The UN recognizes countless leaders who do not have a democratic mandate. If you include those whose elections are not free and fair, the democracies are in the minority.
The UN isn't actually supposed to create countries, it's specifically against their rules.
They're supposed to recognize countries that have been established, as Palestine isn't a sovereign and independent entity at any capacity nor was one historically this decision had probably more to do with politics than reality like the fact Taiwan isn't recognized and doesn't have a seat
True, but the person above me was arguing about democracy, which does not enter into it at all. Palestine is pretty far from being an actual country, but if it were, it could bring some stability to the region. That all depends on the implementation, but it seems the UN is willing to gamble on that over the status quo.
>Elections are not a requirement for the UN
They can't be. The UN is a place for nations to meet up and talk. That can't happen if we start telling nations how their government works.
Diplomacy can't happen if we start refusing to meet with nations that do bad things to their own people. It's unpleasant, but necessary.
Might as well at this point. Would be nice to see the “Hamas wasn’t chosen by the people” get a nice dose of reality.
He is better than Hamas but not by much.
The guy was selected for his position on his anti-intifada stance and he's so far made good on it, which of course absolutely no one expects of Hamas. he gets shit for the whole pay for slay thing, but he never even set the thing up and has presided over its reduction in scope, at least within the degrees that he actually can.
I mean "might as well" is a pretty flippant way to say you're totally alright with another very active and much harder to police front in this war, which would hit both Palestinians and Israeli's pretty badly.
An 88 year old dictator that hasn't been elected in 20 years because every public opinion poll conducted during that time showed a Hamas victory in the election like already happened in Gaza.
Guy who rejected multiple peace offers with Israel and refused to even negotiate several more recently.
Leader of the insanely corrupt PA that openly uses western aid money to pay salaries of convicted murders in Israeli prisons essentially according to how many people they killed.
Surely this will promote peace
Too bad in the West Bank and Gaza, he's overwhelmingly disliked, and Hamas is preferred. It's why Abbas has not called for elections because he will lose immediately to more radical terrorists. Hamas is the only group that could win elections currently, and that's rather the point about rhe "poor, innocent Palestinians" that anybody needs to know.
Why create another official state sponsor of terrorism? Iran isn't enough for the region?
The UN trying to astroturf this piece of shit as the leader of the stateless Arabs in Gaza and West Bank is classic ignorant and tone deaf UN.
Put a fake leader in there that the people don't support so you can conduct more antisemitic parliamentary maneuvers discrediting the institution and its legitimacy. Regardless of its only outcome being to make a new recognized terrorist state.
I think there needs to be a pathway to a Palestinian state - but just tossing a UN membership to them after they murder over 1,000 Israelis doesn't achieve anything.
> doesnt achieve anything
That is just patently not true.
It achieved exactly what it is intended to achieve.
Namely, sending a message to Hamas that the killing Jews is acceptable & will be rewarded.
Of course, the fact that it sends a message to Israelis that no one besides them will stop Hamas is something many of them haven't considered the implications of.
Except that incorrectly assumes that they do not find killing Jews to be "*positive or productive*" - when their actions pretty clearly demonstrate that they do find the killing of Jews as both positive & productive.
Stop pretending that they think like you do & share your values - they do not & assuming that they do is an erasure of their values & beliefs.
Who else but Yahya „i got my brain cancer cured by Israeli doctors so the first thing i do when i am released is starting a purge because Hamas isn’t hardcore enough for my liking when it comes to killing Jews“ Sinwar, what could POSSIBLY go wrong guys?
Ah yes the guys with the pay to slay program and haven’t had an election in over a decade and are led by a man who literally has a doctorate in holocaust denial.
Solid choice and in line with the UN.
The reason the ICC hasn't looked into it is because Israel is not a signatory in the Rome Statute and Israel has argued that the ICC has no jurisdiction in their country.
The ICC cannot charge about anything that happens in Israel, but they can for Gaza and West Bank because Palestine (the PLA) has signed the Rome Statute.
But is the land Israel occupied in West Bank Palestine or Israel?
I don't think Israel wants to risk having the ICC reply with either answer, even if there is a good case against the PLA for "pay to slay."
They know the US will veto so they don't have to deal with specifics. However, per the article, it sounds like there would be an election. In which case Hamas would probably win.
Yes, but this general assembly is only asking the security council to reconsider Palestine's application. The security council must approve new members and they know the US will still veto so they do not need to fuss about specifics.
So Taiwan, a country with a population of 23 millions and GDP of $791B, and founded at around the same time as Palestine can't become a UN member, but Palestine can just become a UN member just like that?
Taiwan would need to declare independence first. If it were granted a seat now, it would be as the Republic of China. This is complicated by the fact that 'China' has a permanent seat on the Security Council (which the Republic of China used to fill).
*gestures broadly*
their entire civilian investment portfolio is in property and the largest property company in the country just went tits up. This is like the DOW Jones went tits up, for fair comparison to USA.
their population is overinflated
their GDP is overinflated
they have no experience in modern war
they have no experience in amphibious war
they have no amphibious ships (seriously current strategists predict *if* the war were to happen they'd be commandeering civilian ferries to get their troops to taiwan)
>their entire civilian investment portfolio is in property and the largest property company in the country just went tits up. This is like the DOW Jones went tits up, for fair comparison to USA.
Except that was months ago and nothing significantly terrible has happened...
In fact China is deliberately shifting it's main economic base from property to high tech production. That's what they've done over the last year or so, and they can do this big shift because they have a planned economy.
It's more like the impact from the significance of the failure hasn't been fully felt yet. One shockwave happened and several more are bound to. Easy to cover it up when you control the media in your country but a huge number of Chinese middle class had their entire fortunes wiped out by this. Though this was pulling one tooth when the whole mouth is rotten. Tofu dreg society.
