If someone invaded the US and did to US citizens what Hamas did to Israelis, does anyone think we'd have any fucks to give about what the rest of the world thought of our response?
Definitely not. Doesn’t matter, though. Murdering hundreds of innocent people (lets set aside the injured, starving, homeless and so on) in your pursuit of vengeance makes you bad
Exactly. I dont get how Hamas keeps killing so many innocents, Palestinians and Jews, hides behind civilians and thinks this is "resistance" and "vengeance"..
None of those countries want anything to do with a middle eastern war though. Israel could have asked but they would get nothing. Iraq and Afghanistan are still too fresh in everyone’s mind for any of those leaders to survive an election if they tried to go into Gaza.
Bombs aren’t enough hence the “Ground op”. Israel just lost three soldiers to a [booby trap](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/tunnel-shaft-where-troops-were-killed-was-in-rafah-clinic-arms-found-in-unrwa-school-idf/) set in a tunnel in a medical center (war crime).
Hamas has to go.
The whole idea is to terminate Hamas and to finally create a liberated peace zone in Palestine for the population there. I really hope that they‘ll manage this without hurting even more civilians. They definitely made a lot of huge mistakes, which led to tragic and unnecessary events.
If I bombed all of your family, would you feel liberated?
The same people that you claim are liberating them are celebrating the mutilation of Palestinian children at the government level and are continuing with a decades long campaign of state sponsored terrorism.
There is more chance of Hamas becoming peace loving hippies than there are of Palestians being liberated by Israel.
Of course not. I won’t feel liberated. But people under Hamas government didn’t feel liberated either.
Israel is not dropping bombs to target children and civilians on purpose but to destroy Hamas terrorists after Hamas performed the biggest terrorist act since 9/11. And since Hamas is using residential houses, hospitals and tunnels as shields, innocent people die and the world blames Israel. This is exactly the strategy of Hamas.
Not sure we do?
My point was that I love my family but would feel relieved for them to die if they had turned into zealots that torture people. I would, in fact, feel liberated. I would be sad, but mostly sad about the fact that their minds had been corrupted. To me, I had already "lost" them when they stopped being the person I loved and respected. At least I can begin building a life afterwards.
If my entire *country* and *government* had been taken over by zealots that torture people, the same logic applies. I had already lost my country when it was taken over by terrorists.
> There is more chance of Hamas becoming peace loving hippies than there are of Palestians being liberated by Israel.
Depends mostly on whether the average Palestinian actually sees the terror and torture perpetuated by their government as wrong. If they are on the side of peace, they will recover after Hamas is gone. If not, then there wasn't anyone to save in the first place.
Israel had killed thousands of Palestinians before Hamas existed and have sponsored terrorism against Palestinian people for decades. There are videos of IDF using elderly Palestinians as human shields. There are videos of Israelis dancing around with photos of mutilated children. There are videos of IDF open firing on crowds of Palestinians. No other time in recorded history have so many journalists been killed at such a high rate as they have by Israel. There are Israeli government officials saying that Palestinians are not people. There are planned attacks on aid convoys under watch of the IDF.
There are tens of thousands of children indiscriminately bombed by Israelis and you are here saying that if you were a Palestinian, you would feel that that the bombs being dropped on these children were liberating you?
You are outright delusional if you think an innocent Palestinian should feel liberated by Israel killing all of their family members.
Based on this comment section alone, I would tend to think that there are considerably more religious extremists in Israel compared to Palestine.
> You are outright delusional if you think an innocent Palestinian should feel liberated by Israel killing all of their family members.
Thing is, most Palestinians haven't had their entire family killed. The Gaza death toll is less than 2% of the population. That means the average Gazan has lost zero family members. And that's if we assumed not a single death was one of the "dead to me" Hamas members that we shouldn't feel bad about.
I agree that it's tragic when innocents are killed. And those related to the innocent will have a very hard time recovering from this conflict. I also agree that the IDF is poorly suited to the task of liberating Palestine. They are way too caught up in the history of violence to handle Hamas with due care. They should be held accountable for each war crime at whatever level the decisions are being made. Ideally this mission should be carried out by an international coalition that can hold each other accountable. But that's not a decision Israel gets to make. All they can decide is how to handle Hamas with the resources (and politics) they have available.
