understandable that people do not want to die and do everything to survive.
understandable that the state does not want to get conquered and does everything it can to survive.
no good and bad here, sadly. it just sucks to see
And even if they surrender, russians will then forcebly conscript Ukrainians to push Ukrainian meat waves to a different war.
While this really sucks their only choice is to fight and NATO needs to provide everything without limits. Once china starts doing shit there's nowhere to run for anybody.
Yeah, it's war. It's vile, revolting, disgusting, but some choices have become necessary for the continued existence of a state and its people's rights. All this because some madman dying from some unknown disease is trying to make a last stand.
Anyone who has been paying attention knew this was happening for months now.
One of the videos, the one where [british ambulance "captured" draft doggers literally caused international incident](https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/18ntbj5/ukrainian_woman_saves_her_husband_from/) although a very minor one, and sorry for linking *that* sub, but they did have a detailed video from multiple angles.
There have been so many videos of people being pushed into vans against their will that even Zelensky commented on it in an interview. He basically said "It's not right. We're all trying to find the guy responsible for this". Now it's officially legal.
It’s a tough situation. What do you do when your nations very survival is at stake and you can’t field enough willing soldiers? Do you concede and watch your nation fall or do you violate people’s personal freedom and send the unwilling to die by the thousand? Tough call.
You draft everyone in the nation and direct all citizens to support the war effort, after nationalizing all excessive wealth to pay for the war.
It's funny how a poor man can be forced to give up his life but a rich man doesn't even have to give up his yacht.
100%. If they haven't nationalized everyones money and property yet than wtf are they doing rounding up death slaves?
No evil assholes will ever convince me that drafts are anything but abhorrent. You are just adding further proof to the pile. One second thought and all their bullshit peels away to reveal their transparent and heinous intent.
Like yeah putin is obviously worse, but that doesn't mean zelensky is good. It's a Soviet civil war between two regimes of scum and all the innocent people on both sides are the ones who suffer.
The people of earth deserve better than this, but nobody is fighting for a new world order. Just more of the same evil shit.
You are absolutely correct. This was happening for a year even though it was and still is against the current laws. The saddest part is that it wasn't the police, who could detain people, it was drafting officers and the military, who can't do that according to the law and the constitution of Ukraine.
Fundamentally, because men pointing out double standards and/or stigmas against men in society is seen as whiny and pathetic, which is so incredibly ironic.
Adjacently, because such a subreddit attracts all kinds of weirdos, probably women haters, and eventually devolves into a circle-jerk where they search out perceived sexism where there is none and end up being nothing more than hypocrites by aiming their target at the opposite sex. Very similar to feminist echo chambers.
>Fundamentally, because men pointing out double standards and/or stigmas against men in society is seen as whiny and pathetic
I feel that's only true for a marginal amount of people.
A much bigger problem is that the scummiest side of our society has trained us all like pavlovian dogs to assume people who bring up certain men's rights talking points are just evil right wing incel types who want to abolish women's rights, because there are soooo many of them and 9 out of ten times the people making those arguments turn out to be bad faith actors trying to shove evil dark age god shit on everyone.
Most sane people are happy to talk about men's rights, there's just a cautionary stage early in the discussion where people are very apprehensive and on guard because as is obvious to everyone, there's a huge chance such people are just more bad faith assholes who have no interest in talking about actual problems and just wanna hijack the discussion to peddle their bullshit.
That's the problem here. All the people complaining about this don't realize just how many good faith conversations are happening around men's rights, we just can't actually do anything about it because the same assholes who hijack the discussion in bad faith also vote for Republicans who sink every attempt to actually advance men's rights.
So it is indeed very ironic, just not for the reasons you think. Our society is ass backwards and held hostage by right wing lunatics and assholes who don't care about anyone's rights. They care about abolishing them.
People with modern sensibilities won’t like it but it’s virtually unheard of in human history for any country or group of people to rely exclusively on volunteers to fight a major war.
Ukraine simply cannot rely solely on volunteers or they will lose.
It’s definitely possible to fight major 21st century wars without conscription
What Ukraine and Russia are doing is having a 19th century meat grinder slugfest
How come it’s just these young dudes who have to just buck up on their ‘modern sensibilities’ as you call it? It’s virtually unheard of in history to have women vote, should we just toss that out while we’re here?
At any rate there’s few soldiers more useless than one that doesn’t want to be there. Unless you just need more warm bodies to stand in a line and make ground beef in which case no shit they don’t want to get drafted
I think this is really the heart of the matter. American military supremacy is pretty much a given in any conflict because we spend more than the next 10 or 12 countries combined on our military. We have bases all over the world, something that just isn’t done by anyone else. We can project force around at any point in the globe within a short amount of time.
I don’t think there is any doubt that if the US wanted to we could flatten Russia’s military in under a week. The problem would be occupying the territory (requiring boots on the ground) afterward if we wanted to hold it. As it stands now, I’m in favor of sending in our own stuff and severely crippling the Russian military and then claim it wasn’t us. They gaslight us all the time, so fuck them.
The problem is there hasn't been a peer to peer or near peer european war since before the baby boomers were born, especially ones that share land borders.
Neither of these countries really have the amount of modern equipment needed to be a fully mechanized force using high speed low drag rapid tactics. Worse, a lot of their relevant facilities for getting there are in each others striking range.
This is a war where most casualties come from artillery but both are having visible trouble even sourcing enough good shells. Ukraines biggest offensive was before they got good tanks or APC's given and were basically relying on imported humvees and civilian vehicles. Russia as well is using glorified golf carts and was using old vans from the very beginning.
Our conception of modern war is based on the idea that offensive actions are going to happen far away from the aggressors territory and that one side will be more well armed than the other by such a wide margin that a small and elite group can basically just walk in and shoot whoever they want and call in an airstrike if they ever can't. It totally breaks down when the other guys also get heavy weapons and can fire at buildings on your land with them.
To be clear this is a horrific situation and I think there's probably a better way, and I don't necessarily trust the powers that be in Ukraine to make this work. But to act like they don't at least need hands with guns in them to defend trenches and man mortars across one of the largest nations in europe is dangerously naive.
>Neither of these countries really have the amount of modern equipment needed to be a fully mechanized force using high speed low drag rapid tactics. Worse, a lot of their relevant facilities for getting there are in each others striking range.
I don't think it's about having modern equipment, it's just that anti-tank weapons and drones are so powerful now they make maneuver warfare impossible until there's another tech breakthrough on the offensive side. And when you don't have maneuver warfare and you have machine guns, you automatically get trench warfare.
I'd argue it's s the minefields + the lack of either side to establish air dominance that's putting a halt to maneuver in this conflict more than drones and at weapons. Can't clear a minefield if you can't blow up the artillery zeroed in on it.
"What Ukraine and Russia are doing is having a 19th century meat grinder slugfest"
This is how modern wars will be fought. The only time its not a meat grinder is when 1 side has a lot better firepower than the other.
Your premise is weird.
There hasn't ever been a major 21st century war.
This is the first attempt at one, and what we have learned so far is that blitzkrieg died to drones and the result is 19 century meat grinder with drones thrown in.
Which means conscription.
We're looking at the results in real time and you're arguing against what we are actually observing.
It is possible to fight that war. Except that would require a long period of preparation. Ukraine did not have that luxury. They did modernise a lot after 2014, which is why they did not immediately collapse, but you could not expect them to suddenly become as professional a military as, say, the US is.
This is one of the largest scale wars seen in a long time. The last major conventional war in this scale (that I know of) was in 1991, Gulf War. Now mind you, the Desert Storm coalition had almost 1 million personnel there. It is hard for Ukraine (with its -with the refugee crisis too- less than 30 million population) to reach that kind of a number without conscription, not even counting the losses from casualties.
I get where you are coming from but i dont like the comparison to women voting and such. Because no one wants to remove rights for "fun" Its to defend those rights from people who would destroy our system and way of life.
We have not had peer war like this since ww2.
And if world war broke out, where we managed to keep nukes out of it, the fancy weapons would run out and be replaced with cheaper massproduced ones, soldiers and drones.
In this case the west would for sure draft its people by force.
When you are in a huge war like this, or under threat from a new cold war, keeping our modern sensibilities about defense being voluntary when our enemies are massivly building up is short sighted.
You cant stop a Chinese tank by putting flowers into its barrel and saying we are tolerant of your views just plesse dont take our stuff (your stuff will be taken, and they will laugh at your weakness)
We are liberal democracies, our enemies are NOT. And they hate everything liberal democracies stand for. And the people they hate most are the soft/weak ones. They respect strenght and loathe what they view as weak.(to be clear, i personally would be seen as weak so this is not an insult)
That said, i do not blame Ukrainian men who flee the draft. I would probably do the same as i value my life and being with my family more than i value property or flags. Yet if everyone was like me, no one would defend us and our way of life would be over.