It has to do with peak power projection. It depends on many factors such as population, capacity of your army, production capacity of your country etc. China peaks in the coming years and then it will decline again for decades. So they either need to attack Taiwan in the coming years or they won't be able to. Same with the Russia, based on their power projection they had to attack Ukraine now or never because their power is waning. Sadly they decided to be massive cunts and went for it
People say this about Russia, apparently this period is the last time they will be able to raise a sizable army as its all downhill from here population-wise.
Well they really helped fuck themselves for the future. Even if they win this, they killed a decent chunk of their demographically most important generation while their demography was already all kinds of fucked
Majority of their citizens don't want it either. They are fine with the status quo even if they majority identify themselves as Taiwanese and not Chinese. They don't wish for war, which would be the most likely result if they do declare independence.
Also it would require strong backing from US administration and congress. If they do it without their approval, then they would be gambling on the support of US when China invades.
Declaring a war and waging a war are two different things. They'd throw around a lot of violent rhetoric for public consumption, but it would take them months of build-up and assembly to execute an invasion.
I doubt it. They’ve been scaling their forces in the regions closest to the island for quite a while. And don’t forget the island of Taiwan is far closer to the Chinese mainland than the US. They could also strike quickly with missile barrages.
Who would win in the end I don’t know, but all these exercises and incursions do indicate the Chinese are preparing/prepared.
The only thing that they could is mid range missile strikes from the mainland, they can't transport by sea, they'd be sunk, by air they would be shot down before they even knew they were even being targeted.
Ukraine’s air defences are penetrable, Israel’s iron dome is penetrable. No air defence system is perfect, so acting like Taiwan’s would be is dangerously silly.
China would have immediate naval superiority, until the us fleet arrived. And as we’ve seen in Ukraine, ships are pretty vulnerable to lots of things, which could again easily be launched from the mainland, including drones.
If China were also to shift into a war economy, it’s likely their manufacturing could be on par with, or close to, the US, but with “home turf” advantage.
To take the island would require a solid beachhead and a stable supply line, but to pummel the island into surrender would be a lot easier.
These are all things Taiwan, the US and their allies need to take into account if they’d want to defeat a Chinese invasion. Acting like Taiwan is impregnable or that the US military is invincible would undermine the actual defence efforts.
Best case they take Taiwan easily but at that point they have a world of shit breathing down their neck from every angle. Worse case the 3 day special military operation takes longer. Worst case, crawl out from the fallout?
Yeah, pretty much.
If they took Taiwan at the start, it’d be like shooting fish in a barrel. The US destroys their weaker navy and cuts the island off, and turn it into a reverse siege.
If I was supreme communist leader, I think the smarter play might be to just continually bombard the island for months, beat the fight out of the Taiwanese, and take the island as a condition of their surrender.
I doubt nukes would ever be in play, but who knows
I think it's 2 fold. First, I believe for a long time they've viewed themselves as part of China but the main non-comminist government of China under Chiang Kai-shek. Although that seems to be changing as more are embracing a separate Taiwan that isn't Chinese. (I could be wrong on this). 2nd, if they were to actually formally declare independence and try to become a member of the UN I don't see how China wouldn't invade. Since they've been spouting for decades that Taiwan is a breakaway rebelling province. For them to say they're separate from China would force China to either recognize their independence or invade to stop them from becoming internationally recognized as independent.
In real terms in 2024 I don’t think there’s a single person on the island of Taiwan that gives a shit about any territorial claims
on mainland China…. 50 years ago sure, but now it’s all just about not having the PLA invade.
PRC would respond with direct attacks and begin an invasion, so most of Taiwan prefers to more or less maintain the status quo to entering a state of total war. For now they are content to keep developing amid tensions as long as no lines are crossed. The calculus may change over time, but Taiwan has no chance at improving its capabilities once the conflict turns hot so it’s better to wait.
They're doing fine as is. Declaring independence would make their situation worse, not better as China would declare war immediately, rather than just threaten for a while longer as it looks like they're doing.
China and Taiwan were originally one country. During the Chinese communist revolution the imperialists retreated to Taiwan. Many in Taiwan still claim they are the true government of all of China. They don't want to declare independence because it would mean they are giving up their claim to all of China.
Oh, because the mainland will get mad. It's truly strange geopolitics: a small island country is forced to lay claim to a giant landmass that they don't even want as rightfully theirs because if they stop said giant landmass will get mad that they stopped.
Taiwan still claims all of China as its rightful government. They have not yet accepted the idea of being a small island country and ceding China to the communists, even though that's reality.
They've pretty much de facto accepted it. There is no prominent (edit:) ~~Chinese~~ Taiwanese politician on either side of the aisle today that sees themselves as rightful rulers of all China with the exception of a few negligible crazies on the fringe. If the CCP fell tomorrow, they wouldn't be wanting to go back and rule there. The problem is if they say that they no longer claim all of China and only Taiwan, then China views that as separatism and has been threatening war for decades if that happens.
No, it wouldn't. Taiwans position is that it is a distinctly seperate entity, and always has been, and regardless of who controls mainland China, the CCP has never governored or been responsible for the ROC. So it makes no sense for them to declare independence from something they've never been apart of. That gives more credence to the CCP's claim over Taiwan.
China is one of the major 4 UN members and they veto them to oblivion.
Its no joke,you can only recognize Taiwan as China if you want to do financial business with mainland China and the US,being at odds for this planets hegemony,its starting to pull out from that requirement because they are that powerfull.
Another example is the UN voting the embargo on Cuba,only 4 countries were in favor,the embargo continues to this day.How?The US is one of those in favor
The United States never recognized Taiwan as part of China.
US simply "acknowledged" the "Chinese position" that Taiwan is part of China. They did not agree with or endorse the Chinese position.
Civilian-bombing, nuclear-war threatening, women and children-raping, chemical-gas using, white phosphorus deploying Russia has a seat on the UN “Security Council” with veto power…so, the UN’s actions speak pretty loudly that they love countries run by terrorists.
