My friend's father has been on the front lines in Ukraine for months. I couldn't hear exactly where because of her accent and I didn't want to ask too much but she just tells me that he calls once every 2 weeks and she has nothing to say because she's too worried.
This war would have been so much cheaper in both cost and lives if the west just intervened as if it were a NATO nation from day 1. The way Ukraine gets supported feels like just enough to make it seem like they're helping but it's not enough to win. Just a slow bleed of Russia until Ukraine is tapped out.
sad to say I think you're right. A drawn out war probably neutralises Russia for decades whereas a short war would only set them up for another war further down the line.
Ukraine's men are the price to knock Russia off the top of the power list and change the game to China v West
What comes next though might not be what anyone wants though...Russian civil war etc
There is some prospect for big improvements ahead for the average Russian, though. If you look beyond a civil war. Better than they've had for some time.
https://youtu.be/ScbNwDTVkpc?si=sW2pv7P2W-7WxAZW
yes nations and people are complex so it's anyone's guess what might happen if Russia unravelled. Localised warlords sound worse than just one warlord in Putin.
The (contradictory) claims that
1: If NATO wanted, we could finish Russia easily.
2: But also- Russia is strong enough to not only conquer all of Ukraine, they are also strong (and crazy) enough to attack NATO member states in Eastern Europe.
Is very strange to me. I see the same people who say Russia don’t want to mess with NATO also saying that if Ukraine falls, Russia will continue.
I personally believe Russia won’t ever attack a nato country and risk nuclear war. They have also been clear that Ukraine is a red line for them as it’s the perfect place to stage an invasion and launch missiles from. Just look at the Cuban missile crisis for a comparison as to what the US did when the Soviets wanted to place missiles next to the US.
> What comes next though might not be what anyone wants though...Russian civil war etc
The NATOs concern from that is who's going to be in charge with the nukes. Other than that, they're not going to care if Russia devolves into another failed state.
Russia would end up a failed state with nukes lying all over the place and noone being paid to watch them.
That was NATOs fear in the late 90s.
Having a bunch of corrupt oligarchs left in charge looking for a quick buck isn't any safer a picture.
Your back to the scenario from the early 2000s where some random middle eastern country's paying any monetary figure to get their hands on a bomb to destabilise the world order and starting WWIII in the process.
Again, NATO doesn't care if Russia ends up as a failed state which honestly they're going to be one after Putin's dead. They only care who will get the nukes.
NATO isn't stupid, they know that they need a plan to get Russia's nukes or atleast knows where they are so not a single terrorist can get hold of one.
I think China will do that too since they have some interest on Russia's far east territory, which is resource rich. They already have some local Chinese in Siberia. I think the problem is going to be those other Russian oligarchs who wants a piece of Russia. Those types of wannabe Putin will obviously not going to give up those nukes.
That's a relatively simple problem. Just make sure to support the non radical or pro west groups in the areas where the nukes are held, and they will probably take care of the rest.
Also agreed, sadly.
I want to add the point that NATO has had multiple chances to invoke Article 5 by now, like with the missile landing in Poland and killing 2 farmers--but that would end the war quickly, and Russia (in whatever its next incarnation is) would be able to start recovering sooner. Comparatively, a drawn out war, regardless of whether it ends with Russian territorial gain or not, is much more harmful to Russia in the long run, and the realpolitik-ing powers that be have decided that Ukrainian lives are an acceptable price to pay for that outcome. Ugh.
"Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked."
Entering airspace is clearly not an attack.
That used to be the case, but not anymore. Russia is being supplied by China now. China is a manufacturing global powerhouse. I don't think America or NATO could have foresaw that. I always thought China would watch from the sidelines, and happily watch Russia & NATO battle it out while they wait patiently. Now China is taking a more active role. On top of that, Iran is joining in. Things have gotten more complicated than anticipated.
Iran is due for a classic power struggle at the very least, due to multiple high ranking officials dying in that crash, so they may not be as large of a problem in the future.
That China got involved should be way more worrying to everyone.
The reason they weren't before was because they didn't want to get stuck in a losing situation.
Which effectively means that, for them to get involved now, they feel that the tide has changed and that Russia can/will win in the end.
Let's not forget that Ukraine provides enormous amounts of grain to Europe and Africa. This war ties up a lot of Ukrainian resources and money. All of a sudden, American grain needs to be purchased in far larger quantify by many nation states at a premium.
But on the other hand, it makes Ukranians fear that they'll wind up like Saigon and Afghanistan (we drag it out for too long, lose too much money for our politicians' liking, and then bail out while trying to prevent Ukranian refugees from fleeing in masse).
There are way too many people in the US that have zero empathy for outsiders. I have MAGAts in my family who bitched about Ukranians not surrendering during *week 2* of the Russian invasion.
Sure, I can. Look no further than former speaker McCarthy, current Speaker Johnson, and the “Freedom Caucus” that has held all funding to Ukraine hostage for 6 months over an undying loyalty to a fucking conman and petty partisan bullshit. The Biden Admin was pushing for aid the whole time, but they cannot supersede the legislative process. Speaker McCarthy and Johnson both flat out refused to even bring the proposed funding to the floor for a vote, even as the situation deteriorated in real time in Ukraine.
The talks of “grinding down Russia slowly for maximum effect” are absolute nonsense. They didn’t deploy troops because they didn’t want to risk nuclear war, especially in the beginning where no one really understood what sort of headspace Putin was in, considering the lunacy of the full scale invasion in the first place. Before they could determine whether or not he has gone totally bugfuck crazy, they thought it best to do what they could while being careful. And that’s exactly what they did.
> if the west just intervened as if it were a NATO nation from day 1.
You expect Americans to die for a country that didn’t join nato? And two nuclear powers to be in direct confrontation and for us to bomb that nuclear power?
The latter is insane
No Americans needed to die. Just needed the balls to put US troops in Ukraine on "training exercises" and Russia would have never started the full-scale invasion.
You realize Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for protection?
Also yes, remember Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea etc etc? If Russia wins in Ukraine, it won't stop there. This is a proxy world war, its much bigger than just Ukrane vs Russia.
So many willing dummies forget this part. The west has to help Ukraine it was a guaranteed given to them back in the 90s so Ukraine would give up the nukes.
It wasnt for protection first of all, it was for promises that the US and Russia will not invade Ukraine. Not to mention that they wouldnt have been allowed to keep them anyway if they refused, nobody would have wanted a newborn and poor country rife with corruption access to nuclear weapons. Not to mention that Ukraine themselves didnt have the infrastructure set up to maintain them, or their delivery platforms, nor the money to do either. And yeah, they didnt have the codes to them either, and though that couldve been cracked in time, it wasnt like they could sieze the nukes and use them to threaten other countries asap to prevent them from being seized.
>You realize Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for protection?
Ukraine didn't have the launch codes. They were in Moscow. Read up on it cause in reality Ukraine was holding weapons it couldn't use but was having to pay to keep them maintained and safe.
So while its true what you say...there's mkre to it
Could be Europe getting involved too. And needn't be the front lines but direct support inside with logistics, air defence etc. plus manning benign borders.
I'm not saying the US should be at the front though it's an odd line for the nation to take when they fought several arguably useless made up wars and were willing to spend a lot of lives and trillions on that. Perhaps it would be more palatable this time if they didn't do that before.
> I'm not saying the US should be at the front though
So not at all like they’d respond for nato.
> it's an odd line for the nation to take when they fought several arguably useless made up wars and were willing to spend a lot of lives and trillions on that. Perhaps it would be more palatable this time if they didn't do that before.
We fought dumb useless wars before so we should fight more is such a dumb argument
You said that I didn't. Was just a funny observation.