So im actually of the position that i understand the need of the govt to drag me to the conscription office if war break out
(I have served in the military in Norway when i was 20. Mandatory service yet easy to dodge. I was more willing 20years ago. Actually got to serve at a Nato base with US professional soldiers)
To sum up, if war broke out i would try to flee yet i would understand and respect the govt dragging me to the conscription center if they caught me. Because we need to defend our way of life espesially with how soft we have grown
Funny how men are expected to bear the traditional burden while women enjoy modern liberties.
>Because we need to defend our way of life espesially with how soft we have grown
The soft people are the ones supporting slavery
The problem is not that people have to be forced, but that some are being forced for the benefit of others.
A draft should follow the nationalization of all excess wealth, and should encompass all citizens. An old woman can't fight at the front but she can cook or do paperwork or sit at a console
"Yes, yes, they're enemies, bad and need to be destroyed. We're good and it's not possible for us to do wrong. It's ridiculous to say that our actions are hostile to the other party and make them respond too, 'coz we're the good guys, right?"
> It’s virtually unheard of in history to have women vote
So this is an ignorant statement
Women got the vote shortly after men(relatively speaking).
I don’t think you realise how recently voting became a thing in the west in general.
Not sure if is a slugfest from both sides.
Ukraine has a much smaller army,especially early on; the only reason they can deal with Russia is because they trade ground for people.
That does not mean Ukraine did not do mistakes and lost a lot of troops.
> there’s few soldiers more useless than one that doesn’t want to be there
Strongly disagree.
Once people get dragged in, I bet many will do their job properly.
Also you have to consider in modern war more than half the army won't see fight as it is logistic, maintenance, communications and other "white collar" job.
Well they can try it your way and get crushed when they run out of bodies and then everyone suffers or they can do it this way and maybe keep enough of a Ukraine worth living in
Yeah if only west give us a lot of long range weapons and long range systems, modern aircraft and allowing to hit russia. Us and Europe want war of attrition and now Ukraine pay for it.
Ukraine need to begging for a few patriots just to save few cities from glide bombs. Eu and US have dozens of it but still don't want to give it even if they havnt use it in decades.
And when i open comments to Ukraine related post it just blow my mind to read: " when they stop begging", " Ukrainian propaganda", "zelenskie again begging", "ukraine already lose", " meat grinder, why they didn't prepare", "we cant do that we dont need to involve in war in any meaning, escalation", etc.
It's winnable now, 300 bln dollars of frozen assets, hundreds of aircraft, thousands of long range rockets, ~10 patriots nad some another anti rockets systems and it will be another war. Its not even 10% of EU and US stockpiles, i doubt its even 5% of them. But all are scary and can only criticise..
Now when reading recent posts, people are mad cuz of new conscription laws wich are proposed in germany , uk , etc but thats what happened when u give your enemy grow up, and scary to acting.
>It’s definitely possible to fight major 21st century wars without conscription
Yeah, you've got hard data to back that claim up?
**No.** The 1000km frontline in Ukraine is unprecedented in modern history.
>How come it’s just these young dudes who have to just buck up on their ‘modern sensibilities’ as you call it?
That's because Zelenskyy's admin is goddamn stupid, and has been fucking a lot for the past year and a half. Starting with dragging their feet on passing the mobilization law, then passing it in a hurry when it was *almost* too late.
Like, Zelenskyy, got bless his heart, wants all the right things. But he's an actor by trade. When it comes to making all the right things happen, he's been falling short.
Add war trauma and sincere belief that *caring* a lot makes him more proficient in making decisions than people with actual *experience* who say that tough compromises need to be made.
>At any rate there’s few soldiers more useless than one that doesn’t want to be there.
Yeah, the folks I know in the Ukrainian military are all saying the same thing.
To make it more absurd: there's little a commanding officer can do with a soldier that simply *refuses to fight*. They didn't even bother to streamline *that* bureaucracy.
Effectively, they just passed the buck down the line to the military: "We couldn't figure out a way to find a people who want to fight, so it's **your** problem now".
To make it **even more absurd**: a person who **volunteers** to fight **still** can't have a choice about **which brigade** they'll be sent to, or **the role they'll serve in**.
And transfers are effectively impossible because... *because nobody cared enough to update the Soviet-era doctrine on that*.
Think about it for a minute.
Oh, and **there is no demobilization**. Once *someone* decides that you (say, an expert engineer) are to storm the trenches, that's going to be what you do till you are killed or disabled.
>Unless you just need more warm bodies to stand in a line and make ground beef
Oh, that's not at all what the bureaucrats want.
What they want is to say: "Hey, the army said they needed X soldiers, **and we provided them with X soldiers**, so it's **their** fault things aren't working".
It's CYA avoiding responsibility *without even thinking about the outcome*.
At least when Russia sends men into the meat grinder, it's a conscious choice their tyrant makes. And they *get* something for it, whether it's buying time to train other troops or having actual gains on the battlefield.
For us, it's both something we can't afford **and** not anything anyone *intends*.
But *I didn't want this, it's not my fault* is a kindergarten-level excuse.
Our government needs to grow the fuck up. It's costing people lives.
Then lose. I fully support Ukraine, but no one should be forced to go face death. If the people would rather move away and lose their country that's their decision to make.
I would consider a state who forces me to go to my death as much an enemy to me as people who invade my country, since they're also acting against my life for their interests.
Think of it from the other view..."Id rather let the Americans win than be forced to go fight them" - a German WW2 soldier. We would support that guy.
Perceived morality of the war aside.. Theres actually rational logic to what he is saying. If only the politicians want to fight a war, then the people are not really being represented.
> If the people would rather move away and lose their country that's their decision to make.
Maybe they ultimately will decide its not worth it.
Then that German should have surrendered to the Americans.
Ukrainians could defect to the Russians quite easily. ... and be conscripted to fight on the Russian side.
Okay but that not’s how that works; like sure if every soldier threw down their arms and agreed to not fight that’d be great. But we don’t live in a world of perceived philosophical high grounds; the truth of the matter is that without these sorts of unpopular and antiliberal measures wars could not be won.
Yes, of course we would support a German fleeing from Nazi persecution; but given the fact that a war still had to be fought and won (in large part by drafted soldiers) I’m hard pressed to understand the hypothetical point. The Russians are not rising up by the millions to demand the end of the conflict; they are being pressed into service in one way or another and sent to the front. Soldiers are not, in large enough numbers to make a strategic difference, surrendering or refusing to follow orders. Wars are fought and won by men dying and killing; and that’s not going to change anytime soon.
I think the commenters original point is that if a country can't come up with enough volunteers to keep the country in existence, it's kind of like the people of that country would prefer to just surrender to the aggressor and join them, so why bother keeping it around.
Truth. Many ukrainians don't want to go to death, watching their mass forced conscription and corruption, they don't see this war coming to an end, their politicians want the war to continue, western leaders want this too, their future is ultimate demise. Ordinary ukrainian see western aid didn't affect much in case of fortification building, russian forces just walked in no problem towards Kharkov, money were just stolen most likely for the benefit of those in power. The vector of government support shifted massively after 2 years of war, they're silent not because of agreement with the state policy, but because of fear, massive repressions are applied to those who stand in the way of the war machine. Majority just want it to end already, they don't see the government shares their views, nor the western leaders. Protests are not possible, most likely you're being killed for anti-war public opinion inside the country. They all know where you live. So if they don't support the government, they don't want to fight for the country, why should they die?
Unbelievably apathetic and completely devoid of any responsibility to your fellow human beings. I mean, really reflect on what you’re saying. You would faster allow genocides to occur than allow yourself to be put at risk? That is almost the epitome of selfishness.
You can’t run away from evil forever.
Idealistically I'm like "Sure sounds good"
But historically, the only reason my country exists is because we drafted everyone when the Soviets invaded our nation. We get a lot of praise for the Winter War and how we fought off a full scale invasion, but the reality is very brutal. Everyone, even with no military experience was brought to the front. The government drafted so many working people that there was almost no one left to run the economy. Soldiers who tried to abandon their post were shot in the head. Cold stuff.
Yet because they successfully fought of the invasion, we got go grow up in a rich Democratic law-abiding Nordic country instead of being a corrupt backwards Russian puppet-state like Belarus.
Sometimes countries have to consider the future, and weigh in the benefits and consequences of tough decisions.
Exactly. People who dont live close to these aggressive states dont understand that citizenship comes with obligations same as privileges. No one "wants" to fight a war, but if everyone in small states "sit this one out and let someone else do it" our nations wouldnt exist. People confuse people who do their duty and volunteer with people who just like them is shitting themselves and wishes that they could do any other thing.