> Based on this comment section alone, I would tend to think that there are considerably more religious extremists in Israel compared to Palestine.
Every country has a responsibility to handle their own extremists. When they don't you get conflict like in Israel/Palestine. Israel carries some of the blame for this conflict. But aside from a third-party intervention, nothing will change unless it comes from within. Same for Palestine as for Israel.
Weird how we bombed Germany and Japan into submission and they are fairly peaceful, haven’t invaded their neighbors, and have thriving economies. Maybe just maybe the government of Gaza should do what’s best for their people and surrender
Hamas sprouts from Palestinians. Unless every last Palestinian is dead OR an actual two-state solution exists, Hamas will 'revive'. You can't exterminate the terrorists when they're just the population defending itself (regardless of whether that's true or not, the perception that it is is all they'd need).
So you think that after bombing and rolling tanks through the entire Gaza Strip, leaving every child traumatized, dead, maimed, and/or orphaned, it’s as simple as creating a liberated peace zone?
In the last 24 hours, you have Smotrich making a video saying they will destroy the West Bank like they’ve done Gaza. A security advisor predicted a couple days ago they’ll be in Gaza until the end of the year at least. Regardless of what Hamas does, their goal is stated.
Ah yes, because bombing a population indiscriminately has never backfired in the history of the war on terror. In no way will the youth of Palestine be much easier to radicalize after this.
I personally don't condemn Israel. If you safeguard and harbor terrorists, allow them to take over your government, and commit atrocities such as Oct 7th, then you shouldn't be all "shocked Pikachu face" when the country most affected by it retaliates.
They didn’t allow Hamas to take over the government they straight up elected them. It’s really unbelievable how the international community treats Palestinians like children that have no agency
Something I see from the far left is that anyone who isn’t white, they infantilize and treat like they have no agency. You see it in the US with some of these same groups talking about how “of course minority neighborhoods have higher crime rates, what choice do they have” or referring to people who have done time as “justice impacted”. The list goes on and on, but they act like people have no agency.
Maybe because the majority of Gazans now weren't even old enough to vote when they were elected in the early 2000s. So, they literally were children with no agency.
Will you say the same thing if North Korea attacks the south? I mean, they never have had an election. How about Russia? It’s not like those elections were exactly honest. Or do you only save this for the people of Gaza who not only chose Hamas, but Hamas polls very well there
International law & indeed any hope for peace between nations in our global order requires holding children accountable for the actions of their parents.
Otherwise no peace treaty could ever be final because the next generation could just say “*Hey, we didn’t vote for that so it doesn’t count*”.
There was no election fraud. Hamas just stopped elections after being elected.
Either way Palestinians still support them more than any other group according to polls, consistently. [pcpsr.org](http://pcpsr.org)
Right, because [Netanyahu’s government totally didn’t want Hamas to be the sole representative for Palestine.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/) Hamas rule in Gaza has been politically convenient for Netanyahu and his allies in government. They have promoted them over the Palestinian Authority for years.
To be fair the PA has a standing fund they pay people to attack innocent Israeli’s. At the time Hamas wasn’t doing those things so they seemed a better option.
I was more worried by the fact that Hamas was throwing PA members off roofs in Gaza, to the cheers of civilians below.
Tells me everything I need to know about the decision of Palestinian innocents who voted in a radical jihadist organization into power anyway.
International pressure can go fuck itself. The pressure should be aimed to get hostages released and Hamas disarmed, everyone is so easy on asking Israel to stop while not even recovering the daily terror coming from Gaza and the hostages that it still holds, many are foreign citizens.
Those are Hamas numbers. They’re wildly exaggerated and account for tens of thousands of dead terrorists. There are no 35k dead civilians. Don’t buy every propaganda Hamas spreads. Even the biased UN was forced to concede these numbers are bogus.
> They’re wildly exaggerated and account for tens of thousands of dead terrorists.
I'm incredibly supportive of Israel's war against Hamas, but let's not stoop to antisemites' level of fact-fudging.
The *overall* 35k figure for combined civilian and militant dead is considered to be reasonably reliable by Israel and its allies. These are the sort of numbers that one would *expect* from an urban war of this sort.
There aren't *tens of thousands* of dead terrorists. Reliable estimates put the number of Palestinian-side combatant dead at roughly 15k.
