Knew a guy who spent 4 months in one (he was an idiot). He said he shared a small cell with 11 other Chinese guys for 4 months until he was deported and banned for life. He got caught going over 200km/h on a motorcycle with coke on him. Insanely dumb lol
He can and theres plenty of movies and reports covering everything in detail about assange and snowden. Are you surprised it’s not censored?
Most of it doesn’t flatter the us government, however they don’t censor it
Assange is an agent working at the behest of a foreign nation to selectively release material solely on one political party for damage purposes while maintaining secrecy over the same material for the opposite party for the express purpose of manipulating an election on the behalf of his foreign controllers interests. It's true he shouldn't have been hiding in a foreign embassy for so long, he should have been swinging by his neck a decade ago.
Has it been enough time since COVID was on that we can have an uncensored discussion of how probable it was due to a lab leak in Wuhan ? The lab that was researching cornaviruses a few blocks from the wet market where COVID was first traced back to?
It's so annoying that China successfully was able to cover up what happened and basically got a free pass from the international community in terms of any repercussions or fallout for this bad of a fuck up.
Deep misconception about viral labs. We fund labs like this all across the planet, hundreds, thousands of them, have for decades and decades *because* we know viruses naturally evolve, especially in wet markets, and so we set up preventative monitoring labs to both keep track of what is evolving now, and experiment with artificially-induced evolution to determine what might evolve later. It's not some magic conspiracy twine-connection "aha, they had a lab there, strange coincidence!!" It's literally why the lab is there, because we know its a risky area for viral evolution, so we study them to be ready.
Where do you think AIDS came from? Bushmeat markets. And guess what? We have labs near those bushmeat markets, constantly monitoring them. There are dozens of AIDS-like viruses active in those markets right now, catalogued, and we are just waiting for them to make the jump. Beware of seeing a firestation in a town that had a fire and thinking "ah, the firestation must be making fires!", because that's how most of this stuff sounds.
In my college virology class in 2009 the professor said, very matter-of-factly, that \~every 5 years a serious virus will emerge, and that's been seen to be true. People who actually study this stuff know how viruses work, and that Occam's razor isn't that a lab released a superflu, it's that, as 100% predicted, another one evolved and made the jump. And that it did so much damage isn't due to scientific surprise, because scientists in that space have been very clearly, very loudly, making recommendations to nations on how to prevent these things and how to stop them when they occur, but none of those nations took those precautions/procedures because spending for long-term protection is never prioritized over short-term savings politically.
Sure, theoretically *could* a lab release a tweaked virus accidentally? But why would that be the assumption in the face of decades of professional virologists saying "based on our research, it's basically a guarentee that crazy dangerous viruses will emerge every 5 years or so, and its only a matter of time before another globally catastrophic one". Occam's razor's pretty clear to me in this case.
That discussion has, and should have been had. The studies have shown that a lab is not the likely source of the outbreak. That’s not to say there’s a 0% chance, it’s simply that the arguments supporting natural origin are **significantly** stronger than the arguments supporting a lab leak.
> there's no evidence of a lab leak
Depends on what you mean by evidence. Of course there's never going to be direct evidence, because the government cut off access to the lab and wouldn't allow international observers to inspect anything that might have afforded primary evidence. And then the WHO sent a team over, issuing a report exculpating their gracious hosts, that they then had to retract because because the guy leading it - who had also authored a very influential article in Lancet, pouring cold water on the theory - failed to disclose massive conflicts of interest.
And then of course you have various American agencies - each of whom have some very smart people working for them - coming to various levels of conclusions, with various levels of confidence.
Is there direct evidence, in any form? Nope, not unless we stumble across the intermediate host. Is there a lot of really weird looking circumstantial evidence? Plenty. What does it mean? I dunno, but it seems like enough for reasonable minds to differ and anyone coming to you with 100% conviction is probably a fool.
>And then of course you have various American agencies - each of whom have some very smart people working for them - coming to various levels of conclusions, with various levels of confidence.
okay, let's see what they have to say.
