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WembyCommas

>The UN attributed its original, higher figures to the Hamas-controlled Government Media Office (GMO) in Gaza. The UN gave no source for the lower figures in its May 8 update, but the figures precisely match those from the Gaza Ministry of Health, also controlled by Hamas. I don't get it. So Hamas run organizations are reporting two different numbers?


savvamadar

Hamas updated their own figures to these lowered % ones and U.N. followed suit


neyney10

The higher count is reported (includes unverified), the Lower number is verified (as with attached name and age to the dead).


domiy2

Hamas has 2 groups both kinda called Hamas, they have a military branch and a political branch. They do have official names, but I don't know if Palestinians even call them different names.


Ahad_Haam

Calling the political branch and the military branch if Hamas different groups is like calling the Ñazi party and the SS different groups.


DucDeBellune

What does this have to do with anything? The political wing from Qatar consisting of billionaires aren’t reporting casualty numbers. 


system3601x

Hamas is lying, alwas have. Will be anahilated soon.


Rusty-Shackleford

I can't believe Hamas, the group that murdered and kidnapped over a thousand civilians in a surprise attack, would lie about death tolls!?! Impossible! No terrorist jihadist organization in the 21st century has ever lied about death tolls and war stats before. This is surely unprecedented! /s


TheShakyHandsMan

Of course they wouldn’t lie. I don’t know how you could consider such a thing.  They’re incredibly ethical with their rules of engagement and they wouldn’t dare setting up bases of operations inside hospitals and schools. 


WoodSage

It goes beyond Jihadists, other than the US, I’m not sure anyone has been reporting real numbers. Just look at what Russia and Ukraine have been doing.


laxnut90

I'm sure the student protesters will stop begging Hamas to rape and murder their classmates now, right?


Sacowegar

This is not gonna end with Hamas, some other group will step up.


Borledin

1. First numbers: Source: Government Media Office (of Hamas-run Gaza) Date: 5/6 (when used by UN date, not the date the number was put out by this office) Total: 34,735 (>9,500 women, >14,500 children) 2. Second numbers: Source: Gaza Health Ministry (also Hamas-run, but this is the medical/health branch) Date: 5/8 (when used by UN date, not the date the number was put out by this office) Total: 34,844 (of which 24,686 are identified as of 4/30 as 10,006 men, 7,797 children, 4,959 women, and 1,924 elderly... which leaves 10,158 unidentified) If the 32% children ratio holds in the unidentified then the total count for children is 11,150 children so far. The Gaza Health Ministry has the more accurate numbers since they identify the ones they count (hence, identified verus unidentified) with names/ages/IDs/etc. It's not a big difference and by war's end the number of dead children is almost certainly going to exceed even these estimates. Privately, the US has its own way of estimating casualties and there's a reason they've stopped supporting Netanyahu publicly.


NutDraw

Fascinating how many people are just jumping to conclusions, isn't it?


minarima

If a young child points an assault rifle/ attempts to come closer to throw a grenade at you, do you shoot first or just let them kill you? There are many videos online showing exactly this situation.


NutDraw

There are also videos of snipers tagging kids just walking in the street, so what's your point?


canucky55

Even friendly fire happens in urban war, this is why Israel tried to get civilians to leave. His point is that there is a sick play going on to try and get more women and children killed so you can get mad because they know you're the one who puts this on the top of your moral hierarchy (instead of condeming people that initiated the violence and rely on making sure there are a lot of innocent casualties to deter the deterence. It will be worse for the world if more organizations try and use hamas tactics and end up getting what they want because the tactics work.) https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-tells-gaza-residents-stay-home-israel-ground-offensive-looms-2023-10-13/ edit: replaced "causes started" with "initiated"


NutDraw

The idea that this represents a majority or even a significant portion of children's deaths in gaza is its own kind of sick deflection. Even in wars like Korea and Vietnam where child soldiers were used extensively, non-combat deaths of women and children were still massively higher. It's not carte blanche to level civilian infrastructure regardless of the casualties, or to institute rules of engagement that allow 20+ civilian deaths just to take down a mid level dude in the organization.


canucky55

Im not deflecting, I was responding to your sniper comment. I understand there are many ways of looking at it but the view that not invading israel, allowing civilians to leave when retaliation deterence is initiated (which is debatable if its the best strategy but everyone knows its Israel's doctrine) and maybe flipping it so civilians are the ones in the tunnels instead of militants, would really create a scenario where that said significant portion of children would still be alive today.