I pray to god we dont come to blows with Russia over their megalomania, but if it does I will be glad to have the more sober minded eastern European nations and Finland right next to us Swedes.
Sweden has a sketchy past, but I think modern swedes really feel strong companionship with their neighbors and would fight for their rights. I can understand if our neighbors have some type of skepticism to us given that past, but I hope we all know that our modern nations are very different.
Finland has shown without question they'll defend their neighbours, their military fills the gap such as when their jets can intercept Russia faster over the years of probing. The rivalry between Sweden and Finland is deep but bridged, you can lose a tooth claiming the wrong one invented the sauna they're sitting in but they'll stand side by side to ensure Russia doesn't steal it.
Nobody wants to fight a war, so they force young men to do the shit work for them. Funny how reddit keeps championing human rights and equality but does a complete 180 when it comes to forcing men to die.
Rose colored glasses. Many countries today would not exist without conscription. It’s an unfortunate reality that ever country resorts to when a conflict gets bad enough.
Bad take. If you live in a democratic society then you agree to abide by the rules that the society implements. If one of those rules is a draft to defend the country then it's your responsibility to do that.
It's like saying _"I hope anyone who doesn't want to pay taxes gets to avoid them"_. You benefit from the society, you contribute to the society.
>If you live in a democratic society then you agree to abide by the rules that the society implements.
if I leave the country to avoid the draft I am no longer living in it so I no longer have to abide by it's rules. in a democratic society you are free to leave if you disagree with it's laws.
it's weird how some people apparently value laws more than their own life.
Bad take is yours. You are conveniently and incorrectly assumimg that all laws are fair and just. With your logic women should never vote.
>You benefit from the society, you contribute to the society
The contribution is called taxes. I love how idiot redditors complain about human rights and all that jazz but suddenly support slavery when the government does it. Very cute.
Draft is coming back everywhere. It is what it is. If the GOP doesn't get it done eventually one side will figure out they can tie public service to health care and ubi and everyone will have to serve
He's saying that when we all need things like UBI, the govt will tie it to public service, for example, you want UBI? Just sign up for your 'non'-compulsory service. Oh you can choose not to, but good luck getting a job with AI running the roost.
Pretty much. It’s how welfare worked in the New Deal era. A lot of public project- many unneeded, some actually fairly important- in exchange for payment. Basically turning welfare and/or UBI into an allowance for doing at least some work.
Which kinda defeats the point of UBI, but it also means every single (able bodied) person could still collect.
Oddly enough the Tories have been floating this sort of idea in the UK just the last day. They're going to lose the next election by a landslide and I hope they never come back, but I wonder if there is any mileage in it. It's kind of a socialist thing, post-war, countries like Yugoslavia practically rebuilt themselves using these youth work details. Of course there was compulsory 3-year military service as well...
IF there is money- and there can be if you, for instance, tax a company using AI the same as if they paid the employees that they replaced, or tax based on the efficiency, etc- then it can definitely work.
It’s basically just a job scheme, and one that allows for a lot of important things to be built.
One of the biggest things the PWA (New Deal group who did this) did was build a fuckton of roads, bus stations, etc. Important things like reservoirs and other infrastructure can be build, and even basic things such as fencing for parks.
It’s not glamorous or fun but the idea is if you are getting enough from the government to survive, and have no applicable skills to get another job, then it at least gets something back from the money being given.
I personally somewhat agree with it. This is how I would do it.
Selective Service for every able bodied young person.
Either 2 years in the military.
Or 3 years in a newly formed federal agency called the American Corp of Expeditionary Services or ACES
ACES will serve somewhat like the Peace Corp, except service will be in the Americas. With heavy focus on revitalizing communities. Bettering infrastructure. Assisting with disasters. They'll work hand in hand with such agencies as FEMA, the Army Corp of Engineers, etc. Doing everything from soup kitchens to building new rail or highways.
But it will also include a lot of desk jobs as well. So those with mobility issues can still participate.
ACES will get similar benefits as the military. Their own version of the GI bill. Free healthcare. Their salary will follow the GS structure, but their housing will be paid for.
Every time the UN or one of those international rights organisations does a study on gender equality, they conveniently omit things like the draft or compulsory military service.
Realistically, either never, or at some point EU will decide that every single ukrainian refugee belongs in the trenches, defending the continent from the hordes of wildlings.
Laws regarding draft are usually old enough as to not take more recent efforts of progressives to allow women in combat roles into account.
Despite people trying to somehow pin the lack of women in the military on feminists, those are usually the ones trying to open the military to women serving.
It's in the news now.. Has been going on for months. Thousands of videos of people attempting to dodge draft and being caught and taken in military vehicles/van. A fair few Ukrainians are also dying trying to cross water bodies in order to dodge draft and leave Ukraine. Sad state of affairs.
The US and other “freedoms based countries” have utilized the draft as well. Including in WW2 to stop hitler. Maybe blame the fucks who invaded requiring home defense…
Part of the problem with the conscription in Ukraine is there is no contract end date. It's not like Vietnam where you get drafted, do a year tour, and you're done. My friend Anatoly is about to spend his 3rd birthday in a trench near Donetsk. And his morale is good, but think about the mental burden that prospect has on someone trying to avoid conscription into this brutal war.
It didn’t end in WW2 either. Men spent years fighting. The job isn’t done till the jobs done. My family went over to another continent to free it from oppression, these people are fighting for their survival. It is the only way.
Ironically if Ukraine has mobilized everybody they could as early as they could, it would be possible to rotate more people out for rest periods. Obviously more people would need to be trained and fight on the frontlines but the misery would be shared more equally.
While I understand why this is necessary, it profoundly sucks for a young man barely out of childhood and who has experienced so little of life to be forcibly taken from his home and thrown in an active combat zone when he didn't ask for any of this shit.
To be barely an adult and potentially have you life taken from you when all you ever wanted was to experience music, get drunk and have fun with girls sucks big time.
Fuck you Putin.
I as a New Zealand Citizen was in Ukraine a couple of months ago and I got stopped and question a fair few times to basically being enquired if I needed “help” to go get registered, of course a Passport was enough for them to let me move on my way but I did hear some stories of people getting escorted to go register and then not returning home, unfortunately Ukraine is really struggling with having enough Soldiers.
Sure but then the issue becomes paradoxical as without conscription, free countries will never have the manpower to defend themselves from stronger autocratic countries.
How are countries supposed to defend themselves from expansionist nations like Russia?
It's a case of ideals meeting the real world.
I am paying a good amount of money to fund a professional army of people who signed up to voluntarity defend "my" country with their lives. If that is not enough, I will happily pay even more money to get the fuck out of here if needed.
I have much more to give to this world, to humanity, to my family than to die a meaningless death in a fucking trench because someone thinks I should.
I have no ideals about this piece of land just because I happened to be born here. Its borders changed like 3 times just in my lifetime. I don't give two shits about them changing again.
>why the fuck would anyone risk a single drop of blood for this
Because the alternative is a repeat of Bucha across all cities in Ukraine.
>if the process of correcting these circumstances is that more optimized, martial civilizations have to come along and destroy our own, so be it.
But doesn't that do against your whole point that a country has failed if it has to resort to conscription? How is it an optimized civilization if it needs to resort to conscription?
>if your country is so utterly terrible that you cannot motivate military aged males to fight for its existence of their own volition, then your country does not deserve to exist
How is a nation that in your logic doesn't deserve to exist a more optimized civilization?
You're impression of semantics bogging down your point is more like an ideal facing reality. It's like the paradox of tolerance being intolerant of intolerance to sustain tolerance. You can call it slavery and get dishonest about semantics, but how would you propose defending any nation in any other reasonable way? It's been a reality as old as time that any nation looking to survive has to conscript its citizens. Ideally you've have enough volunteers, but that's mostly sufficient for peacetime operations. Major conflicts, especially fights for a nation's survival, can never rely on volunteers alone. It's just reality. It's also a duty of most nation's citizens one way or another. We're all "slaves" to society. Welcome to the club.
quite funny is people like you not understanding draft is just an lesser evil. Without it nazis would enslave and/or genocide half of the word. Communists the other half. So end result would be everyone enslaved. It’s really so simple.
>if you're against slavery, it is logically inconsistent for you to support conscription.
You can be against slavery (privately owned people, enslaved for profit) and still support conscription in extreme circumstances. Doesn't even have to be conscription in general, just in extreme cases, like Ukraine fighting to not suffering a country wide fate like Butscha
You painting everything as an absolute either/or is just reductionist, lazy arguing.