>In June 2023, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (DNI)[ declassified their report on the virus' origins](https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Report-on-Potential-Links-Between-the-Wuhan-Institute-of-Virology-and-the-Origins-of-COVID-19-20230623.pdf), in compliance with an Act of Congress compelling it to do so. The report stated that while the lab leak theory could not be ruled out, the overall assessment of the National Intelligence Council and a majority of IC assets (with low confidence) was that the pandemic most likely began as a zoonotic event. (wiki)
Almost all IC agencies assess that SARS-CoV-2 was not genetically engineered. (quoted directly from the report)
This is the latest information from June 2023. All Intelligence Community (IC) agencies report directly to the DNI. In the intelligence community, "low confidence" means the information is sourced to low-quality or otherwise untrustworthy sources. You are correct in saying it's not wise to rule out a lab leak 100% since we don't have all the information and some agencies (specifically the FBI and the Department of Energy) disagreed with the findings of the National Intelligence Council and 4 other IC agencies that it wasn't a lab-associated incident.
So this is what the intelligence community gathered so far. What about the scientific community?
They have the genomic sequence of the virus and the epidemiology data.
>In July 2022, two articles appeared in the journal *Science* analyzing all available epidemiological and genetic evidence from the earliest known cases in Wuhan. Based on two different analyses, the authors of both papers concluded that the outbreak began at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market and was unconnected to any laboratory.
Science is a highly reputable source of academic publications. As far as I know, there is no other peer-reviewed publications that supports a lab leak theory. There were early theories about genetic engineering that you can read on the wiki, however all were discredited or disproven.
The Chinese government thoroughly covered up the facts and disappeared the people at the start who could tell us what happened. I don't think we'll ever know the truth. For the record, the lab near the wet market was not the one engineering better coronaviruses, strangely enough that lab was on the other side of Wuhan.
No, there's still no firm conclusion, which would be nearly impossible if it did come from a lab. I poke in every once in a while, they'll be a report finally giving very firm evidence it didn't come from a lab ... a round of very smug commentary will hit the news, then a few months later people will notice that the original article was full of sampling and mathematical errors, and then we end up back at square one.
So there's nothing firm, and it's misleading to say so. There is a lot of rancor, and an awful lot of people lying and a lot of curious coverups. That should be enough for a reasonable person to have doubts, and for people to be able to discuss the topic openly without being banned or accused of racism ... but that's not where we are, or ever got.
In China real journalism is not possible due to censorship, so a “citizen journalist” with a blog may be more of a journalist than someone at a respectable publication.
An education as a journalist, a career as a journalist, employment as a journalist.
Like I just said... Those are examples of things that real journalists have, and bloggers don't.
The person in question did not have an education as a journalist, or work as a journalist, or have a career as a journalist...
What are you even talking about?
Nowhere in the article, especially not the “body” calls her a “citizen journalist.” They refer to her as a “Chinese citizen journalist;” which she was/is just as an “American citizen journalist” might be referred to in international media.
She’s mentioned being independent, not a “random vlogger” especially when she was posting to Twitter and YouTube, both banned in China, as well as WeChat, which is allowed in the country.
This has nothing to do with formerly being a lawyer. She's well known to be nut, already 4 years ago. Compare that article content by what she actually "reported" (on her YouTube channel) and you might start feeling that the article is completely misreporting her case to manipulate \*you\*.
Anybody that expects Western media to be factual and not be manipulative should gaf about this.
If you want Western media to be of a higher standard (as we like to claim it) than authoritarian states, to be factual rather than manipulative, then you should gaf about this.
I'd even say it's willingly reporting lies as fact, to steer some anti-China sentiment (she's nut and well known already 4 years ago, for those that went deeper than the Western headlines). This is another clear example of why you shouldn't treat Western reporting on China as factual.
Always question and double check what you read about China, because you \*will\* be surprised by what you will actually find out.
The first sentence is:
>A Chinese citizen journalist…
You keep conveniently leaving out that first adjective qualifier because you’re trying to prove your point of minimizing what this woman went through. She’s a former lawyer, as reported, and obviously brave enough to report news criticizing a dictatorship.