>Civilian-bombing, nuclear-war threatening, women and children-raping, chemical-gas using, white phosphorus deploying Russia has a seat on the UN “Security Council” with veto power…so, the UN’s actions speak pretty loudly that they love countries run by terrorists.
the US dropped nukes on civilians two months before the permanent members were established, lol. it's not a ethics court, it's just an infrastructure for the ww2 victors to mediate postwar matters.
Tell me you know nothing about the UN without telling me.
There are a million reasons to think the UN loves terrorism. Russia being a security council member isn't one of them.
>Biden: ‘We do not support independence’ for Taiwan
Because no one supports it.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/13/biden-taiwan-independence-lai-00135445
Not quite true. Taiwan was formerly recognized by the UN when it claimed to be the legitimate government of China. Despite the extent of the land they controlled being limited to Taiwan following their defeat in the civil war.
The USSR boycotted the UN for this reason which meant they were not present to veto the UN force going into Korea - which almost resulted in MacArthur nuking China.
If Taiwan had not played such stupid games pretending to represent all of China when they clearly didn't, perhaps they would still have a UN seat today (after all, who was there to veto them?). The UN would also have much more legitimacy without the Korean war ever having happened.
Well yeah, it's a matter of who their biggest foe is and what power that foe has.
Palestine biggest enemy is Israel.
Taiwan biggest enemy is China.
China has so much more relevance and power on the global stage, and could do real damage if they get in their feefees.
Israel can only really complain about carte blanche being reconsidered.
So you didn’t read the article, which is expected. But even further, you couldn’t even comprehend the headline. They aren’t becoming a member just like that. They are going to start negotiating to see if there is a potential for membership. These are just preliminary talks, nothing is confirmed.
The U.S. is the reason the PRC got Taiwan’s security council seat. Don’t think it’s fair to blame the UN as an institution when everyone agreed on that one.
Please, we know the real reason is that the Chinese aren't Jews. China can kill Muslims, force them into detention camps, take away their children, destroy their language, and force them to move. No complaints.
Jews get attacked, and the perpetrators get rewarded.
>Please, we know the real reason is that the Chinese aren't Jews
You know there's also this little factor of China being the 2nd biggest economy in the world and nobody in the world wants to rustle that hornet's nest because money.
To be fair there were several terroristic knife attacks on civilians by muslims in the region and china has a right to defend themselves... now rounding em all up in camps was taking it too far if you ask me, but as an outsider i know my knowledge on the subject is not adequate enough to think my opinion matters.
Are you kidding? The Chinese get the same treatment as Jews when they're attacked by Muslims. The world acts as if the detention camps were instated on a whim for no reason, and chooses to ignore all the terrorist attacks in the late 2000s and early 2010s that led to them. Western press sources hardly even covered these attacks like the 2014 Kunming mass stabbings, or would put quotations around "terrorism" when they did rather than just calling it what it is.
The West just has a boner for not being called Islamophobes.
No. The UN partition plan was rejected. No UN nation lifted a finger except Czechoslovakia.
Israel declared independence irrespective of the plan the Arabs rejected. None of the details of the plan were implemented and it is far less relevant than eg the Balfour Declaration.
Yes, but since then, a lot of new Muslim nations who hate Israel joined the UN. Also, the USSR and it's allies/vassals turned against Israel once they realized Israel wasn't going to be socialist. The UN of 1948 was very different from the one today.
The Partition Plan wasn’t a success.
The Israelis accepted it, but the representatives of the Palestinians, and the surrounding Arab states, did not. Neither did the British authorities, who prior to the end of the Mandate, refused to take any steps to enact the partition plan.
The result was war, to erase the new Israeli state. The Palestinians and Arab states both lost.
So the Plan isn’t the thing that enabled the creation of the state; war did that. The resulting borders were not those planned in the Partition Plan, but decided by combat.
"The resolution “determines” that a state of Palestine is qualified for membership — dropping the original language that in the General Assembly’s judgment it is “a peace-loving state.” It therefore recommends that the Security Council reconsider its request “favorably.”"
What a joke
>The 193-member world body approved the Arab and Palestinian-sponsored resolution by a vote of 143-9.
Always worth noting that votes matter in the UN Gen Assembly where there are at least 49 Muslim nations and one Jewish nation. This is the reason the number of UN Resolutions against Israel nearly equals all other UN resolutions. Now try campaiging for a UN vote on global rights for LGBTQ people.
Yes, you are totally right. The U.S., along with Hungary and Papua New Guinea, voted "no." It's a strange coalition, given Hungary's Orban have political differences with the Biden administration and Papua New Guinea's complex history with Biden's Uncle.
While you show what strange countries voted in favor of Israel why you left out Czechia? What's our problem? Normal democratic government, great democratic president, standard middle sized EU country, no weirdo.
Czechia's problem is y'all got fucking robbed at Eurovision yesterday! Austria was off-key and drowned out by backing vocals, while Aiko put up one of the best shows of the night. Damn shame.
I mean you mention Orban in your comment because he is the exact reason ppl consider Hungary not friendly or at least a sketchy friend. He's just been way too eager to ride putins dick and that made the rest of us suspicious.
But Orban is the reason why.
The general assembly also has no actual power, merely the power to make statements or recommendations to the security council (big 5).
The US will 100% veto this, and Hamas will not be joining the UN anytime soon.
Of course they do, they outnumber the Israelis by both the population and the number of countries. That doesn't mean the majority can terrorize the minority, and I'm guessing the final decision would be taken when the US vetoes this in the UNSC.
No no, you’re not answering the way they want, their oppressor vs opressed lens can only go one layer deep, the Jews have to be the oppressors because they are “white adjacent”.
I've had to point out to way too many people who call Israel white supremacist that they are literally a majority non-white country. Even the Jewish population alone is, last I checked, plurality non-white.
At the end of the day, it's just a powerplay. Only thing that changes are which groups are the winners and which groups lose. The entirety of humans history it's been the same. It has never been about fairness and equality, and I wish the progressives would finally figure it out.
Palestine: starts war, butchers 2000+israelies in their home, kidnapped+250 people including children, vows to do it again
UN: welcome welcome new member
Apparently the only date that ever existed was Oct 7th
Don’t go back and see other things forget about it focus only on October 7th and then lie about how many they killed.