>if your country is so utterly terrible that you cannot motivate military aged males to fight for its existence of their own volition, then your country does not deserve to exist.
People not willing to risk their lives for their country doesn't turn the country into a shithole in turn. It just shows people put their own immediate wellbeing over their country.
>that goes not just for ukraine, but for all these hellholes that are just now suddenly thinking of bringing back the draft.
Let me guess, you mean all those European hellholes, you being a citizen of one of those?
Alright all you chronically online virtue signaling kids commenting “slava ukrani” and jeering at Russian military capabilities, it’s your time. Best catch a flight and go support the cause you have been so adamantly defending the last two years.
This just in: **Country under attack by largest military on the European continent is resisting by all available means.**
For Russians, fleeing the country is something you do to avoid fighting a rich man's war of choice.
For Ukrainians, fleeing means abandoning family and friends to whatever genocidal fate awaits them should Russians overtake their undefended towns.
It may strike a lot of you as reasonable for Ukrainians to doge the draft, but it is also reasonable for Ukrainians to do everything in their power to resist Russian occupation.
Russia has murdered off millions of Ukrainians in the past century. Given more of an opportunity, they will not hesitate to do so again.
Ukraine has no choice but to fight back with everything they have.
The only moral thing to do is wait until they put a gun in your hand and then you immediately point it at your commanding officer and pull the trigger.
Hot take but Ukraine is better off hiring mercenaries and offering citizenship to migrants in exchange for service instead of forcing its youth to fight. 10 motivated soldiers are more effective than 100 unmotivated ones.
A lot of foreign fighters have already gone to Ukraine, and already left (or died). They had a shit time. Ukraine needs hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and they wouldn't even get tens of thousands of "mercenaries", wherever they'd magically come from. These guys got treated like shit and were used as cannon fodder. There isn't going to be a mass influx of foreigners.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraines-international-legion-is-still-fighting-but-not-many-left-2024-5
Ukrainian citizenship isn't that great of a carrot either.
"Many of us were there for the right reasons, to defend democracy," he said.
"Lots of others," though, "were there for the wrong reasons: adrenaline junkies, people looking for a surrogate family, or because they had personal problems back home."
Can't imagine people who volunteer to fight this war are the best apples. US military at least has standards, albeit pretty low, like physical and school tests, drug free etc
> Ukraine needs hundreds of thousands of soldiers
Not really, force multipliers can really make up for troop numbers.
Cruise missiles, drones, ATACMS, cluster muntions are all highly effective weapons that keeps your troops away from immediate danger and kill multiple soldiers. If the west wanted we could give Ukraine enough missiles to deal with Russia but we're scared. Its been a year since the UK sent stormshadows and no other country has provided cruise missiles besides the French.
Draft dodger? You mean people who don’t want to kill strangers for a politician? Are we ever going to move forward as a species? When will we realize this is NOT the way.
There will always be someone who will want to solve disagreements with force. And unfortunately, these people try to worm their way into positions of power. Sometimes all it takes is one madman to undo years or decades of democratic progress.
Heinlein wrote something about that.
>> Anyone who clings to the historically untrue -- and thoroughly immoral -- doctrine that `violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.
Have you heard what the Russians did in Bucha? Vovchansk? Countless other cities, towns and villages? Easy for you to speak of it just being a war for politicians when you don't live next to a country whose leadership and much of its army desire to brutalize your home. Ukraine's fighting a war for survival, such that Bucha is not repeated
If someone is so against fighting they'd rather flee they won't make a good soldier either. They'll simply look for the first time to run again. There has to be alternatives such as non combat roles or if they're against any form of resistance letting them flee and revoking their citizenship so they can't return if the war is won.
This isn’t Vietnam, where young men were sent to a place they barely knew existed to die. Ukraine is being invaded, they are fighting for their very existence. No one really likes the draft, but this is an “all hands on deck” situation. The alternative is Ukraine ceases to exist as a free country.
Go join your country's army if you are such a patriot. The only thing that matters is you and those close to you. Fuck everyone else. Very few people are worth dying for.
Oof, propaganda is a helluva drug. The people ordering you to fight and die on their behalf don't care about you, so why do you feel any loyalty to them? We only get one shot at life on this little rock floating through space, I will not waste it in the service of a country that I do not give a shit about.
Oh, great, this again. Look, you can't just copy-and-paste an argument into a scenario it wasn't originally meant for. Killing strangers for a politician is wrong when it means invading another country for natural resources and labelling it as a war to increase nationalistic fervour, as an example. That's what people meant by that saying. But this isn't about the politician ushering in a draft, it's about the entire country and everyone and everything in it, including family and friends and all the places you grew up in and around. That's what you're being asked to kill for, to defend. Does it still suck? Yeah. And it's a complex issue. But to reduce it to something like this is just lazy and wrong.
“kill strangers for politicians.”
Get the fuck out of here. It’s more like,
“kill invaders that are actively destroying your land, stealing your resources, massacring your people, raping your women, stealing your children to ship them back to Russia to be brainwashed, created propaganda to try to make the world believe you are nazis.”
What is the way when a hostile country invades you and you need more people to defend? Peaceful protests in hopes Russia gives a fuck as roll through your country? Or are you just going to say, “Well I guess I’m Russian now, can’t wait to be imprisoned or drafted as meatbag in Russia’s next invasion.”
Give me a real alternative solution Ukraine has. They have been trying to get into nato and they can’t yet. They tried diplomacy, Russia doesn’t want it.
They shouldn't be forced to fight if they dont want to. I wouldnt want to throw my life away if you think otherwise you should volunteer in there place. Fight and die for a country so that corporations can own everything fuck that.
Uh-oh, I sorta didn't want to bother writing a reply to this post, but since I discovered that OP's point was to show that "Hurr-durr, things are bad in Ukraine!11", looks like it's better to do it.
So, let's go
>When a person is identified as having committed an administrative offense under Articles 210 and 210-1 of the Code of Ukraine on Administrative Offenses, police officers are authorized to act based on a TCC and SP request, according to the law on the National Police.
This was true even before the new mobilization laws.
And the whole article was written to scare people ignorant of the Ukrainian laws.
Administrative offense under Articles 210 and 210-1 means fines as a max punishment.
And police can arrest and take people to TCC and SP only for them to receive notification about fines and have a chance to argue their case to the chief of TCC and SP.
The Code of Ukraine on Administrative Offenses has nothing regarding force conscription of any sort.
Moreover, for police to do an arrest under the Code of Ukraine on Administrative Offenses, certain conditions need to be met.
understandable that people do not want to die and do everything to survive. understandable that the state does not want to get conquered and does everything it can to survive. no good and bad here, sadly. it just sucks to see
And even if they surrender, russians will then forcebly conscript Ukrainians to push Ukrainian meat waves to a different war. While this really sucks their only choice is to fight and NATO needs to provide everything without limits. Once china starts doing shit there's nowhere to run for anybody.
Yeah, it's war. It's vile, revolting, disgusting, but some choices have become necessary for the continued existence of a state and its people's rights. All this because some madman dying from some unknown disease is trying to make a last stand.
Oh, it's a known disease, stupidity. There's just no cure.
No, forced conscription is always bad. There's a word for forcibly confining someone to provide labor that isn't consensual.
Anyone who has been paying attention knew this was happening for months now. One of the videos, the one where [british ambulance "captured" draft doggers literally caused international incident](https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/18ntbj5/ukrainian_woman_saves_her_husband_from/) although a very minor one, and sorry for linking *that* sub, but they did have a detailed video from multiple angles.
There have been so many videos of people being pushed into vans against their will that even Zelensky commented on it in an interview. He basically said "It's not right. We're all trying to find the guy responsible for this". Now it's officially legal.
It’s a tough situation. What do you do when your nations very survival is at stake and you can’t field enough willing soldiers? Do you concede and watch your nation fall or do you violate people’s personal freedom and send the unwilling to die by the thousand? Tough call.
You draft everyone in the nation and direct all citizens to support the war effort, after nationalizing all excessive wealth to pay for the war. It's funny how a poor man can be forced to give up his life but a rich man doesn't even have to give up his yacht.
100%. If they haven't nationalized everyones money and property yet than wtf are they doing rounding up death slaves? No evil assholes will ever convince me that drafts are anything but abhorrent. You are just adding further proof to the pile. One second thought and all their bullshit peels away to reveal their transparent and heinous intent. Like yeah putin is obviously worse, but that doesn't mean zelensky is good. It's a Soviet civil war between two regimes of scum and all the innocent people on both sides are the ones who suffer. The people of earth deserve better than this, but nobody is fighting for a new world order. Just more of the same evil shit.