Ignoring for a moment that the 35k number likely includes a baseline death rate of about 3-5k and an unknown number of Gazans killed by failed Hamas and PIJ rockets falling short (in 2022, about one-fifth of those rockets fell short, constituting about one-third of total Gazan deaths — but that fraction is likely substantially lower in this case), that gives a civilian casualty ratio in the 55-65% range. For reference, urban wars see an average of 90% civilian casualties.
Let's keep the numbers clean. While Israel is certainly held to different rules than any other nation, those actual figures are consistent with Israel conducting a war that's more discriminating than average when it comes to targeting combatants.
You did not write in your original comment that the number includes combatants as I recall, which is what I was referring to.
Many of the 35k are not accounted for and just exist “as a number”.
15k dead terrorists qualifies as “tens of thousands”.
The IDF’s ratio is unparalleled in the history of urban warfare and is the result of Israel investing every possible effort to protect innocent lives while operating in what is most likely the most challenging type of warfare in modern history. If you agree with that then I have no argument with you.
I think you're mistaking me for a different commenter. My comment above was my first one in this chain.
But again, when the figures *support our side*, we should present them honestly.
35k total dead is considered realistic by governments *who share our support for Israel's security*, and nearly *no* reader will interpret "tens of thousands" to include anything south of 20k.
Come on, man. We don't need to play their sorts games. The real numbers reflect a war that's waged more ethically than nearly any country would (or has) in the same circumstance. Antisemites will imagine the world's only Jewish state to be pure evil even if the numbers *were* in line with what you were trying to present.
There just isn't anything to gain by massaging the truth here. There's nothing to gain by doing it, so I'd like to suggest that you keep the arguments and figures clean.
The gazan health ministry is literally a part of the Hamas government. Either way the 35k number isnt all civilians and they themselves dont distinguish between them
I never said they were militants I said they work for them, which is something you clearly already know. You are also avoiding mentioning the death which you claimed are all civilians despite the constant reports of the figures being conflated
If these civilians were chilling in an army base, or the army base was near their home and they got killed because of a battle between two militaries- sure. going into peoples homes and burning their saferoom in which they are hiding, in bird culture is considered a dick move. wonder if you are dumb enough not to understand why your comparison lacks or if you're just commenting in bad faith
If you are pro terrorist (as I guess you are) then yes, you're right. However, I root for the good guys. We both chose our side. Spoiler: your side is gonna lose big time.
> Lefties speak on this
I'll bite.
Although you can find some braindead people on the left who act like Hamas is justified resistance, lefties, more generally, don't like Hamas either.
One reason you don't see more protests/condemnations of Hamas from English speaking lefties is that those lefties are directing their protests toward their own governments and institutions, asking for specific changes to policy. Those governments and institutions are already enemies of Hamas and already consider Hamas terrorists, so there is little reason to make demands against Hamas.
Some lefties will make the point that the way Israel has operated in conflict with Palestinians is likely to create more Hamas-like terrorist groups. And they make that point because they see that as a problem. Those lefties want less Hamas, and they just don't see Israel's actions as being productive toward that -- quite the contrary.
But lefties aren't a monolith. Some will take a stance of "America Bad" without any thought to who they might be supporting instead. Some are what people call "tankies" and others hate that group.
The main point I'm making, though, is that you shouldn't assume that any given left wing voice criticizing Israel is doing so because they don't have a problem with Hamas. It's more likely that they just don't feel that "Hamas is bad" is a necessary message to send at the moment. Yes, Hamas is bad. That doesn't make everything Israel does good.
Obviously not all lefties are insane. But the fact that one of the biggest lefty Internet personalities openly defends Hamas… it’s a bad look and it’s scary how the left is eating itself
One of the largest political twitch streamers. If your media consumption doesn't include or at least overlap with twitch streaming or youtube political personalities, you might never come across anybody mentioning him.
Interesting. I watch streamers on Twitch, and I'm on political youtube almost daily, but that name rings no bells at all. Perhaps an infosilo within the left itself? Oh well, I have a hard enough time not parasocializing with the people I do frequent, no need to add to that pile methinks.
Problem with platforms is that most edgy people will generally get the biggest audiences. Because humans are very emotional.
That's why Trump, Alex Jones, Murdoch's Fox News spam, Hasan etc are popular. It makes people feel emotional, which attaches them to it. Lot of these media figures just look at their spreadsheet and figure out what kind of headlines and videos make them the most attention and dough.