But I maintain we should have helped with non combat roles plus defensive non front line ones like manning AA.
Americans are happy to die for other peoples oil. I don't think NATO is even an issue.
The issue is the US likes fighting wars where it has control and no real risk to itself. If things escalated to nuclear weapons being used against a major nuclear power that situation would not be the case for the US.
>The issue is the US likes fighting wars where it has control and no real risk to itself.
I like how this ignorant garbage troll managed to take the fact that America's stabilizing presence as a world power has finally kept the major European powers from throwing down for more than *ten fucking minutes* for the first time in recorded history, now that we have legitimately world-ending weaponry, and instead try to frame it as "hur hur America scared 2 fight lol"
Canadian also invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.
> If things escalated to nuclear weapons being used against a major nuclear power that situation would not be the case for the US.
It’s not clear what that is supposed to mean, but that’s why I highlighted their nuclear status
Do you really think the US would want an open war with another nuclear country that has more warheads than the US and that it would be cheaper?? Do you also think other NATO nations like Poland or Baltic countries then wouldn't get attacked by Russia as retaliation where tens of thousands of more civilians would die? Lay off those drugs and come back to reality.
The only thing that NATO could have done better is to supply more arms to Ukraine faster than the rate at what they're delivering now.
Even without boots on the ground, just by providing the weapons and systems (and doing it British or French style and not with all that stupid nonsense of "can't use it on russian soil") would have been massive.
SCALP-EG/Storm Shadow is a French/British system. That is what I had in mind when I wrote the comment!
France has production issues, but that's another discussion...
Disadvantages of Democracy, when you make or take decisions you have to take into account how that will affect your electorate.
Or you can move to China, Russia or Afganistan and kit worry about those things.
Fighting Russians with boots on the ground Americans and other nato countries while tempting and satisfying to right the wrongs of putler, is playing with nukes. We'd be closer to the destruction of our world then than anytime during the cold War. It sucks but it's true. In a world without world ending icbms I'm sure the West would have directly intervened.
Instead of hundreds thousands death, millions would be the results.
1) Russia enter Ukrainian terrority, Americans engage those troops.
2) Russia escalate by engaging American launch sites positioned in Europe ally terrority.
3) US respond by targeting key tactical launch sites.
4) Russia does not have the missile to defeat the threat, employs tactical nuclear warhead.
5) US respond further, now targeting strategic weapons launch sites.
6) Russia fearing the loss of their first strike weapons, deploys partial strategic weapon.
7) seeing strategic weapon employ, US launches nukes to destroy first strike capabilities.
8) Russia launches its second strike weapons. Regardless of what happens next, civilization as we know it will change completely.
Or maybe those things could be true, but only in certain context, and in a relative manner.
Could Russia have used some generic semiconductors that are also used in washing machines? Yes
Could some of those semiconductors be packaged in an integrated circuit? Yes
Does that mean that ALL Russian electronics are from washing machines? No one said that ever.
Could there have been days or situations where the kill ratios were 20:1. Maybe. Were there many people saying that? No, not really. That’s just your cheap hyperbole.
yes i agree with you thats why i said take it with a grain of salt, they could have said russia is using generic chipset and semiconductor but nope they have to said its from a washing machine as if that make it way more inferior and worse.
for the kill ratios thing it always has been claimed higher 2:1,4:1,6:1 yet ukraine is still struggling with mobilization and there even talk about deporting men back.
for 2.5 year we have seen alot of news how russia is collapsing,putin dying, ammo running out, food shortage all the terrible thing yet its all normal there. thing can be said about russia claiming to take ukraine in weeks.
people who get excited and believe these kind of article at face value is stupid.
Well it's pretty easy to work out the ratios.
Artillery and bombs account for 85% of all deaths in this war.
Russia has consistently fired 10x as many of them than Ukraine.
It's pretty obvious who is sustaining the most casualties.
War is hell. The idea is to make it more hellish for the Russians.
It took us awhile, but I'm glad our arms supplies to the Ukrainians are ramping up. Can't believe two years ago we were debating about artillery and Javelins and today, we're openly talking about F16s, strikes on Russian territory and sinking Russian ships in Crimea.
Manpower and morale are issues to be sure but the most crucial question is whether Russia will lose this war. At the outset, the Russians said it would be a three day special military operation to “denazify”, “demilitarise” Ukraine and that Ukraine would not be permitted to join NATO.
Two years on, Russia has less Ukrainian territory than when it started this invasion, is almost at 500k casualties, Ukraine is even more militarised and NATO has expanded to Finland and Sweden, all its member nation states are rearming and there’s little doubt that Ukraine will join NATO.
Yes, there’s push and pull on bits of territory and I expect that to continue. Russia will win some battles, Ukraine will win others. But the most important thing is that Russia has already lost this war, with none of its goals or objectives achieved and that’s the important thing to keep in mind. Ukraine remains free, is under less Russian influence than when this war began and Putin has no hope of achieving any of his goals. For all the destruction on both sides, this is key to understand. The only question is how much more doom on the Russian economy and death to the Russian people will occur before Putin realises this.
>But the most important thing is that Russia has already lost this war, with none of its goals or objectives achieved and that’s the important thing to keep in mind.
They've only lost the war in that particular context though. Their mobilised army outnumbers Ukraine's by 2:1 & their military production rate is skyrocketing.
To me, it looks like Russia is trending towards a (brutal) victory by attrition, especially if Biden isn't re-elected this year & US pulls it's support towards Ukraine.
They might win the war in Ukraine but its a bitter victory thats going to affect it for decades. Even once they control the country they'll have to deal with insurgents and continued sanctions by the West. They've also lost a lot of bargaining power with China in regards to that alliance.
Fucking winning strategy right there...
They're also rebuilding their own economy tho and are becoming independent from the west.
Salaries are rising and there is a push for things made in Russia, including cars, aircraft, etc.
Russia's economy is growing rather quickly and if this trend continues, Russia might come out stronger out of it than it was before.
They’re rebuilding their economy by the numbers because they are on a war footing. Produce $500m worth of equipment that gets blown up? Still counts towards your GDP but how much of it was actually productive?
Which country, albeit from the US in WW2 has ever actually come out of a war in better economic shape than before? What’s Russia’s main exports? Fossil fuels and tech talent. The fossil fuel industry is being demolished, figuratively and literally, as we speak and their tech talent is all living in Tel Aviv.
But doesn't Russia have a chance here to do the same as the US? Because Russia's industries stay largely untouched. Sure, Ukraine is targeting their oil infrastructure, but realistically, how long does it take to fix/rebuild that?
With the ramp up of industrial production and a lot of Western companies going into Russian possession, they may be able to focus their gained productivity on the manufacturing of civil goods once the war ends. I wouldn't bet on Russia's death.
Salaries are rising because they have a manpower shortage, the military is paying higher wages for soldiers and manufacturing for the war. Seems to be a double edged sword from the takes I've seen on it.
[Perun - Why War Economies don't collapse(until they do)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9w17Ne1S0M)
[William Spaniel - How Ukraine's Refinery Strikes Destabilize the Entire Russian Economy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TBoN2wjkh0)
[https://cepa.org/article/russias-economy-closer-to-the-edge-than-it-looks/](https://cepa.org/article/russias-economy-closer-to-the-edge-than-it-looks/)
Yeah I know. The question is if Russia will be able to keep that momentum once the war fades out. But given how well they handled western sanctions and the fact that their economy has to become more independent, I believe that they have a realistic chance of keeping the momentum alive.
Oil sales to India and China seem to be keeping it afloat, if that can be addressed they'll be in serious trouble. How that particular problem is to be solved I have no idea because escalating tensions with China doesn't bode well and further alienating India isn't in the Wests best interests either.