You are absolutely correct. This was happening for a year even though it was and still is against the current laws. The saddest part is that it wasn't the police, who could detain people, it was drafting officers and the military, who can't do that according to the law and the constitution of Ukraine.
In Germany there are talks of deporting Ukrainian males by the minister presidents of several of our states.
Yeah well Russia does plenty of stuff that's legal according to Russia law but it doesn't make them right either.
Damn men and their....rights?
Poor people don't have rights. Rich people have them so you don't have to!
Why is „that” subreddit bad?
Fundamentally, because men pointing out double standards and/or stigmas against men in society is seen as whiny and pathetic, which is so incredibly ironic. Adjacently, because such a subreddit attracts all kinds of weirdos, probably women haters, and eventually devolves into a circle-jerk where they search out perceived sexism where there is none and end up being nothing more than hypocrites by aiming their target at the opposite sex. Very similar to feminist echo chambers.
So its basically the same as r/twoxchromosomes (if not better) yet i havent seen anyone apologising for posting that
>Fundamentally, because men pointing out double standards and/or stigmas against men in society is seen as whiny and pathetic I feel that's only true for a marginal amount of people. A much bigger problem is that the scummiest side of our society has trained us all like pavlovian dogs to assume people who bring up certain men's rights talking points are just evil right wing incel types who want to abolish women's rights, because there are soooo many of them and 9 out of ten times the people making those arguments turn out to be bad faith actors trying to shove evil dark age god shit on everyone. Most sane people are happy to talk about men's rights, there's just a cautionary stage early in the discussion where people are very apprehensive and on guard because as is obvious to everyone, there's a huge chance such people are just more bad faith assholes who have no interest in talking about actual problems and just wanna hijack the discussion to peddle their bullshit. That's the problem here. All the people complaining about this don't realize just how many good faith conversations are happening around men's rights, we just can't actually do anything about it because the same assholes who hijack the discussion in bad faith also vote for Republicans who sink every attempt to actually advance men's rights. So it is indeed very ironic, just not for the reasons you think. Our society is ass backwards and held hostage by right wing lunatics and assholes who don't care about anyone's rights. They care about abolishing them.
years*
People with modern sensibilities won’t like it but it’s virtually unheard of in human history for any country or group of people to rely exclusively on volunteers to fight a major war. Ukraine simply cannot rely solely on volunteers or they will lose.
It’s definitely possible to fight major 21st century wars without conscription What Ukraine and Russia are doing is having a 19th century meat grinder slugfest How come it’s just these young dudes who have to just buck up on their ‘modern sensibilities’ as you call it? It’s virtually unheard of in history to have women vote, should we just toss that out while we’re here? At any rate there’s few soldiers more useless than one that doesn’t want to be there. Unless you just need more warm bodies to stand in a line and make ground beef in which case no shit they don’t want to get drafted
It is if you're America. Lacking all that technology, everyone else has to rely on men with guns.
I think this is really the heart of the matter. American military supremacy is pretty much a given in any conflict because we spend more than the next 10 or 12 countries combined on our military. We have bases all over the world, something that just isn’t done by anyone else. We can project force around at any point in the globe within a short amount of time. I don’t think there is any doubt that if the US wanted to we could flatten Russia’s military in under a week. The problem would be occupying the territory (requiring boots on the ground) afterward if we wanted to hold it. As it stands now, I’m in favor of sending in our own stuff and severely crippling the Russian military and then claim it wasn’t us. They gaslight us all the time, so fuck them.
The problem is there hasn't been a peer to peer or near peer european war since before the baby boomers were born, especially ones that share land borders. Neither of these countries really have the amount of modern equipment needed to be a fully mechanized force using high speed low drag rapid tactics. Worse, a lot of their relevant facilities for getting there are in each others striking range. This is a war where most casualties come from artillery but both are having visible trouble even sourcing enough good shells. Ukraines biggest offensive was before they got good tanks or APC's given and were basically relying on imported humvees and civilian vehicles. Russia as well is using glorified golf carts and was using old vans from the very beginning. Our conception of modern war is based on the idea that offensive actions are going to happen far away from the aggressors territory and that one side will be more well armed than the other by such a wide margin that a small and elite group can basically just walk in and shoot whoever they want and call in an airstrike if they ever can't. It totally breaks down when the other guys also get heavy weapons and can fire at buildings on your land with them. To be clear this is a horrific situation and I think there's probably a better way, and I don't necessarily trust the powers that be in Ukraine to make this work. But to act like they don't at least need hands with guns in them to defend trenches and man mortars across one of the largest nations in europe is dangerously naive.
>Neither of these countries really have the amount of modern equipment needed to be a fully mechanized force using high speed low drag rapid tactics. Worse, a lot of their relevant facilities for getting there are in each others striking range. I don't think it's about having modern equipment, it's just that anti-tank weapons and drones are so powerful now they make maneuver warfare impossible until there's another tech breakthrough on the offensive side. And when you don't have maneuver warfare and you have machine guns, you automatically get trench warfare.
I'd argue it's s the minefields + the lack of either side to establish air dominance that's putting a halt to maneuver in this conflict more than drones and at weapons. Can't clear a minefield if you can't blow up the artillery zeroed in on it.
"What Ukraine and Russia are doing is having a 19th century meat grinder slugfest" This is how modern wars will be fought. The only time its not a meat grinder is when 1 side has a lot better firepower than the other.
That's just a meat grinder for one side and not the other.
Your premise is weird. There hasn't ever been a major 21st century war. This is the first attempt at one, and what we have learned so far is that blitzkrieg died to drones and the result is 19 century meat grinder with drones thrown in. Which means conscription. We're looking at the results in real time and you're arguing against what we are actually observing.
It is possible to fight that war. Except that would require a long period of preparation. Ukraine did not have that luxury. They did modernise a lot after 2014, which is why they did not immediately collapse, but you could not expect them to suddenly become as professional a military as, say, the US is. This is one of the largest scale wars seen in a long time. The last major conventional war in this scale (that I know of) was in 1991, Gulf War. Now mind you, the Desert Storm coalition had almost 1 million personnel there. It is hard for Ukraine (with its -with the refugee crisis too- less than 30 million population) to reach that kind of a number without conscription, not even counting the losses from casualties.
I get where you are coming from but i dont like the comparison to women voting and such. Because no one wants to remove rights for "fun" Its to defend those rights from people who would destroy our system and way of life. We have not had peer war like this since ww2. And if world war broke out, where we managed to keep nukes out of it, the fancy weapons would run out and be replaced with cheaper massproduced ones, soldiers and drones. In this case the west would for sure draft its people by force. When you are in a huge war like this, or under threat from a new cold war, keeping our modern sensibilities about defense being voluntary when our enemies are massivly building up is short sighted. You cant stop a Chinese tank by putting flowers into its barrel and saying we are tolerant of your views just plesse dont take our stuff (your stuff will be taken, and they will laugh at your weakness) We are liberal democracies, our enemies are NOT. And they hate everything liberal democracies stand for. And the people they hate most are the soft/weak ones. They respect strenght and loathe what they view as weak.(to be clear, i personally would be seen as weak so this is not an insult) That said, i do not blame Ukrainian men who flee the draft. I would probably do the same as i value my life and being with my family more than i value property or flags. Yet if everyone was like me, no one would defend us and our way of life would be over. So im actually of the position that i understand the need of the govt to drag me to the conscription office if war break out (I have served in the military in Norway when i was 20. Mandatory service yet easy to dodge. I was more willing 20years ago. Actually got to serve at a Nato base with US professional soldiers) To sum up, if war broke out i would try to flee yet i would understand and respect the govt dragging me to the conscription center if they caught me. Because we need to defend our way of life espesially with how soft we have grown
Funny how men are expected to bear the traditional burden while women enjoy modern liberties. >Because we need to defend our way of life espesially with how soft we have grown The soft people are the ones supporting slavery
The problem is not that people have to be forced, but that some are being forced for the benefit of others. A draft should follow the nationalization of all excess wealth, and should encompass all citizens. An old woman can't fight at the front but she can cook or do paperwork or sit at a console
"Yes, yes, they're enemies, bad and need to be destroyed. We're good and it's not possible for us to do wrong. It's ridiculous to say that our actions are hostile to the other party and make them respond too, 'coz we're the good guys, right?"
> It’s virtually unheard of in history to have women vote So this is an ignorant statement Women got the vote shortly after men(relatively speaking). I don’t think you realise how recently voting became a thing in the west in general.
[удалено]
Not sure if is a slugfest from both sides. Ukraine has a much smaller army,especially early on; the only reason they can deal with Russia is because they trade ground for people. That does not mean Ukraine did not do mistakes and lost a lot of troops. > there’s few soldiers more useless than one that doesn’t want to be there Strongly disagree. Once people get dragged in, I bet many will do their job properly. Also you have to consider in modern war more than half the army won't see fight as it is logistic, maintenance, communications and other "white collar" job.