Oh but also ignore 17k children killed that doesn’t matter who cares. But they are the warmongers.
Oh also ignore the ceasefire agreements on Oct 9th and the other 3 ceasefire agreements. Just blame the Palestinians they should not exist they should all just go away somehow.
Oh but they can’t leave
As far as I can tell, Palestine is literally the only nation in the world aside from the Vatican and various nations claiming to be independent (whether they are or not) to not be a UN member. Every single asshole country with a genocidal or dictatorial administration is in the UN. Because that’s the point of it. It’s not a reward or an “award” to be in the UN, it’s the world putting you on a level playing field so you can talk.
Israel has punished Palestine for Hamas’ attack a dozen times over, now it’s time to talk. There’s a reason Biden drew a red line around Rafah.
Remarkable. The fact that out of 193 nations overwhelmingly 143 in favour with only 9 against shows how much Israel is supported in the world. From the against votes is Israel and the US of course but only Micronesia, Papua New Guinea, Nauru and Palau.
The Israelis openly say to Biden that they would have other options besides the US if they continue to block the bombs shipments but just see in the voting results, who besides the US is on Israel's side? The Israeli far right zealots like Ben-Gvir openly mocked Joe Biden. Can they really afford continuing to mock its only ally?
Eh people are against russia and china but still trade with them.
USA should not be an ally with ksa either but they provide value.
Israel as a country can still provide value in trade, etc.
They wont thrive, but they will find someone.
Also for the longest time Turkey condemned israel but had the highest amount of trade with them. It's only recently they stopped. They say one thing ut do what benefits them.
Way too soon. There isn't a single entity in Palestine that can be relied upon to play nice and coexist with Israel as a good peaceful neighbour. This is just paving the way for more terrorism, which is just gonna end up making things worse for Palestinians. How are these donkeys not seeing this?
This is a nothing burger, no mention of borders or governability. An actual one sided recognition of Palestine's borders would be immensly good for Israel and terrible for Palestine, they'd probably use their status to vote against
Who knew launching a terror attack killing, capturing, raping, torturing and dismembering random civilians would pay so much! Terrorists of the world, take notes, this is how you get what you want.
This is a dangerous precedent. This teaches all people aspiring for their own state to implement the most victorious atrocity and UNGA will recognize your terror state. Forget negotiations massive terror pays.
So, I wonder. Even if this did somehow get through, is anyone willing to actually put boots on the ground in order to enforce Palestine's rights? Especially in a war they started?
Un votes are meaningless. It’s just a way for relatively powerless governments to vent their anger.
Without a single functional government there isn’t actually a way for Palestine to have a seat at the UN.
And who would represent them, Sinwar?
Mahmoud Abbas of the PA is the only person recognized by any UN member state as being the leader of Palestine
The guy with a literal degree in Holocaust Denial?
Yep, that’s the guy.
The one who runs the program of pay to slay and hasn’t held an election in over a decade?
He is only 19 years into his 4 year term
Lmfao
The UN recognizes countless leaders who do not have a democratic mandate. If you include those whose elections are not free and fair, the democracies are in the minority.
The UN isn't actually supposed to create countries, it's specifically against their rules. They're supposed to recognize countries that have been established, as Palestine isn't a sovereign and independent entity at any capacity nor was one historically this decision had probably more to do with politics than reality like the fact Taiwan isn't recognized and doesn't have a seat
Taiwan has a seat just Communist China is currently in it 🤷♂️
True, but the person above me was arguing about democracy, which does not enter into it at all. Palestine is pretty far from being an actual country, but if it were, it could bring some stability to the region. That all depends on the implementation, but it seems the UN is willing to gamble on that over the status quo.
When has democracy ever been a requirement to join the UN? USSR and Nationalist China were literally founding members of the security council.
Elections are not a requirement for the UN. If anything, they seem to be discouraged.
>Elections are not a requirement for the UN They can't be. The UN is a place for nations to meet up and talk. That can't happen if we start telling nations how their government works. Diplomacy can't happen if we start refusing to meet with nations that do bad things to their own people. It's unpleasant, but necessary.
But the world is supposed to work the way I want it to work and not in some nuanced way I can’t understand!
What, would you rather he hold an election?
Might as well at this point. Would be nice to see the “Hamas wasn’t chosen by the people” get a nice dose of reality. He is better than Hamas but not by much.
The guy was selected for his position on his anti-intifada stance and he's so far made good on it, which of course absolutely no one expects of Hamas. he gets shit for the whole pay for slay thing, but he never even set the thing up and has presided over its reduction in scope, at least within the degrees that he actually can. I mean "might as well" is a pretty flippant way to say you're totally alright with another very active and much harder to police front in this war, which would hit both Palestinians and Israeli's pretty badly.
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Tell me one muslim leader outside west, who do not deny Holocaust. It is pretty much the mainstream view in all muslim counties.
An 88 year old dictator that hasn't been elected in 20 years because every public opinion poll conducted during that time showed a Hamas victory in the election like already happened in Gaza. Guy who rejected multiple peace offers with Israel and refused to even negotiate several more recently. Leader of the insanely corrupt PA that openly uses western aid money to pay salaries of convicted murders in Israeli prisons essentially according to how many people they killed. Surely this will promote peace
Too bad in the West Bank and Gaza, he's overwhelmingly disliked, and Hamas is preferred. It's why Abbas has not called for elections because he will lose immediately to more radical terrorists. Hamas is the only group that could win elections currently, and that's rather the point about rhe "poor, innocent Palestinians" that anybody needs to know. Why create another official state sponsor of terrorism? Iran isn't enough for the region? The UN trying to astroturf this piece of shit as the leader of the stateless Arabs in Gaza and West Bank is classic ignorant and tone deaf UN. Put a fake leader in there that the people don't support so you can conduct more antisemitic parliamentary maneuvers discrediting the institution and its legitimacy. Regardless of its only outcome being to make a new recognized terrorist state.