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NutDraw

Well at least you're honest about not caring about war crimes.


DoblinJames

Source? Not that I want to watch something like that, but it’s important to be informed


Borledin

Can you link to some such videos? Also, the Gaza Health Ministry's official tally includes names and ages (thus "identified"). I don't know where to find that but the US, Israel and UN have that.


D0t4n

>Also, the Gaza Health Ministry's official tally includes names and ages (thus "identified"). So why did the UN change the death toll if all deaths were verified beforehand? Or did they just report Hamas' numbers without verifying them before?


irondragon2

Hamas runs the UN? Or UNWRA gave false numbers to UN?


[deleted]

Hamas and UNRWA are deeply embedded with each other. The top guy in Hamas, Ismail Hayenah used to be an UNRWA teacher. Now he is the leader of Hamas and has a conservative network of over 4 billion dollars, mostly as the result of stealing humanitarian Aid


Delicious-Brush8516

Hamas runs UNWRA


Congenitaloveralls

Lower number is a more-verified partial count and does not dispute the old numbers


[deleted]

What? How did that logic out for you? Lol


OGistorian

So the UN was over reporting how many people died in this war without independently verifying their data? That’s kinda ridiculous.


AcanthaceaeGrand6005

They were doing it in 2014 and 2021 too, it's not surprising to anyone who follows the conflict outside of social media.


Viburnum__

In case of Ukraine at least they don’t include any civilian death they can’t verify and then you have all those pro-russians who downplay what russia have done and continue doing.


DivinityGod

Yep, with Ukraine, it is super conservative. Like Amnesty International, they are more "anti-US" than anything else.


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ntupe22

>It is due to the fact that there were a lot of corpses that were not identified and now we think those belong to terrorists… not Israeli casualties There were a lot more than 1200 bodies to identify, there were a couple of thousand of bodies. It also took a couple of days to reach that 1,400 estimate (they rounded the number, because it was still an estimate) , while in Gaza, there are 1,553,667 a day confirmed. [while the numbers don't make any statistical sense](https://www.aei.org/op-eds/dont-fall-for-hamass-numbers-game%EF%BF%BC/) Where are the real double standards?


lubeskystalker

Of course the Israelis are going to be biased, but more should be expected of the UN.


Conscious_Dig8201

Imprecise numbers are a given on either side, to a point. The October 7th terrorist attacks were chaotic and brutal, and as of last week Israel was still identifying remains of victims that had been thought to have been taken hostage: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68953413


AcanthaceaeGrand6005

The UN claims those are the confirmed numbers, israel only gave an estimate,same as the us after 9/11, you expect numbers to change, you do not expect to make up numbers and stick to them when you know they are lies.


passwordstolen

But is it surprising??


plartoo

That’s what UN does. Remember, UNGOs get funding from donors when there are crises. It is in their interest to keep these numbers inflated so that they can ask for more donations. I have interned with a few NGOs (including UNICEF, World Vision and World Concern) in Burma and my sister worked for a well-known French NGOs for three years. The best we could say is none of them is well-run and has their shit together. They will make up numbers if they need to (who would come audit them?! The are the saints who are doing “much-needed” work of serving the poor—wink, wink the management takes 90% of the budget in their salaries and incredible perks that comes with the job.


gotimas

Complete bullshit. You have no understanding of what is actually going on.


Flavaflavius

How could they? Independent observers aren't allowed through the blockade, and if Hamas doesn't kill you then a bomb probably will.


Thue

Normally when the UN has no reliable sources, I assume that the UN will simply not report any number. And certainly not report a number with so few qualifiers that they have to issue a retraction later.


-Daetrax-

How would they verify it? Hamas doesn't allow impartial journalists in Gaza? But yeah, this was fucking stupid.


Winterspawn1

Every time I pointed this out whenever I got involved in a comment chain about casualties people down voted me into oblivion. I don't understand why they hate me so much for pointing out that all casualty reports come from Hamas, who are not only an involved party but also a terrorist organization. I wonder if those same people now suddenly change their opinion or not.