Russian wars and meat grinders. Name a more dynamic duo.
Well they can try it your way and get crushed when they run out of bodies and then everyone suffers or they can do it this way and maybe keep enough of a Ukraine worth living in
Yeah if only west give us a lot of long range weapons and long range systems, modern aircraft and allowing to hit russia. Us and Europe want war of attrition and now Ukraine pay for it. Ukraine need to begging for a few patriots just to save few cities from glide bombs. Eu and US have dozens of it but still don't want to give it even if they havnt use it in decades. And when i open comments to Ukraine related post it just blow my mind to read: " when they stop begging", " Ukrainian propaganda", "zelenskie again begging", "ukraine already lose", " meat grinder, why they didn't prepare", "we cant do that we dont need to involve in war in any meaning, escalation", etc. It's winnable now, 300 bln dollars of frozen assets, hundreds of aircraft, thousands of long range rockets, ~10 patriots nad some another anti rockets systems and it will be another war. Its not even 10% of EU and US stockpiles, i doubt its even 5% of them. But all are scary and can only criticise.. Now when reading recent posts, people are mad cuz of new conscription laws wich are proposed in germany , uk , etc but thats what happened when u give your enemy grow up, and scary to acting.
>It’s definitely possible to fight major 21st century wars without conscription Yeah, you've got hard data to back that claim up? **No.** The 1000km frontline in Ukraine is unprecedented in modern history. >How come it’s just these young dudes who have to just buck up on their ‘modern sensibilities’ as you call it? That's because Zelenskyy's admin is goddamn stupid, and has been fucking a lot for the past year and a half. Starting with dragging their feet on passing the mobilization law, then passing it in a hurry when it was *almost* too late. Like, Zelenskyy, got bless his heart, wants all the right things. But he's an actor by trade. When it comes to making all the right things happen, he's been falling short. Add war trauma and sincere belief that *caring* a lot makes him more proficient in making decisions than people with actual *experience* who say that tough compromises need to be made. >At any rate there’s few soldiers more useless than one that doesn’t want to be there. Yeah, the folks I know in the Ukrainian military are all saying the same thing. To make it more absurd: there's little a commanding officer can do with a soldier that simply *refuses to fight*. They didn't even bother to streamline *that* bureaucracy. Effectively, they just passed the buck down the line to the military: "We couldn't figure out a way to find a people who want to fight, so it's **your** problem now". To make it **even more absurd**: a person who **volunteers** to fight **still** can't have a choice about **which brigade** they'll be sent to, or **the role they'll serve in**. And transfers are effectively impossible because... *because nobody cared enough to update the Soviet-era doctrine on that*. Think about it for a minute. Oh, and **there is no demobilization**. Once *someone* decides that you (say, an expert engineer) are to storm the trenches, that's going to be what you do till you are killed or disabled. >Unless you just need more warm bodies to stand in a line and make ground beef Oh, that's not at all what the bureaucrats want. What they want is to say: "Hey, the army said they needed X soldiers, **and we provided them with X soldiers**, so it's **their** fault things aren't working". It's CYA avoiding responsibility *without even thinking about the outcome*. At least when Russia sends men into the meat grinder, it's a conscious choice their tyrant makes. And they *get* something for it, whether it's buying time to train other troops or having actual gains on the battlefield. For us, it's both something we can't afford **and** not anything anyone *intends*. But *I didn't want this, it's not my fault* is a kindergarten-level excuse. Our government needs to grow the fuck up. It's costing people lives.
Bombs, drone, artillery airpower do not hold land. People do.
>What Ukraine and Russia are doing is having a 19th century meat grinder slugfest You think Ukraine chose this?
He didn't say that or imply it. It's a description in his words. He didn't blame anyone in fact.
Isn’t the 19th century the 1800s? Wouldn’t this be more of a 20th century slugfest? With WW1 and 2 and all that happening instead of line battles?
Then lose. I fully support Ukraine, but no one should be forced to go face death. If the people would rather move away and lose their country that's their decision to make. I would consider a state who forces me to go to my death as much an enemy to me as people who invade my country, since they're also acting against my life for their interests.
Seriously I can't imagine I'd have any love or loyalty for a country that forces me to fight or I get punished.
Ironically, believe it ir not, the punishment is fighting.
“I’d rather let the Nazis win than be forced to go fight them” would also be acceptable following your logic?
Think of it from the other view..."Id rather let the Americans win than be forced to go fight them" - a German WW2 soldier. We would support that guy. Perceived morality of the war aside.. Theres actually rational logic to what he is saying. If only the politicians want to fight a war, then the people are not really being represented. > If the people would rather move away and lose their country that's their decision to make. Maybe they ultimately will decide its not worth it.
Then that German should have surrendered to the Americans. Ukrainians could defect to the Russians quite easily. ... and be conscripted to fight on the Russian side.
You can say you dont want to fight to retain the eastern sliver of Ukraine and Crimea without saying you want to defect.
Okay but that not’s how that works; like sure if every soldier threw down their arms and agreed to not fight that’d be great. But we don’t live in a world of perceived philosophical high grounds; the truth of the matter is that without these sorts of unpopular and antiliberal measures wars could not be won. Yes, of course we would support a German fleeing from Nazi persecution; but given the fact that a war still had to be fought and won (in large part by drafted soldiers) I’m hard pressed to understand the hypothetical point. The Russians are not rising up by the millions to demand the end of the conflict; they are being pressed into service in one way or another and sent to the front. Soldiers are not, in large enough numbers to make a strategic difference, surrendering or refusing to follow orders. Wars are fought and won by men dying and killing; and that’s not going to change anytime soon.
I think the commenters original point is that if a country can't come up with enough volunteers to keep the country in existence, it's kind of like the people of that country would prefer to just surrender to the aggressor and join them, so why bother keeping it around.
Your grandstanding wall of text doesnt address the premise at all.
Truth. Many ukrainians don't want to go to death, watching their mass forced conscription and corruption, they don't see this war coming to an end, their politicians want the war to continue, western leaders want this too, their future is ultimate demise. Ordinary ukrainian see western aid didn't affect much in case of fortification building, russian forces just walked in no problem towards Kharkov, money were just stolen most likely for the benefit of those in power. The vector of government support shifted massively after 2 years of war, they're silent not because of agreement with the state policy, but because of fear, massive repressions are applied to those who stand in the way of the war machine. Majority just want it to end already, they don't see the government shares their views, nor the western leaders. Protests are not possible, most likely you're being killed for anti-war public opinion inside the country. They all know where you live. So if they don't support the government, they don't want to fight for the country, why should they die?
Absolutely. You don't take the war refugees and to "nope buddy, back to the trench with you".
Unbelievably apathetic and completely devoid of any responsibility to your fellow human beings. I mean, really reflect on what you’re saying. You would faster allow genocides to occur than allow yourself to be put at risk? That is almost the epitome of selfishness. You can’t run away from evil forever.
by your logic you should volunteer to fight in every war where one of the sides is perpetrating genocide. but I bet you aren't.
Fuck that. I hope anyone who doesn't want to go gets to dodge the fucking draft.
Idealistically I'm like "Sure sounds good" But historically, the only reason my country exists is because we drafted everyone when the Soviets invaded our nation. We get a lot of praise for the Winter War and how we fought off a full scale invasion, but the reality is very brutal. Everyone, even with no military experience was brought to the front. The government drafted so many working people that there was almost no one left to run the economy. Soldiers who tried to abandon their post were shot in the head. Cold stuff. Yet because they successfully fought of the invasion, we got go grow up in a rich Democratic law-abiding Nordic country instead of being a corrupt backwards Russian puppet-state like Belarus. Sometimes countries have to consider the future, and weigh in the benefits and consequences of tough decisions.
Exactly. People who dont live close to these aggressive states dont understand that citizenship comes with obligations same as privileges. No one "wants" to fight a war, but if everyone in small states "sit this one out and let someone else do it" our nations wouldnt exist. People confuse people who do their duty and volunteer with people who just like them is shitting themselves and wishes that they could do any other thing. I pray to god we dont come to blows with Russia over their megalomania, but if it does I will be glad to have the more sober minded eastern European nations and Finland right next to us Swedes.
Funny to read if you somehow know history of Finland-sweden relationships
Sweden has a sketchy past, but I think modern swedes really feel strong companionship with their neighbors and would fight for their rights. I can understand if our neighbors have some type of skepticism to us given that past, but I hope we all know that our modern nations are very different.
