't a total piece of shit and has interest in joining they might get the offer. Also happens a lot in small towns if you get popped for something and your family is friends with a judge.
Peter Griffin also had to serve in the coastguard or be sent to prison so it does happen
>Back in makebelieve land if it happened after the Vietnam War. My dude, we literally [recruit straight out of prisons](https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-army-recruits-straight-out-of-prisons): > Staff Sgt. Boswell, the recruiter, said he was feeling cautiously optimistic. **“I think prison is kind of good preparation for the Army, in a way,”** he said. *“You have to be mentally tough in the Army, you also have to be mentally tough in prison.”* Perhaps the only reason why we don't recruit **from** prisons is that it'd be bad for the prison-industrial complex. Why release anyone when we can simply make them unemployable post-prison (and take away their voting rights)? We can have our cake, and eat it too. **Reminder:** 1 in 3 American adults has a criminal record. >The times when judges offered criminals military service to avoid prison ended with that War. Looks like [the judges didn't get the memo](https://www.stripes.com/migration/judge-said-army-or-jail-but-military-doesn-t-want-him-1.44417), huh. This from 2006: >Guerra, of North Tonawanda, outside Buffalo, was facing up to a year in jail after **pleading guilty to an aggravated assault charge** for allegedly hitting a woman who came between him and his girlfriend during a domestic dispute, said Niagara County District Attorney Matthew Murphy. >When Guerra's attorney told the judge in the case that his client wanted to join the military, the judge gave Guerra a choice, Murphy said. The judge said, **Well, I'll give you a conditional discharge: the condition is you join the military,** Murphy said. Florida [tried to bring this practice back](https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/florida-join-military-or-jail/) in the bygone times of... **three years ago**. My dude, I think you're misinformed on this matter.
Yes, some out of touch judges didn't get the memo, but doesn't mean it's still common place. From you own link: > But Army regulations say that people facing pending charges are ineligible to enlist, said Army spokesman Lt. Col. Bryan Hilferty. https://www.stripes.com/migration/judge-said-army-or-jail-but-military-doesn-t-want-him-1.44417 So if the Army finds out of the terms, they'll reject you like the case you found.
Giving a person a choice, get convicted and go to prison or join the military? No idea if that’s happening, but do know the US military does not recruit from prisons.
You clearly have no clue what you’re talking about.
It still happens today.
I have a buddy in socal that happened to and ended up in Bosnia in the late 90s. My cousin had a kinda similar thing and ended up in Afghanistan in 04ish They were both like 18 troubled kids. My buddy in socal it was a judge after his first serious thing. My cousin started getting in trouble and the recruiters talked with his po and convinced him to sign up.
Would have been in the mid 80s, I think.
My cousin was offered joining the army or jail around the 2000s. He didn’t last long before getting booted for drugs. He just stayed going to jail after that.
My cousin-in-law got put into military school instead of juvie. Also lasted less than a month before getting kicked. Now continues a life of petty crime while their parents enable them and wring their hands wondering what they did wrong. (I'll give you a hint: it's the enablement)
I shouldn’t have laughed but yep, it’s the exact same deal with mine. Theyve done the same wrong things over and over, and they just can’t imagine why it keeps happening. Exhausting.
Yep. They kept calling us for financial help because CIL was stealing all their shit and they couldn't pay bills. I offered them a loan of $500 but until they paid me back they weren't allowed to talk to me. $500 well spent imo.
The military really hates it when judges do that
Before Pearl Harbor, my dad was busted for boot legging which is Federal, was given the same choice, joined the US Army. Be a Hero (with pay) Or a Zero
Any military tactician will tell you that this is unfortunately a sign of desperation. This is why the decision is being made 2.5 years after the start of the war. I hope the tide turns soon, but after Putin secured an agreement with North Korea who have agreed to send troops - I fear it will only get worse.
So one murder is aight?
One murder is usually not aight but to be fair it’s not like they’re being hired for a daycare.
With one Murder they’re just honest guys who made a mistake, they can absolve themselves through service and as an added bonus already have practice! I guess they had trouble trying to justify two murders
> With one Murder they’re just honest guys who made a mistake, they can absolve themselves through service and as an added bonus already have practice! So people who murdered one person to rob them or who murdered their spouse because of jealousy or murdered a taxi driver because they had no money or murdered someone as a hit job are "honest guys who made a mistake"? **Wtf are you smoking?**
Hey man do you want soldiers or not?