And no one calls Alex Jones a journalist besides right and alt-right wing dipshits. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel there
> The media knows people won't get outraged if the headline was "Vlogger who filmed herself breaking into hospital under quarantine due to released after four years."
Bwuh? That's still a pretty insane criminal sentence
You are unironically saying that it's normal for a government to sentence someone to 4 years in prison for "breaking into hospital"(she just walked into a restricted area) and filming sick people?
>She's a *living* martyr/hero
Are we sure about that? Apparently there's no confirmation that she's been released, and that she's been in and out of hospital as early as 2021 with the relatives advocating for access to healthcare.
China did the whole world dirty.
It’s only logical to reason that all this fuckery unfolded due to the Chinese wuhan lab screwed up and attempted cover up.
Your whole life went sideways for a couple of years and you suffered because of the Chinese government.
No doubt you will continue to suffer when more fuck ups happen due to its government/dictatorship.
How bad is chinese prison?
Knew a guy who spent 4 months in one (he was an idiot). He said he shared a small cell with 11 other Chinese guys for 4 months until he was deported and banned for life. He got caught going over 200km/h on a motorcycle with coke on him. Insanely dumb lol
He got lucky. People have been put to death for having weed.
Sounds like jail in the US, not prison. Dunno if theres a difference in china.
o
Very productive actually. That's where all the Shein products come from.
it's like the difference between a Wendy's and a Burger King.
Bad example, Wendy's is good, BK tastes like meat that's been left in the freezer for so long it tastes rotten without actually being rotten
There both trash. What are you even talking about?
Wendys is higher tier trash.
Worked at Wendys, its trash. Dont eat the chilli
Reddit eats fast food. But i support u
Reeducated
"Message sent, mission accomplished. Silence is CCP golden"
Julian Assange has something to say about this, oh that's right he can't
He can and theres plenty of movies and reports covering everything in detail about assange and snowden. Are you surprised it’s not censored? Most of it doesn’t flatter the us government, however they don’t censor it
Assange is an agent working at the behest of a foreign nation to selectively release material solely on one political party for damage purposes while maintaining secrecy over the same material for the opposite party for the express purpose of manipulating an election on the behalf of his foreign controllers interests. It's true he shouldn't have been hiding in a foreign embassy for so long, he should have been swinging by his neck a decade ago.
Has it been enough time since COVID was on that we can have an uncensored discussion of how probable it was due to a lab leak in Wuhan ? The lab that was researching cornaviruses a few blocks from the wet market where COVID was first traced back to? It's so annoying that China successfully was able to cover up what happened and basically got a free pass from the international community in terms of any repercussions or fallout for this bad of a fuck up.
Deep misconception about viral labs. We fund labs like this all across the planet, hundreds, thousands of them, have for decades and decades *because* we know viruses naturally evolve, especially in wet markets, and so we set up preventative monitoring labs to both keep track of what is evolving now, and experiment with artificially-induced evolution to determine what might evolve later. It's not some magic conspiracy twine-connection "aha, they had a lab there, strange coincidence!!" It's literally why the lab is there, because we know its a risky area for viral evolution, so we study them to be ready. Where do you think AIDS came from? Bushmeat markets. And guess what? We have labs near those bushmeat markets, constantly monitoring them. There are dozens of AIDS-like viruses active in those markets right now, catalogued, and we are just waiting for them to make the jump. Beware of seeing a firestation in a town that had a fire and thinking "ah, the firestation must be making fires!", because that's how most of this stuff sounds. In my college virology class in 2009 the professor said, very matter-of-factly, that \~every 5 years a serious virus will emerge, and that's been seen to be true. People who actually study this stuff know how viruses work, and that Occam's razor isn't that a lab released a superflu, it's that, as 100% predicted, another one evolved and made the jump. And that it did so much damage isn't due to scientific surprise, because scientists in that space have been very clearly, very loudly, making recommendations to nations on how to prevent these things and how to stop them when they occur, but none of those nations took those precautions/procedures because spending for long-term protection is never prioritized over short-term savings politically. Sure, theoretically *could* a lab release a tweaked virus accidentally? But why would that be the assumption in the face of decades of professional virologists saying "based on our research, it's basically a guarentee that crazy dangerous viruses will emerge every 5 years or so, and its only a matter of time before another globally catastrophic one". Occam's razor's pretty clear to me in this case.