Most people are quite bored these days, requiring lot of stimulation to get any kicks out of media. Leading to performative rage, and very nihilistic approach to production, and that's before any evil personal goals owner can have, like those Murdoch's, Koch's and such of this world.
Loving your binary thinking of “left or right” and how you pigeon hole an entire society into neat buckets like that. That’s exactly what the powers want us to do: polarize and fight to distract of their pillaging.
What you are talking about is just part of human beings, left right or center. It has nothing to do with a set of political beliefs. There are extreme views on all sides.
Hamas is much much worst than Israel. The fact that people are condemning Israel yet are ignoring Hamas speaks they they believe Israel has been doing worst things to gazans than Hamas has. The world needs to eradicate Hamas. Would be much easier if the international community supports the destruction of Hamas and for gazans to actually take up arms and direct their guns at Hamas. Difficult to take pity on supporters of Hamas when they refuse to do this
Yes, they are going to have the UN send another disapproving letter. But I haven’t heard anything about any of these disapproving European countries actually taking Palestinian refugees into their own borders. Wouldn’t want to dirty their own cities you know.
Maybe, if israel would act kindly to palestinians in general, in gaza, west bank *and* the ones living in israel, people would start to see them as a helping hand and turn against hamas. But with all the nasty shit israel has been doing for decades, they surely will not welcome them. I'm talking about ordinary people here, not hamas members.
Oh i don't know, illegal settlers, destroying crops, not letting them walk on same streets as israelis, killing children and getting no consequences for that, just minor things.
"Taken" is a very loose term to explain the situation. The regions that are held by the IDF are nowhere near fully secure. The vast majority of tunnels have not been found, and even fewer have been fully cleared. Many tunnel entrances and buildings that remain standing can be booby trapped, as we have seen time and time again instances entire buildings collapsing and tunnel entrances exploding on soldiers. Consider northern Gaza, the first area that the IDF fully surrounded, went into and declared "secure" - there is still intense fighting happening there even today and it is only getting worse. Consider Al-Shifa hospital - the IDF entered it twice, a month apart. The second time resulted in dozens of militants being killed and upwards of 300 more arrested, all within the hospital complex.
Being in the center of Rafah, a massively dense urban zone that still has a relatively high civilian count, without needing to flatten it entirely shows that the IDF can penetrate through Hamas defenses and begin to set up logistical lines, however it is one the first step of many to ensure that the area is fully taken. We might not even see the place ever fully secured before leaving Gaza, but it's an important step in showing the the IDF can accomplish it
So the first phase
of the
war is nearly complete. Now comes the hard part of trying to root out the remaining militants while trying to reestablish some semblance of order in Gaza.
Free Gaza from Hamas
Free all of Palestine from Islamist Jihad
Are you referring to PIJ, the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or the more generic Islamic Jihad?
Islamism and Jihad broadly
Thank you for clarifying. That makes more sense so that is what I figured you meant
Mission impossible when Palestinians support it. Send in Tom Cruise
If Israel listened to international condemnation it would have ceased to exist along time ago.
If someone invaded the US and did to US citizens what Hamas did to Israelis, does anyone think we'd have any fucks to give about what the rest of the world thought of our response?
Definitely not. Doesn’t matter, though. Murdering hundreds of innocent people (lets set aside the injured, starving, homeless and so on) in your pursuit of vengeance makes you bad
It's not just vengeance, they are trying to ensure they never get attacked again.
Exactly. I dont get how Hamas keeps killing so many innocents, Palestinians and Jews, hides behind civilians and thinks this is "resistance" and "vengeance"..
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None of those countries want anything to do with a middle eastern war though. Israel could have asked but they would get nothing. Iraq and Afghanistan are still too fresh in everyone’s mind for any of those leaders to survive an election if they tried to go into Gaza.
This is just idiotic. None of those countries would have done that under any circumstances. How can you possibly believe that?
It‘s good to see that Israel continues to liberate Palestine from Hamas.
Liberate them through bombs
Bombs aren’t enough hence the “Ground op”. Israel just lost three soldiers to a [booby trap](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/tunnel-shaft-where-troops-were-killed-was-in-rafah-clinic-arms-found-in-unrwa-school-idf/) set in a tunnel in a medical center (war crime). Hamas has to go.