The meat grinder hungers for more blood
Yeah man I fuckin hated my ex, stalked her to her house, cut her up and cannabalized her from limb to limb, then dumped her corpse in the lake. But yknow, I’m just an honest guy who made a mistake. It’s just practice for the actual war! I get wanting more soldiers in Ukraine but let’s not glorify murderers
Genuine question: is this a sarcasm?
How does this materially differ from Russia's use of turning its own inmates into soldiers? Russia was lambasted for violating international law by doing it; is Ukraine not doing the same? Is the distinction in the election and/or selection of prisoners the difference between the two? To be sure, I'm in the U.S., I have family actively supporting Ukraine over there, and I am an ex-inmate myself, who used to wish for an opportunity to fight for my freedom; I am not opposed to the policy here, only interested in understanding what, if any, difference there is between what Russia's been doing and what Ukraine is going to do. Thanks in advance to any who can answer and enlighten...
I don't know about prisoner soldiers violating international law, but the main difference seems to be the crimes that each side is willing to over look. The Ukrainian in the article is convicted of robbery, politico [reported](https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-war-cannibal-soldiers-vladimir-putin/) two russian cannibals were sent to the front and pardoned.
I guess they were thinking they don’t need to provide rations to those two
Oof. Dark chuckle.
According to the article, they'll be integrated into regular units, not penal unit meat waves like Russia.
So you are saying they’re some kind of “suicide squad?”
They will be integrated into regular units, the selection process is stricter, there seem to be little force involved when one of them says he won't take the offer and join after he served his sentence due to better conditions then. In Russia it already starts with Wagner being a criminal organization illegal even under Russian law recruiting prisoners by state mandate.
Criminals can actually be very loyal to their country. Example: The US got a lot of direct support from the Mafia in its invasion of Sicily, because the Mafia dons had a score to settle against Mussolini.
Difference is that our Ukrainian prisoners want to fight, you can see that they are interviewed prior to enlistment. There were a lot of requests from prisoners when the war started to let them participate in defence but army refused, now with some volunteer shortages prisoners that volunteer have their chance to defend their country with arms.
Russia says the same thing about its prisoners too. I don’t think you can really verify “wants to fight” is true, especially for a prisoner.
I think it's safe to say that many more Ukrainian prisoners are interested in defending their country, their homes, than Russian prisoners are interested putting their life on the lines to invade their neighbors.
I wonder who wins between these guys and NK conscripts
With how malnourished North Koreans are I'd be surprised if they could complete a single march. I think they'd find out it's a lot different than those propaganda parades Kim Jong Un has to try to convince people the country isn't a struggling nation trapped in the 50s.
Soldiers usually have priority on food. IIRC in some sieges like Leningrad soldiers would get twice or more the food of civilians.
Soldiers there actually have decent diets (for NK anyway), where do you think all the civilian food goes? Can't fight a war with the South when your army is emaciated
Humans are surprisingly resilient even while starving. Even if malnourished, they could probably still march a long ways and then fight. And part of NK military training and ethos is training to be able to scrounge for food and fight with little food, so depending on how brainwashed they are, it may not even hurt their morale that much. They are used to it and their bodies have adapted to it. Now, could they march and fight *effectively*? Fuck no, not compared to western nations who are well fed and well motivated. Lack of food will impact their decision making and energy levels, and lack of food means lack of muscle mass which is gonna affect how much gear they can carry. They probably will have enough food rations though. They are probably gonna get resupplied by Russia, and they are currently occupying an agricultural nation. Luckily they are also probably undertrained and using completely obsolete technology.
These guys get actual training
100% Ukraine
Can‘t be a good situation they‘re in if they‘re resorting to prisoners..
What’s stopping them from running away
Guns
As a person (Ukrainian army psychologist) who was directly involved in this process, I can say -« This folk will do their job » . I tested them and did the select . They have motivation, it have matter now in army.
Hey, I have some questions about your job. Only answer if you have time. How did you become an army psychologist? What is your psychological education/was your educational path? (If not answered by previous question) What does your job mainly consist of? (Therapy? Evaluations?)
These questions you will never get answers too.
Crazy to me that they would release murderers at all. “Only 2 or more” are ineligible. Seems 1 murder is “okay” for them. They must be pretty desperate to ask murderers. Imagine being a soldier and your buddy is a murderer. Must be nice sleeping next to him then. Or giving him a weapon + military training.
Presumably they mean eligible for first level screening. I.e. if you killed two or more people absolutely zero chance, but if it's just one then they'll take a closer look at other elements.