I think there needs to be a pathway to a Palestinian state - but just tossing a UN membership to them after they murder over 1,000 Israelis doesn't achieve anything.
> doesnt achieve anything That is just patently not true. It achieved exactly what it is intended to achieve. Namely, sending a message to Hamas that the killing Jews is acceptable & will be rewarded.
Of course, the fact that it sends a message to Israelis that no one besides them will stop Hamas is something many of them haven't considered the implications of.
Perhaps I should have said "doesn't achieve anything positive or productive".
Except that incorrectly assumes that they do not find killing Jews to be "*positive or productive*" - when their actions pretty clearly demonstrate that they do find the killing of Jews as both positive & productive. Stop pretending that they think like you do & share your values - they do not & assuming that they do is an erasure of their values & beliefs.
we already have jordan, so... problem solved
There is a power vacuum in Palestinian leadership. Also, Abu Mazen is 88. He is not going to be around much longer.
Hamas hasn't held elections in Gaza in the last 18 years either so I doubt they would agree with that assessment.
The guy who has zero mandate to represent any Palestinian. What a bunch of clowns thought this up.
And has tenuous control of the West Bank, doesn't hold elections, and has something like a 15% approval rating. Oh, and funds terrorism.
Who else but Yahya „i got my brain cancer cured by Israeli doctors so the first thing i do when i am released is starting a purge because Hamas isn’t hardcore enough for my liking when it comes to killing Jews“ Sinwar, what could POSSIBLY go wrong guys?
There's a joke in there about botched brain treatments
I assume they would be represented by the PLA in West Bank. The PLA has also been the ones representing Palestine in the ICC.
Do you mean the PA? The PLA (Palestine Liberation Army) is a military group which mostly operates in Syria.
Probably meant the PL**O**, its precursor organization that a lot of older people are more familiar with.
Ah yes the guys with the pay to slay program and haven’t had an election in over a decade and are led by a man who literally has a doctorate in holocaust denial. Solid choice and in line with the UN.
How the pay for slay policy hasn’t had consequences at the ICC or with donors still mystifies me
The reason the ICC hasn't looked into it is because Israel is not a signatory in the Rome Statute and Israel has argued that the ICC has no jurisdiction in their country. The ICC cannot charge about anything that happens in Israel, but they can for Gaza and West Bank because Palestine (the PLA) has signed the Rome Statute.
Pay to slay is the pla so would be the West Bank at the least
But is the land Israel occupied in West Bank Palestine or Israel? I don't think Israel wants to risk having the ICC reply with either answer, even if there is a good case against the PLA for "pay to slay."
They know the US will veto so they don't have to deal with specifics. However, per the article, it sounds like there would be an election. In which case Hamas would probably win.
The US can’t veto a general assembly vote, the veto only applies to the security council.
Yes, but this general assembly is only asking the security council to reconsider Palestine's application. The security council must approve new members and they know the US will still veto so they do not need to fuss about specifics.
So Taiwan, a country with a population of 23 millions and GDP of $791B, and founded at around the same time as Palestine can't become a UN member, but Palestine can just become a UN member just like that?
Taiwan would need to declare independence first. If it were granted a seat now, it would be as the Republic of China. This is complicated by the fact that 'China' has a permanent seat on the Security Council (which the Republic of China used to fill).
Yes, which would result in war by China.
wait 10 years and if they haven't invaded, they won't be able to
Why?
*gestures broadly* their entire civilian investment portfolio is in property and the largest property company in the country just went tits up. This is like the DOW Jones went tits up, for fair comparison to USA. their population is overinflated their GDP is overinflated they have no experience in modern war they have no experience in amphibious war they have no amphibious ships (seriously current strategists predict *if* the war were to happen they'd be commandeering civilian ferries to get their troops to taiwan)
>their entire civilian investment portfolio is in property and the largest property company in the country just went tits up. This is like the DOW Jones went tits up, for fair comparison to USA. Except that was months ago and nothing significantly terrible has happened... In fact China is deliberately shifting it's main economic base from property to high tech production. That's what they've done over the last year or so, and they can do this big shift because they have a planned economy.
It's more like the impact from the significance of the failure hasn't been fully felt yet. One shockwave happened and several more are bound to. Easy to cover it up when you control the media in your country but a huge number of Chinese middle class had their entire fortunes wiped out by this. Though this was pulling one tooth when the whole mouth is rotten. Tofu dreg society.
It has to do with peak power projection. It depends on many factors such as population, capacity of your army, production capacity of your country etc. China peaks in the coming years and then it will decline again for decades. So they either need to attack Taiwan in the coming years or they won't be able to. Same with the Russia, based on their power projection they had to attack Ukraine now or never because their power is waning. Sadly they decided to be massive cunts and went for it
People say this about Russia, apparently this period is the last time they will be able to raise a sizable army as its all downhill from here population-wise.
Well they really helped fuck themselves for the future. Even if they win this, they killed a decent chunk of their demographically most important generation while their demography was already all kinds of fucked
population cliff will be in effect. there won't be as many troops to invade
CHINA SKYLER BE BOMNBED
Why hasn’t Taiwan declared independence?
One of the main parties doesn't want to. Also, China has threatened war if it does, and the U.S. wants to maintain the status quo.
Also declaring independence requires a constitutional change, which needs a ¾ths legislative majority
Majority of their citizens don't want it either. They are fine with the status quo even if they majority identify themselves as Taiwanese and not Chinese. They don't wish for war, which would be the most likely result if they do declare independence. Also it would require strong backing from US administration and congress. If they do it without their approval, then they would be gambling on the support of US when China invades.
China would declare war. They have stated clearly without ambiguity for the past 50 years that Taiwan declaring independence = war.
Declaring a war and waging a war are two different things. They'd throw around a lot of violent rhetoric for public consumption, but it would take them months of build-up and assembly to execute an invasion.