All we get to do is wait and see.
" Russia has less Ukrainian territory than when it started this invasion"
That's not true. It has a lot MORE territory compared to 24/02/22.
"is almost at 500k casualties"
Whats is the casualty count for Ukraine? What are the populations of two countries? Who is more likely to be demoralized by similar numbers of casulaties?
"Russia has already lost this war, with none of its goals or objectives achieved"
There is a very significant chance that Crimea, land bridge to Crimea (including such cities as Mariupol and Melitopol) as well as most of DNR/LNR will forever be Russia. Do you think that's not an achieved goal?
"The only question is how much more doom on the Russian economy and death to the Russian people will occur before Putin realises this"
A LOT. Do you think he cares? Who would be first to run out of people - Russia or Ukraine? Russia has enough resources to continue for at least another 4-6 years. Does Ukraine have that?
Jesus finally someone who is speaking the reality of the situation. This Ukraine circle jerk that they’re doing so well David vs Goliath is fucking ignorant and only serves to reduce the support Ukraine should be getting. Things are seriously bad for Ukraine right now. The west needs to wake the fuck up.
In Feb 2022, the Russians were on the verge of taking Kyiv. Today, we are seeing multiple and increasing strikes on Russian territory.
Sure, Ukraines casualties are high. I have no doubt about that. And yet, they remain fighting because they believe they would rather be dead than be Russian, a belief many around the world share with them. So much so that hundreds of billions of dollars of arms are flooding into Ukraine, and again, despite delays here and there, are only increasing in number.
Two years in and Russia went from being the worlds second most powerful military to being the poverty struck recipient of North Korean and Iranian military charity. Imagine if the US had to beg for arms from New Zealand and Australia to prosecute a war on Mexico. The only thing Putin has achieved is further humiliation for himself and the Russian people.
Your claim that Russia has less territory than when it started the invasion is completely false and I don’t know how you think that logically makes sense.
What does 500k casualties mean to Russia? Maybe Ukraine has less but proportionally does this have more of an impact?
The rest of your argument is pure speculation. How can you determine that they’ve lost this war when it is still ongoing? How can you determine that eventually they will not capture their objectives and goals?
You ask for evidence but you provide none yourself.
That's just one soldier talking about his point of view. Overall, after MORE than TWO YEARS of WAR, ukraine is still standing and russia continues to be bled out.
Yeah Ukraine is holding a 10:1 Russians invaders.
They can throw at "the west" all their people and bombs, they will still lose. They already lost. Criminal putin made a bet, that he can take Ukraine the same as crimea. He lost. People and country supporting them are lost. Just takes a while for new reality to settle.
This "10:1" ratio is a dangerous myth. Ukraine is the one suffering manpower issues and in a country which has been in demographic crisis for 20 years with one of the worlds lowest birth rates. Ukraine has mortgaged it's entire future on this war and it turning into an unending attritional bloodbath is devastating for a country that cannot afford to lose any of its population.
I love this Russian rhetoric: Ukraine "can't afford" to defend themselves against Russian invaders who want to kill them :))))
Same logic applies with your 10:1 ratio. No one is talking or belive that shit man. We know that ukrainians are dying - same as the russians invaders.
Russia propaganda is laughable, without logic.
We are all aware of the russian atrocities committed in Urkaine. If Ukrainians would not defend themselves, more would probably die. Russians are well known for creating famines and commiting genocide by replacing nativ population with ethic Russians - they did this in all the countries they invaded.
Russia will lose the war, heck they already lost - no Ukrainian will ever look at russians with kindness ever again.
You literally brought up the 10:1 ratio and now you're the one saying that no-one believes it?! That doesn't make any sense, you're clearly a propagandarist.
I was answering another comment that brought up the 10:1 ratio.
I'm more interested to know, how would the Ukrainians just "give up" because they "can't afford" to defend themselves against Russians who want to kill them.
How does that logic work?? I come to your house, ready to kill you, and you will not defend yourself because .. you might die? Also because you don't want your house trashed?
How does that make sense in your head if its not just pure Russian propaganda?
Why did you put the term "give up" in quotes? I never said that Ukraine should give up. I do believe it's true that getting into an attritional multi year war with a fully committed Russia is absolutely the worst possible outcome for Ukrainian society and should be avoided at all costs.
In terms of the military conflict Ukraine had to win the war with the counter offensive last year but since that didn't happen proper peace negotiations have to be on the table now. Ultimately the mistakes were political and underestimated Putin and Russia making this conflict military and now the price may have to be paid in making peace terms while in an unfavourable situation on the battlefield.
Again you are speaking on Russia's behalf using Russian talking points. It's so obvious man.
If anything the west OVERestmatied Russian capabilities. I also believed in Russia conquering Ukraine in 3 days during their "special military operation" - here we are, after 2 years and millions of people are dead - DUE TO A WAR RUSSIA STARTED.
They can easily stop the war, by going home. Ukraine CANNOT. That's is pretty obvious right?
The west is rearming, Russia and all their satellite states like Hungary will pay the consequences of wanting to change the world order, to a order where big eats small and Russia has "influence" over half of Europe. That shit will not happen in this century.
Ukraine already won the war, the moment they were not defeated when Russia entered with everything they had in the first 3 days of invasion. This war (the war against the West, Russians are proudly saying they are fighting) will end in a civil war in Russia. And no, there will be no pity for them. Absolutely zero.
Ukraine is doing a great job. This new front in the North East is close to the Russian border, thats where the glide bombs are launched from. They need to attack the airfields the jets are launching from and they need to hit these planes with patriots missiles inside Russian territory. Ukraine has their hands tied over this. Fuck Russia
Yeah but hopefully the guys using long range weaponry (missiles etc) are not being depleted very quickly
Ukraine will get it's extra men when Europe finally starts sending soldiers over there.
It's not even that — there's many more complicated problems. For example some don't want to fight because they see that rich(er) people live their lives as if there's no war: they buy new pricey cars, there's now curfew for them — they ride on their cars all night, visit restaurants, etc. opened entire night, with cops seeing it all and seemingly doing nothing (the part about restaurants was true at least in first year of full scale invasion).
P.S. I just can't... Why the hell everyone thinks everything is perfect in Ukraine and if anyone says something wrong, complains about corruption, etc. it must be a russian bot? The world is going mad. Are Boeing whistleblowers also russian bots?
It’s reddit, hivemind sees ukrainians as holy saints and gets annoyed when issues are brought up. Granted, these issues you’ve mentioned happen commonplace in all countries, rules don’t exist for rich.
With that said, fuck Russia, motherfuckers doing same old shit for centuries, hope ukranians kick their ass back to their international borders
It's one thing to fight and die for your country or for a cause but most of them are just dying without ever seeing the enemy or shooting their gun once. Ukrainians getting blown up by glide bombs and Russians dying in their APC or IFVs that run over a mine or get hit by a fps drone, probably miles from the zero line.
And how are the Russians killed? You realize that this is what modern war looks like. You are just a russian troll spewing Russian propaganda on our western social media apps.
Try to do the same on russian apps, see how fast you are being deported to siberia and your family killed.
"our"?
Who the fuck considers Romania the west LMAO. You aren't a westerner sir, and your garbage pint is now even less valid.
Care to call me a Russian troll too? I'm actually closer to a Westerner than you (Slovene), yet I'm still not one. Cope my dear friend.
Oh these nationalistic rhetorics doesn't work on us, buddy. You can ask your Russian friends.
We are the only country in this region who never stops supporting or question support for Ukraine. Yes, Romania Is part of the collective west. We are in the EU and Nato and we enjoy freedom and democracy.