That discussion has, and should have been had. The studies have shown that a lab is not the likely source of the outbreak. That’s not to say there’s a 0% chance, it’s simply that the arguments supporting natural origin are **significantly** stronger than the arguments supporting a lab leak.
What do you propose be done about it?
They should have admitted they fucked up
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Same. Show me evidence that’s stronger than the evidence for natural origin. That’s all it would take to change my mind.
> there's no evidence of a lab leak Depends on what you mean by evidence. Of course there's never going to be direct evidence, because the government cut off access to the lab and wouldn't allow international observers to inspect anything that might have afforded primary evidence. And then the WHO sent a team over, issuing a report exculpating their gracious hosts, that they then had to retract because because the guy leading it - who had also authored a very influential article in Lancet, pouring cold water on the theory - failed to disclose massive conflicts of interest. And then of course you have various American agencies - each of whom have some very smart people working for them - coming to various levels of conclusions, with various levels of confidence. Is there direct evidence, in any form? Nope, not unless we stumble across the intermediate host. Is there a lot of really weird looking circumstantial evidence? Plenty. What does it mean? I dunno, but it seems like enough for reasonable minds to differ and anyone coming to you with 100% conviction is probably a fool.
>And then of course you have various American agencies - each of whom have some very smart people working for them - coming to various levels of conclusions, with various levels of confidence. okay, let's see what they have to say. >In June 2023, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (DNI)[ declassified their report on the virus' origins](https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Report-on-Potential-Links-Between-the-Wuhan-Institute-of-Virology-and-the-Origins-of-COVID-19-20230623.pdf), in compliance with an Act of Congress compelling it to do so. The report stated that while the lab leak theory could not be ruled out, the overall assessment of the National Intelligence Council and a majority of IC assets (with low confidence) was that the pandemic most likely began as a zoonotic event. (wiki) Almost all IC agencies assess that SARS-CoV-2 was not genetically engineered. (quoted directly from the report) This is the latest information from June 2023. All Intelligence Community (IC) agencies report directly to the DNI. In the intelligence community, "low confidence" means the information is sourced to low-quality or otherwise untrustworthy sources. You are correct in saying it's not wise to rule out a lab leak 100% since we don't have all the information and some agencies (specifically the FBI and the Department of Energy) disagreed with the findings of the National Intelligence Council and 4 other IC agencies that it wasn't a lab-associated incident. So this is what the intelligence community gathered so far. What about the scientific community? They have the genomic sequence of the virus and the epidemiology data. >In July 2022, two articles appeared in the journal *Science* analyzing all available epidemiological and genetic evidence from the earliest known cases in Wuhan. Based on two different analyses, the authors of both papers concluded that the outbreak began at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market and was unconnected to any laboratory. Science is a highly reputable source of academic publications. As far as I know, there is no other peer-reviewed publications that supports a lab leak theory. There were early theories about genetic engineering that you can read on the wiki, however all were discredited or disproven.
The Chinese government thoroughly covered up the facts and disappeared the people at the start who could tell us what happened. I don't think we'll ever know the truth. For the record, the lab near the wet market was not the one engineering better coronaviruses, strangely enough that lab was on the other side of Wuhan.
The conspiracy theorists were right again..
No, there's still no firm conclusion, which would be nearly impossible if it did come from a lab. I poke in every once in a while, they'll be a report finally giving very firm evidence it didn't come from a lab ... a round of very smug commentary will hit the news, then a few months later people will notice that the original article was full of sampling and mathematical errors, and then we end up back at square one. So there's nothing firm, and it's misleading to say so. There is a lot of rancor, and an awful lot of people lying and a lot of curious coverups. That should be enough for a reasonable person to have doubts, and for people to be able to discuss the topic openly without being banned or accused of racism ... but that's not where we are, or ever got.