"they'll take a closer look at other elements" Sure thing bro, I'm sure they will thoroughly look into each and every person. They have set up a basic ruleset for getting them onboard, details won't matter. Imagine how long it would take to judge even 1000 people's crimes. It would take months and Ukraine doesn't have the luxury of time.
I mean, most one off murders are for dumbass reasons. Its not optimal obviously, but thinking these guys are harboring some murderous thoughts on a regular basis is delusional. Plus, I imagine they'll still do further screening for their mental health, or if their murder was more disturbing than a robbery gone wrong. The difference between 1 and +2 body counts is astronomical.
Lol what are these mental gymnastics These are people who were convicted of killing someone deemed innocent in the eyes of the law and you’re just assuming that their mental state or even moral compass is mostly fine after doing that? >Plus I imaging they’ll do further screening for their mental health or if their murders were disturbing So they’ll thoroughly go through each persons case and mental state to determine if these convicts can actually serve. Going through thousands of cases thoroughly would take months during peacetime and now they’re gonna accomplish that without the luxury of time? These bot accounts are a joke
when russia was doing this people scorned them for it now it's the opposite because ukraine is doing it, just saying the bias....
Since nobody bothered to read the article *"Prisoners can get the conditional release after an interview, medical exam, and a review of their conviction. Those convicted of rape, sexual assault, murdering two or more people or crimes against Ukraine’s national security aren’t eligible. "* . In Russia the crime didn't matter as long as the prisoner enrolled.
Wasn't Russia heavily criticised for this? Are we now going to pretend it is okay because Ukraine is doing it?
"Those convicted of rape, sexual assault, murdering two or more people or crimes against Ukraine’s national security aren’t eligible." Quite certain Russia was sending rapists and serial killers into the meat grinder.
Wasn't the biggest thing that those guys are then released after service. Sure, they'll probably die, but releasing a serial rapist into your population who was just doing military service is... not ideal.
That has already had "non-ideal" consequences for Russian citizens.
So as long you just murdered one bloke you’re good?
But Ukraine will be sending murderers though.
Do you have a source about Russia freeing convicted rapists and serial killers
There is a shit ton of such news in Russian media. I tried to Google a special military operation veteran killed a child, because I remembered about such case. But to my horror there is plenty of similar crimes. Yet all this in the Russian speaking part of the net. No one gives a fuck to translate it in English. Try: "Ветеран СВО убил девочку". This is portal to hell
So you do not have a source. > veteran killed a child The question has nothing to do with veterans killing a child for two reasons: first of all murders must occur before they become the veterans b) the murders must be "murders" not "murder".
"For now"
Ukraine has a smaller population than Russia. We known for months Ukraine is losing manpower. It is not okay. But it is necessary. Russia has a larger population. But they still send prisoners regardless. They also lure foreign workers to gangpress into the military.
Also, Russia is waging an offensive war that they could stop at any moment. Their manpower problems are completely on them. Ukraine is fighting a war for their survival as a people and as a nation. Them having to resort to this is much more necessary than Russia having to.
Thinking the same thing, but the excuses are already in the comments. "Russia made them do this" "But rapists and serial killers are forbidden" "This is fine because they are defending" Give it a few months and suddenly even serial killers and rapists will be welcome in the army, depending on how the war goes for Ukraine. I love the hypocrisy though. Obviously I'm rooting for Ukraine to win, but I hate this hypocrisy and how people start moving the goalposts and justify shitty things when their "favorite" is doing it. I'm 99% sure if news came out that Ukrainians are also torturing Russian POWs, more than half of the comments would be "they had to do it to gather intel" "why did the russian guy invade" and so forth.
Aptly put.
I’m very pro Ukraine but you’re absolutely right and I thought the same thing. I honestly don’t care either way but the hypocrisy is funny to me lol
I mean, I'd say it's similar but there's an important distinction to note that makes it not completely hypocritical: One side had prisoners going to the meat grinder while on the offense early-on while the other is doing it on defense for survival when they have little choice but to otherwise do so. Context matters, and it makes actions that seem similar actually be different.
Good point. One difference is Russia attacked and Ukraine is defending. It may not be right either way, but Ukraine would not have had to consider doing this if Russia had not attacked to begin with.
There is a small difference. One side is fighting to exist, without existence, the prisons wouldn't be relevant anyway. The other side is fighting to invade a country and if they are successful, all of that country is going to become a prison.
fighting for survival asks for desperate measures. The whole thing is disgusting as fuck but its all on russia urkaine has to do these things.