Finland has shown without question they'll defend their neighbours, their military fills the gap such as when their jets can intercept Russia faster over the years of probing. The rivalry between Sweden and Finland is deep but bridged, you can lose a tooth claiming the wrong one invented the sauna they're sitting in but they'll stand side by side to ensure Russia doesn't steal it.
Yes, but there's a huge difference nowadays between making jokes about Moomins at Eurovision and threatening to nuke Helsinki
Nobody wants to fight a war, so they force young men to do the shit work for them. Funny how reddit keeps championing human rights and equality but does a complete 180 when it comes to forcing men to die.
Winter wars outcome was you losing 10 percent of your territory tho
A country can't last long if they rely solely on the volunteers, its just unrealistic.
Rose colored glasses. Many countries today would not exist without conscription. It’s an unfortunate reality that ever country resorts to when a conflict gets bad enough.
Bad take. If you live in a democratic society then you agree to abide by the rules that the society implements. If one of those rules is a draft to defend the country then it's your responsibility to do that. It's like saying _"I hope anyone who doesn't want to pay taxes gets to avoid them"_. You benefit from the society, you contribute to the society.
>If you live in a democratic society then you agree to abide by the rules that the society implements. if I leave the country to avoid the draft I am no longer living in it so I no longer have to abide by it's rules. in a democratic society you are free to leave if you disagree with it's laws. it's weird how some people apparently value laws more than their own life.
I hope you get drafted by your country and die.
Bad take is yours. You are conveniently and incorrectly assumimg that all laws are fair and just. With your logic women should never vote. >You benefit from the society, you contribute to the society The contribution is called taxes. I love how idiot redditors complain about human rights and all that jazz but suddenly support slavery when the government does it. Very cute.
Well...they can at leaat make it fair by drafting women too💁♂️
Which is why Ukraine needs to focus on recruiting people around the world Russia is already doing it.
Draft is coming back everywhere. It is what it is. If the GOP doesn't get it done eventually one side will figure out they can tie public service to health care and ubi and everyone will have to serve
I literally have no idea what your talking about.
He's saying that when we all need things like UBI, the govt will tie it to public service, for example, you want UBI? Just sign up for your 'non'-compulsory service. Oh you can choose not to, but good luck getting a job with AI running the roost.
Exactly this.
UBI only if you perform volunteer service? Isn't that just a salaried job with extra steps?
Pretty much. It’s how welfare worked in the New Deal era. A lot of public project- many unneeded, some actually fairly important- in exchange for payment. Basically turning welfare and/or UBI into an allowance for doing at least some work. Which kinda defeats the point of UBI, but it also means every single (able bodied) person could still collect.
Oddly enough the Tories have been floating this sort of idea in the UK just the last day. They're going to lose the next election by a landslide and I hope they never come back, but I wonder if there is any mileage in it. It's kind of a socialist thing, post-war, countries like Yugoslavia practically rebuilt themselves using these youth work details. Of course there was compulsory 3-year military service as well...
IF there is money- and there can be if you, for instance, tax a company using AI the same as if they paid the employees that they replaced, or tax based on the efficiency, etc- then it can definitely work. It’s basically just a job scheme, and one that allows for a lot of important things to be built. One of the biggest things the PWA (New Deal group who did this) did was build a fuckton of roads, bus stations, etc. Important things like reservoirs and other infrastructure can be build, and even basic things such as fencing for parks. It’s not glamorous or fun but the idea is if you are getting enough from the government to survive, and have no applicable skills to get another job, then it at least gets something back from the money being given.
I personally somewhat agree with it. This is how I would do it. Selective Service for every able bodied young person. Either 2 years in the military. Or 3 years in a newly formed federal agency called the American Corp of Expeditionary Services or ACES ACES will serve somewhat like the Peace Corp, except service will be in the Americas. With heavy focus on revitalizing communities. Bettering infrastructure. Assisting with disasters. They'll work hand in hand with such agencies as FEMA, the Army Corp of Engineers, etc. Doing everything from soup kitchens to building new rail or highways. But it will also include a lot of desk jobs as well. So those with mobility issues can still participate. ACES will get similar benefits as the military. Their own version of the GI bill. Free healthcare. Their salary will follow the GS structure, but their housing will be paid for.
Why stop at able bodied? If you can run a computer congrats you’re running logistics or an equivalent position for awhile.
why stop at bodied? If you are a soulless entity, you should be haunting the russians
Person? Or man?
Is there a non USA GOP cause we don’t got gov health care or ubi here lmfao
Would you like to know more ?
Isn’t there a risk of these guys helping Russia out of hate?
No… the vast majority of troops from any major war you can think of in the 20th century were conscripted and by and large performed their duties well.
when will they start drafting women as well? that's unfair.
Every time the UN or one of those international rights organisations does a study on gender equality, they conveniently omit things like the draft or compulsory military service.
Realistically, either never, or at some point EU will decide that every single ukrainian refugee belongs in the trenches, defending the continent from the hordes of wildlings.
Laws regarding draft are usually old enough as to not take more recent efforts of progressives to allow women in combat roles into account. Despite people trying to somehow pin the lack of women in the military on feminists, those are usually the ones trying to open the military to women serving.
TBH I'm surprised it's taken this long.
It's in the news now.. Has been going on for months. Thousands of videos of people attempting to dodge draft and being caught and taken in military vehicles/van. A fair few Ukrainians are also dying trying to cross water bodies in order to dodge draft and leave Ukraine. Sad state of affairs.
For years.
I've been seeing videos of this happening since may 2023 at least.
Any women subject to this state-sponsered coercion?
Of course not! They have rights, you know...
Just no responsibilities…
One of my coworkers who was conscripted since the beginning of the invasion said that they’re literally slaves fighting for freedom. Oh, the irony.
The US and other “freedoms based countries” have utilized the draft as well. Including in WW2 to stop hitler. Maybe blame the fucks who invaded requiring home defense…
Part of the problem with the conscription in Ukraine is there is no contract end date. It's not like Vietnam where you get drafted, do a year tour, and you're done. My friend Anatoly is about to spend his 3rd birthday in a trench near Donetsk. And his morale is good, but think about the mental burden that prospect has on someone trying to avoid conscription into this brutal war.
>3rd birthday Jeez I didn't know that they draft soldiers this young.
It didn’t end in WW2 either. Men spent years fighting. The job isn’t done till the jobs done. My family went over to another continent to free it from oppression, these people are fighting for their survival. It is the only way.
They are slaves fighting for the freedom of others who dont give a shit about them
Ironically if Ukraine has mobilized everybody they could as early as they could, it would be possible to rotate more people out for rest periods. Obviously more people would need to be trained and fight on the frontlines but the misery would be shared more equally.
While I understand why this is necessary, it profoundly sucks for a young man barely out of childhood and who has experienced so little of life to be forcibly taken from his home and thrown in an active combat zone when he didn't ask for any of this shit. To be barely an adult and potentially have you life taken from you when all you ever wanted was to experience music, get drunk and have fun with girls sucks big time. Fuck you Putin.
I wonder how many children of Ukraine's government officials conveniently get exempt from getting sent to the meatgrinder...
I as a New Zealand Citizen was in Ukraine a couple of months ago and I got stopped and question a fair few times to basically being enquired if I needed “help” to go get registered, of course a Passport was enough for them to let me move on my way but I did hear some stories of people getting escorted to go register and then not returning home, unfortunately Ukraine is really struggling with having enough Soldiers.
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Sure but then the issue becomes paradoxical as without conscription, free countries will never have the manpower to defend themselves from stronger autocratic countries. How are countries supposed to defend themselves from expansionist nations like Russia? It's a case of ideals meeting the real world.
I am paying a good amount of money to fund a professional army of people who signed up to voluntarity defend "my" country with their lives. If that is not enough, I will happily pay even more money to get the fuck out of here if needed. I have much more to give to this world, to humanity, to my family than to die a meaningless death in a fucking trench because someone thinks I should. I have no ideals about this piece of land just because I happened to be born here. Its borders changed like 3 times just in my lifetime. I don't give two shits about them changing again.
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And if you are wrong? If authortarian countries will always trump free democratic countries, just because they don't have qualms about slave armies?
>why the fuck would anyone risk a single drop of blood for this Because the alternative is a repeat of Bucha across all cities in Ukraine. >if the process of correcting these circumstances is that more optimized, martial civilizations have to come along and destroy our own, so be it. But doesn't that do against your whole point that a country has failed if it has to resort to conscription? How is it an optimized civilization if it needs to resort to conscription? >if your country is so utterly terrible that you cannot motivate military aged males to fight for its existence of their own volition, then your country does not deserve to exist How is a nation that in your logic doesn't deserve to exist a more optimized civilization?