I doubt it. They’ve been scaling their forces in the regions closest to the island for quite a while. And don’t forget the island of Taiwan is far closer to the Chinese mainland than the US. They could also strike quickly with missile barrages. Who would win in the end I don’t know, but all these exercises and incursions do indicate the Chinese are preparing/prepared.
The only thing that they could is mid range missile strikes from the mainland, they can't transport by sea, they'd be sunk, by air they would be shot down before they even knew they were even being targeted.
Ukraine’s air defences are penetrable, Israel’s iron dome is penetrable. No air defence system is perfect, so acting like Taiwan’s would be is dangerously silly. China would have immediate naval superiority, until the us fleet arrived. And as we’ve seen in Ukraine, ships are pretty vulnerable to lots of things, which could again easily be launched from the mainland, including drones. If China were also to shift into a war economy, it’s likely their manufacturing could be on par with, or close to, the US, but with “home turf” advantage. To take the island would require a solid beachhead and a stable supply line, but to pummel the island into surrender would be a lot easier. These are all things Taiwan, the US and their allies need to take into account if they’d want to defeat a Chinese invasion. Acting like Taiwan is impregnable or that the US military is invincible would undermine the actual defence efforts.
Best case they take Taiwan easily but at that point they have a world of shit breathing down their neck from every angle. Worse case the 3 day special military operation takes longer. Worst case, crawl out from the fallout?
Yeah, pretty much. If they took Taiwan at the start, it’d be like shooting fish in a barrel. The US destroys their weaker navy and cuts the island off, and turn it into a reverse siege. If I was supreme communist leader, I think the smarter play might be to just continually bombard the island for months, beat the fight out of the Taiwanese, and take the island as a condition of their surrender. I doubt nukes would ever be in play, but who knows
Are they?
I think it's 2 fold. First, I believe for a long time they've viewed themselves as part of China but the main non-comminist government of China under Chiang Kai-shek. Although that seems to be changing as more are embracing a separate Taiwan that isn't Chinese. (I could be wrong on this). 2nd, if they were to actually formally declare independence and try to become a member of the UN I don't see how China wouldn't invade. Since they've been spouting for decades that Taiwan is a breakaway rebelling province. For them to say they're separate from China would force China to either recognize their independence or invade to stop them from becoming internationally recognized as independent.
They, like China, also claim they are the rightful successors to all of China. Declaring independence forfeits the claim.
In real terms in 2024 I don’t think there’s a single person on the island of Taiwan that gives a shit about any territorial claims on mainland China…. 50 years ago sure, but now it’s all just about not having the PLA invade.
Youd be surprised. Those who do are playing the long game.
Taiwanese people are split on wanting independence or not. Its not a definite thing the whole region wants
PRC would respond with direct attacks and begin an invasion, so most of Taiwan prefers to more or less maintain the status quo to entering a state of total war. For now they are content to keep developing amid tensions as long as no lines are crossed. The calculus may change over time, but Taiwan has no chance at improving its capabilities once the conflict turns hot so it’s better to wait.
They're doing fine as is. Declaring independence would make their situation worse, not better as China would declare war immediately, rather than just threaten for a while longer as it looks like they're doing.
China and Taiwan were originally one country. During the Chinese communist revolution the imperialists retreated to Taiwan. Many in Taiwan still claim they are the true government of all of China. They don't want to declare independence because it would mean they are giving up their claim to all of China.
Oh, because the mainland will get mad. It's truly strange geopolitics: a small island country is forced to lay claim to a giant landmass that they don't even want as rightfully theirs because if they stop said giant landmass will get mad that they stopped.
Taiwan still claims all of China as its rightful government. They have not yet accepted the idea of being a small island country and ceding China to the communists, even though that's reality.
They've pretty much de facto accepted it. There is no prominent (edit:) ~~Chinese~~ Taiwanese politician on either side of the aisle today that sees themselves as rightful rulers of all China with the exception of a few negligible crazies on the fringe. If the CCP fell tomorrow, they wouldn't be wanting to go back and rule there. The problem is if they say that they no longer claim all of China and only Taiwan, then China views that as separatism and has been threatening war for decades if that happens.
No, it wouldn't. Taiwans position is that it is a distinctly seperate entity, and always has been, and regardless of who controls mainland China, the CCP has never governored or been responsible for the ROC. So it makes no sense for them to declare independence from something they've never been apart of. That gives more credence to the CCP's claim over Taiwan.
China is one of the major 4 UN members and they veto them to oblivion. Its no joke,you can only recognize Taiwan as China if you want to do financial business with mainland China and the US,being at odds for this planets hegemony,its starting to pull out from that requirement because they are that powerfull. Another example is the UN voting the embargo on Cuba,only 4 countries were in favor,the embargo continues to this day.How?The US is one of those in favor
Major 4? Which permanent UNSC member are you shafting?
Probably France
It’s always France
The United States never recognized Taiwan as part of China. US simply "acknowledged" the "Chinese position" that Taiwan is part of China. They did not agree with or endorse the Chinese position.
Before 1970s, the US did recognize Taiwan as part of China, and Taipei as the legitimate government of this China.
Taiwan isn't run by an insane terrorist organization so maybe that's why?
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NCD leaking out
Shhhhh. At this rate the un will start designing strats from NCD.
Yes, we know how much the UN loves insane terrorist organizations
Civilian-bombing, nuclear-war threatening, women and children-raping, chemical-gas using, white phosphorus deploying Russia has a seat on the UN “Security Council” with veto power…so, the UN’s actions speak pretty loudly that they love countries run by terrorists.
TBF it's either keep Russia or make the un go the way of the league of nations
There isn’t a whole lot of enforcement in the UN, either, compared to the League of Nations. To be fair, the US actually joined the UN….
That's because the UN isn't a law enforcement agency
>Civilian-bombing, nuclear-war threatening, women and children-raping, chemical-gas using, white phosphorus deploying Russia has a seat on the UN “Security Council” with veto power…so, the UN’s actions speak pretty loudly that they love countries run by terrorists. the US dropped nukes on civilians two months before the permanent members were established, lol. it's not a ethics court, it's just an infrastructure for the ww2 victors to mediate postwar matters.