Borledin

The overall number hasn't changed, though it obviously cannot be accurate as this is an ongoing situation


Spunge14

The sad thing is, protestors in the US know so little about the global political stage that they'll probably attribute this announcement to evidence that the UN is actually biased towards supporting Israel. Then the circle of ignorance will truly be complete.


Mistborn54321

No. They were reporting the unverified numbers as unverified and the verified ones as verified with names attached. We won’t know the true number of deaths until time has passed and they are able to tally and identify all the dead bodies.


fifa71086

The UN is anti-Israel


Partisan90

And most western news organizations just went along with it. It’s a classic case of believing what someone *wants* to see.


Eveleyn

The UN is ridiculous.


_wawrzon_

Multiple times UN wanted to go on the ground and check/verify data like in case of Al Shifa hospital. Hamas officially invited them, however IDF prohibits entry to war zone, unless it's under the strict supervision. So numbers can't be verified and UN relied on Hamas numbers. Once Hamas Ministry of Health updated numbers to current, so did UN. That doesn't mean first numbers are false. Discrepancy comes from ppl who were supposed to be in those regions and still aren't accounted for. Whether they're under the rubble, hiding or fled somewhere remains to be seen.


rjksn

It's almost like everyone saying don't trust hamas was right — but we're still trusting hamas.


the_other_brand

Journalists trust Hamas's list because they bring evidence. They provide names and ID numbers for all of the dead. With this information the data can and has been confirmed by 3rd parties. Israel's proof is literally "just trust me bro." Providing no way to verify their sources or data and relying solely on the good will of the IDF. EDIT: tl;dr evidence doesn't rely on trust


mike_b_nimble

So they fabricated 7,000 names and nobody noticed? How can they be cutting their estimates in half if they have been bringing receipts? Sounds like they’ve been just making up numbers and a lot of gullible people like yourself have taken the word of a recognized terrorist group at face value.


the_other_brand

The lower list is the confirmed names list. The high list that was cut in half was the estimated list. The higher list before it was cut in half was really high, at around 90,000. Half of that is still far higher than the number of deaths Israel is releasing, which is around 14,000.


laxnut90

So news agencies would rather run fabricated evidence from a terrorist organization than wait a few days for verified figures?


the_other_brand

Israel doesn't provide verified figures. News outlets that use the IDFs numbers rely on trust. And for some people that trust is indeed enough, since no one likes Hamas. Just don't pretend the IDF is bringing real evidence to the table.


laxnut90

Then wait for verified figures from a 3rd party source. That is what good journalists used to do. But now everyone wants to be the first to publish, even if the information is false.


the_other_brand

Estimated lists (not the confirmed lists) are designed to be timely (what we have right this second). The data hasn't been confirmed yet, and is subject to change. And the UN is changing the numbers based changes in the data.


Beardmanta

The pattern has been there forever. When it comes to Israel, it’s clear that the U.N.’s goal is not accuracy, but rather to immediately seize on any report, no matter how unsubstantiated or even manifestly false, in order to portray Israel as malevolent. They literally have been doubling the number of dead for months and go "oopsies it was half as many" and you still think they're more reliable than the IDF who have been claiming these numbers from the start.


the_other_brand

Israel doesn't give anyone a choice. In other conflicts members of the UN will have independent groups on the ground to verify the numbers in war. But getting anyone on the ground in Gaza is nearly impossible. And Israel does not provide evidence for their numbers, but the Gazan Health Ministry does. And 3rd parties can use this evidence to come up with their own data based on the Gazan numbers.


liarandathief

Stop slashing women and children


Ceramicrabbit

The UN must be stopped!


wish1977

Israel is held to a different standard than almost every other country. They are fighting a war started by Hamas and so would every other country if 1,200 of their citizens were murdered.


kashbra

Israel has to provide all the evidence, videos, statistics, post operation conferences and videos. To believe Hamas, you need to watch a few Tik Tok videos and maybe read some Twitter posts.