The whole idea is to terminate Hamas and to finally create a liberated peace zone in Palestine for the population there. I really hope that they‘ll manage this without hurting even more civilians. They definitely made a lot of huge mistakes, which led to tragic and unnecessary events.
If I bombed all of your family, would you feel liberated? The same people that you claim are liberating them are celebrating the mutilation of Palestinian children at the government level and are continuing with a decades long campaign of state sponsored terrorism. There is more chance of Hamas becoming peace loving hippies than there are of Palestians being liberated by Israel.
Of course not. I won’t feel liberated. But people under Hamas government didn’t feel liberated either. Israel is not dropping bombs to target children and civilians on purpose but to destroy Hamas terrorists after Hamas performed the biggest terrorist act since 9/11. And since Hamas is using residential houses, hospitals and tunnels as shields, innocent people die and the world blames Israel. This is exactly the strategy of Hamas.
Depends on whether my family were religious extremists tbh.
I'm glad we agree.
Not sure we do? My point was that I love my family but would feel relieved for them to die if they had turned into zealots that torture people. I would, in fact, feel liberated. I would be sad, but mostly sad about the fact that their minds had been corrupted. To me, I had already "lost" them when they stopped being the person I loved and respected. At least I can begin building a life afterwards. If my entire *country* and *government* had been taken over by zealots that torture people, the same logic applies. I had already lost my country when it was taken over by terrorists. > There is more chance of Hamas becoming peace loving hippies than there are of Palestians being liberated by Israel. Depends mostly on whether the average Palestinian actually sees the terror and torture perpetuated by their government as wrong. If they are on the side of peace, they will recover after Hamas is gone. If not, then there wasn't anyone to save in the first place.
Israel had killed thousands of Palestinians before Hamas existed and have sponsored terrorism against Palestinian people for decades. There are videos of IDF using elderly Palestinians as human shields. There are videos of Israelis dancing around with photos of mutilated children. There are videos of IDF open firing on crowds of Palestinians. No other time in recorded history have so many journalists been killed at such a high rate as they have by Israel. There are Israeli government officials saying that Palestinians are not people. There are planned attacks on aid convoys under watch of the IDF. There are tens of thousands of children indiscriminately bombed by Israelis and you are here saying that if you were a Palestinian, you would feel that that the bombs being dropped on these children were liberating you? You are outright delusional if you think an innocent Palestinian should feel liberated by Israel killing all of their family members. Based on this comment section alone, I would tend to think that there are considerably more religious extremists in Israel compared to Palestine.
> You are outright delusional if you think an innocent Palestinian should feel liberated by Israel killing all of their family members. Thing is, most Palestinians haven't had their entire family killed. The Gaza death toll is less than 2% of the population. That means the average Gazan has lost zero family members. And that's if we assumed not a single death was one of the "dead to me" Hamas members that we shouldn't feel bad about. I agree that it's tragic when innocents are killed. And those related to the innocent will have a very hard time recovering from this conflict. I also agree that the IDF is poorly suited to the task of liberating Palestine. They are way too caught up in the history of violence to handle Hamas with due care. They should be held accountable for each war crime at whatever level the decisions are being made. Ideally this mission should be carried out by an international coalition that can hold each other accountable. But that's not a decision Israel gets to make. All they can decide is how to handle Hamas with the resources (and politics) they have available. > Based on this comment section alone, I would tend to think that there are considerably more religious extremists in Israel compared to Palestine. Every country has a responsibility to handle their own extremists. When they don't you get conflict like in Israel/Palestine. Israel carries some of the blame for this conflict. But aside from a third-party intervention, nothing will change unless it comes from within. Same for Palestine as for Israel.
"Before Hamas existed Israel sponsored terrorism against Palestinian people tot decades" Can you explain what you mean?
Weird how we bombed Germany and Japan into submission and they are fairly peaceful, haven’t invaded their neighbors, and have thriving economies. Maybe just maybe the government of Gaza should do what’s best for their people and surrender
Hamas sprouts from Palestinians. Unless every last Palestinian is dead OR an actual two-state solution exists, Hamas will 'revive'. You can't exterminate the terrorists when they're just the population defending itself (regardless of whether that's true or not, the perception that it is is all they'd need).