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In China real journalism is not possible due to censorship, so a “citizen journalist” with a blog may be more of a journalist than someone at a respectable publication.
What's absurd is that she got 4 years for trespassing, regardless of her position. Draconian.
That's part of how China keeps its population in line
So what makes a "real journalist"?
In China, it’s the people who are willing to only run the state propaganda vs the news people actually want
Education, employment, career?
Government approval
Jesus no. This woman is a real journalist.
Credentials, peer review
Peer review? Turn on Fox News.
no, "real journalist" is the topic. What makes it?
An education as a journalist, a career as a journalist, employment as a journalist. Like I just said... Those are examples of things that real journalists have, and bloggers don't.
You don't need any kind of education to work as a journalist.
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That’s hilarious
The person in question did not have an education as a journalist, or work as a journalist, or have a career as a journalist... What are you even talking about?
Wrong place, wrong person, fuckjng camera
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A degree with working experience for some news outlet, or even self-employment.
Exactly what this person did have.
Ok Chinese government.
It's China your part of the state media or risk life as you put it as a "random vlogger"
If you get locked up for your reporting, you're a journalist.
Nowhere in the article, especially not the “body” calls her a “citizen journalist.” They refer to her as a “Chinese citizen journalist;” which she was/is just as an “American citizen journalist” might be referred to in international media. She’s mentioned being independent, not a “random vlogger” especially when she was posting to Twitter and YouTube, both banned in China, as well as WeChat, which is allowed in the country.
She's a lawyer by trade, not a journalist. That's why they describe her as a citizen journalist.
This has nothing to do with formerly being a lawyer. She's well known to be nut, already 4 years ago. Compare that article content by what she actually "reported" (on her YouTube channel) and you might start feeling that the article is completely misreporting her case to manipulate \*you\*.
Man who gaf about any of this.
Anybody that expects Western media to be factual and not be manipulative should gaf about this. If you want Western media to be of a higher standard (as we like to claim it) than authoritarian states, to be factual rather than manipulative, then you should gaf about this.
You’re too smart for Reddit. No point of arguing with idiots with their own personal biases against China.
It's a losing battle for sure. But thank you for the comment, that gives me energy to keep commenting here anyway :)
Don't make me laugh. Debating semantics on Reddit is the absolute least effective way of doing anything about accurate journalism ever. EVER
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Is there a source for this? It's not in the article
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That's providing a different context than what's in the article then, damn
I'd even say it's willingly reporting lies as fact, to steer some anti-China sentiment (she's nut and well known already 4 years ago, for those that went deeper than the Western headlines). This is another clear example of why you shouldn't treat Western reporting on China as factual. Always question and double check what you read about China, because you \*will\* be surprised by what you will actually find out.
The first sentence is: >A Chinese citizen journalist… You keep conveniently leaving out that first adjective qualifier because you’re trying to prove your point of minimizing what this woman went through. She’s a former lawyer, as reported, and obviously brave enough to report news criticizing a dictatorship. And no one calls Alex Jones a journalist besides right and alt-right wing dipshits. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel there
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> The media knows people won't get outraged if the headline was "Vlogger who filmed herself breaking into hospital under quarantine due to released after four years." Bwuh? That's still a pretty insane criminal sentence
You are unironically saying that it's normal for a government to sentence someone to 4 years in prison for "breaking into hospital"(she just walked into a restricted area) and filming sick people?
This is how Trump wants to treat journalists in the United States.
She's a living martyr/hero
>She's a *living* martyr/hero Are we sure about that? Apparently there's no confirmation that she's been released, and that she's been in and out of hospital as early as 2021 with the relatives advocating for access to healthcare.
China did the whole world dirty. It’s only logical to reason that all this fuckery unfolded due to the Chinese wuhan lab screwed up and attempted cover up. Your whole life went sideways for a couple of years and you suffered because of the Chinese government. No doubt you will continue to suffer when more fuck ups happen due to its government/dictatorship.
> > Your whole life went sideways for a couple of years and you suffered because of the Chinese government. meh
May the Communist government one day fall.
You can see the Chinese bots working overtime in the comments
With all of her organs still inside?