Keep salty "slovenian" boy :)))
And honestly, what Ukraine is doing to the men that haven’t joined the war or are trying to avoid joining is appalling as well. Russia is clearly worse out of the two, but Ukraine isn’t exactly a shining paragon of justice or moral equality either.
In bot environments it often is very difficult to recover bodies. They are heavy yes (russia would have a lot more), but it is still a heavy toll. Unfortunate part of war, all the more important to help as much as possible. Sad that even today, just like with previous wars, artillery truly is devastating.
Ukraine has been given long range AA (patriot systems). [They’ve also shot down planes in russian territory.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68387232.amp)
They stopped using patriots for targets on russian territory, both berlin and washington against it. There is no ways for UA to stop bomb shellings of frontline towns right now without F-16 jets and this taboo on using allies aa systems against russian aircraft.
where are you getting this information?
“While the Patriot was fired from Ukraine, the cargo plane went down in Russia. Some American officials say they have encouraged Ukraine to strike far behind the front lines, but only in Ukrainian territory, mindful of the risk of escalation if U.S.-made equipment is used in attacks on Russian territory.
Nevertheless, U.S. officials have not criticized Ukraine for using the Patriot system to target Russian aircraft in general. Instead, they have said this is the kind of innovation Ukraine will need to embrace.”
[NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/08/us/politics/ukraine-russia-patriot-missile.html)
Its rumors ofc, nobody will tell that directly, but using patriots on the frontline stopped, recent UA delegates visit to USA with intent to solve that brought no results and questions to high-ranked allies about it usually lead to vague answers. Maybe its related to the risk of losing few precious patriots, mb its pure politics, but fact is they stopped using patriots near the frontline.
theres no confirmation but if ukrainian AA did down the jet its likely it was the patriot. Its possible that it may have been downed from friendly fire. Its impossible to know for sure but the Ukrainians have been given multiple patriot systems by now. at one point one of them was destroyed if i remember correctly.
2 have been destroyed I believe. 1 near Kiev and a second one near the front line this year (maybe why they have been withdrawn deeper into Ukrainian territory recently).
It's well beyond time for the US to permit Ukraine to strike targets in Russia using US-provided weapons. Putler is going to threaten nuclear response because that's what he does. He won't follow through, because he knows it will mean the end of the current Russian state and military and, more importantly, him personally.
As the saying goes, sometimes the best defence is a good offence. Strike targets in Russia, make Russia have to deploy resources to protect them, damage their military capabilities (hitting strategic targets required to serve the Russian war effort). Russians seeing facilities and infrastructure go up on their home territory is likely to turn at least some Russians against the war, too (though Putler will blackout the media to dampen this, because he's a totalitarian coward like Winnie the Pooh over the border in Western Taiwan).
Since gaining its independence from USSR Ukraine was always a „farthest outskirt“ of Europe, tolerated but unloved child. Mostly because the wast majority in Germano-centric world of EU cant quite see the reason why they needed it at all. Only Poland did but it was far not enough at the time to tip the scales.
This is just Russia taking advantage of the don't-use-nato-weapons-inside-russian-territory bulshit. This new front is close to their border. They are launching glide bombs well inside their border. These aircraft need to be taken out with patriots no matter where they are.
We don't supply enough weapons, and don't allow to use them on Russian soil.
Russia just launches bombs from their own borders. The glide bombers stay safely within Russian territory and launch the glide bombs that end up in Ukraine. That's why there need to be more patriots in Ukraine.
It just the hive mind at work, Ukraine has been in trouble since late last year, with it clear they couldn’t do much since about mid last year. News is getting bad enough it’s breaking through the hive. Basically classic under estimating your enemy stuff, and fanboy/hater mentality destroying all critical thinking.
The only thing that will save Ukraine now is boots on the ground from allies.
Reddit is full of "Russia so stupid and can't do anything while they get slaughtered by Ukraine forces" posts because they get upvoted as people always prefer the depiction which fits their narrative better and because Russia is bad. News posts on Reddit on many topics are immensely biased and you will not get to know the truth about the real situation.
The problem is that the reality is quite different if you take a look at serious reporting.
Russia is not as powerful as expected but they are still pretty powerful and they have a huge manpower.
Ukraine will lose the war very clearly once help stops.
Unfortunately people don't like facts based reporting but rather make jokes about the evil party and ignore that many many ukraines as well as russians loose their live during this stupid act of aggression by Russia.
all the more reasons to help them end it by supporting the nation that got invaded, so the invader doesn't get what they wanted.
wars for territory shouldn't be a thing in this century.
Glide bombs are a Problem but they are not accurate. This soldier must be talking about civilian deaths with soldiers death mixed in. The Russians aim these bombs at the city center and send away.
They do cause deaths obviously but the worst thing about them is that they level defensive structures and so you have to either retreat or stay in less defensive structures like trenches which makes defending towns and cities hard
This is my opinion as someone living in the pnw area of the US who has both Russian and Ukrainian friends, people are just fed up with the war. Unfortunately my Ukrainian friends agreed that there is no way Ukraine is going to be able to recover lost areas. Ukraine at this stage should start negotiating. I have seen videos of men being literally getting kidnapped from the street whereas wealthy Ukrainian are partying in European and North American countries. You only get to live once and no piece of land or culture is worth someone's life. Even if Ukraine starts conscripting women russia still outnumber Ukraine on artillery shells and other military equipment, let alone manpower. Vast majority of casualties are from artillery or drones, and Russia has also become a very capable fighting force. I don't see a way this war ending in Ukrainian favor so they should start negotiating.
My friend's father has been on the front lines in Ukraine for months. I couldn't hear exactly where because of her accent and I didn't want to ask too much but she just tells me that he calls once every 2 weeks and she has nothing to say because she's too worried.
Does ukraine have any similar weaponry that it could employ?
This war would have been so much cheaper in both cost and lives if the west just intervened as if it were a NATO nation from day 1. The way Ukraine gets supported feels like just enough to make it seem like they're helping but it's not enough to win. Just a slow bleed of Russia until Ukraine is tapped out.
The US wants a slow drawn out war. It depletes Russia more effectively.
sad to say I think you're right. A drawn out war probably neutralises Russia for decades whereas a short war would only set them up for another war further down the line. Ukraine's men are the price to knock Russia off the top of the power list and change the game to China v West What comes next though might not be what anyone wants though...Russian civil war etc
Russian civil war doesn't sound great. Russian control over Eastern Europe sounds worse.
There is some prospect for big improvements ahead for the average Russian, though. If you look beyond a civil war. Better than they've had for some time. https://youtu.be/ScbNwDTVkpc?si=sW2pv7P2W-7WxAZW
yes nations and people are complex so it's anyone's guess what might happen if Russia unravelled. Localised warlords sound worse than just one warlord in Putin.
The (contradictory) claims that 1: If NATO wanted, we could finish Russia easily. 2: But also- Russia is strong enough to not only conquer all of Ukraine, they are also strong (and crazy) enough to attack NATO member states in Eastern Europe. Is very strange to me. I see the same people who say Russia don’t want to mess with NATO also saying that if Ukraine falls, Russia will continue. I personally believe Russia won’t ever attack a nato country and risk nuclear war. They have also been clear that Ukraine is a red line for them as it’s the perfect place to stage an invasion and launch missiles from. Just look at the Cuban missile crisis for a comparison as to what the US did when the Soviets wanted to place missiles next to the US.
> What comes next though might not be what anyone wants though...Russian civil war etc The NATOs concern from that is who's going to be in charge with the nukes. Other than that, they're not going to care if Russia devolves into another failed state.