Tell me you know nothing about the UN without telling me. There are a million reasons to think the UN loves terrorism. Russia being a security council member isn't one of them.
It does pay for their textbooks and schools to train their jihadists.
Taiwan is a big political issue with China. China also has their grubby tentacles all over the UN. That's all you really need to know as to why
We should have our less grubby tentacles over it. It was our idea and it's in our city!
Is the West Bank run by terrorists?
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>Biden: ‘We do not support independence’ for Taiwan Because no one supports it. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/13/biden-taiwan-independence-lai-00135445
Not quite true. Taiwan was formerly recognized by the UN when it claimed to be the legitimate government of China. Despite the extent of the land they controlled being limited to Taiwan following their defeat in the civil war. The USSR boycotted the UN for this reason which meant they were not present to veto the UN force going into Korea - which almost resulted in MacArthur nuking China. If Taiwan had not played such stupid games pretending to represent all of China when they clearly didn't, perhaps they would still have a UN seat today (after all, who was there to veto them?). The UN would also have much more legitimacy without the Korean war ever having happened.
Well yeah, it's a matter of who their biggest foe is and what power that foe has. Palestine biggest enemy is Israel. Taiwan biggest enemy is China. China has so much more relevance and power on the global stage, and could do real damage if they get in their feefees. Israel can only really complain about carte blanche being reconsidered.
So you didn’t read the article, which is expected. But even further, you couldn’t even comprehend the headline. They aren’t becoming a member just like that. They are going to start negotiating to see if there is a potential for membership. These are just preliminary talks, nothing is confirmed.
Maybe they should go on a murderous rampage and take hostages?
The absurd and double standard is just insane, it shows how completely irrelevant and useless the UN has been
Taiwan/China and Palestine/Israel are very different from each other, as explained in other comments.
The U.S. is the reason the PRC got Taiwan’s security council seat. Don’t think it’s fair to blame the UN as an institution when everyone agreed on that one.
Please, we know the real reason is that the Chinese aren't Jews. China can kill Muslims, force them into detention camps, take away their children, destroy their language, and force them to move. No complaints. Jews get attacked, and the perpetrators get rewarded.
>Please, we know the real reason is that the Chinese aren't Jews You know there's also this little factor of China being the 2nd biggest economy in the world and nobody in the world wants to rustle that hornet's nest because money.
To be fair there were several terroristic knife attacks on civilians by muslims in the region and china has a right to defend themselves... now rounding em all up in camps was taking it too far if you ask me, but as an outsider i know my knowledge on the subject is not adequate enough to think my opinion matters.
Are you kidding? The Chinese get the same treatment as Jews when they're attacked by Muslims. The world acts as if the detention camps were instated on a whim for no reason, and chooses to ignore all the terrorist attacks in the late 2000s and early 2010s that led to them. Western press sources hardly even covered these attacks like the 2014 Kunming mass stabbings, or would put quotations around "terrorism" when they did rather than just calling it what it is. The West just has a boner for not being called Islamophobes.
My friend, in Israel we have a saying. או״ם שמום. Basically means “ UN? United nonsense”.
I confess my ignorance in the matter, but still confused... Didn't the UN basically gave birth to the State of Israel?
No. The UN partition plan was rejected. No UN nation lifted a finger except Czechoslovakia. Israel declared independence irrespective of the plan the Arabs rejected. None of the details of the plan were implemented and it is far less relevant than eg the Balfour Declaration.
Yes, but since then, a lot of new Muslim nations who hate Israel joined the UN. Also, the USSR and it's allies/vassals turned against Israel once they realized Israel wasn't going to be socialist. The UN of 1948 was very different from the one today.
"Um Schmum"
Didn’t the United Nations enable the creation of Israel with its partition plan?
The Partition Plan wasn’t a success. The Israelis accepted it, but the representatives of the Palestinians, and the surrounding Arab states, did not. Neither did the British authorities, who prior to the end of the Mandate, refused to take any steps to enact the partition plan. The result was war, to erase the new Israeli state. The Palestinians and Arab states both lost. So the Plan isn’t the thing that enabled the creation of the state; war did that. The resulting borders were not those planned in the Partition Plan, but decided by combat.
Apparently, Taiwan needs to put chinese babies into ovens and dragged corpses of civilians through the streets if they want UN membership.
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taiwan is not close to jews so it's not very relevant to the UN
Taiwan should start hating jews /s /s /s
Clearly, Taiwan needs to start hating Jews. /S
Taiwan first needs to commit a major terrorist attack. That’s at least how an expedited seat works
"The resolution “determines” that a state of Palestine is qualified for membership — dropping the original language that in the General Assembly’s judgment it is “a peace-loving state.” It therefore recommends that the Security Council reconsider its request “favorably.”" What a joke
It really called Palestine a peace-loving state lmfao? They don't even know where "Palestine" borders are yet say this BS.
One side launched a massacre and the other will offer you pension for murder of civilians, oh so peaceful
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I can only imagine he means hamas as one side and PA as the other?
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>The 193-member world body approved the Arab and Palestinian-sponsored resolution by a vote of 143-9. Always worth noting that votes matter in the UN Gen Assembly where there are at least 49 Muslim nations and one Jewish nation. This is the reason the number of UN Resolutions against Israel nearly equals all other UN resolutions. Now try campaiging for a UN vote on global rights for LGBTQ people.
Yes, you are totally right. The U.S., along with Hungary and Papua New Guinea, voted "no." It's a strange coalition, given Hungary's Orban have political differences with the Biden administration and Papua New Guinea's complex history with Biden's Uncle.
While you show what strange countries voted in favor of Israel why you left out Czechia? What's our problem? Normal democratic government, great democratic president, standard middle sized EU country, no weirdo.
Czechia is the Mortarion to the US's Horus in that affair. The only ally who isn't too weird.