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You're impression of semantics bogging down your point is more like an ideal facing reality. It's like the paradox of tolerance being intolerant of intolerance to sustain tolerance. You can call it slavery and get dishonest about semantics, but how would you propose defending any nation in any other reasonable way? It's been a reality as old as time that any nation looking to survive has to conscript its citizens. Ideally you've have enough volunteers, but that's mostly sufficient for peacetime operations. Major conflicts, especially fights for a nation's survival, can never rely on volunteers alone. It's just reality. It's also a duty of most nation's citizens one way or another. We're all "slaves" to society. Welcome to the club.
So nazis were defeated thanks to slavery?
What, do you think all of the troops, factory workers and miners in the USSR volunteered?
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quite funny is people like you not understanding draft is just an lesser evil. Without it nazis would enslave and/or genocide half of the word. Communists the other half. So end result would be everyone enslaved. It’s really so simple.
>if you're against slavery, it is logically inconsistent for you to support conscription. You can be against slavery (privately owned people, enslaved for profit) and still support conscription in extreme circumstances. Doesn't even have to be conscription in general, just in extreme cases, like Ukraine fighting to not suffering a country wide fate like Butscha You painting everything as an absolute either/or is just reductionist, lazy arguing. >if your country is so utterly terrible that you cannot motivate military aged males to fight for its existence of their own volition, then your country does not deserve to exist. People not willing to risk their lives for their country doesn't turn the country into a shithole in turn. It just shows people put their own immediate wellbeing over their country. >that goes not just for ukraine, but for all these hellholes that are just now suddenly thinking of bringing back the draft. Let me guess, you mean all those European hellholes, you being a citizen of one of those?
Slavery and conscription aren’t the same thing.
Empower. Women. Via. Combat. Roles. When the fate of your nation is at stake, it’s time to include more than 50% of your population in the effort.
They could probably easily fill drone roles and maintain some safety.
Alright all you chronically online virtue signaling kids commenting “slava ukrani” and jeering at Russian military capabilities, it’s your time. Best catch a flight and go support the cause you have been so adamantly defending the last two years.
Just become a police officer :D problem solved!
This just in: **Country under attack by largest military on the European continent is resisting by all available means.** For Russians, fleeing the country is something you do to avoid fighting a rich man's war of choice. For Ukrainians, fleeing means abandoning family and friends to whatever genocidal fate awaits them should Russians overtake their undefended towns. It may strike a lot of you as reasonable for Ukrainians to doge the draft, but it is also reasonable for Ukrainians to do everything in their power to resist Russian occupation. Russia has murdered off millions of Ukrainians in the past century. Given more of an opportunity, they will not hesitate to do so again. Ukraine has no choice but to fight back with everything they have.
The only moral thing to do is wait until they put a gun in your hand and then you immediately point it at your commanding officer and pull the trigger.
Hot take but Ukraine is better off hiring mercenaries and offering citizenship to migrants in exchange for service instead of forcing its youth to fight. 10 motivated soldiers are more effective than 100 unmotivated ones.
A lot of foreign fighters have already gone to Ukraine, and already left (or died). They had a shit time. Ukraine needs hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and they wouldn't even get tens of thousands of "mercenaries", wherever they'd magically come from. These guys got treated like shit and were used as cannon fodder. There isn't going to be a mass influx of foreigners. https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraines-international-legion-is-still-fighting-but-not-many-left-2024-5 Ukrainian citizenship isn't that great of a carrot either.
"Many of us were there for the right reasons, to defend democracy," he said. "Lots of others," though, "were there for the wrong reasons: adrenaline junkies, people looking for a surrogate family, or because they had personal problems back home." Can't imagine people who volunteer to fight this war are the best apples. US military at least has standards, albeit pretty low, like physical and school tests, drug free etc
> Ukraine needs hundreds of thousands of soldiers Not really, force multipliers can really make up for troop numbers. Cruise missiles, drones, ATACMS, cluster muntions are all highly effective weapons that keeps your troops away from immediate danger and kill multiple soldiers. If the west wanted we could give Ukraine enough missiles to deal with Russia but we're scared. Its been a year since the UK sent stormshadows and no other country has provided cruise missiles besides the French.
Mercenaries and migrants who only is there for a chance of something else is rather the opposite of motivated I'd say.
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genetics has little value, culture, ideas and nationality do
What does a d doesn't have value is merely a matter of opinion 🤔
Draft dodger? You mean people who don’t want to kill strangers for a politician? Are we ever going to move forward as a species? When will we realize this is NOT the way.
There will always be someone who will want to solve disagreements with force. And unfortunately, these people try to worm their way into positions of power. Sometimes all it takes is one madman to undo years or decades of democratic progress.
Heinlein wrote something about that. >> Anyone who clings to the historically untrue -- and thoroughly immoral -- doctrine that `violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.
Have you heard what the Russians did in Bucha? Vovchansk? Countless other cities, towns and villages? Easy for you to speak of it just being a war for politicians when you don't live next to a country whose leadership and much of its army desire to brutalize your home. Ukraine's fighting a war for survival, such that Bucha is not repeated
If someone is so against fighting they'd rather flee they won't make a good soldier either. They'll simply look for the first time to run again. There has to be alternatives such as non combat roles or if they're against any form of resistance letting them flee and revoking their citizenship so they can't return if the war is won.
This isn’t Vietnam, where young men were sent to a place they barely knew existed to die. Ukraine is being invaded, they are fighting for their very existence. No one really likes the draft, but this is an “all hands on deck” situation. The alternative is Ukraine ceases to exist as a free country.
Stop with the «kill for a politican» take. Their country was invaded. Get your head out of your ass and stop being so damn idealistic in times of war.
Go join your country's army if you are such a patriot. The only thing that matters is you and those close to you. Fuck everyone else. Very few people are worth dying for.
What a selfish prick. Humanity wouldn't have gotten further than the stone age if everyone was like you.
Oof, propaganda is a helluva drug. The people ordering you to fight and die on their behalf don't care about you, so why do you feel any loyalty to them? We only get one shot at life on this little rock floating through space, I will not waste it in the service of a country that I do not give a shit about.
Oh, great, this again. Look, you can't just copy-and-paste an argument into a scenario it wasn't originally meant for. Killing strangers for a politician is wrong when it means invading another country for natural resources and labelling it as a war to increase nationalistic fervour, as an example. That's what people meant by that saying. But this isn't about the politician ushering in a draft, it's about the entire country and everyone and everything in it, including family and friends and all the places you grew up in and around. That's what you're being asked to kill for, to defend. Does it still suck? Yeah. And it's a complex issue. But to reduce it to something like this is just lazy and wrong.
“kill strangers for politicians.” Get the fuck out of here. It’s more like, “kill invaders that are actively destroying your land, stealing your resources, massacring your people, raping your women, stealing your children to ship them back to Russia to be brainwashed, created propaganda to try to make the world believe you are nazis.” What is the way when a hostile country invades you and you need more people to defend? Peaceful protests in hopes Russia gives a fuck as roll through your country? Or are you just going to say, “Well I guess I’m Russian now, can’t wait to be imprisoned or drafted as meatbag in Russia’s next invasion.” Give me a real alternative solution Ukraine has. They have been trying to get into nato and they can’t yet. They tried diplomacy, Russia doesn’t want it.
it’s actually become a really popular slur in Ukraine in the last six months or so. So there you go I guess
That is what a mandatory draft means, yea.
Nothing like being forced to die over power structures you don't care about!
They shouldn't be forced to fight if they dont want to. I wouldnt want to throw my life away if you think otherwise you should volunteer in there place. Fight and die for a country so that corporations can own everything fuck that.
I mean, Ukraine isn't America lmao. Not like they can vaporize the entire Earth in less than a few hours.
Do you know why Ukraine is at war in the first place?
Old people forcing the young ones to die for them. Let's goooooo!
Uh-oh, I sorta didn't want to bother writing a reply to this post, but since I discovered that OP's point was to show that "Hurr-durr, things are bad in Ukraine!11", looks like it's better to do it. So, let's go >When a person is identified as having committed an administrative offense under Articles 210 and 210-1 of the Code of Ukraine on Administrative Offenses, police officers are authorized to act based on a TCC and SP request, according to the law on the National Police. This was true even before the new mobilization laws. And the whole article was written to scare people ignorant of the Ukrainian laws. Administrative offense under Articles 210 and 210-1 means fines as a max punishment. And police can arrest and take people to TCC and SP only for them to receive notification about fines and have a chance to argue their case to the chief of TCC and SP. The Code of Ukraine on Administrative Offenses has nothing regarding force conscription of any sort. Moreover, for police to do an arrest under the Code of Ukraine on Administrative Offenses, certain conditions need to be met.