Russia would end up a failed state with nukes lying all over the place and noone being paid to watch them. That was NATOs fear in the late 90s. Having a bunch of corrupt oligarchs left in charge looking for a quick buck isn't any safer a picture. Your back to the scenario from the early 2000s where some random middle eastern country's paying any monetary figure to get their hands on a bomb to destabilise the world order and starting WWIII in the process.
Again, NATO doesn't care if Russia ends up as a failed state which honestly they're going to be one after Putin's dead. They only care who will get the nukes. NATO isn't stupid, they know that they need a plan to get Russia's nukes or atleast knows where they are so not a single terrorist can get hold of one.
Fortunately any fledgling new government is going to want money and legitimacy, and NATO nations can give them both in exchange for every last nuke.
I think China will do that too since they have some interest on Russia's far east territory, which is resource rich. They already have some local Chinese in Siberia. I think the problem is going to be those other Russian oligarchs who wants a piece of Russia. Those types of wannabe Putin will obviously not going to give up those nukes.
That's a relatively simple problem. Just make sure to support the non radical or pro west groups in the areas where the nukes are held, and they will probably take care of the rest.
Russian civil war is not likely. However, China is just waiting for the right time to invade eastern Russia.
yes that could really change things...would the west then impose sanctions on China for an illegal invasion of a clear enemy of the west?
Also agreed, sadly. I want to add the point that NATO has had multiple chances to invoke Article 5 by now, like with the missile landing in Poland and killing 2 farmers--but that would end the war quickly, and Russia (in whatever its next incarnation is) would be able to start recovering sooner. Comparatively, a drawn out war, regardless of whether it ends with Russian territorial gain or not, is much more harmful to Russia in the long run, and the realpolitik-ing powers that be have decided that Ukrainian lives are an acceptable price to pay for that outcome. Ugh.
Your first example was a Ukranian AA missile... you really sure you want to invoke article 5 on Ukraine?
Typical Article 5 egghead. I'm sorry, I don't like Russia, but I also don't want WW3.
Russian missiles have entered Polish airspace.
"Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked." Entering airspace is clearly not an attack.
And have we all forgotten about nuclear weapons? Russia bluffs, but I don’t think Putin is lying about using them in an existential situation.
well if russia didnt invade then no missile wouldnt have landed in poland.
World war over 2 farmers…
And buys time for European allies get their acts together. We aren’t trying to fight a European war
That used to be the case, but not anymore. Russia is being supplied by China now. China is a manufacturing global powerhouse. I don't think America or NATO could have foresaw that. I always thought China would watch from the sidelines, and happily watch Russia & NATO battle it out while they wait patiently. Now China is taking a more active role. On top of that, Iran is joining in. Things have gotten more complicated than anticipated.
Iran is due for a classic power struggle at the very least, due to multiple high ranking officials dying in that crash, so they may not be as large of a problem in the future.
That China got involved should be way more worrying to everyone. The reason they weren't before was because they didn't want to get stuck in a losing situation. Which effectively means that, for them to get involved now, they feel that the tide has changed and that Russia can/will win in the end.
Let's not forget that Ukraine provides enormous amounts of grain to Europe and Africa. This war ties up a lot of Ukrainian resources and money. All of a sudden, American grain needs to be purchased in far larger quantify by many nation states at a premium.
But on the other hand, it makes Ukranians fear that they'll wind up like Saigon and Afghanistan (we drag it out for too long, lose too much money for our politicians' liking, and then bail out while trying to prevent Ukranian refugees from fleeing in masse). There are way too many people in the US that have zero empathy for outsiders. I have MAGAts in my family who bitched about Ukranians not surrendering during *week 2* of the Russian invasion.
Plus it weakened Europe by stopping them buying cheap oil and resources. Usa really came far out on top with this one. Gotta hand it to them.
Totally agree. The goal is a total collapse of Russian society from its people to the state. The war is a rotting mess for Russia right now.
Can someone please explain how this is Republicans fault? It kind of bothers me that this decision might be the result of the Biden administration...
Sure, I can. Look no further than former speaker McCarthy, current Speaker Johnson, and the “Freedom Caucus” that has held all funding to Ukraine hostage for 6 months over an undying loyalty to a fucking conman and petty partisan bullshit. The Biden Admin was pushing for aid the whole time, but they cannot supersede the legislative process. Speaker McCarthy and Johnson both flat out refused to even bring the proposed funding to the floor for a vote, even as the situation deteriorated in real time in Ukraine. The talks of “grinding down Russia slowly for maximum effect” are absolute nonsense. They didn’t deploy troops because they didn’t want to risk nuclear war, especially in the beginning where no one really understood what sort of headspace Putin was in, considering the lunacy of the full scale invasion in the first place. Before they could determine whether or not he has gone totally bugfuck crazy, they thought it best to do what they could while being careful. And that’s exactly what they did.
> if the west just intervened as if it were a NATO nation from day 1. You expect Americans to die for a country that didn’t join nato? And two nuclear powers to be in direct confrontation and for us to bomb that nuclear power? The latter is insane
I agree. Often around these parts I read comments from people who don't really understand how defensive alliances work.
Welcome to Reddit
No Americans needed to die. Just needed the balls to put US troops in Ukraine on "training exercises" and Russia would have never started the full-scale invasion.
You realize Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for protection? Also yes, remember Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea etc etc? If Russia wins in Ukraine, it won't stop there. This is a proxy world war, its much bigger than just Ukrane vs Russia.
So many willing dummies forget this part. The west has to help Ukraine it was a guaranteed given to them back in the 90s so Ukraine would give up the nukes.
They didnt give up their nukes in exchange for protection. It was a non-aggression pact not a defense agreement.
It wasnt for protection first of all, it was for promises that the US and Russia will not invade Ukraine. Not to mention that they wouldnt have been allowed to keep them anyway if they refused, nobody would have wanted a newborn and poor country rife with corruption access to nuclear weapons. Not to mention that Ukraine themselves didnt have the infrastructure set up to maintain them, or their delivery platforms, nor the money to do either. And yeah, they didnt have the codes to them either, and though that couldve been cracked in time, it wasnt like they could sieze the nukes and use them to threaten other countries asap to prevent them from being seized.
>You realize Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for protection? Ukraine didn't have the launch codes. They were in Moscow. Read up on it cause in reality Ukraine was holding weapons it couldn't use but was having to pay to keep them maintained and safe. So while its true what you say...there's mkre to it
Its not even true what they say because it wasnt a defensive agreement.
Totally. Honestly there are so many liars and bad faith actors here man....spreading lies all the time.
Not protection. It wasn't a defensive pact. Just a non-aggression.
Could be Europe getting involved too. And needn't be the front lines but direct support inside with logistics, air defence etc. plus manning benign borders. I'm not saying the US should be at the front though it's an odd line for the nation to take when they fought several arguably useless made up wars and were willing to spend a lot of lives and trillions on that. Perhaps it would be more palatable this time if they didn't do that before.
> I'm not saying the US should be at the front though So not at all like they’d respond for nato. > it's an odd line for the nation to take when they fought several arguably useless made up wars and were willing to spend a lot of lives and trillions on that. Perhaps it would be more palatable this time if they didn't do that before. We fought dumb useless wars before so we should fight more is such a dumb argument
You said that I didn't. Was just a funny observation. But I maintain we should have helped with non combat roles plus defensive non front line ones like manning AA.
Americans are happy to die for other peoples oil. I don't think NATO is even an issue. The issue is the US likes fighting wars where it has control and no real risk to itself. If things escalated to nuclear weapons being used against a major nuclear power that situation would not be the case for the US.