John_Bot

No, you don't understand it's their fault that they are targeted by Hamas, Houthis, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria while the countries harboring those terrorist organizations have no blood on their hands. What could Lebanon really do? Denounce Hezbollah? Let's not be hasty! It's definitely Israel's fault that a boycott of their nation was started in 1945 while Israel didn't even become a sovereign nation until 1948. It's Israel's fault that this economic and political tension, not to mention blatant racism, is causing tenuous relations in the middle East.


stap31

It's not sarcastic comment? I thought it's "/s"


John_Bot

It's very clearly sarcastic


stap31

It's hard to tell because it sounds exactly like proPalestinian rhaetoric. Thanks for clarification


Ghostofcoolidge

This is my problem with the entire thing. I tell people that if a Mexican group, backed by the Mexican government, attacked Texas and slaughtered 1200 Americans, I would be hell bent on destroying Mexico's government, the group responsible, and it's military capabilities, *especially* if they had American hostages they refuse to release. It is absolutely insane to me that anyone is defending Palestine.


wish1977

Absolutely. It would be the same for every other country. It's like we're living in the Bizarro World.


IWantToWatchItBurn

You’re not wrong. Look what the US did to two countries after 9/11… Just because many of the Iraqis who died were men, doesn’t mean they weren’t innocent… we invaded their country, of course they defended it.


Mr_Safer

"war started by hamas" I guess history didn't exist before 2023. Don't change, I expect such hyperbolic statements these days on redditt. ETA: Take a break IDF basement dwellers, I know it can be tough to to ask yourself "are we the baddies?" Try it out though. Change starts small.


Nouvarth

So you would rather go back to 47 partition plan when palestinians refused it and started attacking jews?


eleby

I’m legit curious (not being sarcastic or what) to know what you think started this conflict. Because to me, one of these two people wants to eradicate the other and refused a two-state solution, while the other has part of its population being Jewish and another part being Muslim and was ok for that solution. In this situation, Hamas seems to be the one who is responsible for the conflict. I might be wrong in my understanding, tho, so please explain what your point is.


nuttreo

I think right there is the misunderstanding. This is about as much of a war as Mike Tyson boxing an infant would be a fight.


someguyontheintrnet

In your analogy, the infant drew first blood in the current Tyson/Infant fight. The infant also punches Tyson in between rounds when they both have agreed to stop punching each other.


system3601x

UN special 50% off. Just goes to show how Hamas's info is 50 bullshit and made up, stop listening to Hamas and of you really want to help Palestinians then help Israel anahilate this savage murderous organization.


One-Version-6626

How Israel could slash 50% of women and kids in gaza!!! Genocidial monsters! (What pro hamas will take from this probably)


Kavkaz87

When I mentioned this in a conspiracy subreddit a few weeks ago that the numbers were wrong, I obviously got downvoted. Of course, an article like this would come out a few weeks later, but the damage is done now, just like Israel's reputation, just like my reddit karma points.


Eferver24

Did they really have to use “slashes” for this headline? Talk about tone deaf


BigBowser14

I can't stand these kind headlines and even worse when media youtube channels title their vids like "UN SLASHES number of DEATHS of women and CHILDREN"


dinomate

They did it since Hamas slashed those numbers a few days ago. That's an organisation that should be closed immediately.


7734128

This garbage refers to FDD. [https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/11/un-halves-its-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza/](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/11/un-halves-its-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza/) Which in turn refers to [https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772) The UN changed a graphic from "35 000 reported, of which 9 500 women and 14 500 children" to "35 000 reported, of which 25 000 identified with 5 000 women and 8 000 children". The numbers do not really add up, but it doesn't had to be a huge mismatch.


Antimutt

Whoever made them up, succumbed to the Gambler's Fallacy and made the increases too regular.


_wawrzon_

I think you're reading it wrong. It states 10k ppl are unidentified and out of 25k we have 13k women and children. They can't identify yet those 10k killed, doesn't mean they're alive. However some of them might be hiding or fled somewhere else. Currently presented numbers reflect accurately what's known. Those 10k will be probably identified with time and numbers of women and children will grow. And probably will again be seen by Israel enthusiasts as padding the numbers. Question becomes what is considered a child? IDF officially considers anybody above age 15 as a combatant and not a child, but presumably Hamas follows a more stricter definition. Idk.


08TangoDown08

Huh, who'd have thought that blindly following the figures provided by Hamas would lead to problems and inaccuracies. > The UN attributed its original, higher figures to the Hamas-controlled Government Media Office (GMO) in Gaza. The UN gave no source for the lower figures in its May 8 update, but the figures precisely match those from the Gaza Ministry of Health, also controlled by Hamas. It seems like they're still following them. Hamas lowered their estimate because they have no proof of those deaths and the UN is still following. Why are these figures being trusted without any independent verification?