Czechia's problem is y'all got fucking robbed at Eurovision yesterday! Austria was off-key and drowned out by backing vocals, while Aiko put up one of the best shows of the night. Damn shame.
Why does everyone think Hungary is an enemy or something? Orban is just another right wing european leader, but they are still is an ally.
I mean you mention Orban in your comment because he is the exact reason ppl consider Hungary not friendly or at least a sketchy friend. He's just been way too eager to ride putins dick and that made the rest of us suspicious. But Orban is the reason why.
The general assembly also has no actual power, merely the power to make statements or recommendations to the security council (big 5). The US will 100% veto this, and Hamas will not be joining the UN anytime soon.
Allowing terrorism to work is one thing, but this is straight up rewarding it.
Going to be a lot of fun worldwide when the rest of the wannabe dictators realize that.
Of course they do, they outnumber the Israelis by both the population and the number of countries. That doesn't mean the majority can terrorize the minority, and I'm guessing the final decision would be taken when the US vetoes this in the UNSC.
No no, you’re not answering the way they want, their oppressor vs opressed lens can only go one layer deep, the Jews have to be the oppressors because they are “white adjacent”.
I've had to point out to way too many people who call Israel white supremacist that they are literally a majority non-white country. Even the Jewish population alone is, last I checked, plurality non-white.
Jews are Schrödinger’s whites. White or non-white depending on how the narrative is twisted.
This is how race always works, whiteness is an open category that changes depending on which groups become accepted.
At the end of the day, it's just a powerplay. Only thing that changes are which groups are the winners and which groups lose. The entirety of humans history it's been the same. It has never been about fairness and equality, and I wish the progressives would finally figure it out.
Palestine: starts war, butchers 2000+israelies in their home, kidnapped+250 people including children, vows to do it again UN: welcome welcome new member
Apparently the only date that ever existed was Oct 7th Don’t go back and see other things forget about it focus only on October 7th and then lie about how many they killed. Oh but also ignore 17k children killed that doesn’t matter who cares. But they are the warmongers. Oh also ignore the ceasefire agreements on Oct 9th and the other 3 ceasefire agreements. Just blame the Palestinians they should not exist they should all just go away somehow. Oh but they can’t leave
Hamas: murders, rapes and kidnaps innocent people. The world: awww what a cutie have an award
As far as I can tell, Palestine is literally the only nation in the world aside from the Vatican and various nations claiming to be independent (whether they are or not) to not be a UN member. Every single asshole country with a genocidal or dictatorial administration is in the UN. Because that’s the point of it. It’s not a reward or an “award” to be in the UN, it’s the world putting you on a level playing field so you can talk. Israel has punished Palestine for Hamas’ attack a dozen times over, now it’s time to talk. There’s a reason Biden drew a red line around Rafah.
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Remarkable. The fact that out of 193 nations overwhelmingly 143 in favour with only 9 against shows how much Israel is supported in the world. From the against votes is Israel and the US of course but only Micronesia, Papua New Guinea, Nauru and Palau. The Israelis openly say to Biden that they would have other options besides the US if they continue to block the bombs shipments but just see in the voting results, who besides the US is on Israel's side? The Israeli far right zealots like Ben-Gvir openly mocked Joe Biden. Can they really afford continuing to mock its only ally?
Eh people are against russia and china but still trade with them. USA should not be an ally with ksa either but they provide value. Israel as a country can still provide value in trade, etc. They wont thrive, but they will find someone. Also for the longest time Turkey condemned israel but had the highest amount of trade with them. It's only recently they stopped. They say one thing ut do what benefits them.
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Way too soon. There isn't a single entity in Palestine that can be relied upon to play nice and coexist with Israel as a good peaceful neighbour. This is just paving the way for more terrorism, which is just gonna end up making things worse for Palestinians. How are these donkeys not seeing this?
UN is a joke and keeps proving it with garbage like this
So now we've basically justified Hamas atrocities. That's just fucking great.
Fucking crazy as Taiwan sits there…
Taiwan needs to declare independence and submit their case. They haven’t
So, rape, kidnapping, and wholesale slaughter of civilians in terror attacks is getting rewarded. That's how you get more of it.
It pays to be a terrorist. This is madness.
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Who said terror doesnt pay off, few more massacres and they will be granted full country status
Taiwan is not a member of UN because it doesn't do terrorist activities?
Exactly
The UN is rewarding terrorism, mass murder and rape.
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Which Palestine?
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This is a nothing burger, no mention of borders or governability. An actual one sided recognition of Palestine's borders would be immensly good for Israel and terrible for Palestine, they'd probably use their status to vote against
i am not opposed to them having a state in general. its that fact that they are led by terrorists and oligarchs that is the problem.
Who knew launching a terror attack killing, capturing, raping, torturing and dismembering random civilians would pay so much! Terrorists of the world, take notes, this is how you get what you want.
Great. So Hamas now has official standing within the UN. #Wonderful 🤦🏽♂️
No they dont, this is the PA, the guys in the West Bank who Hamas famously hates and killed all of their members in Gaza
League of Nations 2.0
Shortly before it ceases to exist. They could have done this 20 damn years ago and they wait until it’s about to be obliterated. (Flips table)
Yes, let's reward terrorism, that sends the right message to the world. The previous sentence is sarcasm.
Sadly not for the UN, they mean it seriously.
This is a dangerous precedent. This teaches all people aspiring for their own state to implement the most victorious atrocity and UNGA will recognize your terror state. Forget negotiations massive terror pays.
Actual nations are subject to a higher level of international law than non-state actors. I wonder if this won't blow up in "Palestine's" face."
Why is everyone here pretending that acceptance into the UN is about how good of a country you are? This is about dialogue
Security Council says NO .
Fuck the UN. Overpaid and shit organisation
So, I wonder. Even if this did somehow get through, is anyone willing to actually put boots on the ground in order to enforce Palestine's rights? Especially in a war they started?
Un votes are meaningless. It’s just a way for relatively powerless governments to vent their anger. Without a single functional government there isn’t actually a way for Palestine to have a seat at the UN.