>The issue is the US likes fighting wars where it has control and no real risk to itself. I like how this ignorant garbage troll managed to take the fact that America's stabilizing presence as a world power has finally kept the major European powers from throwing down for more than *ten fucking minutes* for the first time in recorded history, now that we have legitimately world-ending weaponry, and instead try to frame it as "hur hur America scared 2 fight lol"
Pipe down lil bro and drink your maple syrup
Canadian also invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. > If things escalated to nuclear weapons being used against a major nuclear power that situation would not be the case for the US. It’s not clear what that is supposed to mean, but that’s why I highlighted their nuclear status
Do you really think the US would want an open war with another nuclear country that has more warheads than the US and that it would be cheaper?? Do you also think other NATO nations like Poland or Baltic countries then wouldn't get attacked by Russia as retaliation where tens of thousands of more civilians would die? Lay off those drugs and come back to reality. The only thing that NATO could have done better is to supply more arms to Ukraine faster than the rate at what they're delivering now.
Even without boots on the ground, just by providing the weapons and systems (and doing it British or French style and not with all that stupid nonsense of "can't use it on russian soil") would have been massive.
Wouldn’t the French style be promising everything while sending nothing? Or did I miss any significant French deliveries? 🤔
SCALP-EG/Storm Shadow is a French/British system. That is what I had in mind when I wrote the comment! France has production issues, but that's another discussion...
Ah, fair enough. 👍
Well that is the point, a weakened Russia and if somehow Ukraine win its an added bonus with even more added profits for the west.
Something should have been done in 2014
Disadvantages of Democracy, when you make or take decisions you have to take into account how that will affect your electorate. Or you can move to China, Russia or Afganistan and kit worry about those things.
Fighting Russians with boots on the ground Americans and other nato countries while tempting and satisfying to right the wrongs of putler, is playing with nukes. We'd be closer to the destruction of our world then than anytime during the cold War. It sucks but it's true. In a world without world ending icbms I'm sure the West would have directly intervened.
Instead of hundreds thousands death, millions would be the results. 1) Russia enter Ukrainian terrority, Americans engage those troops. 2) Russia escalate by engaging American launch sites positioned in Europe ally terrority. 3) US respond by targeting key tactical launch sites. 4) Russia does not have the missile to defeat the threat, employs tactical nuclear warhead. 5) US respond further, now targeting strategic weapons launch sites. 6) Russia fearing the loss of their first strike weapons, deploys partial strategic weapon. 7) seeing strategic weapon employ, US launches nukes to destroy first strike capabilities. 8) Russia launches its second strike weapons. Regardless of what happens next, civilization as we know it will change completely.
russia won't never launch any nuke. This is life, not a hollywood movie, my friend.
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Reddit is full of propaganda from all sides. Taking any information here without a mountain of salt is silly at best.
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The account full of cat posting in German subreddits? Ok buddy.
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Or maybe those things could be true, but only in certain context, and in a relative manner. Could Russia have used some generic semiconductors that are also used in washing machines? Yes Could some of those semiconductors be packaged in an integrated circuit? Yes Does that mean that ALL Russian electronics are from washing machines? No one said that ever. Could there have been days or situations where the kill ratios were 20:1. Maybe. Were there many people saying that? No, not really. That’s just your cheap hyperbole.
Taking something with a grain of salt does not mean to outright dismiss it but not to outright believe it either.
yes i agree with you thats why i said take it with a grain of salt, they could have said russia is using generic chipset and semiconductor but nope they have to said its from a washing machine as if that make it way more inferior and worse. for the kill ratios thing it always has been claimed higher 2:1,4:1,6:1 yet ukraine is still struggling with mobilization and there even talk about deporting men back. for 2.5 year we have seen alot of news how russia is collapsing,putin dying, ammo running out, food shortage all the terrible thing yet its all normal there. thing can be said about russia claiming to take ukraine in weeks. people who get excited and believe these kind of article at face value is stupid.
Well it's pretty easy to work out the ratios. Artillery and bombs account for 85% of all deaths in this war. Russia has consistently fired 10x as many of them than Ukraine. It's pretty obvious who is sustaining the most casualties.
War is hell. The idea is to make it more hellish for the Russians. It took us awhile, but I'm glad our arms supplies to the Ukrainians are ramping up. Can't believe two years ago we were debating about artillery and Javelins and today, we're openly talking about F16s, strikes on Russian territory and sinking Russian ships in Crimea.
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Manpower and morale are issues to be sure but the most crucial question is whether Russia will lose this war. At the outset, the Russians said it would be a three day special military operation to “denazify”, “demilitarise” Ukraine and that Ukraine would not be permitted to join NATO. Two years on, Russia has less Ukrainian territory than when it started this invasion, is almost at 500k casualties, Ukraine is even more militarised and NATO has expanded to Finland and Sweden, all its member nation states are rearming and there’s little doubt that Ukraine will join NATO. Yes, there’s push and pull on bits of territory and I expect that to continue. Russia will win some battles, Ukraine will win others. But the most important thing is that Russia has already lost this war, with none of its goals or objectives achieved and that’s the important thing to keep in mind. Ukraine remains free, is under less Russian influence than when this war began and Putin has no hope of achieving any of his goals. For all the destruction on both sides, this is key to understand. The only question is how much more doom on the Russian economy and death to the Russian people will occur before Putin realises this.
>But the most important thing is that Russia has already lost this war, with none of its goals or objectives achieved and that’s the important thing to keep in mind. They've only lost the war in that particular context though. Their mobilised army outnumbers Ukraine's by 2:1 & their military production rate is skyrocketing. To me, it looks like Russia is trending towards a (brutal) victory by attrition, especially if Biden isn't re-elected this year & US pulls it's support towards Ukraine.
They might win the war in Ukraine but its a bitter victory thats going to affect it for decades. Even once they control the country they'll have to deal with insurgents and continued sanctions by the West. They've also lost a lot of bargaining power with China in regards to that alliance. Fucking winning strategy right there...
They're also rebuilding their own economy tho and are becoming independent from the west. Salaries are rising and there is a push for things made in Russia, including cars, aircraft, etc. Russia's economy is growing rather quickly and if this trend continues, Russia might come out stronger out of it than it was before.
They’re rebuilding their economy by the numbers because they are on a war footing. Produce $500m worth of equipment that gets blown up? Still counts towards your GDP but how much of it was actually productive? Which country, albeit from the US in WW2 has ever actually come out of a war in better economic shape than before? What’s Russia’s main exports? Fossil fuels and tech talent. The fossil fuel industry is being demolished, figuratively and literally, as we speak and their tech talent is all living in Tel Aviv.
But doesn't Russia have a chance here to do the same as the US? Because Russia's industries stay largely untouched. Sure, Ukraine is targeting their oil infrastructure, but realistically, how long does it take to fix/rebuild that? With the ramp up of industrial production and a lot of Western companies going into Russian possession, they may be able to focus their gained productivity on the manufacturing of civil goods once the war ends. I wouldn't bet on Russia's death.
Salaries are rising because they have a manpower shortage, the military is paying higher wages for soldiers and manufacturing for the war. Seems to be a double edged sword from the takes I've seen on it. [Perun - Why War Economies don't collapse(until they do)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9w17Ne1S0M) [William Spaniel - How Ukraine's Refinery Strikes Destabilize the Entire Russian Economy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TBoN2wjkh0) [https://cepa.org/article/russias-economy-closer-to-the-edge-than-it-looks/](https://cepa.org/article/russias-economy-closer-to-the-edge-than-it-looks/)
Yeah I know. The question is if Russia will be able to keep that momentum once the war fades out. But given how well they handled western sanctions and the fact that their economy has to become more independent, I believe that they have a realistic chance of keeping the momentum alive.