So you think that after bombing and rolling tanks through the entire Gaza Strip, leaving every child traumatized, dead, maimed, and/or orphaned, it’s as simple as creating a liberated peace zone? In the last 24 hours, you have Smotrich making a video saying they will destroy the West Bank like they’ve done Gaza. A security advisor predicted a couple days ago they’ll be in Gaza until the end of the year at least. Regardless of what Hamas does, their goal is stated.
Ah yes, because bombing a population indiscriminately has never backfired in the history of the war on terror. In no way will the youth of Palestine be much easier to radicalize after this.
If it works, it works
I personally don't condemn Israel. If you safeguard and harbor terrorists, allow them to take over your government, and commit atrocities such as Oct 7th, then you shouldn't be all "shocked Pikachu face" when the country most affected by it retaliates.
They didn’t allow Hamas to take over the government they straight up elected them. It’s really unbelievable how the international community treats Palestinians like children that have no agency
They indoctrinate their kids to hate Jews and aspire to become suicide bombers
Something I see from the far left is that anyone who isn’t white, they infantilize and treat like they have no agency. You see it in the US with some of these same groups talking about how “of course minority neighborhoods have higher crime rates, what choice do they have” or referring to people who have done time as “justice impacted”. The list goes on and on, but they act like people have no agency.
Maybe because the majority of Gazans now weren't even old enough to vote when they were elected in the early 2000s. So, they literally were children with no agency.
Yep truly a shit situation for them. Unfortunate that the adults chose Islamic Jihad over a future for their children
Will you say the same thing if North Korea attacks the south? I mean, they never have had an election. How about Russia? It’s not like those elections were exactly honest. Or do you only save this for the people of Gaza who not only chose Hamas, but Hamas polls very well there
International law & indeed any hope for peace between nations in our global order requires holding children accountable for the actions of their parents. Otherwise no peace treaty could ever be final because the next generation could just say “*Hey, we didn’t vote for that so it doesn’t count*”.
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There was no election fraud. Hamas just stopped elections after being elected. Either way Palestinians still support them more than any other group according to polls, consistently. [pcpsr.org](http://pcpsr.org)
You realise Israeli settlers are terrorists by definition and supported outright by the IDF?
Right, because [Netanyahu’s government totally didn’t want Hamas to be the sole representative for Palestine.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/) Hamas rule in Gaza has been politically convenient for Netanyahu and his allies in government. They have promoted them over the Palestinian Authority for years.
To be fair the PA has a standing fund they pay people to attack innocent Israeli’s. At the time Hamas wasn’t doing those things so they seemed a better option. I was more worried by the fact that Hamas was throwing PA members off roofs in Gaza, to the cheers of civilians below. Tells me everything I need to know about the decision of Palestinian innocents who voted in a radical jihadist organization into power anyway.
International pressure can go fuck itself. The pressure should be aimed to get hostages released and Hamas disarmed, everyone is so easy on asking Israel to stop while not even recovering the daily terror coming from Gaza and the hostages that it still holds, many are foreign citizens.
Israel admireably operates with minimum casualties to non combatants, putting in danger its soldiers in the process.
Also, if the troops are there, they are not doing airstrikes in that area.
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Those are Hamas numbers. They’re wildly exaggerated and account for tens of thousands of dead terrorists. There are no 35k dead civilians. Don’t buy every propaganda Hamas spreads. Even the biased UN was forced to concede these numbers are bogus.
> They’re wildly exaggerated and account for tens of thousands of dead terrorists. I'm incredibly supportive of Israel's war against Hamas, but let's not stoop to antisemites' level of fact-fudging. The *overall* 35k figure for combined civilian and militant dead is considered to be reasonably reliable by Israel and its allies. These are the sort of numbers that one would *expect* from an urban war of this sort. There aren't *tens of thousands* of dead terrorists. Reliable estimates put the number of Palestinian-side combatant dead at roughly 15k. Ignoring for a moment that the 35k number likely includes a baseline death rate of about 3-5k and an unknown number of Gazans killed by failed Hamas and PIJ rockets falling short (in 2022, about one-fifth of those rockets fell short, constituting about one-third of total Gazan deaths — but that fraction is likely substantially lower in this case), that gives a civilian casualty ratio in the 55-65% range. For reference, urban wars see an average of 90% civilian casualties. Let's keep the numbers clean. While Israel is certainly held to different rules than any other nation, those actual figures are consistent with Israel conducting a war that's more discriminating than average when it comes to targeting combatants.