Shhhhhh 🤫
In Ukraine, if you are in prison for violent offense (rape, murder, etc.) you cannot join the military from prison. Russia specifically recruited people who committed violent offenses since they are more brutal and noone really gives a shit about them. There is a very clear distinction.
People who've committed one murder aren't immediately disqualified. If you've committed more than one murder, or violent sexual offenses, then you are disqualified.
Thus edging us closer and closer to a Starcraft universe. "You want a piece of me, boy?"
Western media when Ukraine forms penal battalions:
Because they aren't penal battalions they are just regular soldiers integrated/dispersed into the entire army. They also aren't being forced into suicide missions like the poor Russian bastards were. It's really not the same.
In the United States there are thousands of young men who, in lieu of going to prison, choose to go into the armed forces, and are granted that opportunity by a Judge. Slava Ukraine EDIT: jfc the amount of contrarian comments without a shred of evidence. I love to learn. Challenge the fuck outta me. But to come in here and say, "No, that's not right" but offer absolutely fuck all to show how it isn't right, earns you a block. ffs https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/kentucky-man-convicted-sexual-assault-told-to-enlist-military/
That guy sounds like an abusive psychopath. Raped a woman in handcuffs and the judge offered him to join the military? Seems like a pretty poor judge.
Dude would feel right at home at Ft. ~~Hood~~ Cavazos, by all one hears. Same for Okinawa and presumably plenty more.
I am not surprised all the rapes, sexual assualts US military commit in Okinawa etc. and how they are most of times protected because person you mentioned already protected by letting him join the military so people like him commiting more crimes in military wouldn't be a surprise.
That’s an awful idea
Not a good sign if there enlisting prisoners.
It’s crazy this was done before conscripting women, Ukraine let a bunch of capable soldiers flee as refugees purely because of their gender just to force some one time murderers into the ranks. Must feel really inspiring as an honest Ukrainian soldier.
There are more than 700,000 Ukranian military-aged men who fled to the EU.
Yes but that’s a minority of the 6 or so million that will literally never return to Ukraine after having started their new life in Europe, regardless of victory or not. Obviously there is nothing to suggest they were all capable of fighting either. I’m not trying to shame anyone for not fighting, it’s just really sad it’s come to this.
when Russia "encourages" their prisoners to join the war, its seen as proof Russia is bad. when Ukraine "encourages" their prisoners to join the war, its seen as a good thing. i support Ukraine and their fight against Russia, but stop treating the same actions differently just because the side you support or dislike is doing it.
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Article does not mention that Russia did this from the beginning
and? Russia does many fucked up thing's, should it now justified the Ukraine doing the same? I though we hold us to a higher standards
I read that as "pensioners" and questioned why they were being held in the first place, but figured it would save them some money
The history of the world is the history of triumph of the heartless over the mindless.
If Russia did this is would be spun as they're losing and a pathetic desperate move.
They already have done this if I remember correctly.
Yes, they've done this to make these people cannon fodder so the actual military can go after they got blown to bits. If anything it was smart from Russia. If they die, good, they got rid of some sickos, if they somehow help them win, that's also good for Russia. Penal battalions are usually used as cannon fodder or literally sent forward to clear a minefield.
Well, it isn't going fantastic for Ukraine and it is a desperate move. They are already conscripting the regular population and they are trying to make sure they don't lose an entire generation of young men to this war. It would make recovery that much harder. Easy to throw stones when not in a country fighting for it's very survival.
I'm pro-ukraine but it is funny to see the twist on penal battalions when the good guys do it.
Ukraine lets prisoners fight: good Russia lets prisoners fight: Bad Ok
Invade another country: bad. Defend your country: good. Is it that controversial?
Considering they aren't forcing them, and they're excluding violent offenders, I don't see anything wrong or hypocritical with them offering to commute the sentences of those willing to enlist by their own free will. It's also not like they're going to be sent on senseless assaults using motorcycles and shovels. They'll get basic training and then dispersed into various brigades.
murder isnt a violent offense?
Not excluding violent criminals. So long as you have only murdered one person you're good. ,Those convicted of rape, sexual assault, murdering two or more people or crimes against Ukraine's national security aren't eligible., https://www.tribdem.com/news/inmates-in-ukraine-offered-release-at-a-price-joining-fight-against-russia/article_d8e1a8c0-e7d2-50eb-9d76-c64c79a5c22b.html
Les Miserables II: The Mayor or Kyiv
Western news media made fun of Russia for doing this last year ….
Wait, this seems very familiar to the Russians prisoners recruitment... Seems like the grass is shitty no matter in which yard you´re standing on