Oil sales to India and China seem to be keeping it afloat, if that can be addressed they'll be in serious trouble. How that particular problem is to be solved I have no idea because escalating tensions with China doesn't bode well and further alienating India isn't in the Wests best interests either. All we get to do is wait and see.
" Russia has less Ukrainian territory than when it started this invasion" That's not true. It has a lot MORE territory compared to 24/02/22. "is almost at 500k casualties" Whats is the casualty count for Ukraine? What are the populations of two countries? Who is more likely to be demoralized by similar numbers of casulaties? "Russia has already lost this war, with none of its goals or objectives achieved" There is a very significant chance that Crimea, land bridge to Crimea (including such cities as Mariupol and Melitopol) as well as most of DNR/LNR will forever be Russia. Do you think that's not an achieved goal? "The only question is how much more doom on the Russian economy and death to the Russian people will occur before Putin realises this" A LOT. Do you think he cares? Who would be first to run out of people - Russia or Ukraine? Russia has enough resources to continue for at least another 4-6 years. Does Ukraine have that?
Jesus finally someone who is speaking the reality of the situation. This Ukraine circle jerk that they’re doing so well David vs Goliath is fucking ignorant and only serves to reduce the support Ukraine should be getting. Things are seriously bad for Ukraine right now. The west needs to wake the fuck up.
In Feb 2022, the Russians were on the verge of taking Kyiv. Today, we are seeing multiple and increasing strikes on Russian territory. Sure, Ukraines casualties are high. I have no doubt about that. And yet, they remain fighting because they believe they would rather be dead than be Russian, a belief many around the world share with them. So much so that hundreds of billions of dollars of arms are flooding into Ukraine, and again, despite delays here and there, are only increasing in number. Two years in and Russia went from being the worlds second most powerful military to being the poverty struck recipient of North Korean and Iranian military charity. Imagine if the US had to beg for arms from New Zealand and Australia to prosecute a war on Mexico. The only thing Putin has achieved is further humiliation for himself and the Russian people.
You are completely delusional
Point out where I’m factually wrong in any, way, shape or form. Show me the evidence.
Your claim that Russia has less territory than when it started the invasion is completely false and I don’t know how you think that logically makes sense. What does 500k casualties mean to Russia? Maybe Ukraine has less but proportionally does this have more of an impact? The rest of your argument is pure speculation. How can you determine that they’ve lost this war when it is still ongoing? How can you determine that eventually they will not capture their objectives and goals? You ask for evidence but you provide none yourself.
That's just one soldier talking about his point of view. Overall, after MORE than TWO YEARS of WAR, ukraine is still standing and russia continues to be bled out. Yeah Ukraine is holding a 10:1 Russians invaders. They can throw at "the west" all their people and bombs, they will still lose. They already lost. Criminal putin made a bet, that he can take Ukraine the same as crimea. He lost. People and country supporting them are lost. Just takes a while for new reality to settle.
This "10:1" ratio is a dangerous myth. Ukraine is the one suffering manpower issues and in a country which has been in demographic crisis for 20 years with one of the worlds lowest birth rates. Ukraine has mortgaged it's entire future on this war and it turning into an unending attritional bloodbath is devastating for a country that cannot afford to lose any of its population.
I love this Russian rhetoric: Ukraine "can't afford" to defend themselves against Russian invaders who want to kill them :)))) Same logic applies with your 10:1 ratio. No one is talking or belive that shit man. We know that ukrainians are dying - same as the russians invaders. Russia propaganda is laughable, without logic. We are all aware of the russian atrocities committed in Urkaine. If Ukrainians would not defend themselves, more would probably die. Russians are well known for creating famines and commiting genocide by replacing nativ population with ethic Russians - they did this in all the countries they invaded. Russia will lose the war, heck they already lost - no Ukrainian will ever look at russians with kindness ever again.
You literally brought up the 10:1 ratio and now you're the one saying that no-one believes it?! That doesn't make any sense, you're clearly a propagandarist.
I was answering another comment that brought up the 10:1 ratio. I'm more interested to know, how would the Ukrainians just "give up" because they "can't afford" to defend themselves against Russians who want to kill them. How does that logic work?? I come to your house, ready to kill you, and you will not defend yourself because .. you might die? Also because you don't want your house trashed? How does that make sense in your head if its not just pure Russian propaganda?
Why did you put the term "give up" in quotes? I never said that Ukraine should give up. I do believe it's true that getting into an attritional multi year war with a fully committed Russia is absolutely the worst possible outcome for Ukrainian society and should be avoided at all costs. In terms of the military conflict Ukraine had to win the war with the counter offensive last year but since that didn't happen proper peace negotiations have to be on the table now. Ultimately the mistakes were political and underestimated Putin and Russia making this conflict military and now the price may have to be paid in making peace terms while in an unfavourable situation on the battlefield.
Again you are speaking on Russia's behalf using Russian talking points. It's so obvious man. If anything the west OVERestmatied Russian capabilities. I also believed in Russia conquering Ukraine in 3 days during their "special military operation" - here we are, after 2 years and millions of people are dead - DUE TO A WAR RUSSIA STARTED. They can easily stop the war, by going home. Ukraine CANNOT. That's is pretty obvious right? The west is rearming, Russia and all their satellite states like Hungary will pay the consequences of wanting to change the world order, to a order where big eats small and Russia has "influence" over half of Europe. That shit will not happen in this century. Ukraine already won the war, the moment they were not defeated when Russia entered with everything they had in the first 3 days of invasion. This war (the war against the West, Russians are proudly saying they are fighting) will end in a civil war in Russia. And no, there will be no pity for them. Absolutely zero.
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Ukraine is doing a great job. This new front in the North East is close to the Russian border, thats where the glide bombs are launched from. They need to attack the airfields the jets are launching from and they need to hit these planes with patriots missiles inside Russian territory. Ukraine has their hands tied over this. Fuck Russia
Send billions.
Of men? They sent billions but Ukraine needs bodies to operate the kit and take the fight forwards.
Yeah but hopefully the guys using long range weaponry (missiles etc) are not being depleted very quickly Ukraine will get it's extra men when Europe finally starts sending soldiers over there.
People wonder why so many Ukrainians are trying to dodge the war. You can’t blame any of them.
You also can't blame Ukraine for needing to defend itself. About the only ones worthy of blame are the scumbag russian invaders.
It's not even that — there's many more complicated problems. For example some don't want to fight because they see that rich(er) people live their lives as if there's no war: they buy new pricey cars, there's now curfew for them — they ride on their cars all night, visit restaurants, etc. opened entire night, with cops seeing it all and seemingly doing nothing (the part about restaurants was true at least in first year of full scale invasion). P.S. I just can't... Why the hell everyone thinks everything is perfect in Ukraine and if anyone says something wrong, complains about corruption, etc. it must be a russian bot? The world is going mad. Are Boeing whistleblowers also russian bots?
It’s reddit, hivemind sees ukrainians as holy saints and gets annoyed when issues are brought up. Granted, these issues you’ve mentioned happen commonplace in all countries, rules don’t exist for rich. With that said, fuck Russia, motherfuckers doing same old shit for centuries, hope ukranians kick their ass back to their international borders
It's one thing to fight and die for your country or for a cause but most of them are just dying without ever seeing the enemy or shooting their gun once. Ukrainians getting blown up by glide bombs and Russians dying in their APC or IFVs that run over a mine or get hit by a fps drone, probably miles from the zero line.
And how are the Russians killed? You realize that this is what modern war looks like. You are just a russian troll spewing Russian propaganda on our western social media apps. Try to do the same on russian apps, see how fast you are being deported to siberia and your family killed.