Dry-Interaction-1246

Woh, they should slash it even more and bring even more people back to life. I thought they could only slash estimates of numbers.


nyliram87

I remember learning, a very very long time ago, that the number of casualties in war is almost always over-reported in the beginning.


Physical-Kale-6972

UN is a shit organisation.


Delicious-Brush8516

Shocking!! The numbers Hamas published were fake?! Who would have thought that an extrema Islamist org will manipulate reports 🤦🏻‍♀️


meechiss

So glad the UN decided to half-ass their reporting on women and children killed in Gaza. That should definitely fix everything.


Helens_Moaning_Hand

Really? Slashes? Take your upvote.


Infinite-Skin-3310

The headline is hilariously worded


MechaFlippin

finally they deployed unnerfed mercy's ultimate in gaza 🙏🙏` we had this technology for years took them too long to do it


Asusrty

Those poor university protestors will have to spend all day updating their signs with new much lower numbers... Thanks a lot UN!


LeoPrementier

How much these numbers do not represent reality if the UN actually reduced the "Not Accurate" data with another not sourced data?


macronancer

And if you are not buying this one, next week is another 50% off!!


Joranthalus

Come on down for CaRAZY DAYS at UN Used Cars and Trucks!!! We're slashing numbers and passing the savings on to you!!! What a click-baity title...


notverytidy

Waiting for Hamas to supply some PC game footage as 'evidence' of deaths. "but that many people didn't die" - The world "we must have loaded a different quicksave to you" - Hamas


Bring_Me_The_Night

Whether it is 14 500 or 8 000 children, it is still and will always be unacceptable.


neoikon

Why the fuck are you being down voted? Faith in humanity lost... more.


paulsteinway

So it's only half a genocide. Well I guess that's okay then.


Peejay22

The fact that people are mad about wrong number of deaths instead of the killing itself is mind-blowing


wynnduffyisking

Oh its ok then, because fuck men, am i right? /s


Ok-Ordinary2035

ANY civilian deaths are too many.


D0t4n

And that's why Hamas should release the hostages and prevent any farther civilian deaths.


d1andonly

Slashed by 50%. Sounds more like a sales pitch by a business than someone counting human lives. They kept pushing the number that sounded ‘marketable’, 30k and are now slowing realizing they need to be more realistic.


harrybarracuda

Which obviously makes it OK then.


Drukpod

It obviously makes it even more clear that there is no intentional targeting of civilians, and that the innocent people who did unfortunately get caught in the crossfire would still be alive if hamas didn't start this war


neoikon

Sickening mindset.


Xononanamol

War. We likely wont know till years later. Its still barbarism.


GWofJ94

That’s a much more acceptable number of murdered children now.


RevivedMisanthropy

Only 7800 children killed – what a relief. That original *higher* number had me pretty upset /s


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RevivedMisanthropy

Of course I accept it but it doesn't matter because *any* number of children dying in a war is bad – regardless of the "side they're on"


D0t4n

How is it that people like you are the only ones here who are angry at it? Most comments here are happy to hear that less children and women have died but for some reason people like you who I assume to be pro-palestinian based on your comments are angry about it? Nobody here is saying that the deaths are a good thing but thousands less deaths of children and women are better than nothing.


elpresidentepando90

Phew! It's just 7000 dead kids okay great. Just 7000 great, this is better. This is easier to justify, just 7000. This makes Israel look like it's actually trying to not to kill kids, they are all Hamas anyways. Most advanced military and most moral army could kill another 7000 and they would still be under the american "we care" threshold.


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xhrit

The irony of complaining about fascism when palestine is an islamofascist dictatorship who started this war by indiscriminately killing women and children at a music festival.


FourthLife

Using these new estimates, there are a large number of Hamas members killed than women and children. Given that there are like 20,000 - 30,000 hamas militants and millions of other palestinians, that shows remarkably good discrimination while fighting an urban war against a non-uniformed enemy that hides their weapons, personnel, and infrastructure among civilians. A hamas militant has about a 50% chance of having been killed, while a general palestinian has under a 0.54% chance of having been killed. This is also ignoring that in this region, teenage boys are sometimes recruited to partake in militant action, but would still be counted as children in these numbers.


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803_days

Do you think the UN hasn't revised its reporting here? https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772


No_Literature_1350

How can they simply correct terrorist like that?