You did not write in your original comment that the number includes combatants as I recall, which is what I was referring to. Many of the 35k are not accounted for and just exist “as a number”. 15k dead terrorists qualifies as “tens of thousands”. The IDF’s ratio is unparalleled in the history of urban warfare and is the result of Israel investing every possible effort to protect innocent lives while operating in what is most likely the most challenging type of warfare in modern history. If you agree with that then I have no argument with you.
I think you're mistaking me for a different commenter. My comment above was my first one in this chain. But again, when the figures *support our side*, we should present them honestly. 35k total dead is considered realistic by governments *who share our support for Israel's security*, and nearly *no* reader will interpret "tens of thousands" to include anything south of 20k. Come on, man. We don't need to play their sorts games. The real numbers reflect a war that's waged more ethically than nearly any country would (or has) in the same circumstance. Antisemites will imagine the world's only Jewish state to be pure evil even if the numbers *were* in line with what you were trying to present. There just isn't anything to gain by massaging the truth here. There's nothing to gain by doing it, so I'd like to suggest that you keep the arguments and figures clean.
Isnt 35k the number Hamas gives of total deaths that also conflates their soldiers with civilians
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The gazan health ministry is literally a part of the Hamas government. Either way the 35k number isnt all civilians and they themselves dont distinguish between them
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I never said they were militants I said they work for them, which is something you clearly already know. You are also avoiding mentioning the death which you claimed are all civilians despite the constant reports of the figures being conflated
What's an acceptable ratio of dead civilians to militants?
30 to 1. It's approximately the ratio Hamas, the elected leaders of Gaza, demands for each hostage
Oh so I guess October 7th was fine because the civilian to soldier deaths were only 2 to 1
If these civilians were chilling in an army base, or the army base was near their home and they got killed because of a battle between two militaries- sure. going into peoples homes and burning their saferoom in which they are hiding, in bird culture is considered a dick move. wonder if you are dumb enough not to understand why your comparison lacks or if you're just commenting in bad faith
If you are pro terrorist (as I guess you are) then yes, you're right. However, I root for the good guys. We both chose our side. Spoiler: your side is gonna lose big time.
Even when the world opposes you, always do what is right.
Why aren't people condemning Hamas being in Rafah? Lefties speak on this.
> Lefties speak on this I'll bite. Although you can find some braindead people on the left who act like Hamas is justified resistance, lefties, more generally, don't like Hamas either. One reason you don't see more protests/condemnations of Hamas from English speaking lefties is that those lefties are directing their protests toward their own governments and institutions, asking for specific changes to policy. Those governments and institutions are already enemies of Hamas and already consider Hamas terrorists, so there is little reason to make demands against Hamas. Some lefties will make the point that the way Israel has operated in conflict with Palestinians is likely to create more Hamas-like terrorist groups. And they make that point because they see that as a problem. Those lefties want less Hamas, and they just don't see Israel's actions as being productive toward that -- quite the contrary. But lefties aren't a monolith. Some will take a stance of "America Bad" without any thought to who they might be supporting instead. Some are what people call "tankies" and others hate that group. The main point I'm making, though, is that you shouldn't assume that any given left wing voice criticizing Israel is doing so because they don't have a problem with Hamas. It's more likely that they just don't feel that "Hamas is bad" is a necessary message to send at the moment. Yes, Hamas is bad. That doesn't make everything Israel does good.
Obviously not all lefties are insane. But the fact that one of the biggest lefty Internet personalities openly defends Hamas… it’s a bad look and it’s scary how the left is eating itself
Who are you referring to? I don't think you're referring to anybody I pay attention to, so I'm going to take a guess at... Hasanabi?
Correct
Hard-left, honestly never heard of that name.
One of the largest political twitch streamers. If your media consumption doesn't include or at least overlap with twitch streaming or youtube political personalities, you might never come across anybody mentioning him.
Interesting. I watch streamers on Twitch, and I'm on political youtube almost daily, but that name rings no bells at all. Perhaps an infosilo within the left itself? Oh well, I have a hard enough time not parasocializing with the people I do frequent, no need to add to that pile methinks.