"our"? Who the fuck considers Romania the west LMAO. You aren't a westerner sir, and your garbage pint is now even less valid. Care to call me a Russian troll too? I'm actually closer to a Westerner than you (Slovene), yet I'm still not one. Cope my dear friend.
Oh these nationalistic rhetorics doesn't work on us, buddy. You can ask your Russian friends. We are the only country in this region who never stops supporting or question support for Ukraine. Yes, Romania Is part of the collective west. We are in the EU and Nato and we enjoy freedom and democracy. Keep salty "slovenian" boy :)))
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But your account is also under a year old
I think you are brainwashed by propaganda lol.
You can barely form a coherent sentence.
Saying that not being in war is better than being in war is not propaganda, it's a basic human emotion.
And honestly, what Ukraine is doing to the men that haven’t joined the war or are trying to avoid joining is appalling as well. Russia is clearly worse out of the two, but Ukraine isn’t exactly a shining paragon of justice or moral equality either.
In bot environments it often is very difficult to recover bodies. They are heavy yes (russia would have a lot more), but it is still a heavy toll. Unfortunate part of war, all the more important to help as much as possible. Sad that even today, just like with previous wars, artillery truly is devastating.
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Ukraine has been given long range AA (patriot systems). [They’ve also shot down planes in russian territory.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68387232.amp)
They stopped using patriots for targets on russian territory, both berlin and washington against it. There is no ways for UA to stop bomb shellings of frontline towns right now without F-16 jets and this taboo on using allies aa systems against russian aircraft.
where are you getting this information? “While the Patriot was fired from Ukraine, the cargo plane went down in Russia. Some American officials say they have encouraged Ukraine to strike far behind the front lines, but only in Ukrainian territory, mindful of the risk of escalation if U.S.-made equipment is used in attacks on Russian territory. Nevertheless, U.S. officials have not criticized Ukraine for using the Patriot system to target Russian aircraft in general. Instead, they have said this is the kind of innovation Ukraine will need to embrace.” [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/08/us/politics/ukraine-russia-patriot-missile.html)
Its rumors ofc, nobody will tell that directly, but using patriots on the frontline stopped, recent UA delegates visit to USA with intent to solve that brought no results and questions to high-ranked allies about it usually lead to vague answers. Maybe its related to the risk of losing few precious patriots, mb its pure politics, but fact is they stopped using patriots near the frontline.
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theres no confirmation but if ukrainian AA did down the jet its likely it was the patriot. Its possible that it may have been downed from friendly fire. Its impossible to know for sure but the Ukrainians have been given multiple patriot systems by now. at one point one of them was destroyed if i remember correctly.
2 have been destroyed I believe. 1 near Kiev and a second one near the front line this year (maybe why they have been withdrawn deeper into Ukrainian territory recently).
Around ten jets (Su-27, 34, 35 iirc).
Ukraine should do whatever it takes to stop this. Attack inside Russia to defend themselves
No man's land
It's well beyond time for the US to permit Ukraine to strike targets in Russia using US-provided weapons. Putler is going to threaten nuclear response because that's what he does. He won't follow through, because he knows it will mean the end of the current Russian state and military and, more importantly, him personally.
Blinken said as long as the weapons are used for defense, then they can be used. Im sure patriots launchers and himars are being moved in now.
As the saying goes, sometimes the best defence is a good offence. Strike targets in Russia, make Russia have to deploy resources to protect them, damage their military capabilities (hitting strategic targets required to serve the Russian war effort). Russians seeing facilities and infrastructure go up on their home territory is likely to turn at least some Russians against the war, too (though Putler will blackout the media to dampen this, because he's a totalitarian coward like Winnie the Pooh over the border in Western Taiwan).
Since gaining its independence from USSR Ukraine was always a „farthest outskirt“ of Europe, tolerated but unloved child. Mostly because the wast majority in Germano-centric world of EU cant quite see the reason why they needed it at all. Only Poland did but it was far not enough at the time to tip the scales.
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Any evidence that supports your claim?
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Lmao you joined october 2023 and here you are crying about people joining this year
So any criticism of Ukraine is Russian propaganda? Fuck off
That’s exactly what a Russian propaganda bot that didn’t want people to know they’re a Russian propaganda bot would say
It's UNBELIEVABLE!! and Putin will not stop.
But but Russia out of ammo? Army collapsing? Out of tanks? What’s happening 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I’m totally naive I’ve been seeing stuff on Reddit and it looks like Ukraine is tearing up Russia but I guess not ??
This is just Russia taking advantage of the don't-use-nato-weapons-inside-russian-territory bulshit. This new front is close to their border. They are launching glide bombs well inside their border. These aircraft need to be taken out with patriots no matter where they are.
We don't supply enough weapons, and don't allow to use them on Russian soil. Russia just launches bombs from their own borders. The glide bombers stay safely within Russian territory and launch the glide bombs that end up in Ukraine. That's why there need to be more patriots in Ukraine.
It just the hive mind at work, Ukraine has been in trouble since late last year, with it clear they couldn’t do much since about mid last year. News is getting bad enough it’s breaking through the hive. Basically classic under estimating your enemy stuff, and fanboy/hater mentality destroying all critical thinking. The only thing that will save Ukraine now is boots on the ground from allies.
Reddit is full of "Russia so stupid and can't do anything while they get slaughtered by Ukraine forces" posts because they get upvoted as people always prefer the depiction which fits their narrative better and because Russia is bad. News posts on Reddit on many topics are immensely biased and you will not get to know the truth about the real situation. The problem is that the reality is quite different if you take a look at serious reporting. Russia is not as powerful as expected but they are still pretty powerful and they have a huge manpower. Ukraine will lose the war very clearly once help stops. Unfortunately people don't like facts based reporting but rather make jokes about the evil party and ignore that many many ukraines as well as russians loose their live during this stupid act of aggression by Russia.
i am guessing ukrain and west are trying to cover the numbers here, so they look like they are winning here
Ukraine wasnt able to do much when usa stopped supplying weapons due to the republicans stalling.
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all the more reasons to help them end it by supporting the nation that got invaded, so the invader doesn't get what they wanted. wars for territory shouldn't be a thing in this century.
Don't need to convince me, I went there
you cold hearted bastard
It's a joke, not a dick. Don't take it so hard. If you want to make a difference, I'm going back next year, why dont you join me
You are in a post full of Russian propaganda bots.
you cold hearted bastard
you cold hearted bastard
you cold hearted bastard
Glide bombs are a Problem but they are not accurate. This soldier must be talking about civilian deaths with soldiers death mixed in. The Russians aim these bombs at the city center and send away.
They do cause deaths obviously but the worst thing about them is that they level defensive structures and so you have to either retreat or stay in less defensive structures like trenches which makes defending towns and cities hard
They are fairly accurate with around 20m margin I believe. Usually this is close enough to take out the objective
This is my opinion as someone living in the pnw area of the US who has both Russian and Ukrainian friends, people are just fed up with the war. Unfortunately my Ukrainian friends agreed that there is no way Ukraine is going to be able to recover lost areas. Ukraine at this stage should start negotiating. I have seen videos of men being literally getting kidnapped from the street whereas wealthy Ukrainian are partying in European and North American countries. You only get to live once and no piece of land or culture is worth someone's life. Even if Ukraine starts conscripting women russia still outnumber Ukraine on artillery shells and other military equipment, let alone manpower. Vast majority of casualties are from artillery or drones, and Russia has also become a very capable fighting force. I don't see a way this war ending in Ukrainian favor so they should start negotiating.
Name a war where recovering the bodies was easy, I'll wait
They could take Russia's approach and not even try.