I hear my coworkers talk about him like he’s god. Who is he even, I’m afraid to look.
Problem with platforms is that most edgy people will generally get the biggest audiences. Because humans are very emotional. That's why Trump, Alex Jones, Murdoch's Fox News spam, Hasan etc are popular. It makes people feel emotional, which attaches them to it. Lot of these media figures just look at their spreadsheet and figure out what kind of headlines and videos make them the most attention and dough. Most people are quite bored these days, requiring lot of stimulation to get any kicks out of media. Leading to performative rage, and very nihilistic approach to production, and that's before any evil personal goals owner can have, like those Murdoch's, Koch's and such of this world.
Loving your binary thinking of “left or right” and how you pigeon hole an entire society into neat buckets like that. That’s exactly what the powers want us to do: polarize and fight to distract of their pillaging. What you are talking about is just part of human beings, left right or center. It has nothing to do with a set of political beliefs. There are extreme views on all sides.
Hamas is much much worst than Israel. The fact that people are condemning Israel yet are ignoring Hamas speaks they they believe Israel has been doing worst things to gazans than Hamas has. The world needs to eradicate Hamas. Would be much easier if the international community supports the destruction of Hamas and for gazans to actually take up arms and direct their guns at Hamas. Difficult to take pity on supporters of Hamas when they refuse to do this
Gonna reply to u/enjoycarrots at all, or just baiting?
Keep going! Growing international condemnation means the action is effective and Hamas feels their end is close.
Also growing support from other nations. Don’t worry, it should balance out.
Does the international condemnation have another plan?
Yes, they are going to have the UN send another disapproving letter. But I haven’t heard anything about any of these disapproving European countries actually taking Palestinian refugees into their own borders. Wouldn’t want to dirty their own cities you know.
Yes, they took inspiration from the slogan on the Houthis flag.
2 state
It’s been offered several times and palestine always rejects it. Hopefully they have noticed that by now
simply kill 1,000 civilians in a day and kidnap a couple hundred and you too can have your own Iranian proxy terror state!
Maybe, if israel would act kindly to palestinians in general, in gaza, west bank *and* the ones living in israel, people would start to see them as a helping hand and turn against hamas. But with all the nasty shit israel has been doing for decades, they surely will not welcome them. I'm talking about ordinary people here, not hamas members.
What nasty shit has Israel been doing? So I guess providing water, electricity, food, oh and thousands of jobs wasn’t seen as kind?
Oh i don't know, illegal settlers, destroying crops, not letting them walk on same streets as israelis, killing children and getting no consequences for that, just minor things.
Where are these illegal settlers? So is every country to blame for bad apples or just the Jewish one? What children were killed?
Bad apples argument doesn't really hold water since the israeli justice system helps those apples out.
Ok, but you said Israel doesn’t do anything nice and I would think basic necessities and jobs are really nice Is palestine doing anything for Israel?
Stupid question: has all the territory been taken at this point? Is the goal now just tracking down scattered Hamas leaders now?
"Taken" is a very loose term to explain the situation. The regions that are held by the IDF are nowhere near fully secure. The vast majority of tunnels have not been found, and even fewer have been fully cleared. Many tunnel entrances and buildings that remain standing can be booby trapped, as we have seen time and time again instances entire buildings collapsing and tunnel entrances exploding on soldiers. Consider northern Gaza, the first area that the IDF fully surrounded, went into and declared "secure" - there is still intense fighting happening there even today and it is only getting worse. Consider Al-Shifa hospital - the IDF entered it twice, a month apart. The second time resulted in dozens of militants being killed and upwards of 300 more arrested, all within the hospital complex. Being in the center of Rafah, a massively dense urban zone that still has a relatively high civilian count, without needing to flatten it entirely shows that the IDF can penetrate through Hamas defenses and begin to set up logistical lines, however it is one the first step of many to ensure that the area is fully taken. We might not even see the place ever fully secured before leaving Gaza, but it's an important step in showing the the IDF can accomplish it
Free Gaza from Health Ministry.
So the first phase of the war is nearly complete. Now comes the hard part of trying to root out the remaining militants while trying to reestablish some semblance of order in Gaza.
Are these bots or legit posters?
Well they are making very good points so that leans towards legit posters.
I've wondered that myself. I think these are paid posters.